Planning and Parks Committee - Regular Meeting

We are live and being recorded. Good evening. I'm Vicki Robleski. This is the City of Wildwoods Planning and Parks Committee. It's Tuesday, August 18th. We'll go ahead and begin by having roll call. Chair Robleski?

Here. Council Member Trottier? Here. Council Member Nyhan? Here. Council Member Farmer? Council Member Marshall?

Here.

Council Member Rambo? Here. Council Member Vanek? Here. Member Kummer. Here. And we have a quorum.

Thank you. Now, if we can get approval of the minutes from last meeting and everybody have a chance to look. Okay. Second, first and second by Council Member Marshall and second by Council Member Kummer. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Thank you. Do we have any public input? No one's here this evening, but is there anybody online that wants to speak?

If anyone online would like to speak, please use the raise hand feature and we will promote you to speaker. Thank you.

Go ahead and get started on the agenda. our action items tonight. On planning matters, we have three items that are ready for consideration. The first is architectural review board response to request for qualifications. And Ms. Rupto, I think you're going to be doing the speaking on that.

All right. Thank you, Madam Chair, and members of the committee. As previously discussed many times, City of Wildwood has had an architecture review board since 1997, so shortly after incorporation, and its work has greatly shaped the development of Town Center. The experts involved have been integral and planning and reviewing all the buildings and structures and walkways and making sure that it was all incorporated well. However, due to issues with term limitations and residency requirements and only a limited number of residents that are architects that could qualify to be on the board slowly over the years, since we were unable to get a qualified board, the requirements have gotten watered down. And it's still hard to find people to serve on it. So as part of a larger effort on part of the city council to reduce the number of boards, commissions, committees, and such, the architecture review board was one that was looked at and decided that maybe there's a better approach. And so- The architecture review board, as it stands, is to be dissolved. And in place of it, a city consultant for the city and the architecture review would then go to the planning and zoning, usually as part of the site development plan. And so they kind of work in concert with that. And so the consultant would work with the planning and zoning commission as well as the city to... review their architecture and such. And so at the first step of this recruitment process was the preparation of an RFQ, which the committee reviewed and approved on June 16th, and it was advertised on June 23rd through July 21st. Unfortunately, as a result of that, the city only received one submittal for the RFQ. On the bright side of that, It was from Gates Studio Architecture and Design, LLC. And Mr. Gates, the city's actually worked with previously on the pavilion at Community Park, and it was a positive working relationship. So that was the bright side to the only one response that we received from the RFQ. The department did meet with Hades Studio and discuss the new process and what the role would be. The conversation went well. We also discussed the matter of associated fees, which is kind of a more complicated question just because we have smaller plans, larger plans. And so we gave them a few things to look at to get back to us with their thoughts on a fee structure. And we expect that by the end of the month. However, given the limited response to the request for qualifications, this item is on tonight's agenda to just get feedback from the committee as to whether or not you would like the department to put this back out for another RFQ to possibly solicit more interest. And the department would seek direction that if the proposal, like if this proposal is acceptable based on current information, could the department proceed with changes to the code requirements that would be necessary in order to put this new process in place in lieu of the code requirements that we currently have for the architecture review board. That being said, if the committee does seek another direction, the department can hold off on code changes. Currently the changes are before the planning and zoning commission, but it was only for a public hearing and the new requirements have not yet been developed. So we're in a place where that can be delayed. And the current architecture review board is still in place and the department's requested that they be available till we get this worked out. So We do have the ability to pause on this if we want to go back out for additional, to see if we can generate any additional interest. But that being said, so tonight the department is looking for your feedback on this and as to whether or not we should, what direction we should go with this. And that concludes the department's presentation, but we are available if you have any questions or

And I think from what you had indicated earlier, even though you were talking about fees, the fees would not be charged. Well, wouldn't people that are requesting the fees?

Yes, that's correct. The goal is to have... some sort of deposit when people apply and, you know, lesser projects would end up costing less, like it would be based off of the architect's fees. And so if we had a flat rate for deposit, then the money that would be deduced, like the fees would be deducted from that deposit. And then if there was excess, it would be returned to the applicant if it was a huge project that required you know, a lot of consulting or back and forth and such, and it went over said deposit, then we would reach back out to the applicant and request, um, a new deposit, um, of, you know, another guesstimate of what it would cost. And that's part of what, uh, aid studio is reviewing right now is to kind of be able to give us a guesstimate on a fee structure that we could then put out to people. Um, so we hear back with, from them today with a few questions regarding, um, some of the plans and such. And so hopefully we'll be able to get that worked out.

And then before I open it up, after meeting with them, did you have a recommendation for the group?

I think that they have a great background for it. I think that they were pleasant to meet with. I think that they are qualified. And we have a good working relationship with them from the community park development. I would refer to Director Foonage or Mr. Newberry.

Additional thoughts?

Madam Chair and members of the committee, as noted in their response, Kevin Gates actually worked on the pavilion, was one of the architects. I designed it for community park by the playground. I found him at that time to be receptive to the input received from the designer, which was the young gentleman from Charlottesville, Virginia. And the work that they did went through our architectural review board when there was five architects and on the most part received very positive feedback from our architects about just the quality of the product, meaning the set of plans. So I have a high degree of confidence in this particular response. I also would note that it's only one, and that's always a little disappointing. So collectively, we talked, and the thought was, if you want to try, we can proceed forward as we've talked with this particular firm being our architect consultant. We can go back out and see if we can garner some additional interest. or if you feel like this may be just an untenable approach, we can start over.

And if we went with them, what would be the time period, or would there be a time period to actually?

It's on a year-to-year basis.

Okay, comments or questions from the group? Okay, Council Member Trenny.

Do you think that since we put this out for only one month, that smack dab in the middle of summer, There's a possibility that maybe a second round. It seems like we have time. There's no urgency to make a decision on this, at least for a moment.

Yes. I would agree with what Ms. Ripita said. Our standing architectural review board, which only has now one architect on it, has been advised by the department, don't pack your bags and leave. You still need to get your bag. And we'll probably need you through at least the summer. So they're all on board. We said, okay. And that may be part of the reason, Mr. Trier. We were kind of like surprised we only got one because we sent it to the AIA St. Louis chapter. We sent it to several of the architects we know that work regularly in the city. And so we were surprised.

I will say there is a ton of development in the St. Louis area currently, so... They could just be busy.

And you've all heard the lamentations by the Department of Planning and Parks, now the Department of Public Works, surveyors, engineers, architects, general contractors, subcontractors, everybody's so stretched thin. Maybe in some regard, we're lucky we got one response.

I think when it comes to architectural firms, same thing with engineering, when you act as a consultant for a city, it limits your work elsewhere. It's usually people that tend to specialize in something like this. So that could have something to do with it as well.

I have mixed emotions. I guess it doesn't hurt to go back out, but I also feel like while they've worked with the city before, they obviously had a good experience. you know, they stepped up and came forward and, you know, they've done a good job for the city. Maybe they're not crazy, crazy busy and maybe have a little more time and desire and, you know, to do a good job and don't have a million other things going maybe. So part of me is like, well, maybe that's a good fit and we should just, but I guess if we got others, we would still then have a choice and we could still always go to them, but.

Okay. I think it would be more concerning if they were an unknown.

So I guess the question I have is, I know you all know a bunch of the architects. Did anybody call and ask any more questions about it? Or some of these guys have already served on it eight years or so. I'm just wondering if they found it to be more than they wanted to bite off or not understanding what we were trying to do. The concept's not new. Years ago, they were doing it in Clarkson Valley. They had one of our architects doing their stuff for them. I'm just curious if there's a reason, because it is pretty selective work. If there's a reason you think that anything, we sent it to wrong people or it just wasn't, it didn't. The other thing is we really didn't have a track history to tell them how much business was there. So if they are as busy as we know they are, they're probably not going to jump into something and then realize they got something going on every other week with the city of Wildwood to do that. So I'm just curious. I'm perfectly happy to go with the ones that identified themselves. And as long as if somebody else came back in and you could run side by side, because it's not any kind of exclusive program. So I think if you've got somebody that's happy. The worst thing I think we can do is get somebody to submit for a bid and then not keep the bid. It just takes away from our ability to say we know what we're doing here to do it. So sometimes I think you have to make those kind of decisions. We've been in situations where you just can't get enough people to bid, and then we have people where you've got 20 people bidding on it. So somewhere in the middle I think keeps us good at procuring things in order to do it. That's just my two cents. I just didn't know if any of these people had been on it before or had their own firms would have called and said, hey, what's going on?

In response to your question, the only question that I received and I was listed on the RFQ for questions was from It was from Ms. Gates. I didn't receive any questions. I didn't even receive any questions from the architects that we specifically emailed. So no response at all. And again, July is a big month for vacation, so that could be it or could be lack of interest.

I don't know.

That's a big unknown.

Sounds good.

I guess I'm a little concerned that perhaps it's, you know, obviously this is public hearings. They're listening in, the Gates people. Is that what their name is? Gates Studio. And that they realize that they're the only bid and that they might perhaps, perhaps, I'm not saying, run up their costs because they know that there's no other game in town. So that's my only concern.

And I think that if it was outrageous, that would probably steer us towards going back out for more submittals.

Yeah, I understand. But it's a concern.

And Madam Chair, generally speaking, we've used architects for some of our projects, not recently, but we generally know their charge per hour, their professional rate. So if we get something back that's out of skew with that, it's like, well, that doesn't work for the city. Well, we certainly aren't here to take the development community down the pearly path, so to speak. We want good architectural services at a reasonable price.

This isn't a decision, obviously, to go with this one person, but to review their proposal later.

Well, we've reviewed it. As I mentioned, have they come back with their costs? Not yet. If the cost is reasonable, we would then be back with the formal recommendation for you all to consider.

And then it will go to council. So it's quite some time. But in that particular case, it will come out of the developer's money. And they're going to have their architects work with this architect if there's any questions. So probably a lot of them, they're already working with any of the potential developers, kind of limits them from being in the game as well.

