Westminster Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

What did you just I had to make decision. Call the meeting to order of the West Planning and Sun Commission. Um, all members of President, I be remiss if I didn't congratulate Mr. Huction. Well, thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it. 57 votes. It was somewhere in the sixes or whatever. Good. Yeah. Great. Um the first the first item is the work session on zonal map amendment ZMA 2401. There's more people. I'm sorry. No problem. I'll turn it over to you Mark. You can make any remarks you want and get some feedback from. So we are at what they're talking about the Willow or the um the Willows project I'm sorry. Okay. Um so again this is a work session just to bring back some of the architecture that the applicant provided from the last meeting. Um as you recall the planning commission asked for multiple different models um of concepts that might be out there being developed today. Uh we did get three architectural elevations. They did basically the same changes in elev. But I think we're here today to try to provide the applicant some guidance, have him maybe kind of update you on his process of looking at architecture and again try to uh get some direction to move this project forward. And that's really why we're here today. I think the option three design was accepted so um by the

planning and zoning commission. So I think the referring to the layout layout we're kind of on the same page with the layout and the architect for the exactly and and the applicant has met with the adjacent property owners. Maybe you can speak about that too and how that went um about addressing some of their concerns. I think if you look at the layout, they tried to address one of the concerns with access to an adjacent property owner that spoke. But um but I think it's really work session have some collaboration and try to get some direction from the plans commission on this project. Any uh questions of Mr. Deo? Any any comments from the commission? I'll start with Mr. C. Um, well, I'll I'll be honest. I memory serves me correctly. Um, I thought that we had kind of indicated that, you know, we were kind of intrigued by something more along this line. Correct me if I'm wrong. Um, I also thought that we wanted to see, you know, multiple different types of elevations. And looking at these different elevations, they're very similar to each other. It just looks like different coloring. Um, and more open. Frankly, I'm not real to what we're doing here tonight. Um, because what I see here is not in line with what our conversations have been at the previous meetings. Um so you know and I I thought you know based on the previous meetings we kind of gave them some feedback and also ask to see multiple different versions. I even thought thought there was some conversation about you know taking some photos at different projects that they you know have done somewhere else. I

could be wrong about that. I'm going from memory. Um, but from what I see here, I don't like the elevations that I see. Yeah, that's my my type. I agree with um very looking at the other me just doesn't it's not appeal I just it just doesn't fit well because I don't think it fit the very nothing. Yeah. So green rehash to what we talked about at the last work. Well, we came back with a substantially some of the direction. If you recall what we had in front of you at the last workshop, it was a more I guess less urban feeling architecture. It was um evil ruse. It was things like that. And we were given the instruction we need to see something a little bit more urban. And yes, you did show um you did show that that one elevation, but we have a site plan that's kind of worked. I mean, we're trying to build two over twos that fit on a certain pad. So, we have that. I don't see how this would I don't see how something like this what you're showing there is any different than what what this is. I I don't really understand that from our footprint. So, we can we can continue to play with um elevation options on each of the buildings, but essentially it's it's still the same box. We we've now taken the gables off. We put a flat roof on it. Um well, it's not typically a flat

roof. is if all you did is took took up the the side, it's still a pitched roof from looking at the it's a very pitched just enough to to run down to but it doesn't have you know this this what you're showing here has none of the gingerbread or character of something like this. I mean it doesn't I mean it's like a flat box. And I guess what my point is, you know, the zoning, if you just go by zoning, it's 27 units, right? Okay. We're dropping this LMA on top to increase the density. Part of that when we worked on it on the Green Street property is, you know, we're a municipality that is interested in more density, right? But for that, you know, we want things that are more attractive. And I mean, no offense to whoever designed this. This is not what we're looking for at all and not in line with even the direction that we gave you. And additionally, we asked for, you know, three different types of elevations, you know, to kind of give us something to react to. Not basically, you gave us different coloring. I mean, those elevations, the three different elevations you gave us are not really that different from each other at all. It is the same product. It is the same building designed to sit on the site plan that we've we've kind of hatched out. And I I'm happy to to tell our architect to come up with additional facade drawings. Um, we are we are trying to get something here that works. We didn't, if you recall, we didn't even want to do 40 units there. We were happy doing developing under the current zoning. Well, if you want to develop under the current zoning, you can, but you still have to go through the site plan process, you still have to get approval for the

architecture, you know, and and I guess what I'm saying, has there not been interaction from a staff standpoint to to give them feedback with what you you've had some interaction with them through this process? What I'm saying is quite frankly I don't think I don't know why we're here tonight because you know what we're seeing is not in line with what we were asking. I think that's a consensus of opinion. It's about the same. Yeah. So I don't know why we're here. Yeah. It's and again I think it's just to hopefully provide some general direction as to go forward. it it's the architecture is different from what they provide but it is one style essentially um but but Mr. Depot. It's not like Yeah, I think there's certain treatments that lacking that could be included. Um, with the understanding we have three different elevations, but they're facing the same color. How about just the color palette itself? Do you want to react to I don't frankly want to react to anything until we have something that's more consistent from an architectural standpoint with what I think this commission was looking for. And I I guess what I just don't understand why we're even here because you know I think unless memory is serving me incorre please speak up if I'm saying something you know we gave them this as a sense of things and like this is not that or anywhere close to it. You know there's no gingerbread on this at all. It's pretty much a flat surface. I don't see a lot of from what I can tell I don't see a lot of it's not it has none of the aesthetic appealability of what I see here.

I know one thing about this. They got the five windows in the stairwells. I take it is that is it looks it appears to be this appears to be a fivetory building instead of four story because there's extra windows too. Well, that's not that's not what we're proposing. That was what he was saying he wanted it to look like. And you know, I don't know if you recall when we were here the last day, we had a substantially different suburban looking elevation. We were given some direction. I did send Mark before we sent our architect down the path designing the um ele sketches that you're looking at tonight. We did send um elevation of one of the sticks, Mark, and basically said, you know, are we on the right path here? because I don't want to continue to send our architect run down a path. And the indication was we were on the right path. So, you know, we we had her render some things in a couple of different, you know, each one of those buildings there's different elevation options. They we can kind of mix and match them. But Mr. Disney, but did you tell them that we were on the right path? You know, I I think for the first this the first iteration of the three that we were getting, uh once I got the second one, I I commented that they're the same elevations with the exception of the top roof line. One has railings, the other one doesn't. And again, I I was anticipating three. So just one of the options. Um again I think it is something that could have been provided along with the two other that we were anticipating uh for review by the plans earning commission because there could be elements of one design that should that you would like versus what another one might not have that provide that type of feedback as to what blendedness potentially could be to get the final product.

