Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

whenever you are. Good evening everyone and welcome to planning and zoning. And tonight we have a work session. Um and so I guess we need a roll call vote. Commissioner Borne, Commissioner Hoffrey here. Commissioner Con here. Commissioner Clayton here. Commissioner Deppler. Commissioner Jackson. Commissioner Rubis here. Chair Batty. Council member Marshall present. And Mayor Ger. So, do we have a quorum and do we need one? We do have a quorum. Okay. Good. Okay. Thank you very much. All right. We have uh would anyone like to approve the work session minutes from April 7th? And I have a first motion to approve. Okay. Do I have a second? Jim, Mr. Rubis seconds. Uh, can we have a a voice vote? All in favor? All opposed? Abstain. Okay. Mr. Marshall abstains. And Chair Batty just walked in the door and so I think that um I'll let him take over. So, Mr. Brutish, would you like to speak? Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you all for coming a little early tonight. We know it's an imposition and certainly a 5:15 hour doesn't work well

or great for those that have deployment elsewhere and have to get here during rush hour. So we do appreciate it very much. Tonight we are going to have our second work session on signage. for consideration tonight. If you'll recall from our first work session which was held in April, Randy Burkehead of Reed and Burrhead Lighting Design was here and kind of gave us an overview of electronic message centers, some of the things that the industry is doing. After that work session, Mr. Newberry and I met with Mr. Burquette and another employee of Reed Burquette Lighting Design, Allison Todd, both who are in attendance tonight. and we went through a series of discussions about electronic

message centers and that's where Mr. Burquette and Miss Toddle focus the discussions for the most part made the assumption and it isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion that if we were to have electronic message centers what is the best approach to regulate them in what I consider a dark environment of wildwood generally and so that's kind of the process that we employed to get to the point tonight where the presentation is going to be provided. It is an assumption that we are going to have electronic message centers. It's certainly not a given and from that perspective, Mr. Burretta will be providing you some information he thinks is in his opinion and Miss Todd's opinion intricral if we do it. Also, while this has been ongoing with the department of planning and the consultant, our economic development committee has been discussing electronic message centers and they came up with a list of items they would like this planning and zoning commission to consider and that's part of the memorandum that was provided for tonight's meeting. A key element of that particular recommendation from the economic development committee is that it be limited to a certain type of use that has taxing authority. And that taxing authority defines them generally as fire districts, school districts, municipal governments such as Wildwood, and any entity that can tax residents, property owners for their services. Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. Did you say that the economic Could you repeat again? They want the signs the electronic me message boards

limited to the taxing public entities with taxing authorities. And who wants that limited to them? The economic development committee of city council. Thank you. Sorry. No. And please ask questions. And that's eight members of the 16 member city council. And so they've been analyzing this particular issue as well. So from the perspective of the department, you have a consultant information that'll be described tonight. You have a recommendation from the economic development committee of city council. And along with that, the department has provided background from past discussions relative to electronic message centers that were not supported and never came to fruition or became part of any regulation of the city. So you have three sources of information and ultimately the department based upon your questions and feedback tonight will prepare a recommendation for your consideration as soon as July. At least that's the intent. If there's a lot of questions that can't be answered tonight that may be delayed, but certainly we'd like to proceed forward. And then before we conclude tonight, I do want to go over those sign regulations that I mentioned that have been kind of coming to us from different sources, but more of the traditional type of signage. And with that and the chair's permission, I'll invite Mr. Berketh to the podium. Quick question. Go ahead. when you the economic development group and city council recommended the use probably in those instances or businesses are within a taxing district or authority. So that means that a religious facility would not be included. That's correct sir.

Thank you, uh, commissioners, council member. Good to see you again. Try not to put you to sleep with nerdy items here tonight, but yeah, I got it. Thank you. So, uh, as Joe pointed out, technically we're going to be talking about electronic message centers. Um, EMC is the jargon we kind of use in the industry in the signage industry. So, um, but there are others could just call them signs if you want to. We're going to talk about some the nature of these elements and focus a bit on how they might um, be used in Wildwood and what are the pluses and minuses of those things. Obviously, we're not making that decision tonight, nor am I involved in that, but I want you to uh, understand how these operate basically. and their strengths and weaknesses and how you might um want to take that into account. So with that first of all you all can uh see the screen is that right? Okay just quick TOC here the types of things we're talking about I'm u going to try to keep my remarks to uh 20 minutes or so and then full scale uh questions. Having said that, I guess it's all right to get questions during this, but if you think it's something you might forget otherwise, that would be fine. Okay. Well, as I was saying, uh, EMC, electronic message centers, uh, the definition there, I don't hope you don't mind. I'm not going to read a lot from slides, but this one I will. A sign that utilizes computergenerated messages or some other electronic means of changing copy. These signs include displays using incandescent and fluorescent lamps as well as LEDs, LCDs, which are liquid crystal displays and even flipper

matrices if you've ever seen those before. The little sign boards used them in used to use them in baseball stadiums and such. And um so this is the basic definition from the industry. You can see a couple of examples there. As we get into this, I want to little talk a bit about the usage of these boards. And uh not going to do a deep dive into how they can be used, but we'll uh talk about the common uses. And I'm sure you'll come up with questions at some point about perhaps other uses or maybe uses you don't want to see. These next couple of slides, I may have had them in the LA last time. I think we were just talking in house with Joe Travis, but there are this happens to show physically in the sketch a billboard, but the the basic concept of signage light or lighting for signage uh dwells on uh visibility of course, but also output and intensity. So you see here um a couple of nerdy terms there. In intensity is also called candle power in our industry. We don't care use candles much anymore, but candelas is the is the uh uh the use the term we use. Um in this case, a sign is going to produce uh a visible uh message. And we're going to talk specifically about electronic ones, but even if it was a billboard or any kind of display, that sign to be seen must have light at night especially. And of course, we'll talk a little bit about daytime, too, but um it has to have a certain amount of brightness to be seen. And one of our biggest concerns with u electronic message centers is not having too much light or improper light in some areas. If you've been to I mentioned

this, I think in my remarks last time, you go to a big city, you might see large billboards. If you go to uh uh to Chicago or maybe the best example uh New York's Time Square, you see a lot of these message centers. But the sign produces whether it's uh self luminous or whether it's illuminated like that we've had for many many years. It's not uh the illumination that's on the surface. It's how much comes back. It's if it's a black sign, you're going to get very little return. If it's a very white billboard, in some case it might be much brighter. And there's two ways we think about this and how do we um there are other ways but two that are in current practice in this industry. And what do we see and how can it be measured? In the case of light being emitted by a signage uh surface whether again self-propagated or reflected light it reaches the human eye at some point assuming you're in the field of view and that sign uh at that same point can we can measure how much light the quantity of light as well as the quality if that can be necessary in some cases color and so forth. uh some of those things won't be won't be readily used perhaps in these applications. And there are two ways to um satisfactorily quantify how much light is on a surface of a sign. In this case, you'll see something there called a foot candle meter. We all I was going to bring mine tonight, but I left it I left it inside my my office desk. But you've seen them. There are many kinds of of illuminance meters. We call them foot candle meters I guess to the the ones who don't do this every day. And it measures how much light is incident on a surface. So if you're looking at my face and someone said, "Well, how much light

you can see me?" I could take a meter and put that in front of my face and I could say I have 10 foot candles on my face and that's how you see me. Same with signs. So in this case, I'm going to come back to this in a moment. You could with your human vision turn that source around and face the light as it comes toward you. And I'm going to compare that with the other measure of being being able to uh uh quantify this. So a foot candle meter can be used where you're viewing something and your how much light that produces in your eyes. uh it's certainly more than just the sign but what component of that sign lighting uh value will be it can be measured with a conventional foot candle meter or illuminance meter. There's a second way of this is done in our industry and that's using what's called candelas per square meter or knits. Some of you probably remember that from the last time around and I know it was caused to chuckle, but basically what this does, it's an instrument uh that has a onederee uh field of view and it's you you aim it at any surface you would like and it can tell you how bright in in nits or candelas per square meter how bright that surface is. It's one degree. So the further you are away, the more of the area you actually illuminate or you actually measure. But that is another way of quantifying how much light is in the field of view. Those two we're going to talk about why we feel and I think um so far in our discussions feel one is superior for our use here in Wildwood in most most uh cities of this size. We'll get into that. Uh I'm not going to have you read all these tonight. uh and I'm just going to talk uh quickly about

them. Uh the first one, one of the things that we'll want to do with um excuse me, EMC's is to establish uh some measure of what's enough light and how much is too much light. In the case of of uh the criteria for this kind of uh project, this kind of sign, you can see the one on the left as I face hopefully as you face it as well. The one on the left, you can see the sign looks quite bright. uh concerning the uh concerning the surrounding. And in fact, chances are that would be glary to somebody maybe driving down the street in this area or down the highway and or it may be an interesting look, but it might be more light than one would need to see it. And perhaps more importantly, we don't want to uh introduce glare and other ways u squinting and shielding your eyes and that sort of thing. Uh the one on the right hand side on the other hand might suffer from the opposite problem. Uh that that surface that's illuminated just below where it says Parkside Dental Team. That surface is actually much brighter than the one on the left. However, the ambient light in this area, including the reflected light from snow, washes out that visibility quite a bit. So, one could argue that's not bright enough. And that's the uh sort of the uh the most difficult thing about sign lighting is how do you um uh react or how do you um use two different conditions? How do you deal with those going from daytime to nighttime? We're going to talk about that for a few moments in it. So uh what we're trying to find out here is not only I think we all would agree that this can happen but how do we control that is are there limits? So if we look at um um limits for example the difference between in this case an off and solid message measurements uh EMC the measurement criteria shouldn't exceed about 3/10en

of a foot candle. Now, there's been a lot of research done in signage, and this is using that foot candle meter I was talking about, which I would say that anyone in this room could go out tonight, have an illuminance meter, in a matter of 90 seconds, you'd know how to measure how much light is coming off that sign. And in nighttime settings in uh cities such as Wildwood and actually more uh remote uh areas uh the light level of 3/10en of a foot candle had been has been used now for about 12 or 14 years as a standard for how much additional light is propagated toward the viewer in using foot candles or illuminance. I'm not going to talk anymore right now about the individual uh measurements of small areas of that sign. So, let me just go to the next one. You'll notice the difference here. Uh well, let me go back before the one on the left. Um I we could argue there that sign it's it's dusk, but it's uh the sign's not bright enough. Um here you have a bright background and now the sign has to become brighter or else you don't see it. on the right hand side there the the sign is not bright enough even though it's actually darker and there are ways of of computing what's appropriate in a given in a given viewing uh situation and you'll see that here in a moment or two once again there what we'd like to have happen here is that it dims from day to night so during the day uh driving down the street here we might have as much as five or 6,000 foot candles uh in the line of sight from the sun, the sky, and and basically sky brightness. And if you had a lum um sign that had very low output, chances are it would be washed out completely and you wouldn't be able to read it. And

you start to see that on the right hand side just in a uh twilight situation. So uh typically the way this change is made from day to night is to use dimming or presets. And I'm going to show you both of those in a moment. And basically it means the sign would have two lives. One during the day that communicates information, messages that would have a certain degree of brightness that would fit into the field of view comfortably. Same thing at night, a different light level, a different u quantity of light would be available. Same sign simply by adding or subtracting light from that sign. So the sign doesn't the message doesn't change if it's saying Excuse me. If it's saying pancake breakfast tomorrow 1:30 and you see it in the evening, it has the brightness. You can read it easily. It's legible. It's not glary. Uh the next day, you see it again, but it's much much brighter, but the contrast is such that it's very comfortable there as well. That's the key. You can overburden your nighttime environment by not doing not having a proper sign that reg regulates the the amount of light used to convey the message. And today, frankly, there's no reason you shouldn't do that. Uh someone could say, "Well, I'm not going to spend the extra 300 bucks for onboard automatic dimming for my sign. I can cut that corner." Well, you can't or you shouldn't, especially in communities like yours. Now, let's look at this a little. You might say, "Is it really that easy?" And I guess it's not really that easy. Uh the meter I was talking about, it's what I showed I mentioned uh earlier in the conversation. Uh it allows you to measure the amount of light coming from the sign. And the way that you say, "Well, how do I know I have too much or

