Public Works Committee - Regular Meeting

for October 13th. Did I do you want me to repeat that, Anna, for the record? Um, so first thing on the agenda um is the review and approve of the minutes of the September 8th meeting. Anyone have questions, concerns, thoughts, comments? Otherwise, I would entertain a motion. I'll move to approve the minutes of the September 8th, 2025 public works committee meeting. Okay. Anyone second? Second. Okay. All in favor? I.

All right. Moving on to number three. Uh, presentation and acceptance of the Lake Michigan watershed storm sewer outfall inspection report. Wow. I just have to admit that it took me a few times reading it before I realized that a crawler was not a person. I was really freaking out about the potential of a crawler person getting stuck. So, but I but I do thank you for for this really thorough thorough report. So, Matt, do you want to tee it off?

Yeah, I could tee it off. It's almost like a like a a flash from about a year or so ago with everyone in the room when we were discussing the unfortunate situation of our storm sewer collapse over at Big Bay in Buckley Park. And a lot has happened since that June date back in 2024. Uh, I was five months on the job, which was a a great experience being thrown in the deep end with a couple cinder blocks tied to you. But,

uh, I I can't express my uh, deepest appreciation for the key people in the room this evening that really had such a a bad thing happen to the village that was catastrophic, an emergency situation that needed to be dealt with effectively and fast and really prioritized that. and the village board, public works committee, everyone else is extremely supportive of putting together uh the dream team that's again mobilized this evening between Clark Deetsz and the engineering services and Tom Zulick really spearheading and acting as the construction manager at risk during that process of both the temporary repairs that were necessary in order to make sure before the next rainfall that we had somewhere for the 200 plus acres of storm water to go to Lake Michigan. and then see it through. Um, and I I I know Tom was passionate about this one. His heart was into it and he understand the importance of the village to make sure that he left us with a high quality product. So, we're really rounding the quarter. Uh, we're doing sad right now over at Big Bay Park. We planted some trees, so we're just doing our final touches as far as that restoration goes. But, it can't be lost as far as the fool me once, you know, shame on you, fool me, shame on us. And we really took that to heart with our committees and public works um the village board and we budgeted appropriately to start to investigate all of those critical storm sewer features that we know we can't have fail like we did with the basin number four. So with that, um, on top of Tom's normal duties, uh, managing Big Bay and Buckley Park, him and his team mobilized and was able to assess in April of this year the remaining of our Lake Michigan basis because that's where you have really that that the deep tunnels per se that go out to Lake Michigan and once you go 70 ft below, it's very hard to manage corrective actions after they fail. So we wanted to

really get some eyes on there. more importantly as a first phase. It's a first process of the study to really see what we're dealing with with our assessment of those storm sewer outfalls and the manholes that are contiguous to them. So, with that, uh, I'll tee it up, I guess, to Tom now that he can kind of go through his findings. some pretty cool pictures because it's not every day that you get to climb inside a manhole to really see what that looks like and really help with recommendations both uh more as soon as possible as well as longer range plans just to make sure that we can budget appropriately and we can get into that more. So with that uh Tom I guess the floor is yours.

Sounds good. Thank you, Matt. And I think Matt keyed that up pretty nicely, right? If we had done this maybe a few years earlier, maybe the whole Big Bay Park situation could have been avoided or significantly reduced in cost, right? We don't know that, but that's the goal of this. So again, uh, right, you came to me and asked me to look at the other deep basins. So there are four districts that drain to Lake Michigan. There are other ones that drain to the Milwaukee River. This report just focuses on those four basins that drain to Lake Michigan. LM1, 2, 3, and 4. LM4 is where Big Bay and Buckley Park are, and that was the one that was under construction when we did this report. So, I'm going to walk you through page by page on these. I think everybody has a copy of the report, correct? I don't know if anybody had time to look through it or not. Obviously, there's a lot of words and technical things to it. But again, back to what Matt said. This was like a first look. Let's go see what you have. see what is there anything major visibly wrong and what corrective steps should be taken or preventive steps should be taken in the near future or in the far future we don't know till we look at it um so we'll get into it at that point LM1 is on your furthest north part of town it's roughly 220 acres discharges out uh I don't know all your parks that's Cody Park up there correct so a few hundred feet to the north of Cody Park coming out right at the water line is a 48 in sewer that comes out discharges out to a lake very low right at water level right now. So what we did first after going through the asbuilts let me back up to that for a minute. There's not really good record drawings on any of these just like we found at Big Bay Park. We really don't know when these were built, how they were built, even sometimes the sizes. Are the size is really correct or not? Um and the overall depth. So we went through looked at it first, figured out how we're going to enter it. LM1, we went down to the beach. We walked the

sewer up to the next upstream manhole, which is easy to do because there's no grade on it. We literally can walk right in the sewer and walk all the way up there, unlike Big Bay Park where there's a grade on it. And you got to be careful when you get up to the upstream manhole, which is in a resident's backyard. There's about a three-foot sump. So, if you weren't paying attention, you would fall into a 3 to four foot deep water. Tom, did you have any um was there any evidence of other people being in there? Not that I could tell. Okay. Not that I could tell. Oh, grand could raintorm could wash that away. Ter, there was really wasn't a lot of sediment, so I couldn't see footsteps or anything like that. No graffiti or anything like that.

Correct. Yes. Correct. No graffiti inside of it. Um, in essence, what happens in this is this sewer comes from the lake into the backyard about residence. There's a manhole in the backyard of a residence and then it's about 80 ft deep at that point. 85 ft deep. goes up to roughly 50 feet deep and then continues through multiple residences, front yards or I'm sorry, sideyards. We can get to that here in a second. Picture is going to be a little hard to tell. Maybe you can see it better. But the green line is the deeper sewer that I'm talking about here. Again, 48 in sewer into a manhole in the backyard and then it continues between all these houses over to I believe that is correct on the name of the road there. That's Lake Drive.

That's Lake Drive comes up and then it comes up significantly there. So, our inspection went from Lake Drive to the outfall. In general, it's in pretty good shape except for down by the lake. That's where the concern comes in. The sewer is not real deep for the first 50 ft. It's going into the hill. The hill is eroded over time, but so is the pipe. And I'm thinking that's from years of winter storms, high water level, freeze thaw has really beat up that pipe pretty bad. Now, how far is this from the I can see it. How far is it from where the water line is right now? Uh water line is almost at invert from the edge of the water to where this pipe is is probably 30 to 50 ft someplace in there. But that beach is real flat right there.

Right. So, is there potential for backflow into it if the water level comes up? Most definitely. I think when the lake would have been up, what were we 2020? We were at record high level. I bet you were halfway up that pipe. Okay. So I was on you said the red is in good shape but the green is the green is the deeper sewer and it's the first 50 feet on this sewer nearest the beach. So the east end that's really what we're talking about is in rough shape here and the outfall itself as you can see in the picture down below. This outfall is really deteriorated. Yeah.

But again it goes to that whole point of freeze thaw. Imagine in a winter where this is covered in ice and it's breaking apart. And then the major element that I see immediate need for is some type of safety grading on this. Again, somebody walking on this beach could easily walk up this sewer, not know what they're doing. There could be the situation of confined space and bad bad air.

Um or again, not knowing what you're walking into and dropping into that manhole in the far end. So, going to the next page kind of details some of the problems that we saw. And I have a whole list here, right, of all potential problems and cracks in the sewer. But these two pictures really tell you the telltale sign. In that first 50 ft, this is what the pipe looks like. It is held together by just jagged edges of pipe. You can reach your hand right through it and grab the sediment underneath of the ground water coming out below it.

The thing that I highlighted here was that your comment 9 LF where you said the bottom of the pipe is missing approximately 10 sand and stone is washing through the void. Isn't that exactly what we saw happening before the sinkhole? Correct. Correct. The good thing is here we're only 9 ft in. So, we're not very deep at this point, right? We're 5t 10t deep. But the real problem here is the access. You have like no good access to get to this to repair it. So, getting nervous. Mhm. Okay. But definitely a much more manageable situation. Okay. than what we just experienced where it was 85 ft deep and then there were 80 ft deep in the park.

Do do we know about easements at this point? What kind of We have not been to easements, but I wouldn't hold your breath is what I would say. Many of these old infrastructures have been around for over a hundred years, right? Probably that house didn't exist and that outfall was there prior. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Yep. So, so again the main elements of this as I walk through and we can get to it at the end but one is investigate further on this right figure out what those easements are come up with a repair strategy for this that should be in the next few years right

so you are relatively confident and I obviously not going to pin this on you but I mean you're comfortable with a couple of years yes okay yes Now, as I mentioned in here, if all of a sudden we have a real bad winter and a winter storm, like Matt's Matt's crews need to walk down and be checking this every so often, right? Because it could collapse and that water is still going to drain off. You're not going to realize it, but maybe you could avoid a bluff failure at that point or something at the toe of the bluff getting washed out. It's a whole another big expense. Correct. Right.