And I mean, you know, you could also, you know, if you found other pictures or other elevations that you've done somewhere else or somebody has done somewhere where you got them, you know, to us, you know, we're not asking you to prepare full architecture renderings, um, you know, designing the inside, but like if you gave us more to react to, um, because this is just like one version on something where I think what what the commission is looking for is you know you spend time on Google or your architect number one your architect should have been looking at this and like coming up with something that's more in line in keeping with this because this is not in keeping with this if I was designing a different footprint or or something it's not the sim same vibe um at all but you know you could also bring other things that you would find on Google and like you know hey does something like this look like along the right line. Um but you know basically you know besides changing you know but besides taking off the the roof pitch and kind of making it more contemporary from the front even the back of the buildings are basically the same as what they were before. Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, the backs of buildings look identical to what we first saw in the beginning. They are very similar. No matter how we slice it, it is a two over two product. And the fronts aren't going to look the backs aren't going to look like the front. They're going to have garages. This is a two over two product. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. This is a two over two product. I haven't seen the back, so I don't know what it looks like from behind. Um, but there I have not seen a town home or a two over two where the back looks identical to the front. I understand if you were building an office building or a an apartment building downtown in the historic district that you may have, you know,

all four sides that look the same because they're flats, but I've not seen a townhouse or two or two with garage, you know, rear loaded where the fronts look like the backs. So, we we tried to do the best we could to change materials, to change up some colors. Um, but if you're saying that we need the back to look like the front, then we got That's not what I That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that what you gave us as a as a elevation is yes, it looks more contemporary, but you know, even the back is no different than what you gave us before. And and what I'm saying is I don't I guess I don't understand like as a planning and zoning commission when we're like show you this and then we get back that it's not even in the same realm of vibe. You know we're trying to give you a sense of direction. We gave you a sense of direction with something, hey, something like this we like, looks attractive to us, and what you gave us is not that, nor have you given us anything else to react to. You've given us three elevations that are basically very much the same except for different coloring. And what we're saying as a planning commission is especially if we're dropping a LMA on top of this property, we want to be happy with the architecture. We want the community to be happy with the architecture. And you know, I'm speaking more than anybody else up here, but everybody else seems to be on the same page with not being happy with the elevations that we have here. And so I think if chairman I think it makes a lot more sense because I don't want to waste our time. I don't want to waste his time. You know, there's no reason that he can't work with Mark and work with you as chair

because we shouldn't be back here until we have something to more to react to. Yeah. And unfortunately I my architect was unable to come tonight. I would love to have her here. Um I believe she's worked and been in front of you guys before. Um Anna White with with Zavos was that architecture. She was on she had a family issue this evening. But unfortunately architecture is very personal interpretive and I did provide her with the photographs and examples that I had here and the feedback about urban but also said we have this site plan and so this is the box that we need to do. That's what she came up with. I I can't really bend if it's much because it was I fed her the information said we want to get this product as close to this deal. Obviously, you don't like it, which is fine, but I, you know, I need her to continue to take a stab at it, but I very much would like to not have to go through this entire process and wait months. I would much rather be able to um work collaboratively and not not do a process. And I I think what we could do and we've done this in the past um once like a product or something's provided to me, I can send it out to the members of the planning zoning commission as individuals, you cannot speak each other just so you have a look and then you can always provide feedback to me which then I can share with the applicant. Um and I think that's the the approach we take as we come with other we have to think of having three three alternatives that are different that we can look at this and three different ones. Hopefully the I thought the backs are pretty plain. I think we I don't the front shouldn't look like the back but it should still have some character to it

and not look like the back. He said, "Look, she'd fit in." Um, I think that's about the best guidance we can provide rather than trying to spend our time reacting to this stuff. I don't want to do it. The only the only thing I was I'm curious about which maybe they give a little more guidance. the the roof the different things on the roof that I've seen I'm trying to remember what we were instructing them to do but there's there are about the false walls you know that when you put them in I don't know if I just thought we have to give some guides on that when you put them in you're not really lowering height you're lowering height if you take if you go in a near flat roof but so I wasn't quite sure if if we gave them these instructions or if that was just one of the things that got signed off. But I I thought maybe we wanted to test that because they'll have it come back with those options if we don't like those. Well, like you know, if you have more of a a roof like this, you can you can lift that up a little bit to hide kind of like what they did on Green Street. But you know, well, that's what I wasn't quite sure because on some of these I couldn't quite tell what they were really what they were really doing on the other than these big side pieces that you could see there, which didn't seem to I think they were trying to minimize the the feeling of of height. Well, it's not even though it's not any lower, it's the instruction, right? Well, all I'm saying is I would maybe if we could it would have been better. Let them know what we what we liked on that. Maybe that would at least save that for being if there was a roof there. My feeling is, you know, a

picture's worth a thousand words. Lee said that we like the vibe of this elevation. So whether the box is different or not, I don't understand why a architect could not look at this and then get give me a variation of that theme based upon whatever the box is. And then on top of that, if there's one or two other ideas, again, we want other things to react to or even if it was a photo, other things to react to to be able to give them, you know, feedback. But it's hard to pay. We can do it as it goes along. We actually have our part of this. I I'll agree with you on one thing. Dealing with architects is like dealing with artists. You can't tell an artist how to do a painting, can you? She's an artist. So to a certain extent I can appreciate that but I think that she has to understand what we're looking for and and give us the alternatives understanding that we were concerned about the and the neighborhood's concerned about the feeling of height. So I think you were trying to make that appear lower. It's not really any lower but it looks that way. Four stories is still going to be four stories no matter how you slice them. We did try to bring the pitches and the gables and things like that down that we were instructed to. We try to get we flat roof like say sh doesn't appear to be that bad. It's just that the height of the angles that just keep that height away. Yeah. And we we tried to remove those. We did try to give it a more urban look. Um this this is a product that's under construction in two projects in Len County. They're not finished yet, but they're soon to be finished. They're in Conor and one Len. um the exact same products. So they're building them now. They're building them

