Public Works Committee - Regular Meeting

oops sorry um it is four o'clock so I will call to order the Public Works meeting of February 11th um of course thank you um so first of all there going to be our review and approve of the minutes from January 13th any questions concerns thoughts I would move to approve okay do have a second second all in favor I any opposed okay meeting minutes pass um next is the discussion recommendation on the proposal for Mid City Corp um to provide inspection services for us and I'll let you take that away Matt yeah thank you so as all of the committee members know with uh 2024 of the Big Bay Buckley Park storm sewer outfall uh collapse there's been a desire by everyone including internally with Public Works committee to uh do more exploration especially on our critical infrastructure with storm water utilities just to sure that from here on out that we're more proactive and we do not have any major collapse of our storm sewers so there is a desire for us to have more eyes and ears especially with any outfalls that have a similar type of depth such as Big Bay Buckley Park that was over 70 feet deep and that's why it was so expensive with5 A5 million dollar to get that one repaired so as part of that exercise uh in front of us this evening is a storm sewer outfall inspection that really reviews those critical assets on the Lake Michigan side so there is an attachment that shows all of our basins approximately uh half of them go to the Lake Michigan side and then the Western go to Milwaukee River um so there's different outfall for all of our storm sewers so the Milwaukee River ones are more shallow in comparison to the Lake Michigan just based on the hillside the

bluff and the elevations so Mid City uh Corporation there our construction manager at risk doing all of our um oversight of construction activities as we speak to get that outfall back up and running so I do personally have um uh good faith I would say with mid city being a capable contractor that really understands not only our uh project at hand here but how to explore investigate and give us a report so we are able to uh have those recommendations if any based on them exploring and being in confined space entry of those manhole structures Associated to the actual outfalls so we've identified those manholes that are similar in size and scope to the Big Bay in Buckley Park as well as those outfall locations on the attached map so this work we're hoping to have the report back uh on our before May 1st of this year and we have included the actual report uh or the proposal from mid city corporations to to provide those Services uh for us so this is the first critical element um just to have eyes ears and recommendations that we can put into future Capital Improvement project lists as needed so with that mid city is proposing a budget of $ 38,700 to do physical inspections reports and recommendations so I'm seeking uh recommendations to move this on to village board and one of the questions that I had asked Matt when we were discussing this was whether an inspection might have caught um our our sinkhole before it happened and the answer to that was yes and so to me that seems like pretty good argument so any um comments this going to be a onetime thing or are they gonna I I would say that this is the kickoff just as I put

in my memo I think that the village DPW does a fantastic job as they've done for 20 30 years with our sanitary sewer and we're on a threeyear cycle to clean televis report and we build in what we've see through our CCTV to actually make recommendations for either replacement or lining I really want to gear up we're in that same general mindset with our other utility infrastructure being water utility as well as storm sewer so this is our primary just to get ahead of those critical infrastructure points but this isn't a oneand done this is going to really be the the precursor to build in more of a standard operating procedure for us to internalize and figure out a process that we can do for inspection and Reporting internally because these are so deep and we don't have the right equipment and tools to get in these 70 foot deep structures it makes more sense to Outsource that because of the safety risks involved but not of our all of our storm sewer Watershed is at that depth because it's all gravity based so there's going to be a lot of things that we can clean televis report back on with that infrastructure as well so this is I'm going to say the kickoff event to being better stewards of our infrastructure another question yeah that was kind of tied to my question about so this $38,000 is that going to be something that'll sort of be built into the village budget going forward even if it's not every year every three or something I think that's going to be part of the recommendation and it it really depends on how often what we see this first time around for especially critical ones if we're seeing things that are questionable with cracking spalling anything that might be where you need to have an annual inspection to see if they don't get worse we'll do measurements to see if some of those cracks are actually increasing um so that way I think this recommendation and

the reporting is going to kind of be a precursor to how much monitoring or maybe it'll just be hey just like we're doing um a cure and place pipe for Big Bay Buckley Park maybe that's going to just be the recommendation basic Bas on the degradation of that of the of the pipe itself so I think once we have that we're going to have a better basis as far as budgets what we can do inhouse and what we'll need to Outsource based on more of the technical nature I think my only comment is maybe one to Kelsey and that I assume we'll pass this I assume we'll uh have mid city do the report and I know you have monthly report meetings with the NorthShore manager folks um I think you should impress upon the managers of Shorewood and Fox Point that they should follow this process because we are the poster child of not of not examining the outfalls and their infrastructure is just as old as ours we'll do is there anyone from the public here to speak on this I throw it out there just very important um given that there's no other concern and no other questions anyone want to make a recommendation I'll move to approve the mid city court proposal to inspect uh the remaining Lake Michigan Storm sewer outfalls uh for $ 38,700 second all right all in favor I oppos all right moving on to uh number four uh discussion recommendation to Safe School tap Grant improvements so this is a fun one actually I've been reporting on our safe school zones for uh several months now and we were able to really optimize the

remainder of arpa funding to really Kickstart again uh another project being a lot of our safe school zones and school zones in general so we have eight public and private schools within the village of White Fish Bay and there is a previous study in 2020 two that identified uh some recommendations with signage uh rectangular rapid Flash and beaking for Crossings to make them safer and some other options available and using that 2022 study there was a grant applied to through uh the do which The Village was awarded for 622,000 and it's a 8020 split so 80% either federal or state 20% on the village uh the main onus of the original uh proposal dealt exclusively with signage more than anything else and since we were able to optimize arpa funds and do a direct purchase where we didn't have to worry about all the other Federal requirements we were able to do that inhouse and really move forward with the signage components for all eight schools so that that's in motion we just received the signs actually this week so we'll be gearing up for the next couple years for us to be able to imple implement that but what that did is that unlocked locked the 622,000 to be enhanced with the original I idea of those eight different schools and how we can further enhance and protect and create safer Crossings and intersections within those school zones so after discussions with the do and um AR Smith is our top uh consultant to help us with this exercise we determined what would actually be more value added other than just signage within those school zones and that's where we came to the conclusion of within this memo and the attachments is for bump outs and Crossing improvements that are going to be actually concrete structures that will be permanent to

those school zones so we're still doing the signage enhancements so this is additional efforts to make our school zone safer so because of the tap Grant and timeline requirements the do needs a three-party agreement between us the consultant and do to identify five locations that will be basically the basis of Design Elements going through this so this is kind of like the precursor because no design has been done it's more so for us to determine identify the locations that's in our best interest to have these enhancements for safer Crossings within our school zone so the police chief and myself sat down and really wanted to identify based on our recommendations the chief's observation over as many years of service here where we think it would be advantageous Within These seven areas to do these enhancements and that's what's in front of you with these exhibits and recommendations the options are not in any rank or order but we just wanted to distribute as far as with all the school zones to be as Equitable as possible based on the locations where we've done other projects other enhancements so uh we're just trying to share the wealth and it's all about continuous process and so even if we don't select maybe two I do believe that there will be other grant opportunities for us to continue these intersection improvements in the future but this is just because the grant only has a certain dollar amount and what we can allocate and distribute that the money can only go so far with with this phase for our school zone uh safety recommendations one thing I would say as far as when uh the committee reviews these options and gives comments back and recommendations is option one Lake Drive we already have existing overhead school zone signs the lights do not work they're

nonfunctional so in my opinion I would say that just makes sense for us to modernize something that's already there and replace it with better technology that that would work on Lake Drive so I just wanted to make sure that the committee knows that or reminder that that overhead School own signage is already there and it either needs to be modernized updated or removed so while they're not in order that one might still be number one I would recommend that would be number one just it it would be an easy way to frost and and just I mean initially when we talked about this we talked about kind of you know prioritizing the top five but cost-wise it might be that if we choose to prioritize something that costs more that costs more we won't get to all five correct it the general assumption is going to be $100,000 per area regardless regardless okay okay can I ask I know um yesterday we just unveiled our bicycle and pedestrian safety plan it gave a laundry list of things that we could do to make the community safer I would assume that some of the options and some of the things we could do with these funds could dovetail into that safety plan is that absolutely yep and we so taddy did the initial 22 report and they also did The Pedestrian bike safety study so I share our recommendations with taddy to make sure that everything's Coptic and layered that these are all compounded on top of each other okay so did anyone I mean so does anyone first of all have an objection to stting that number one is number one I do you do okay I I actually had it as number seven oh interesting that was the that was the one that I thought was was was the lowest hanging fruit of because we we basically have to remove two right is that yes um and and thinking of number one those signs are already there and

