Westminster Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, welcome everybody to the August meeting of the Westminster Planning and Zoning Commission.

So let everybody know that the acting chair for the Planning Commission, Lindy McNulty, is unable to join the meeting tonight. So policies and procedures require us to pick a new chair for the meeting tonight. So are there any nominations for tonight's chair position?

I'll make a nomination for Mr. Watt here.

So all those in favor?

Aye. Aye.

Okay, I hereby call the meeting to order at 6.02 p.m.

um first item on the agenda is introduction of architectural review for site development s 2500 carroll county sheriff's office headquarters we will first first hear from andrea gerhard then the applicant miss garrett the county commissioners of carroll county

who are the applicant represented by Carroll Engineering, filed a site development plan S-250020 dated September 25th, proposes a 43,971 square foot building for the new Carroll County Sheriff's Office. The land area that comprises of S25-0020 is located at the intersection of Greenwood Avenue, which if you look up at the screen, you can see it here. You also have it in front of you. Greenwood Avenue and Manchester Avenue, which is this street right here. It consists of 20 separate parcels and Yonge Street, which is right in here, which is a paper street. I'm sorry, paper right away. 14 of the 20 properties or portions thereof, including Yonge Street, are located outside the city of Westminster. And our zone C2, which is commercial medium intensity, or R7500, the residential district in Carroll County, must be annexed into the city.

The other six properties, which you can see right here at the beginning, in the front here,

and portions thereof are currently located within the city's boundaries and they are currently zone B business. So as part of this review process, all 20 of the parcels and Yonge Street would need to be consolidated as well as annexed into the city. So on July 23rd of 2026, the County Commissioners of Carroll County submitted a complete annexation petition. On July 27th, the City of Westminster Manor Common Council introduced an annexation resolution to annex the 14 properties portions thereof and that portion of yonge street located in the county which consists of 4.332 acres into the city to be all zone b business the proposed sheriff's office headquarters is allowed by right as a public service type building so here here is um all of the 20 properties that are being proposed to be consolidated And here is the site plan that is being proposed. Here is that the building and back here is going to be the fence and parking area. And you can see, sorry, let me see if I can move this at all. The blue area here represents that same area that we're seeing on the other back.

Yeah. Two questions.

have acquired that property it's actually um there's someone who currently lives there the county is in or they do have an agreement with someone who can live there for as long as they so the capture the county does own the property from the single family house that'll stay everything else to be demoed but the individual living there as andrea mentioned has a lease and they're going to honor that lease actually um So that's why it's not part of this development.

It is part of the annexation area, just not part of the consolidation area that's needed for the plant.

Okay, that was the next question. And then the last question is, the line that is inside the property boundary line, it's got an acronym, EOD or something. If you zoom on the... parcel that's in debt.

Okay. Can you zoom? Oh, right. Yes. I can't zoom in right here.

Yeah, there's an acronym on that.

I think that might be the LOD.

What does that mean?

Limits of Disturbance, typically.

Limits of Disturbance.

Okay, so that's for development. So that's stormwater management. Limits of Disturbance define the area that's actually being disturbed as part of the development that stormwater management calculated off of.

and do that because the county owns that yes gotcha they own everything okay thank you any other questions that anybody might have so the annexation petition and resolution and the plan have been forwarded to both the county and to the state to start off their 60-day review process The commissioners cannot tonight take any formal action on this plan because it is not yet in the city of Westminster. So it's being presented to the planning commission at this time for introduction and informational review only. If the annexation is approved and becomes effective, the applicable development review requirements are completed. This will now be, that project will be brought before you at that time for you to make a decision upon it for a formal development plan review and action. Therefore, tonight the commission is not being asked to provide a formal decision, but is being provided the opportunity to become familiar with the proposed project, including the proposed site layout and architectural elevations. So, here are, and I, oh, let's see. Staying down here at least a little bit. You have all these pictures in your staff reports, and there is going to be a presentation from the applicant as well, but just wanted to show you a few pictures up close. But you're going to have that opportunity to ask any questions, like I said, about the site layout and architectural elevations, and to identify any questions or issues for staff and the applicant to address as appropriate during the annexation and development review process. The applicant is here today to provide a more in-depth information about the project and the proposed site layout and architects for all groups. So there's many people here today to talk to you about this project. And also, we have this. There are some folks who would be for their presentation the people who are here to speak are part of this everyone is here has signed in and uh oh including yeah yeah the applicant has many different people that are here so um just as a yes uh the the first person who signed in is here for the second one though okay all right so first uh

I'm sorry.

Yeah, they may want to.

I can't real quick. This is not a public hearing. So you don't have to treat it that way. It's really informational. So I'd recommend just have the advocate give their presentation and then just offer anybody in the public if they have any questions or comments. And the goal, again, is for the planning zoning commission to ask their questions, learn more about the project. We're not looking for anybody to agree to anything or accept anything. And with that, I think that this is my cue. If you could introduce yourself and your speech.

Absolutely. So I'm Kaylee Haupt. I'm Division Manager for Building Construction as part of Carroll County Department of Public Works. I have my Deputy Director Eric Berdine with me here as well. And I just am here mainly to introduce the user agency. Vicki McDonnell from the Sheriff's Office is here with me, as well as our architect for Mann's Woodward Studios. This has been a project that's been going on for many, many years. I've only been with the county for two years. So from the moment I walked in the door, I've been working with these folks. But just kind of wanted to introduce them, let you know that this has been a massive team effort currently with end user as well as our architect. So I'll let the team take it from here.