So, do something with the safety grading. do some engineering on this, do some other investigative work on the rest of the sewer line all the way and then come in and do this repair. The problem is it's not as easy to just go and put a sewer liner down this thing because you don't have a big enough access in the backyard. That's the problem. you could get the trucks that you need into that backyard of that home to be able to do it. But as you'll see in I think I have a picture here of it. They're not the best. But this is like a 6 foot diameter anhole 80ome feet deep in the backyard is all it is. You need that big access shaft like we had in Big Bay to be able to line that sewer. So, and there's no way to get down to the beach and run the liner back. I was just going to ask, can you do it backwards from the water?

I don't think so. It'll be the equipment. Yeah, the access, you know, you'd have to bring in the barges to do it, right? Get the barges in. Those barges would have to have a refrigerated trailer on. There's like just a lot of elements that could all go wrong real quick. There is the potential. I was thinking about this a little bit more after I wrote this. If there were spots in the sewer between that after that 50 ft, let's say you rehab that first 50 ft and then you're like, "Hey, we got these three cracks that we really want to fix." A segmented liner could be installed in those spots. We can put liners in that are like four to five feet long and you can overlap them if you had to. Um, that could be another repair strategy to this. Where would you start from though? that same

that you could do from down below. That's a much more manageable product. It's actually put in by hand. Okay. So, so similar to the lateral lining that we stained. Yeah. Okay. Yep. They're spot liners that way. So, could be another repair element of it.

I know you said our records were very poor. You didn't know when these were installed. After going through them, uh, do you have a better sense of how old these are? It's hard to tell because every contractor had a different installation technique. I would agree with Matt. We're probably pushing that 100redyear mark, 80 to 100y year mark. So, and amazingly, these manholes are in pristine condition for their age, the masonry work that's on them. So, any other questions on LM1? Oh, my I guess my question comment you mentioned uh there's no safety rate and you would suggest a temporary one

just something temporary for now. Yep. You know, isn't it true though? It's been this way for decades. I would agree, Kevin. And there's pros and cons to it both ways, right? You put the safety grade on. Yes, we're going to prevent that potential of somebody growing up there. Doesn't mean they're not going to try to pull that safety grade off for some reason. But there's the other element of it. There's a lot of debris that comes out of these sewers and it plugs up. So, that's another element that you have to take into consideration at some point, too, that you got to clean them. And didn't we didn't the other one blow out because it was so covered in debris? Uh, no, that one, but it's been modified once before and it's kind of oversized for the out outlet, but yes, I'm sure it does get plugged up at times. Yeah, but there was a point where we had none because it

Okay. I guess my point being is we haven't had a safety grade for decades probably. And you know, I I'm not sure I I need to spend I think it was $30,000. I threw that number in and it's primarily the axis, right? Could you do something real simplistic? Yes. But again, you need to get steel, concrete, anchors, and welders down to that spot. I'd rather And I don't know if you have the right to go down that beach. I don't think you do. I think you may have to come in from the water to do it. So that's a decision for you make. I'm calling it out. Okay. Thanks.

The next district is LM2 which is very small

and LM2 pretty much takes the immediate area just around Clo Park. We have no records of this at all. There's a GIS drawing of it. I don't know how accurate it really is. The piping goes down the hill someplace in Cloody Park. All I could look at were the pipes that are discharging on the beach and they're 16inch diameter. They're very small, so there's no man access to it. Everything on the beach is in really good shape. There's no problems. It's mounted to those. There's those wing walls that kind of help prevent the uh waves from coming in. Um I suggested in here at some point the village has the right tools in house now that they can inspect that. Needs to be inspected. You just got to be careful because the camera is going to go down a very steep slope. You got to be able to make sure that you can retrieve it or get it out. So besides that, LM2, I saw nothing else. It's again, it's only 21 acres of area.

Good news.

LM3 is your largest of the four basins. This is 310 acres. Really takes the core of the village here. discharges out through Silver Spring Park. 60-inch diameter tunnel going out through Silver Spring Park. This sewer kind of winds its way through this neighborhood down eventually onto Silver Spring and straight out. to the next picture. In general, nothing was found on this from the visual eye that's like, "Wow, we have any any significant problems or worries right now at all." Right? I think your biggest risk and biggest concern of this is actually in the tunnel section shown in the green area there of where it lies. Right. At some point, from what I can tell, this sewer went straight out to the lake. I don't know why this was modified in the way that it does, but when you walk down this hill, you can kind of see the ravines and the and the draws in there. Um, but in the picture, you can see the outfall. And then we took these measurements and these rough angles from being underground trying to reference where we are. When you get up close to manhole one, which is located in Silver Spring Park, you can see this connection between this newer tunnel structure and whatever the old tunnel was. My concern, as I note in here, is how is that connection done and could there be a failure? And that's something when the time comes that you are doing other sewer inspections potentially with more involved technology would be to further inspect that. The problem is we have no built drawings to really know what the reinforcing or construction technique was. So, it might actually be a little bit of destructive testing like core sampling and things like that to figure out and it's an area concern just to keep an eye on. Um, but in general, that entire tunnel section as we walked it up to manhole number one in Silver Spring

Park is in very good condition. The outfall, as you can see in the picture, yes, there's signs of graffiti. Could somebody have crawled up that sewer? I'm sure. Again, there's no safety grading on it. This one's more accessible than LM1 where it's located. Um, but there was besides small cracks, things like that, no problems with it. How tall is that? Most 68 inches. Yeah, this is your largest 60 inch. Um, we then down I'm sorry, Kevin. Sorry. What did you mean when you said it's more accessible?

You can pretty easily get down the bluff and you're right there. So when you wander these trails here in Sober Spring Park, it gets you pretty close and you can see that outfall. When you're in Cloody Park, unless you're really paying attention, you don't know where that other outfall is. And like I say, it's about 300 feet, probably 200 300 feet down from the edge of the on private property. On private property where this, you know, you would be hidden a little bit more and you could get to it. And I I think hence you see the graffiti is probably what I wasn't sure what Yeah. accessible trucks accessible clearly not us.

No. And over the last few years with the Lake Michigan height levels finally coming down, but when they're higher, even from village staff and our superintendent noticed that there was minor erosion on that bluff within Silver Spring Park. So, it's a little bit harder to access it based on a little bit of sloughing. Nothing major, but as far as that, I'm sure you had a hard time with that last ridge. Just that last like 10 ft a little difficult to get down, but it's it's not not really an issue. Is this one similar in that when the water was high, we were probably in that pipe? This pipe sits about two feet higher than water level right now. The discharges. So, yes, when the water was higher, it was probably a little bit up into the pipe, but not far. Okay. And I think that's why you see the condition of this outfall in so much better shape.

Better than the other. Yeah. Correct. It's interesting to see the the rocks in this picture. And I I don't know how far the rocks go out to Lake Michigan, but you do wonder if those are helping with like ice heaves if there's ever anything. And and that, you know, putting some big rocks in front of our outfalls is probably not a terrible idea. There is a lot of debris in this area. So I don't know if this has been filled because the the rock that you're calling in the front here, the outfall is actually a piece of broken concrete. Yeah. But as you walk down through the park, all these ravines are kind of you can see the jagged chunks of broken concrete from over the years dumped in there in the ravines. Yep.

That's probably their stabilization method back in the day. Yeah. Okay. I half wonder if some of this was actually installed like conventional open cut method because there was a ravine and somebody was trying to fill it to gain more property. Uh just for historical purposes, maybe four or five years ago, the owner of that property contacted us. Do you remember this, Jacob? Yeah. And he wanted to own it. I Yes. They wanted to own it because they were we've had issues with them clear cutting the trees

uh or like cutting trees down and then you notice like there's a tree pick like there's trees on like drive. Um, and so they were they were Yeah. They want to own down to the beach. They want to Was it this one or was it next to Chloe? It was this one. It was this one. Yep. Because Jake's is like friends of the family or something. We had some Well, that's Jake is friends with just about every family. That's why we keep him on staff. But yeah, the the the owners of that property want to own down to the beach and do like the big tiki bars up and down there.

And I guess we can talk about that now, right? Looking at that picture, you have no idea what your rightway are, your access to this, and you're won't say right on top of that house, but you're definitely well into that property. So, pictures here. All right. So, upper right picture, that's where I note 90° bend at 325 ft from the outfall. Um, and we can see a difference in how the two tunnels were made. The one in the back, which again is what I believe went straight out to the lake, was formed out of boards back in the day. So, that's telling me that's an older construction technique. The tunnel section that comes up through the property with these bends appears to be some type of a slip form that they use. So, a newer construction technique. And this is my only area of concern is how are these two tunnels joined together underground? So, and from reference as you're standing in Silver Spring Park, this is roughly 16 feet east of the manhole that I have called out below in the uh in the picture there. So, as you're walking on that path into Silver Spring Park, you'll hear water rushing right there cuz it falls, I don't remember, 20 to 30 feet in that manhole down. And then imagine 16 feet, this sewer makes a straight 90 and goes north.