too little?" The way it is measured is what is it like with the light on, the message center on, and without the message center on. And you divi you basically find out you can't be above 3/10en of a foot candle in dark dark what's called a dark adapted conditions. Your eyes are are are adapted to much lower light levels. If you have that same sign I just mentioned and we were in New York, you the sign wouldn't be nearly bright enough and so that doesn't work and then it's typically done with photo cells and we can we'll talk we'll touch on that briefly. Let me tell you what this means. This can be done by uh the teams here at Wildwood that can take those measurements. We take these measurements a lot for other communities uh from time to time and uh they're very straightforward and repeatable. They're things that can be uh uh well defined and enforced if you will. So in this case we're talking about the fact that that meter is is brought out to the field and it's put on a tripod at a certain distance and I'll tell you what that means. depending on the size of the reader board, in this case the EMC. And right now, we're currently saying, I believe, uh, here in, excuse me, I need here in Wildwood, the maximum square footage of signage area is 50 square feet. Isn't that correct? Yes. So whether it's uh how that 10 that 50 square feet happens is up to the the people who are designing the sign. But uh that's the maximum here. You'll see a couple of images as we go through here. Now quickly uh the first thing must be done in order to take these you you uh find out what the total square footage of the

electronic sign is. In this case close to 50 square ft I believe. Um, and then in order to measure these in illuminances, the square footage is uh has to do with how far you must be away from the sign. So a sign that's maybe only 25 square ft of luminous area, well, you need to be closer to do those measurements. The further you get away, the more area you can use as the uh the basic ambient uh illuminance. hoping this is um terrain here. I'll just show you this. Uh you can see if your sign is 20 square feet uh then total area of the sign is 25 square ft then you need to be 50 ft away from that sign before you do your baseline measurements on and off. So if you're in a fairly wooded area, you happen to come upon a a small church or community center, I'm using terms here. Not sure who's going to be in this net and who isn't, but uh if it's a fairly low ambient, if you add up to 3/10en of a foot candle or higher than that, it's going to look quite bright and be unacceptable in most settings such as this. Conversely, if you're in town center, uh that might be different, but mostly in the communities here in Wildwoods, uh we're looking I think you're looking at 3/10 of a foot candle is a maximum measurement of the illuminance. You can see some of the other square footages there. So, uh and it's also important to look at them as completely solid white at night. You can imagine a very white screen versus let's say a dark screen with with mid mid-grain levels mid-level uh uh text. You have to look at the worst condition fully white with uh with with a small amount of text. You want the worst case condition. You don't know

what people will do with their signs. There are ways to limit the amount of light that these can uh generate and I'm going to talk about that during daytime here momentarily. the measurement of the brightness I was mentioning. Uh I'm not again going to go through these, but there's several steps, but it's quite straightforward. Once you get it up on a tripod, uh and they you turn it off, you take the baseline measurements, you turn it back on, you look at worst case scenario, all white background and so forth, and that must then be below 3/10. and that gives them their uh the the amount of output they're allowed to use. And you can preset signs like this now. Very common. Very common. You're going to see something here that's one step beyond that, which is now becoming very common. And I think it ultimately should be in communities like uh Wildwood. As I mentioned about um daytime and nighttime conditions and during the night you must have you you would use far less night light in order to communicate than in during the day you would need far more light and intensity in order to communicate that same message. All other things considered equal signage is now available to do that. Uh the techni technology is now available to do that automatically based on uh time of day. uh it can be done with astronomical time clock. It can be done with photo cells and several other techniques which the science uh the science community is embracing now. So it would automatically provide less light at night as you start to slip in past the twilight and into an evening. The the message may still be the same but it now uh is appropriately scaled visually for the environment.

So for an example uh I wanted to show you this happens to be a graph a quick graph we did of u March 21st the spring solstice and equinox not solstice sorry but nonetheless you can see if you look at the far left uh 1:00 a.m. in the morning 12 beginning at midnight 1:00 a.m. morning and so forth. If you happen to have a sign that is communicating at all hours, it would be at the very lowest permitted illuminance at nighttime. And as I mentioned, 3/10en of a foot candle. Not very much light. As you move along and it comes 4:00, 5:00, finally 6:00 a.m. and the sun now becomes come is um above the horizon. And now in order to see that message, you're going to need a greater output from your side. In this case, there are two ways. We were just showing two ways of doing this. One is to transition from night to day slowly. It's almost we we call it fade adjustment. We do it a lot. I think we even have faders on the lighting controls here in this room where you would hit the button, it just doesn't go off. It fades maybe over five or 10 seconds to darkness if you're going to see something. In this case, the sign can dim from its lowest lowest output to full output or whatever daytime full output is. And that's what happens at the beginning of the day. And then finally at the end of the day, the opposite happens. It begins to go into night. And so the daytime illuminance begins to uh fall away and reaches that 3/10 at the end of the hour. Now, I'll be the first to admit probably only one in 10 of the controlled signs are doing this right now, but there it is much more available. U what a lot of them are doing is strictly a photo cell. And what that means is at some point maybe

halfway between 6:00 a.m. and 7 a.m. bang, it happens. It changes from the bright or the dim to the bright and vice versa. That's something we can control or can can talk about in in more detail later. We've even seen that folks are having curfew times. Just put up the same screen with an additional graphic. You can see, well, why have the uh the sign with the uh pancake breakfast glowing at night from 1:00 a.m. to 4 in the morning? Is it important that two or three people might miss the pancake announcement? So, that's those are just decisions. Should there be curfews? Should there be as absolute darkness as possible even with these signs and bring them down to zero at that point? The one thing that my this is my guess but in most communities it's nice to go through those measurement techniques I mentioned but more often than not maybe you don't have control over a sign. Somebody says there's a sign up on the uh XYZ u expressway and it looks too bright and who owns it? Well, they don't even live here in town. You can take these measurements without uh having to have people there to turn lights on and off and so forth. And literally you would quite you go there and you cover either you cover it up worst case and then you take it off and you look at the difference. That seems like a silly thing to talk about, but we find that that happens maybe one out of three times when someone is um someone complains or feels that a sign is too bright. Uh it's very difficult for them to uh uh get somebody well nobody knows how to operate this. And so uh that's just something that we would have to include I think in what we do here. Excuse me. Uh before I go into these these next

two slides, I'm I'm almost done. Um are there any any qu questions? I'm going to go back one. Any questions on the ones we are just started from. I'll just acknowledge. Yes. Uh thank you, Mr. Burquette. Uh by the way, I was looking at your portfolio. It's very impressive and uh I uh you know just admiring what you do there because I it's just amazing what lighting could do to a structure, the exterior of a building. And so um just wanted to point that out, but I was thinking of it. I'm glad you call it the curfew time. Um because that was a thought I had that if we were going to go down the path, we would probably want to just have a curfew given just kind of how dark the area is at night. Um and my concern is more the you know the how bright it would shine to any you know neighboring structure or building or you know home. So, do you do you have any examples of like reasonable curfew times? Like I I was toying around with the idea is it 9:00 in the evening till 6:00 in the morning or something like that or have you seen other cities do something like that? Yeah, that's that's a good question and I think it it does dispend depends on the community. Uh much of what we see is almost everything we see is before midnight. Um, there are some who want to do a 10 o'clock during the week and maybe midnight on weekends. That's not unusual. Uh, and but that can be, you know, that that's something that you might it would vary depending on the area. In some areas of Wildwood, I could see 7:00. It's dark. I don't want to see anything. But, uh, realistically, people still go out to dinners and they're doing this and that. So, we find that 10:00 is a pretty good cut off. Midnight

on weekends is also good. I've I've heard that a lot. Right. And then you did bring up and I think also that's I think a key part that fader whether it it it it works like with the photo cell or if the technology today can support more of that gradual fading where it's not obvious. I think that would have to be a key essential part of it. Ideally, uh it would be unfair to say, "Oh, and that stuff doesn't cost anymore." Well, it does. it. It's not a $10,000 thing, but if you want to have those kinds of controls innate to the to the sign and not have to worry about doing it yourself, there are some 10 years ago people were uh dim it down a little bit, Charlie. And they don't do that anymore. It's done automatically. And even the crudest of them does have a photo cell and there' just be a high and a low, day and night. And they just pick halfway in between. Okay, let's switch over to the night. And if you want to make an error, you don't want it to be too glary. If somebody misses one, if it um misses one of the messages because it wasn't activated soon enough, then that's okay. You air on the side of caution. Well, I think the first time I noticed that the technology had this, I had noticed that probably on one of the highways driving, I saw a billboard and I think the photo cell had gone defective because at night it was just so bright. Yes. Compared to what uh you typically saw. So that's when I realized there is a difference and probably does that. They they do have options for uh default. If one doesn't work, you certainly don't want highway brightness at noon uh in the middle of your evening. So, it would default to the worst case in some depending how you look at it to the lowest output. So, you'd still maybe have what you need at night, but during or yeah, at night you wouldn't see it

during the day in that case, but it can be repaired. And photo cells, uh right now, as I was saying, most of them just say high, low, that's all we do. soon as it hits this illuminance level, we're going to switch that way and as we get to the evening, we're going to switch back here. Yeah. The rest of it is is I think you're about to cover it. I think that's the change how it how frequently it changes and all. Yes. Yeah. I apologize for coming in late, but I I did see that uh as well. There was one thing in my notes I didn't want to mention. Just a couple sentences. Um most people say, "Wow, wow, that's a bright sign." You're you're annoyed by it. Fine. Well, if you're in a dark adapted state, we've in state, not not the state of Missouri, dark a dark adapted buys. If you're on a fair fairly dark road, and you see a very bright, we've seen it with headlights all the time, bright sign, it takes your eyes um anywhere from 3 to 10 seconds just to get back to where you were. So, if there happen to be or a rabbit or a deer in front of you just beyond the sign, your eyes, they close because of the brightness. It's just human physiology. So, if it's real bright and you're doing this and it's too bright, you get past it, all of a sudden the dark isn't quite as uh visible as it was. Okay. Sorry, I just went to that. So, on my very first note, it's about the eye thing that you talked about last week. And so what is there a you talk about these.3 ft candles. What is the sweet spot for the eye being able to readjust quickly as you're driving down Highway 109? Yeah. Dark. Uh, one thing I'm going to show you toward the end are what we call lighting zones, which you don't quite have here in Wildwood yet,

but that just give me the early on. I talked about uh the Time Square being so bright there, your eyes are closing down because otherwise you'd be squinning the whole night. In this case, you drive some of these times I've drive into Wildwood and I'm just, it's remarkable. There's some areas that are really beautifully dark and quiet and uh so that that 3/10 of a foot candle is typically a high watermark. Uh but in uh innately darkened areas, it's less than that. So it is a sliding scale. Not so much that okay, you're 217 foot. It's not that. There's really typically two rungs on that lower ladder. one in u what's called an LZ1 area and LZ1 I'll show you that in a minute and uh that can be even lower then in the output that's a good question thank you other questions if not let me keep going there'll be more time I don't have a lot more material so I'll be able to get away okay so these I have two slides here that are a lot of information here and we're not we don't have to dig down into these quickly but there are some other things we have to take into account. I gave you the big picture. So let's look at it at these. So the top one the rate of message changes what's right, what's wrong, what's uh uh what's bothersome, what is distracting and so forth. Uh and frankly there's not um a complete sense consensus about that but um there are some guidelines. A 10-second minimum time intervals for messages is a good one. Uh it's the display is there. You're not trying to read things that are changing every few seconds. The the display should be

readable but not having to catch back and forth to see it. Um instantaneous message changing. At first you might think, "Oh, that's strobe strobe effect." But it literally is instantaneous and there's not even a change in brightness or in um the message that would that would even get people's attention. So you'll see the ones I've seen quite a few in the St. Louis area like that and they work very well. Uh now you don't you don't you don't want to do those every second or two because then it would become bothersome. Uh 3 to 4 seconds for public service info, time, temperature. I don't know whether that would even be considered. I think we've talked about probably not in this first pass but uh they're used for a lot of other things and those messages need to come often are coming faster or they're uh what what you will want allow them to do that'll be a big discussion. the messages, the size of the of the message. Uh, of course, this the size of the signs being allowed here are not enormous. And type face, you can put them really tiny if you want to, but no one will be able to read them. So, there are guidelines for that. It's well documented. So, uh, if someone's coming up over the hill and they have just a few seconds to read something, you'll the the owners want to know what size type face you'll need in order to get that. as well as contrast. Having a a black letter on a white background, that's pretty good contrast, but having a maybe a red background or a red letter on a pink background, it's harder to see. So, there's a lot of visibility issues, but there's good guidel guidance for that available. Uh flashing, animations, movements. I don't think any of that's going to be allowed, but I don't know. A lot of communities we deal with say, "No, we don't want any of that. I don't want any scrolling." And uh uh in other effects sometimes they say well maybe on the main drag we do that. So that's