Good evening, everyone. I'm Vicki McDonald, Director of Administrative Services with the Sheriff's Office. First of all, thank you all for giving us the opportunity this evening, the partnership and the work between the city and the commission and the county and our office is just instrumental and it has been great to do all this and we look forward to continuing. So with me this evening, I'm going to start first of all, Sheriff DeWeese was not able to attend this evening, but I do have a he oversees professional services, and Captain Dusty Boone, he oversees patrol operations. So since the project's inception, the Sheriff's Office, as Kaylee says, has been working with the whole building construction team and with our architectural team at Mainz Woodwork Studios. And yes, it has been quite the endeavor. Designing such an important community building requires an architect not only just to understand security and safety and layers and access, it also is instrumental in understanding the incorporation, incorporating the culture, the brand, the image, making this fit in with the community, And I can tell you they do both. It's been a very long process. Like I said, it's a lot of discussion and back and forth and a lot of really working together. So we've spent countless hours on this and we're looking forward to hearing your feedback and comments and questions. So the last thing I have to say is not only do we feel this meets our current needs, but we're positioned for the long term and in the future with what this looks like. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. As indicated, I'm having a great year with MW Studios and the principal studio lead of the law enforcement studio at MW Studios. We're an architecture firm out of Baltimore, Maryland that specializes in public safety architecture. So law enforcement facilities, training centers, 911 call centers. And what we have here today is a longstanding client. We've been working with Carroll County since our firm's inception back in 2009, 2008. At the Public Safety Training Center, some miscellaneous work with the Sheriff's Office. And now, most currently, the new home will be Carroll County Sheriff's Office. For those of you who don't know, the Carroll County Sheriff's Office is one of the larger sheriff's offices in the state of Maryland at over 140 plus warrant officers at any given time. In addition to the civilian staff. Currently, they operate at a mixture of facilities scattered throughout the county, but most notably the old jail. right down the street, right, which is quite an older facility, quite an undersized facility, especially when you put into terms of their operating capacity and all of the different services they're providing to Carroll County. So as indicated, the new home is positioned to be off of the intersection of Greenwood Avenue and Manchester Avenue right down the street. The facility is single-story at 43,000-some-odd square feet. And once again, the main purpose of this facility size is to consolidate a lot of the current roles, positions, and operational needs of the sheriff's office, all under one. A little bit about the facility. One of the big parts in any type of law enforcement facility that our bullet MW studios and acting law enforcement agency that we work with is community involvement. a long ago, you know, a lot of what law enforcement or what you think about law enforcement buildings today, we think of kind of very bricks and mortar, like the FBIJ or Hoover building, like something out of Soviet Russia. We're really trying not to do that. Part of contemporary police work and law enforcement work is about community transparency and accessibility. And that's what we're trying to do here with... speaking through our building with the amount of glazing and the frontage of how it's kind of opening up and greeting Greenwood Avenue. And second to that, the building, much like an officer uniform, patrol vehicles, or even the badge itself, the building is the Sheriff's Office's single largest piece of branded asset. So in this scenario, you know, we pushed really hard to match the current uniform and patrol car branding of the Carroll County Sheriff's Office while still or simultaneously still making sure that the building materials that are being selected are, you know, durable and familiar building products. So we're using the split face and polished gemstone CMUs, metal panels, and All materials, like I said, for durability, safety, security in mind, while still maintaining EPW's mandate of making sure that this is a facility that will last well over the next 50 years. There's a lot to jump into at any one point in time, but I want to be respectful of everyone's time. Is there any one single item that you would like us to focus on or talk about? We have different views of the facility.

I have a quick question. You said for the next 50 years, what kind of population growth does that imply?

So right now we're projecting a roughly somewhere between 1 to 1.34% growth increase on average. Okay.

Is that pretty consistent with recent history? It is.

It is. There's obviously times that we'll exceed that through 2008, times after that. post-2008 or COVID. It's not below that. But yeah, on average, it's roughly a percentage to a percent, three-quarter. And what that translates to, now don't, there's a little bit of misnomer of swarm personnel relative to population growth. So I'm trying not to get too hung up on making those two correlated items. But yes, it in mind, not a tremendous amount, right? Because we don't want to build this thing for everyone and they're just not sitting inside and working out of an echo chamber, right, where there's no one walking through the halls. But at the same time, through the use of the floor planter monitor, we've targeted key areas that are within the sheriff's office operational works. Let's flip this to the bottom of this. So areas that we know receive key growth, specifically in what we call the criminal investigations division, where the lead investigators go, and the patrol area, those areas are adapted to be more open office floor plans to adapt, increase the work desk to be added to them, rather than hard wall construction. So those are kind of like hot zones of growth. And then in addition to that, a lot of the core of the building, instead of it being built out of the heavy-duty masonry products, it's more so focused on like these sheetrock, which is easier to adapt to the future. So these are all administrative offices. administrative offices, but within, so the way to look at any given law enforcement agency is you have the overarching agency, you have the administrative part of it that operates, so Sheriff Deweese, Vicki, and her team, and then you have sub-divisions that break down into that. So the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, the way to look at that is you have the administrative division, You have the patrol division. You have the criminal investigation division. You have civilian margin area, which are non-sworn personnel. You have your forensics, tax, and evidence storage. And then you have your special response teams.

So the existing building isn't going anywhere. That's not being repurposed. This is in addition to the existing building.

Yes, and down the road a little bit, yes. But the existing jail, yeah, that'll If there are any plans for that, that's probably, yeah.

Yeah, there's spot crosses for the whole campus, but there are spaces, like the forensics lab is currently in underneath. It's in Hampstead. Yeah, in Hampstead. And that's in a space that other user agencies can use. So it's a conversation we're always having in DPW of all of these spaces that they are kind of pulling from to now housing this building. We obviously have use for it. It's just a matter of who's going to get it and who's not going to get it. That's true, yeah.

There are. So you locate that right here. We do have two folding cells and a small processing area. They fold that work, though, just due to the proximity of this location. We also, the Sheriff's Office does have access to the county jail. So that would constitute the bulk of any scenario that would require holding. In the event that you have to bring someone in specifically for questioning or in any scenario like that, we still have the ability to do contention here. But it is under 23 hours and 59 minutes or less. It's no prolonged holding or anything like that.

Yeah. Very upper right corner. What's that facility?