basically all you're asking to do is to re-engage the lights and so I don't I don't see that as a particular I did not look into how simple or how hard I just know that they don't work yeah and that's fine it's just um we have signage there um I I I I don't know what the Crossing patterns are in that particular area and you know how heavily they're used uh is there a crossing guard there or not a crossing guard no I don't think there's a it's just a warning as you're entering the school zone that's not an actual crossing right and so I you know I look at what is what are going to what are of one of these seven options going to be the most impactful and did I do I think some two flashing lights is going to be one of the most impactful things no I do not I think it's actually going to be the least impactful of all of them that's just my personal um thought um the signs are already there and they're in an interesting configuration there there are somewhat um uh you know signs are typically on the left or right as you drive and this is a sign that's above so it's already kind of an unusual place that hopefully gets noticed um so yeah that that was actually my lowest that was my like oh this is an easy one we won't do that to me that was highest because of because speed because of the speed that people are going when they go I mean yes I know it's supposed to be 25 but the reality is I I think many people are going faster than that and the volume of cars it seemed to me like a priority to make sure that we have as much possible there as we can yeah I I mean there's a lot of different factors I I just I I guess I look and I say we already have a sign all we're really talking about is blinking lights right not un true um and and so then you go on

to the things like and I don't know if we need to do this or how how we go we do I mean we need to come up with what our I mean and so maybe if you'd like to start with your ranking that might help I you know I didn't have a ranking other than to look and and words come out at me uh option two a bump out and intersection Improvement option three bump out intersection improvements both Santa Monica and bell and Santa Monica and day I love bump outs I think we need to have some I think I think that concrete structures are what's going to keep people safer and and if if I have the option of having a sign versus a con a piece of concrete I'm gonna take the concrete every time right agre right and so right there I I I those two immediately bubble to the top because they are they're concrete and they're bump outs um although both of those areas have uh safety patrol people but anyways uh option five and again I don't well intersection improvements uh at Bowmont and Santa Monica we discussed that in a committee meeting a month or two ago and we had some fanciful drawings they were not um professional drawings they were just these are some things we can do um I know that there's been one or two bike accidents at that particular uh area not to mention there's a school and a church right there so high volume uh I I I believe we were going to do some rete work uh I know we're going to do some you know slowing down of bikers and I think a bump out and yeah is that that's part of the traffic study and their recommendations you're correct yeah and for what it's worth um both the White Fish Bay safe group Patty and I think everyone on the board agreed that those illustrations seemed like they would do the trick versus a lot of times we'll present something and people will disagree over here but that seemed like

have broad consensus that that would be good so again concrete trumps all of the um any possible sign option five ardore and this is where it kind of gets harder uh option five bump out intersection improvements at Cumberland uh Ardmore and Hampton uh Hampton is a major major Street um that pops up to the top of my list of Marboro and Hampton option six Crossing elements or enhancements sorry not sure what Crossing enhancements are um because that's a that's a controlled Signal Street and it also has uh safety patrol folks yeah and that's for right away so we don't know what that is until we get into design survey so bump outs mean obviously you're going inside the road you're going to have certain elements that is going to give you that space needs but also based on first observations there's also ADA requirements and rightaway restrictions in some these areas so it's just worded differently because we have to go through those exercises so even by saying bump about intersection improvements we have to do all the design engineering see what we have without getting into the terminology of long-term easements or actually taking over property by doing some of these things so that's the only thing that uh why I chose different wording on the crossing enhancements is it might look a little different is it still concrete absolutely but we might just have to do different things in order to do traffic caling but but to your point it already has crossing guards crossing guards and and it's it's controlled intersection I mean that to me drops it down you know ter of priority and and that was you asked me if I had a ranking I didn't because these last three I just wasn't positive which one would have the greatest impact which has the the least safety which has the leaf safety controls that you know I mean we know that it has safety do you know what the thinking is that Marboro and um Chateau

I think it's a combination of holy family plus a park you got Hill Square so but in terms of what we would do there I think because we do own the green space in the park that would be more in that bump out where we could at least have that one corner but at at the same time I would say that some sort of concrete and bump out for that intersection we have though we've also kind of talked in longer term about marbar correct you know and so maybe the two marbar fall further down on the list in case we actually do doing something recru on marbor yeah that'll be you know in more recent plan but yeah but still that road is can be narrowing as far as expected useful life so that could be incorporated into Design Elements when we're reconstructing that road okay so you should finish your list I'm I'm done I just just a comment on yours that like also the committee does not know anything about the infrastructure below any of these intersections and if if you said Hey in five years at Mar and Chateau we're going to do a water main project uh we might we might want to delay on that so it feels like we should give you theories on what we want you to do versus giving you basically knocking two things out because we don't we don't know what other infrastructure things might go on in those intersections but go ahead Jacob uh I was going to say I agree with Kevin that bump outs are fantastic they're low maintenance they do the job they're proven to work and so um you know I was in favor of two three and five which were bump outs um option four uh the Bowmont and Santa Monica intersection again I think there was

broad consensus that that is a a really good project would yield great results and then I actually did want option one primarily I remember the discussion we had might have been two years ago maybe it was last year uh about the fact that there is not a sidewalk on the north on the sorry on the east side of um Lake Drive and I know a lot of the Neighbors in that Community some wanted a sidewalk some didn't want a sidewalk uh we wound up not putting a sidewalk in there but one of the big complaints was that it is you know it is very precarious walking your kids across Lake Drive In morning um and so whatever we can do to help that area out especially if we're not going to provide additional sidewalks I think we need to do so I would put option one back in there agree with you let's hear from Piper and Jim um I I I think I agree about the concrete one of the things that I have I was talking with Jacob about it last yesterday at the bike thing the where Hampton and wildwood which is is the street right in front of Holy Family on the side where the big church door is not where the school door necessarily is during the um drop off and pickup parents constantly jaywalk right there across with their kids from Wildwood over to Cumberland and it it's dangerous because I think a lot of the drivers myself included are not expecting that when there's a crossing guard at Ardmore and a stop sign I mean a stop light at Marboro and first of all you're not going to get a lot of speed up in between there anyway but suddenly these parents run out in front of you when you're not really expecting it so I almost feel like there either needs to be some kind of sign there that says like no Crossing not

saying that's going to work but it's you know it it really is you're you're really not expecting it as a driver when you've you know already done these stop and start things but having having been a Cumberland parent the director also goes out to not enter the grounds through the teacher parking lot which is what that is right absolutely I mean all of it is it's that little it's just I don't even understand why they do it when there's I mean I I know it's probably faster but I don't understand when there's it's only one block and at either end of the block there are crossing guards and stop sign SL stop light so it's and I don't there may be no solution but it's just something I think we should think about cuz I've been surprised in now the you know 15 or whatever years that I've been living over there and driving that that somebody hasn't been at least injured or or two cars running into each other where suddenly somebody Slams on their break because a parent or child runs out and then you stop and the person behind you just started because they just came through a stop sign and you know is there is that is a controlled intersection isn't there isn't there a stop sign on Wildwood yeah yes it's more about not cars coming out of there it's about people it's about people but the I mean the issue is the more you make it visible as a crossing the more people choose to cross there yeah you know what I mean kind of like one of those C 22 yeah I don't I don't know the answer but I good to run something to yeah think about but I think the other ones about that I mean you know I agree concrete is always good I also think we talked about up there at the thing about Bowmont what we're going to do with that that's I think a place that I've seen lots of I think that area up there very similar to Cumberland because holy family's there but because St Monica and and Richards are both

there at certain times of the day all around there is just well yes that's a whole another thing I mean really it's yeah in the morning it's precarious so I think any of those so you're good with potentially leaving off I mean not I don't want to say leading off but the maror ones I hear what you're saying if we're thinking about some other projects happening on that road then maybe we should wait and I I agree with what Jacob said about the families that came here when we didn't do the sidewalk they did talk about how the fact that that light that it didn't work and yeah just that big said for knowledge um the sign in question is at clody and so that is where there's a sidewalk on both sides oh there okay yeah but they just felt like it would help speed I feel like they said I don't know well we lowered the speed for so that was and we and we have a radar sign permanently I think the per permanent radar sign um coming south South y for sure I don't think I could add much value well you obviously could but you concur essentially okay is there anyone from the audience who'd like to speak to any of these items all right it sounds to me like we have essentially consensus that if we were to prioritize the two that would have the lowest priority would be six and seven okay yeah I because the that's not consensus on my part that number one number one is absolutely the lowest it's a sign okay it's blinking lights and all the other ones are are are protective concrete well we have we have consensus on four we have consensus on almost all if why you get consens on the two the two or three things that could be removed I think it's the probably way you go about well that's what we're trying to do that's what and the two the two that three of us I think or four of us are okay with removing our six and seven which which of those two would you