Why would they do that? H I don't know if maybe the outfall was failing again if somebody maybe that maybe there was a ravine that came way back and instead of extending the outfall there they decided to go 90 and then I I'm not certain. It's really odd and it's such a sharp 90 degree bend it wasn't well built either. And then to have a manhole 16 ft away is just odd as well. You talked previously about um segmented lining. Um, is there any way we could do segmented lining on a 90 degree angle just to

No, the only thing I could think of potentially, let's say there was some structural elements here that we're concerned about is potentially doing something with carbon fiber, but I have experience with carbon fiber on structural elements, but not at this depth. So, it would definitely be something we have to look into. [Music] We continued to investigate the sewer further up and I don't have the GIS drawings of all of that but so then in the manhole and silver spring park it's very similar to LM1 where there's a sump in it. So again if somebody were to walk up that sewer and make a misstep 3 to 4 feet deep of standing water you would be standing in and no steps to be able to get out. So, similar as an LM1, this manhole again roughly 6 foot diameter, various block and brick, 80ome feet deep all the way down in good shape. But again, a masonary structure. We continued all the way up Silver Spring and then down Marboro and checked all those mantels because we were still relatively deep, roughly 50 ft deep. Um, the village at the time did not have their larger equipment to be able to run the CCTV and I don't know, Matt, if you procured that now. I know you talked about

the 2026 budget. 2026 budget. Um, I walked some of it. Everything that I visually see was in good shape. manholes were in good shape. As we get up this way a little bit here, I'll say I'll take village home. There are areas where there's a lot of mineral deposits, but again, it's not causing any problems with the sewers. Just something from a maintenance item to be taken care of. I'm not certain where the minerals are coming from. How would you take care of those as a maintenance way? Just they could be cleaned out, cleaned out, scraped out. Yep.

Yep. Yeah. There was a couple in particular areas of incoming sewers where there just seems to be significant amount of deposits coming. Yeah, that one. Yes, I have a picture of it there. So, the issue with inspecting these, it's going to take some work to do them in the future, even to get the camera down because they're so deep and the ladders really aren't that well. You still have to do confined space and there's sumps in all of them. So, again, you can't just go down and stand there. You got to work the camera in. But

again, nothing of concern on any of these that I saw. And very little sediments inside of them, too. So, they're really clean. So from the LM3 system, the only thing I called out to be done is again the potential to do some type of a permanent I would do a permanent safety grade at this point. What I would do there is I wouldn't go right on the face of the pipe. I would cover the entire outfall with a large grate. Um that way you have this large area to distribute uh debris just like we have at Big Bay Park. So, it's not just the 60-inch pipe. It would be that whole area and then again become a maintenance item. And that's a discussion for you guys. It's been years and years and years without it, but it's something that can be done as part of a condition assessment in the future. I would suggest at some point if you're going to not just televise, you could do multi-ensor on these sewers. So, multi-ensor is the next level of CCTV where you are actually profiling the pipe. you are seeing over time. Is the pipe starting to move? Is it starting to squish? There's even systems where you can tell wall thickness of pipe and deterioration of wall thickness over time. We've done three of these projects now for MMSD on their large interceptor sewers and that's what they're trying to do from a condition assessment every so many years to be able to tell where their interceptor sewers are sitting. So, it can actually even be done underwater. We did a section of a 108 inch pipe that was completely underwater and the sensor can go through and do everything. You can tell them the debris buildup and things like that. So, this would be much more simplistic than that. Lastly, we have LM4, which is Big Bay Park, which is what we were working on at the time. We know that LM4, right, the outfall is all new. We know that the shaft is new. We know we tied on to the existing drop manhole and modified that and got rid of

the drop that had failed. There is a section to be retellized from the park up to correct me if I'm wrong, Matt. What street that is? A couple blocks to the west. Going due west. No, going west. Yes, you'd go straight from the park going due west. What is the street that intercepts? New Hall or New? New Hall. Fairmont and New Hall. Yep. New. Yep. So that's where that deep sewer goes from Big Bay Park up to New Hall. There's a manhole there. Is that the one where we're looking down? Okay.

Correct. That's the manhole where you're looking down then. So I'm guessing in the projects, correct me if I'm wrong, 2008 roughly is when the storm ser 2010 was done. These two sewers were added into this manhole. Mhm. So most of the sewers tying in are new at this point. This manhole is in average shape. Something to keep an eye on over the years and keep inspecting. But besides that, from everything we can tell, that's in very good shape as well. So, is this one missing a ladder or is there a ladder there? Most of these don't really have adequate rungs or they're rotted off. Even if they do, they're not ready. Don't trust them. I would not trust them going down. No. So, you're going to be tied off on a winch going down.

Okay. Yeah. That's kind of I mean we've gone and that that other s that that one was a lot easier. Super clean. So on the bottom of last page. So there's the picture that you're talking about ter that's looking down the manhole in the intersection of Fairmont Hall. That's cool.

So in the bottom Matt asked me to arrange this in a chronological way of what my suggestions for capital improvements would be. So running through those again, LM1 and LM3 up to you, but rough estimates of what it would take to do some type of temporary safety gradient at LM1, something to build a true permanent safety gradient at LM3. 2026 to 2028. Talk about that multi-ensor technology going through doing really a true PACP MACP standard for inspecting these sewers. That way you have a baseline in the future to be able to go off of. That would also be time to start doing design work for the outfall rehab and the tunnel rehab on LM1 28 to 30. I said LM3 and LM4. That's when you could do again multi-ensor and full design or I'm sorry full investigation there and really look at that 90 degree bend within Sober Spring Park for structural elements there. And lastly, 2029 to 2030 be LM1 and that would be rebuilding that entire 50t of tunnel and the outfall at the lake.

And you're feeling fairly confident it can last another four or five years. This didn't happen yesterday that way. I really think the main thing is though watching the winter storms if we have a bad blizzard winter storm of some type. But the the saving grace is Lake Michigan levels are down right now. Is it the snow? Is it like big large wave action? What about frost? Um freeze freeze. Correct. We get that big wave action and then right very cold temperatures all of a sudden. This table doesn't include that other option you thought about. No, it does not. So that and that would not work on that first 50 feet.

Oh, it does. Oh, no. It would not because the pipe is so far gone at that point, you can't really do any basic. So, that 1.5 million wouldn't change. No, no, you could use that technology further up the line. Uh, if there's other concerns, but you still access it from the beach. Yes. Y from the beach. Yep. It's kind of crazy. Got to get to it. Yeah. That's kind of crazy. And all of the research, easement, etc. that stuff we do in house.

I think we start in house with whatever we can find. Go to the register of deeds, have initial conversations with homeowners, make sure that they understand the report and the importance of the storm sewer, you know, outlets and gaining access to them. And then, yeah, we have to have those conversations, but I'm sure there'll be some outside assistance. We're talking about easements that there's going to be legal documents that need to be drafted. So it it's going to need some outside assistance as well as in-house to do our own internal research to kick things off. Okay. So we'll need to build some additional funding into this.

And that's one point of the memo that I did include is our CIP does include those kickstart budgets within that. So those types of discussions of building that framework of the priorities that Tom put together

uh also mirror what's in our existing CIP model at least for the first two-year borrow. Now, obviously, when we're talking about a 1.5 million, that's not in there, but also to be in a future borrow. So, once we do our due diligence, get the easements, design, engineering, we'll have a better idea of what we should incorporate into the next borrow in a couple years from now, too, for the actual project with that first 50 especially. So we have enough to kickstart things, do our our process over the next year, year and a half, prioritize it, and get the right people involved in order to give us further recommendations based on Tom's recommendations and and study that you put together.

Would it be worth um going back and giving it two winters and looking to see what the condition looks like compared to easy walk? Okay, we don't need to go to this level at all. I'd say stop down, spend two hours, and check air and walk up there. Okay. So, it's a doable kind of thing. Most definitely. Yep. And I would do probably the same thing at LM3 and go check that that turn there as well. Okay. Just to be because I would hate to, you know, correct. Put it on the shelf and forget it for 5 years.

Yep. And there's probably a way that we can measure those cracks right now and then go back after winter season, see if there's been any variance in those cracks and the sizes too. So we can paint them, mark them, document where those locations are, and then go back after this winter and see if there's been a dramatic change. And of course, if there is, changes the urgency a little bit more. Absolutely. I mean, I I imagine this is one of those things where it's really really good for a while and then it starts to change, but then the change, you know, once it starts to change, it goes it changes very much. If all of a sudden, like, let's say the top of that pipe fell out. Yes. It'll hold for a little while, but all it would take is one good storm. Yeah. Okay.

And there's no temporary solutions to these things. Like if you had to do something, right? You bring up a good point, Kevin. pump grout in there or something or you you go slide a a smaller diameter pipe up, but then we need to rely on these guys need to get involved and maybe we should get them involved sooner because we don't want to do that and then cause a flood, right? So something for your discussion, but maybe start doing modeling right now of LM1 because it's an interesting model. It's very similar to what you just did at LM4 with the hydraulic head. We're actually talking about pressurized pipe here, not standard gravity sewer.

This stuff looks super excited. Almost every pipe u in that vintage has a slip in it. Ours. Yep.