That's the fitness room area. One of the many current lacking amenities of the current sheriff's office. As everyone knows, part about being in law enforcement, majoring in law enforcement, you do have to pass a mental physical aptitude test. And that's really just somewhere there to draw people in and have them keep working out. It also goes a long way for retention and recruitment. It's a pretty bigger attraction, especially to the younger cadet crowd or cadet crowd that's coming out of the cadet school, might be starting in patrol. That's just another bonus feature that helps, you know, kind of persuade people to see the career in Carroll County and see in Carroll County. criminal response team. So as people may know, the Carroll County Sheriff's Office has a number of street crime or emergency response vehicles. Um, they're pretty, they're big dollar investments for the county. So getting them, um, consolidated 101 roof indoors is huge. So it's meant for the current man bus. Um, there is a dispatch vehicle, uh, an additional dispatch vehicle and the armor personnel carrier that is currently in possession of all was going to house there.

Yeah.

Like our illustrations show, you know, the intentions of the material palette and everything is to be both minimal and neutral while still reflecting, you know, the sheriff's office and their current branding while still not being, you know, overly loud or, you know, temporary or flashy or shiny or anything.

When you give an elevation, can you kind of tell them where the elevation, which street it's looking upon?

So this right now is if you were standing on Greenwood Avenue with your back to the center and you're looking, that would be southbound and then Manchester would be back here in the distance. You can see that, you know, because we are in Westminster, there is a Decent amount of great change that slopes off and a big challenge of this project is with stormwater management power, meaning our pervious surface area. So a good chunk of this front area is going to be dedicated to our stormwater management facilities, which also goes into play of helping to protect the building from any bit and screening it with the planter basins that were required by small water management.

I'm taking a rear portion of the building's two stories.

It appears to be two stories. It's technically a single story volume. What you're noticing is just the height of the roof line as required to house those large command under one roof. We use that height to our advantage, however, so the building is approximately, I want to say, 26 feet to the gutter line. That rear height, we incorporated additional mezzanine storage on the interior of our evidence processing area. So it's definitely not wasted space by any means. or elevator or anything like that.

We also moved all the mechanical equipment onto that mezzanine as well, just for longevity of the equipment, as well as not having the eyesores of big equipment up on the roof as well.

Or the noise, for that matter. Yeah, some of the mechanical systems, especially in the case of the condition or long-term evidence storage, they take in a lot of air, and they kind of sound like this coming vacuum cleaner when they're bugged out and you open. All of those things are under

There's no other comments about the architecture. Maybe you want to talk about the site and how it's laid out and access and elements.

Yeah. Would it be better to point to it over there on the screen? So a big part of any law enforcement facility is parking, obviously. But the mainstay of parking is based around shifts for parts and the transitioning of that amount of vehicles is always a big, how do we deal with this logistic challenge? So what we have here, Greenwood Avenue at the bottom of the screen, Manchester. Here's our building. We have purposely held the building off from Greenwood Avenue to give way to that large public plaza and our stormwater planters that you've seen in the previous rendering. of that is from a security standpoint. The other part is we appreciate the idea of giving the building and the street a little bit of breathing room just to make sure that whatever pedestrian It's not just being crowded against the building in the street face. It also becomes a public plaza area before entering into the building itself. From a security standpoint, it allows our officers to ID any possible personnel as they approach the building. They're not just getting out of a car out of the street and just pass in front of the building immediately. And then we have the building itself. Around the back of the building, we have our primary secure entrance, which will look like it's technically a powder-coated black aluminum, but it'll look like a wrought iron gate that'll allow vehicle traffic to the back lot here. And then this back lot will actually be approximately 10 feet lower than this building. So kind of all of the functional, utilitarian, Take activities that are happening behind the sheriff's office to shield it from the from the street. We're letting the. Building kind of do a lot of the talking a lot of the representation of what you see from Manchester and Greenwood Avenue. Wow. Everything else that's happening kind of behind the scenes is that. Well, they said parking layout, we will have parking for. What we designed the station at. where both the second patrol shift will be in use along with all investigators and administrators and civilians entering the building. And then up front, we've also left additional public parking because we do have a community an average person like myself to have to go back to the secure lot. The secure lot will also have a second means of egress that deposits out onto Manchester Avenue. And then we have preferred handicap and key administrative parking just around back that's just elevated and within the lower lot.

And that back egress will have access control as well?

Yes.

And then that white area between the handicap parking and bay parking. What is that?

That's a hill. Oh, so it's a draft. Yeah, yeah. So it's going to be a sloping hill. Obviously, you know, when you have a site that has this kind of, you know, much topography to it, one of the main budgetary concerns is trying to move as little as possible and construct as little retaining walls as possible. This project has a considerable amount of that to begin with. So where we can save money, we went with just a natural sloping hillside And where's the stormwater management going for the larger back parking lot? It is all subterranean storage facilities. That'll be with inlets. There's a handful of it that we were able to pick up with with islands and then also sheep flowing to the area around back to the forested area to the east here. But as far as this parking lot is concerned, yeah, the bulk of it is subterranean facility. Versus the building here, which we are, the majority of it we are in with retention facilities scattered around the point that we then subsequently turn it to the additional security blockage.

Excuse me. Far enough side to probably be one. There's a retaining wall that's going to run that all night? This side?

Yes. Technically, no. The retaining wall starts approximately here and then tapers out right around here. OK. And it is reduced in height. It's not terribly tall. It's got to be like 60 years. No, it's nothing like that. All right. I know we just threw a lot at you all. This is a couple of years in the making. Definitely, definitely welcome any type of thoughts or comments.

Is there anyone else that would like to speak? So give your name and address. I have a quick question, just a minor thing. Dennis Riggs, Broadway, 87 Moore Airport in Portland.

On the front of the building or side, whatever, is a star, the sheriff's badge is on there? Yes. The current sheriff designed that badge and put it up there, which is all great. So what happens if a new sheriff comes in and wants to design another badge?

Is that easy to remove and put a new one up, or does that one stay there?

Yeah, so it's a cast aluminum plaque. Yeah, it is all revolted to the masonry exterior. It's not would be free to remove it. But yeah, it's not like it's embossed in the stone or cast in the stone. Like if you're familiar with any of the Maryland State Police barracks, the logo is literally stamped in the cast. Anybody else?