rather see replaced um I think it's I I think marbor and Hampton is probably the higher impact area so oh to to removed then would be seven so so one one and seven are my two lowest if I could maybe give a little bit more input between the maror Hampton maror Chateau we do have mmsd either Green Solutions or competitive funding that we might be able to do porous PA slash bump outs with these types of projects that would be Standalone that we can have competitive funding for and still do like six and seven but then Lake drve would be hard to find funding to split that 8020 so I'm just throwing that out as far as if we're wanted be more fiscally with that lens of how we can optimize different grants or opportunities there very well could be competitive funding and grant opportunities for the maror ones when it makes sense that we can treat storm water do bump outs with six and seven when the time's appropriate but if we did want to do anything with number one I think that would be more on the village to pay for whatever that means if it's the flashy lights updated technology where at least there would be 8020 split with this one so you're saying if we put it off we would have to come back and pay for it later with number one with number one yeah I don't know how we would get any type of subsidy with grants with maintenance stuff versus updating or modernizing with number one so just making sure that you you know that we're if we want to optimize grants and and money it would make sense to keep number one and then go after other grants with six and seven for six and seven okay so I think everybody ages with two 3 four and five

correct okay um everyone agrees that yeah seven should be the least priority I think so it doesn't feel as trafficky so it's really just one and six so let's let's I I guess we'll have to put it to a vote then um I think I'm losing you might be but let's just by a show of hands who would like to see option one in the priority list okay oh okay and who would prefer to see option seven in the priority list yeah you feel better I lose all the time so we're at okay um keeping in mind that marbor will I mean Maro is on the to-do list in the not too far future yeah we have imperfect information right right you have enough to I do I I would just suggest um that we make an attempt to put in new bulbs or something you know to oh minimize that yes and obviously if it's a quick fix a quick and easy fix move on to number seven absolutely we'll do good yeah okay yep we're good all right moving on um to our last item on the agenda um which is the discussion of the clo Park pickle ball courts so just for my own information you make a formal that's going oh yeah oh can I yes do we need a could someone make the motion for number four you need a motion we do need a motion y well do we need a motion uh I'd recommend to the village board that the five safe school zone project areas as described within the memo and referenced exhibits um be moved to the village

board option 2 3 4 5 and option one if it needs the work um with the option to Pivot to option six um if it's option seven if it's a quick fix uh can I have a second second okay all those in favor hi I we opposed okay all right so oh I'm sorry I was wrong so we want option six want option six not option seven Mar Hampton okay make sure that was clear my mistake should have just gone with the who's being voted off the island those two um okay so just show off hands who is residents of Whitefish Bay here just show off hands okay thank you very much um all right our next um item is the discussion recommendation on the clody park pickle ball court um just for a warning couple things first of all we have a hard end time which I don't think we're going to hit but just so you know when we get to that hard end time I'm going to say we're ending and it's not because I don't want to hear from you it's because we have a hard end time um second thing is it is fairly unlikely based on feedback that we've gotten and you know just our own information that we will have a final decision made on this as of tonight so just want to put those two things out here right now and we obviously want to hear feedback from everyone Matt could you take it away yeah thank you so this is a great conversation starter I'll call it so for background that obviously a lot of the members of the committee were even here with the development of the comprehensive outdoor recreation plan and I think that the committee and the village board have done a phenomenal job over the last few years really

knocking it out as far as tasks upgrades modernizing our Park infrastructure Through The Years within that comprehensive outdoor plan um the existing tennis courts that had been quasa converted over to pickle ball as well to be multi-functional is on the list within 2025 there is a recommendation that has a dollar amount of $50,000 to probably at that time do simple resurfacing restriping and have a discussion as far as what that would look like so given um my homework that I did in 2024 I met with two separate contractors that looked at the condition of those courts and made a strong recommendation that they're beyond the expected useful life and if you wanted to go ahead and let's just say power wash them restripe them paint them crack seal what have you that were going to be on an annual maintenance task and it would behoove us for the longstanding uh you know courts in general um opinion that it's going to have to be pulverized resurfaced painted striped and done appropriately so after hearing that from a two two different contractors I came to the conclusion that this is going to be Beyond just a striping recommendation uh and painting that we should evaluate the actual asphalt condition and what we can do for a longstanding Improvement if we're going to do it so with that I consulted out with a landscape architect that has done courts either restoration or new courts to start to look at different conceptual um layouts given our existing footprint so there's two different options that I put together within this memo that is good for discussions and of course with resident feedback I think we learned a lot through this process already uh which I do appreciate all the residents reaching

out to me personally offering letters the letters were shared with the public works committee from the residents within the area so I do appreciate that uh there was that feedback loop to uh make sure we hear from every stakeholder both players of tennis pickle ball as much as the how much this impacts being adjacent to a park so going back to the two different options this was more based on constructibility lens than anything else and I know that there's more than just constructibility when we're talking about a Parks amenity especially in a in a more dense residential part of our neighborhoods so the first one is if we wanted to do it and optimize the courts for exclusive pickle ball uh in order to do so based on uh I call it design standards there would need to be that bump out to the south in order to accommodate the dimensional needs of pick and it doesn't matter Four Courts versus two courts the north south or east west you don't have the appropriate dimensions for what pickle ball is so there's a conceptual overway that from from a constructability you need 15 additional feet in order to have actual PL like the pickle ball course there are playable but they're not up to the design standard that anyone would feel comfortable stamping from a landscape architect so that's what you see on the screen is that's if you did brand new courts and designed it to those standards that's what you need from a footprint like I say north south east west so with that uh we ran some PR minary design numbers of what the constructability would be for that concept and the base bid is 289,000 allowance for noise curtains to reduce the deciel level of pickle ball

as well as design oversight of 12,000 so that's we're running about $350,000 for concept number one when you add all that together um for option A I'll call it so we have a total budget remaining within our previous Parks borrow of about $300,000 as a reference that we could choose either for this or other maybe priorities that need to be discussed in the future so then after getting that big number back I asked the landscape architect okay what if we do not go 15 ft to the South and it seemed like it was playable conditions as it was previously in its current state so you can see on the screen what it looks like as of right now where it's adaptive to the existing tennis courts with an overlay of pickle ball and the pickle ball would not really be what it should be as far as there's only four feet from the edge of the serving line to the edge of asphalt on the the ends and typically you need eight to 10 feet in order to have that more meet that design standard but people they don't seem to be complaining when I'm out there seems to work so this option uh if we did it this way with pulverizing resurfacing striping keeping the existing footprint is less expensive so the base cost is $170,000 plus the 48,000 for the noise curtains 12,000 for design so you're at a total estimated preliminary cost of $230,000 for the secondary option to I'd say update modernize and refresh those courts with new asphalt surface so with that I think this is again just a pick starter based on that this is on our comprehensive outdoor plan I wanted the feedback from the committee the

community in general terms if this is going to be an area of focus obviously there's High interest with this topic in general terms of pickle ball so with that um just looking for direction I would say for Village staff to see if this is going to be one of these priorities or what we would like to do for next steps can I ask if we could maybe consider an option C which would be a four pickle ball courts but exclusively pickle ball and because I do think that having a tennis court there it functionally hasn't been a tennis court in several years uh and by having the option of tennis there I think people show up and think oh I'll get to play tennis and that creates some tension and considering we have as I count 18 other tennis courts in the village I think having an exclusive pickle ball court with possibly a smaller uh four Court footprint uh might serve the community better than trying to hybridize it just do one of them well and give pickle Ballers a place to be that's definitely an option and it obviously reduces the cost of those Center Nets from being needed from anchored and footings and Nets so not that it'd be a dramatic cost savings but it it definitely could be a consideration so your footprint again from pickle ball I would say is doesn't meet those requirements but if that's not really an issue by either the players or the committee it's still you can work within that footprint I just haven't seen someone play tennis there in Forever um and I do sh we will have an option I I promise you we will have lots of option for public comment but I do hear I do hear a lot of tension where people are like I show up I want to play tennis and then there's all these Pickers you're not so I just think and if not here