something that we can talk about some other time but that's uh the good news and bad news of these they can do almost anything you can think think up better or for worse. Who's going to you who's going to use EMC signs? I'm not asking that question but that's some the questions you'll have to ask. I know that there was a comment earlier about churches and had something to do with potential taxing and so forth. Those are the sorts of things of course aren't in our um our world, but um they are used quite a bit by schools and civic centers and things like municipal buildings and buildings like this even. I do want to really point out this one at the very top day and night. So think about this. Set the maximum screen output from the nighttime condition. So let's say we have the sign and at night in a area in one of your more rural areas or or quiet areas and it looks great. All right. However, the daylight thing is going to come up. So one option is to use a photo cell that simply does a dayight changeover. So you wait and wait. You don't want it to be too bright. If you're coming out of the daylight and into the darkness, you don't want to wait till 15 minutes of glare. You're going to want to knock it down earlier. And those can all be preset with the photo cell. Photo cell can be as as tight as you want to. And um we find that it's better to miss a message or two than to have one that's just way too bright and glary and you get complaints about them. Uh a second option is an astronomical time clock. uh which would initiate uh the display levels for nighttime and it would uh based on the the day of the year it would react where

uh let's just say it's I don't know 10 minutes before full twilight or 10 minutes before darkness uh uh they're different uh terms for those but uh you could do that with just nothing but a time clock internal time clock. Option three, transition a setting, maybe 30 to 60 minute fade rate, which we talked about earlier. Uh, then you'd have probably perfect visibility for that hour. Not perfect, but I mean is let's just say the most discernable uh visibility by doing that. Make its very slow fade rate. No one you don't you you could sit there and watch for it and watch for it. You wouldn't see it fading. Yes. on on option two. I'm just thinking about like how in the winter so often around here you get really cloudy overcast a days and even though sunset is like 4:45 or 5:00 it is pretty dark at 4 4:30. If you're on an astronomical clock for that hour, would it look overly bright? Potentially. It it could be, but you don't have to. You can be more conservative in when you turn it down. And I I we t tend to lean that way. I'd rather have somebody miss something or what is that? And as opposed to being distracted in in a negative way. So yes, that can happen. Even on a sunny day, it could be uh thunderstorms rolling in at that time and it might be almost dark dark. There'll be times when it just won't work you want it to. in those cases, would it be better if it were on the photo cell? I guess I think so. Yeah, they both can work. Yeah, I'm just asking. Yeah, I was thinking I think photo cell makes it the easiest because I worry about all the installation that

forgets to change the time zone Pacific to central or I don't know if these clocks sync up and then all of a sudden you've got a sign that's completely misaligned with the time. So, so it seems like photo cell just takes care of all those photo cells has the fewest num the fewest number of working parts so to speak. It's just a cell that ceases how much illuminance is now can they get broken and yeah there are ways of that happening too but I think that takes care of like the scenario that uh the the chair brought up if we have that or maybe we get a solar eclipse and uh you know it'll take care of that too I bet if we have those the photos See if you think one of those hits here. Um, good. That was it that was a good question. What was there any more on that particular subject? Okay. EMC commercial non-commercial applications. That's not really part of this discussion, I don't think. Um, but if it does come to be, it's some people are going to want it. So, it's just a matter of uh what the guidelines will be for that. Um, display heights I believe are also limited to 10 feet total, right? Yeah. So, uh, a sign could be uh could be 50 square feet and but 10 ft in the air. It might be even it can be on pedestals even as long as it's we actually define monument signs to avoid them being on a pylon or poles. They have to be on a base adhere to grade. Yeah. Okay. Good. Thanks Joe. You probably told other considerations current int the current intent is to include not to include um commercial settings and town centers and uh and if that's the case at

least in first pass then those they're going to unfortunately bring up some things that will u we may have to have yet a couple of other layers to this. But for most of Wildwood, I don't think that's the case. Um, I'm going to talk to the second thing there, proximity to sensitive L lighting zones that are not allowed. And in some areas where it is inherently dark, um, there's you probably should not need that kind of sign or use that. It's almost better to have a retrof reflective sign that your maybe your headlights uh provide the uh or you can put a much lower illuminance on those nighttime areas, those inherently dark areas. I think that it's amazing how bright a tenth of a foot candle could be. How um remember when I was a kid, I used to squint at the uh at the uh full moon in laying out in a field in a sleeping bag with my friends and oh but you can read. So the point is there'll be areas in your town your city that um will use should use a lower threshold and we can that can be defined. I mentioned lighting zones. Uh this is not really to talk about lighting zones because that's a different issue I think for your overall master plan perhaps. Currently, lighting zones um are divided into five categories. You see them there, LZ0 to LZ4. Uh there's going to be a one more of these. LZ0 right now is really just for national parks. The kinds of restrictions, uh you couldn't even use them here in very little area for even in Wildwood.

But they're bringing in one that's uh slightly less severe than LZ0. Let me just show you. And you're not going to I'm not going to have you read that, but you can see LZ012. And just talking about Wildwood in general, if they use the newer LZ0 with the asterisk for dark communities, inherently dark communities, not not Yoseite or Yellowstone, but uh Wildwood. Then there will be an LZ zero asterric or whatever it's going to call. And then Z1 and Z2. I'll just show you one. So, here's the current LZ0. Areas where the natural environment will be seriously and adversely affected by lightning um includes distributing the biological disturbing the biological cycles of flora and fauna and detracting from human enjoyment and so forth. Maybe I think it'd be nice to feel that Wildwood has moments like that in places and that's great, but I think uh some of this is too just the language is too striking. So they're they're coming up with an LZ this LZ0 asterric which would fit well in about twothirds of Wildwood I think. And here are the others. The LZ1 which is called low ambient where lighting might adversely affect floor and fauna or disturb the character of the area. uh the vision of human resonance and users adapted to low light levels and so forth. And then there's this third one, LZ2, which is doubles the the 20 candelas per square meter you see there. And this one is probably most of Wildwood. um the areas that are down toward the the main town uh center city areas of human activity where the vision of human residents and users is adapted to moderate light levels and they can be typically used for safety, security, convenience and so forth. So I think

there's a chance as you move forward and this does have impact on signage and uh that is where you can use signage and still meet the lighting zone narratives that will curb fit very well for Wildwood. Yeah, guess it's just a wish we all had that far left and we've been looking at zoning districts and so forth, not doing any work here per se, but it's always I've always been fascinated at how much of your community is is still pretty good, pretty pristine and hope we can keep it that way at night. I think that's it for prepared material. Uh other questions, discussions whether you have uh questions. Uh see there's other names on the wall. I know there's other people there. Ju just out of curiosity um what kind of cost would be entry level for a signage? Where where do you begin to get the signage that would meet the parameters at the like what the mayor has discussed? You know, that's a very good question. I'm afraid I can't I can't tell you. I don't I we don't do a lot of signage work and when we do it's part of a bigger project and we we're not we're not specifying signs and so forth. Be happy to provide that uh the next week or so and give you some spot levels so you get a sense of in other words what what is um onoff photo cell only for 50 square feet versus um astronomical time clock with midpoint set point and and high point. So, uh, we'll see what we can provide. Good question. Thank you, Mayor Garano. Yeah. Do, um, cities get into the specifics like what types of

fonts are used or sizes? And, and again, you may have covered this. I apologize if you did, but I just was wondering because I think when we talk about our signage like over a business, we have some specific requirements. So, I'm wondering if we need to think about that if we go down the path of entertaining this with electronics. It's a good question. I I think life safety issues are dictated by on signs, of course, like a stop sign. You can't have STOP really small. No one's going to see it. You're going to run the stop sign. So that stuff is code. But when you're when you go to message boards, uh unless unless they're switching over to an emergency transmission, um there are I don't think there's a lot of demands. However, there are guidelines for distance viewing distances and so forth. So beyond that, um uh we have a couple folks in our um comm community in our firm that have uh helped write those ordinances. I think we have some of that information if that might be use useful to you. But yes, type face and you don't want gothic maybe and or different types or script and people do that because they think it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where I I worry about if we don't have guidelines that could be kind of uncontrolled. Yeah. You could at the very least you could say recommended because you don't want to well I shouldn't say this. I wouldn't want to micromanage people's uh you know signs that should it be giant letters should it be small but I don't know do you um off the top of your head if you if you can recall do you know what cities um you know again the top of what comes to mind have done a real good job with what we're trying to accomplish here yeah there aren't there aren't a lot of there aren't a lot of them here in Missouri unfortunately uh there's quite

a few in Arizona California, we can send you some of the we've got single page uh synopsis of how they've chosen to to handle their signage and other things in some cases. Yeah, I think that if we're going to entertain this for Wildwood, uh we're probably going to be at the forefront in the area of like trying to make sure it's a controlled environment with the signage and and again very limited to where we probably would allow that uh use. Okay. Uh, Council Member Marshall. Yeah. A couple questions. The 50 square f foot is 225 ft facing each way, not one 5x10. Actually, it the 50 square foot size limitation can be a double face sign. So 50 on one side, 50 on the other. Is that the average size we see up and down the road? Those that seems awfully large. No, primarily through the commercial districts, the C8 plan commercial district. We usually limit it to about 30 square feet. Yeah, I was just thinking more on schools and stuff, too. So, um, second question, because if if we were to go in this direction, we know there's going to be people constantly challenging it's too bright, it's not right. Is there a a licensing fee or an inspection fee for having somebody actually go and check that once a year? I had some experience in Town and Country with signs on 64. in town and country, you know, they would occasionally say, "You need to have the sign people come out and do another inspection." That was been years ago. Uh

and and they weren't anything digital. They were just you could have three colors, red, white, and brown. That that was it. So, you had to make the most of it. Uh I'm just curious that if if it is something, and there would be uh inspections required, are there companies who do that inspection? Because when people come in and tell us, you know, well, we have to have this sign. The next thing they'll say is, we don't have any money in our budget to have somebody to come out and service it or to do that type of thing. Or they'll come out and say, we're going to put the sign up ourselves. And they're not qualified. They've never done it before. And then we end up with people arguing about it. So, not just those are just the kind of complaints I know kind of surface. Uh, and if we could avoid something like that, I think that's a a good way to do it. There are at least two companies in the St. Louis area who specialize in servicing EMC's. You probably want to know who they are and I have to look at my notes. But um whether they do them yearly, once a year, spot checks, that kind of thing, you could ask for that I guess as part of your ordinance. But yeah, some and some will just fail. They need defaults as well these signs so that you don't and you got to get somebody up the hill there. They just it's horrible. So, uh that that has to be done for but uh the yearly maintenance or every two years or whatever it happens to be that's good idea. Commissioner Hoffrey. So, thank you very much. My question is Mr. for Mr. Vunich. So, uh, last time we talked, we talked about kind of all the lighting as far as like the LEDs and things of that nature and the light behind the static signs as well. And we talked about the eye adjustment time. And then this this week was all about the the message centers, right? The electronic message centers.

