Westminster Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

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e e this Planning Commission maying the order I have a statement I have to read for the record statement for the record closed meeting of Thursday December 19th 2024 in accordance with the general Provisions article section 3-36 C2 of the annotated code of Maryland and without objection it is noted that the minutes of tonight's meeting reflect that Planning and Zoning commission met in a closed meeting Thursday December 19 2024 at 6:54 p.m. pursuing the general provision article section 3-30 5 B7 to consult with legal with Council to obtain legal advice um the next item is the approval of the EV of September 19th make a motion to approve Mo to approve to approve the minut of SE 19

seconded there any questions all in favor say I I iose no nice car our next item of business we have a public hearing on ordinance number 20 25-3 cannabis overlay District it's an ordinance of the mar Council common Council of Westminster adopting a sectional map Amendment SMA 25 a01 to amend the boundaries of the canabas AR district for the purpose of establishing the appropriate location for the designation of cannabis overlay floting on permitted permitting the operation of cannabis businesses in the city I'll turn it over to Mark the list thank you just say some background information excuse um might recall the city you said was called a medical cannabis overlaying the statement since legislation to create the adult cannabis the city back in September 25 20123 mayor common Council adopted an ordinance where we removed the medical cannabis overlay and created what is now the Cannabis overlay district and that District reduced in size at that time when you did the transfer um currently there two dispensaries in the city today one's at one is the dispensary at 33040 bill Ro and the other one is very white dispensary at 700% of Court the uh owners of the dispensary at 330140 Village uh submitted a request to extend the Cannabis overl District to a parcel that um to the parel you can see

the start area the Cannabis overlay being added to it this is next to the sheets on 140 and you can see the Cannabis already existing across the street District so which're is adding the requests to add that parcel uh into the Cannabis overlay District hence the need for the sectional M sectional map Amendment because the district is more than one parcel that that it overlays at the same time um the city as this project was introduced to the mail and common Council on January 27th of the city was looking at removing the portion of cannabis overy District that is now over top the 330140 village uh roadway site so the dispensary is located now the goal is they want to move for this new location 140 hence the need to add the Cannabis overlay on that coressel and the goal was to remove the canab Sur District where they're currently located so reducing in one section adding in another um and that's how was introduced to Mayor common Council however at the meeting um and the attorney for the applicant is here requested that we reconsider the concept of removing the overlay District at the 330140 Village site um the M primary reason for that is that if the sale and move to the new location doesn't go through or something happens they don't want to fall into a non-conforming status because that might throw in some issues with um you know expansions and other things so and the mayic council seem to be accepting that concept so even though we advertised the addition on 140 and the reduction of the can cannabis at 330140

Village Road what staff is proposing today is only to move forward with the addition of the partial um adding that property estat 07774 into the can overly district and that's the previous one and not moving forward at this time with the reduction so it just blesses the two current sites and adds another site it just it just add again so in other words the current site right now it's existing they're not affected um this would just add this property to the Cannabis overlay district and all and and the applicant has no issues if the city wants to in the future once the move does happen to come back and remove that section so staff was comfortable with that as well and what we're asking is that the Planning Commission consider amending the ordinance as um introduced and it's not amending the ordinance the language of the ordinance is not being amended solely the exhibits to the ordinance the instead of two exhibits we just we're just offering one exhibit exhibit a and that's would be this this um this map here and with that uh we're asking that again the pl Zing commission recommend approval of ordinance 20252 exhibit a as providing and staff report I'm available for any questions Mr chair uh I apologize I was coming from another meeting for being late uh Mr Depot the one thing that in my mind the area that we're adding um to me I know we're just adding that specific property but there's so little additional area to me it just when I look at the knowing the whole overlay Zone I kind of think everything that's in red on that picture should just be added to the overlay Zone um am I wrong

for thinking that just from a a look standpoint because it's kind of odd because you know our overlay zone are two larger pieces and just for consistency I kind of feel like that whole area that's in red should be in the overlay Zone I don't think there's any issue with that this is the basically the end of the city adding those two properties I don't again you have a distance requirement for dispensaries it would open up for other type of cannabis uses um growing and processing but dispensaries themselves have a distance requirement so you couldn't have two dispensaries on each parcel so that's already a gas station there anyway so by adding that yeah I don't see it I just think a clean standpoint it looks kind of odd to just have this single parcel where you know it's right on the tail end of a larger Zone I feel like it should be the whole Zone just to make it clean so I I would like to see us do that if possible at the same time as we keep keep that area on no the only issue with that is that we advertise as advertise we didn't include that Jason parel so I think I'd have to ask the attorne I I think we'd have to come back forward re advertise showing that PR so is being added to the Cannabis overly District yeah when when you expand what's been advertised you have to start the process over again um you can always make it smaller but when you enlarge that would require a new advertisement oh it would yes what about the fact that we're not removing that we were advertising that we're removing but we're not removing that does that create an advertising issue or not no because we because we should we advertise both these maps on to be shown to the public so the Public's fully aware of what their intent is and we Define those areas um as long as we're maintaining the defined