All right. As Mr. Gerhard said, we're not here to make any decisions today. We are able to ask questions of the applicant. Does anyone else on the commission have any questions for the applicant? All right. Sorry about that. It's original or are they going to upgrade that again? So currently there's nothing in the budget.

um to handle that but um underneath the patrol we'll be moving from there to oh the old oh yeah your offices oh no there's no there's no plan that is um a historic building so you have to be very careful what we do but currently there's nothing in the budget to do any work within that facility unless it's like upkeep through the facilities budget okay so and the other question yes sir um the old jail I mean, again, there's no, there's no set budget to do anything once all of these folks move out. Again, if it goes as planned, we would be, this would be moving in. spring of 2029, if everything goes correctly. So it is a little bit further out. We are, like I said, having conversations within the county of who's going to get it whenever real estate opens up, all user agencies kind of fight for it and want it for storage offices, you know, a hub of an area right there near the county office building, but there's no set in stone plans as of yet.

There's no set plans whatsoever to increase jail capacity.

Oh, no, like separate buildings. Yeah. The old historic jail, which is where there's administrative offices, and then there's the detention center, which has patrol underneath of it. So as of now, there's no funding to do anything to either of those buildings.

OK. Anybody else? All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Next up on the agenda is a public hearing for the local map amendment LMA 25-01 zoning map amendment to superimpose the compatible neighborhood overlays in the property zone R7500 residential zone. For the record, the start of the public hearing is I think it's 35 p.m. The public hearing has been properly posted in the Carroll County Times meeting. All state and island requirements.

Thank you. Village Square LLC, the applicant submitted an application for a local map amendment to superimpose the compatible neighborhood overlay zone or the CN zone over the R75 residential zone, the R75 residential zone, together with a conceptual development plan illustrating the proposed development type of development square. And I'll just refer to that as a conceptual plan throughout the nice discussion or presentation. The proposal is to construct a mixed use building containing 122 bedroom multi-family dwelling units and approximately 9,100 square feet of ground floor commercial space. The commission tonight is being asked to receive public testimony on the outboard LMA. on the local map amendment and consider the information presented by staff, the applicant, and members of the public. Any further additional discussions at one or more future work sessions is appropriate. No final recommendation to the Mayor and County Council on LMA 2501 is requested at this time. Sorry. No, no, no. No. The subject property, 102 Weimert Avenue, also identified by State Department of Assessment Taxation, SDAT 07069308. The zone, again, RS-7500 zone, and located within the city of Westminster. The property is located in the southwestern quadrant of the intersection of Sullivan Road and Weimert. If you can point those out. It is bordered by Sullivan Avenue to the north, Weimert Avenue to the east, Schaefer Avenue to the west. Weimert, Sullivan, and Schaefer are two-lane roadways and classified as local roadways. The property presently contains several existing multifamily residential structures that predate the current zoning framework applicable to the site. The surrounding housing types include existing single-family dwellings, multifamily dwellings, and there are planned two-over-two townhouses, which the commission is familiar with. That's the Willows Project. The property is located in the W1 water service area and the S1 sewer service area. The property has a land-use designation of urban residential in the City of Westminster comprehensive plan. land designated for urban residential development located within the original sections of the city. This is a high-density residential classification which allows for five to six units per acre and a mixture of housing types. That's the end. This slide shows the buildings I was mentioning that are pre-existing. The conceptual plan, which is for you now, is provided for consideration in connection with the requested CM zone and is not a detailed site plan. The mixed-use building fronts on Sullivan and Wyvert Avenue. Parking is provided through surface parking to the rear of the building and ground floor parking underneath the building. The total number of required parking spaces for the 122 bedroom units is 180, and for the 9,100 square feet retail space is 37 for a total of 215 parking spaces. And the applicant will ask if they, in that presentation, explain how the parking requirements were met. I do want to point out in the staff report, I did not account for the parking can explain that a traffic impact analysis dated june 25th 2026 was triggered by landline traffic consulting uh inc the tia which has been prepared in accordance with carroll county's adequate public facilities ordinance and the maryland department of transportation state highway administration tia requirements which are acceptable methods by the city of westminster mark

To make it the same as the other maps, it really should be rotated 90 degrees to the left. Yeah. We can do that.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so it kind of throws you a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah. The check page in impact analysis The intersections that were reviewed operated level of service D or better during the morning. For the APFO, LOS or level of service D or better is acceptable levels of service. And the applicant can go over the traffic impact analysis in more detail. So there are no failing intersections caused by this development for the traffic impact analysis. And we'll look at that more as we go through the process through site development plan as well. Those 120 multifamily dwelling units are to be two-bedroom units requiring a water and sewer allocation of 18,000 gallons per day. And the 9,100 square feet of retail requires 455 gallons per day for a total allocation of 18,455 gallons per day. Pursuant to the Water and Sewer Allocation Master Distribution Chart, there is 3,890 gallons per day of water available in the Inside City Only Residential Multi-Full Family category for the 2026 calendar year and 47,605 gallons per day of water available in the Inside City Only Commercial and Industrial category for the 2026 calendar year. However, there are 48,930 gallons per day of capacity available in the general water and general sewer fund categories for 2026 calendar year. So what's that saying is that there's plenty of available water for the commercial proposed. There's lacking water in the category for the residential proposed, wherever the city has excess water that could be transferred over to that category for this project. So there is water available. Does anybody have any questions about that?

Yeah, I have a question. Do you know if the current water usage is for the property?

I don't have that in the report. We can get that for you. Now, a lot of the units aren't occupied. Some of the buildings that were originally built aren't existing at this time. But we can get you an actual water count out of this today. So that is a good point because there is an envelope.

And then, following on that question, the discussion about the transfer, is that discussion, that policy discussion, going to occur in another venue? Or is that on our list of things?

It would be on your list of things for recommendation. Ultimately, the Water and Sewer Allocation Committee is the entity that can move the water I think a recommendation of the mayor and county council for this application, ultimately, the water and sewer allocation would be part of the water and sewer allocation committee's decision.

But that would be a condition for the whole thing to go forward.