right now. Okay. So if I if you get the addresses to Mark and I drive there, I can actually see them. Absolutely. Okay. And what some in downtown Leburg Louden and Corora. Okay. Right outside of Yeah. both. Yep. So yes, just, you know, the elevations that were provided are very contemporary. Do do you know what I mean? and and um you know when you look at this elevation while it's it's modern looking it does have some traditional elements and and I think that's kind of more in line with as a as a planning commission the vibe that we're looking for this is a little bit it's very flat you know it it's just it doesn't have again you know any of the cornises or any of the there's no traditional elements. If you remember those drawings are exactly where we started history. Yeah. And we work through that to come up with what we came up with. So I guess it's do you understand what we're looking for? sort of trying to trying to take this information in and going back to my architect and saying they don't like this vibe, they like that vibe is very it's a lot of them get lost in translation. But if you said to me here are the elements in this vibe that I like specifically that is a little you know if you gave us something that look a lot more like this I think we're saying that we would like that. Am I not correct? Absolutely. So that's what I'm saying. A picture is worth a thousand

words. If we're saying to you, you know, I think this is pretty attractive. I even like the fact that it has, you know, instead of the one door that you got to go into two separate doors, I kind of like that it has the individual doors for each unit. Is that not correct? How this is is set up. I think that's nice. I think it's attractive looking. I don't remember what the back and I'm saying that, you know, and I don't know what the back of this looks like either, but I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand how the architect can't look at this photo and if we're telling them we really like the architecture of what we're seeing in this photograph. Yeah. Do we have an address for where that building? I I can get it. It's that would be that would be helpful. Yeah. get to them. Can you get it to the planning commission? I'm kind of curious to see if I can send her down there to drive around to answer that question. What does the back look like? What does the class look like? Yeah. Um All right. No, I was just going to say another thing also to help in everything. You have to tell the art that um these are all streamed on YouTube. So like she can watch this one and the last one that I went to so that she can hear the comments that were said from the commission so that you know between what you how you're explaining it and what she hears from the planning commission you guys you know kind of fill in the blanks. And again Mr. Depot can also, you know, if you have some, you know, like let's say she comes up with some photographs. Well, what would they do? They like something that looks like this, you know, or she knows of another project that you could send us a photo. Mr. can email that to us. We just can't have a chain going back. But we can all

individually react back to him to give him a sense because we would like one of the options that you give us when you come back I would hope would be something that would in some ways mimic this. But it could be that that based upon the vibe of this, she goes, "Well, hey, these these are two other options that if they like this, they might like that." Well, you could email those photographs to Mr. Depot. He can get them to us and we can individually respond back, you know, because if you sent us five photographs and the majority of the commission is all saying, "Hey, we like two and four." Then you have a sense of direction and then you're not wasting your time coming back with one, three, and five. You know, there's Mr. D can totally do that. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome to take some of these bigger versions, too. I believe the next item is work session on Wakefield Valley Development Plan amendment DP 2401 parcel W and parcel X. So we haven't this goes back away. We haven't discussed it since I've been on the commission. It's been a couple years. What's this year? I don't I don't know. July. It was July 18th last year. No, Richard was here. Richard was here. Martin was here. We were presenting. If you look at Okay.

You remembered some of the history better than we did. All right. So, oh, we did see this. So, turn to Mr. Deto make some comments. So, again, this is a work session to look at the Wakefield Valley development plan concept for parcel W and parcel X. As you may recall, parcel W is the parcel that's intended to be developed, while parcel X is to be dedicated to Carol Luther Village. Um, that has not changed many of the options that the applicant has provided and they understand that relationship. Um, and the applicant Richard Crest has agreed to to dedicate that portion of parcel X. So, back in October 30th, 2024, you look at Mr. So, so parcel acts is the link to Carol lo. Yes, that's the that's the intent. The intent is to be dedicated and not to be developed. Is there any legal documents that say that or is that just something that has come about through discussion? I that may have been um documented in theou at some point, but there's a there was a letter submitted from Carol Lutheran with our initialation joining in on this request. We've been in contact with them as well in terms of the parcel. So they would take this parcel as as being the B simple owner. They would maintain it. Well, quite frankly, they have to decide what they want to do with it. But we have worked with them to develop the plan that's in front of you because you'll see some active open space components of that or some trail networks and things. And a lot of this is probably going to be a refresh your recollection because it has been several months before we've been since we've been before you on this. But one of the conversations with Carol Lutheran is that they desire to have a gated access such to the to that parcel such that

their residents can access but such that the public cannot then enter onto the greater Carol Lutheran campus. Um because this portion parcel X here will be accessible via the entire public park trail system and can be utilized by uh individuals that live in this neighborhood. Individuals of the park system and then Carol Lutheran village residents could then access it from their actual residences. So the gate would be between the the Carol Lutheran village and Mark Evans. Okay. Yes. It would be kind of up here. see at that at the top. You mean right here? Right here where this top trail. Yes, exactly. On the top trail, they've expressed a desire to have some sort of Yes. But that's been developed with their sort of input in terms of what those on parcel X because that would be Mr. Crest would be putting in those gazeos and the things that are shown on there. But would they would they then own it and maintain it or if they want to? Yes. Either way. open space, but if they want to own it, we want you to give it to them. I think if they're going to own it, they're going to maintain it. Well, that's the thing. So, if they say we don't want to maintain it, then we got to figure out what to do with it. But they if they want to own it, they will own it. And no matter what happens to it, it will remain open space. All right. I know we're getting off the top, but the ideal solution would be that they were going to maintain it. That would be the ideal the ideal city situation. So if you can whoever owns it, we're going to maintain it translation. Well, we will we can communicate that to Carol Luther Phill. Um I intend that they will be a bit more active in this process as we continue the work a work session on this. Um I I expect they'll be more engaged as we go through the public hearing process. Um okay. But the

the bottom line is it's to remain open space. Okay. Got it. All right. I understand where the gate is now. I didn't quite understand that at the beginning. Yes. Right. Mark. So, okay. So, back in October 30th, 2024, we brought this concept of this development proposal before the planning zoning commission. At that time, they were proposing 25 lots. And that is shown um this right here. Um, no actually it's it's actually on page two of the staff. Oh, okay. That was what they were originally for. Yes. And then um then the applicant came back to uh private planning and with the 32 unit option and that is what was on page seven of 14 where they're done from 25 to 32. The primary reason, my understanding, and I think we certainly talked about this, is the cost for the improvements, not only for the roadway improvements, but water sewer connections, the offsite improvements for um for the pad system and also providing a lot of open space as part of that development. Um they had asked staff if they could propose a road width of 22 feet after working with public works and looking at other jurisdictions in the county. The distance of the roadway exceeds what is acceptable to maintain a 22 foot wide roadway. In other words, that would have been parking one side and um that wasn't acceptable to public works if we have to take over the roadway. So um once they were informed about that