And that's kind of the disconnect right now is that we have an architectural review board with one practicing architect. have a Department of Planning staff that has none. And so we have architects talking to people that aren't necessarily architects. And it's a complex field. Just the terminology for the different components of a building between eaves and soffits and baseboard, it works better when the language is understood by both speaking parties.

And Council Member Rambo, you've been wanting to say something.

That's right. They could just be busy and it would make some sense to run through this again. But having said that, I agree with Tracy and Ed. You guys thoroughly rang them out and it sounds like we couldn't have a better candidate and It's unfortunate that there's only one, but it sounds like a great one. And I don't know that we need to put you guys through a lot more hoops to maybe come up dry or come up with another... I don't know that you'll find a better... It doesn't sound like it's easy for you to find a better candidate. So my inclination is to say, let's just vote to move these folks forward. I think it would be... It would be counter to everything you said, which was uniformly positive across the board to think that they would suddenly jack up their rates a whole bunch. I mean, they might try to get a couple extra bucks, but that's probably that's not professional. And I don't think it's a huge concern. So that's my that's my spiel.

hearing possibly you want to move forward as long as the costs are reasonable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two points. First, Ms. Gates, Jennifer Gates, she's on the Board of Adjustment at the City of Webster-Groves, which I kind of like because she has municipal experience. She knows what it's kind of like to be on the other side. So I think that's pertinent experience. And what I would ask tonight, if there is an inclination to move forward is, basically endorse the candidate conditioned on the fee rate. And that it would return to the committee as soon as September for final action.

Okay, same thing. I want to make that motion.

So moved.

Okay. We have Council Member Marshall first and Council Member Nye second on the motion. Any discussion before we go? Okay, all in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Okay.

Thank you.

I'll move forward on that. Next on the agenda, we talked about this last month, which was reducing the mailing radius for public hearings and meetings of the city. And Mr. Newberry asked to have another month just to kind of think through the details. So bringing it back again tonight for us to discuss.

Thank you, Madam Chair. You just said the first half of my presentation for me. As Madam Chair mentioned, this was discussed at the committee's meeting in July. Just as a brief reminder to the committee members, the current regulations that stipulate the mailing radius for public hearings and certain public meetings state that the minimum mailing radius is 3,000 feet within the subject property and allows the department some flexibility up to 5,000 feet on a case-by-case basis. So those are the current regulations. As the chair mentioned, the department brought this to the committee at its July meeting to discuss the potential of reducing the mailing radius for various number of reasons relative to the cost of postage and people getting notification for properties that have proposals that are from their perspective, nowhere near their property, et cetera. At the committee meeting in July, the department brought forth the recommendation to reduce the mailing radius to a minimum of 1000 feet with the flexibility of doing up to 3000 feet, particularly for properties within the large lot area, the lower density areas of the city. The committee discussed that recommendation and appreciated the, the desire to reduce the mailing radius, but encourage the department to consider a lesser distance than the proposed originally proposed 1000 feet so. In response to the committee's direction and some additional discussion from the department and some research conducted, the department is presenting to you tonight a recommendation that the mailing radius be at a minimum of 500 feet for all instances and giving the department, again, some flexibility to go up to 1,000 feet on a case-by-case basis depending on the circumstances of the location. the size of the property um and and the potential of an increased level of interest based on um the proposal and and again that's at the discretion of the department So that's the recommendation before you tonight, minimum of 5,000 feet up to 1,000 at the discretion of the department. And before concluding, just wanted to point out for a point of discussion, the department did provide in the memorandum a table that did an analysis of three different projects that were located in three distinct areas of the city, the town center, the suburban residential, the non-urban residential area, and then went through the exercise of measuring the number of postcards that would be generated based on the different measurements that are being discussed, 3,000 feet, currently 1,000 feet, the maximum now being proposed, 500 feet, the minimum being proposed now, And then fourth, we did a column to show the 185 feet. And the context of that is 185 feet is the minimum required by the state statute. But again, the city of Wildwood has always far exceeded the minimum required by state statute. So in conclusion, the department's recommending a reduced mailing radius of a minimum of 500 feet with some flexibility to go up to 1,000 feet when It sees fit. And with that, we'd love to hear your feedback and have any questions.

Thanks, Mr. Newberry. Last month, I think we were pretty unanimous in saying we were fine with reducing it unless people have comments tonight. I think we kind of left it up to Mr. Newberry to tell us what that number was. Any thoughts there?

So just a question. So we would send these out for the public hearing at planning and zoning. And then when it gets to city council, we send out postcards again for that public hearing.

So the practice and policy, both from regulation and from policy, is the mailings are for public hearing at planning and zoning commission. And then a month later, the The department prepares a recommendation report where the commission takes its first action, as you know, being on the Planning and Zoning Commission. We do send a mailer for that second meeting at the Planning and Zoning Commission as well, largely because if anybody spoke at the public hearing, they get included on the mailing list for when the decision, the first decision could be made by the Planning and Zoning Commission. And then after that, the next mailing is at the public hearing before the city council

for zoning matters where that's applicable um conditional use permits don't have a public hearing at city council so there's no no mailing for that i mean i was just curious you know we all know there are some very controversial developments that come through i'm wondering if you all have the ability that if you know it's going to be that way or you're already getting tore apart media and that kind of stuff that you would go bigger for that one at least one of those. And then you could certainly pair it back down. I mean, there's been a lot where we've got standing room only for it. And yet that we were not doing more than the 500 feet or the thousand feet before. So over the development of it, and there's so much more now with your technology and that type of stuff where people can go to the website and pull it down. I'm just curious, you should have the flexibility. If it's something you think that there's got different subdivisions weighing in on, My experience has been they don't even know what it's about. So that's the first comment that they know, you know, because I got all the verbiage in there. And then they'll call you and say, so what exactly is this or where is it? I'm thinking all you have to do is look at that. But they're not used to it. They just get it in the mail. And if they think about it, they'll call. So I was just curious if you thought there were some that were going to be controversial enough. you would do a bigger a bigger target if you needed to if say for an example it butted up against and the 500 only did half of the subdivision should you do the whole subdivision or not i don't know just curious well certainly we could um obviously i think we have that discretion even if the

motion and second tonight is to follow the 500 and 1,000 just because in certain instances we may capture a quarter of the property while we go beyond that. So I'd like to think as we talked at the last meeting between what Melanie and Travis did with the new projects component of the website and being able to sign up for any public hearing relating to a land use item. the social media, the website onto itself, the postings here, and more importantly, the posting on site. I think we're capturing a whole lot of the interested parties. I think the second part of all of this, if you look ahead and down the road, is to actually revamp the mailer. That was also too part of the discussion when we increased the radius. for mailing purposes to 3,000 to 5,000 was we were specifically told by certain council people, I want to see this, I want to see that. And as you know, we're packing that postcard with a lot of words. And it's just, so I would think if we're moving to a smaller mailing radius, I'd like to think we could do a better job on the mailer itself.

So maybe because you have the link down the website on the mail or put to stay in contact with that, they may elect to go to taking and receiving those. And then likewise, how many people have been a lot of people signing up for that so far? We've not implemented it yet, largely because we needed to finish some of the conversations. I just think the more you communicate that, like on the newsletters and stuff like that, there are people who will jump on there in order to kind of let them build it that way. So I think those are all good ideas.

Mr. Marshall, would you want that axle up to 1,500 feet for the discretion of the department or? Because the original proposal in July was 1,000 as a minimum and 3,000 as a maximum. And then the group thought that that probably was still too much. I mean, we're open. We're doing $3,000 to $5,000. So any reduction is going to be, I think, a cost savings.

I would just give you the flexibility for it. But I do know, and I was in those meetings, the people that are asking for that are going to probably come to a public hearing and want to know why you're not doing that. So I'm just saying, I'm giving you the flexibility. I think it's a great way to do it. But I'm good with whatever. I think you did a great job writing it up, too. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. I know this is all over the map. Typical year, typical number of cards and such. Roughly, very roughly, what's the savings likely to be if we go with the 500 and 1,000 over the current system? Just Paul. $5 or $500,000. Somewhere in between there, I guess. Yeah, that's good.

Well, it was $22,000. I hope it's $500,000. I can't guarantee that.

75%. Yeah, I can say it.

That was an annual figure?

Because I can't get on for some dang reason, and so I'm playing around.

Last year it was $22,500. And going down to 1,000 feet is roughly $75,000.

percent reduction except for town center okay so it saved 15 grand but historically we just haven't had a lot of stuff going on as much as we have now i mean there was a long period there where there was nothing and now every time you turn around somebody's coming back with with something which is all good but it's just a lot more work there's a lot more development um this is more about the postcard but is there a qr code on the postcard

So there is currently not a QR code on the postcard. We have implemented a QR code for some of the signs that we use, and that was a cost savings as well. So instead of the metal framed real estate signs with the mailboxes and the postcards in them, we got the high quality corrugated plastic signs and did a QR code to get folks to that public hearing. We've not gotten any feedback or any, you know, you know, you're trying to confuse us or you're, we didn't know how to use it. We haven't gotten any of that feedback on those and we've used them in some pretty prominently and a lot of public interest in those particular properties. postcard and less worried. Yes.

And so lightly interested and they see the big bowl, they're like, Oh, you were here on vacation.

So it's, it's a great question. And since Mr. Roon just brought it up, we kind of have our hands forced a little bit right now with the program that we use to make the postcards. You're going to laugh, giggle, hopefully it's Microsoft publisher. which hasn't been serviced by Microsoft for seemingly 10 plus years. But it works for us. They are taking the license away from that. And so we've already started looking and using other things that we have capabilities in doing, particularly Canva. We've been using Canva, which hopefully you all are familiar with, the online application. graphic design program that's easy to use. We've been using that for probably 10 years now. We were ahead of the game 10 years ago on Canva. And we think we can make a really nice looking, engaging postcard with those different components and making it be a little more graphical related, you know, identifying the address of the property and things like that. So we have started to look into those things because we can't use Microsoft Publisher anymore.