Right. and our other point, you know, our structure is over 100 years old. It was built to be much bigger, you know, a bunch of them that used the arch bridge and how you piece pipe. I thought that's interesting. So I think uh there are ways of um now that we know there are ways that we can we can manage the situation by us right

um I think we're all saying probably dictates that at least a couple um and now that know what to look for on a regular basis I think that shortterm horizon there is a solution that slide sliding a a smaller diameter pipe in there fix it in place. Mhm. Even if it's done from the beat side, you know, nobody's going to write a newspaper,

right? So, it's a safe I mean, it sounds like you're both in agreement. And CJ, I'll throw you in there, too, because you haven't said no. Um, in agreement that a good course of action would be to monitor this. Go back and take a look at it after the winter. See if we've had significant changes. If we've had significant changes, investigate a slip pipe. Yep. If not, let it rest. Check it again in a couple years, but plan to fix it 2930.

Yeah. If we look at the LM4 outfall, right, as Mustafa was saying, that's a 60-in, right, that went out, but at the end, the last roughly 100 ft, somebody had done a repair. They had cast concrete inside of it. Now, we've removed that as part of the process, but that was down to roughly 42 inches inside. So, you had this big stint inside. That's removing there. There's been these repairs notoriously throughout, but there is the right you're inhibiting sewer size, but having some open sewer compared to open sewer is much better, right? So, so we feel pretty decent about a plan like that. Just keep in mind this is a 48 inch going out right now. Although, we don't know how much this is pvious compared to impervious surface.

Sure. Bore was roughly the same size, actually a touch smaller. That's a 60inch out wall. So, and the acreage that it served is within 80 acres of each other. Similar four is actually smaller. Okay. 8 acres smaller. So, not an unreasonable correct possibility. Okay. Any other questions for me? Thank you. Thank you so much. And and just to second what Matt said, we were very lucky to have the dream team saving us. I appreciate you having that much confidence. so much confidence. Thank you. Okay. And Matt, anything else you want to

The formal, I guess, recommendation from village staff would be at the public works level, this will not go to village board um just to accept the attached Lake Michigan wershed storm sewer outfall. So, that would be the recommendations in front of the committee this evening. Do we need do we get a motion? Do you want it on consent or do you want it on regular consent? That's That's perfect. So, yes, we need a motion. Yeah, I would move that we accept um looking for the words, Steve. Oh, I would move to accept the attached Lake Michigan watershed storm sewer outfall inspection report as shown and presented. Second.

Okay. All in favor? I had to read my hand. Okay. Moving on to sorry I got to get back up to the top of my agenda. Uh discussion recommendations on the lead service line design and inspection services. All right.

So we have Clark Deetsz here for this one as well. Mustafa. So I'll again tee this one up and then Mustafa can answer any questions uh and fill in the blanks as needed with this one. So, uh, this has gone in front of the public works committee a few different times for the private property infiltration and inflow reduction program and there's been a lot of changes since the last quarter of 2024 to where we sit now, especially with the village where we used to do the cure in place pipe and of course that no longer is a thing that MMSD is recommending. So, it's about a full-blown replacement for the private sanitary sewer and we we as far as village are trying to reduce that inflow and infiltration and MMSD is supportive financially of those efforts on the private property side. So, we're trying we tried to realign our goals and objectives with the village along with MMSD and their requirements of the new let's call it program 2.0. So since those discussions back in December of last year where the village board approved that program, Clark Deetsz was hired to be the designer of the sanitary side. And fast forward, we had many different conversations regarding lead service lines and we were trying to create synergies where we're not in someone's basement twice if we're going to have to replace a private sanitary line and a private lead service line at the same time. So in May, uh, we brought to the public works committee and the village board a PPI LSL program that really had those mutual efforts combined together. And that's included within the memo as far as what those requirements for a homeowner to be eligible within that program. I think we all know what they are and they're included in the memo. But anyway, we

reduced it. So, it's about what CJ 109 properties within our primary um area one that were eligible with that new program. So, we sent letters of notification out and right now we have 42 properties that are qualified, eligible that showed interest and we're moving forward with and we submitted a competitive grant application through MMSD for both the sanitary sewer and the lead service line replacement. This was described into our six-year CIP budget to manage both those things, both on the revenue side with MMSD as much as the lead service line and the public side with the $6,000 on average what it would cost the village per uh uh public lead service line replacement as well as a special assessment for the $6,000 anticipated cost for the homeowner. So, realistically, that would be the only direct cost to a homeowner with getting a brand new sanitary sewer lateral and having your uh lead service line replaced is approximately $6,000. So, we tasked Clark Deetsz after May to proceed and that's what they have done and we had public involvement meetings and we've been engaged with a lot of residents, a lot of questions, a lot of education materials. They did a great job with our website development where people can find out with an interactive map and FAQ. So, good job with all that stuff. But one thing that was originally never really discussed is the consultant services for the lead service line. So it was really a linear path and a process to work on the MMSD side first and now we have to slightly backtrack just to make sure that Clark deets has the necessary approvals to do their necessary design, engineering and um construction oversight services. The contract in front of the public works committee this evening is for 70 total

and that's why you see the dollar amount the way it is. We don't want to have to come back multiple times. This is a two-year program is what we uh had agreed upon with MMSD and the board. We only have 42 as of now. We're hoping for 70, but their fees and services are reflective of how much they have to do based on how many people are signed up. So, if it's only 42, then it's only 42 that they charge the village for. So, that's the way that this program works. So, other than that, Mustaf, I don't know if you have anything else you want to add. Um another sort of feature of it is that uh while we did um plan for 70 right uh MMSD's funding um isn't 470 am I right? 35 a year.

35 a year, right? So they, you know, in their funding world, um, it is really a two-year program. Um, from a construction standpoint, from a professional engineering services standpoint, it's sort of design once, build in two years. Um and in general the the notion of adding a villager run village initiative on LSLs as Matt said made sense just because it is similar work um in in terms of um equipment in terms of effort um they they have been mostly um trenchless both uh lead services that we've replaced recently in places uh but also the the laterals. Um so you may have seen some MSD um presentations where there's this giant trench in front of a person's house. We haven't really seen that. um contractors are first of all qualified by MSD uh to be able to do this type of work without blowing up the neighborhood. Um so in that sense I think that it's um it's a good start for Whitefish Bay to you know get going with our LSLs, right? So it's not like they're going to fix themselves. Um so that's essentially two different funding mechanisms. One is village uh owner slash owner and the other one is mmsd

and um we we we are essentially trying to leverage the fact that we our staff CJ staff is going to be there anyway. um is going to do the paperwork anyway um so that we can essentially piggyback on the MMSD project for our own purposes. So that's sort of like any questions? Well, they're really I mean two different systems. So I mean they are completely two different systems. So where does the cost savings come in then? So, um

I mean one is feeding the coming in the different t if you had a trench it'd be a different trench. They're very close. Um they are separated vertically. Okay. But um in many places in many homes they're like on top of each other. um which is sometimes but for example many homes that I'm familiar with the water meter and your final cleanout are of the same.

So that's one. Number two, we're hoping that we'll get some contracting yield. Oh okay.

You know um it's very similar equipment for one there's similar um capability. So it's it's nowadays there's only a couple of subconultants or subcontracts that usually this tantrulous stuff. So that's where we're hoping. Plus, as I said, from professional side, um, you know, we're going to be there as paid by MMSD's funding anyway. So the additional handholding the additional sort of um u you know the the water connections have it's their their own sort of um review systems like how you connect to the main and how you abandon the existing which

the lead service lines to supply uh domestic water basically that's a one forone replacement right I mean you're just taking out the lead putting in same diameter Mhm. Yeah. They're like they're an inch inch and a quarter. So,

um in some contractors have the technology to sort of pull one out as you pull the other one in kind of. So, uh you know, I think overall it's it's a very um when everything goes well, it's kind of seamless. Um, we're trying to make sure that we don't disturb things like curb, sidewalk, people's landscaping, etc. So, those are some of the some of the things that Mr. Bayer um has gotten very good at. Um, so that's going to be a thing, but you know, it's it's like con any construction, right? So, so the savings is in contracting, I'm hoping, and sort of not doing it twice because going into basement to hook up because the that pipe needs to go in the house and hook up to the meter. Um deep and the way the preferred way for the lateral replacements also going all the way under the foundation to your first clean out which is a foot away from your wall base.

Do you not also have to attach Don't you have to open the road to to make the attachments to the laterals? So it's one opening two pipes, right? So that's that's the other place. So it's like some some beans are in the parkway and grass. Yeah. But but I'm just saying it's one opening for the two. We're not react when we're looking for economies of scale that plus the communication that would be sim. Yep. And then you put it together once. Right. Okay. Right. Into the into the basement or exactly and into the road. Yeah.

So if we do it generally, I mean the holes have been what? 6 by six on the street. So you know one hole and you're getting the same. It's not typically on one side of the house and the other one that you're coming at. But the economy here is you're you're using the same spot. Yeah. Okay. And you're you're pulling two different things getting Okay. But then they are separated. I mean, you're going to have a separation between your be separated at the road separating the house, but when you're constructing it, it's the same spot.