where right I think pickle ball has grown enough as a sport um they have proven that they will utilize The Village amenities uh if we provide them if not clody Park where should we have pickle ball and I think it's pretty well established here I think it's better just to have it be exclusively one or other well and one of the questions I had when I was reading some of this and then doing some research about the noise and the distance from things is what if we left it we didn't add make it six but we did something where it was four or two or whatever but where in the one option you had talked about um moving it 15 feet to the South bringing that down what if we did that and then cut off 15t at the top leaving it basically the same size just scooting it further away from The Residence at that end I mean I don't you know if we're going to pulverize it anyway I mean I don't know what the cost of that would be I I don't know but and I don't know that that would even fix the noise problem but well you're thinking I mean I had one of those lightning bolt thoughts on my way here actually here we go well mentioned it you already but it was we're not are we married to that spot in CL I mean only be better off over close I wondered about that too the only thing I wondered about then is it ties into the Fourth of July celebration that happens there and like I don't know you know I don't know because that's what I wonder too if we're going to tear it up because if it's just a resurface it like can we move it in some way that would allow for more plantings on the End plus you know when I did some of that that article that I had sent to you all that I was looking at they were talking about how even if you just get if you can get 400 more feet from that the residence right which it changes the deciel to where

then it sounds more like ten you know it's the tennis level situation um that's why I was thinking Bluff well and right and because there isn't anybody over there the birds wouldn't here maybe mean it gets used on Fourth of July but beyond that it's green space and those sound barriers from what I research look like they dropped the noise the decel levels you know up to 35 DB which is like to me those not yeah I agree I think whatever we do I I think those are going to be required too yeah when you po r that surface there there's some is there concrete underneath there yeah there's there's base material so you most likely have at least inch AAR or clear Stone underneath but when you do it nowadays you probably have a 3-inch base layer then you build it up with inch and a quarter not that to the structure of like you're building a road but that's your stability over time so we're talking about pulverizing just that surface of probably an inch inch and a quarter or so and then doing fresh asphalt with the anticipation that your base course is still good so moving the whole thing would be it would be more expensive absolutely but you know partly if it solves some problems yeah the other thing that I thought of is that it also you know maybe spreads the parking out a little bit you know I know the other parking lot gets pretty well used as well but you know it's not as much parking right there by the playground just a thought I mean literally have not even walked it or anything just thought about it on the way over how effective are these sound curtains anybody know that's what ja when I when I was researching them today they said up to 35 DB so up to 35 DB might mean you know maybe in the 20s normally and then in perfect conditions it's 35 but uh significant oh okay well and I also was wondering about if we're going to resurface can you know they were talking about some of those

different surfaces that you can use that make the ball I mean some of the players don't like it as much but if it's already not quite up to par anyway um well it's in a residential neighborhood right well absolutely but I mean I'm just saying like so I don't know if that if we're going to resurface it how much more expensive some of those different services are and like requiring people that play there to use the different kinds of rackets and um I mean because it is in a residential I mean it just is what it is yeah we can look into that as well well and I also think playing at 6:00 AM is not acceptable no I mean I've called the police at the non-emergency on people that are snowblowing right outside my window at 2 am you can't play pickle ball at 6: am in a neighborhood I just go to py tennis center for that I mean that's just that's not okay and I think if that is if we have to have people sitting there the police I mean I can't imagine there's a whole lot going on at Whitefish Bay thank God it's why we lived here at 6:00 a.m. so you know they could certainly drive through there regularly and they need to start giving them tickets if they're there because I just think that's not okay it may be a lot well or a lot yeah but I just don't think 6 am I don't think they should be playing T at 6 a but I'm sure pickle ball is much louder at 600 a.m. when it's really quiet anyway you add then it probably sounds like a 100 deciel if it's only 70 yeah Kevin before I open it up um I I remain interested in in knowing if there are if there's a a a lower level of um concrete uh remediation um where we're not pulverizing we somehow just resurfacing and getting into a maintenance mode um I

I I think that that we as a committee we should at least know that number so that we have a informed Choice um for you know this began as kind of a no-brainer $50,000 project and it's morphed into a you know quintupling octupling of that number um which for everybody here um makes us pause because we do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars to to spend um and and when we do we need to have a a menu of priorities right and decide where do things uh come out and you know we need to get to that point and I know that there's going to be a fiveyear CIP although is that GNA have any park stuff in okay so you know we're getting closer to a list of priorities and that should be in the next two three months um and so this can be on it in some way but then we have a limited amount of you know borrowed money that we can uh then prioritize things with and then this committee takes another look at where did that money get spent and does it get spent here or does it get spent uh at um you know the K Hills playground or other places so that's that's really my take on it mainly because the number was so startlingly large when we thought it was going to be kind of a minor deal deal and and for that uh you know for that reference in 2020 or 2021 I guess um the khill needed to be resurfaced and I I the number that sticks out of my head was 120,000 for the entire six courts um which that seems to be a reasonable number um and this is a this is probably a fourth the size and now double the cost which I don't know if that's

inflation or if that's just the method with which we are um approaching the you know maintenance versus total Destruction and and doing it over again that's where I you know we I hate to spoil the fun but money is something that we need to examine Matt can you talk a little bit more about the contractor's recommendations and why they weren't advising the maintenance moment yeah I think they were conscientious that we're going to be back at square one because of the crack size and also there's the joint in the middle now if you did option b that joint won't play a a part because it was such a large joint that has separated over time that you cannot do any type of armor crack seal because of the width of that one so that might change that schematic a little bit if we stick with option b but other cracks they still felt that it's going to be an annual maintenance thing we'd have to be okay with that contractor coming year after year to do crack sealing painting striping so well then it becomes a math problem I did not get a cost based on those because we were looking at it through a different lens with can we fit those pickle ball courts and again dimensionally this doesn't make sense when you talk to any type of designer but again if that's more of the appetite of the village to have those Dimensions work for the needs then I don't think that there's anything legally wrong with doing something like that just not typical design so if we go with option b I could definitely get a number and just to be clear it would be an annual maintenance item for both quot and Cahill that we're going to have to keep on maintaining before it's at the end of its true expected use for life or just putting good money after bad that it would be good numbers to have though just yeah if it's not too hard to absolutely no we can definitely do that in our menu of what we're

thinking about absolutely how specialized is the crack treatment and sealing process is that something that we can send a guy out out to get trained on and we can start to do that inhouse like we grinding in house no cuz this isn't just like your your roadway tar type of crack ceilings that this is more specialized because it's a playable surface from trips and any type of hazards that this is more specialized with the product and training that like or mson brothers uh specialize in so that's something that we would have that it s that's fair anything else before I open it up okay I just oh go ahead uh just very Loosely I know we were talking about it a little bit yesterday but that at some point we are going to have to re-evaluate the parking here um and you know I think I don't know if that's a conversation for today uh or some other time but um just whether or not we want to maintain the parking where it is if we want to have more parking if we want to move it all to the street park or parking on the street and reclaim that space um I mean there are options but it's just at some point this committee will I think should be addressing that parking uh the concerns of villagers and this committee alike that that parking how that parking is designed is both like not very efficient and it's also a little dangerous I think are well founded is has that been reevaluated now that we have a really nice fence along the playground it's certainly better I mean just anecdotally when I go there I mean I worry a lot less about munchkins like running into traffic but um is it mostly always I haven't been you know using that playground often since my children are considerably older um do you find that it's usually pretty full when you go the parking lot yeah yeah it's usually prettyful okay yeah that what you see there is

probably about average there's usually one or two spots open and what about the other parking lot well that depends on the time of day um if it's a nice day that fills up really fast y if it's cold you know there usually only one or two cars parked there I would say that I'm always surprised at how many people are using clody which is fantastic yeah Ian there there's just been times I've been there you know a Tuesday at 10: in the morning and I I'll count 30 people and it's just I'm like where are the why are these people here like what are they doing they're doing what I'm doing they are not however there at 10 o'clock at night like I was flooding the ice rink last night thank you by the way I was I was the only person there a well one other personated to your but yeah um okay so we are going to open up for public comment and so what I would ask is when you come the protocol is you state your name and address for the record um and just being mindful of all of the people who are here if you have heard something that you're like ditto you can just come up and say ditto rather than just you know repeat the entire thing all over again um obviously if you have something new to add um please feel free to do so if you find that you think of something else that you'd like to add to your initial comments please wait until everybody's had their first crack at the microphone and then you're certainly welcome to come on up again also if you have checks they could be payable if you have like 300,000 rolling around that you know you can just write that right out to and she'd make sure it gets in the right hands get into that into the clody uh playground fund or the Poli Park fund um okay so that being said you can also we have a second Podium there so if you'd like to kind of use that as the on Deck Podium um first Podium this is our come on up speak your name into the microphone for the record

