Public Works Committee - Regular Meeting

will call to order. I will call to order the uh November 10th public works meeting. Uh we don't need to call a roll. And so the first item is to review and approve the minutes of October 13th. Any comments or concerns? Nope. Otherwise, I would entertain a motion like to approve. Uh I make motion to approve the um minutes, meetings notes from last time. Excellent. Do I hear a second? We'll give it to Piper. That's five. Uh any further discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries.

All right. We got two three items on the agenda. Uh the first is discussion and recommendations for the ecological maintenance request for proposals. Matt.

All right. So, uh, this has been a long time coming for our continuous improvement on ecological stewardship and improvements without throughout the village. It really started out with, I would say, bioalaes here and there. Think of the ones by the library and village hall parking lot. Station 84 just had a couple added. Um, we have the one over at our DPW site. So these little pocket areas really help with the storm water management features and it's directly tied to DNR permit compliance that we have to show reductions of total suspended solids and there's measurable goals and metrics that the village must apply for with our 5-year permit cycle. It's called the MS4 permit. So there's there's definitely benefits of doing these types of improvements for uh the storm water runoff more specifically as it ties into the Milwaukee River. So we want to treat as much of that storm water before it enters into our lakes and streams wherever possible. So throughout this process there's been a progression of all these different ecological features. And as we all know, this last year with Clo Park was a pretty big undertaking where we did a lot of ecological improvements along the bluff for stabilization features as well as two new bio swailes down below. So going through that, I felt that it was prudent for us to be able to effectively manage and maintain these ecological systems that's different than mobile turf grass within a typical park setting. And our DPW staff aren't ecologists. We don't know the difference of 30 plus different native species that's typically a mix within these basins or these natural areas. So, I started to bring on an ecological firm called Tall Grass that I worked with with Kenosha County back in the day to

do these maintenance uh treatments that they would come out and be able to remove invasive species uh reveate, overseed um and make sure that the actual native species are thriving within their intended area. because if you just let them go, it's going to be all invasives and all that good funding and financing and goodwill doesn't it's not effective as far as your storm water quality metrics and our permit compliance. So after Clo Park was finished up this last year, um I tasked our staff engineer Maxine Miller to go out and request proposals from qualified ecological firms to ensure that we not only have a good price point as we're starting to do more of these maintenance applications during our growing season, but it's qualified um ecologists that really know their stuff. Uh they're trained for it. uh they have that knowledge and skill set and it's a a good vendor relationship with the with the village for them to be able to recommend different things that would help our ecological objectives with permit compliance as well as just where we want our village to be with more of these features. So fast forward, we received um we put out there I think to like nine or so different uh companies and four of them gave us um a proposal back for these RFP or for our maintenance of these uh BMPs. So with that there's the low bidder is tall grass restoration who like I said we've had experience within the village over the last two years. They've successfully maintained our bio swala's uh natural areas and making sure that uh we have extra eyes and ears from a professional point of view and they were the lowest price at an annual cost of $21,070

and that includes Clo Park with all the new features as well. So now that we have more to maintain that budget is in accordance with what we expect in 2026. So, we're really setting the stage for not 2025, but going into 2026 for our our stewardship, our maintenance agreements. So I felt that this was a good point of discussion for the committee to be more aware that there's a desire to do more of these biosale features natural areas which I think is a great idea but there is the tradeoff that there is a direct cost that I think we all should be conscientious of of what it takes to best maintain that for permit compliance and to make sure that we get the best product we can out of our new construction. So Jordan Ro with tall grass is here. I felt that if there is detailed questions as far as how him and his team maintained these bio swalaes over the last couple years, he can answer any technical information as needed. But the recommendation from our staff of village staff would be to uh award the contract for tall grass to be our ecological maintenance firm to help us with these natural areas on an annual basis. So, with that, I'm more than happy to answer any questions or have Jordan come up and answer any questions as well.

Uh, Matt, I had a couple. Um, I thought the Clo Park project was not done. We They still had more to do. Nope, that one's substantially complete. It's 100%. Okay. I think I thought I saw something when in a previous meeting that they still had Okay, that was one question. Yep. We just did project close out. We're doing final invoicing for the contractor. Uh they had one year of um maintenance that they also performed like on the hillside to help us out to bridge that gap before uh tall grass takes it over next year as our Oh, okay. So that one year of extra maintenance is finished this year. Yes. And then tall grass would take that over next year.

Okay. Okay. Um second question you already answered. I I didn't know if you had experience with tall grass or not. Uh, and it's certainly a very impressive uh proposal, your company in that. Um, uh, uh, let's see. Um, I noticed in the in your request for for for the bids, you asked for résumés, but there weren't any résumés in the proposal. Jordan's resume should be in there. Oh, did I miss that? Okay. Sorry. It's right on the the back side. I can I think that's him burning something. Oh, okay. Right, Jordan? Yes, that's you. Yeah, that is you. Okay. All right. Okay. And you've worked with him before. So,

yes. Yes. We've have probably 10 years of a working relationship. Oh, yeah. That's all I had. I uh maybe it's not a specific question. I don't know if you're able to answer it, but I always get a little worried when I see such a variance in the proposals. And so, tall grass came in at half the price of H Heartland Ecological Group at 42,000. Um, I don't know if you're able to speak to that or you're able to speak to that, but what is what why is there such a discrepancy there? If if you want to come up and be on mic or sit down, either one if you're tired. Oh, yeah.

Um, I'm not aware of the discrepancy when I'm providing a number to the village. So, that our cost is half is kind of surprising to me. Um, usually I'm not that low uh on these bids. Um, the we've maintained these basins for the last two seasons in 2023 and 2020 2024 and 2025. So my team's familiar with them and I can go to them and say, "How long are these basins going to take you?" And they'll tell me two people can cover these 500 square foot basins in half an hour. uh and do a thorough job of weeding them. So I already have knowledge of how long these are going to take instead of trying to guess um a a number out of it. So uh these numbers are based upon our experience from the last two seasons.