Yes. We have to have water. Generally, we have to have water available for the development. Whether it's applied today is not relevant. Ultimately, there's a site development plan. We said to demonstrate today that the city itself has the available water and sewer capacity for this type of development. We recommend that the CN zone is applied and for the Mayor and Common Council to make a decision on that CN zone. At the end of the day, it's the site plan that gets the water. That's when it's actually attached.

Are you going to go into

later. So again, this is just the conceptual plan. And the staff will be asking that this conceptual plan as well as the architecture goes with any decision you have. So as we go to the work sessions, we are looking for the fan zoning commission to comment on the design of the layout, the architecture of the building. And as part of the recommendation, similar to what we did with the willows, you also forwarded go back to the other one we'll get the architecture but um so some of the elements i just want to point out that the applicants speak up or as we move forward and staff is recommended to move forward to work sessions i just want to point out some of the outstanding elements that um that staff is asking that the planning is only commission consider for the applicant to provide two uh one is the applicant to provide a status to the residential occupancy I know that's already ongoing, but that would be helpful if they could explain that process. The proposed conceptual plan lacks some usable common open space, and given the proposed density and building form, staff recommend that the applicant provide additional information regarding the amount of patient accessibility programming and usability of constant open space areas. Again, this doesn't happen overnight. The hope is as we go through work sessions, to work with staff in the Planning Zone Commission Plan. The proposed conceptual development plan depicts sidewalks along Sullivan and Weimar Avenue and a portion of Schaefer. In addition, the sidewalks are curb adjacent to the roadways. Staff is recommending that sidewalk be provided along the entirety of Schaefer Avenue and that the sidewalk provide a landscape buffer between the sidewalk and roadways. indicate that parking is achievable along Sullivan Avenue and Weimert and Schaefer Avenue. So again, this is parking that isn't applied to their requirements, but certainly we want more street parking. But then if we redesign, we're looking at that be a better defined design as we move forward. The concept plan includes a large four-story multifamily structure and occupies a substantial portion of the property. So staff is recommending that additional Elevation or evaluation of the elevations, facade articulation, height transitions, and architectural detailing. Again, this is nothing new to the Planning and Zoning Commission. To be further discussed as we move through the project. The conceptual plan to fix minimal landscaping on the property, landscaping, and screening. The traffic analysis review the surrounding roadway transportation network. However, staff is recommending that the applicant evaluate pedestrian safety movements and intersection operations to understand the cumulative impact of the proposed mixed-use development in the surrounding local streets. And finally, staff would recommend the commission Speaking of architectural elevations. Architectural elevations depict a contemporary multiple family building utilizing variations of facade materials, balconies, offsets, roofline, and articulation. Staff notes that additional refinement of the side articulation, pedestrian-scale architectural detailing, and massive transitions may be appropriate during the due process for this development. And as always, development is subject to the residential and commercial development design preferences of the design preferences manual. And again, I'm going to let the applicant speak more in the architecture. So with that, staff recommend that following the public hearing, the commission forward LMA 2501, who want or more future work sessions to deliberate and the conceptual plan submitted in connection with LMA 2501. And following completion of its deliberation, forward a recommendation regarding LMA 2501 to the Mayor and Common Council for consideration and final legislative action. And again, just to note that this introduction of the application scheduling for public hearing shall not constitute a binding regarding the ultimate merits of the application or compliance with all applicable approval criteria

Any questions for Mr. DeCliff? All right. Well, not yet. We're from staff, right? Yeah. OK. So hearing none, we're going to move on to the public comments. Sir, did you sign in to make them? Oh, did you sign me in?

I just signed in May, but I can add him to it as we came in together.

Okay. First, we have to have the applicant make their presentation. Then we'll have the phone. Okay. All right. My first time here. Yep. All right. All right. Mr. Hackett. No, I'm going to start.

Okay.

Don't worry. Good evening, everyone. Kelly Schaefer Miller, 73 East Main Street, Westminster, Maryland, 2157. I'm here tonight on behalf of the applicant. I'm going to try to speak up, but if you can't hear me at any point, please let me know. We were here in May for an introduction of this. So some of you have seen it, but I realize that we also have some new membership as well. here is a revitalization of an existing site. My client, Ernie, who's seated right behind me, began pursuing redevelopment of this site several years ago. And as Mr. Defoe noted in the staff report, this site is historic in terms of the city's zoning code and does not comply with the zoning regulations. So he encountered some difficulties as a result of its lack of compliance with the underlying zoning, if you will. The goal here tonight is to hear comments and feedback. We heard some from the commission members during the introduction, but those were very general. And then to proceed forward to any work sessions and get into more detailed discussions. As we said at the introduction of this topic, there is flexibility with the site design, and I think you'll see from a lot of the outstanding issues that Mr. Debo identified, they all are interconnected to some extent, right? If the city desires to see increased open space, that impacts our parking calculation, which impacts the layout. So all of these components are tied together, and this is the beginning of your opportunity for a review of this plan and comments on this plan, but then we'll evolve the plan itself. As Mr. Defoe also stated, this is the beginning of a process. So I just want to be very clear that we are several years away from any site plan approval if this overlay zone is approved. Because the site plan approval through the city and with the county's review as well is a multi-year process. And that has not even started yet. The very first step of this is an application for this overlay zone. If and when that is approved by Barron Council, then a formal site plan will be submitted and we'll have to go through the normal and ordinary review process. So just briefly, because Mark mentioned it. I do want to bring to your attention that there are this plan that's before you is showing 225 total parking spaces. So that does account for the garage parking that Mark did not account for. So it is in compliance with the current parking standards of the code. Additionally, Mr. Boyd asked a question about the water allocation. And I just want to point out, and I'm sure Mark will tell me if I'm wrong here, but If again if and when this plan proceeds the existing water usage will be evaluated as part of the water allocation process. Because it will be given a sort of envelope for the existing usage and then only the net new water necessary will be applied for through the application through the allocation. So. We have our whole team here with us tonight. So let me just take a second to introduce everybody. Marty Hackett with CLSI who prepared the plan that's before you tonight is with us. Ernie who's seated right behind me is the owner of the site. Hannah is here with our architecture firm and Mike is here with our traffic consulting company. So we are here to offer you any additional information that you asking for us tonight. We anticipate being engaged through the continuation of the process and any work sessions and future meetings as well. We understand that tonight is the opportunity for public comment, and so we are here to listen and hear any concerns and comments that there are in this plan. But if you should have any questions specific to the traffic study or otherwise, we wanted everybody to be here to be able to answer those for you. So, thank you very much.