uh issue, the applicants then returned with what you see on page eight and this is now an increase to 35 lots and you'll see the new um path drive system and I do believe I provided this to the planning zone commission through an email sim as we discussed before just to get initial feedback. Um, I think the planning commission liked the open space circle area. Um, they weren't very happy and staff also shared this concern too of the houses on the southern side of the property flooding the Wakefield development particularly with the Durban house and the new and the clubhouse renovations and that activity uh impacting these new residential development. So yeah, K um took those concepts and those th those recommendations and provided the fourth option and that is on page nine where the roadway shifts to the to the northern portion of the property and maintain that open space circle area um access to G roads in the same location. You'll see the designs changed a little bit. One of the concerns staff had or request another concern is that uh when you look at this design and you look at Bel Road itself, you see that Belro is currently designed where you know houses front and barrel Fel Road and this doesn't achieve that intelligation that development pattern um because not only to the left of this development you'll see houses fronted on Bell but to the right of it with the future of partial F1 that is going to eventually come from the planning commission. They're proposing houses fronting in Bell. As you go further to the east, you have a newer developments again with houses

fronting on Bell. Um I think this is a way that the advocate could pick up additional units along Bell and potentially widen some of the lots behind it um to get some of the the goal of what they intended to do initially at a little bit larger of a boom product. It could possibly provide two options could work. The ones on fail could be a little bit smaller while the ones behind um could possibly be a little bit larger. There was concern about sight distance uh staff is fine if the the access to those ones on Bell again if the applicant acceptable to this don't need to access Bell. They could have a common access drive behind them. It's something we typically don't do, but these lots will be fronted on Bell Road. So, they also have frontage, but then there's common access behind for access and that would only be because of sight distance. And again, the hope would be um you know, they get a larger product again like they initially envisioned with their with the first uh project. Um again, they go from 25 to 35 with this option. uh stab is not overly concerned with the density. Again, if you look back at the history and what we mentioned the last time, it's still an increase of 10 units is still less than what the original density and unit count was initially envisioned for this windfield in can a little bit more if they like, but I think we we went over that pretty well last time. That's that's still not exceeding what the initial density was when this first. Um, and that's and that's all we have. So again, it's a work session. Hope you provide feedback to the applicant and maybe get some updates from the applicant as well and I'm available for any questions. So we're just reaching into

the bag and grabbing 10 units add to this project. Right. Yes. under the guise that in the past because of changes in plans that there was this bag of units someplace that we never got to the max on for the overall project that was approved back in 1979. You mean well okay so you're going to density units for the overall Wakefield plan. Yeah. So the overall weight I just want to be clear that we're not we're within that. Yes. Yes. The first the original development plan of 1978 had a total of 768 density units included in that plan. With our 35 units, the entire Wakefield development plan will have a total of 643 density units. So we will be drastically still under what was anticipated in the 1978 plan. Okay. All right. So, um, one of the question is, what is the lot size? I couldn't find it anywhere what these size lots are. That's an excellent question. And I I will say that Marty Hackett came down with the stomach flu this evening. We certainly don't want him that we all agree with that. But he did say he would be available by phone if I I was able to try to give him a call. We did we chatted Richard and I have chatted with him before. Um, so he he said be happy to to Yeah. If you'll get on the phone, you know what that you know the acreage the lot acreage. I know we talked about the lot width. The lot width on vary between 88 ft and 100 105 ft. few of them are the 88 ft. Marty shared with us that about six of them. Well, the depth is pretty consistent. You have

the other dimension. No. just I did also I would also like to say that depending on how tonight's conversation goes, we do anticipate presenting a plan that uh has more of the technical components like first saw back in July. I chatted with Marty about that tonight. We have the public hearings, but I can certainly get phone call and see or even let's text. I think the I think the um the concern I have isn't over the number. I knew the answer to the question when I asked it, but I wanted you to tell everybody and then go to the order. But I guess the it looks to me like it's crowded. Okay. I I think getting it back away from the city's renovation work and stuff down where the clubhouse is is good. I think that's pushing it back is good. But I think that with that 35, I think if you if you did do some lots along Bell Road, you might be able to get three or four or five houses in there. It might give you some more flexibility on the rent to kind of I you know, Wakefield Valley has some beautiful lots. Yes. And and I don't know that this necessarily matches up with what when you say Wakefield Valley. I'm not sure this meets that standard in my opinion. In terms of the lot size. Yes. Okay. And just to be clear again, I know that it's almost close to a year. So I forgive everyone if if forgotten some of the details. Um and Richard can speak to the to the homes themselves, but we do anticipate that these will be very high-end homes that get constructed out here. Uh, you want to give us similar to Stonegate or more expensive than Stonegate? More than Stone Gate still starting at 750,000.

I I think these homes will be 800 to over a million with these lot sizes. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I can believe it. Yeah, Kelly. I drew since this a work session interactive. I just No. Yes. So, so one of the thoughts I had is I understand what Mark's, you know, saying though at the same time if I were a developer, I would kind of want to kind of I don't know that I would want these facing totally front because then the rear yard is facing the side of that. Do you understand what I mean? So, I get that. But that doesn't mean that when you get to, you know, lot one and whatever this lot is 35, that you couldn't have a slight angle to kind of make it so that it kind of opens an ent it kind of opens into the road to kind of pull people in and it's a way of kind of, you know, getting a halfway mark with that. So I think it might be a nice point. That's I I think that would be a smart thing to do. The other thing is I do think Mark might have a point and you got to verify sight distances and all of that. Um because I drove out there and I I I know that depending on where you are, you could have issues with sight distance, but but to me it might not be a bad idea to have a lot or two along here that just would face along Bell Road, right? And those could be nice lots as well. They're they're front along Bell Road admittedly, but nice lots. But then potentially you could still get your 35 lots in. But but I don't disagree that, you know, some of these lots, you know, seem like, you know, when I look at it from here, don't seem that bad. But then there's some places where it's like really feels scrunched in. Exactly. And and I think that I don't think there is they will be as scrunched as you're as