Yeah. And I think another point is depending on the ecological firm, some of them might be chasing perfection. Uh whereas we are trying to maintain a healthy standard for our our bio swales. And Jordan does a great job even educating me that it's very targeted with invasive species based on when they go to seed, for instance. And Jordan's team can be more effective that they're not going to remove 100% of invasives every time they go there. It's a very targeted approach that you might see an invasive, but it's not going to be a high risk where it's going to actually germinate and produce more seed content and he can be more effective with this time management to still have a healthy ecological bioail, but they're not out there with their staff for twice or three times as much time than realistically what's needed for the long game. I'll call it the long game is you will continue to remove those invasives to get a handle on them to bring it back to that healthy habitat but that upfront cost we're not really absorbing. It might depend on H Heartland Ecological might have a different basis of how much times they see when they see a bioail currently versus working with Jordan that I've seen maybe it's not year one a great bio swale but by year three or four or five you start to see all those natives come back and be reintroduced through a continual improvement pro um program that you're not chasing that perfection like maybe another firm and that might be what's in those dollar amounts too. you know, roughly it came out to I just did a little, you know, how much how many visits they had and for that period of time it came out to about $500 a site per month, I guess.

Y um roughly that's what I 440 1310 240 240 340 and 440 site and I think the bid results per each area is listed within the packet then too. Yeah. Oh, it is. Oh, and some of those sites will be doing multiple sites in a day. So, while we'll be driving here from our office, we'll hit some uh three or four of those smaller sites in one day, thus lumping the mobilization all into one versus maybe another company was planning on driving each day to do one site. So, I I don't know.

Okay. Matt, do you anticipate this being a service we need in perpetuity like?

Yep. Yes, I would say so. That the commitment of doing bio swala and ecological projects should have been conveyed on the front end that there is a commitment to the maintenance through a some sort of ecological firm that that's common place. When you talk to any Northshore community, they also use ecological firms for their BMPs or bio swailes. It's not that once you get to a certain level, it's a set and forget it. Now, the hours might change and those are conversations with Jordan that

now we might need it twice a year versus once a month and you'll see a reduction in services once we get these established. And I think that's our ultimate goal, right? is we're they're they're trying to do basically not getting out of a job type of mentality, but reduce those hours because the benefit of staying on top of it on the front end.

Yeah. I mean, I I can see how CL's brand new. There's a lot of exposed dirt. Um there are others that seem to be, I don't know, well established, the ones in front of the library or the police department, how they've been there 5 years and longer. And so, in theory, those are more mature. like when would we expect it to to to be mature enough to go to two instead of monthly visits and I don't know based on your experience Jordan because there is like the old versus the new like station 84 by the fire station that was there's a lot of work to be done or the Wilson Drive one you and I were out there pulling weeds that was pretty overgrown that one day so I don't know if you have a direct answer on the old versus the newer bioalailes The prairie plants from seed can take anywhere from one year to bloom up to eight years to bloom. So, blackhead susan is an early successional species where it generally blooms the first growing season and matures very quickly. Uh, shooting star from seed can take eight years to bloom. So, there is a balance in there. How long do you maintain it to give that plant the best opportunity to flower and bloom and reproduce? Um, I've been doing this for almost 22 years now. Uh, all with tall grass. Um, the average homeowner signs up for 4ish years. Um, as the prairie uh, matures. Um, however, I have other clients that I've maintained relationships and we continue to work with uh, 15 years later. they like us to come out and just do a a once over um two or three times a year uh very fast uh just to make sure it's in its best shape.

I mean obviously where I'm coming from is just I'm I am indeed reluctant to had had this been described for every one of the bio swales like oh by the way you're going to need $20,000 worth of maintenance forever or or you know a period of time where until maturity. Um that's needs to be known up front and built into the cost upfront because 100%. Um you know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so what just another couple quick questions first um the Silver Spring Park is not included in this and is that just because the garden club takes care of that?

That is correct. and and I remember John Edelbeck approaching the garden club for actually the the library bio and the police and fire. Um that hasn't panned out to be a consistent source of labor. No, it it has not. And I don't want to speak on behalf of the gardening club, but I just had another conversation with them about other um potential maintenance assistance and their response is that they're they're at like max capacity as far as their volunteer, but they're good with Silver Spring Park. Yeah. Yeah. That's their commitment. And then next is the map of Clo. Is it And you know, is it just is it just the green areas

within the green areas? So the hillside um where we have the native uh seating um and then basically where we've been doing invasive species removal of the Japanese notweed on the staircase area is within there the two bio swailes right adjacent to the beach. So anywhere that we did seating along with our restoration would be where their responsible areas would be. I I just my comment is more along lines of Clo's a number of other areas on the that bluff up and down that need do they they don't need any more examination? They they there there are no invasives there that we need to take care of or that's just out of the boundary of

what we want to maintain. The intention is they would not be touching anything that would be considered like mowable grass or like for instance what we did is more of the formal planter bed areas that have trees and shrubs that would be through a different type of firm if they're going to assist the the village with that like uh we have assistance with library uh park or not library park schoolhouse park by the water fountain. that's someone else that can just pull weeds, but they're more of a specialty firm that comes at a more of a premium cost to maintain these natural areas. So, we wanted to really hone in to where they're really needed within those natural areas more so than anything else. All right, let me turn this off. Um, okay. and and and so you don't you don't see DPW staff as ever be able to I don't know train up to do some of these things or

I personally don't even coming from a parks department with our maintenance side operations no one had that skill set because Jordan's team and you can speak to that you're specialty trained and you're ecologist and you go to school with a four-year degree in order to do these types of things between prescribed burns treatments. There's many tools in your tool boxes for these natural areas, but we'd have to basically hire, I would believe, someone like a specialty to focus on that, and that's not a skill set currently within our DPW portfolio. Okay. Um, last question and that's uh I know that Cumberland School has a bioil. Do you know if they maintain it?