Um... Rather than us asking a bunch of questions and then hearing other questions from the public, why don't we do the public comments first and then do our questions? Does that matter?

It does a bit. If you have questions for the applicant now, then you would ask your questions first, and then you open up the hearing for public comment. Okay.

All right. If you have new questions, you can always ask. Commissioners, questions for the applicant? So there's a small one, but they can operate at an acceptable level. So along those lines, the commercial space in the Orange Park, that's just on the first floor, correct? And is the anticipation that the access to that commercial space would only be from the new parking lot, not from Sullivan Road?

That's flexible. Currently, as designed and shown in the renderings, it is from the parking lot side. But if there was a need or a desire to have it face the opposite side, we can still do that.

I don't have an opinion about it, but yeah. I don't think it should open though. You don't? No. Yeah. He just warned me. I mean, opening on the other side, parking and everything out on the street, it Well, what made me think of it was Mr. Yardhart's comment about, or maybe it was Mr. Depot's, about not having any parking shown on Sullivan or Schaefer, or Weimar for that matter, whether that was anticipated. It's just not ready yet. Because if there was parking along Sullivan, particularly solvent, then it might make it more feasible to have access to, which would then relieve congestion in the main part. All subject to discussion, I'm sure. Just asking. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Mr. Hackett, as we get into workshops, as we go forward, we're planning on looking at a parallel street parking system along those roadways. And they would be more along the line of where you create parallel parking by the indentation of the curb line. pronounced, which will require a little bit of road widening probably and maintain the actual existing roadway. I mean, all those items that Mark came up as issues are ones that we're going to address individually, landscaping and everything. That plan has nowhere near what the landscape is going to be showing. The code is pretty stringent on that. So we plan on addressing that as we go forward. I predict them until we settle. And I know it's in the document, and I've read it, and I've completely forgotten it. The number of units, the number of residential units, what's that predicted to be? And those are all what? Two veterans. Two veterans. Two or four people per unit. Two powers per unit. OK. well you know any other i don't know yes sir um that's going to be sullivan avenue um any plans to decide we're not even at that point yet okay um you know we we're going to be looking at these roadways if you notice that there's a couple pretty large power poles down there that we would like to try to work around because they get really expensive multi-million dollar investment. So along those lines, will this project necessitate a public works agreement where the developer makes commitments for infrastructure improvements not directly related to the project?

They went through a public works agreement for any work in the right of way. So that's sidewalks, street work, water, sewer improvements, any stormwater management, potentially. So they would be all wrapped up in the public works agreements. And then sureties would be provided by the applicant as well. And all that would have to occur before any permits are approved.

Okay. Anybody else want to commission? All right. So now we'll open it up to public comments. I'm just going to go through the sign-in list as it was signed in. So we've heard from Mr. Hackett and Ms. Miller. So the next person up from the beginning is Karen Donaldson. Ms. Donaldson, if you could just state your address for the record.

I live at 657 Downhill Drive in Westminster. And I actually went over to the neighborhood and walked around and I counted 44 units. But it was previously reported that there's 32. But like Mark mentioned, it's possible some aren't lived in. But a lot of them lived in. It was a nicely well-kept neighborhood. And I'm really concerned about where these people would be relocated to. I donate food twice a month to the homeless shelter, and I've been doing it for like three years. And the number of people there has doubled because I'm feeding them. And I just, I can't imagine. I don't know what they're paying rent. I didn't meet any of them. I didn't knock on doors. But the perceived 120 units at market rate, I don't think these people are paying market rate. And it was, you know, Kelly Shaper Miller had mentioned previously on May 21st, it's at a commissioner's meeting that it's a little premature to discuss the displacement specifics. And if I live there, I would say it's not premature, you know, because if a family is going to be displaced and there's no place else for them to go, that's pretty intense. The other thing I'm really concerned about, you just mentioned a little while ago, Mr. Weck, was parking. They mentioned 250 spaces. I've heard different numbers thrown around in writing. 250 is the highest number, which is a great number. But you did the quick math. 120 units, two cars each, that's 240 spaces that are needed just for the people that are living there. I don't think that 250, I don't think it's going to be 10 spaces left for the commercial. It just doesn't make sense. And the traffic study, I mean, I drive down 140 all the time. I go get gas at the Sitco. Everybody knows that intersection is just horrendous. And I think there were two accidents there the first month sheets opened. So to have 120 units with two or three people living in the unit, they're going out on 140 for everything. So I can't fathom that the traffic report was accurate. So they're experts and I'm not. but it just doesn't seem realistic that that's going to be a safe intersection once you dump 120 units there. The other thing is I drove down Main Street today, and certainly the city would know better than I, but I counted up 25 vacant commercial spaces on Main Street. I just don't think that Westminster needs more commercial spaces. There's just commercial spaces everywhere, and I'm sure the people that own those spaces would love to be leasing them versus see some new construction on the other side of town. So those are my concerns, and I'm sure they'll be addressed in the future, but I feel like the sooner that is spoken up and on record, the better. Thank you very much.

Next up is Vicki McDonald.

Just to start, Ron, sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry. Ron, sorry. Is it Jose? Yes. For you?

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the attention. I've been living over there for 17 years. It's a really nice area. And everything looks really nice, right? The thing is, everybody, I think everybody pays around $1,000 a month for rent. And I want to know what happened with those people. They don't want to take kids to another apartment, pay $2,000 and $3,000 a month. It's really nice people living in the area. Almost everybody is my friend. For me, it's okay, you know, I can go to different areas. And what happens with those people? It feels like sick people, poor people, and it's a lot of babies. And everything looks really nice now, only what's going on with the people over there. we take it to a different department, I don't know, one thing. Thank you. You're welcome.