I wasn't done with my financial discussion. Everything will fly better in the near-term future if it has a cost-saving, if it's part of a cost-saving measure, if it has some cost savings. Play that up in the... if we move forward with this. But on the Coast Guard side, if we put a QR code and eliminate a lot of the information, we have to acknowledge that there's several hundred homes that don't even have internet and how offensive to be referred by the city IN THE FIRST PLACE. SO THAT'S JUST KIND OF AN ASIDE. BUT DO YOU NEED A MOTION ON THIS? BECAUSE I THINK THE 500 AND 1,000 MAKES SENSE IF WE REALLY WANT TO BUMP IT UP TO 1,500. I MEAN, IF IT'S AT THE DEPARTMENT'S DISCRETION AND THE BASELINE IS 500, MOST OF THE TIME IT WILL BE 500, I WOULD THINK. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE TOP END, WE CAN BE A LITTLE BIT LOOSER. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WITHOUT EXCEPTION, 500 IS THE MINIMUM.

I WAS GOING TO MAKE THE MOTION OF TAKE THE DEPARTMENT'S RECOMMENDATION. TRAVIS, WOULD YOU LIKE A LITTLE MORE ROOM, LIKE 1500 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? BEN SUGGESTED THAT.

I WOULD SAY THAT BASED ON THE ANALYSIS IN THE TABLE, THE ONLY CONCERNING DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN THE NUMBERS IS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESERVE IN ST. ALBAN, OFF OF HIGHWAY T, If we mailed it 500 feet, it would be 19 homes. As Mr. Marshall knows as part of those discussions and the other AMR and proposal and things in that area, definitely had a lot more folks interested in it than 19 folks. Then if you go to the 1,000 feet, it would be up to 42 folks or 42 postcards generated, which doesn't seem to me to be a great increase in that low density area. area with large lots surrounding. I agree.

I think 1500 feet, that's over a quarter mile. And if you're more than a quarter mile away, you're just a NIMBY that you don't like it driving by, as opposed to not liking it next door to you, right? It's a sort of a different class of thing. And so I'm going to, I'm comfortable with the 500 and 1000, unless somebody has an objection. So that's my motion.

That's my returnee.

I just, I want to correct. If we go to 500 standard, that's a 90% reduction. Just to correct my 75%.

So it's more substantial. Okay, so it's...

If you do that over 5 years, it's probably 100%.

Okay, that's substantial.

I have another comment.

I like the QR code idea. I'm in town center. I'm involved with it. Before I was a council member, a lot of things that come up are close to me, so I always get the mailer, but several times. We didn't get the mailer until the day before the meeting, which is a complete waste of our city money. And it's nothing to do with the city, but it has to do with the post office. And I think the QR code is big. I think a lot of people are familiar with how to use it. And I think it's really big that it goes on the sign that we put on the property that's coming up. Because I've seen a lot of people drive by it and read it. just boom and you're there because I get a lot of phone calls before I was even a council member did you get the mailer did you get the card no I didn't get it yes I got it well I didn't get it you know I'm gonna call city but yeah I think with the way the mail system is that the QR code would be a big would be helpful to the citizens but I have no objection to lowering the

Councilman Marshall, I think you have two dumb questions.

Is the QR code, does it have to be approved legally as a posting that we have to follow when we do the mail posting or not? I don't know. I'm just saying it probably would be more. I think it's very convenient, but I just don't know if the legal definition of doing a public hearing posting allows that to be to override any of the other paragraphs you have to put in there. Don't know.

Currently in the zoning ordinance, we have specific requirements, what describes what has to be said on the sign. And it does not include a QR code because it's really a legacy component. So what I would suggest maybe is the motion on the floor be acted upon and then a follow-up motion be by the committee members to authorize the department to investigate changing the sign and changing the postcard formats to be more, for lack of a better term, user-friendly.

So that's best as a separate motion, or otherwise I would modify mine, but I think it's better to leave it the way it is. So I didn't get a second. Maybe I'm...

Okay, and you want to make the motion?

Yeah, I already made a motion.

We're waiting for a second. Okay.

Only if I can get a discussion after that. This is just really stupid, but what about we leave it where it is for town center, but on these others, maybe putting a, looking at what historically and say, we mail out 150 cards. So we come up with a number so that like on highway T you get up on the ridge line because the properties are bigger anyway. So it's still a defined cost reduction. But it would allow the department to look at it and say, you know what, you know, 150 or something like that in those areas where you do know that you have more houses than just somebody sitting on a couple hundred acres. It takes all of the distance away. Just a thought that maybe you look at a hard number of an average in the non-urban areas and see if that would be a factor. Thank you.

So I like where you're going, but I don't like when we give the city discretion to pick and choose who to send these to. So perhaps a better approach is take town center down to 500 with discretion to broaden it based on project scope. Take suburban residential down to 1,000 and leave non-urban residential at 3,000 or even expand that.

from the department's perspective, that's fine. Because at the end of the day, suburban and non-urban are going to be a manageable number regardless of what that distance. It's the town center ones where we're doing $1,500.

And I think that's where the cost is. Yeah, exactly. So I would hardly put town center at $500. unless it is some catastrophic project. But I'd like to keep the discretion at a minimum so that we're fair, so that nobody can come back and say, well, you chose to send it to more people on this, but I didn't care about that. You only sent it to, you know.

Mr. Trottier, somebody else say it. Right.

I would eliminate discretion, and I would use a tiered approach based on the master plan land use category. And I would even vote to bump non-urban residential up to 5,000 if, because I think that would get closer to what Mr. Marshall is saying about ensuring you're not going to add that many mailers distance is much greater than the actual properties.

There's some there's some 200 200 plus properties within 5,000 feet of something if it's 3 acre minimums so that's a couple hundred postcards I don't know what we how much how many we currently send her but we're saving would be saving 1300 in the town center.

So I'd save 1300 to send an extra hundred area.

Yeah, I mean, I don't strongly disagree, except that I live in a non-urban area and I don't care about, I mean, something 3,000 feet away. I would be a NIMBY myself worrying about something like that, unless it had an effect on the watershed or it was going to be a clear cut situation or something like that. There's very few times I would have a concern about it, but that's my personal feeling and

So, so like a smaller number, I just think it should be tailored to the land use, not one fixed category or fixed.

So I'm going to, should I withdraw my motion?

And somebody was going to say, we have a motion on the floor. So we have that you either have to withdraw it.

If we're going to have, I'm fine with the motion as it stands, but Matt makes a good suggestion. I'm fine with the motion also, but it's the department of what they could do with it.

What would you guys like?

Well, kind of two, We stayed 500 feet for town center, 3,000 for suburban.

No, no, no, no. Are you asking what I suggested? 500 for town center, 1,000 for suburban, and then non-urban?

3,000. 3,000 is fine. Okay. Can I revise my motion, or does it have to stand? It didn't get a second yet, so that's my new motion is what Matt said.

Okay. So we're saying... 500 for town center 1000, 1000 for suburban and non urban 3000. Yes. Okay. Anybody want to second that motion? Okay. Council member second. Any more discussion? Okay. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed? I'm staying.

Chair, the department would respectfully request a motion authorizing it to investigative change to the postcard and the posting sign we place on the property and bring back to the committee for comment.

Okay. Can we get a motion for the second piece? Okay. Council Member Nyhan and second by Council Member Traviere. Any discussion before we vote? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Any abstain? Thank you. Both are passed.

Thank you for your question.

Okay, the next item on the agenda is really recent development trends within the city of Wildwood, including zoning authorizations for building permits. This actually department.

I just have a couple of updates that I think are particularly pertinent, you might like to hear. First, I had a conversation with the development entity that's working in the Pisterfield portion of Westland Acres, and we gentleman was calling to advise that they haven't forgotten about us. They know that there's a process ahead, but there is one property that they've been unable to get under contract. It just so happens to kind of be in the center of the 50 plus acres that is in Wildwood. They've been working with the property owners extensively, and they think they're going to have a solution here in a very short period of time. They were hoping before Labor Day, but I the impression I got. So this can be an update in working in this Chesterfield portion of West Linn Acres and really have done some changes up there. But again, they're caught right now with one property. In terms of the Boy Scout site, which is on Valley Road and joins the northern portion of the Brent Workplace subdivision, Mr. Newberry and I met with Lombardo Homes, and they're going back to a three-acre plan with no overland district. So from the perspective of the department, that was the original plan that Mr. Newberry and I saw. Rating-wise, it was the least intrusive I think I've seen in a long, long time. Now, they also are not intending to use any of the stub streets. Good.

You'll love that, Matt. What do the lots look like? Three acre, but I mean, of the three acres, that's kind of like a ridge, isn't it?

Yeah, they're going to, as you come up Valley Road, there's that one ridge, then there's the creek, the drainage area, and then there's that long ridge that goes up. So they're going to try to basically use both of those. I think with having to cross the creek now, they may put a few on that east-west roadway, but we haven't seen a plan yet, but they are working on

John Gerstle, repairs in case I want to move down. John Gerstle, So that's been remember the pulpy home one I was a big deal that was. John Gerstle, Right so time back and that's when they were trying to do both sub streets and then come in off a place i'm the one way or come up through loan cabin connector roads and.

John Gerstle, pulled the hope that the opinion that money can buy everything. So they thought they could have access from pretty much every portion of the site onto existing roads. It was ill-fated, to say the least. Just to kind of update you on the luxury villas at Latitude North 38, the September City Council meeting, the appeal to denial by the Planning and Zoning Commission is scheduled. As you know, we've been working with the development entity, as well as the city on trying to come up with a master stormwater plan that would address their development site, Main Street, Village Green Phase 2, Village Green Phase 1, and City Hall. DEC, the engineering firm, is working on that. They think it'll probably be another month before they're ready to have something that they can submit to MSD for their review and comment. So it's a slow process. And slow process also means that the plans for the playground are kind of contingent on the stormwater component. So those have slowed down and are in step now with this snail space. So my apologies. But if we figure out the stormwater, basically address here at City Hall, Main Street. So we're just planning ahead, so to speak, and hopefully we can be patient abroad. Certainly we can do something to speed up at least the playground component. At the September meeting of this committee, I'll have the final bid for the restroom facility as recommended by the committee. Looks like it's going to be somewhere around $250,000. So the changes that were made didn't necessarily increase it substantially. It certainly, I think, made it more functional. But I'll have that information for you in September. And the last item I just wanted to mention. So you live in Wildwood. You know it's a great place to be. To point it brightly, Fisher and Frickto, 30 home sites they have. Half of them? About 14 is what we heard last. 14 of them sold already. And that is without a display. And for the most part, without streets, you can look at the lots.