pleas hi my name is Steve kappus I live at 596 North at where I'm sorry 5960 North Lake Drive okay there it says that so that the housekeeping method you need to change your address for the park oh last we had ice full we had a truck full of ice trying to deliver at my house until the neighbor said no I think you mean it's over oh funny oh so I'd like to thank Mr Collins for supplying me the notice of this and the proposed changes he wasn't good enough to meet with me and I delici additionally I like to thank the committee for allowing me to speak for some time now I've wondered how to proceed with this problem and this gives me an opportunity to speak to it I've lived next to the park for 40 years when I moved there there were two tennis courts there was a there was a playground playground's been redone a couple times I think you'll can find some bricks in there with my kids names on them you can find two out of three we can't find the third one somewhere but for the most part the tennis courts and the and the playground have not been disruptive to me or my family occasionally there's some y's out there who are swearing and yelling and this and that but for the most part it's been perfectly fine the tenis court had sign placards with rules signs said and I forget the exact verbage but basically if you've been there for an hour and some is waiting you have to let them play those signs are completely gone Signs Now say have are described as pickle ball etiquette so to your point nobody's played tennis here because they've been kind of run out of Dodge it's not

possible to go play tennis there there's too many people there that will not allow you to play and I don't know when this change came I don't know if that was done with by this committee to make this these pickle ball courts if it was I'd like to see the minutes of those meetings um I'd also like to know if the those temporary pickle ball nets were paid for by the village or by the people playing pick they were paid for by the village they were yeah I couldn't tell you it was probably two years ago three yeah because I I guess I was not informed about that meeting as to changing this into a pickle ball worse so a large number of people will show up really early in the morning maybe not always 6:00 am. but by 7 7:30 places pack and it goes on till 9:30 10 o'clock at night constant and um the way I and I know that I know for a fact that there's people play there that are not from Whitefish Bay because Other M municipalities have restricted it so much that they've come to our place to play and it's on my dime way I look at it my taxes and my quality of life um there is no even in the winter you'll people will play they'll be shoveling snow and playing and and the noise is just I describe it like having pots and pans out there with a metal Ladle and they hitting it constant and if you have Four Courts it's like four sets so I guess I would like to know show hands how many people want 13 ft or steps from their property line people beating on pots and pans from 7 o'clock till 10 o'clock at night after a while it gets

to be pretty obnoxious my wife had a friend over that they went out in the backyard to have a conversation they couldn't have it you couldn't hold this meeting in our backyard it' be just too loud um my neighbors are not able to be here tonight have uh written letters and I think you've gotten those letters with some of the same thing Dr Wagner is you know she works a lot of late night time work because she's a pediatric surgeon and six o'clock in the morning on the weekend she gets woken up by pickle ball players it's not acceptable least in my view this is not just my problem it's not Dr Wagner's problem it's also Nationwide you can you can Google this and there's a million articles on this about the noise and how it's disruptive and etc etc and there's a lot of articles about what you can do to mitigate this some of those things you kind of talked about a little bit and some of the recommendations are you know positioning the courts um the construction material the cour I think he spoke to the type of walls the type of rackets noise failures all these things have been talked about there's even consulting firms out there that will come in and tell you how to make your pickle ball quartz less obnoxious but the primary recommendation all these things and I I'm going to repeat that the primary recommendation is don't build them within 500 feet of a residential property because it's it's going to be loud no matter what you do no matter which kind of noise barriers and Etc that you have so I would like to make a counter proposal if the bu I would like to see these tennis carts again and I would like to see if the village wants to get in the

pickle ball business they should move these courts someplace that's 500 feet away from residential areas there have been multiple lawsuits around the country with people have suing because of their property value going down because of the noise so these are all things that I think you need to consider when do this it's not just as easy as oh there it is we can just restripe it and put a pickle ball PS or even worst six and imagine six Poots and pans somebody beaten on them just not acceptable so my proposal is that you put the pickle ball where it's somewhere in the village 500 feet away from residential areas I don't know where that is I get that would be more your job I don't know if kahill some of the ones at kahill are that far away I don't know if there's places over by um by the Little League Park or on the bluff or wherever but it's just not right to have one or two residents take the brunt of this um constantly from 7 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night so that's my proposal thank you thank you thank you my name is Paul Smith and I live at 4785 North Lake Drive and I've kind of been the Le leaon if you will with a village I came before the committee uh three years ago um to get uh the Court's line and uh the courts uh we did find a contractor and we were able to get him done for I think $1,200 where the village quote was like $5,000 uh the village did pay for the Nets and the total cost of the Nets was about $700

um and I would like to thank the village for allowing pick a ball to be played in the community um it has been very successful and we've had a lot of people there there's no question about that and I certainly understand that uh Dr has legitimate concerns as to the noise that pickle ball creates um and I do think that the uh proposal has significant monies allocated to help remedy that noise um as far as early play uh the village the prior Village manager had called me about the early play and asked me to stop it and I said uh that there is a group of people that uh play on a regular basis but there're people coming in and out I don't control the access to the park I did put up signs behind each Court saying no pick a ball before 8:00 uh and uh I they weren't permanent signs but they did stay up for several months and I had them replaced there is no Village ordinance that prevents people from playing pickle ball I had encouraged the village manager to put an ordinance to restrict the hours of pickle ball play and I certainly support that uh there is a sign and the says in as a courtesy to our neighbors please do not play before 8 o'clock I think that's essentially what it says um the open play that people play does not start until uh after 8 o'clock um so I don't know I I know a lot of the pick ball players we have hundreds of people that play there I personally don't know anyone that plays uh before 8:00 now I'm sure there are people that play before

8:00 and if I live there I certainly wouldn't want that um but pickle ball has been important to our community um it's been uh very good for uh recreational activity it's been very good for social activity and we have people of all ages and all abilities uh we welcome anybody to play uh people regardless of what their ability uh can play and with our open Play everybody gets the same amount of time time to play we don't some places you let people if you win you get to stay in longer we don't do that people rotate in and out everybody gets Fair now regarding whether it's four or six courts or whatever um uh you know a lot of people would like six courts some people would like Four Courts I believe that the man in white first Bay is great enough to support six courts but I think putting six courts in this would be a greater stress on the park on the parking and on the neighborhood I personally don't support that however I would encourage the village to try to get the school board to allow uh at least one Court be lined at Cahill the homes at Cahill are much further back no they're not they're much CL oh sorry keep going by the way those are owned by The Village so it's I'm well aware that they're owned by the village and I'm well aware that the village pays a substantial cost there and I'm also was on the village board for six years and I know that the village has done a lot for athletics in Whitefish Bay when I was on the board we bought the Armory and most of that land was donated to the village for their fields uh the village has also donated most of K Hill for a large

baseball field um so they're uh the village has done a lot for the school district and I would think the school district could at least have one Court there uh for that play so um I think that some reasonable regulation regarding the hours is certainly reasonable and I strongly support that I think the plan calls for significant costs related to the remediation of the noise and I think the the neighbors certainly deserve that and I think if you look at the long range plan as far as the cost goes the plan was to spend some money in 2025 to resurface it but then in 2027 it had money in there to do a complete reconstruction and I brought that to uh the at that time the village manager's attention saying this makes no sense at all uh putting $50,000 in there would be a waste of money just do the resurface and uh I don't I was an accountant uh I don't remember the exact number but I know the number to redo the kahill tennis courts was a lot I think it was over 300 $400,000 The Village paid $110,000 to remedy to the problems when the village board approved putting uh hockey in there that was $110,000 amount that was not a complete reconstruction so thank you for your consideration thank you um ter ke or correct me if I'm wrong you need to maintain Seven Courts for competitive plays competive play those are the high school fields or courts wello my name is Mel Johnson I am a wife bbay resident I live at 405 East Montclair which is not far from Flo I wrote a letter I I don't

know if you I know you received other letters I have a letter I can submit more than welcome to share with us thank you that total five thank you um let me address if I could each of the there's really kind of two separate issues one is the implication of Dr caps' remarks is basically that triple ball ought to be banned from clot and then if that's not going to happen then the second question is plan a or plan b or maybe one of the other plans proposed in the discussion um as far far as the problems with noise which cause some people to think that there shouldn't be pickle ball and clot while I think the concerns are sincere I would not say that they come close to justifying eliminating pickle ball from Floy Park in the first place you have to begin with recognizing that it's a public park and the whole purpose of public parks is to provide uh recreational use for the public and when it comes to pickle ball clo definitely does that it's a valuable resource for public recreational use through pickle ball uh I also play in the morning group commonly uh that is there many mornings um I've got other stuff going on so I don't come every morning but I play commonly and we have a website there's 142 people on the website now there's not 142 people are playing in the morning but it shows the width of the interest in pickle ball uh and we play there year around during the warm weather months there's people there every morning unless it's raining and uh there's often 20 people or more playing so it's used uh quite a bit and people