you're looking at it. These will all be sideloaded. I'm saying visually from what I'm seeing right now, it, you know, it looks scrunched in compared to some of the other blotss that I'm looking at here. So, what I'm saying is, you know, if you got two over here, it just I feel like it needs a little bit of breathing, but these lots like in my hand, they look more crowded than than I hear you. Yes. Now to to what Mark I think was saying and just to clarify Dan um if site distance can't be achieved off Bell Road what Mark was suggesting would be a private drive that would access offerior road these would still be front facing to Bell Road but then there'll be a private drive that would go into the rear you could put in you could put in a strip there and and come in and have you know yeah you could totally do something like that I don't know that you have with the way this road is coming out. I'm assuming it's coming out of here because you're tight on sight distance. Um that you probably can't squeeze something in here because it would be too tight. Yeah. What Marty and I chatted a bit about this because he had chatted with Mark about this and he kind of felt like this is where they were appropriate to do. You can't do it by number. Right. Right. Yeah. And the entrance has to be pretty much where So, and a couple other things because I know this is early stages. A couple other things that I'm going to really want to know is how all these trails are tying in. You know, who's maintaining this trails as the HOA because you have these old existing trail here. So, what's that going to look like? Are you, you know, what is the landscaping going to look like? What other elements are you putting in there for this open space? cuz all these

trails tie back into here and obviously you're going to have people from you know potentially people from the public walking in there too obviously but I want I think for all of us it's going to be really important to understand what are these trails are remaining who is maintaining them what other additional is like there a park bench is there you know what is going to be there same thing for the piece that Carol Lutheran village would be getting how that's going to be who's maintaining it, what elements are going to be there. Pretty large hillside here. Yeah. But it's got but I think there people may want to enjoy fishing and all if they're act if they're kept up some it's just it's going to be important for us to have clarity on what you're proposing there. The other thought is, if I were doing this, I know you haven't gone that far, is, you know, I think you're definitely going to want to do some landscaping around here to kind of buffer these guys. Yes, I assume that there will be subject to the landscape standards there. And I did just want to say about about this because if you recall one of the well you might not recall but in July one of the things that you liked was that the previous plan wrapped around this large existing um patch of trees like these are very mature pine trees that exist out there. So you're going to keep those Yes. Exactly. by moving this this way. We've not only kept those, but now that is a Yes, that's a Richard question because I never played it very well. So, yeah. So, so to answer your question for now, yes, there will certainly be landscaping there. In addition to the existing natural features out there,

which right now, especially on this side, serve as if you if you take a drive out there, which most of you probably have been out to the park. Um, that's an incredibly dense and and I don't think they want to change that. Well, it is a cliff, too. 15. I just I just think if you can do some of this stuff at Bell, I think it'll give you the ability to kind of, you know, that that would be fine. Yeah. If you want I mean, it's only going to be two, three homes, but that would make a big difference if you squeeze three there and then not everybody's going to have a little line or fence. Everybody doesn't put a fence in your house. Well, yeah. It would look more open. Everybody This will be a beautiful I definitely like that is pulling away because that one version where you had the backyards here. I just No, this is better. Yes. I I think this is just a lot smarter. Um Right. And I would I think it's good that they went with the wider room because I find more and more people have more and more cars and not enough garage people. The good thing about this is this is going to be sideyard garages. Okay. See how and they'll be there'll be threecar garages could be even fourcar garages. And so really yeah and per two to four well depends on what what someone wants but whatever. Okay. Okay. six. So, but yes, but

22 feet of Well, and you know the the examples of 22 feet that I've worked on are predominantly counter county projects and it restricts parking on on one side with a 30 foot wide road as Marty points out to us and speaking with him before this meeting and preparing. Um that's ample room for there not to have to be parking restrictions out there and if they needed to they could park on the street but there will be So these will be 30 this is 30. Um and so but there will be ample like for a regular use or 30 ft wide. So it's not 25 it's 30. Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's even better. Yeah. Yeah. That allows for two-way traffic plus parking. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And I do like the I know that some of the original plan showed you know that long separate road which was very neat. I understand why from a cost standpoint that might not have been the most um efficient. Um but I definitely I I kind of do like the circle and I do like this being a park. This could be, you know, if this is done right with some trees and you it looks like you have some walkways there and some benches. It could be like, you know, how Belro Square is, which is just beautiful to have an area like that. If I were living in that community, I would want to be along here. Well, the nice thing about a park there is the fact that everybody sees it, right? It's very visible. And if something is going on that's not supposed to, it's going to be Well, it's very visible. And it also serves as like a natural buffer between the you know it's nice to look at your house and see some greenery too. So it'll provide that nice that park could be beautiful done right. You have some walkways some park benches and plant plantings. He says there's some benches proposed in here. He's got a gazebo at the

center and connected walkways as well. Yeah. So I have a question on the storm water. So you have rights uh question. Yes. But I assume I assume that because it's shown there off property that that there's some Yes, there's a storm management right to use. There's an easement that exists today for storm management intended for this property. So yes, that does exist. Will there have to be any any I mean obviously the facility is not there now, right? No. So it'll have to be constructed. Yes. Yes. Marty shares with me that this plan is showing 14 uh,000 to 18,000 square foot lots. But just so you know sort of like the history of when I acquired the golf course and it we had excess land over here storm water management and down here and I needed this extra land because I felt like it was the correct thing to do to have the the city controlling that. So, you know, we did that. It could have helped this person density, but but it wasn't really the the the right thing to do. And what Richard's kind of going back to is the originalou which most of you are probably this is where generally you had stonegate which had no water but you worked a deal out with the city who transfer the park which allowed you then to have water for the project and then told me he said why don't you buyfield valley I thought he was nuts. No, it was a good time. I mean, this was way before, right? That

Yeah, you know. Well, on that train, Richard, I do want to cut this parcel here. That's the only one that you Right. Yes. This is what you what Richard got the parcel down the street that I think is going to be developed as well. Yeah. Up there. Yes. Um, and the I guess important part of theou for your purposes and kind of relevant to the staff report is that Richard still has all of the water rights necessary to do this development without meeting any additional allocation because from the stone gate and this property acquisition, he still has 60 units um of water. Yeah. and I have given to the city when they needed it some some of that excess thing. So, you know, this is very this goes back even when I was still around. I was a long time ago. 2001 contract this you and Yeah. So, anyway, We're sort of proud of this. This is going to be a great addition uh to the city. The these houses will be special. Uh won't be a lot of parking on the street because there there there's ample room in the driveways. It it'll have a great look to it. Um but when you said side loaded, explain what that means because I'm not quite sure I fully understand. Instead of instead of having way. There's a garage in the front. You'll see the garage for the street. You won't see it on the street. It's on the side of the house.