So this is Mike Flenner. I'm part of the applicants. Oh, okay. Hannah? Oh, you're here too. Okay. This is Nick. I'm 13, precarious. Oh, Nicole. Nicole, I'm sorry.

I live on 18 Hirsch Avenue, Westminster. So for me, some of the questions, especially with the traffic and so forth on Hirsch Avenue, Sullivan goes into Weimar and you have St. John's Church there. So every morning and afternoon and on the weekends, there's constant, there's a ton of traffic because they have a school. So you're saying you're going to put 120 units there, unless you're going to have all that parking. So all those people are going to be going to work or whatever. The traffic in that intersection can't sustain that much. Also, in Weimar, that road, you may say it's two lanes, but in reality, it really is one and a half, because people park on that road to go to their houses, because it's very residential. So that's one of my concerns. especially with the traffic. Also, looking at the rendering that was done building itself doesn't seem to fit the neighborhood. Four stories, it just seems a bit off. I'm not sure from the pictures which way it's going to be facing. Looking at the picture, I don't know if you have it up on the screen, show how it's going to look with this circular entranceway. to the main area. It doesn't look as if the property can sustain that many buildings. I don't know if there's another picture that you have that shows the front that has like a circular. Is that all you have of the? I have this. Yeah. Okay. All right. So you have the one that has the, you know, entrance way, you know. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, there it is. That's it. So looking at that, I mean, it doesn't seem as if three and a half acres is going to be enough to sustain that kind of size. It just doesn't seem to work, but You know, my concern is it doesn't fit the neighborhood. Number one, number two, the traffic. And third part is, is some of these apartments going to be Section 8 housing?

That's a good question. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm curious what kind of housing is going to be.

So that's another question that I have for that. I don't know.

trying to think if there's anything else to address.

Oh, okay.

I guess I actually need to sign in. We can't do that. Yeah, we can't together. I didn't think as we need to sign the hand down, but go right on.

We're right on. Same stuff. Okay. Okay. All right. Rezos? Mr. Rezos?

Yeah.

And you're at 16 or something as well?

Okay. So I have a few comments on this I'd like to share.

Again, echoing some of the other people, it seems like a very big project.

the story that's being commercial. And I think that's probably, I mean, you have to look at that in that sense. Do we have fire equipment? Do we get to the top floor? And then if you add the treatment on the three that you're saying, which is sidewalks, trees, and everything like that, that's a setback from the actual place fire equipment is located. So has the fire department been consulted about this kind of stuff? In terms of, you know, a criminal issue or in terms of a, you know, emergency issue. Because there are not a lot of streets there and the streets are small. And I don't really think the commercial space makes sense. And I'd like to kind of echo what that lady said. There's plenty of other places that probably are better suited. I'd like to also agree with other people who said that the traffic is going to be a nightmare. If you're at Sitco, or you come down the other street at Sullivan, you're waiting one, two, three cars. And that's when it's not crowded. And then you have to wait for that line of cars that are going straight across the intersection of 140. Now, maybe three cars can get onto it. If you're going on 140 east, You have to waste all those cars to move. Imagine you now have 240 people or more that are coming in and out of this particular neighborhood with this short stretch roadway. And you get backed up at that light. get out of the way. Either of those cars are going to go around, and it just seems to me that has not been addressed. So the location could be a potential gigantic bottleneck. And again, you're near two schools, and you're near big traffic. Granted, some of that is part of the reason this has high density, but it just seems like it has too high a density, and it's too high a building. It doesn't fit into the And from what I read, you're talking about neck downs or whatever these street treatments miles an hour. And this street isn't like Main Street, which also has that street. It's an open street, let's say, for miles. These streets, 600 feet, 800 feet, they're less than a mile. It seems a little overkill. And it also seems like if you have snow cleaning and removal and any kind of emergency services, you're just going to make things worse. The other thing is rate subsidized. And if so, by whom? Is it an agreement with nonprofits or any kind of companies that have a deal to rent a number of apartments in bulk? That's not clear. It seems, again, this is dumped on the neighborhood. We all recognize the need for additional housing. We do not want to be in a neighborhood that all of a sudden has this giant You know, communist style housing that's pretty up. It looks brutal compared to what the rest of you. And that's not a comment on the design. It's just, it's out of character. It's too. The lighting for the building. Also, again, if you look at this neighborhood, it's not commercial and it seems like there's a lot of lights that are being planned as if this is in a different area. It looks like this is a project for a different spot. or the dimensions that it would fit into. I mean, I'm not talking about the size of the project, but they're a little too much thrown in. And I think just based on the initial read of this and looking at some of this stuff, it's not working. It's not working in terms of density. It's not working in terms of commercial space. It's not working in terms of the traffic. It's not working in terms of the parking. And it just, it seems like it's throwing everything at the wall and seeing what will be accepted. And for me, living in the neighborhood, that seems to be inappropriate. Let's get a more realistic neighborhood friendly, because we're not in an industrial area. We're in an established neighborhood. We should be able to have canyon buildings, even if they're at a higher density, that makes sense. I don't see any four-story buildings that are in this neighborhood or nearby. It just seems ridiculous. So that's my comment. It just feels, and I understand this is a preliminary kind of meeting, but it feels like the project is too big, not tailored to the specific spot. Thank you.

Ms. Brown.