come and go some people come a little earlier leave earlier come later stay later um but also we play in the winter has as has been pointed out and we shovel the courts ourselves um and assuming it's above 20° and there's not snow standing on the courts there's often you know 8 to 12 people out there trying to play in the winter so it provides a great deal of uh recreational use which is the fundamental purpose of a public park uh also there are other people I I know just cuz I don't normally play there other than in the morning but sometimes I walk past with my dog and I see in the afternoons in the warm weather at least it's common that people are playing in the afternoon as well and as far as the timing goes I can't say I go over there every morning at 7: am. to see what the situation is but I frankly don't believe that it's constantly 700 am. to 10 p.m. um our group does not get rolling until eight or later um I I just am aware of anybody coming significantly earlier than that and as far as the 10 pm. allegation there's no lights over those courts on once the sun goes down it'd be difficult or impossible to effectively place so I don't think it's accurate to say that they're commonly used from 7: am. to 10 p.m. um and it's also important to note that clody is the only pickle ball courts outdoor pickle ball courts available to the public in Whitefish Bay if there's no pickle ball at clody there's no pickle ball at least outdoor pickle ball available to the public in the village now then moving on to the next question plan a or Plan B um we've talked about what each plan

encompasses I would recommend uh Plan B now there are friends of mine who play pickle ball I would love to have six courts and I would too on the other hand I think balance trying to balance all these considerations would argue in favor of sticking with the four Court design first of all two extra courts would be would be nice but they're not necessary also it's worthwhile to save the village $120,000 um and it's also worthwhile to maintain courts there for tennis players I'm a tennis player also um and I think while maybe tennis players feel a little awkward coming over to play tennis and monopolizing some space which could be used by more people for pickle ball you know and there's that sort of emotional thing I'm not aware of any tennis players ever getting chased off those courts by pickle ball players and I think it's good to maintain the availability of tennis courts which plan B does so I would say that this that plan B is the best balance of all the considerations for the taxpayers for the Neighbors for the pickle ball players and for the uh tennis players and so I would suggest that that's the wisest for us you have any questions I'd be happy to address them but otherwise thank you thank you hello uh Dave B 5931 North Lake Drive um and I I agree with a fair amount of what the first Speaker had to say uh it is a challenge parking traffic both foot traffic cars on the road especially on the west side of Lake Drive early in the day uh those are all certainly

challenges the biggest challenge is still the noise um the noise is I can't say never ending right it does get dark um I would say that the group that shows up at 8:00 they are pretty respectful there are others who show up uh far earlier and there's nothing like waking up at 6:30 on Saturday morning to somebody over there yelling and screaming and that pink back and forth going you know with the pickle ball so that's uh something that I think whether it's an ordinance or however to enforce that that needs to happen if these are going to continue to be pickle ball courts if they could be moved as suggested so much the better it is I had written Mr Buckley a letter about a year and a half ago of how irksome the noise is it's constant it's a quality of life issue um it it hasn't gotten any better certainly over that time period um there was a point brought up too about you don't see any tennis being played over there um there's a reason for that tennis I'm a tennis player I'm not a pickle player um we're not really too welcome over there I've played over there for 25 years it's amount of time that we've lived here um to the point that was made prior that no one gets run off there are attempts to run us off can't you go play elsewhere these are the only pickle ball courts that we have no these are tennis courts too so we still like to take advantage of as tennis courts the other thing that I would bring up about if there are 18 other courts in the area they're not available all the time when schools going on turn tournaments uh camps those kinds of things there's not a ton of availability

so I would certainly prefer for those courts to remain available for tennis and for me I think this is a little bit to way you were talking about hey there's a cost involved here how much is this going to be is it you know we were looking at 50 grand for something then it's you know three four five times at or seven or eight times at depending on what you look at certainly I would hate to see any more pickle ball courts uh put in out there if we are going to coexist pickle and tennis on those same courts if you were going to spend the $50,000 on anything I would say it would be on those curtains or some kind of sound barriers to try to shut this down would I prefer that it just became tennis courts again that would be great yes um but I am respectful of uh there are people here who to the extent possible respect the neighbors but the sound of that there's maybe there are things that you can do about it from the paddles or the courts or the balls to soften the noise I don't see that happening among hundreds of people who are showing up to play with you know some kind of equipment that deadens the noise so please at a minimum do something that sends the noise up or deadens it absorbs it that's by far for me the worst thing going on out there traffic's a problem too I don't want to minimize that but the sound is just brutal and I to being in your backyard as you talk about I'm across the street and it's still horrible when I'm sitting on the porch even if I'm sitting out back it's still annoying so if I were 20 fet away or whatever you guys are in the backyard untenable I would say so thank you thank

you hello my name is Amy westrup and I live at 2011 West Devon um I agree with uh many of the things that have been said here already what I wanted to tell you um is how I started to play pickle ball because during covid my daughter who went to White Fish Bay High said Mom I we're trapped in the house let's go do something together which was shocking in and of itself and we went and played pickle ball and we walked up to clody and I said how did you learn how to play Pickleball I grew up playing tennis I still play tennis all the time and she said well Mom we learned pickleball in school so this is a lifetime sport that is being taught in our schools and yet we're saying you know what is there anything we can do to get rid of the one place these kids who've learned pickleball in schools in our schools can play I connected with my daughter on those courts I connected with all of these people and about a hundred more on those courts usually after 8:30 in the morning I might add and never after about 2: in the afternoon um I won't discuss some of those things that were brought up but I want you to understand that this is a growing sport this is a sport but it was based and developed by a family who wanted something to do with their children it was developed and started there was a big group up in Port Washington that developed this Sport and it brought families together anyone of any physical ability age it it doesn't matter who you are can play Pickleball I understand it's loud I understand the the ramifications of the parking I live

live by the Little League field so if any of you want to come up during the summer let me tell you I could come here and yell and scream about the parking in front of my house on the corner of Devon and liell if I set up a lemonade stand I'd pay off all your mortgages if I sold tequila I'd be a millionaire do it I live up by the Little League field it is loud it is crowded but what it does is it brings joy to people and joy to families I am completely in support of the the B option I respect the fact that it has to be loud I get it your dogs are probably not enjoying the plastic balls that get thrown in the dogs may love it I don't know maybe it's healing um so put up the sound barriers do you know what we have to I don't want to spend a ton of money on this but please don't poo poo it as something like oh it's this cheesy Sport and everyone should just play tennis it's not my nephew is a professional pickle ball player he travels the world he was at the Milwaukee open it has literally changed his life this is not a passing fad this isn't going to go away and shutting down Four Courts isn't going to make it go away we are telling our kids this is a great lifetime sport we're going to teach it to you in middle school and all through high school but you just have to you can only play it in a gym and then and then the other argument I hear is well just go join The JCC or go join you know a a a place out in Brookfield to play no because you know what those courts are on my dime too I'm a tax player payer I've lived here for 25 years you know I I'm respectful of the parking so I walk or I park you know a couple blocks away it this is all doable I I think that the sound barriers definitely need to go up but please

don't forget that it's not just a bunch of retirees out there crack of the egg in the morning it's a lot of kids it's a beautiful cross-section of our village and yes people from outside our village I don't think there's any rule that people can't come and use our Parks they're public parks so that's all I have to say thank you thank you my name is Jack Orchard I live at 622 East Carlile in White Fish I've been a resident for 43 years um none of the our group plays before 8:00 the sign out there says no pickle ball before 8 o00 uh simple solution is to lock the gates and when the police or the Public Works people come to open the the restrooms in the park they unlock at 8 8:00 then it'll eliminate the 6:00 perception that people are out out there playing and making noise the park closes at 9: and I guarantee you the cops arrested my son for being in the park with his girlfriend while he was at the Air Force Academy and I had to defend him in court but anyway the cops know it so after nine o'clock I really don't think it's an issue so anyway and I feel bad for Dr CIS he lives here he lives here rightly line start of your house we we can probably just figure that out ourselves why don't you continue with the microphone please and there's another homeowner over here so two adjacent