That's how old. Oh, okay. So, so, so these I would like pull up and then Yeah. Turn it. So, I don't see these freaking garage door, right? Larger develop when you have bigger lots, you tend to see, right? It also increases the you know it's funny I grew up in Biceville area Gordon Sugar who built the community and he had some front yard garages you know facing the street and he would drive down and if you had your garage door open right see it he would go back on the door he says he says you can't have garage. So I I grew up with that in my in in my head that that we're not going to have that. So, so happy job to drive down. So, the the these these could be uh well, they're going to be three yard three uh parking garage spaces at least and it could be four depending on on what it is. And and then there will also be room for people, guests to come and park off the street. you come on on in there. So, we're we're we're real excited about this and and we just think it's going to be a great addition. You know, these these will be million dollars. I I just hope you can you can uh I hope I live make the make the lots with with your 35 units. Make the lots as big as you can. Understood. That's all. don't have a problem with the 35 lots. They like to see I didn't I didn't

really realize that you wanted to have some more houses along the road which which is no problem and and that will kind of it also kind of creates a a buffer from the open space too. You know what I mean? I just I think it's not a bad idea to have have a couple of those little slots along the road and it to blends in the your new project with what's there. You know what I mean? Now, admittedly, I would totally understand with the the main road, as I said, I think you angle it somewhat because if I were you, I would not want to be perpendicular because then it creates a problem for the next house in. So, I think if you have a slight angle, it just it it's a way to kind of open the street up into it and and you know, it's a a halfway point. Um I just want to understand processwise. So I feel like this needs to come back to us, you know, to kind of further refinement. Um and and sooner rather than later, not like, you know, six months while it's fresh in our mind. Yes. You know, update the the design, kind of give us some more of that that detail that we're looking for with the open space. It would be even nice for Carol Luth to be out to kind of explain it because what my point is is at that point then it goes to public hearing on the planning commission level. Is that not correct? We would set it to public hearing on planning commission development plan. Yes. Yeah. So before it goes to public hearing, I want to make sure the planning commission feels very very comfortable with what's being proposed and that we understand exactly what's being proposed before it goes out to that public hearing on the planning commission level. Understand? I think we can get those answers. And I think the other thing that would be handy to have

is um you know some representation of what's some examples of what those houses could look like. Do do you understand what I mean? Uh because I think that would be helpful because I imagine there are going to be community members out there that are going to want to know, you know, what this is going to look like. And I think the more pretty pictures you have to kind of put everybody's mind at ease of what's being planned um you know the better off you are. We will absolutely have those and we will also have additional um technical people with us to address topic specific questions address any sort of comprehensive planning specific questions. Um and last time 2016 I think um when we went through this what we actually did and Marty did it was he prepared um renderings like view sheds like from here this is how it will look from here and I anticipate that we'll show something similar obviously you know we because you really don't see it and that was kind of the point many many moons ago um but we we will come with all of those. But so I think what I'm hearing is a suggestion is we prepare a more technical plan like was first submitted. Um get that in and then come back to you for kind of just a followup work session along these lines with some of those answers. And then we come for a public hearing with a full presentation that includes some of those more architectural level components. And um and then all the comments and and yes and then we as a planning commission after that public hearing there might be some give and take depending on what that public hearing is. we can. So, by the time it what I would prefer is by the time it makes it to the mayor and

council that it's been really refined well because that'll make it much easier on that level. I will tell you for instance like the green street project, you know, we did a lot of work on this level. By the time it went to the mayor and common counsel, it was pretty easy because because every, you know, it was obvious to the rest of the the mayor and common counsel that the planning commission and the applicant had put a lot of work in and and when you prepared the report, you showed them like the different reiterations and it was really easy for them to see the progress and all of that. So they didn't get, you know, stuck in the weeds that you get, you know, tied up on the mayor and common counsel level. Yes. Um, understood. And our full goal is to go to mayor and council with a favorable recommendation from this commission. You know, obviously after going through the public hearing, that's that's always our goal. Um, and we will be prepared for that. The public hearing because this is the amended development plan is a bit more technical in nature in terms of showing you how we meet open space and all of that. So, we will present and have all of that data available to you. It's in the staff report and some of it, you know, we will present as well because a lot of it, like Tom quizzed me on at the beginning of this, it's just saying here's the old plan, here's what was approved on the Wakefield development plan, here's our plan, here's why this still is in line with that. And then at a do we like this or do we not level that's you know I think most of tonight's conversation recognizing well and there is a lot of additional open space that's going to be able to be used by the public. Yes. The Carol Lutheran space is going to be able to be used by the public. It ties into existing park. there's a lot to things to be attracted because I I saw in the report was the plan from whenever that had more housing on it and that didn't have a lot of open

space that was kind of maximizing out that that um parcel. So, you know, I think from a community standpoint, there's certainly benefit and and the reality is the world's a little bit different right now. Um yes, people are concerned about, you know, whenever something's being developed around them. Um but also I I think the majority of the people recognize that we need more housing. You know, now admittedly this is very high housing. This is not this is not doing anything for the affordability crisis of housing, but that doesn't mean that you know having more housing of all types is not a bad thing. Yes. Um so you know um so it's a little bit of a different world than what it was when this was last coming coming around. I I feel the same and I'm hopeful that we'll see the same through this process. We'll be prepared for, you know, any questions and and concerns that come in that regard. Um the original contemplated Richard putting 70 units on this. Um as he kind of outlined, then he gave additional acreage to the city with the park because he just didn't think it really resulted in the best concept plan. That's when then it came down to the 53 units that came before not you all but a different commission and a different council back in 2016 and now we're down to 35. So it's going through I mean independent of just this exercise where staff kind of outline the iterations and the staff report like separate from that it's gone through several iterations and I I sort of ground you saying that it's time were you planning it God bless your soul you need your Parcel