How many are moving out on the other side of the street?

Streets are there now. It always happens that way.

So keep up the good work, folks. People like coming out here and calling it home. If there's any questions on any of the others, I'll be glad to answer them.

Any questions before we move on to Parks Matters? First on the agenda for parks is trail repairs and resurfacing, including enclaves at Cherry Hills and Wawa Greenway Corridor, State Route 100.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair and members of the committee, I'll preface my statements by saying, as one grows old, maybe they get a little grumpy. So I did some preaching at the start of this particular memo in the fact that for many years, the practice had been to balance the budget at the end of the current fiscal year for the future fiscal year by underestimating park maintenance costs, and then always kind of saying we'll catch it at mid year. So from the perspective of the department, it certainly agreed to that because that's what those in charge of the budget had asked. That also creates a problem. Because at mid-year then, there's an explanation of why are we spending so much on park maintenance? Well, we're spending so much on park maintenance because we underestimated the cost of that maintenance. And it was known at the time, at least internally and from the perspective of the department, put us in an awkward position. That awkward position led us to defer maintenance in many ways. Because again, you're, as the oversight for spending a fair amount of money, you have to justify what we do. And if the budget for a park maintenance is $450,000 and we're doing $600,000, that doesn't necessarily bode well for you if you're asked about it. Why is it so much? I'd prefer to have, if we're spending $550,000 on park maintenance, they have a budget for $550,000. And based upon the information we give you each month, you could track what we're spending over the years. So again, it goes back to we deferred maintenance and we can't on these projects that have been identified for your consideration tonight. Probably the worst case of it all to me is the Rock Hollow Trail. It is what it is. We built a trail in the middle of the creek that used to be Lawlor Ford Road. Everybody calls it Zombie Road. And we've done our best to kind of work together, keeping the trail stable, the bridges in place, and arresting erosion around those hard structures. But we've gotten to the point where we need to step in and do a pretty major clean out of the creek bed itself, restore some of the large rocks around the base of the bridges, and then just do, from my perspective, some ditching to redirect some of the water to other locations. The department, along with the arborist, city arborist, and Tehill Construction went down to get a thorough review of all 13 bridges, and that's the proposal you have before you. It is $57,000, which is a great deal of money, but it's inclusive of all the problem areas. And we do have funding. Bless you. We do have funding in the capital improvements program. It's under trail repair resurfacing. And so the intent would be to use some of that money for these particular projects. showing is just a collection of photographs we took the day that we visited the Rock Hollow Trail and the different locations. Ridge 5 is probably the worst. That's the next slide, maybe. Somewhere down. That's really a road. As you can see, the edge of the creek now is at the edge of the trail. That needs to be stabilized. And then if you get to bridge five, it's where the creek that comes down and does like almost a 60 degree turd. And it's really kind of washed out that stabilizing boulders. Boulders are downstream somewhere. If they were close by, we'd use them, but we don't know where they are. So that's the first one. The second, As you know, over the last couple of years, due to roadway projects, we've deferred resurfacing some of our wild green lake corridor, which is Route 100 trails. And the trail system that's part of the enclave is at Cherry Hills. The one at Cherry Hills has had a slurry placed on it. It's not been resurfaced since it was initially installed now. probably some 15 years ago. The intent is to basically repair the cracks and depressions and then resurface it. We have a particular problem on that trail system at the large lake. The lake's filling. I don't know if it's got a lot of silt in the basin in the in the structure itself, but it's rising. And so a portion of the trail, as I've been told, is underwater at times, particularly after heavy storms. And the lake, the basin is full. Scott Hummel, our superintendent of streets, Trevor, excuse me, Jacob Hill of the T-Hill Construction, the trustees and I are meeting out there tomorrow. to take a look at it. I don't have a cost yet, but as I mentioned in the memorandum, T. Hill is one of our contractors we do as part of our annual maintenance. So we have their wages and cost of equipment on a per hour basis. And we've had real good success with T. Hill. And the final one is the smallest of the bunch. That's the circular set of sidewalk segments that are north of the pavilion and community park, provide the link between the playground, pavilion, creek, and they're kind of separating. Now, saying that, I'd like to think we may be able to mud jack those and even them out And that's how old it is. We opened Community Park in 2015. So about 11 years now.

Yeah, that happened.

And for whatever reason, it seemed to occur quite quickly, which makes me think, what's going on there? Because when we hadn't had Chris Hager, and Daisy Chansky, they're certified inspectors for park property and park equipment. They didn't note it on any of their monthly inspections until recently. So just kind of odd how it all happened at once. So collectively we've got about between Rock Hollow and this particular about $65,000 of cost HAB-Jacques Juilland, mean, some of which can be covered by our capital improvements program I don't have a cost yet for any plays a cherry hill system. HAB-Jacques Juilland, Scott would like to think we could do that on a time and materials and according to Jacob hill we could save quite a bit of money doing it that way versus a proposal, because again we have them under contract. So the request of the department is authorization to proceed. Proceed doesn't mean immediately. If there is a favorable recommendation from the committee members, we'll have that at city council in September.

What's the amount in capital improvement?

$150,000.

You said it was $65,000 in costs, but we have available $150,000. Is that what you said? Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry.

We have basically three projects that could be spent on. The enclaves, the Greenway Corridor being one, the circular walk and community park being two, and then Rock Hollow being three. I have estimates, proposals on two of the three. But again, our street superintendent thought, given the circumstances in the enclaves, time and materials would be a better approach. Scott's been here for 25 plus years, does all of our concrete slab replacement oversight, our resurfacing of our rural asphalt streets. I have a high degree of confidence. When he tells me something, I take it as gospel, so to speak.

Okay, questions for Dr. Hulage?

I think the Mud jacking would be much smarter than tearing out all of that sidewalk. It's not that old. It's not like you got heavy weight on it. So my guess is, if you remember, we did that in Wild Horse in the main streets and they were putting the tar underneath there and the stuff was like a geyser. 300 feet down. So he had no idea what was underneath there and how it got there. But I would think that there, that would be a pretty easy repair from a, because it's not, it's not a street. It's a sidewalk. And I think they could get in and level up. So I think that'd be a great suggestion to go.

My intent would be to start there, but I want to give you the worst case scenario in the event that Scott tells me or someone in public first tells me that my Jackie won't work here for the following reasons.

That would be good, but showing you those pictures of that pebbled new sidewalk doesn't really justify tearing it all out to put new concrete in.

So it almost seems like somebody did drive a heavy truck across. It's just, I wish I knew why it happened and why it happened so quickly, but I don't.

It's been a terribly wet year and the ground is saturated. It's bottom land. I mean, the whole dang park is bottom land, right? Yeah. But, but yeah, it, it, They're seldom doing traditional mud jacking these days. They just drill a hole and put in closed cell foam. And this foam weighs nothing. And it displaces whatever it needs to displace. The sidewalk comes back up. And if it lasts 15 years, we've still saved a ton of money over tearing out the concrete. And so this is a good solution.

And you're not parking a car on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just, to me, a lot more sense.

If there's an inclination on the committee to move forward, again, this would go to city council for full discussion. The department would ask for authorization for Rock Hollow based upon the proposal, the timing materials at the enclaves, and then mud jacking. Sorry, my turn.

No, that's what I call it, but it's not mud. That's all I'm saying.

Anyway, eliminate the proposal and go to a less cost approach with the mud jacking if you manage to park.

Just curious on when will the construction begin for the Rock Hollow? Yeah.

If City Council meets on the 14th, first reading, second reading would be in October. So I would like to think maybe we could get down there mid-October before the weather turns on us.

Would that be better than waiting another six months after the spring rains?

I don't want to overstate it, Mr. Vanek, but we've waited too long. Okay, perfect. I can't emphasize that enough. Sure. I didn't know. And I'll tell the story one more time, and then I'll be gone by the time you probably want to hear it again. So 2008, survey crew had been down on Rock Hollow for weeks, laying out the trail, laying out the bridges, putting the stakes, putting the flags. Hurricane came up through the city of Galveston, followed the Mississippi River up. We got eight inches out there on a Sunday morning. The survey crew went out to finish up and it was all gone. Oh, by the way, the creek changed its direction. Now it was all over the place.

All the surveying tags and everything.

So it is a volatile environment. And I really, I'm not trying to spend the taxpayers money, but it is probably, as I say in the report, I think it is the most scenic area in the region. And even Susan Trotman, who is the executive director of Great Rivers Greenway, when we did the ribbon cutting, she said, this is my favorite place to ride. And she's seen all the trails.

And when I left working for Great Rivers Greenway, the last day I left, she said, going to Wildwood, she said, Rock Hollow is the best trail in the region. So...

Yeah, we have some jewels here, honestly. We just were talking about people wanting to live here. Why do they want to live here? Because of our park and trail system, and it's an investment that really pays off in terms of everybody. I mean, everybody's quality of life is raised by the system. I think we should not ever defer maintenance the way that we do. I mean, just since I've been on council, I've seen it happen a lot of times, and I just don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's right, and I don't think it's smart to because suddenly instead of five grand for a repair, we've got to pay $50,000 for a repair because we didn't do it the first time. So I would happily make that the motion to move forward, figure out what you need to figure out and bring this to council in September.

Second to the motion. Okay. Um, I do have a question, um, before we do so, um, if that's okay, I'm fine with the motion. In turn, like when I read all this, I was a little surprised because green trails is not a trail that I go on. I walk the trails every day, a couple of different directions, but that was kind of, oh my reading it. And it made me wonder, since I wasn't aware, we hadn't talked about it that I recall in the last year, maybe if it was brought up, I didn't realize, but how do we as a committee know something's coming? Like if these are the, what you're considering the next three major things we need to do, and we have 150,000 and this is 65 that we're looking at, I get that. But what else is out there that is next month that we're going to hear about? Just, you know, to help understand what we're going to need in the future.