area that's all we're talking about it's fine if we don't want to move forward it's fine we don't want to peel away the overlay Zone ex over top of the existing that does not trigger re advertising that's correct okay now what we could do and I what I would recommend is if the move does happen and we do consider going back to reduce the overlay District I I think we should certainly look at then adding this at the same time I don't want it's not it was just a no so this is more not so much about the zoning the map we say but this so I understand so medical now you're a canabus dispensary there is no medical versus non-medical yep there is so if you wanted to be a medical dispensary only we still have to I don't believe you can more in the state I think you're you're you're adult use you can still sell Medical but you have to also sell adult you can't you can't make that distinction anymore all right any any other questions from commission members at this point Mr Depot do you have anything further I have nothing further now thank you okay I have a sign up sheet here the first is um Stephanie broy I assume that's chair members of the Planning Commission you see Mr how are you um yes I'll be brief because I just want to speak in support of everything staff is recommending including the amendment meaning we retain the overlay District applicable to the exis 140 Village shopping center where the sensory operates add parcel um the parcel out there next to Sheets um I appreciate what Mr H said as well but we are on a time constraint here and read advertising would be materially problematic for us because we're a contract purchaser on that property working within certain time

frames so we support you guys recommending favorably to the mayor and common council with subject to what we discussed about keeping the um existing overlay at 140 but your intent is entally to move out of that location the plan is um right to have a standalone building on the new parcel out there on 140 but one this whole process assuming it's successful and the mayor and common Council does go ahead and pass the sectional map Amendment doing what we're discussing today we still have an entire new petition that we have to file that we will be going in presenting and going to the entire site development process so everything has to be approved so we have a big there's a lot of question marks ahead of us um but yes that's the plan is to move out there I know it's a busy place I'll say that much not go by there a lot lot of cars back there well it seems like a better place than where we are right now all right any questions all right I don't um see anybody else specifically listed for this hear this hearing is there anybody else that would like to offer comments we locked the door before they could get in any any further comments from the commission members at this point all right so we'll consider the public hearing at this point Clos and um leave the record open for any any period of time for any comments anybody would want to make I don't believe so okay all right close the public hearing and and we'll move on to the next item on the agenda do we have to make a recommendation I think that's the next yeah we're asking toate on recommendation

here in close recommendation on the the zone so what's The Pledge commiss ordinance ased [Music] to recomendation motion been made to forward the ordinance to the mar council with the favorable recommendation there was a second Mr chair I didn't hear what we're we making a motion boing it with a change keep okay thank you that motion any question point right all in favor say I I iOS no n have recommendation will go for thank you next we have the 2024 City of Westminster annual plan reporting information certification the Ana code requires that by July 1 that we put together a an annual report the county does this on sort of on behalf of all of the municipalities and themselves so we prepare a draft document that comes before you for certification uh we then send your certification to Carol County uh they like I said they collected they combine it they do everything they're supposed to and then they go ahead and they send it um I believe it goes to their Planning Commission and also to the to the Commissioners to reveal and approve but all of it has to be done before July 1 so they have requested that this come back to them with certification prior to their March prior to our I mean yeah prior to our March Planning Commission meeting so um I'm here tonight to bring this to you um if you have any questions about anything that has been

proposed or um anything that I I talked about excuse me just let me know but um me and these are things that got final approval in the in 2024 so there were things that were introduced things that were brought up maybe things that went away for a while came back but they did not get final approval in 2024 is there anything you like to bring our attention to not particularly but um it's just always amazing to me um the amount of work that goes into even though on our list it might not to me it doesn't look like you know all that amount of things but it does take two you know two meetings you know an introduction and a recommendation or a public hearing you know the whole process takes a really long time and so I was really excited to see all the different things that happened um in 2024 but um this is also um an opportunity every year when we do this as a coordinating effort throughout the city because we do reach out obviously to Public Works we reach out to wck and park just to find out you know in the last year what has changed on their end as well it's always nice to check in all right any any questions from the commission you just need a motion to pass this law yes and to allow you to sign the letter that was provided in that in the F all right so and this is the report it's it's in there anyone didn't see it yeah a motion to