That's just grass. It is. They went they went easy as far as so we are able to get credit through our permitting for MS4 comp compliance but it's just a grass swale but they probably have engineered soil mix below hand or below the subsurface in order to do more filtration within it but it's just mowed just like anything else. So that could be an option in the future for the committee and the village board that if now we're more conscientious of ongoing costs. It all comes back down to design intent in order to do our MS4 permit compliance, but keeping maintenance in mind of the future that yes, there's benefits from pollinators to habitat to have all these different species, but there's ongoing maintenance.

Sure. Yeah. Uh, okay. Do we need to recommend something? Recommend this to the village board? Yep. Yes. Okay. Anybody like to make a motion? And I think it was probably on page I'm looking for it. So I can uh I can make a motion to recommend to the village board tall grass restoration LLC as the ecological maintenance firm to provide annual maintenance of the BMP features and the natural areas as outlined. Thank you. Do I hear a second?

I'll second James. Uh any further discussion? Hearing none. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you, Jordan. You could stick around for the next topic if you really want. Go ahead, J. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Uh, all right. Next is discussion recommendations is safe school zone design concept review.

All right. So we are moving along with the intent of utilizing um awarded tap grant funding through our DOT to do enhancements within our school zones within the village. So this came forth through public works committee prior to uh hone in to the intersections where there's recommendations for improvements and that's on Santa Monica and Bell Santa Monica and Day Bowmont and Santa Monica Ardmore and Hampton and then the two overhead school zone signs that are existing along Lake Drive within the Richards Elementary School area. So once we developed the scope, we were able to contract out with RA Smith to move forward within those design intentions. To back up just a smidge, um if the committees remember when we were first awarded this project scope, the design intent was to replace and modernize uh signage at a cost of $622,000. and we all felt prudent that okay that's great and all let's still do that but we were able to leverage uh ARPA funding to secure the signage internally with DPW um and install it over the next few years. So, we're going to do that as a side project over the winter season when it's not snowing in order to reactivate that award of the 622,000 to really optimize something more concrete, literally more concrete to optimize the grant and to really showcase uh school zone signage or school zone improvements beyond just signage. So with that, Anna, I don't know if you're able to pop up the presentation and we have John with RA Smith that him

and I will go through uh what John has presented with uh these different conceptual renderings of the intersections and then be more than happy to answer any questions either per intersection or as a committee feels prudent. Perfect. So, we can go to the next one then. So, as I mentioned, $622,000 and that's all in for our budget for the grant. So, uh that's for design, construction, construction management, and the village would be responsible for 20% cost share. In addition to the 622,000, keep in mind that there's an additional $200,000 that's put into this project scope that's out of TID 3 for the Bowmont and Santa Monica uh intersection. So that raises our total budget to 822,000 for these improvements, which is a pretty considerable amount of money to go towards safe school zone improvements. So, as I said, the initial scope was just the signage improvements, and we decided to really beef up this project and do more substantial improvements. And we talked about that one. As far as goals go, I think there was universal uh consensus as far as improving pedestrian and bicycle safety as well as meet ADA requirements. A lot of our intersections don't meet current standards for ADA requirements, especially with our um our traffic as far as the the sidewalk and the ramps and all that stuff that goes into it. So, everything would be modernized and up to certain uh new ADA requirements, project locations, as I mentioned. So, that's where you see it on the map. The two in green, if you can see the color variance, uh that's the overhead signs on Lake Drive.

So construction budget once you remove the cons cons the consultant fees for design and engineering we're basically left with $425,000 uh for the five locations with the the uh 20% local share plus the additional 200. So we're back up to $625 uh all in for construction and it's planned for 2027. So, John, if you wanted to kind of take it over as far as the the meat and the potatoes of how you got to your recommendations, that would be great.

Hey, thanks for the opportunity to be here. Uh, John Broen with RA Smith, project manager for this project. Uh yeah, first I can go through the design requirements and then I can kind of walk through uh each of the intersections. Um so with this being a WISDOT project, um we need to follow their guides guidelines which is the WIST facilities uh development manual. Um we were also asked by the village as a criteria is no no real estate acquisition. So we can't be uh purchasing any um permanent rightaway or even temporary rightaway during construction um when access is needed. Um and then another big item is our design vehicle. Again, that's coming from the the facilities development manual um for a collector roadway such as Santa Monica and Hampton um intersecting with a local street. Our design vehicle is a single unit truck. So, that's that's what we're designing for when we're looking at these intersections. Um, there's a secondary, they call it a check vehicle, um, where it's a vehicle that's not as commonly used, uh, frequently used using these intersections that we do a check just to make sure, um, a vehicle can physically make, you know, turns into and out of an intersection. Um but the basis for our design is that design vehicle a single unit truck on on these. So we can go to the the next slide. Um these are just some kind of a generalized list of improvements here that uh we we tried to incorporate um within the the uh scope of the project. So we're looking at curb extensions or or bumpouts, use that term interchangeably here. um ADA compliant curb ramp replacements. Um basically