So in 2024, 2025, part of the budget process during the fall of those years, the department brought you, not you, but brought to the committee and to city council a list of priority to repair items. HAB-Masyn Moyer- set aside, but every one of those couple of years we we basically redirected that money out to read 100 to pay for the overage caused by the that particular project so. HAB-Masyn Moyer- This year you'll get a list the list is pretty small, if we do these projects are. HAB-Masyn Moyer- For us, how polite is because. Scott Hummel in our superintendent of streets and Jacob Hill of T Hill construction. They basically have walked the Hamilton car. Greenway that goes from Rockwoods reservation to El Foster trail. That's in good shape. They think maybe, you know, it's maybe some crack sealant on a couple of the larger cracks, but all in all that's okay. The Greenway corridor route 109 seems to be okay for whatever reason. And that's our first trail we did on the east side of Route 109 from Route 100 up to Lafayette High School. They seem to be okay. So I'm thinking collectively, notwithstanding what's in Community Park, you may not see any priority list, but here's ones to think about in the future. Because again, I think both Public Works and Planning and Parks have talked, we need to get a regular schedule together. So we're not 10 years. We need to do this. It's 15 years. We need to do that.

Okay.

Thank you.

Same subject. So last year I wasn't on admin and public works. We had over a million dollars of overrides on public work projects that we'd waited 10 years to get funded. And unfortunately, the money had to come out and you had to do it when you did the 109. So I thought even last year that was a big mistake, but otherwise we'd lose the federal funding. I kind of have the same feeling about the 109 roundabout now. However, I think as you make your presentation to the council on this, This kind of goes back to what Matt said. I would show the fact that something as simple as Anniversary Park, that resealing, putting that off by six months costs an additional, what, $3,000 more. So when you look at projects that, you know, that amount of money and, you know, everything going down and through there, none of that's going to cost any less. Every bad rainfall like we had the other night, any of that stuff is just going to do more and more damage. So I just think repositioning to say that, look, these things happen and this is a problem when you delay it. And I think we had a rightful reason to do that last year in order to try to get that done. But that doesn't mean... No, I just think that... And you know this, for 25 years, I think we need a park and stormwater runoff tax, but nobody has the gumption to go out and do it. But that would be $3 million a year if we could get a half a cent through there. And you know how hard it was when we got the capital stuff there. People thought you were nuts, but now that's $3.5 million a year. And we knocked on every door in the city to get that through. So I just think that we've got to make a commitment that they are fantastic and but we can't afford to pay for it out of the reduced revenues we're getting from the county and the state on an annual basis. And if the more we delay it, the more it's going to cost us. But I just think a couple of those examples would help them understand how quickly that goes bad.

So Mr. Marshall mentioned $3,000 increase. Think of it as about a 10% increase in the cost of the project. $3,000 on our budget may not sound like much, but Multiply that 10% across every project that you don't do or defer to.

All the construction last year was 20%. Every override on the federal money, that was a 20% hit to the city. And that was bid in December. And come June, we had to pay 20% more. So that's just how bad, and I don't know whether it's engineering or just a road cruise or getting the contractors to do it, but it's not going away. Thank you. Okay.

Any other comments before we go ahead and take a vote on the motion? We need to restate the motion, but we did. Okay. All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed? Any abstain? Okay. Thank you. Okay. Next, let's see where we're at. Down to the number four. Okay. Okay. We're going to talk about Bellevue Farms, the city of Wildwood's lease of the 100-acre property from St. Louis County.

Thank you again, Madam Chair. Madam Chair and members of the committee, the department has prepared for your consideration tonight a memorandum relating to a property that the city has leased from St. Louis County since 2014. Ms. Ripito is going to voice the master plan. To give some context or background, since 1996, St. Louis County and the City of Wildwood had a very favorable recommendation, relationship, excuse me, relative to the Merrimack River Valley. I say that because in 1996, St. Louis County had purchased a number of properties in the Glencoe area through federal funds after the major flood. The county was no longer in the business of providing municipal parks, and so they offered those properties to the city, and the city accepted them. Those properties now are the Al Foster Memorial Trailhead. After that, St. Louis County, their Department of Parks and Recreation, came to the city and said, between GRG, Great Rivers Greenway, Missouri Department of Natural Resources and us, Great Rivers Greenland, we have approximately 400 acres in this area called Somby Road. None of them either have the authority nor funding to proceed forward. Authority, GRG doesn't construct. MDNR and St. Louis County, we don't have the funds to move forward. The city council concurred that it was worth a try. We received a grant through the Municipal Forest Act Commission. We have leases with all three of those entities. And as we've talked, we now have premier trails in all of St. Louis. Following that success, the county came back and said, what about Bellevue, excuse me, Bluffview Park, which at the time was called Packwood Park. 100 acres off of Old State Road. City Council concurred. We've done two phases, both funded through grants from the Municipal Park Grant Commission. And we have probably one of the prettiest views of the Crescent Valley from the end of the trail. And we have something that gateway off-road cyclists love. We have basically for them, the off-road cyclists, the trails and things that they had longed for for many years to have available. Thinking that we were invincible, we went to Bellevue Farms. And that's where we kind of ran into an issue. First, Bellevue Farms isn't in the city of Wildwood. It adjoins it, but it's not a property. It's part of the lease. Then County Executive Charlie Dooley said, and you're not gonna annex it either. We're keeping it. So we've been working for obviously now almost 12 years to come up with a solution. In terms of grants, there's always priorities here in the city, and grant funding hasn't become available. We've tried to work with other organizations like Great Way Off-Road Cyclists to help us develop the park. One came to fruition, Friends of Bellevue. group of residents in the Sherman area of unincorporated St. Louis County, and they have done a wonderful job. They have worked on invasives, establishment of prairie, creating new plantings, natural settings, et cetera, et cetera, and just maintaining and watching over the property. We spend about $15,000 a year down there maintaining it. And quite frankly, I just don't see for the foreseeable future us doing anything there. And with partner park now, a property in Wildwood by the city of Wildwood, the thought was if we have that $15,000, we could do the invasive removals and start the process there versus elsewhere. So tonight the department is presenting a recommendation to the committee that would allow it after city council action, contact St. Louis County and say that we want to terminate the lease. If there's any questions, answer them.

Questions?

Where does it go? St. Louis County. Back to St. Louis County. And they'll land bank it like they have. Just hold it until something comes along that either they get funding or someone steps forward.

And currently we cannot access this park, correct? Because I think I've driven down there. It's no trespassing.

As a council person, you sure can. It's not open to the public, but you as a council person.

Yeah, I got super confused. I couldn't even find it for a while. Luckily a neighbor was I don't know.

Council Member Krantz had the same problem. Yeah, I did.

Yeah, I like criminals. No, I didn't have to have to transverse. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, it's over here. And I'm like, it's just over there.

And yeah, I yeah, I would be with you 100 percent.

Council Member Marshall was first, I think.

And then I was just going to is the house gone? Yes, the house was burnt down. An arsonist. I remember going through that back before we ever took it on. So a dumb question. In that agreement with them, is it specifically stated or is this Charlie saying you'll never be able to annex it in?

It's in the agreement, the lease agreement. We can negotiate it out.

I just think it's another one of those deals where the county doesn't have any money either. So, you know, we're just going to be landmassed if you could rework an agreement to get it to where it someday could be. I mean, I think that would be another one. They don't want it. And if they land massive, that's fine too, but could we land massive and not do anything more? I don't know. I'm just throwing out there that if it's in the contract that way, now they don't have any money and it'd be interesting. I don't know that we need it by any means, but if they're just going to hold on to it, I don't think anyone else is going to come in and try to do anything with it.

Well, Harold Donnelly, who is integral in the, Open Space Council of Greater St. Louis donated the property to St. Louis County with a set of restrictions. Primarily, that it be used for a passive open space generally. We had that argument with Friends of Bellevue when Gork was interested in developing their trail network there. We moved them to Bluffview and it's worked out wonderfully. Certainly we can go back to St. Louis County and say, here's the conditions for us to proceed on with the lease agreement. And the department would be glad to do that. All they can say is no. And then the next step would be under the lease agreement, there's a termination clause, a process.

Yeah, I'm fine with letting it go back to them. I'm just curious that, If they were that specific about it, will they have that same view now 15 years later? I don't know. And if it's just being land banked, if something changes down the road, it still won't be in Wildwood if you don't have that opportunity.

Council Member Rambo?

Yeah, this is really sad for me. There is a spectacular view and it's a very long, long one. It's one of the nicest in There's already a mushroom that popped up there, a piece of development in that green, so it's not going to stay that way forever. those people have worked really, really hard to get the trails cleared and get rid of some invasives and just improve the property. And I feel like we're leaving them hanging. And so my first question, I had a couple of questions. My first one is, what does this do to the Friends of Bellevue in terms of their activities and arrangements there? Because if you pull up at the gate, before you get out of your vehicle, there's three other cars there asking what the heck you're doing. And so they watch it like hawks. And there are all those buildings there that could potentially be problematic for the surrounding folks if homeless people start moving in and whatnot. And I think the Friends of Bellevue keep an eye on that. So I said enough. What do you think about the Friends of Bellevue?

I think collectively, us three, it pains us to basically be standing before you and say, let's let 100 acres of wonderful, mature woodlands, pasture, go. I'd like to think we could do something. I've been thinking that now for 12 years. It also pains me very much because friends at Bellevue have invested a lot. And that's equity they've invested sweat and time.

Yeah, that's my question.

Yeah. And so with St. Louis County Honorate, they have a relationship with St. Louis County, a very good relationship. In fact, when we were talking about Gork potentially using the property, they went to St. Louis County trying to stop it. It's your property, stop this. And county's response was we have a lease and it's not prohibited under the lease. My feeling is I've not talked to the friends of Bellevue. I wanted to talk to you first, and I think that's appropriate. You're the leadership of the city. Eventually, that conversation has to be held. And from the department's perspective, I'd like to think again that St. Louis County went honored. I don't know. We could certainly make that an some type of condition. Hey, we'll finish this out this year, but as a condition of that, you'll let the friends of Belleville continue the good work that they've done.