And so, um, and then you told us that city council, the e economic development wanted us to limit it maybe to taxing entities. Um, and then somebody else mentioned here schools and I know that that we have a lot of areas where we have like Lafayette comes to mind automatically because you've got Babler, you've got Lafayette, you've got St. Alban Row. Those are all I believe in residential areas but on a main thoroughfare. And so I guess my question to you, it's like the million-dollar question is when when are we going to get into addressing what types of signs we'll allow in what areas? Because I think when we do that, will we have to have lighting zone districts first established? The intent of the department is to have a report with recommendation as early as the July planning and zoning commission meeting. So approximately one month from tonight. Well, I mean, because I see you have other things on here that you wanted to talk about and we kind of haven't talked about them yet. That's why I was asking maybe I'm trying to let you off the hook for July because I feel like we still have quite a bit that we have not covered. Sure help. That's fine. I don't want to rush the process, but I also want to be cognizant that there are others that have been involved in the process that would like to see some conclusion sooner than later. But if the commission feels that another work session in July to kind of start talking about the the things we need to do if we're going to allow electronic message centers and get down to maybe the details more so than the general concepts, that's fine. And we are at about 620. So I don't have much time to go over the other regulations that the department is recommending should be considered for change. Right. So I I my personal ask is that we don't do that in July because I think that there is more of a discussion that should be had about some of the

things that we haven't addressed yet and I think that the information that he's given us is is you know food for thought and gives you a little we need a little time to chew on it and so I I feel like if you're asking my opinion which you haven't yet but that is my opinion is that we have another work session both Mr. Newberry and I want your all's opinion. Ultimately, you have to make the recommendation to city council and city council has to basically weigh that recommendation relative to is it good, bad or indifferent. So from the perspective of the department, if we need one more work session, that's fine. As you know, with the subdivision and development regulations, we ended up I think with four work sessions to get through all of the topics that were necessary for us to consider. So, never rush, I guess, is the rule of thumb, right? I want to get it right the first time, or at least as right as we can get it the first time. Thank you very much, Mayor Gano. Yeah, I think I think what I'm going to say probably echoes what Commissioner Helfrey is talking about is that uh we're learning a lot. We be the first to admit I'm not an expert and I don't know how many feel are experts, but we are learning about this. So, thank you to the department and Mr. Bquette to share this with her but with us but you know all these parameters that are involved with the signs message boards I would probably expect that you will be putting together kind of your best recommendation based on best practices what you've seen in other cities perhaps comments that you have heard from us and then we can then react to that and if there is a specific item that we wish to amend or change we that discuss that. But I would think that we'd want something to react to um and that way then we can can determine whether you know to move it forward. So probably will need another

session. But uh I think you're getting where we're coming from. And based upon your comments, Mayor Garitano, I think it's only fair that yes, you have something from the department to kind of begin winnowing the discussion down because right now we have a lot of information, good information that's been provided by our consultant. We have information from other communities in the St. Louis metropolitan area. So, there's a lot to kind of review and kind of pull together. And I will say in the opinion of the department and I may believe Mr. Burquette said it once if not multiple times, we do still have a pretty nice dark environment and to lose that to the benefit of come to the pancake breakfast tomorrow morning just doesn't seem right. So if we're going to do this, we need to do it from the perspective of the department more surgically. And so yes, if another work session is desired, we can be prepared to kind of help you get that conversation to the core issues. Um, Council Member Marshall, I have to tell you, I think the taxing district is a win-winwin because we just cannot be the sign police and every organization will throw all their money in it and then you're going to have to go take a sign down. I think the taxing district thing is really a good way u to address who can put in an expensive sign and who will be responsible to the residents who live in the area. So I just think that's a great big step. Well certainly it limits the applications in the city of Wildwood substantially. But I will also tell you on the flip side from an enforcement issue hexing authorities are the worst to deal with.

Point taken. Does anyone have anything else? Mr. Chair, if I may go ahead. If there would be an inclination on the commission's part, could we have a motion to hold a third work session in July and a second and we can do that by a voice vote? Then I'll be able to report to others that have been following this particular matter. This the commission follow motion by commissioner second by commissioner Clayton. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any abstain? All right. We'll be back in July. Mr. Chair, members of the commission. Thank you. It's about 6:22. So if there's a motion to adjourn the work session, you can stretch your legs for a few minutes. All those in favor say I. I any opposed? Any abstain? All right, we'll be back on 6:30. Sorry.

zoning commission to order. Tonight on the agenda, we have one public hearing, two information reports, one site development plan recommendation report, and one other item. Um, can I get a roll call of commission members, please? Commissioner Borne here. Commissioner Bourne is on Zoom. Commissioner Hoffrey, here. Commissioner Con here. Commissioner Clayton here. Commissioner Deppler. Commissioner Jackson. Commissioner Rubis here. Chair Batty here. Council member Marshall present. Mayor Gitano. All right. Thank you. Here. Can I get an approval of the minutes from the May meeting, please? Motion by Commissioner Clayton. Can I get sec? Second by Commissioner Hellfrey. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? I'd abstain. I abain. Motion passes. One abstension. Um, does the Department of Planning have any opening comments? Yes, Mr. Chair. Before I do my short comment, um, I believe Mr. Borne also abstained. So, if we could verify that before the end of the meeting tonight. That's correct. My comment is very short. Um, I'd like to welcome Mr. Marshall to the planning and zoning commission. This is his first meeting as a city council lay on to it. So, welcome aboard. If you're not familiar, Mr. Marshall sat on the commission for many years as mayor, so he's not a stranger to our discussions. So, thank you. Thank you. Um, so now we'll enter into the public comment session. If you're here to uh talk about the public hearing, now is not your time yet. But if you want to

comment on any other agenda item, this will be your time. And as a reminder, uh, 3 minutes unless you're rep representing a group and then it'll be five. Um, Mr. Newberry, do we have any cards? We do. And Mr. Chair, if you don't mind me adding, if you would like to speak, there are speaker cards on the back table. fill it out and give it to me here at the at this table. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The first speaker card is Mr. Trrost. Come on up, Mr. Chair. Mr. Trost is a representative of the neighborhood association. So, you'll receive five minutes. Okay. Thank you. Good afternoon or good evening. Uh, my name is Bob Tro. I'm a trustee of the Pinhook Palace Subdivision. and I've been a resident of Pin Hallow for 20 years. So, uh I wanted to comment briefly since I guess we canled the last meeting and the one prior to that was more subsided, but uh we have been working since then and try I just want to bring you up to date what we've been doing during this time. Uh uh we're uh I guess the positive news we're we're open to the CU thing. We're I think we've warmed up substantially to it and uh naturally there's always a glitch with that. We have to uh uh our attorneys are working together, Mr. uh Katie and Eli Ellis and so they're fully engaged at this point we feel and they're talking. So that's good. Um we have issues regarding our dentures as we mentioned or I mentioned last time we need 100%. that we got one of those antiquated uh uh indentures or excuse me, yeah, indentures that indicates we have to have 100% approval before we can change anything really. And so our attorneys and Mr. Katy are

grappling with that. And so we're we're in discussions to get one landowner out of the 10 join ranks with us. Right now he won't turn a phone call or pay a dues or anything. So we need to work on him. We we have reason to be optimistic. I hope I think we are. Uh so we had the last thing we got was I guess from Joe the 33 page uh Travis here. We got a 33page document. I guess you've seen that outlining your position, your recommendation. And frankly uh our attorney was kind of overwhelmed with it and he says uh see if we can buy some time here. I say I don't think we're voting tonight but I I'll bring that forward to the uh commission. let them know that we still are reviewing that 33page document. And I I was taken the back by how, you know, detailed it is and what's required there. So anyway, and the third the last thing is then we're still reviewing some settlement documents we might take to the residents to get them on board. So um I don't that report sounds optimistic. We feel better about it now than we did last time. So anyway, any questions? I'd have to try to answer. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your comment, Mr. Chair. The next speaker is Mr. Kitty. Mr. Chair, Mr. Katy is the attorney for the petitioners. So, he'll receive five minutes, too. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vich. Good evening. Uh, Vince Katy on behalf of the uh petitioner uh Broken Rocks. So, I'm not going to take anywhere near the aotted time. We did go through the report. Our our architect has reviewed it. Our engineers in the process of reviewing it. There were just a couple comments that stuck out to us that we'd like to work with staff on. Um, from a facilities and uh project management

type standpoint. Um, two things stuck out to me. Um, one is there's a requirement in there about um the occupant of the resident not having uh be affiliated with the actual um school that we're we're talking about putting on here if approved. And the design that we had obviously not communicated very well was the the actual manager of the studio itself would be the person that we had intended on living on site with his family. Um, we weren't, to be crystal clear, none of the people that were going to come in and use the studio the couple times a year when this occurs were going to live there or stay there. They would be housed at a hotel and then picked up the van and brought to the site. So, we wouldn't have people staying there, that kind of scenario. But, it was our intention to have the person that we're calling the manager of the studio be the person that lives on site in the house with his family. So, we just wanted to clear that up and then we can work with staff as to whether or not that's going to be an issue with the conditions for the CUP uh if it in fact goes forward and is approved. And then the last one was the very last comment in the report itself had to do with your your typical development requirement for a public space requirement. And uh our concern with that is the way we read it. We understand the intention of the ordinance itself and the way we read the report was maybe because staff was suggesting as a condition for the conditional use permit if approved would be some additional parking be added on the site itself. I guess our response to that is one um there's a limitation on how many people can actually show up at any particular time for any one of these um uh events or these recordings that we're going to be doing. and we think the site as paved and the length of the

driveway itself is more than enough parking and therefore there might not be a need to add additional parking which may trigger the requirement for the uh public space requirement in the ordinances. Um, so that would be our request there is to also be able to work with staff and maybe massage that particular request as well because again the way we envision these working is this would be no different than in any of your neighborhoods if you were having Thanksgiving dinner at your house or a party at your house. We have more than enough parking to accommodate the visitors that will be there. And bear in mind that the students that are going to be coming there, the young musicians to use the facility itself will be staying at a nearby hotel and they will be coming to the uh residence in the studio via van. So there's not going to be any real additional need for parking as far as they're concerned. We acknowledge that we're going to have, you know, different participants, whether it be professors from local um schools or the actual musicians themselves that'll need parking. But again, we think we can accommodate that. Also here with me this evening um is our architect, Thaad Martin, who plans to come up and talk about a couple issues that he had with the architectural and some of the design elements. And then uh finally also we have the executive director of Broken Rocks uh Mike Zitto that's here in case if you have any questions for him as well. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Mr. Chair, the next speaker is Mr. Martin. Hi everyone. I'm Thad Martin with V3 Studios on uh speaking here on behalf of Broken Rocks. And um one of the things that I wanted to just point out relative to the staff report that uh we we received late last week was relative to uh an attachment B the conditions um under floor area height and building requirements. Uh clause C under there states that the new building that will

house the private school activities shall not shall not exceed 5,000 ft in area nor exceed 18 ft in height above grade plane. Um, and I just wanted to question that's counter to the current uh planning and zoning of Wildwood uh section of Wildwood zoning code 415.090 D 2 A sub.1 indicates that for all lots over 5 acres in non-urban zoning, the accessory structures shall max at 2.5% the overall lot size. So 2.5% of the Broken Rocks lot size um MA uh factors out. So our lot is 6.473 acres. It's about 281,963.9 square ft. 2.5% of that is 7,049 square ft. Um so technically according to your own zoning code, we're allowed up to 7,49 ft of accessory structures on the site. Uh and then additionally relative to your point saying that the building shall not exceed 18 ft in height above the final grade plane uh section 415.090 point D.2F uh where it gives the heights uh for non in non- urban zoning states that 60 ft max uh is the height and our proposal we are both less than the 7049 and less than the 60 ft. Uh however, what was submitted even in the packet that accompanied the comment uh is slightly larger than 5,000 square ft uh and is higher than 18 uh ft. Currently, our design is 26 feet. Where's that note? 26 feet and 9 and 78 in is how tall our current building is. Um and currently our total square footage is

5,497 square ft. Um so just wanted to clarify that um relative to the the condition in the zoning and curious as to why it was counter to the zoning code itself and those particular sections that I referenced. Um but that's that's my only comment. All right. Thank you for your comment. Mr. chair. Uh the department has does not have any additional speaker cards for the public comment session, but anyone on Zoom if they want to ra speak and they can raise the hand uh tool. Mr. Chair, the department just received another speaker card. Mr. Zto. Okay. filled out a a card for Mr. Zto in case there were any questions. He he we don't have anticipate him speaking and and I forgot to echo one last point and that was a point that Mr. Tro made. We are working vis vigorously with the trustees and the subdivision uh attorney. They have a draft of a proposed agreement that hopefully ties this all together and it includes a lot of the requirements that are in the report about the number of people that are going to be there and the type of use and getting permission from the trustees to do different things. So, thank you. Thank you. All right. Um, no one is raising their hand on Zoom, so at this point we'll go um do our first public hearing. Um, in the city of Wildwood, public hearings are truly intended to accept comments and questions concerning this posted item. Since this is since this request is being presented at a public hearing, no action is planned on this item tonight and consideration of it is to be taken no earlier than the July 2025

planning and zoning commission meeting. This approach this approach ensures all members of the commission will hear all opinions before taking any action. The city's department of planning will address the comments, questions, and concerns that are raised tonight and include them as part of its formal recommendation to the planning and zoning commission. Anyone attendance at city hall tonight wanting to speak should fill out a speaker card and leave it with Mr. Newberry. Those in attendance via the Zoom webinar platform should use the raise hand feature to indicate you wish to speak at this hearing. A team member will add you to the list of speakers which will then be communicated to me as chair and I will invite you to speak when it is your turn. The public hearing process is outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet which can be found on the table at the enter entry area to the council chambers. The commission will allow all parties adequate time to present their position as outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet. Speakers who are designated as as a group speaker representing more than five individuals will be allocated five minutes to speak. Those individuals representing themselves will be allocated 3 minutes to speak. In addition, information on this item can be found on the city's website at www.c cityof wildwood.com. The commission would like to thank you for your cooperation and participation at tonight's hearing. PZ6-25, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Master Lee, BC6-25, Louto, 815 Strucker Road, Baldwin, Missouri 63 05. Car Gabe Duba, THD Design 148 Chesterfield Industrial Boulevard, Chesterfield, Missouri 630005. A request for a change in zoning for attractive land that is 6 acres in size being located on the east side of