H where a family farm is. Yes. Developer had originally 167 to 214 units. At the developer's request, they were we reduced that down to Y. So I know right there there's access units. Yeah. That never went above never were used elsewhere. Yes. That's that's why when I was That's a question you always have to be ready to answer because that's why it matches. That's what people say. You should have a lot of history on this. Some of you and most of you might remember when Marty Hill came in with a village concept for 300 out here and and was denied. That was that was the most recent plan, the 2016 plan. I don't know all the history. I know that there's been a lot of history You remember that, don't you? But this doesn't feel like there is an unders. Yes. Okay. Any just everybody know has a history on this and probably they do but not when Mark Eisner told me he says you know where all all the water is on the golf course and I looked at him I said are you crazy you want me to buy a golf course right that so I can de develop a little piece of of the property right right you golfer. So, uh, he was one. This is like I looked at course that was before and all that stuff or golf wasn't doing as well because that's why the

golf course had to close because it wasn't but I think this is this has really worked out great city and Oh, Wakefield is a great uh benefit in the long run for the city. Oh my god. Yeah, that'll be a big legacy project. I know Richard was always a gentleman to deal with and always upfront and honest and that always meant a lot to me. So, he tells me something. I I believe I'm really excited that this probably won't be one of the last developments that I do, but this is going to be something that the city will be proud of and and the help that you can give me on this is is appreciated. Do you mind if I take this little Let me just take a picture of it so I remember what the heck I can give it back. I will forget. There's two two other things I just want to bring out. Well, Mr. Viva, you said there's two other things. Two other things. uh counting the traffic impact study was for 25 has to be updated 35 and also we'll be asking for sidewalk and bell road right now from Indian town along Bell you have sidewalk the Fendi farm partial one will have sidewalk and it'll connect to this one so we just want to continue the sidewalk along Bell I know wasn't an issue with the applicant just not shown on the plan okay just yeah I Okay, Marty. Yeah, it was just it just for the rendering it just not showing. Okay. Was there anything else? That was it. Those are the two things. Thank you for your feedback. Yes. Thank you. Thanks

for coming. Well, this feedback was easier than last. Yeah, we have to listen to very much. I look forward to seeing you soon. Okay, thank you. Next item is on the board. Um, I don't have that many updates at all. I just have a couple. Um uh the uh fall 2024 water and sewer amendments uh approved as of uh February 13th and February April 22nd. So that's done now. Uh spring 2025's amendment. It tonner um master plan updates. Uh we now have started our work group sessions. Um we have three different work groups. There's agriculture, economic development, and housing. Um those just began last week. Um each group will have seven meetings um with one adjoining uh meeting uh the fourth meeting. Um, do you have any do you have any questions about the work groups? My only question is more in terms of the meeting we were supposed to have. Yeah. Have that meeting? We will. It just hasn't been extended yet. It's not going to be this month, I hope. No. No. Okay. Oh, great. Great. Yeah. Just make sure we have plenty of notice because I think a lot of us would like to be there for that meeting, but we don't want to find out about it like three days ahead of time. We'll talk. We'll reach out to that thing about it. We're supposed to present in front of

the county planning. Yeah. It's just about the city of Westminster talking about like the issues for your master plan kind of the perspective of the city on housing these other topics as you guys are working on your master plan. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's at that meeting. Okay. Okay. Any questions? I did want to point out so the work group she's mentioning I I was invited to be on the economic development work group and Eric Brown the director of housing was asked to be on the housing work group. So we do have city involvement and input for that. So um also the water resources element is being almost finished being drafted and that's part of the county uh master plan and where all of the municipalities are incorporated in that. So um most likely in July or August I'll be doing a presentation for you guys about that. But it is something that you will have to essentially certify the information um and then they put it together and it's a just an element of the plan that they give to uh Maryland Department of Planning on behalf of all of us. I just have one, it's not really related to this, but at some point in the near future, is it possible that we could get an update on the facility that's in the work? What you what do you call your water facility? Peer water reuse. Water reuse. Yeah, absolutely. It might be good to kind of get an update on that because I've never I'm not that familiar with it. I don't know. That would be great to do. I know it's not going to be construction will not be done until the end of 2027. That's what the paper said to what Mona said. Yeah. Yeah. End of 2027. But that's that's really critical for the community here to to have the water for

development. Now, we still have water allocation available. plenty of water allocation available. So yeah, we have we No, we Yeah, we have close to I want to say 150,000 gallons of water available for new development. Maybe it's a little less than that. A little less than that, but generally speaking, where it was 18,000, we got a bump up with the gazelle well. So we have plenty of water for development. That's why I think you're seeing this inflow of potential developments knowing that that was going to happen. Um and then obviously the wastewater uh program it will give us what 500,000 gallons water reuse. Water re I'm sorry water yes 500,000 gallons of water per day. So that'll set the city for a long and the treatment plans are okay. And in theory in theory the hope is if it's successful um it you could go higher than that. You would have to get additional permitting for that. once we establish it. But the point of the matter is it will buy us a lot more time and a lot more ability to continue to do like redevelopment and new stuff because I think there's a lot of desire among council for particularly for Main Street um to continue to see you know like a more redevelopment you know like you know for instance I don't know like the where coffeey's music is Like let's say someone wanted to come in and they had a really great use for the bottom floor um and maybe they wanted to put in some high-end condos but they needed an extra whatever 2,000 gallons of water. Well, years ago that might have been a real nightmare.

Now we have that and I think we want to continue to see I mean we were Yeah, we were so jammed up for a while. I only know this cuz cuz he complains to me sometimes. Getting a barber shop open with one chair. This is crazy. This is going to give the city the opportunity to have higher density development in the right places to have good like the mall is going to be a prime is a prime piece of property. I don't know what it should be there, but it's a prime piece of property. not the building that's there piece of property and location. And I think you will likely see something happen there over the next 5 10 years. It's a it's a question of timing for them because they have certain leases. They have certain leases in effect and then it's a question of of them coming up with a plan that you know we as a city would be happy with. But you have you have alone 27 which is kind of in the city and then goes into the county that whole other is just conglomeration of these old buildings which none of them have any kind of highest and best use. Yeah. You could really create a nice quarter. Well, and like McDaniel would be thrilled if there was and I would be thrilled as a member of council to have, you know, some sort of hotel that it's like, you know, kind of a old historic vibe, something like that because that would be great for for McDaniel because if I was a parent coming in for a weekend, I could stay right down at that hotel and I could walk along Main Street. or also when you're having these strolls, you know, instead of people coming in for the strolls and leaving, you know, they could make a weekend of it. So, there's just so many the water