anytime uh pavement is touched with a project, it's considered an alteration. So we need to upgrade the curb ramps to current ADA standards. Um high visibility crosswalks, um seen them around the village, the I call them the piano key uh crosswalks would be an example of high visibility crosswalks. um media extensions. Um basically providing uh an extension the median through the crosswalk so that pedestrians um can cross halfway, wait in the median and then uh continue uh finishing their uh finishing crossing this the the roadway. Um rectangular rapid flashing beacons also probably seen those around the village. Um we're proposing that at one location and there's just additional signing and marking. um that kind of goes with uh our designs. So um so I can walk through these one by one. Um start going north to south. Uh first location Santa Monica and Bell um near Richard's school there. Um the existing conditions are it's an allway stop. Got single stage crossings. So again, pedestrians are crossing um all in in one fell swoop. they're not able to stop in the median to wait. Um, and all four corners uh have nonADA uh compliant curb ramps. Um, so what we're proposing here are the curb extensions um on Santa Monica on uh both the east and west sides of the roadway. Um and then high visibility crosswalks would be on all four legs of the intersection. Um again because we're not ADA compliant on our curb ramps, we'd be reconstructing all the curb ramps u to type two curb ramps. So uh a separate

curb ramp for for each direction of crossing and then uh we're proposing to extend the median um on the north side here um on Bell. So um again just provide that two-stage crossing on the north side. So John Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to ask how come we're not ex I'm gonna ask the same question for location two, but how come we're not extending the median that's directly across from Richard? So in this case it'd be on the uh the south side but on uh location two it' be on the north side. How come?

So maybe I could take it first then you can jump in with more of the technical. So couple things with that. Uh we have a storm water inlet on that south side. That was part of our discussion during the initial concept and given where we were with budgets that we were close to optimizing our full allocation. We wanted to stay within budget because in order to reorient uh storm water that would obviously increase that cost. We felt we wanted to do something on the island, but we also wanted to be conscientious to stay within our project scope and budget. So, since these were made, um that was um I would say shared amongst a lot of people at our public information meeting. Uh the school district chimed in that they felt the same way. We evaluated more um ways to get around that and actually swap north to south in this instance to get it closer to Richard's school and still continue to have storm water management. That that's a cleanout on the middle of that island. So it is necessary to keep that in place for our operations in DPW. If anything gets clogged, they need to gain access to it. But by realigning and shifting the storm water inlet, keep it where it is, but just the top grade, we're able to bring that island to the south in this instance. So that is feasible. And that's what I was going to mention previously is that through I'm going to call it the process of public input that was already shared and John and his team evaluated and it said that that would be realistic for us to make that transition and bring that island where we think it would be more beneficial to the south. And then same thing with the next slide on day.

So maybe I I didn't catch exactly what you were saying. So, so it previously there was no extension and we were able to make changes to get the extension on the north side, but we're not going to be able to do it on the south side. So, previously there was nothing in the middle at all. We wanted to put an extension somewhere in order to create a refuge area. After evaluating with the conflict of the storm water inlet, we put it on the north in this instance to at least have something.

Okay. After evaluating it deeper, I had my operations, my utility tech actually scope, televise, look at what that storm water utility does. I shared that information with John and his team and they're able to design that median on the south and still preserve the integrity of our you of our utility. So since we went through this progression in the meetings, that was one of our discoveries that we wanted to share this evening is we are able to take that from the north and basically flip it, mirror it and have it now on the south. So the north would go away with that extension, but it would be on the south side of that medium with that refuge.

But we can't do both. I don't think our budgets would allow for both. Is that correct? Yeah. And even with the utility adjustment that that Matt was talking about, you know, there is going to be an added cost to doing that to do that that flip. Um, but we're not talking significant amount amounts of money to do that. So to add them on both would be definitely more significant. And as Matt mentioned, we are kind of at our budget.

I I was figuring that we couldn't do it on both because of buses, right? because buses go up and down Santa Monica. I don't know where they turn, but they pick up kids in front of Richards.

And I don't know, I John, I don't think your team looked at if we had um the refuge on both the north and the south how that would affect the turning radius. It was more of a being conscientious of budgets that on my memo you could see we're slightly over budget as we are right now. So that would have to be a decision by the committee in recommending to go to the board for additional enhancements that goes beyond what's been approved by the board as of right now for for budget. So can it can it happen? We would have to evaluate those turning radiuses by the RA Smith team, but it really comes down to how much can we optimize budgets and where does it make most sense given our our allocations. Personally, I I think it's um good to just flip it and have one and not both. This the south crossing is definitely used more than the north crossing.

Um one other question like have has the three neighbors weighed in on the concepts here that they're they're I think they're going to lose parking in front of their house. Well, one one on the corner is not occupied currently. It was for sale. They just moved Mario. Okay. We did send out letters to all residents where this would affect uh right in front of their property. So, they were invited to the public information meeting um and given uh the maps and exhibits that go coexist with that too. Do do you have a clue where we pick up their garbage? Is it on Santa Monica or is it on Bell? I'm not bell.

I mean, you know, cuz now you have DPW trucks. Mhm. fighting those bumpouts. But and I I think we could figure that out. May figure that out. Yeah. Um or or leaf um retrieval yard debris and that and that's going to h that same question is going to be asked for every one of these. Um, but yeah, I would be interested to hear what these homeowners have to say because it will be at least they live on corners and they can direct their guests to Bell instead of Santa Monica.

And I know the school district asked the same thing because of their teacher parking and how much lost space. And John, I don't know, I don't want to put you on the spot, but how many uh because there's temporary parking that teachers would not be able to park in because there's like a 2-hour like maximum parking in some areas on Santa Monica, but was it like five total spaces that they would lose at Richard's?

Yeah, I believe it was between the two intersections, it was five staff parking spaces and 10 total spaces um between between the two intersections. So, you can't see it on the aerial, but um you know, the the curb is marked um yellow for no parking um you know, up to a certain point where the crosswalk is. So, you're not losing that entire stretch behind the crosswalk because that's already no parking, but it's approximately one vehicle per curb extension. Speaking as a husband of somebody who used to work at Richards um and and struggled to find parking every day, um I that that's a challenge to lose parking. On the other hand, these two intersections are ground zero for Richards and making them safer is clearly a higher priority than than those parking spots. That being said, I'm sure it it does create a burden for the staff of Richards.