homeowners okay and I understand it doesn't gey pleas let's continue I'm good with that um before you go erecting the sound barrier they tried that over at Shorewood at the M forgot what the school was called over there pardon at water park or at Water School okay because of the same problem the adjacent neighbors complain theyve spent $8,000 put up the barrier guess what after one maybe two years it's taken down never gone back up again they planted some trees to try to do it but those barriers are ineffective and expensive do what you do I mean do your due diligence to find out about that but um I think I don't know I from Kevin I think I heard a third plan C maybe to not do anything those cords are perfectly adequate for pickle ball right now I know there's concern that because we shovel and uh remove the snow that we're we're doing damage 5 years we've been doing it five years we've going we go over there immediately when the snow comes down before it forms ice which could create problems underneath we get it off and we play when it's 7 degrees there may be only two of us I go there almost every day unless I'm playing racketball and most of us are in our 70s and 80s in our group a couple in their 60s but they 80s 80s we're not going to be around long okay okay so this problem is going to resolve itself problem could resolve well M Dr can we make a new rule of like no one under 60 can join no no with the our group is a retired group that play from 8 30 roughly in the summer later in the

winter till noon but and we're the problem we are the only large group that are there that you have to stand and wait to play nobody else has that problem later in the day day uh to my awareness and I'm I live right around the corner I walk through there all the time anyway um my point is I used to be a handball player but they're all my age roller and they're dead I had to give up handball so then I took up a racket ball guess what it's doing the same thing pickle ball May well follow that track who knows I mean these things turn out to be fads by the way it didn't start in Fort Washington it started in the state of Washington and it's now the official sport of the state of Washington because a couple of families on a or over Fourth of July or something wanted to get their kids involved and they had a bad Mitten set up and the kids couldn't hit the bad Mitten uh shuttlecock over so they lowered it down got some pingpong paddles got a whiffle ball and used the dimensions of a um yeah had mitt Court yeah yeah yeah and the reason it's called pickle ball is because the whiffle ball belonged to their dog named pickles yeah so that's how it started anyway but it's gone and as somebody mentioned uh Co is what Drew us out there there was nobody playing out there when the village first lined just can I just remind you we have a we do have a hard stop so if there thank you very much okay thank you I have to say living on Lake Drive you've got traffic you got motorcycles you've got cops you got everything making noise constantly all throughout the day pickle ball small item I think thank you I like fun facts thanks Jack uh my name is maen hamton I live at

2100 East glandel Avenue in White Fish Bay I've been there about 15 years lived in North Shore grw up in Shorewood my whole life so I discovered pickleball two years ago I'm one of the younger ones that play there and um they became a family to me and it's extremely fun my kids play it now and um most importantly eliminating pickle ball cour there would be I think the worst decision you guys could ever make this is a community thing and most importantly if we are thinking forward I'll make this short six is the way to do it because this is a growing sport it's going to continue to grow I know 20 year olds 30-y olds are playing I play competitively now throughout the city I play all over Premiere Brookfield um White Fish Bay I play in the mornings the only reason I play at White Fish Bay is because I feel like I'm going to high school I go there see the same people we talk we know each other's families but competitively I play elsewhere so to eliminate here in White Fish Bay I think would be devastating to all the retirees in the community and um and and bottom line is I highly recommend you guys do not do that I do recommend the six quarts but obviously what is pushing for the FL but Forward Thinking six the way to go thank you thank you I just want to interject that this meeting was not about eliminating pickle ball um we're we're relatively um uh confident that pickle ball is going to be around for you know decades we we're we've acknowledged the fact that that clody uh court gets used a ton this meeting was not to debate the merits of pickle ball I think everybody here and every time we have a meeting about pick a ball lots of people show up because they like it so much we get it like that that you don't need to make that point at all um it's really a meaning about the surface um and I think we've we've

at least learned a few things from um neighbors that live around there that we need to do something about mitigating sound but I just wanted to interject that because there's been a few comments about like how dare you think about removing pickle ball and like that's not on the agenda so very true like sh okay we have someone at the podium please go ahead yes sorry my name is Mike fredman I live at 6256 North Bay Ridge Avenue and before I get started I'd really like to compliment everybody here as far as the time and effort you put into this as far as the knowledge and the homework you did and most of that was all totally accurate and very informative uh what I'd like to say is I'm a pickle ball player and not a great pickle ball player but I play pickle ball and I played in numerous places in Wisconsin I played several places outside Wisconsin as far as whether it's in Phoenix or Philadelphia or north for Virginia and to be realistically these courts that we have in White Fish Bay are the absolute worst our you go to other communities and they have dedicated pickle ball courts that are gorgeous and they're used a lot and highly utilized and from this standpoint not only you have the surface issues as somebody pointed out this space here is really unacceptable it's dangerous because there's only a couple feet there you can trip fall sprin your ankle and so that perspective um if you're really gonna do this you want to do it right and to spend a lot of money and do it wrong makes no sense and we're not living in the 1970s anymore tennis isn't as popular as it used to be where we're going is pickle ball is becoming much more popular so you have to look to the Future not look to the past as far as what worked 20 years ago or 30 years ago

so we have plenty of tennis courts and I think of the proposals U as far as ma said it in other words the right thing to do if you had the money would be to build six great pickle ball courts highly utilized and be something that you'd be proud of and people would play now I understand the economics um the option as far as this basically it's the same we have now and it's in my opinion a waste of money and so if anything I'd go with Jacob's idea as far as if you're looking at the economics and trying to do this right you have the four dedicated pickle ball courts that would be high quality you gain a little bit of space you tighten this up and maybe you can add a couple feet on the end possibly and make it so that they're sort of regulation size and then you'd have something that White Fish Bay would be proud of and would use and the issue is that people commented on this before in other words I go out there play with my wife uh my when my kids come to visit they don't live here I play with my kids I play with my grandkids it's a sport that's growing that would be a valuable asset to the community and would draw more people to the community the noise is an issue everybody realizes that there's some technology that's out there that might alleviate this they've got the paddles now that have proofing on them they they're developing balls that are more like uh whiffle ball not Whiffle balls but foam balls that play almost similarly so in the future the noise issue might go away and there are special soundproof barriers now that are made by pickle ball companies that work much much better than the old sound barriers from even four or five years ago thank you very much uh oh hi I'm Heidi Burmeister and I took this to work today

address please um I am in shorwood formerly White Fish Bay I lived at 5353 North Lake Drive for 11 years do we need current address for the record current address uh 4135 North Bartlett in Shorewood thank you um I do work for the school district of Whitefish Bay and I have my racket because I took it to the middle school today where I am playing pickle ball with sixth graders as the rotation in PE and I love it I play with kids from the elementary school age through some of my pals over there who are in their 80s it is a community Builder it can be um I started playing during the pandemic in Shorewood and I would walk over to the court I play in White Fish Bay I played with Jack when it was about 28° last weekend it is a growing sport when I travel I take this with me I play in California when I visit two of my kids I play in Connecticut when I go there I want to say thank you to White Fish Bay for having facilities with bathrooms and a bubbler it's huge um I try to take care of the quartz when I'm there I pick up plastic I take it home and recycle when I find water bottles I tell people off when they park near the playground I tell them to move their cars we can walk we are athletes we play pickle ball and I want to make sure that the families have places to park with their kids um it is a growing sport I'm not

going to tell you what to do I'm happy to pay when I come to play as a resident for Shorewood if you tell me you have to pay $300 for the summer to pay to play at clody I'm fine with that in shwood we have Punch Cards and people who do not live there have to pay more I'm fine with that um I have volunteered I work with kids with special needs I play ble ball with them in the summer when I have time off I invite the families and the kids to come play whether it's in White Fish Bay or in shwood but I do thank you for the facilities and all I care about is playing and it's a great group of people and I play with sves in shorwood who is a musician a talented kid I play with people from all over the world and I think it's a great thing to open up Milwaukee to have pickle ball and to share it thank you very much my address is 5960 North Lake Drive and the only reason I'm speaking is my husband said nine or 10 no that doesn't happen um I probably am the best person to tell you what's going on next door because I have a small dog and I worry about coyotes I am out all the time on and off so Jack hope you haven't seen me in my pajamas too much in the morning or whatever um I would like to invite all of you and the pickleball players too to come over maybe set up everybody playing and see what it's like for the noise that's what I mean I know Dr Wagner wrote about is there any possibility of locating at Cahill where you're further away from residences I don't know if there is a possibility the people that