So hopefully, you know, um now looking further, right? So, so our LSL program goes many years. PPI, we'll see. I mean, we're good for this year, next year. Um it's all subject to of the um funding dire and objectives of the district and we're going to write as much as we can. We have many residents already signed in as long as we can combine them with other initiatives we're good. Um, any other board mean uh public works committee? Otherwise, I wondering if we have public questions, comments on this item. Do we?

Okay. Okay. Very much. So, you need essentially recommendation to the village board. So, moved. Do we have a second? All right. Okay. I move to recommend the village board to approve the Clark Deets lead service line program design and inspection services agreement in the amount of $94,250 as shown in the attached exhibits. Thank you. I'll second. Second. All right. All in favor? I.

All right. Thank you. All right. The next thing on our agenda is the traffic map. Um, amended official traffic map. Yeah, just really quick. Thank you very much. By the way, for the previous item, regular business or are you comfortable with consent for that one? Consent. Sure. We've talked about it. Thank you. Perfect.

So, um, we had a lot on our plate through the last public works and village board meeting. So, we wanted to package uh three separate uh traffic and parking map amendments all kind of together more comprehensively uh just to streamline things and prioritize. And I I felt like now is the appropriate time just to kind of knock those out and have more of a discussion. And we sent out resident notification letters of who they would affect. So, that's why I'm guessing that we have some people still on the crowd. So, thank you for sticking around through the agenda items. Greatly appreciated. So with that uh in the memo you'll see where I try to chunk and section each one off. So we'll just go through maybe ask whatever questions from the committee uh and then the public and then we can move on one to another through the three. So the first item is ADA parking and daylighting near Whitefish Bay Public Library. So, our director of the library, Nyama, is in attendance and she can give us a little bit more detail on the why this is being requested, but uh we heard from Nyama and her teams that uh there is a desire for additional ADA parking. I'm sure everyone in this room has been to the library numerous times. There is one ADA parking stall within the parking lot. And I'll call it one maybe and a quarter, maybe a half of a parking spot because they're not really marked. It's just yellow on the curb where the existing parking is on Marro Drive where people have that preferential treatment for that 88 parking stall on the southern side of the entrance way of the library. So with that ask, uh, Maxine, our staff engineer, looked into the details to see what would actually fit and the best configuration based on recommendations to basically go from the existing two spots to add an additional three. Uh, and the additional three would be on roads. So you'll see the

exhibit on the screen. This is the north side of the public library on Marorrow. uh you'll see that it's just backtoback parking spots right now. It there's no 15-minute parking or anything else on that northern side. It's just uh first come first serve, I'll call it, as far as parking on that roadside. So, in order to optimize preferential treatment for those ADA parking stalls, made sense to uh basically do book endings, let's call it that, right? Uh for both the north and the south side to have ADA. So if we go to the next exhibit, Anna, so that's where uh on the northern side is existing ADA parking and you'll see that there's a curb cut uh entrance ramp from the sidewalk to the street. So we want to properly mark that like uh the committees and boards have approved for the elementary schools for instance the high school to really make sure that no one parks within that ramp area for anyone that has special needs wheelchair accessibility strollers what have you to really keep that clear of vehicles and then we would have ADA parking both on the north and the south end of that section of Marorrow as well. So there' be one additional ADA parking would be proposed within this area. So that would go into that 15minute parking area by a smidge. So that would change as far as just more of that drop off and pick up where people quickly drop off their books. So just want to be clear about that ask and the potential impact for other individuals.

Would would you eliminate the one that's in if we've got four along the street? Would you eliminate the one in the parking lot or leave that? That is not being proposed that that would stay. And we didn't look into a removal, so I don't know based on parking lots that there might be an actual requirement because that's more of a formal ADA spot for vans and accessibility. Um my stepfather-in-law uses he's a quadriplegic, so he'd probably use the parking lot still because you don't want them exiting onto the street. So, it depends on your level of need that I would probably recommend to keep that parking lot there. That's the question I had. So, this image, I don't know where this Well, actually, the one right up there.

Um, so my father-in-law used a motorized uh wheelchair as well, and they always exit the side or typically the side. How does the striping help here? It basically it's protection for that that ramp that you don't want vehicles parked there. Does it help like for like the instance of that van and how that basically the ramp comes out and it have to go onto the sidewalk itself in order to gain access? Really wouldn't help out in that instance. It's more for people with walkers, strollers, anything like that just to make sure that we're not blocking or someone gets too close to that area. Uh so it's more of like a striping protective measure between the two stalls.

Okay. For some reason I was thinking that it was um like a loading uh like an area. you know, it's more prevent parking, I would say. Perfect.

So, uh, other than that, one other thing since we were looking at the request from library staff is if you go maybe a slide, the next slide, um, we wanted to look at the bike and ped study because it did make mention of, um, additional sighteline improvements at this specific intersection. So on the corner of Fleetwood and Marorrow, we have the existing RRFB push button. It's great. A lot of people use it all the time. Um, but it it is tough and I use it with my kids all the time when I'm crossing Fleetwood or crossing basically going uh west to east, east to west. With the existing parking, it's tough to see around those those vehicles, especially on that western side. So there's studies that have been done to see how much of a distance you need for that sighteline visibility to create that daylighting of a crossing. So Maxine put that together with that blue line of what you need on a 25 mph road based on sight visibility and what you need for that timing to come to a stop in order to see the pedestrians in a crosswalk. And that's what we came up with is basically an additional 35 feet of additional no parking restrictions. So it would be a total of 58 ft on that western side of Marorrow in order to enhance sight line visibility of pedestrians crossing to the library. And on the other side, so to the right of this graphic, the east, by shifting over your ADA stalls on that southern side of the road, you're also increasing your sighteline visibility because of the shift in that ADA parking stall. So, because that used to be that space and a half in order to conform to those two ADA spots, we're actually

increasing sight wine visibility on both sides of Marorrow. So, we figured it's in the bike and ped study. Might as well just kind of package this all together to increase safety, increase ADA accessibility recommendations. So, Nyama, the floor is yours. I'm just up here in case anyone has any questions for me. You did a great job explaining it. How many spots do you lose on the west side, do you think? On the west side, I believe I don't know if Maxine put that in there, but I It's spelled out. guessing it's three. I'm guessing it's about three. Yeah, it's about 20 feet per uh ang our uh street parking. So, yeah, it's going to be three spots.

Those indeed are primed. They are. Yeah, those are very heavily used

and I spoke to the police chief about this before we presented and one thing that's underutilized that we believe is Fleetwood that the the side road is not really parked up as much. Whenever I am a user, it's definitely Marorrow all the time. To your point, those three spots next to the RRFB and that intersection on Marble, absolutely always parked up. So, that would be a change. That would be a difference. But I don't believe that there's a lack of parking spots. It's more of probably nature of habit and get as close as possible to cross the road. So, it would definitely be a change. It would alter available parking on Marorrow, but people are crossing. So even when they're parking there, it would help them cross the road by not having that as part of it. So that's just our recommendation uh to the public works committee.

I'm I'm also thinking the unintended consequences that now no one would be able to park in those three prime spots and now it's going to start, you know, in the parking spot four, five, six, seven, eight and that people will start crossing midblock instead of going to the RFB. So, like you're you're pushing the problem around a little bit. Um because pe people aren't going to walk 60 feet and then and and use the crosswalk instead. They're just going to cut across the street. I mean, that's just human nature in terms of So, like I'm not uh It already happens. It true. It already happens. If you're car four,

if you're car four, right? And so now none, nobody's gonna be, you know, from those that from the west side of Marbor, probably nobody's going to use the crosswalk anymore. I mean, but the door the entrance to the library doesn't change. So if you cross the street immediately and then walk 60 ft to the door or you walk 60 feet to the crosswalk and then cross legally, like you're not wrong, but we all know what's going to happen. But you are walk the door to get to the and then going back north. Human nature is going to have people hop across the street.

So, how how I believe it is like Matt being an individual and Matt with my two kids, I behave differently. Right? And when I have my two children walking to the library, I'm going to probably make a better choice than me going to drop off book one, right? So, we are designing for Matt with two kids to have the safest crossing possible or for children to be taught the right way for the safest crossing possible. Are we going to change me as an independent guy from quickly running across the road and playing Frogger? No. I know that's going to happen. But the point is we're trying to make this enhanced and safer for families or people that need that extra time that really can't cross quickly. So, I I do believe there's enough parking in order to accommodate. And will human behavior prevail on both ends? Absolutely. But I think it's our job to make it safer for those kids and people that really need that push button crossing.

Amen. To make it safer. Let's make the best parking situation we can. And if someone, as Matt describes it, wants to play Frogger, God bless them. Uh I wish them the best. I hope they make it. Uh but we have plenty of safe options for them to cross. Is that your motion that they they want to play Frogger? Good luck to you. I recommend good luck to all the people who playing Frogger. Yes. Uh any little committee questions, comments? This I think this is a good plan. I'm not sure uh how uh Naami you feel or the library board feels about it, but this feels better to me.