These bump boats, I know they've been studied probably a million times and are supposed to improve safety, but um and and it was an experience on Fourth of July that somebody raised to me um with this parade down Santa Monica. But, you know, I know at Richards, my kids went to Richards, too. And and then you get a bunch of kids and they stand at the curb and they're waiting, you know, for the crossing guard to say, "Okay." And the cars are going by. But with the bumb now, you're you're about an inch away from the car where before you were, you know, back a few feet. And I know one fell who was driving a a big car in that Fourth of July parade said it was really tough for him when they had those bumpout. I think there was a bump out someplace on that parade route. And he says cuz now you're like driving and people are like right up to that. The kids are right up to the vehicle and you know all these kids at Santa Mona I mean at at Richards they kind of maybe there's 10 kids here. somebody just like bumps somebody and and they're I but I like I say it's probably been studied a million times and but that's just my impression. I you know it seems

I mean your your comments are I mean I've obviously traversed those assumptions a billion times. Um and and they are because of the safety patrol people. Yeah. A and the the reality that there's just a lot of congestion. Cars are going slow. They are. They're going, you know, 5 miles an hour. That's true. And so it, you know, that's true. There's a ton of volume, but and and not only pedestrian, but vehicle volume. Um,

so there's a lot of on one hand and on the other hand in that this is pretty safe because you have adults constantly watching those intersections during True. The safety guards are great. Yeah, I know. Crossing guards. So, it's I mean it is interesting to think the these are pretty safe already because of the the slow nature of all of them. Yeah,

I would make the argument that they are probably safer before 7:50 when people are walking kids, but after kids are dropped off and you have this delusion of parents who are late for work and they're on their phone checking their email and they're calling their business partners and they are just it is like it's chaotic and also there's less fear that they're going to hit a kid and so because there's fewer children after drop off and so that like 7:55 to like 8:30 time frame is is pretty hectic. And I'd also say um especially on the corners, I think one I appreciate the bumpouts, they reduce the amount of time you're in the intersection, but um when you get a really big vehicle and you go around the corner, those things hug nice and tight. And I think some of those vehicles are so big now and some of those, you know, the seats are so raised. If you're in a Cadillac Escalator in Yukon, you're not going to see a kid who's 3 feet tall. I mean, they're just below your field of vision. So, I think they are fantastic and I'm in favor, but do you want to move on to second location?

Yeah. So I guess just to chime in really quick, same thing with the median is what our recommendation is versus what you see on this exhibit is that center refuge we're recommending on flipping that and it would be on the north side closer to Richards. So that is one thing just like we talked about on the previous slide that we we found a workaround within budget to optimize that refuge and bring that to the north where we think it would be best. So go ahead John. So

yeah, very similar ideas here. Um at day um same almost exact same existing conditions. We got an allway stop, single stage crossings, nonADA compliant curb ramps. Uh the difference here is is Day Avenue is is one way eastbound on the east leg of the intersection. Um so we are proposing similar improvements. Um the difference here would be we are proposing a curb extension that would extend onto uh that east leg at Day Avenue as well as um the the four quadrants on Santa Monica as well. Um

and one one thing that we didn't touch on that's on all these exhibits is the sherrows as we call them. So, I know there was discussion with the Sendix uh public improvements as far as 11 ft versus 15 ft in order to accommodate bicyclists as they're entering these narrowed areas. So we we knew that was part of our let's say recommendations is should we do 11 ft with the bump out or is it 15 ft and we quickly found with the turning radius of the trucks based on that other exhibit that we are not able to accommodate 11 ft and that's for our DPW staff too. Think about we're out doing leaf collection right now. Um that's a thing. So, we have trailers and for our own operations, we would not be able to fit and that might be even more of a safety issue. If we're if we're building something where it's not usable by vehicles, then you're rolling on the curb, which is even more safe for our kids standing on that corner, uh, Jim, like you were saying. So, we want to make sure that we're designing things with our traffic engineers that's actually manageable by trucks, including our own DPW, as you're setting yourself up for situations that you don't want to be in of rolling over those curbs. So, being 15 ft, I I guess I don't know your your thoughts as far as marking these as sher uh going into that. if that's a good idea. Do we just allow for the space and bicyclists and and vehicles will be able to manage that or do we like these stencils and we can try them out in other areas and and see if that helps out as far as the bicycle community goes? I I remember recently reading an article about Cherros and the lack of uh efficacy.

Um I'm not an expert. I I I'm not sure what I'm intend on making a statement, but just uh take take a look. Do do you have any opinions on Cherros? Do do you highly recommend them? Do you think they serve a purpose?

Um, in my opinion, they definitely serve a purpose. They're they're not as effective as as a marked bike lane. Um, we thought about using bike lanes here, but you need an extra foot um for minimum is a 5 foot width for a bike lane. So, that would mean taking off another foot of the curb extension. Um, so a sherrow I think raises awareness that bikes are potentially using the roadway. Um, I think I can't speak for bikers, but I would think it's they probably don't feel as comfortable as using a bike lane. Um, but I think it's it's definitely an improvement over, you know, not having anything at all or just a sign up.

And the bumpouts is four feet on each side that you're bumping out into the intersection. Correct. Correct. So that's 8 ft of reduced time that a pedestrian would be in that intersection as it proposed right now. So if you re remove that or shorten that the bumpouts, then you're you're extending that time where they're more vulnerable within that intersection. So it's one of those things that we're trying to work within our existing rideway footprint and accommodate as much as we can for pedestrians and bicyclists with this exhibit. I would say anecdotally on Edgewood Milwaukee over by WM they did Cherros and I think initially when that first came out everybody was up and about them.