Hi, my name's Bridget. I'm going to process this by saying I'm sorry. I'm going to be very upfront. I'm very anti-building anything new around here in an apartment condo complex, anything that close to 140. I grew up in a major city. I've lived in a smaller city. And then I finally made my way out to somewhere somewhat by it. That's so far. We're not quite O means mills, but I've watched that change and we're going farther and farther up. Um, it's just going to keep spreading and I'll say it. I'm a commuter. I live down. I work in ammonium. I don't want more cars on the road. I don't care if it's 100 cars. It may not sound like a lot, but it is a lot. 150% agree that that intersection is terrible. Fortunately, I don't need to go there often when I do it to the diner. And when I go to the diner, I'm like, man, this intersection, it's not good at all. Really agree with the mayor's revitalization of the town. Really agree with what you said. I'm sorry, I forgot your name. Karen. Karen. We have so many commercial spaces that are just sitting there. And that's, I mean, that's not ideal for the town, for the city. It would be great if someone would take those. And I know the reason that they aren't being taken, and instead of something like this is being taken, it's because of the profit to the developers. There's not as much process to define a few rules, to weaken a few commercial spaces. So to the developers, aside from your profit, what is Westminster gaining from this development? Like he said, you could be displaced. You're happy, you have family, you have friends, you build this place. And You have to go somewhere else. You may be comfortable where you are and what you're paying right now. I live in Section 8 housing. And when you're going somewhere else and the rent triples, I mean, things are so crazy expensive right now. It's not just, we'll give you six months to get out and we'll give you a little bit of money to help you get on your feet. It could be a major price adjustment for someone who has to be displaced. Who is happy there? My other thing, going back to the traffic and increased population. Yeah. Maybe if each household, we'll say there's 120 units, we'll say half of those households have one child. May not seem like a lot, but we'll just say there are 60 kids there. And the school accommodates them. Is the school already overpopulated? I don't know. If it's not, then maybe that's because the kids isn't a big deal. If it is overpopulated and underfunded, then that is a big deal. I agree that it takes up so much space. It's in the report. There's really no recreational area. So again, those 50 kids or other kids in the area, where are they going to play? On that crazy road, which is right down the road from that crazy 140. I tried to maintain an open mind about a lot of things, but when I heard about this, this is the first time I've ever showed up for something like this, I said, I can't see this happening. I'm gonna read about it, I'm gonna be, Try to see that I can't see it and hear what I'm hearing already. There's component about emergency services. There's so many reasons where I don't see that this benefits anyone but the people who are going to be directly profiting off of it. And that goes against everything that our mayor has been doing an amazing job at changing and like building this place up again. So if anyone was going to develop anything here, I would want that person to be someone who has direct eyes and commitment to the development of this community, not someone who doesn't live here, not someone who lives an hour away. I want you to be local to Westminster and care about the development of Westminster. Like I said, I'm going to be really frank and I apologize in some capacity as if it's inappropriate in what I'm saying. But I don't like the idea for multiple reasons. I hope that it does not go farther.

Thank you, Ms. Brown. Is there anyone else wishing to speak? OK. With no other public speakers or additional testimony, The public hearing is hereby closed at 7.21 p.m. Does the Commission have any comments on LMA 25-01? So you have here on here about a motion. What's the motion?

Mark Knight and your staff board of recommendation. to go to public, I mean, I'm sorry, to go from public hearing as you were saying to a work session.

That's the motion.

That would be the motion that is on the staff report as a record.

Yes. So I guess this is just a quibble, but why do we have to make a motion? That seems like a basic procedure. You want to do it? All right.

I think it's beneficial to be in the record that the claims are in commission. asking to go to work session and track staff as well. Okay. Schedule work session.

And I have a motion to move to work session on LNA 25-01. I'll make a motion to move forward to the work session. Motion, Mr. Boyd? I will second that. Second, Mr. Cade. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. On to the work session. And just, you know, for the public, we really didn't decide anything here. We're just continuing to study this and take more input and have a conversation with the developer in the neighborhood about where this might go. That's basically it.

I guess what the work section involves?

A lot of talking. So a lot of back and forth, gathering more information, getting more input. From like fire and all that kind of stuff. That's all part of the approval process way downstream. So all of those things that everybody mentioned are all part of the review process. But it happens in a certain order. And so it doesn't happen right now.

Will planning and zoning look into house values that are near this complex? Is that part of it or not really? You don't care about the residents? It's not bad.

It's house values on an element that we look at as part for this type of process.

That's why I was asking.

There's a lot of other stuff.

Opportunity to give our views.

Yeah. There will be other hearings and multiple opportunities. Okay. Got the motion and passed. Is there anyone here from Carroll County to present or provide a report?

Hi. I'm Carolina Flood. I'm the planning liaison for Carroll County. I only have a few updates for you all. It mostly is regarding the public hearings taking place on September 3rd, where Uh, you'll be reviewing, um, the text amendments for, um, there's a series of text amendments that we're doing, uh, for public hearing. So there's one for, um, accessory dwelling units is one for retirement villages and retirement homes. And then the third one is on, um, cluster subdivisions. Um, all of the, uh, the text amendments that the specific text changes that are being made or that are being discussed during a public hearing are all publicly available online. I can forward that over to Mark and Andrea, and they can send it over to you all if you're interested in taking a look. I don't know if... Do you have to change your code for the new... accessory dwelling unit changes from the state?

We haven't looked into that yet. I can't answer that. I was just curious. We have to review our current ordinance, which does allow for accessory dwellings in a form.

Right. Okay. Yeah, so just those text amendments are going to be reviewed on September 3rd. Let's see, what else do I have? I think I have another public hearing on it. And then there's two, there's another public hearing on August 27th. There's a proposal to close a portion of Old Baltimore Road in connection with the Market Street Extended Project. So, and then there's also a, public hearing for the spring amendment to the 2023 Carroll County Water and Sewer Master Plan. But I believe, yes, so, the, yeah, the spring 2026 amendment cycle is closed and you've already been, the, sorry, Westminster was already contacted about the spring 2026 amendment cycle in January, and it does include Westminster. So that's going to be reviewed for public hearing on the 27th. Those are all the updates. Do you have any other questions?

Thank you. Does the commission have any comments or anything to discuss? the site plan and started getting provided with your the minutes for more minutes oh 2026 i apologize thank you that's right some of the direction engaged did not make them here yeah um so we need to group the minutes from our class meeting june meeting make a motion that the minutes be approved as presented and i'll second that motion motion mr board second stage All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Those are approved.

Thank you.

We'll start at the next meeting. Lindy has decided. She was the chair. All right.

Now, any staff, any commission comments? None. Staff comments? None. I have a motion to adjourn. We can do adjourn. We are adjourned.