I think that's a great gesture on the city's part, if nothing else, because we're leaving them hanging. And yeah, we didn't make any real promises, but there was the implied promise of continuity because we had this long-term lease. And so I think that's the minimum that we could and should do for those good people. And I agree with Ed, if the county is just going to land bank it anyway, it would be great if we could figure out a way to actually annex it. It's not going anywhere. If our tax situation changes, if we get a half cent sales tax for parks and stormwater and so on and so forth, there could be money in the budget to have another nice park. And I would hate to kind of leave that go. Although I got a feeling that no other municipalities are chomping at the bit to take on this lease. So it's probably just going to sit there. But I guess my main focus is trying to ensure as best we can that it doesn't degrade in the meantime. And it sounds like we can probably try to do something along those lines.

We've been holding our own Because obviously $15,000 doesn't represent a lot of maintenance. We cut the fields. We keep the road passable. But other than that, we've not done anything. And everything else has been done by Friends of Bellevue.

But we paid money. We paid like 20 grand for the meadow rest, five acres or something like that.

And that money came through. They've been successful in obtaining at least one grant from the Missouri Department of Conservation. We've gotten about three or four. And that's covered much of what the work that has been done. But of late, the grants, we've not gotten any grants. And So they've been depending on organizations like the Open Space Council, Monarchs Forever, all of these different kind of nature.

Anybody with a buck.

Yeah.

So, and that was no, I'm confident that was no failure on the part of the department. We aggressively seek every grant we possibly can. And that continued, but the money just wasn't there. Is that an accurate assessment?

From our perspective. And also it's just like, well, we're making progress in terms of the invasives, but are we making progress in getting the park open to the public, which is the goal. Yeah.

And it would take a road and we're right back in the same parking lot.

We'd have to fix Hunt Street. Yeah. And we have to create a parking lot. And then we have to provide a trail system, at least up to the meadow or the top of the meadow where those buildings are located. So people can benefit. Then you get them up there. Well, there's gotta be picnic tables. There's gotta be trash receptacles. And then we've gotta have a restroom. And pretty soon we're spending a great deal of money.

Okay. So, so can we, is it, is it feasible to have, this is my last thing. Is it feasible to, to, to, have the county allow us to continue to do some grant applications and try to work with the Friends of Bellevue. I mean, the ownership situation is what it is. But if we continue to do the same things that we've been doing, but we're not obligated to pay a lease, that might be a really cost-effective way to keep our hand in the park unless you just don't think it's worth the effort.

I think I can't speak for the other two attending tonight from the department, but I think if we can keep a hand in it, I think that's the least we could do for Friends of Bellevue.

And for Wildwood. I mean, it's a great park. People don't know about it.

It will be a great park someday. I just don't know when.

There is parking enough down there by the gate, I would think, to just say, okay, this is the park. It's a primitive park. I mean, the state does it. Why can't Wildwood do it? Okay, you park right here at the gate, and then you just go on through, and that's your trail.

The police has a minimum set of improvements we're responsible for. so we can open it to the public.

So I'm suggesting if we give it back to the county that those restrictions would go away, it seems like.

Our rights to guide the future of the property would go away with the lease as well.

So there's no way for us to keep our insurance.

I'd be glad to meet.

Yeah, look into it. That would be my suggestion.

So maybe the action tonight is if there's not an urgency to this, postpone it and at least let

with the county yeah we went out of the lease but you have some guidance that i'm trying to i mean if it's convoluted we can restate it but um just look into it and see if there's any way that we can keep our hand in at a minimal to no cost and um you know help the friends of bellevue with uh grant applications and maybe throw down some gravel there by the gate people can park there and we can start actually start using the park because we no longer own it. So those, you know, the burdens they imposed on us for improvements go away. Is that reasonable?

I'd be glad to try.

Okay. So that's all of you. That's my motion if it was lengthy, but I think Melanie has it.

Okay. Can we condense it? Because I'm sure I understood the motion.

It's either yes or no. You can't figure it out.

It was to consider. The motion is to postpone action on the department's recommendation to allow it to meet with St. Louis County Department of Parks and Recreation to discuss release and amending it so Prince of Bellevue can stay in the picture. Okay.

And I know Council Member Nyhan had a comment, but Okay. Do we have a second to the motion? Okay. Does anybody need any further discussion about Bellevue?

Okay. I'm going to try to have that discussion before the September meeting because we need to know as we go into the budget cycle in October. That way we'll know. Bellevue Farms isn't something we need to basically set aside or think about it.

Well, and I think there's some strong feelings, some council members on it just because it's not city of Wildwood. So I know there's going to be a lot of questions coming forward on it. And so it would be helpful to have that information, I think. Yes, ma'am. Okay.

My guess is we're just going to cut it loose, but if we can, if we don't have to cut the friends of Bellevue loose, that's a good thing.

Okay. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Any abstain?

I had his hand up, Vicki. I don't know if you saw it. I was just reading the agreement. Are we in violation of this agreement? You mean the 2016 stuff?

The things they said to do?

I guess it would be this county to come and say, hey, we're terminating because you guys haven't.

Just some background. The director of that department, Parks and Recreation, him and I were friends from high school. His position was we're not going to do anything with it. And if you don't mind, we'll just stay with the, we'll stay as is and we'll work, just let's communicate. And we always did. He retired and then his replacement, I advised him of the situation and he was like, we're not going to do anything with it. So like I say, but it's time for us to make the decision. That's why I think the direction is very much appreciated and we'll do our best.

Number five is Portner Park, an update on the ad hoc committee meeting group and the maintenance priorities.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'll be as brief as possible. Madam Chair and members of the committee, as you know, last year, about this time, the ad hoc group formed for Portner Park completed its master plan. It was also a master plan that had been very much cautiously prepared knowing cost was a key, key element. The overall plan had a price tag of approximately $1 million. Last year as well, the city administrator, Tom Lee, introduced the matrix for scoring projects. And that matrix scored Pertner Park very low. And so it was not included in fiscal year 2026, nor in the next four years through 2030. At the recent coffee with the mayor, one of the members of the ad hoc group, Ms. Tupper, asked about what's going on now. And so the department thought it'd be great to get them back together and kind of bring them up to speed. Much to my surprise, we came with several suggestions. Why can't we organize volunteers to at least begin the invasive removal? It's kind of overtaking the line between the mature woodlands and the pasture areas. Can't we at least do some cleanup things there to basically make it look better? That being some of the dilapidated structures that also present a risk relative to anybody going onsite. And so tonight the department is presenting to you this list of suggestions that the ad hoc group presented. The ad hoc group knows there's no funding They want to try to organize volunteers, organizations, kind of help get this dump started so that when it is scored in the matrix and reaches that point where funding would be available, we're ahead of the game. And so with that, Dr. Rambo is the chair of that ad hoc group. If you'd like to add anything.

Well, yeah, it's a million dollars enough not to crack. Ward 6 doesn't have a park. And it's a beautiful setting. It really is a nice park and a nice place. It seems like it's going to be a long time before we open it. But in the meantime, yeah, it's kind of like the same stitch in time philosophy we were talking about with Rock Hollow Trail. There is invasives are taken over and it's horrible. There's a There's a honeysuckle monoculture in a good bit of the woods and a sericea lespedeza monoculture in the field. So it's a mess. But if you knock it out, you can generally keep it at bay, keep those invasives at bay and others. Now, the main thing, though, in my view, is stabilizing the if not the dam itself, at least the spillway, because I took some pictures and it's awful downstream from where the spillway is, which is just, it's just mud and it's almost gone. And one of the, you know, it won't be very long, maybe another couple of gully washers like we seem to get with increasing frequency and it's going to go and the whole lake will be drained. I mean, honestly, I can show you guys pictures. I'm not making this up. for that maintenance, but I'm not 100% sure what you're actually looking for. Is it just a minimum dollar figure or authorization to go off and figure out what it's gonna cost for that maintenance?

In the memorandum, the department is respectfully requesting two things. Authorization to at least get proposals for two things. the repair of the spillway and the demolition of those structures. I think I could push most of them down, quite frankly. It's probably getting a dumpster out there and getting it to the appropriate disposal facility. That's the first item. The second item is to explore what volunteer organizations are out there. How do you organize a volunteer group of nearby residents to basically explore that and bring it all back to the committee once we've completed the two tasks. That would be to authorize to get a proposal for the spillway and demolitions, and then to do some research and bring back to the committees. How realistic is it to expect volunteers to basically do what we're asking?

Friends of Elkview did.

They sure did.

Is it appropriate for me to as the as the chair of the committee reluctant chair of the committee. I inherited. But. Is it appropriate for me to make that motion because it's it's no cost we just. and I think the maintenance, it's mandatory. It's irresponsible of us to let the lake go away and it easily would. So I guess my motion would be, I'm assuming the affirmative and I can make the motion. My motion would be just as Joe suggested, buildings that quote for fixing the spillway and the the downstream area and explore the feasibility I guess is the way to put it for volunteer work to help with invasive removal. So that's the motion. I tried to be more concise this time.

Second to the motion.

You're just getting proposals. We should have gotten the developer here to donate half a million dollars to our park program. That's something we should explore. These big developments, just put some money into a pot for these.

Well, you know, we do have the public space requirements. We have collected fees over the course of time, not a great deal, as most end up providing some type of public space on the property.

Well, it's to their benefit if people are moving here for these spaces in the city struggling to pay for them. The development we talked about off Valley have them put $150,000 into a fund to support parks. If we get a ton of development, we have a lot right now that adds up over time.

I lead to you all getting we can look at the public space requirements because we initially had them. We adopted them. They are much more stringent than they are now. As they were applied, we ended up allowing a lot of things that aren't necessarily usable public space. So if you all would like to at least get acquainted with it, we'd be glad to have that on a future agenda with the chair's permission.