This developed quickly enough that it has not gone to the board, but it's gone to myself and the leadership team, and we all thought that that was reasonable. Even myself from the other side trying to set an example and walk to the light instead of frog. It's still it's still there. you're kind of stepping out and like are they going to stop? Are they not? Um and they can't even see you until you step out. So having more sighteline there I think would definitely be an improvement. Do where do you you ask employees to park? Where do I ask police? Employees. Oh, employees. They typically park in the lot. A lot. Okay. I'm just curious. Uh

a lot of our staff actually bike to work. Is there anyone here to speak to this particular parking? Okay. In that case, do you want to make a motion, Jacob? Yeah. U go through all three. Go ahead and just do a part a hat trick.

We can go to request two. Improve traffic safety on the intersection of Bell Avenue and Shore Drive. So, this is pretty darn close to Clo Park. Uh earlier this year in May, uh we were contacted by a village resident that expressed some concerns and we do get traffic safety concerns pretty often, I'd say. And we have a tracking spreadsheet and based on the concerns, police chief and myself go through accident data. We set up data collectors where we have two of them now that was approved through the board and the committees. We uh monitor with police to make sure that uh people are compliant with this. Uh so there's like all a melody of different data and analytics that we look at based on resident concerns. Some of them they're valid and they come through committee and we discuss them and there's recommendations that come out of them. Some of them not so much. And after we show the data that speeding really wasn't a speeding problem, we do two weeks of collections and the average 85th percentile is maybe only a couple miles an hour over the speed limit. That usually suffices where perceptions are are changed based on the reality of the data. So anyway, fast forward to this topic. We went through that same process where the resident was concerned um and observed traffic speeds and near misses with that intersection. If the committee remembers, this is one of the 21 uncontrolled intersections within the village. This has no accidents reported over the last 10 years. We did make recommendations for that one intersection, Wilshshire and Kramer, which just got marked and we have the stop sign now. So

lovely. Glad you like it. I think it turned out really nice. It did. Mhm.

So again, we we modify as needed. So anyway, we went through uh this one and we do not recommend stop signs because we're trying to educate residents, especially that stop signs don't equate to traffic calming. Um no traffic engineer would ever recommend putting stop signs in if there's a speeding concern. There's other measures that would be recommended for that. So, uh, we use that within our template to inform residents, um, that that's not really a thing that we do. And there's a lot of, uh, other communities that have boiler plates that we actually copied from, uh, TOSA. That's the same language with why stop signs are not recommended. So, I did copy and paste that version.

Okay. Uh, I mean there's pe there's people coming from all directions on that with the intersection from not just the crosswalk. They're coming from the parks everything. And I mean I I do my morning walks out there too. And uh people making turns there. A lot of people maybe they're not familiar with that area. They come down to see the lake. Uh you got that parking lot coming out there. No stop signs. And I I just think I'm surprised there hasn't been any close calls in 10 yards. I'm very surprised about that because

I actually thought there was a stop sign at the end of Bell. I I for years did an exercise class at Clo Park on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I always stopped there,

but it's probably because I didn't want to get hit. I mean, I it's kind of the same way it is with over at Wilshire because we've got another uncontrolled intersection that's way worse than the one we put the stop sign at, I think. But, um, because you can't see. This one is one of those things where you can see. So, I I'm I'm not saying there shouldn't be a stop sign, but like I feel like in my head I thought there was one and I always stopped. And maybe it's just because I knew there was no stop this way. It might not be that they're speeding, but at least when you stop, you can kind look and see. Yeah. I mean, there's so they're just coming from all directions.

You're you're absolutely not wrong as far as highly congested, very busy, especially in the peak of summer. And that's why we went on to investigate this more, right? Because we knew that there was a seriousness of this concern of near misses and everything else. So in June of this year, uh, police chief and myself looked at this is more so we felt like a sighteline visibility because cars are able to basically be pretty darn close to that intersection. It is very difficult to see around vehicles to make a turn movement, especially from Bell going eastbound either north or south and most people going to the parking lot of Cody Park. So with that, uh, I put out temporary no parking on Shore Drive, both on the north and the south side, and it was out there for months, and we monitored it through the police department. I don't know if any board member heard any negativity of the temporary no parking, but I I spoke to the the resident to the south and asked if it it was okay as far as permission to put those temporary no parking signs in front of their property and just to monitor the situation and see if it's better for us, our staff, the PD. And it really helped out with that sighteline visibility. Um, and that's what's really in in front of us is not just traffic control through stop signs because again I think it's more of a sighteline visibility based on that. And if you look at the actual map and like it was said like there's a walking path very close by. We just rewood chipped. It's heavily used and you have cars parked in between the walking path then too. So, does this impede uh high popular parking opportunities for the use of CO? Absolutely. It it really does. I mean, every spot is precious, especially during major events, kids soccer activities, recreation. I mean,

it it's it's a dense park and I I recognize that. Uh but with it with the parking lot that's just to the east uh other on street parking available having that sighteline visibility for motorists as well as having that walkway that crosses Northshore Drive. It made sense from a sighteline visibility to have uh an increase in no parking uh in that section of Northshore Drive to the north as well as additional no parking uh to the south in order to increase and enhance those sight line visibilities. So that's what's in front of the committee is to amend that traffic map um for no parking sign to be placed 20 feet to the south. I'm sorry, not that I'm looking at the other one for no parking. 95 feet to the north of Bell Avenue on North Drive and then 35 feet to the south on Bell Avenue. So, open it up for comments, questions, other feedback, which I appreciate with the stop signs. Um, but that's just putting on engineering hats as far as what those recommendations are of how we manage stop signs and those recommendations versus sitewide visibility. Any other committee comments before we open up to public?

I would just say I mean that's I also walk you my dog and my kids in that area. Um crossing the sidewalk on the south of Bell there's like a little sidewalk that uh comes across the other side. Um it is kind of harrowing sometimes and it like uh I think we could have further discussions about a stop sign but I think increasing the sight lines by removing the parking is a good idea. Okay. Sure. And if you could start with your name and address.

Yes. I'm John Bassendale. I live at 5842 Northshore Drive, which is just directly south of the park. Uh I've lived there for over 24 years. And I estimate I've probably been through that intersection 50,000 times in those 24 years. So, uh, I feel like I've seen it through the not only the busy times in the summer and fall when the it's most busy, but throughout the year and there's a number of different issues. First of all, I want to thank Matt for coming out and recognizing this issue and trying to address it. And I applaud any effort to make it a safer park because it gets a lot of families and often times a lot of kids, well mostly kids, but oftentimes a lot of parents that aren't really looking for cars coming. They'll park and they're getting out going across. There's all kinds of stuff. So sighteline visibility is great. Uh but I think this is a very unique intersection being that it's essentially three ways. no stop signs going either way and then you've got the parking lot which adds to that. So I do think you know in reading through some of the US Department of Transportation recommendations about stops stop signs and uh speeding. I'm not sure this is really a speeding issue like you said. Uh sight lines definitely uh will help. It's just I don't think most people know what to do when they come to a who's got the right of way and the reality is most people say well I must have the right away because they come around that corner uh oftenimes looking at their cell phone cup of coffee thinking about something else and that's again we can't protect

against stupid behavior but that is what happens there and while there may not be any reported accidents. I know personally of accidents that have taken place there, whether they get reported or not. And near misses, I'm, you know, it's once a month where when I approach that corner, you know, I am on the lookout and often times it's someone because they're making the wide turn there coming directly towards you. And of and that's a problem because the other thing that happens up and down there, you've got landscape contractors parked on the wrong side of the street. You've got parking on both sides of the street across from the park. So people are driving down the center and making a turn into is the what's the center? So I do think that no parking is a great first step. I truly feel that at least one stop sign would be a great idea and like you mentioned I think the best thing would be at the end of Bell because that would stop people there at least if they're following the rules and then better be able to make the turn along with what you've recommended here I think would be a great uh first step. Um, and I guess the other thing is then to make sure we enforce those laws because I know while those parking no parking signs are out there, like no parking on the east side of the street, people park there all the time. And even with the no parking, temporary no parking when the soccer games are going on, people park there because, hey, I'm just going to be five minutes. It's everyone's got the excuse. delivery truck drivers, everything. So, it's a very congested corner that can be, in my opinion, made

safer by adding a stop sign at the end of Bell. And that's Thank you. Okay. Thank you very sign coming out of the parking lot though, right? Is there one at the end of Yes, I think so, too. There's a I don't think there's a stop sign coming out of the parking lot. Yeah, like at the park where you come out. Is there one there? There he is. Okay. Yeah, I was thinking. All right. Thank you. Is anyone else here for that particular

Oh, Eric Jacobski, uh, 5867 Northshore, right at the intersection of Shore and Bell. Echo everything that's been said. Um, super busy intersection, especially in the summer. Uh, sight lines are bad. Um, I think a stop sign would be uh, worth considering. I do agree with this as a first step. Um but yeah, just some of the experience we've had as well. The temporary no parking signs are great. Um there was an incident where um someone removed one and parked there. Uh so I had to replace it. Um which is fine. Um but and and and like was previously said, often the yellow no parking curbs right at the corner there on Bell um when it's super busy, soccer, yoga, whatever, summer beach, um people can ignore those yellow curbs and just park there anyway. So, I think the sightelines is a good first step. Uh, but I do think that thinking about a stop sign in the future at one of those either bell or at shore makes sense because again you have people coming from three different directions with no stop. You have pedestrians both on the sidewalk and on the wood chip trail. Um, and then you have the parking lot as well. um it just leads to um a lot of congestion all in the safe same place and there's situations where people don't know who has the right away. So,

thank you. And one question while you're up there, uh since we're proposing 20 ft, that would require a sign in order to indic indicate basically no parking from here to corner. So, being a homeowner right on that corner, I just want to make sure you were aware that it wouldn't be just the yellow striped uh curving that if this passes through committees and boards that there would be an additional sign. Sure. Okay. Want to make sure we were clear about that. Thank you. Another piece of clarification is simply the the yellow paint and that we discovered that it basically has no legal impact. It just it's yellow paint and um it it doesn't mean no parking. It just means uh I don't even know what it means.