Well a lot of stuff but a lot of a lot of people didn't like the Cherros this and that but people were driving really cautiously. Um and so my initial reaction was oh you know what you know people may not love this but they are paying attention. Um, now it's been some time. I noticed this year compared to last year, most people have just adapted to the Cheryls and they just ignore them. And so I think once people get used to it and realize it's not there's not always a biker in that lane, they stop paying attention pretty fast. I I I brought up something. It says, "In some situations, streets with sheros saw smaller decreases or even slight increases in cyclist injuries compared to streets with no sheros. Um, sheriffs may marginally influence cyclist behavior, encouraging them to position themselves. Uh, but these changes have not translated into meaningful safety benefits. I don't know and we don't need to decide this at a at this meeting but just I want to put that out there that like smarter people than me should figure that out. How about that? It

and one of my recommendations of why it's in these concepts is was part of the recommendations of the pedestrian and bicycle safety study. So it's listed in there. We want to try to follow that as our guiding document and we can always try it in these areas as like what's called a pilot program, right? And then if if it catches on and it's popular, then we extend that out. How about location three? I'm going to keep her moving. I want to put Tara to shame, get her get a meeting in within an hour. Okay.

All right. Uh so this one a little bit different. Um it's just a one-way stop uh with the Bumont uh leg being the stop controlled. Again, we've got the single stage crossings and the nonADA compliant curb ramps. Um, so what we're proposing here is a curb extension along the entire west side of Santa Monica and then uh curb extensions in the northeast and southeast corners on Santa Monica and also along the Bulmont uh southeast corner. Um again, the the high visibility crosswalks, the reconstructed curb ramps. Um, we were proposing a RA rectangular rapid flashing beacon or RFB on the north leg of the intersection. Um, and we did that just to maximize the stacking distance from or the queuing distance from uh

Silver Spring um or southbound traffic. Um and then we were proposing a median extension on the north leg and then uh some realignment of the crosswalks and sidewalks in particular on that that south leg. We've got a skewed crosswalk. We're trying to fix that. And then also um there's some sidewalk in the northeast corner that's actually on private property um that we're going going to adjust and and place it back within the the public right away. And keep in mind if we can envision uh that going back to the Sendix development down Lake Drive in Bowmont, the RRFB that's being proposed on that east side of Bumont is also on that north sidewalk. So you're going to have basically bookends of RRFB on those crossings of both Santa Monica and Lake Drive. So, if you think of a school route, uh, a family is able to stay on that north sidewalk of Bowmont and be able to more easily have more opportunity to use those push buttons to safely cross both intersections of Lake Drive and S. Santa Monica.

This go I was going to say this intersection, um, I have gotten a lot of positive feedback about the temporary installation. Um, if you've driven over there, you'll see the cones or the little ballards that have been placed, and I've gotten a lot of lot of positive feedback about that. Um, the one concern I have with this intersection is on the west side, we're going to do the bumpout. I think that's excellent. Um, I do worry that some people are going to still try to stop there and drop their kids off. And I don't know what how you stop that. I don't know if there is a way to stop that. I think this will reduce it, but I just think now given Yep. But how traffic is, it will be a bigger issue if people stop there to try to drop their kids off. And I just Yeah. Especially if someone's right behind you.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you, as a parent there for a while, every year at the beginning of the school and multiple times throughout the year, you know, the principal or whoever would send out emails, you cannot, this is not what this is for. you could. So, I don't really know how you're going to ever I mean, I saw things there that would make my hair stand on in every time cuz I I can't believe nobody's been hit yet. What a car or a human. Like, it's it is crazy. But I I have to believe that that will help because I just think it'll be out far enough that even if they try to stop there, they're literally going to be stopping traffic. Yeah.

Was it ever proposed? Not that I love the idea, but to to change that from a one on one sided stop to a threesided stop. Um I mean it's funny that we have completely controlled intersections surrounding Richards, but we don't surrounding uh St. Monica's.

It was not part of the initial Tatty study when it was evaluating all the Bowmont corridor. Um, so that was not one of the recommendations is to convert that over to a three-way stop. So that would probably need more analysis in a traffic study as far as that impact traffic flow, pedestrian safety. So I wouldn't personally feel comfortable making a recommendation without looking at, you know, a traffic study that would coexist with with that change.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. for choosing an RFB which has a certain cost to it versus some stop signs which are substantially less. Um, I I would defer to the schools on on this and and not to mention what uh Jacob just mentioned that I very much wonder what the schools would say about um what they anticipate will happen uh with people dropping kids off there now that the intersection will be significantly narrowed. Yeah, that's all I'm going to say. We did reach out uh invited them to the public information meeting. Even with the temporary improvements, uh Maxine uh reached out to the principal as well to notify them of our temporary improvements and we have not heard any negativity or additional requests for stop signs. So, I guess no news is good news as far as the what we're doing and what's being proposed. just because you brought it up. Uh what has been the volume of comments that we've received on the don't we have a website with a form that

we have a QR code for the survey for each individual um uh intersection. So and I know maybe we can report back to the committee as far as comments and yeah I'm curious we have you know five or 50 comments and I think in between those two I think there was like 30ish the last time but you're keeping an eye on them like I I don't need to see them. I just we we plan on bringing back all of our temporary improvements to the committee to have that discussion evaluation and keep in mind we have an additional $200,000 that was within the 2025 borrow to make recommendations to convert a temporary improvement to a permanent. So this is you know

this one for sure but the other one like by the high school for instance we still have uh borrow money left that we could look at making that a permanent improvement. So, we plan on doing a full-blown evaluation with the committee sometime over this winter season. Okay. Location four. Oh, before we go, um I know we had talked about it on the last one, um not having both of the medians bump out. I do feel like on this intersection, it'd be less of an issue as far as turning angles and things like that. Is there an issue as far as storm sewer on that uh southern uh median?