Striker Road north of its intersection with Highland Summit Drive. Street address 815 Striker Road, St. Louis County. Locator number 21U430031 which is currently zone NU non-urban resident district master plan conceptual land use category of suburban residential area to the R1 1acre resident district. Proposed use a total of two single family detached dwellings including required right-of-way dedication along Striker Road. One of these dwellings is already constructed. This particular property is located in Ward three. Thank you, Mr. Vunich. Mr. D. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, and members of the planning and zoning commission. As usual, the department has prepared a brief slideshow presentation with some exhibits and photographs uh regarding the subject site. The first is an aerial view identifying the general location of the 6acre property along Streker Road north of its intersection with um Highland Summit Drive. Next is just a little bit of a closer view here. As you can see is the last statement and what Mr. Vun has read in the record. The house is in this area under construction. It's now been has been constructed completely. Um and then the other part of this arrow that I would point your attention to is is the um western portion of the site that is um has a private property between the Highland Summit Drive and um the property itself. I'll have more to say later on that. Um this is the the plan sheet that shows the lot being split into two lots. One at 3 acres and one at 2.86 acres with the current home. Um the kind of orange brown color on the western side is a 40 foot wide access easement. Um that uh would provide access to the new 3 acre lot if approved.

Next are just a series of photographs showing the property's frontage onto Striker Road. This is standing at the driveway area of the home um looking to the south along Striker Road. This is standing at that same location looking to the north. And this view just gives a a a view of the topography as it changes from Stucker Road going kind of up the hill where the house has been constructed. And then next is just an image of the the site from Stucker Road. Um most of it is vegetated but there this is a break in the vegetation. And then the next set of photographs are just um because the second lot is being proposed to be accessed by Highland Summit Drive. We wanted to show you just the intersection of Highland sub Highland Summit Drive and Stucker Road. This is looking to the south at that intersection and then this is looking to the north. Uh the left side of the photograph is the frontage of the subject lot onto Streker Road. The next set of photographs are the general location of where the proposed 40oot access easement is on Highland Summit Drive. This is looking to the north. This is looks at the same location looking to the south. And then the next is just kind of the characteristic of the neighborhood across the street from the proposed access. And then this is standing on the other side of the road looking towards the east at the the general area of the proposed access easement. Um you can see that it's heavily um vegetated um at that location. I that concludes the department's presentation. Um if commission members have any questions where department's available for those um but Mr. Chair the uh uh petitioner's representative has provided a presentation for them to present here

tonight as well. Okay. Thank you. If the petitioners representative would like to come up. Go ahead. Thank you. Uh, am I reading this? You said that the proposed thing is east of Striker Road. Okay. I I thought you said it was easter. Okay. Go ahead. Oh, thank you. Um, and then looks like we're ready to go now. Uh, just a few nuts and bolts. Um, if you need me to fill out a comment part, I can do so. Name and address, please. Yes, that's up next. I am Elizabeth Long with Amson Davis. Uh, we are council for the builder who will be constructing the homes at the subject property. Um, we're assisting with the reszoning uh, and subdivision of that property. We're at uh 7711 Coranderlet Avenue, sweet 800, St. Louis, Missouri 63105. And I want to thank uh Mr. Venich and his staff. He's been uh tremendously helpful over the past couple weeks getting everything together. Uh so the property, as Mr. Newberry uh indicated, is uh on Strucker Road. Again, this first slide is just kind of a recap of the pro of the uh property and where it is. Um it the property abuts on the east side of Strreker Road uh just north of the entrance to Highland Summit. Uh the property itself is zoned NU non-urban but it is surrounded by R1A

uh 1acre residential properties or other resident residential developments. So you can see at the north uh there's Wcliffe um and then there's a large common area actually belonging to Yliffe between the actual homes and the property. Uh to the east you have Strucker Road and Wildwood Meadows. To the south and to the west are uh Highland Summit. Uh the exerpt from your zoning map again just kind of shows the property itself is like this uh small non- urban island in the middle of uh the R1 1acre residential district. Uh so there really wouldn't be any conflict with any of the surrounding uses by doing this resoning. It would simply make it conform with the surrounding properties. All right. So the request to reszone uh the property itself is nearly 6 acres. You cannot of course build two houses on one lot. So we need to divide it. Along with the subdivision there was a request for uh a bit of the front um the proposed lot two which would be on the east fronting on Stucker Road to have some rideway uh in the event the city wants to put a sidewalk or something in there. that reduced the size of lot two from three acres to 2.86. So we're talking about maybe a tenth of an acre here. Um but this will um because the lots are over 1 acre, it will be uh fine within the uh 1 acre uh zone starting with uh excuse me within the R1 1 acre residential district. Uh starting with lot two uh on the proposed lot split. Lot two um has the existing

home on it. Uh the proposed lot two without the ride ofway would have 3 acres on it. With the ride ofway that's outlined there in red, it's about 2.86. Uh but for the ride ofway, it would be 3 acres or very very close to it. Uh the proposed lot one is to the west. So it's kind of behind where the proposed lot two is where the existing residence is would be accessed via a private easement between the property and Highland Summit Drive. Highland Summit Drive is um has been accepted for public maintenance by the city of Wildwood. Um what we are talking about here too as far as traffic is a residence. So it would be, you know, one, two, three cars, however many, you know, people would be living there and driving. We're not talking about a huge burden or anything on the city streets. We're talking about one house. Um, I did notice in looking through the packet today that there were some concerns raised by the citizens in Wildwood, um, which we are addressing here with our impact of the lot split. One of the concerns I kind of summarized as excess development. I saw some concerns uh regarding traffic uh drainage and runoff, things like that. Um this is again going to be a custom home built on a largely wooded lot. Uh the builder will comply with city ordinances with regard to grading, impervious surface, runoff, etc. Uh again, this is just one additional residence. It's not a new subdivision. It's a house. Um again, concerns with traffic. Um somebody did point out the curve on Strucker Road approaching Highland Summit Drive. This

house won't have access to Highland Summit Drive, so there will be or excuse me, it won't have access to Stucker Road. I apologize. Uh so there won't be any change to the traffic on Strucker Road. Um, I believe there was some concern about uh some erosion and water rising on Caulks Creek. That is actually across Strucker Road to the east of our property. We don't know about it. Um, the new home will not be visible from Stucker Road or if it is, you know, this will be a well-appointed customuilt home. Um, but we don't believe it will be visible. The last concern uh was regarding uh construction parking and uh dirt up and down the road. Um because this lot has already got one home on it, there's been some grading done. There's room now, I believe, for up to 15 construction vehicles. Uh the builder has committed to putting a cleanout station kind of on the property so that the vehicles the construction vehicles coming in and out can kind of wash off their wheels and kind of help keep Striker Road tidy. Um and finally just to wrap up we have the factors to be considered uh when doing the resoning. One of course is the use of surrounding property. Again, this would simply make this current, you know, property match the surrounding properties. Um, there's no right-of-way dedication requested. Um, I believe the adaptability of the property would be, you know, it could be used for the current zoning, but of course, you can't put an extra home on there the way it is. Um, as far as the value of surrounding properties, we have heard um that this could potentially increase the value of the properties. This is will be a well-appointed custom home. Uh, I believe is it 1.5. Okay. So, valued at approximately

1.6 million. So, this is not going to be, you know, something that's thrown up overnight. Um it complies with the master plan which shows the area being used as residential. Um the city uh complied with the applicable requirements for publishment. The builder will comply with applicable ordinances for uh grading, water quality, tree preservation, uh things like that. Uh if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. And I also have the builder here if you have any questions of him. Thank you for your comments. Thank you. Um, one question I did have, it looks like you're getting an easement from a lot owner on Highland Summit, correct? Do you have that easement already? Uh, we have prepared the agreement. Uh, we have a verbal commitment from the property owner. Um, oh, we have a contract. Okay. Oh, no, that's fine. We have a contract from the property owner and then, um, once everything is closed, we'll have an easement as well. We've got it prepared, I think, as drafted at new materials. All right. Thank you. Commissioner Hoffrey. So, I have some questions for Mr. Vunich. Um, uh, thank you very much for speaking with us. Um, so I have a a couple things. I drive past this every day and so one one of my first questions is the elevation. I went back through and I looked through the whole presentation. I didn't see anything that said elevations because I know that when you're standing on Stucker Road and you look up, it looks like the property just continues to go up into the sky. So my first question is this second lot that they're talking about is that higher than the existing first lot who has its entire backyard is is retaining wall. So is that a whole lot higher? Yes ma'am. The elevation is significantly different. Okay. And it's higher than the existing residence and higher in elevation than Streker Road. Okay. So I will let you know I drive

this road multiple times a day and runoff is absolutely an issue in that area. doesn't matter if they're next to Clocks Creek or not. Um, so one of the questions I have is how do you address that? Because I didn't see a picture on the other side of Striker Road where the houses are way down. So you've got this driveway that's up here that comes down and all of the runoff with it's a lot of concrete on that driveway and it hits Strucker Road. There's no kind of drainage ditch that you can see that I can see. And then you've got Strucker and it runs straight off into these people's homes which every single one of these things was about we're washing away which we know we have those issues. Um, so my question would be, I know that in the presentation they said they would address um the runoff according to city regulations, but how exactly do we protect those people that are on the other side of Striker Road that are below road grade from more concrete, more runoff, and when you start cleaning trees on that lot, you're going to have a lot more runoff and mud. How do we protect those people? That's that's my second question. The next thing is you said um you could park 15 construction vehicles on that and you might put your cleanout up there, but once again it goes back to it's up here and water runs downhill and so what's going to happen with all that mud and that dirt and that clean out. Is it going to rush down? Um and I think that's it. The only other comment I would make is that I I know you keep saying it's only one additional residence and I'm not opposed to it. These are just questions I want answered, but I have five cars at my one residence. So, you know, it's a lot of cars sometimes and that's all I have. Thank you, Commissioner Holy. Um, with regards to storm water management, this particular property is also within the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer

District. Now, saying that, it is one new home on a 3acre lot. So typically the extent of runoff isn't comparable to let's say a smaller subdivision with multiple lots um and the need for extensive improvements from a storm water management perspective. However, as you know, our wershed erosion task force has spent the last three plus years trying to figure out the problems in Cox Creek wershed, particularly in this area. And we now do require on-site treatment of runoff for even three acre lots. And so there'll be some combination of [Music] of improvements for storm water management. We do rock sumps where the water from the down spout drains to a rock sump and it basically stays on site because it migrates through the soil to the to the geology below. We also have used amended soils. So there's a whole list of potential options, but primarily we'll let MSD first tell us what they think and then we'll add to that. We also as part of the development process, we do require a storm water pollution prevention plan and that does include temporary off- streetet parking for construction employees. It has to be rocked. There has to be a wash out area and obviously we have to have a schedule if mud does get out onto the public private public street. Also, we require siltation control at the edge of the disturbance limits and that has to be checked after major storms and on a regular basis as well. And there'll be a precon pre-construction meeting with our code inspector to ensure it's all been

addressed. The runoff or any erosion that might occur will basically go to the existing residents first. So, I'm sure that neighbor will be wanting to ensure that there isn't an issue. So, between the new development site at Streker Road and Wildwood Meadows, we have an existing home that's on now it will be on a 2.86 acre tract of land if the zoning's approved or recommended for approval and then approved by city council. So there's I think enough checks and balances that one additional home on a threeacre lot I won't guarantee there won't be ever an issue but we can address many of them I believe uh during the uh development phase um our client willy to produce the appropriate plans um that are agreeable to everybody. Well, I I don't live in the neighborhood that's at the bottom of that hill, but I just would hope that that they that you just kind of address their concerns. I mean, that's not you're not required. That's just my hope, right? So, thank you for your time. Sure. All right. Thank you. Just one question. Will this home face Highland Summit or face Striker Road? It will. Thank you. Uh, council member Marshall, just a question. Down on Strucker Road. I see you have the part vacated there. Will there not be an escrow put in for a sidewalk in the future? Well, obviously the requested dedication is the reason the property owner needs the resoning to be considered. And yes, as part of a lot spplitter resoning, we can request the installation of a

sidewalk and it will be our intent to have a sidewalk installed. Mayor Garo. Yeah. Director Vunage, just wondering, I know that this home is behind the one that was more recently built. Looks like that home is about 6276 ft. Yeah, 6,276 ft. Um, do we have any, you know, known issues when that home was under construction regarding some of the concerns that came up? because if there if those concerns would have definitely come up with a home even closer to tracker right there. Mayor Garana, I did read the comments that were submitted by some of the surrounding property owners and certainly if the utility connections that were made for the existing residents weren't completed in terms of final grade, establishment of ground cover, etc. We can address that and I'm sure the property owner will be glad to be a good neighbor and so I'll ask our code enforcement team to take a ride out there and do an inspection. We can address that long before the reszonings. I guess my question was when that one was being built that we run into any issues. I don't recall any other than obviously as you saw from the photographs provided by Mr. Newberry, that driveway that kind of climbs that steep hill to get to the flat building pad where the new residence is located, that was rock for a while. And when we had some of our bigger storms, I know that there was rock that traversed out onto Strucker Road, but I believe it was addressed in a reasonable time frame. And then I do see in one of the views of that site there looks like there is a storm water collection basin there. Could you describe that a little bit more? Sure. That is the storm water management facility for