If it's 15 ft away from an intersection, it is enforceable because every intersection has that same rule. But regardless of paint though, like the paint doesn't change the status of there would have to be a sign that indicates of anything beyond the 15 ft. So yes, you're right. That has to be signed. I would say the more we talk about how yellow paint has no legal effect, the more you take away the magic of the yellow paint. So we should not talk about that. All right, let's keep it a secret. Well, and there is a fire hydrant on the north side of Bell near the intersection where the yellow paint is as well. So, whatever rules fire hydrant, too.

No, I'm I'm I'm looking at Google Maps and 2024 and there's no yellow paint there. So, maybe in the last year there's last Yeah, last year is when it was Oh, great. Great. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else on this one? Okay, then moving on to

last one. Request number three, Santa Monica Boulevard, no parking amendment. So, this one's uh pretty straightforward that on the intersection of Santa Monica and Mount Clare. Um, yeah, you can see it in this uh Google Street View that I included. uh a developer uh recently purchased that property that's been on the market for some time on that northeastern corner of the intersection. And you'll see right on the right hand side of that screenshot is there's no parking there. So back in the day that used to be the red line as uh was informed to me for a bus route that no longer is there. So, uh, the developer, uh, would like to increase parking opportunities for their patrons that would be visiting the storefront for interior decorating. So, the ask was made, uh, a few months ago. And since we had other things on the docket, it made sense to include this within the packet because there's no need if there's no bus that's going to be stopped there for drop offs and pickups to modify our existing uh parking map in order to accommodate for future customers. The one thing that Chief and myself looked at is again the 15 ft is our ordinance as far as the no parking restrictions from an intersection. We felt it prudent to increase that to 20 feet just for increased sighteline visibility as it's next to a school church. It's a heavy traffic area. Chief receives a lot of reports of concerned families that use that as um a crossing. So, we still wanted to give a little bit of cushion for that sighteline visibility because it is a two-way and not a four-way intersection just to enhance that and make sure that people really are being protective of that intersection from crossing. So that would be one thing that we would do is shift over that uh no parking from here to corner uh 20 ft

uh to the south of Santa Monica intersection of Mount Clair. I mean I understand I mean the logic that you gave was fine. We just don't have no parking signs. Why are we being inconsistent about having a no parking here to corner sign a block north? We don't have it. I mean you know what I mean? Like because it was a bus stop previously, right? But you're saying keep it 15 feet. I would I would say don't have a sign. That's all. Well, I think then then it can't be 20 ft, right? It would not be able to be 20 ft. You can only do 15 feet unless you So the sign is only so that you can have the additional five feet.

Five feet. And I I apologize. What was the reason for an additional 5T? Because of the school and the church and the amount of traffic that's going across there. I think you expressed your concern of this intersection. in the past state um it's downhill coming people can get steep where you can get yeah I think uh I think it's a good idea about having parking 20 ft so based on the recommendation of the business owner we're just trying to thread that needle of where can we still keep it as safe as possible and still accommodate for for businesses and customers that would want to use that storefront Yep. Come on.

I'm the business owner, Sydney Brangle. Nice to meet you guys. Um, so we were also considering asking if part of it could be a loading zone. So maybe we could compromise that we would only have it when we're delivering product um to the space that it would be a loading zone from 15 for one space like a 5 foot or Well, yeah, I think it would be larger than that, but it might help accommodate most people wouldn't be parking there. Then on the intersection side, so more on the it would be the north side of the Santa Monica Mount Clair. That might be a way to compromise. Oh, so how big of a loading zone would that be?

What do you typically have for vehicles, I guess, would be my question to you. Usually it's like a hernia truck at the most. So not that large. I think we would need, we're looking to do a little light retail there and our existing clientele does come into our office daily. Um, so we were just hoping to have as many parking spots as we could to accommodate that. I I'm sorry. I don't understand. You You have a parking lot in front of your We do not We're not the where the building Oh, you're next to it. Yep. Ah, going to restore it to its cuteness. And what's the name of your business? This is not what it's about. I just Okay. Thank you.

Yep. It's been around for 20 plus years, but my partner and I are the owners for the past year. We're relocating it to Whitefish Bay. So, how Oh, so you're not in the Sturgeon former building or whatever. You're in the 5958. Got it. Uh 59 or 5966. I don't know that a loading zone would be directly in front of your property, though. I think it would be I mean if we're I guess I'm not quite it would probably be in front of the st the old sturgeon interiors into part of our area. Um we would like as many parking spots as we can but we're willing to work with what works best for the neighborhood.

I I'm working on getting there too. Just trying to see. So if Got it too. Yeah, I've got it. So, what would 20 feet Where would 20 feet? Yeah, we might need to go back and reconsider this. Well, I guess this isn't the one all be all with that because that wasn't part of the original request, right? So I for parking parking but

and maybe it's just seeing how much you have for deliveries and how much that would impact your customers and then come back to public works if it really becomes an issue because right now it's probably an unknown that you're not open of like when your peak hours are when is your delivery hours? You've been in business for 20 years so we do know all of that. Okay. Is there hours are just 9:30 to 5? Um deliveries are seldom um but do happen. So, um, yeah, UPS is usually who delivers most of our product, but sometimes furniture. Typically, we don't have drop like delivery UPS spots along Absolutely. We'd prefer the parking if you'd allow it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just stick with plan.

I would recommend that, too. You don't want to reserve a spot for for delivery that don't have super infrequent, you know, chances. Absolutely. Yeah. I I believe what you're saying is it's currently no parking in front of your business, right? We just purchased the property. That makes sense. So like that entire frontage is no parking currently. I think the challenge is we don't know right now in this meeting the reasoning for that and we'd want to go back and see if we can discover that. It was historically a bus stop. I think the or 68 was the red line. But I was confused by that too.

Yeah. Oh, that I mean there was there was less used to run up Santa Monica all the way up into Fox Point and a number of years ago they eliminated the extension into Fox Point. So the so I guess it was a different maybe it was the Was it the 16? My dad, but okay. I thought it was the Yes, we've actually had quite a few people. Oh, that's that's why it was a bus line and then when they when they reconfigured the bus lines, it became the red line and it then ended before it went up into Fax Point. When we've been working with Joel, um he recommended we request this. Got it.

And that removal of the no parking makes complete sense because that's an it's an old system. It's antiquated with the bus line no longer being there. My only addition to that was just increased sight line visibility for pedestrians. So going from 15 uh 15 feet that's common on all intersections as far as where your adult parking would be is to enhance that by 20 feet just for as Jim said by five feet. Enhance it by five feet. So you have just a little bit more visibility across the So I'm trying to figure out then where will it be no parking from? Like the second tree we would put up a new sign. Yeah, I know. But I'm just visual purposes, right? I think there's another

for me to understand like Hannah, if you can scroll to the next slide. Yeah, I think that's a bad angle. I think it would go parking in front of where Sturgeon Interiors used to be and then right free up parking in front of Haven Interiors. So the blue spot is only what would be no parking coming correct future. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Any other And to put up a sign, you'd probably need to Is there a parkway there or is it If it's grass, yeah, we would just It's grass. Yeah. So, that'd be easy enough for us to do. We would basically hydroac and plop a sign in. Got it. That's the technical terminology.

Very good. Plop. Okay. Any other questions, thoughts, concerns? No. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Now that we've gone through all three of these, I would entertain a motion. I do that. Go for it.

All right. I would recommend to the village board to amend the official traffic map. Two, designate three additional ADA parking spaces at Whitefish Bay Public Library and North Marorrow and restrict 58 ft of parking on the northwest corner of Marorrow and Fleetwood Place. Two, designate no parking 95 feet to the north of Bell Avenue on Northshore Drive and designate designate no parking 35 feet to the south of Bell Avenue on Northshore Drive. And three, remove ordinance 1466 to amend the official traffic map to relocate no parking sign to be placed 20 ft south of Santa Monica Boulevard intersection of Montlair Avenue. Right. Any other discussion? Looking for a second.