will allow us the ability to pursue more of these kind of things happening. You have to create Westminster to be successful has to be what I call a two shift town. 8 to 4 when people work, 4 to 12 when people come to play, to eat, to go to entertainment. You you have to have people there. Yeah. If people aren't downtown, you're not going to have Where's not a problem if they get your name back on Exactly. People have to know that when you come to Westminster, we have water and really sell that message. We make that statement everywhere we go. But you're right. We need to get that treatment plan. And now I was shaking my head. Yeah. is that yes. So it was always had more it always had more capacity than what we were allowed for water um appropriation through MDE and with the INI project uh inflow and infiltration where we're fixing the uh so much water was getting to the sewer pipes through infiltration and inflow that that was overworking the uh the sewer plate. So that capacity and nutrition capacity significantly to keep the ground water out from getting in through the joints and they do a lot of the lining of the of the pipes. That's significantly decreased. Um and we're continuing to do that every year. That's we just continue to do water leak tests every year. They do test every year. Lots of televising also of all the lines to make sure you know if it's something that maybe we just don't know about yet. So, I'm really excit I mean I we're really excited for what the future holds for Westminster because I think we have the opportunity over the next 10 years to do some really cool things. And what's nice for this planning commission, we'll get to see more, you know, more things as time goes

on, you know. I mean, even out at the uh like where the hotel has out there, Best Western, all that property was set is owned by the college. Yeah. And they had this idea in mind when they built it. They put the hotel right up on the road. Most places, they don't do that with hotels. They kind of put the hotel down. So, at one point in time, they had a plan to actually relocate the hotel and have something more like high-end commercial up there. Hotel is now and kind of put the put the hotel down in that lower area, but they they had a lot of plans. They they still have that possibility that they could do things. Yeah. Maybe not that, but other development stuff. Well, and I also think that um you know, I'll I'll commend planning staff on this is in recent years, I think we've been better about some of the architecture um when things get done and redeveloped. Um and I think that helps to draw in, you know, higher higher end stuff and kind of set expectations. And it just it quite frankly just looks nicer, you know, where the the sprouts went. I mean that that is a nice it's a strip center but it's a nice strip center. Um and it has some nice uses of it. It has some good post. Yeah. But you start drawing that in and the thing is you start the more you draw that in even I I know it sounds uh silly but the Barnes & Noble you know that coming in is even a big deal because that will draw other things. It just opens up those opportunities. Well, commercial follows income and rooftops. The more rooftops you have and the higher the incomes, you're going to draw stuff, correct? That's what draw and the higher it is,

you get the more higher end commercial. Well, and also some people tend to follow each other. Like once true somebody once somebody like oh well maybe we can do maybe they're ready to do that, you know. Um I always get frustrated. I'm sure maybe you've had the same feeling at times is is you know like in my mind I think like if you had a Trader Joe's in Westminster I think it would do very well cuz it's not just about Westminster would draw from a lot of other places. Um but like the demographics supposedly don't work for Trader Joe's because that's what they have in their mind not understanding what a draw you know because I grew up in New Windsor. Where did everybody go to shop? Westbuster, you know. Um, so, you know, with us being right in the center, you know, we draw more than what we draw than ourselves. When I think of when I think of a really successful downtown, I think of Frederick. Have you been to Frederick? Had places like hopping all the time, restaurants and stuff to do. That's if you ever could get to that something like that. And I don't want to be I don't want us to be Frederick but yeah being our version of Westminster version of but like you said the it's the residential component of downtown Frederick that feeds into that and now it's new and the new development happening in downtown and close in proximity to downtown even along east street. Yes I can record it but you have a huge development and it is a good distance from downtown but you see people walking and biking that distance everywhere. Exactly. Because it's so that residential component which I think this water that we're getting with these projects we're hopefully seeing that that'll increase that residential base downtown and and

further people living downtown will drive all the other stuff. Yep. Well, I know I live right we we walk we'll walk down to the loss line. We'll walk down the collision course. We'll walk down the Johansson's because Yeah. you enjoy walking and the more that we can get some of those residential that's why like you know place of coffee if you had you know depending on what somebody wants to do there having some more residential units up above would be great you know if they can make the numbers work but it needs that building needs I mean Westmin is very attractive there was a house just this week that came available on on Bond street 28 bond 300 80,000. It was sold within a day. Nice house. Nice. I missed that. It was gone within a day. I missed that one. Okay. I did. Yeah. I didn't market. I really liked it, but I didn't. Yeah. All right. Okay. Any anything for any other comment? While we're looking backwards of the things that we kind of seen for a long time, I'm just curious about the Chick-fil-A at the Oh, I haven't heard anything about gate. Yeah, it's still happening. So, the roadway design for Mark Street Extended has been conceptually accepted from the county for design. So, the engineering for that, I think, is almost complete. stormwater management. There's still some elements of stormwater management that needs to be corrected. So that you'll be seeing that shortly, I think. Um, basically from the city standpoint, they've addressed staff's comments. We're waiting on these other elements that we hold up projects for. Like anybody else, we need concept storm management approval, concept forest conservation approval, and for this one

in particular, approval of that roadway um in the county because the is the Chick-fil-A actually in the city or the county? It's in the city. Okay. But the tree streets where there's been some concern about what's happening there is in the county, right? And when and when we look at that and hopefully we express that to the applicant um because there's been a lot of concerns and now some of those concerns might not be valid but some of those concerns might be valid. I think we as commissioner want a really good understanding of how that traffic flow or what's being proposed and how everything interconnects is going to impact the the tree streets so that we we are comfortable you know with that. So hopefully the applicant knows that you know even though that's in the county I I think as a commission we're going to be sensitive to to you know what that actually does. I want I want real information. I don't want somebody's conjecture. Either that be the applicant saying, "Oh, well, everything will be fine." Or that's somebody who lives in the neighborhood who's like, "This is the worst thing ever. I I'm I'm going to want some data for us to hang our hat on." Yes. I'm I'm going to want some good data that we as a planning commission feel very comfortable. At the end of the day, what you hope and pray for is that that extended road is actually going to stop people correct from cutting through the tree streets. Yes. So, we should be able to demonstrate because if that's the case that it isn't an improve because this is what the people really complained about. Yes. I mean, people do it now on old Baltimore. Yeah. If I go to Chipotle and I'm going to come back into town, I go down, turn, and then go. I just I do it now. Yeah. But I

understand. Yeah. But I think this extended road will I would just keep going down in the circle and go. I wouldn't Yeah. I think that's how I would do it. Absolutely. I wouldn't do it anymore. But I we're going to want as a planning commission someone clearly demonstrate that to us. Yeah. There have to be a really good traffic study that that that provides some good data. Yeah. because I'm sure there's going to be we know there's going to be some people. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Anything else? I think you good. You good? You good? True. All right. Without objection. into.