Wcliffe. And so Wcliffe through its system of streets, curbs, gutters, curb inlets area and let's drain all their storm water there. And then it's managed from a standpoint of held there and and released at a metered amount. So that belongs to the subdivision to the north. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? All right, seeing none, can I get a motion to close the public hearing? Mr. Chair. Oh, we have Oh, sorry. Yes. Speaker cards. My bad. Um, Mr. Chair, the first speaker is Mr. Sour. Hello everybody. My name is Marty Sour. I live at 701 Oaksdale Summit Court, which is in Highland Summit, Ward 3. Uh, ever since we've got our little flyers in the mail, there's been a lot of rumors floating around the subdivision. So, what I have here is a list of questions. After talking with several of the homeowners in our subdivision, I've compiled a list of what we want to talk about. So, we can do it a couple different ways. If you want, I mean, I can stop and you can answer the questions if it's possible or else I can just leave them and then you guys can answer it later on. Go ahead and just uh speak all of your concerns. See how it goes. Okay. React. Okay. Now that we know that the access point is not off Strucker Road, but off Highland Summit Road, uh, is there going to be public record on how much that purchase price was for that

homeowner for our subdivision to see or not? Just keep going and we'll answer at the end. All right. Was Highland Summit Drive the only access point that was looked at? Because you could have an access point going right up from Streka Road to that back lot back there and that would only inconvenience one homeowner where if you come on Highland Summit Drive, it's going to be inconvenience for 84 homeowners going into that house. Okay. Let's see. Obviously, Wildwood hasn't approved this, so I can skip that one. Does Highland Summit have a an HOA voting on this whole pro on this whole project? Uh because from what we've heard, the homeowner wants to join our subdivision and just want to make sure everything is going to be followed per our guidelines. Uh, and we've heard that a possible donation to the HOA. Uh, we'd like to know how much that's going to be. And who has the final say on this whole project? Wildwood, the HOA, if they vote it down or what? Okay. Is there an estimated completion date on this project? I know barring weather and everything else. Just like to know what a completion is. Who's responsible for I heard heard a lot of things about Strucker Road and everything else. Who's responsible for road damage on Highland Summit Drive and where will all these construction

vehicles be parked? because concrete trucks are going to have to come up pile into Summit Drive to get access if you're going to go through there. And one of the questions we have and I think I heard the lady say that property values will go up because this is estimated 1, it says $1.6 million home compared to other ones in there that aren't near that. And then will our taxes go up? Also, another question that people have and that's it. I'd like to know if I you want me to leave the questions here. Okay, that's all I have. All right. Thank you for your comments. Okay, Mayor Garano. Yes. Yeah, I just want to make a comment. Uh, thank you for raising those points. I think the department can try to answer some questions, but I believe some of those questions are a matter between the petitioner and the HOA. Um, but I'll defer to u the department of planning. I just want to make sure that the speaker doesn't get the impression that this is a the city's project or anything like that. This is petitioners bring their projects to the city and then we review them. Director Vunage, did you wish to uh address maybe some of those items or I can do a general um review, but with Mr. Sauer leaving the questions, we'll do a more formal response so that they can circulate it around the neighborhood. First and foremost, the department has encouraged the petitioner to engage with the homeowners association, particularly the trustees. Obviously, it's imperative

that the trustees know what is being proposed and if they do have any comments, certainly the departments of planning and public works would like to hear those and we'll address them as best as possible. So in terms of the HOA, we've encouraged that that communication, that input and that um and whatever um process they have. Um secondly, we do not know of any donation to the homeowners association relative to an allowance. The proposed easement is across private property, not common ground. And so it is a negotiation between that private property owner and the petitioner in this case who has final say. We as the city will make the determination relative to the zoning district designation of the property. But if there are indentures that have something contrary, our decision does not negate the indentures. And so it is in the best interest again for the petitioner and the homeowners association to have that communication. Completion date is a good question for the petitioner. Um any work in the public rideway requires a special use permit from our department of public works. And that special use permit does require an escrow to ensure that if there is damage it's repaired. We expect the petitioner or the developer or builder to make those repairs, but if not, that escrow is our guarantee. We do require all construction vehicles and employee vehicles to be off streetet, not on street for parking purposes. That's why we've talked about a rockedin

lot, the wash out area, etc. They work fairly well, but you cannot guarantee that mud will not go onto the street. And if it does, we expect the developer builder to address it. Will taxes increase? I think that's almost a given. Taxes increase all the time. But I don't have an answer to that specific question. That's something between the Department of Revenue, the assessor, and how it will impact an overall subdivision of almost a 100 homes. So, I'll do the best I can. I will say that to access this particular lot from the from lot 2 to Streker Road, we would require a public dedication um for all intents and purposes or at least a private dedication that meets our rural roadway standards. So there would be a substantial amount of grading and tree removal to make that particular connection. And in the department's opinion, we probably would prefer not to see that because along with that amount of grading and tree removal, there would be more storm water that potentially would be generated because of the loss of the woodlands. So, we actually like the access point onto Highland Summit Drive, and we think as a city, we prefer it for the simple fact that it causes less sight disturbance uh on both lots. We'll provide formal responses to all the questions as best we can, but once we can't, we'll ask Miss Lum, the attorney representing the builder, to see if she can assist. Thank you. Travis, do you have any more speaker cards? one additional speaker card. Go ahead. Uh the next speaker is Mr.

Reed. I'm Scott Reed and um I live at 16748 Highland Summit Drive in here in Wildwood. My question is really procedural in nature and it really comes down to this question. How can you accept testimony on a project that has been improperly noticed? Now, the reason I say that is and uh Jim was you you really nailed it. Um and so you're to be complimented. But the document that caught my eye is this one. And as a matter of fact, you displayed this. And if you would, could you pull it up for just a moment? Is that possible? If not, I'll I'll address it verbally. But the picture, I think, is adequate from what I've seen here tonight. But the description on the back says the project is being located on the east side of Striker Road, north of the intersection with Thailand Summer. This is not east of Striker Road. It's what? The same mistake appears in tonight's agenda. It's in tonight's agenda. that says being located on the east side of Streker Road north of the intersection of Highland Summit. So my question is very simple. It's procedural. How do you uh go ahead and accept testimony from a project that was improperly noticed? Thank you for your comment. Well, Mr. Mr. Chair, we do have our city attorney in attendance tonight, but my response will be the general directions is one way that we notice the site. We provide the photograph, the aerial photograph with the area highlighted. We provide the locator number that comes from St. Louis County, and we provide

the street address. So, as I say, it's just one of many ways we identify the property. But, Mr. Young, if the department's made a mistake, we'll certainly accept responsibility and take your direction on how to correct it. Thank you. Mr. Young, do you have any comments? I have at this point I didn't see any uh issues with the director's explanation of the notice. All right. Thank you. Well, again, Mr. chair will spend a little more time with the city attorney and provide him the information the uh speaker pro uh noted and we'll make sure that we're doing the right thing. Thank you. And this is not the last time it will be this notice will be in front of us. So if we can correct the typo in future publications that would be appreciated. Commissioner Hry. Well I just had one question and one comment. My question was, are these lots currently do they currently belong to that HOA or the the lot does it currently belong to that HOA? Well, this is just an orphan parcel of ground that was when Yliffe was proposed, I believe Meli Holmes tried to purchase it. The owner of the property didn't want to sell it to Meli Homes. And so, it's kind of just been an orphan piece for a period of time. And now the current resident of the existing dwelling um bought it the 6 acres, built their residence, and now is wanting to subdivide it and allow an additional residence. But no, it's not part of Highland Summit. It's not part of White Cliff, not part of Wildwood Meadows. And it's not it's not required to be correct. No. If the Boulder developer wants to become part of the homeowners

association of Highland Summit, that's an issue between the property owner and the HOA. Okay. And then I just wanted to make one comment on something you said earlier. As I said multiple times, I drive that road every day and when they were building this first house and there was some uh bad weather in the rocks, they were out there immediately cleaning it up. It was that was never an issue. So, I just want to make sure that that that's they they they always were out there and addressed any issues with the rocks on the road immediately. So, thank you. Thank you. [Music] Any no more speaker cards? Correct. No additional speaker cards. If we could just allow a moment for the folks on Zoom like to speak, great. Please use the raised hand tool. All right, seeing nothing, can I get a motion to close the public hearing? Oh, mayor, let me ask a question and this might be more for the city attorney. Um, just based on that comment there, do we have the option if if there um we wish to reopen the public hearing? Is that an option available to us? Uh generally speaking, once once the uh hearing is closed, the only way to reopen it is to republished. So if you're going to close the meeting or close the hearing, which I should say I'm I'm comfortable with. Uh I would not recommend reopening it without republishing. Mr. Mayor, if I may, Mr. Young, could we hold the public hearing open and then recite the corrected direction at the time when we present the information report with recommendation? That that's certainly within the

discretion of the commission. Yes, maybe that's what I would ask is let's keep that open uh just to make sure there is an opportunity. Obviously, there are speakers that did come here tonight related to that, but just in case uh anyone does wish to speak based on that comment regarding the east west uh direction there being noted. Um anyway, we were not planning on making any decision tonight. It was only a public hearing for tonight. Uh so I would suggest that. Yeah. say leave the public hearing open and then we'll close it and barring something substantial next month will act on your information report at that time. Yes. And my recollection and correct me if I'm wrong. We actually sent out a mailer for the information report to the same number of properties that received the notice regarding the public hearing. And so the new mailer will have the corrected direction and my apologies. So you'll be you'll send out a new mail. Yes. For the public meeting on the information sense just so clarity folks an opportunity if anybody wishes to speak. So at this point looking for a motion to postpone. Yes. Oh no. I was just going to make a motion to leave it open uh until the information report comes back. So you wouldn't be closing it. Yeah, just leave it open. That's what I was getting at. I've So we have a motion in a second. Sure. Sour concerns. um and so I'll try to take them in order uh as much as I can.