Surprisingly enough, it's not a storm sewer. It is a turning radius issue. We actually ran some like exhibits to see what we would have to do to that center island and it would look wonky at best by cutting off that western side in order to make that turn radius. Basically going west to south. So we would have to do some uh modifications to the existing median in order to extend part of it on the east and then cut off a sliver to the west. Okay, that's good enough for me. All right. Station four. Station four.

So, Hampton at Hardmore. Um, similar to a couple of the other intersections, an allway stop, single stage crossings, and again the nonad8 compliant curb ramps. Um, and then similar improvements here. Uh, curb extensions along the Hampton Avenue uh legs. um high visibility crosswalks, reconstructed curb ramps in all four quadrants, and then immediate extension on the west leg. Um, so that's again very similar to what we had on the other uh intersections near Richards.

The church there on the north corner northwest. There's no like handicap parking that we're stealing anybody. I don't I don't think so. I don't think not I don't think right there. Okay. because I think the door to the church is more north. So I would guess it's probably at the other end. Okay. I haven't ever seen a sign there or Mark that I've noticed. Else for four. Moving on to five.

Great. And location five is technically two locations. Um, so we've got the existing overhead signs shown. Uh, the left picture on the left would be southbound Lake Drive, um, near, uh, that's near Bell. And then, uh, photo on the right would be northbound near Carile. Um, and I guess what we were tasked to do here is to keep the existing overhead structure in place and just replace the signs on them. Um, to obviously something that met the current standards, but something that maybe could stand out a little more than than the current ones. Um, so go to the next slide. Um I worked with both WISDAT who um has a say in the signing on this because it is uh highway 32 connecting highway. Um and I also reached out to local vendor Tapco to provide some options that they could provide for us. So came up with three options here. Um uh alternative one would be just a school zone ahead sign with it's a little hard to see in the in the picture, but they'd have um little LED uh blinkers on the edge of the sign um to attract attention to it. Um alternative two would be just a school speed limit sign um with flashing beacons on either side of the sign. And then alternative three would just be simply the school speed limit sign um overhead. Um what's not shown on here and I would still like to have a conversation with Tapco is could we just replace what's out there now with perhaps a sign that is more illuminated or something like that. Same message but just easier to see. U so that's to be determined but um in talking with with DOT these are kind of the the three options that they would they would allow.

I I I thought part of this was if we they're somehow not functional at the moment and like we thought perhaps we could look into repairing them and being done. Did Did we try to do that or Yeah, that's part of this process is going through the nonfunctioning lights and how to upgrade that including the electric. So, um that's what's in front of us would be those three options, but you're saying keep we've got and fix it. Just figure out the electrical and whatever else, right? Quite frankly, I I've always thought that those signs were so unique that they did demand your attention,

you know, like what does that sign say? You know, like it's just a strange sign that you rarely see something like that,

you know? that that could definitely be uh something we could look into as far as to make necessary electrical repairs and keep them existing because I'll be brutally honest, I was disappointed with the three options that were shown in that exhibit because when this was shown to do, they got very specific as far as what's the weight load? Uh can you show us ex existing as built from when this was originally put in to see how much weight a new sign can be in there? So as soon as you start touching and monkeying around with it, they they were basically risk risk adverse with us and our options, which really reduced our options when we when you saw the three. So it wasn't what I was envisioning for something that really grabbed the attention of motorist because Wisot really felt uncomfortable without doing a structural engineering analysis. to be honest, I didn't want to do that either and spend more money to modernize these signs. So, in the eyes of Wisd, the three options were were something that they felt would be able to be supplemented with what's out there right now.

I'll be blunt. When I saw these three options, my first thought was we should probably just tear down. I mean, it doesn't make sense to have these giant poles in the middle if if these are essentially just like road signs that you could have on the stop sign pole. Agreed. Right. Yeah. Right. And it'd be cheaper and easier to maintain. And I don't know. I just I felt like these were I just I just am unsure if this these are options if we need to have them overhead versus just put them on the side, make it cheaper.

Yep. And John actually he he felt the same way with our internal conversations that there is a way just to put them more traditional um in the right of way not overhead and still be able to have the LED lights and things like that. But yeah, our hands were really tied in that conversation with the DOT of what they would allow. And again, I I feel the same way that we're trying to optimize existing structures which we feel have held up through the time, but to put something in supplemented with something small that we could put on the side of the road, I I was disappointed. But I thought that this would be more of a discussion for the committee as far as next steps or direction because even myself, I felt that those weren't three of the greatest options to us. So, either we could look at just figuring out the electrical conduit and spending the money just to make these work again, or to Jacob's point, take them down and look at doing something that's maybe less maintenance over time and still will signify that we're you're entering a school zone. And there's different options for that as well. So, John, I don't know if I answer everything correctly based on your conversations with the DOT.

Yeah, I think that pretty much covered it. I agree with Jacob. I I think these and and Matt I think I think the alternatives are not uh impressive. Uh I I've never fully understood. I I I've understood this uh the signage if it if it changed. you know, it's like one of those signs that could change and like say something different like school is not in session. Go as fast, you know, 30 miles an hour or whatever or it's 25 there. Um, so I I I don't have a problem taking it down, putting up a regular sign and yeah, any other

I agree. Especially since it it was not an insignificant amount of money and and the first time we discussed this a year and a half ago. I think there was a lot of debate on like really we're spending money on this

and I think the intent and purpose from village staff was it's there we should make sure it works but now through the design process and discussion with DOT it's like okay now we have to make a decision is like for you know what's the next 20 years going to look like and would we be satisfied with those three options I think there's consensus that the answer is no so maybe the recommendation could to look at the existing electric and see what that would cost in order to just fix it, repair it and be done or what the cost of removal would be and that's part of the tap ramp. Let's do it. Yeah.