So there was a second with an opinion.

Yeah, Matt, you have hit the nail on the head, though, because we have just in my time here, we have gotten very far away from the public space requirement, from any recognizable public space requirement. And now we get... basins with three-to-one slopes. You can't get down in them. Nobody can go down and throw a frisbee.

Nobody's going to pick me in them.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just... The green space is too cheap. It's a horrendous misuse of the idea of open space or public space. It just is. It's these useless basins. They're not even contoured. They don't plant anything in them. It's just a mess. So it would be wonderful for us to get back to that. which is a separate discussion. So the same discussion on

on the property for a Portland rent is the fact that instead of just making the motion to have them look at it, I think you ought to also include in that motion to really look at putting those capital improvements in next year's budget. So we're not sitting there saying, well, we got the money all dropped together, but be specific. If you do get the proposal, then go back and look at it and say, okay, this is one of those, if the dam gives out, now we're talking more than a million, you know, a lot more money than that. So I would actually include in the, the motion to add to it is to, with the intent of putting it in the capital budget next year. If you don't, here's the risk.

Yeah.

I mean, I just think it's another one, especially if you do the matrix. So, you know, you know, this, how this all works far better than I do, Ed, but it seems to me that, um, If they come back in September with some costs, that's the time for us to then forward it to council with a motion that we put it in the budget.

Yeah, I just thought since you're making the motion do it, you could eliminate one more motion by just with the intent of putting it into the capital budget next year. Whatever those proposals come back to would allow you to be in a position to say, because you're only putting it in for planning. So I'm happy to do that.

I got a question with that link.

Are we overlooking the matrix then? No, it would be added to the matrix, but it would be more up in... the security of the safety of losing the wall. Where right now, because there's no money in for five years, we know now that it's a bigger issue. So you would put it in there. It may not still score high enough, but at least you'd have a dollar amount to say, this is something that will be better now than another year from now. And maybe we do it sooner. I just think sometimes we're our own worst enemy because we go to try, and the matrix is totally new, but we try to cut the money out without really looking at what's a long-term goal. I mean, you know, when you say you have to resurface the parking lot, it just didn't happen last year. Five years ago, we should have been looking at, okay, this is going to have to happen. And it's not that we're not doing that. It's just as stuff comes on board, those are the types of things that, you know, for several years, we didn't do it that way. And we had more money and, Now we don't have the money in the right buckets. Pennywise, pound foolish.

So it may be worthwhile. I assume you're going to get contractors to look at. And now this is obviously going to be in their interest. So I don't know how. much weight i would give it but if they could look at it and say it's going to cost 300 000 today to fix it should it go out in the future you're looking at this area of damage and probably 10 million dollars to put a pond back again i think they're going to choose those numbers that you do the 300 today and then on the buildings it's liability i think that's a no-brainer yeah everybody knows the cost of that i'll certainly ask Just like a hypothetical, what does the contractor foresee as the risk of not addressing this?

Most of our contractors have been active for years and years, like help contracting T-Hill. So has this happened to you before where somebody deferred maintenance on their private pond, the spillway gave way, the dam broke, then you had to come back and fix it in our emergency situation? How much did that increase the cost? At least we can ask if they've run across it.

Because I think that plays into the matrix. Yeah, exactly. Because when you're looking at the matrix, you don't have it. It doesn't score enough to even get into the discussion where I think it should score based on losing an asset is a pretty risky deal. So I guess one more time. Ask the fire department. One more question. Is there any market out there for somebody harvesting those aged wooden sheds for reclaim and selling it? No. No?

No. Uh-uh. No.

I don't think these are of the... Trust me, I would be the first person to...

I'm always just curious because people are paying some pretty big bucks for old lumber. The only possibility would be the chicken coop, and we were hoping to save that.

It's relative. I was out here one day where she put a shotgun through the backside of that chicken coop, but she got the raccoon who was in there eating the chickens. She's a character. Anyway, thank you.

And my struggle with all of this is, you know, council said, basically, no more parks for five years. Last year, hard decision council made, and then we're turning around and saying, wait, we want to...

This is mitigating liability, I think. Yeah, this is eliminating liability and preserving an asset so that it's...

And then I think, and then my other piece is just like we were talking earlier about maintenance of existing parks and how do we balance all the work that needs to be done in existing parks. And then we say, we want to spend all this money here when we're saying we don't have the money to spend. And, and you're, we're reducing what you say we need for maintenance on parks. So where does it come from? Unless it's out of reserves, because I'm not seeing the money in the future.

In the case of Perkner Park, your point's well taken. The repair of the spillway and a portion of the downstream from it and the demolition of the liability, the structures, that is a cost we've not programmed. But other than that, I can assure you that the volunteers, the ad hoc group members were like, we know this would be volunteer work. Maybe there's a cost for us to supply a dumpster or something like that. But other than that, They weren't trying to push the project forward.

Well, I think they were saying, let's get some money. Let's start the process and see what we can get. And, you know, I heard several, I went to the Today Ad Hoc meeting just because I was curious about Old Palm School and actually hearing what that group had to say. And there was a lot of, I think, great ideas that people were talking about. But I think they were thinking, well, we minimally need this much money and how are we going to reallocate it so that we can move forward? And it's like, you know, my comment was it's a struggle with trying to balance, you know, all the books to find the money to do these projects and still keep what we have that we already have that we need to maintain. You know, I know we do have a pond and and the park and community park, and we've never aerated it. We've never tried to, you know, do anything with that, but it's cute little pond and it's almost ready to go too, but nobody knows it's there because you have to walk through it, you know, but, but, you know, I think all the parks, we, you know, that's why I was saying, do we have a realistic list of what's needed in the future? So we can kind of balance it all as we look at it. And I agree. I'm, you know, I'm all for parks too and looking at it, but it's like,

Again, just as committee members, we work from the perspective of the strategic plan. And one of the goals was enhance existing green space. Don't do new parks. And we've not proposed a new park, per se. Village Green Phase 2 was something that kind of morphed out of a conversation Mayor Boland had with a group of residents. So that was not originated in the Department of Planning and Parks.

We keep spending more than what we have allocated for that, too. And we're struggling to come up with the money to finish that and do everything that we want to do and make the all-inclusive everything that it needs to be along with the restroom. And if we don't do the fundraising, You know, I'm also hearing we're going to have to cut from that park. And then I hear from, from others, oh, we won't cut. We'll just be over. And it's like, it comes a time when you go, where does that fit in this too? Um,

a comment for the follow-on comment um yeah you're right there was everybody at that meeting believes in this park and thinks it's a great thing but they are not there were no other council members there to um to talk about the reality that council voted no new parks and so they're just saying how can we get the park going because that was their mission and their charter what we're talking about here is completely different thing it is Two things. One is liability. It might cost 20 grand to knock those buildings down. And then we have a bunch of, then we have eliminated a potentially a grave liability for the entire city. The other is the stabilizing the pond because it's actually a pond. You're talking about a puddle that's, you know, I mean, I don't know if you've been out there to partner park but it's a, you know, it's a two three acre pot, and, and probably two acres, but if we don't do something, it will go. That is a liability for the downstream folks I don't know what's down there it's not going to be this. massive Johnstown flood or anything like that, because there's not enough volume of water in there, but it's going to certainly increase erosion off the park premises. And, you know, so we're liable for that. And there's lots of other, you know, RATIONALS FOR DOING THIS WORK. SO IT'S REALLY JUST THE CITY IS RESPONSIBLE. THE CITY HAS TO DO SOMETHING. AND IF WE DON'T SPEND, YOU KNOW, 10 CENTS NOW ON IT, WE'RE GOING TO SPEND $10 ON IT PROBABLY IN A COUPLE YEARS' TIME. AND I THINK IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE IF I SHOWED YOU THE PICTURES BECAUSE I TOOK SOME PICTURES. IT REALLY IS. So nobody's trying to slip their nose under the tent and say, hey, let's open this through the back door. It's strictly a stabilization situation. So I just want to make that real clear.

Yeah, and I understand that's what this is about from you. Certainly, I think it's just the challenges of making it all come together in a good way. Let's see, maybe. Okay. Do you have the guidance you need? Yeah. Ready to vote?

Yeah.

Okay. We have a motion on the table, I believe, and I think we have a second.

For the department to procure proposals and volunteer.

Okay.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed? Any abstain? Motion carries.

And that's going to include the alternative, like doing nothing is an alternative. What's that going to?

As Mr. Trotty asked, if you were to say, we're going to wait three years and it collapses, what do you think the cost will be?

Okay. We're ready to move forward with Celebrate Wildwood. Update. I think Ms. Rupito is going to give us an update on that.

Thank you again, Madam Chair and members of the committee. We'll try to be brief. Celebrate Wildwood is quickly sneaking up on us. I don't know how. We spend the entire year planning it, and somehow it sneaks up every year. It's September 19th. It begins at 10 a.m. until about 9.30 p.m. This year will mark the city's 31st anniversary, and the theme for the event is So Many Reasons to Celebrate. The theme was selected by the Wildwood Celebration Commission because they believed it reflected that there are so many great things about Wildwood. It's such a great place to live, work, and play. And then in addition to our 31st anniversary, we also have the 100 years of Route 66 and 250 years of the nation. It's a big year. And as always... Well, new this year, the theme for the event is going to be the same as the theme for the parade. In years past, there's been kind of like a theme and a sub theme, but it's just one big thing this year. That is it. The parade has always been a big component and it kind of kicks off the event. It will start. There's no changes there. It'll start at Schnucks at about 10 a.m. um and it will remain on the same route along uh historic route 66 until it gets to taylor head north on taylor and head into the heart of town center and will end around plaza drive where people begin to disperse um and then the event is actually down here at village green for the first time so that's very exciting they will not be going all the way down there Um, so that being said, the route is one about 1.2 miles in length and there are all kinds of, you know, image points along the way. and usually drop pretty good crowd. The list of participants for the parade is included in the memo, and you will see a lot of familiar names. Many of these participants participate year after year, and the city is grateful to have them, especially the Moolah guys and the little cars. They're my personal favorite. I'm going to see if I can get one of those for the parade this year. Well, that works. Yep. At least a foster call occurred this year.