are playing are nice people my grandson used to shake balls for you guys um um you know I don't get any pickle balls from you guys I still get tennis balls though thank goodness because my dogs like them but I really I mean I'm you're welcome to come we can set up something on the Patty you won't be able to really talk much when they're playing but I just want you to know what it's really like and across the street I didn't realize you would hear it that much across Lake Drive a friend of mine that lives out of state is is 400 feet from a pickle ball court at at a private club and she said I can still hear it and you know I I miss I I bet you can hear it a block or two away so I'm just I just wanted to bring that up and say if you want to set up a time we'd be happy to do it we'll get the dogs out of there and you could you could hear what it is with everybody playing on the courts and then have some tennis players play and you'll see the difference we have really never had any problems with anybody we haven't called in complaint I'm just not usually like that I did Chase a couple people off who decided it was a great dog park run that had four or five dogs over there cuz my dogs are barking and my neighbor was complaining um but other than that I'm glad to get the tennis balls I got yelled at once because my grandkids were ringing our school bell on our playhouse by some players but that's the only time I've had any confrontation but if you want to set it up you can get it thank you very much all right going once oh my name is Rebecca scar I live at 1013 e Circle um I actually have no dog in this fight I don't play pickle ball I don't live near the only thing I want to say is I happen to have a close family member who's currently suing the neighbor the pickle ball courts next door so this is a real problem the noise is known to be a nuisance they had noise measurements done and it was above I can't it was what above whatever the noise ordinance was in their area so the noise is a significant problem they used to be tennis courts they were fine with that

they turn into pickle ball and they're now locked in a lawsuit so I just I just want to tell you all this because you know I think that's a distinct possibility I think when pickleball courts are are close to residences because it is a a noise issue so out of curiosity was there noise abatement done on those courts they did put up the the screening and it didn't make enough of a difference thank you um and I think they changed the paddles and it wasn't sufficient so and this was a it's a plub so um I I just want to raise that and I would just encourage the The Village I think we should keep pickle ball but I think we should really consider placing it somewhere else I mean it sounds like there's interest in a significant like investment in pickle balls so there must be a location in the village that would be further from residences because it it if you just if you research it it really is a distinctly bothersome noise and I think that's you know been well established so that's all thank you very much my name is k Donovan I live at 4819 North Woodburn Street I do play pickle ball I haven't done drop in at um clody but I have played on the courts and I love them totally understand the sound issue and if I was going to vote on one of those three I'd vote for C but I would love what I would love to see is maybe shwood W Fish Bay get together and somehow could we put some Courts at esterbrook Park where nobody would hear it I mean it just seems like it'd be a great place for the two communities or three communities to join together and build a really nice pickle ball court thank you thank you all right going once going twice all right thank you all very much for your passion and your interest in coming out um this obviously is going to be a repeat conversation with new information

and new options um so keep an eye on Public Works um and residents I think if it comes up we will probably let residents know for sure that is coming up again but keep an eye on our agendas going forward um as we obviously have decisions to make so thank you all very much all right but no action no action on this well I I'd just like to make a couple comments to staff I guess and that is um obviously we've learned that we need some mechanism for can we please keep it down the meeting is continuing yeah can excuse me can we please be quiet where the meeting continues thank you um that uh there's some issue with playing before 88 in the morning and so we need some kind of mechanism whether that's through the police or uh you know right well right now clody warming house has a lock that's automated and so perhaps we can look into something like that yeah so there's that it's automated yeah yeah we put it on a timer so it automatically opens and Clos I was wondering or efficient for staff time so we don't have to be there immediately in the morning and then notwithstanding a magical uh location like for example esbrook where we could put a court um these courts will likely stay where they are in which case an investment in sound curtains is is probably we're g to do that right I mean we're going to do it anyways so perhaps that could be a separate project and in in a way that is um modular so that if if we end up expanding the courts let's say you know another 10 15t that we wouldn't be wasting any sound curtains they come in 8 foot section they do yeah they just tie onto chain or what you know they attach to the like I think you can take them off so you can adjust if we adjust the ports so it seems like we should

probably look into that sooner rather than later Le let's let's not wait you know six months and then say Oh remember this sound curtain issue let's let's do a little RFP and see if we can um you know get these curtains but secondly let's talk to shwood and ask them apparently somebody mentioned that they had sound deadening curtains and what their experience was and if that is accurate and something just find out what they did and what went wrong and what went right and yeah I just want to make sure from my perspective that they actually work with any type of investment so talking to shwood others that have used maybe that design talking to people that aren't inv try to sell you something hear from those types of people get the pitch right from a really has changed in the last few years of what shwood has that's what I was gonna say maybe even parks that aren't here right you know but somebody that's bought it recently you know you could figure that out from one of the vendors and call them or something like that and I mean the places that I've always either played pickle ball or watched pickle ball or whatever for the most part are not so close to houses the only place I can think of is one of the places in Florida there's a really big Park in Naples and the tennis courts and pickle ball courts are in the middle of the park you know so there's other stuff happening around it to probably help mitigate because the houses are fairly close um because it's a small community but I just everywhere else I've ever been they haven't been so close to houses so and there's got to be another municipality whove used these sound curtains oh I'm sure call them up and ask them like does does it work at some of the places I've been that were pickle ball specific they still had those up because they had other things I was in

Austin recently and they were there was they had a big bunch of pickle ball um cords but there was also like put putt golf and you know like a bar area it was a whole Recreation Area and I couldn't hear I don't remember it being when I was playing putt put golf this obnoxious sound and I think it's because they had those barriers they were probably had different port um surfaces right too so I I have frankly been shocked that we had not gotten concerns from before because to me it's an incredibly obnoxious sound I I agree totally and I even think it's a fun game to play I brought this up a while ago we were not getting resident concerns and so yeah it was not something that yeah was acted on because no one we wer you're smart for staying I don't know what everybody else is leaving for I'm just not I did call the police once the do thing but you know but it is a problem you're preaching I mean as far as I'm yeah yeah we all got it for sure um I never spoke with you because he's been dealing with it and I'm we've been dealing with but at any rate I noticed there was something on a November November 11 thing saying all the residents were notified about the upcoming meeting this was back November 11th it's in the packet you sent to Amy Wagner and none of us got any information anything about this until was it Wednesday night when it came Wednesday one if it was sent out or something none of us got it so I just we haven't had it on sure yeah I can take a look can you hold because we're not done with our meeting yet so we need to that's okay but we just need to wrap up

the the last little bits of our meeting anything else anything else anyone wants to say on this subject think Matt you have a lot of yeah say things to investigate and a lot of things to bring back as potential options and things to consider including other locations um that we you know want to maybe consider just generally too I know some people were mentioning ordinances I was looking at our sound ordinances they're very vague they talk mostly about machine sounds right um right as it stands we don't have a lot of legs to stand on to stop anybody doing this so if we're serious about noise mitigation and we want to put teeth behind it we probably need well and that's what I wonder considering BR down we even though it is a it's a sport thing don't do we have some um ordinance about just general noise pollution I mean I no no it's audible from 100 feet I believe is the way it's written well it is I mean it's definitely audible from 100 feet yeah I think it's trickier though when we've created an environment where that sound is it's reasonable to say it would be generated but yeah we can look into it I mean another angle is the park closure but I don't yeaha want it open in the morning because don't the signs at at Park say they open from dawn to dusk or something like that to 10 to 10 I think the only real ordinance but yeah but maybe we need a pickle ball ordinance yeah yeah I think and I think it might just be just a straight up pickle ball yeah I but I don't want it to be complex I just want it to be here's the pickle ball place that you play these are the times you can play it the end like we don't the because if we open that can of worms we will have pages and pages and pages of theorized rules that should be in you know the pickle ball ordinance no just time you know it starts at 8 and that's it for what it's worth the most

specific noise ordinance we have is in regards to external generator generators and it caps it at 70 DB which is ironically the exact average decel level of pickle ball y um another fun fact tennis uh is on average quieter than pickle ball alth Al though when you are serving it is generally louder than pickle ball nearing 100 DB I think the issue is not just the noise level it is the quality it is the quality of the sound it is yeah the I mean it just has a piercing kind of sound to it the rare times that people will play over at kill I I want to climb walls it's it's quite annoying yeah so I'm so I think we do we have to address it in some way because the argument that they live across the street from the park is one thing but they did not move across the street from a pickleball court you know I so the baseball argument well if you moved in next to Little League Little League was there pickle ball was not there and it is a very different sport than tennis in terms of quality of life for the people around them true that's all I move to adjourn sounds good do we have a second I'll second all in favor hi hi all right thank you very much thank you we were GNA hit the time but