Just for my own curiosity, what constitutes a school zone because we're such a small village. We have enough schools that I kind of think is 80% of our village a school zone. At what point do we I mean I understand the signs here because that's that's a real um uh throwaway but I'm just I'm just kind of curious what the

So we do have a grid of what makes up those school zones and part of the initial tap grant had exhibits that outlined where those school zones are and they would be marked with signage that you're entering and exiting those. So based on Tatty and their assessment of each school zone that was overlaid on our village map and within our not this packet uh for this evening but other packets you'll see where that lies within all of our pedestrian uh projects where those school zones lie. So it it is pretty significant where those school zones are and I don't know what the percentage is but it's up there for the total square footage or mileage of the village. Okay. Um I can make quick work out of the rest of

Yeah, go ahead. packet. Um so we did host that public involvement meeting October 22nd. 32 participants which I thought I mean we were talking and engaged with residents the whole time. It was a great showing a lot of feedback and that feedback is included within the packet. I do have some that came over the weekend. So, I will hand that out um as part of this meeting, but I can also email committee members with additional public comments just to make sure that the committee members have the input that was gathered through the public involvement meeting. So, I just wanted to make sure that the the committee knew that that was included within the the packet for this topic. So I think with that uh we wanted to make sure we put forth these concepts and then the recommendation to move forward with final design would be next right John that'd be next step

okay do you need any action from us so I guess it's a question if do you feel this needs to go to the village board or this was more of a working group in order to give us okay then I would say that we got what we needed to move forward great all right thank And if I could actually circle back with one thing, um the first agenda item, where do we want that on the village board for the RFP? Is that a consent or is that the ecological maintenance one? Yes. Oh, consent. Yeah. Okay. Just want to make sure log that. Okay. Um All right. Well, then our last item is simply department status report, project updates.

Yeah. So here if there's any questions, library park, uh the trees and shrubs are arriving this coming Monday, so a week from today. So they'll start planting those next week. That's one update that might not have been included in the habit. Uh the one question I have is about all of the temporary um traffic calming measures that we've taken. We almost got snow yesterday. Um I'm thinking the plows are, you know, we could be a week away from a snowstorm. Are we taking those out now?

I kind of want to try them with I mean I think it's going to be good for our operators to give that feedback to be honest and at the cost of a couple of delineators, you know, hitting being hit by a plow. I think we're going to learn something. And that's the beauty of temporary improvements is yeah, they might get hit, but they're going to be able to give us feedback as far as those turning radiuses, the constraints, how the snow affects as far as that wind row. Will it be perfect? No. But that's the information we need in order to go from temporary to permanent. I I I get that one of the problems is simply going to be snow removal of the gaps, right? Um who's is anyone responsible for that? I mean,

if it's on the street, it would be a DPW. And so what are we going to do? Like let's just take in front of the high school, you've got a big rectangle of snow. Do are we going to go out there with a shovel and snowblower. So, we're not So, we're going to abandon

mechanically. We mechanically figure out a way to try to remove it, but then if we find that it's preventing as far as sight lines or it's getting too large as far as that mound of snow, we might have to remove those. So, I think it's just one of those approaches that will it be up there and I can make a promise that's going to be up there for all winter. No. But I think that we should at least try it out for a couple, you know, snowfall events and see what the reaction of DPW is. And it'll be very easy for us to remove them if we get in over our ski tips.

Yeah, we've actually talked about this at the DPW meeting with his all staff. Um, and I think this is very important to understand like what is we talked about it earlier with the ecological maintenance like what's the long-term staff implications of these enhancements? How much handwork is there? how can we utilize equipment to try to make that as efficient as possible. But we want to know that before it's concrete and that this is the best way for us to understand.

I mean once it's concrete at least then the plows can plow up to them. But right now it's kind of this no man's land of area that I know folks are often upset about, you know, the the corner ramps not being plowed and not being shoveled, which is the responsibility of a variety of different people. But now we've we've created new land that that you know may or may not be shoveled. And what if one of our and we have we have bumpouts that are these delineators that go around corners? Are we going to ask homeowners to go and shovel out? You know what I mean? Like they would technically be responsible for that area. And so like I I'm a little concerned about winging it.

So the area between the if it's not a crosswalk, the area between the delinear delineator and the curb is not that there will be snow there. that's not going to and that's kind of okay. Yeah. And that's what we want to see like how much snow accumulates there if it was a curb, you know, are there issues with that? That I mean that's all part of the trial, but there are areas that will be more hand work. Um, and that's where we need to start to understand. But you can you can plow up to those delineators. I mean, if you get too much snow, they're going to start to come down. Um, but we need to understand how our plows operate in those spaces, and we need that feedback.

Definitely the spaces. It's just I I I think you you get a six inch snow and you you know the boulders of snow that you're going to have smashing you're going to take them all down. But you guys figure that out. I just wanted to bring it up. I I to be honest, I thought they would would all be taken down November 1st. So I'm surprised they're still up. If you think that there's some more value in research, good for you. Yeah. I I I think we all anticipated them though to be down. And the beauty is there's two locations that we have. The high school and then the Santa Monica Bulma. So it's not that we're doing too many where it's going to become a thing. It's just those two location. The one on Hampton, right?

No, that was an I'll call it an epic fail. Okay. Our cones. So, but you know what? That's another part of it is we put out the large orange cones. We see what happens. I was watching quite the show of a semi-truck trying to make a turn. Didn't work for them. and they ate a couple of our cones. So, we didn't move to delineators because of what we saw. It didn't make that transition. So, yeah, we're down to two. And there's delineators throughout the metro that are up all winter long. We're not the only community doing this and we we've talked to the city of Milwaukee and gained their feedback and yeah, it yeps as well. Any other questions about updates? Oh, makes sense to me.

Well, then I guess the last thing to do is I move to ajourn. Boom. Do I have a second? Second. Thank you, Jacob. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. 1 hour and 11 minutes for the record. Good. I I was trying to keep you to an