See, we let her lead the crews, and now she wants a moolah call. I know.

I think I read it. I'm working my way up. Yeah, we'll be following the horses.

Somebody's got to do it, man.

I've been thinking this.

So another one of the major features, besides me and a little moolah shrine car, is the Mayor and City Council participation. And that is also planned again this year. As in the past, the city will provide golf carts for all eight wards. And the city definitely encourages you to decorate them. Historically, there have generally been competitions between the wards, which I will not discourage. I think this is fun. And so the golf carts will be available Thursday afternoon on September 17th or Friday morning on the 18th. So the carts can be decorated in advance. Any of the carts that are decorated can be kept over in the garage for safekeeping in case weather happens. And or if it's sunny, you're welcome to bring them over to the garage and decorate them under there. That has definitely happened in years past as well. Although sometimes it's not much cooler over there. So that being said, tonight the department is requesting that the committee members advise the department later than September 4th if you are planning on attending the parade and participating in it. And also if you wanted to utilize the golf cart, That being said, other vehicles are 100% welcome. Like if you have a vehicle that you would like to drive in the parade, by all means, it's encouraged. But yeah, let us know if you would like one by September 4th. And we will confirm with the rest of council members after tonight's meeting. And yeah, we look forward to it. We hope you're excited about it. And that concludes the department's presentation. We don't need any other action other than we want to shoot us an email or something to let us know your plans. It would be much appreciated.

If you're new to council, they like us to throw out candy.

Absolutely.

Thank you. Anybody have any questions about Celebrate Wildwood?

Yeah, Joe, did anybody ever drive a Gator before? Rob and I did.

No. We've had convertibles, we've had classic cars. We've had pretty much everything, but the Gator was the first.

I can't imagine driving a classic car because most of those have a stick shift and riding that clutch would just be horrible.

Even had a truck in that one year with the darkened windows. Even had a what? A Had a what? Used to walk. Council did. Then he said, oh, put them all in a trolley. And so they rented a trolley from the trolley people downtown, but the windows were all black. So nobody even knew who was inside. Like a prison bus. They did that one time, I think.

Yeah. Who's in there? Didn't know a car was an option. They've got convertibles. Mayor Bowen was very good at getting a lot of dealerships to loan us convertibles for use.

Really? Before my time, I guess.

I don't recall that.

Yeah, before the Wildwood Commission, the other people that were doing it, they used antique cars. And they would have the people ride in the cars and do that. So Mr. The Greg Naughty family.

But just know as the base, you've got a golf cart for your other ward member. And if not, you have something you prefer, that's fine. Okay.

Then there were a couple of reports that you received, the Wildwood Recreation Programming and then the facility reservations, registrations and ongoing long-term maintenance costs for parks and trail facilities. And I mean, the department's here. Do you have questions about those? If not, then I think everything else is not ready for action. So any other miscellaneous items?

I have just two brilliant ideas.

Okay.

More brilliant ideas. I'm going to say that.

Two more.

But I really do believe that we've got to deal with this issue. So I think the green space thing would really be – and it's not don't have to do it by next month, but to really review that and look at what is – We are right. You watch these people, they'll knock one house out, and the green space they're giving is on the side of the hill that's washing down. So maybe looking at how the green space could be converted, we have it in there for the dollars, but to be able to even make it more of an incentive, if they put that towards the existing... HAB-Jacques Juilland- Are and I have someplace where you get the trails from the dedication of it, but I think it'd be really interesting to see what's out there and other communities. HAB-Jacques Juilland- Or what you all think would be a better way to go about that, because it is kind of worn out and as we see more and more property not. you know, the size of the developments, whether it's a PRD or just the individual stuff. But I'd like to see if you could come up with something that we could kind of move forward. I know the public hearings and all that stuff, but I just think that we've got to come up with ways to figure out how to fund some of this stuff. That was my number one question or just a request. Number two would be, If you were to guess, we had the Belleville Park thing. How many volunteers do you think are really focused on the parks and the trails and that kind of stuff? And years ago, 20 years ago, we talked about once we get anniversary park and once we get a couple of trails in, we need to go and get this tax put in so that we'd have a way to pay for this stuff. All of the volunteers in these different parks are going to be a great group of people to come together. Now, the unfortunate part is as a city, we can't play the role in trying to come up with how to generate support for tax out there legally. So having a group of people that are committed to do the communication, to reach out to people, go stand on the trails and pass flyers out, the types of things, because it would just take a simple majority on a ballot to get that. And I think you play both. You play the stormwater. And you play the ongoing park and maintenance stuff, take a lot of communication, be a lot less expensive now than it was 20 years ago where we had to print everything out and take it door to door and do mailings with the social networking. I'm just curious, how many people do we think in the city would be interested in being part of a park project? and stormwater committee, or I hate to do committees, some way to get an interest enough that each and every one of them be willing to spend some time campaigning and putting stuff out to try to generate that. I just think that we've got a lot of great volunteers. I just don't know that we've used them the right way.

Yeah. And stormwater, we know. That's a whole other discussion.

Principally, when we talked about this in the past, In the recent past, I should say, I think the best advocate for what we do in terms of parks is Gateway Off-Road Cyclists. We have basically taken them from having to go elsewhere away from their homes to experience the rides they want to being able to do it in their backyard. And that's a big group of members. Would all of those volunteer to be advocates? No, but I'm sure we could get a good group of them because they've done what they promised and we've done what we promised. And I think that's a good relationship.

So I don't even know where you start, but I just hate to think. that another year goes by and we sat there and said, we just don't have the money to do it. Now, I also will share with you, if we don't use the money out of the reserves for some of these big projects, you're never going to get taxpayers to give you more money. So it's a catch-22. So I think as we get into this next budget, this is probably the most critical budget we've ever had. We need to look at those long-term projects and say we need to spend that money to get us back up to where we should be. And I just remember over all the years, every year we close a budget, oh, we got another million dollars. We didn't have that a long time ago. But if we let the money sit there, And then we get caught up, and I know the charter says that you need to support an operating budget, but we as a council really need to move in front of that and say, okay, here are five things that we need to dedicate the money to in order to even get the stuff up to where we couldn't maintain it if we got the tax increase through.

It probably shouldn't be new stuff. It probably shouldn't be flashy bells and whistles. I'm just saying maintain the stuff that we have. Maintain and modestly improve. But what I would say about that, I've thought about this a lot. We've talked about it a whole bunch. The stormwater thing would subsume the park component if we're not careful. So we have to be really careful about the messaging. But the larger issue to me, or the larger concept to me is, If somebody spends $1,000 a month at Deerburg's, this is $5 out of it for the parks and trails that they use. It's an incredible value, and that needs to be front and center. Anytime we have this discussion in the future, because everybody uses the trails. There's probably not one person in here that hasn't.

I totally agree with you, but I'll guarantee there's many people who don't use the trails that their backyards are washing away. No, no, I understand that.

I understand. That balance. Trust me, I have a half mile of watersheds on my property.

So those people that don't walk the trails, we need them to support us too. So, I mean, you got to get the biggest group you can. And by state statute, I believe you can put the two together. Then it's up to the council how you split it out or you would bond it in order to do that. But both of those, we're never going to have enough money. And that would not be our answer. That would just be a good place to start. But those people who don't use the trails would still vote for stormwater.

The point is, the one-two punch, it's very powerful. We just need to polish our wrap before we

So I don't really have a motion. I'm just saying that I just would hate to see another year get by with us not really looking at how to work down the balance, some very targeted things. And then how do we go back and continue to come up with ways to fund this stuff in the future? And I know it's not easy. But I think that we've got a bigger network. There weren't a whole lot of people that were in favor of that half a cent for it. the capital tax back then. It's like, well, if I buy a new car, I'm going to have to spend. Yeah, now the car is 10 times what I want. But I mean, a half a cent is not a lot, as you said. But I think it's got to come down to, we've got to get local voters to come out and vote for that because the state's not going to help us. The federal government's not going to help us. We got to come up with a way to do it.

It's also a powerful story because our tax rate, we don't have a property tax. The first thing anybody that's complaining calls me, emails me, whatever. I pay all these property taxes to Wildwood. Well, no, you don't. You don't pay a damn dime. Look at the back of your bill. You don't pay anything. Wildwood's very, very low. Nobody knows that. And that's an arrow in our quiver that we have yet

to use. And so I think the reserve healthy, though, before you go out.

No, I agree. That's all one. It's all one big discussion in my view.

It's not going to happen overnight, but if we don't start it, it won't happen either. I mean, that's all I'm saying. I don't know what if it's a motion or not. I know we they did it back in 2008. They tried to do thing on the park thing. And that was just a real disaster. I mean, from going out knocking on doors. People said, we voted no, and the city went ahead and spent 2.3 million. So you've got to kind of figure out how to work through some of that stuff and what works and what doesn't work.

It was a difference of 1,000, and it was the largest tally of votes we've ever had. So people came out and expressed their opinion. 500 either way, and we might have had a park and start motor tax. But it didn't work out, and we've never been back.

I blame the message. My central position here is I'm blaming the message because we have a powerful message, and it's a positive thing for the community. Everybody would support it if they knew the score, but we didn't give them the facts. That's what I think.

Just one last thing. Everybody we talked to said the more people that turn out for an election, the more likely you're going to be successful for parks. And so we had it at the 2008 national election. Boy, do we get a lot of people out.

Right up there with the gun regulations. And drop people out too. Gun regulations. I just think that as a city, we need to figure out how to start thinking a little bit outside of what we're working on.

Put it down. Oh, yeah. Talk about what that is next time. So at least understand the process.

And kind of go back and look at what we've learned over the time period of that. It's not getting any easier.

Well, certainly a good fish to eat is listening in. So you've heard what you've said and he'll manage the budget process here starting next month.

Looking forward to that. It's always fun.

How about a motion to adjourn? Okay. Member Lennon. Mr. Marshall, second. All in favor?

Aye.

Okay, meeting adjourned. Thank you.

Thank you all very much.