I'll second it. But I do we want us Do we And I don't think we need to say this, but can we make a note to circle back about Belle and Yeah. Shore after we see how things go a little bit? That's recommend. Sure. Sure. Well, then maybe we I mean, I just wonder because I I do sort of think a stop sign makes sense at the end of Bell. I don't think we need a three-way stop. I don't that seems excessive but but then again if there haven't been accidents I mean I know you have the records but it kind of and it sort of see because it does dead end there there's nowhere to go forward that's why I think I always stopped even though apparently there isn't a stop sign I stopped anyway

the additional data once we've got the sightelines taken care of now we know that this is a question spot we'll monitor that

this this is what I would say to any request for stop signs or traffic calming and that is that um the the the village, the DPW, the police go through a data gathering, you know, experience um and then they make a recommendation. What what we have, you know, also is anecdotes. And so you see two people speeding through an intersection, you say, "Oh, this is terrible. We need to fix this." But then you go back to the data and you say, "Well, the data doesn't prove that out." And so I I I don't like to get in the habit of making exceptions because we have anecdotes, right? Instead, we need to have like a datadriven scenario of we we examine an intersection, we come up with an answer, and we stick with it, you know, and if the anecdotes don't match that, you know, that that that makes people unhappy. Except that you you need you need a a system. Otherwise, there's always going to be anecdotes about intersections.

Sure. But I think the people living there living a real life the cops that are just there occasionally. The speeding is not the issue. Yeah. Well, and so what I would suggest is that we are we are making a change to this intersection now. So we're making a change to the intersection. We will see what you know what kind of feedback we get anecdotally and if anecdotally we are hearing there's still a problem we can revisit it with new data if we need new data. Does that make more sense? Yeah. I mean I just meant put it on our our radar. Sort of you put it on your radar you come back. How's that? Yeah. Well and and I mean let's seriously see if you're seeing changes.

Yeah. Listen, I understand they did they measured it and I understand one person, but it's been over 20 years and sounds like other people see the same thing. I just don't want to wait until there is a right a serious accident. Well,

I mean because I I hear what you're saying. I where I live there are two uncontrolled intersections on either end of my and we did put a stop sign at one which is great. the other one. I'm sure there have been no accidents there because in some ways there's better visual, but it's three streets coming together instead of two. And it's this crazy thing where every day I see people stop and they don't have accidents, but they're all kind of like, you know, all over the place. And people are crossing with their dogs, me included, when I probably shouldn't be. And you know, so sometimes live, that's my point is that I'm sure there haven't been any accidents at the other one, right?

But that doesn't mean that oh my gosh, there haven't been some dumb moves, included by the people that live there. Yep. So, we've got it on our radar and we're definitely going to monitor it and and potentially revisit it going forward. So, we have a motion and we have a second. Do we um All in favor? I oppose. All right, moving on to the public works report. Is there anything specific we want to highlight or anyone anybody has questions about? I don't necessarily think we need to go through the whole thing. I'm here if there's any questions by any committee members. So, I include it. I highlight it in red. We love that you do it because very helpful.

Well, you're very welcome and it just it keeps you apprised on all the major projects. So, uh, again, and committee members, village board can always reach out after the fact if there's more of an engaged discussion one-on-one. More than happy to have that. Yep. I'm I appreciate the fact that you took time and went over and met with Lacassa residents. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That was a very good meeting. Very productive. Good. Maybe you need to highlight what time the meeting's at next time because I was here at 4 today. Uh, I was here at 3:30 if that makes you feel any better. So, totally forgot. I'm with you. Hey, and when I looked at the agenda, I was like, "Oh, council was like stopping for a couple minutes before and I showed up."

I have two questions for Matt. Uh, the first is a few months ago. I thought we were going down the path of getting solar panels on the top of the library.

Yes, actually we are still going down that path. Anna, thank you so much for doing a bulk of the work. So if you remember the old way of doing it with the DPW facility was we could do a lease agreement. That's no longer a thing. So we have to go out to bid per state statute. So Anna really helped out because we had to have plans specifications. We have to have a competitive document to go out to bid. So it got clunky from where we wanted to streamline things to where we are now. And of course everyone on the committee knows where our priorities were over the last three months. So, I uh reached out to Sigma. They have a buildings division to look over Anna's documents and package on our behalf in order to expedite that because I do want to get things bid out by December. That's my ultimate goal to ensure that we don't lose any of those incentives or more importantly that it keeps on moving as far as how much has to be Americanmade with the domestic product and after the turn of the year if you don't have agreeables that there's a risk that the things that you specked out might not have that percentage and then it goes down.

In conclusion, you got it covered and with luck we will have it wrapped up before the end of the year. I mean, not wrapped up, but um we're not gonna we're not going to lose any of the incentives. That's our ultimate goal. So, that's all I was cared about. Yep. Um the next piece is I think in the next month, won't Library Park be getting a whole bunch of trees and bushes? Yeah. So, that that will be exciting one. That's that'll be this fall. Absolutely. This is the it's right right now, isn't it?

Well, my ultimate goal is to try to do dormant plantings. It's best for species and everything else. We had a basically checking with the contractor. It's already been bid out. So, we're looking at our staff availability to do the site prep because there's shrubs, bushes, vegetation that need to be removed. So, we're maybe outsourcing that because of our staff time that we can commit to that. So, uh hopefully within the next month or two, you should see sometime in Novemberish. Yeah, I would say Novemberish is a probably a good time. And then our path that we're going to have. Is it okay to plant into December in the ground? It's great. Um, what do you do about watering then?

That's the beauty is you don't have to with dormant plantings because I the root mass is dormant. So, it's great because you have the snow mass, you have the spring rains when you typically can't get equipment in there. It really just irrigates itself. So, I love doing plantings late in season. When should you plant grass? For years. You can do sod in winter even too if you want. Let's say I just have a small lawn. You'll be okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. Start throwing it out now. Like giddy up.

I think everyone here recognizes this, but I I just want to say it for Matt's sake that we I have really pushed to the forefront of his priorities, which has meant that specifically those two projects have fallen by the back burner. And so that was intentionally done so in order to prioritize that. And so it is it is possible this may not get done this year. I mean with the library. Yeah. No, it was that. Okay. Just want to be clear that. I just wanted to give you the grace if you needed to say that. Okay.

No, it it was bid out strategically because I was concerned of staff maintenance to water. And so our bid documents always said fall November dormcy planting because we had such a lift with Coll Park. a lot of vegetation that we had to maintain over there that from a strategic standpoint, we always intended to have this as a fall project. Okay. Yeah, I knew that. I I I thought you were just gonna say, "Yeah, they're coming in a month and hooray for us." But yeah, no, they they have everything secured, allocated. The one thing that wouldn't happen probably this year because it would be our staff is to put the pathway in. So, that'll probably be like a, you know, springish of next year where we just have to get a get steer in there. Yeah. Okay. Any other specific?

I also want to mention, it's in the report, but Matt and his team have been out and about putting cones all over creating lots of traffic calling. The other day I called him and you were out putting placing cones. Y I called and observing. Um so thank you for all your work on that. Are you thinking at all about putting any of those on that area by Clo since we are hearing that it's getting ignored anyway? the areas by well the colon that we just changed to no parking.

Oh yeah. I mean that's we actually did that on Santa Monica and Silver Spring by Starbucks. Yeah. I threw a bunch of cones where the bike racks are now because I was sick of people doing their GrubHub drop off deliveries over there. So it's not a bad idea. I actually people were um our electrician he saw people chuck our cones out of the way so they could still park there. So it works but not for all. Well, I saw some of our cones graduated to the white polishards or whatever you call them. Like it's these semi-mporary

the delineators, the yellow and white ones. Yep. So that's on Santa Monica. Uh we have that next to uh Dominican. Yep. And then we also have them of course by Mar Marorrow and Kfax. I've been receiving a lot of positive remarks about especially the high school one from both faculty and users and residents in that area too. So yeah, the one that's not working too smooth to be honest is Marorrow and Hampton that I had to move them several times. Even my wife went out there with our crossing guard misper during the homecoming festivities that cars were hitting them especially bus traffic, larger vehicles. So that's going to be a a tight spot.

Well, I was going to say are you because I've not I mean that's where I drive that all the time but you where the bus makes that one turn you you can't bring that. You really can't do much of anything with pride to squeeze it in there. I saw that. But but that's the beauty of cones is they get crushed and then you win. Right. But I don't think you could bump out that concrete at all though cuz is that what you're thinking you're going to do? Well, we don't you don't know still. It's more of this trial period with turn radiuses and bus traffic and will the cones survive and No, they're not going to at that spot. No, they're not. Now on the western side, it's a little bit better. But that eastern side with that bus movement, especially going west to uh north. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah,

tough move. It's hard any anytime. Like that is a really sharp term for those big buses right there. That's the beauty of, you know, purchasing these cones and trying it out and you collect your data, you observe, we we see drop off and pickup and we modify and some are going to work and some are not. And that's the beauty of these lowrisk uh traffic calming devices. Yeah. All right. Anything else? Otherwise, I would look for a motion. Move to second. I'll second. All in favor? I Thank you all very much. You go through.