He asked whether there would be a public record of the easement and the consideration paid. The answer is that yes, the easement agreement will be recorded. Uh so that will be a public record. The consideration is a private contract between the parties. Uh so that won't necessarily be made public. Um as far as access to Strucker Road, I believe Mr. Venich addressed that. um is that it would take a considerable amount of grading and a lot more impervious surface which would of course hinder some of the concerns of runoff but given the terrain of the property it's also just not feasible. Um so access to uh Highland Summit Drive is is more feasible for the parties. Um, as far as a voting, uh, to my knowledge, the property owners do not intend to become part of the homeowners association. Um, so we do not believe any voting among the members of the homeowners would be required uh because this is not over common ground. It's over a private lot. Uh, should that change, I'll let you know. Um but to my knowledge right now there is no uh intent to join the homeowners association. Um I was informed that there was a potential for a donation to the homeowners association that is currently being negotiated. So I can't really give an amount uh once there is if there is something agreed upon then you know it can be made known to the homeowners. Um and finally I believe Mr. Vonich addressed this too. construction vehicles will be parked on the property. Um whether property value will go up, of course it's speculative. We believe it will, but um you know, again, that is speculative as would be

any potential increase in taxes and I believe that is it. So, thank you. Thank you for your response. Thank you. All right. Now, so we have a motion in the second to hold this open. Mr. Chair, who I didn't catch the second, I apologize. Oh, Commissioner Rubis, thank you. All right. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed. Any abstain? All right. Motion carries. Thank you. All right. Next on the agenda, Mr. Newberry, PZ4-25. PZ4-25, Broken Rock Studio, 18360 Pinhook Hollow Drive, Wildwood, Missouri 63069. Care of Vince Katy 7700 Force Boulevard. Clayton, Missouri 63105. Request for a conditional use permit to be granted upon an approximately 6.5 acre tract of land that is located at the terminus of Pinhook Hollow Drive. Private, west of its intersection with Allenton Road, public property address 18360 Pinhook Hollow Drive, St. Louis County, locator number 28X5200046 in non-Urban Residence District. proposed use a specialized private school and/or retreat operated by a not for-p profofit entity which would include a multimedia production facility i.e. music recording studio ward 6. Thank you Mr. Newberry, Mr. Greenwich. Mr. Chair and members of the planning and zoning commission, I do want to acknowledge Mr. Trost statement relative to their negotiations being ongoing and certainly not complete. that typically would trigger a postponement discussion relative to the report and recommendation. But I would note that I believe in this particular case if the conditional use permit is not supported by the planning and zoning commission there probably does not need to be any further negotiation between the property

owner petitioner and the homeowners association. So tonight, I would like to proceed at least to gauge the commission support of the department's recommendation in this regard and acknowledge as it was stated I believe by the mayor, there will be another opportunity in approximately one month to hear an update on the negotiations with the homeowners association and certainly for the planning and zoning commission to alter or modify their recommendation and the components associated with it if it is favorable tonight. So again, I am asking the commission for direction. Would you prefer a postponement or would you like to hear the department's recommendation uh relative to this matter? Mission HR, I I would ask you to go on. Do you need a motion for that to just continue? No, I don't believe I do. I just wanted to make sure that you understood we weren't ignoring Mr. Trost. He's been very cooperative and we've had conversations relative to this. So, I don't want to ignore him, but I also believe that there's not an inclination on the commission's part to support the permit, negotiations really don't need to move forward. Yeah. I mean, my personal opinion is that our approval is separate from their approval and either one of them can torpedo the whole thing. So we can we could give our approval and they f fall fall apart or we can say no and like you said they don't bother. Well with no objection I'll proceed forward. Mayor Gerano. Yeah just just more of a question. I mean does department have a preference whether we I would like to present the recommendation with the report and again hear what the planning and zoning commission is um thinking in this

regard. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Question, as a nonforprofit, will they be paying real estate taxes? It is my understanding that um unless you're a church or governmental entity, you pay uh property taxes, but um I would defer and I'll have to investigate that. That's usually not an item the department concerns itself with on a land use matter. because obviously we have a lot of institutional uses in Wildwood that would be great if they paid taxes to the city. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, the department has provided to you for consideration tonight a report with recommendation relative to the request that Mr. Newberry just read into tonight's record. Request is or consideration of a conditional use permit on this approximately 7 acre tract of land to accommodate the department would describe as an incubator facility to help musicians and music artists apply their trade in a context of understanding the ins and outs of the industry. Certainly as was described at public hearing by the musician and the partner is that this is something that they believe is essential given the current conditions relative to the music industry how things transpire there. The department obviously recognizes this as a unique request because for all intents and purposes, the petitioner is asking the city to consider a non-residential use at the end of a private street in a large slot single family subdivision.

However, as is described in the report, as unique as it is, the steps that are being taken by the petitioner and the communication between the homeowners association and the homeowners themselves has been certainly very different than what we typically see are here. So tonight, the department is recommending that the planning and zoning commission consider the conditional use permit request favorably. And the reason it believes that there is grounds for the commission to consider a favorable recommendation and action is first and foremost the appropriateness of the use. The intent is to manage the new building in a way that is consistent with the built environment both on the site and in the vicinity. The amount of traffic will be minimized to what uh the department would describe as consistent with any typical single family dwelling that might be there. a single van bringing the students to the location and then a few cars associated with professional musicians or others that are involved in the process. As noted, although the couple that I believe are the caretakers now may not be the residents of the dwelling, it is the intent to have the dwelling for residential purposes, not affiliated with any the activities inside the studio itself. So again the dwelling existing dwelling stays a dwelling and there is a family that resides there and the studio based upon the parameters that were described by the petitioner and the conditions in attachment B is very limited in terms of the amount of traffic generated the noise associated with it and the activity that's visible to the

outside. The department believes that the restrictions on the number of students, the number of sessions over any given year will ensure a low impact use relative to this particular property and the area around it. In terms of impacts, the greatest impact is on the existing private street in Hook Hollow Drive. And in the report, the department does spend a great deal of time describing the conversations with the homeowners association as well as what it believes are essential components if the private street is to be used for this non-residential purpose. And first and foremost, that step is to pave the street so as it is an asphalt or hard surface in accordance with the rural roadway standards with some exceptions. The department believes that a good street is a benefit to the homeowners, the homeowners association and the applicant. However, Mr. Tro has mentioned on couple of occasions that there is not consensus yet on that street. So the the condition in attachment B does defer to a large degree to direction from the homeowners association of how they would like that street be they're paved a better dust free surface or as is and certainly I think that's a fair approach. We do want to retain the rule nature. So we are not requiring a 20 foot width but would be maintained at its current width which I believe is approximately 12 ft with bumpouts for emergency purposes. The number of vehicles to the not forprofit relative to the students would not exceed one. So the impacts again are very limited relative to traffic. We've talked about the existing

dwelling. We want to ensure that the architecture is consistent with the existing dwelling as well as the surrounding area. And per the request of one of the speakers at the public hearing, we would do a review after the first year to ensure that all of the steps or components of the not for profofit were consistent, but thereafter it would be on a 10-year cycle. And so from that perspective, we believe that we would guarantee that steps are in place and complete after the first year. And then we believe that the 10-year cycle would be reasonable based upon other low impact permits of this nature that have been granted in the city of Wildwood. to respond to some of the comments from the petitioner and the petitioner's architect. First and foremost, the information provided that the public hearing didn't have the new building uh as part of it. That new building layout was provided at the time of the public hearing and the new building layout didn't have the square footage. So, the department did its best to assess that square footage at 5,000 square ft. it received a revised sub the day it was preparing the report. So that's an error on the director's part that it doesn't say five 5500 but 5,000 and again we were um assessing the height of the structure and again we had it at 18 ft I believe it is 27 feet. So those would be changes the department would recommend. However, the architect made a long statement relative to consistency with the underlying regulations of the NU non-urban resident district. And as the commission is aware, we cannot be less restrictive than those underlying

requirements of the non-urban resident district, but we can be much more restrictive. And in a setting like this with a non-residential use and a residential subdivision, we are always going to air of being more cautious, more restrictive to ensure the impacts are limited. So tonight we have prepared a list of conditions relative to this particular request. We believe the conditions upon modification for the studio size and its height are reasonable and appropriate and that the conditional use permit can operate at this location with minimal impact and actually derive benefits to the other homeowners relative to existing infrastructure and an improvement. And finally, the public space requirement is only applied for new spaces. We've calculated seven spaces are required and we believe the existing area of gravel and pavement accommodate those seven spaces. So there would be no public space requirement unless additional parking is added. So again, we have a favorable recommendation for your consideration tonight. After a motion and second, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Young, and I are available for any comments or questions. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vich. Commissioner Healthy, you did good because I wrote down all those questions that I was going to ask you all from, but I have one. Sure. I this resident occupant and so we're requiring the person that lives in the home to not be affiliated with the school. So I guess I'm just trying to understand why that's a requirement. I'm I don't disagree or agree. I just don't understand it. For clarity's sake, the department was not wanting the students to reside in the dwelling. And so the affiliation meant more for the students themselves, not an individual, let's

say, as the manager of the studio or the caretakers of the property. So can I guess when we make the changes for the the building, could we also maybe somehow change that so that it's a little more certainly clear, less muddy? Certainly. Again, the description wasn't as well written as I had hoped, but it's truly intended to avoid students actually occupying the dwelling because as was provided in testimony at the public hearing, they will stay off site at a local hotel somewhere in the vicinity hopefully in Wildwood. Right. Well, we'd like the Wildwood Hotel to benefit from this more so than Eureka, but that's not a decision we get to make. Thank you, Mr. Vintage. You're welcome. a lot closer to that house. I'm sorry. All right. Um I'll make a motion to accept the recommendation with the changes for the um the the new building, the height and the square footage as well as clearing up the verbiage for the resident of the home. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. All right. So, we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion or questions? I had just one quick question. Uh, yeah, Commissioner Deppler. Thank you. I was just curious, the existing house on the property, what is the height of it? Just for curiosity. I couldn't find that in the in the notes. It's a it's a story and a half. So those can vary anywhere from around 15 to 18 feet even up to 20 feet. So the studio will be a taller or taller building than the existing dwelling is my understanding. Okay. Yeah. I I was assuming it was probably in the 20 foot range just

looking at this picture. So it's not going to be significantly higher than it. Thank you. Now, it appears that at the most it may be anywhere from 8 to 10 ft. And again, elevation wise, it seems to sit the the location of the proposed new studio seems to sit at a a bit of a lower elevation. Again, it's in at the end of the culde-sac and for all intents and purposes is not visible unless you go to the end of the culde-sac itself. So, thank you, Miss Deppler. The new stu well, keep that up. The new studio is going to be where that building in the very back get that one. Yes. Based upon the new uh preliminary development plan, both of the outbuildings are to be removed and replaced with the single studio. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Thank you. All right. Any other questions? Thank you. All right. Roll call vote. Commissioner Con? Yes. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Deppler, yes. Commissioner Deppler votes yes. Uh, Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Borne, yes. Commissioner Bourne votes yes. Commissioner Helffrey, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Gitano, yes. Thank you. All right. Motion carries. Thank you, Mr. Sure. Yes, sir. Okay. Mhm. All right. Um, let's hear next on the agenda. PZ2-25. Mr. Newberry.

PZ2-25. G2 property holdings care of Martin Ule 2691 Joy Ridge Drive, Chesterfield, Missouri 63017. Request for a change in zoning from the amended C8 plan commercial district to the second amended C8 plan commercial district for a property that is generally located at the terminus of Hawthorne Village Parkway, west side of State Route 109 and also being situated, excuse me, also being south of State Route 100, PZ 22-97, St. Age Properties, Wildwood AutoMart. Property address 17109 Hawthorne Village Parkway, St. Louis County Locator number 23V1300042, amended C8 Planned Commercial District, Town Center Workplace District, thereby allowing amendments to the current governing ordinance to include new permitted uses and authorize other related accessory activities at the subject location. Proposed use warehouse facility with parking area and also being inclusive of the outdoor storage of equipment and related materials. Ward one. Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vich. Thank you again, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair and members of the Planning and Zoning Commission, the department has prepared for your consideration tonight an information report with recommendation regarding the request that Mr. Newberry just read into tonight's record. The request is to develop a vacant parcel of ground that is part of Town Center and located immediately west of the Philips 66 convenience store, gas pumps, and car wash. that is situated at the southwest corner of the intersection of State Route 109 and State Route 100. I think it's important to note early in the discussion relative to this request that there is an existing Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District pump station located on the same property. plans in the vicinity of that pump station are required to have a notice of

warning that the pump station does create an odor at times and can be less than the most desirable neighbor. I think that's important to note here in the fact that at one point this particular lot was identified as a potential site for a sit-down restaurant and then a two-story office building. The site has some characteristics that does not lend itself well to those types of uses. First and foremost, the pump station that was identified in my initial comments. Secondly, visibilitywise, it sits at a lower elevation behind the convenience store and is at a lower elevation from State Route 100. All compounding an issue of visibility, which all intents and purposes explains why the initial reasoning done in the late 1990s and almost 25 years later still remains vacant. The department has reviewed the request and initially did not support it from the standpoint that the petitioner wanted to build a metal building in town center. A metal building as the primary structure on a town center lot has never been authorized by the city of Wildwood. And so from that perspective, the department was not supportive. The petitioner recognized the concern and after two postponements submitted a plan that actually shows a building that will emulate in many ways the materials that are set forth for Town Center and its architectural guidelines. There will be a sighting. There will be a metal roof. There will be improvements in the interior to emulate basically a building that belongs in town center at this

particular site. The building itself is 5,000 square ft in size. The limitations on outdoor storage are significant and the intent of the petitioner is to store most of the vehicles, pick up trucks and trailers inside. that does not preclude some limited outdoor storage. However, that outdoor storage does not include any materials such as rock, sand, gravel, etc. The original design showed the area around the building as being gravel that is changed to asphalt to hard surface. Again, a requirement of town center. But all in all, the revised preliminary development plan shows substantial improvement and consistency with the designation of the regulating plan workplace district which anticipates offices and warehousing. The architectural guidelines are now addressed to the satisfaction of the department and the design standards reflect the uniqueness of this site which is it's oddly shaped. It has a pump station on it. and the pump station needs an access road that's been defined as surrounding the building. So from all of those characteristics and the steps taken by the petitioner to ensure a minimum level of compliance to the city's town center plan, the department is recommending that the second amendment of the CA plan commercial district be favorably considered by the commission. There are a list of conditions associated with that recommendation that are integral to the department's support and believes should be integral to the commission's support. But I do want to note one that may be somewhat difficult from the standpoint of expense. That particular roadway has been in place now for 20 plus years and the department believes it is incumbent on

the petitioner to upgrade it as best as possible to ensure that it is a passable surface not only for his business but for access to the pump station. So that's one of few one of the few items the department believes needs to be noted to the commission as well as the petitioner as part of its presentation summary. department is recommending a favorable consideration of the amendment of the plan district on this site. After a motion and second, the department will be available for any comments or questions. Thank you for your attention. Thank you, Mr. Vinich. Uh with respect to the roadway, are you talking that it would need to be approved all the way up to 109 or just behind the build 60s on the subject side? Oh. Oh, okay. Actually, Heartharn Village Parkway is a city street, so if it's in bad shape, we can take care of that. Okay. Thank you. Any discussion on Commissioner Hry? I make a motion to approve. Is there a second? Second, Commissioner Clayton. Any other questions or disc? Council member Marshall, I know I read this. They're going to drill a well. They'll not use city water. What about septic sewage? I mean, they're right there. Will they have water and sewer like you would in Town Center? Well, kind of turning back the pages of time, the Philip 66 when it developed wanted a car wash. So, it was a real struggle because there was not public potable water in the near vicinity. The city approved the car wash but for the initial period it was not operational and what happened after that is a little fuzzy because I don't recall

approving something that authorized a private main to be installed under Route 100 to serve the car wash. I know the car wash became operational after a period of time. The private main doesn't allow for connections. So for this small 5,000 ft office warehouse, they would have to either come from east to west under Route 109 or wait on the development of the reserve and have to cross Bottom Creek. So for the limited amount of use and the size of the building, a private well in this case or private main similar to what the convenience store had utilizes seemed reasonable. They will have to connect to public sewer. I was just curious because, you know, they'll have a small office area and then down the road if they decide they want to change that, you'll be limited with a well and limited use. But I think you're right. Maybe they could tap into something down the road. I just thought that was interesting to be all considered town center but not have city water. And as you know, we've struggled in Town Center south of Manchester Road in the areas of East Center and West Avenue as developments occurred. The old public water district number one system of pipes. This wasn't providing the volume or velocity. Missouri American Water Company does have a long range plan um to upgrade the system and do a loop. Actually, they'll go as far west as I think Wild Horse Creek Road in that vicinity along Route 100, but right now, yeah, the water situation isn't quite as stable as department would like, but for use like this with um all of the employees being out most of the day, feel comfortable that we can accommodate it until some until changes occur. North of Manchester Road isn't the

greatest either in that area. Sorry. And they do have a loop plan in place and they hope to implement that in the next few years and certainly it'd be a welcome relief to all of you. So we have a motion in a second. Any further discussion? All right. Seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Duckler, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Uh, Commissioner Borin, yes. Commissioner Hilfrey, yes. Commissioner Conn, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. Mayor Garano, motion carries. Thank you. Great. Uh, next on the agenda, Mr. Newberry, PZ1-25. A report on the site development plan SDP and associated architectural drawings for PZ1-25 Cattails Lodge care of Jane Budnick 404 Striker Road, Wildwood, Missouri 63011, which involves an existing commercial center located at the northeast corner of Striker Road and Clayton Road. Amended C8 Planned Commercial District Street address 16497 Clayton Road, St. Louis County, locator number 2120327. thereby recommending their favorable recommendation for the submitts in association with a luxury pet boarding facility kennel that is limited to the keeping of cats ward two. Thank you Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vunich. Thank you Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, the department is presenting to you a report with recommendation regarding an amendment to a site development plan for this particular commercial center. As you know, recently the planning and zoning commission recommended an amendment to the existing zoning to accommodate this boarding facility for cats. The city council concurred and

amended the ordinance. That amendment of ordinance contained a number of conditions specifically identified on page two of the report. It's important to note that there are limitations on the number of cats that can be boarded at the facility. There are requirements relative to the minimum of space for each cat and importantly there are no outdoor activities allowed as part of this boarding facility. Additionally, there are a number of requirements relative to just the interior space and ensuring that it's a habitable space for all and all of those items have been addressed in this submitt. And so tonight, the department is presenting the amended site development plan. It has no changes from the current condition along with the information that was required by the planning and zoning commission for this specific use and recommending its approval. There any questions or comments after a motion and second? Depart. Glad to answer that. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vinnich. Um any discussion on motion? Commissioner Clayton. Second by Commissioner Con. Did you have any other questions? All right. Any discussion? Seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Hoffrey. Yes. Commissioner Con? Yes. Commissioner Clayton? Yes. Commissioner Deppler? Yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Borne, yes. Chair Batty, yes. Council member Marshall, yes. And Mayor Garitano, thank you. All right, motion carries. Thank you. Right, one last thing. Um, Commissioner Hellfrey needed to step down as our liaison to the Historic Preservation Commission. And so I am

looking for a replacement. Anyone want to um join the join as the liaison to HPC? Don't all speak at once. Do want to make a comment though. I think that the description you have is the old meeting dates were on Wednesday. They're now the fourth Thursday. So if somebody's building it around their schedule, it uh I think they're still meeting now. their meeting on the fourth Thursday or is it third? It's not a Wednesday. I know that. And that's why I had to step down Thursdays. I can't do Thursday. Mr. Chair, with your permission, first of all, thank you, Mr. Marshall. That's in our existing bylaws. And so we'll have an amendment to the bylaws to reflect actually when the Historic Preservation Commission meets, which is the fourth Thursday of each month. Thank you. Thank you. I was going to say maybe we just have to have a lottery, you know, rotating members. Well, I think I Yeah, you know, maybe I will make another comment. I do appreciate Council Member Hellfrey uh stepping up. I think the last time we ran into this similar situation where there was silence and um you I think you tried your best and um you know that's something that maybe we can you know if if folks are concerned about overcommitting maybe we can kind of try to split it up a little bit where we could have somebody do it for a few

months and then give them break if that works better. Um, I will tell you that there's a lot of energy with the historic preservation commission. Um, I believe Commissioner Rubis was a part of that group there and uh, they're a big part of most major events in our city and you know there's a lot of great momentum there. So, you know, I think uh, there's flexibility. Um, I believe they do they do Zoom as well if needed. So, um, you know, I would say to anybody's thinking about it, maybe that might help make, uh, that decision a little bit easier. So, uh, Director Vunage, is there anything else you want to maybe chime in or add? It sounds like you got an idea. Well, Mr. Mayor, your my idea is maybe your idea. Maybe it's a done on a rotating basis. Uh, per your all's availability on a fourth Thursday of the month. I don't know if it's ordinance requirement or just the bylaws itself. So, Mr. Young, have you ever heard of that where the leazison may is may change from meeting to meeting or if there's a particular need, they meet once or twice and then it changes. Does that sound so far out? It I've not heard of it, but it certainly doesn't mean it can't be done. I mean, I think that is definitely something that if we build it into our bylaws, it's consistent with the code, we can certainly do with the permission of the commission. I'll ask Mr. Young to assist the department and we'll investigate that. So maybe if there's eight citizen members, maybe each of you can do a meeting and maybe a couple of you can double up. But we do I will say the Historic Preservation Commission generally doesn't meet in December. So

it's 11 times a year. And as Mayor Garitano mentioned and Mr. Marshall can attest, we're doing a historic preservation plan, the first of the city. We have a lot of activities underway. So they're busy, but it's a good busy. It's not a lot of homework for you all, but certainly you can see tangible results from your efforts. So, Mr. Young and the department will investigate it. We'll let you know maybe at the next meeting. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vich. All right. And with that motion to adjourn. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. I know you all want I want to go home too. I have a question on this. I was reading these earlier where it said items not ready for action and the first one says it's did I read this right that it's been open since 800 years or something and why is that still showing up on there? Guild care facility was authorized by St. Louis County the conditional use permit. Um, originally it actually served as a killer care facility. It was a welcome addition to the community when the city incorporated. Fortunately, it was sold to a gentleman that now resides in California and he basically turned it into a location to warehouse people that no one wanted. So those people would traverse all over that area out on Old State Road themselves relieving themselves on Old State, excuse me, Bridge Road. And so make a long story short, St. Louis County and city of Wildwood shut it down. Uh we were going to de demolish it at the cost to the taxpayers and we've basically run into some impediments to that. So, we're in a bit

of a stalemate, but the intent with the permission of the commission via motion second be to remove it from the agenda because there is no way at this stage in the condition of the building we want to basically accommodate any use of it. So I mean it's it's uh to review the cup but so isn't the cup done now because the the business is long in existence. How many cups the land? Oh they place no review cycle or sunset. So it's it's there until the city were to remove it. And every time we talked about that, the attorney representing the property owner, he is an attorney, generally him, calls and said, "I'm going to sue you all." And at one point, he threatened to sue all of us individually, that being the city administrator, the mayor, the director of planning, director of public works, etc., etc. So, he's not a pleasant person. So, it just keeps appearing. I mean it in perpetuity until he sells the land. Well, that's a good question. We could start the condemnation process again. Well, I'm not looking to create extra work for you. It just piqued my interest. I I really am not I mean, I don't care about it enough to make you do all that work. I was just curious. Well, it probably should be done because we maintain the property. We cut the grass a couple times a month so it looks presentable on Ridge Road and there is a functional skillare facility right next door that actually has people that live there and so we try to keep it passible. We also have to board up the building because the kids like to get into it and so we're spending taxpayers dollars to keep it from becoming a nuisance or problem

property or more of a problem property than it is. But condemning it, doing the demolition has a significant cost to it. So they say we've kind of um a holding pattern. Okay. Well, thank you for answering my question, Mr. Rubis. Can we put a lean on the property? We sure can. And that's something that's probably an idea that we should talk with Mr. Young about. And We have records of all the expenditures over the course of past whatever number of years and eventually we could basically call and leans are usually paid off when the property sold but you don't have to wait and we could pursue the ownership of the property and try to sell it. I'm sure somebody would like to do a residential development there. It's a large enough parcel to actually generate a number of home sites. All right. You piqued my curiosity as well. But so I'm look I've got Google pulled up here. Is a E or AEGIS health and rehab. Is that the still skillare facility that's operating? I think so. All right. It used to be called Old Forest. I know it's been sold. I just don't follow the change it. Yeah. Oh, I mean the building right there is on its what? Fourth name. Yeah. And it went up after I was on the commission. Yeah. I can tell you a story about the original developer and how we swore to our planning and zoning commission and city council. They were in for the long haul and the last wasn't founded in there and they had already sold it. So,

but so the building in question is it this one to the right? Yes. Okay. Yep. It's a like a two-story brick building. There's a water tower on it. Water tower has three service providers for telecommunication purposes. So, somebody's getting some money. Well, I think I like Jim's idea of the lean. I think something ought to be done, especially if we're spending my money on maintaining it. Well, Mr. Young's on a Zoom tonight and he's heard what you've said and we talk about it in more detail and then eventually city council will make that decision. Yeah, I've been kind of wondering about that too because that's been Yeah. 15 years now. Like I say, the the gentleman is um difficult to deal with and but that should not preclude us doing the right thing. Motion to adjurnn then. Thank you. All right. Motion by Commissioner Rubis, second by Commissioner Hfrey. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? Right. We'rejourned. Thank you. My ex-girlfriend. Listen, we're talking enemy.