[Music] a motion been made to approve the the city of Westminster annual planning reporting information and allow me to sign it and forward on second second second to approve the report and any any questions to the motion second all right all no eyes right so next is the um development plan S8 Z37 my K9 buddy and app is here today to request approval for to construct a 40,000 ft indoor dog training and event facility so here's cder's Church Road um this here was Lot 5A of meow Branch industrial part two um you can see in the plans that I provided you if you need to see it a little bit more you have the large ones and you have the small ones so whatever you fancy is in there um but here is your the dog training facility and um the parking that surrounds it and showing you where how outlays on the property here is their final Landscaping plan that is required um this property has gone through several times with the board of zoning appeals um and all of that I just wanted to bring that to your attention of you

know all the process that they have gone through to to get to this point um they do meet uh the requirements for land saving they meet the requirements for um for parking as well I wanted to bring something to your attention just because it's just an interesting fact as well for the water um they do meet the water and water was something that was train they got a water trans for um back in 2020 so just just wanted to bring that to your attention because it's something different that we don't typically see um here is the proposed elevations that we that we received from applicant um we would say that um the inclusion of the stone base all the way around um the variation of roof lines and the use of different building materials to break up the long elevation other than just siding the reduction of bulky roof lines um is just something some kind of recommendations that we would say that help to meet the um design preference manual and just to show you all four sides so everything's in this staff report we can talk in as much detail as you'd like as well all the plans and the applic as well with the attorney and the engineer so any questions you may have um we would like to for we would recommend that the commission consider conditional approval this is number one just addressing all the city and county comments prior to submission of signature set which be safe for all of them and then to allow our staff to work with applicant on revising some of the architectural elements did your recommendation that those elevations come back to us for further discussion or what are we well that's really up to you um the other thing that um that we were talking about too is maybe doing something to make the main entrance more of a main entrance then uh it just looks

right now that it's just part of the just the general facade but these are just our recommendations and to see what you know how what the plan commission feels um and like I said the engineers here and and you know representation from the applicant so any questions or anything that you have I'm just cous so have nothing to do with side plan but tell me about your business what you will do it's interesting um we currently have a business in in park uh we do all kinds of dog training uh regular obedience manners kinds of things as well as dog [Music] spil so you won't be Hing a new do we hope to have events agility events that's what they such a how big is your facility right now um 10,000 SC 10,000 so this right right U we currently are holding three classes and or during the day and evening um I hope to expand that to more as well as happy events so like at an event how many dogs would be there per set well um most events if we do say agility it's about 350 runs so there's about hundred some1 150s do your um customers or clients do they come in from the outside they mostly local but I mean here's one of my clients she comes from T so yeah they come from all over two two to three times a week really that was actually a lot of the testimony at some of the BC hearings was the draw that this kind of creates because a lot of people are coming this is not something that you

see all over the place right these facilities and so the need for them is there and therefore they draw people from other regions as well because they are not prevalent say well you mentioned water transfer was the water transfer from your current facility to this or some something else was from something else so just something that was noted on real for the building yet so in other words they're not we're not allocating water they were they purchased water rights from another individual at the time uh when the city obtained their water there was a some left over that the property owner maintained okay and so they purchased from them so one good element about this it's not that we're not they're not asking for water allocation from the city I'm sorry they are asking for about half yeah it's just half of what they would probably mean and I just wanted to bring to light the fact that just because it's an unusual circumstance that that transfer had already happened so that's why they only need a small amount Mr so I do have a question just to get a little bit educated here um you know there are some residents relatively close um um and one thought that occurred to me was you know I I know it's an indoor facility so the dogs are not going to be outside except for I'm assuming they to use the restroom the outside um as as far as is number one I want to have a better understanding like is building insulated I would assume just because it's not it's not going to be great from a heating and air conditioning standpoint and paying for that um but I just want to get a sense that that is there going to be a concern for some of the neighbors related to noise emanating from this property um because of the the dogs in there if someone kind of speak

to that and kind of educate us a little bit I would appreciate that let me I actually did just a little kind of Andrea had it in her staff report but really du into that I did my own little time line here for everybody um so yes your question first of all the building is designed to accommodate that so that that does not impact anyone and second of all this is a special exception use in uh the ding District so it is subject to additional distance requirements as a result and it's also been through what I will say is a unique number of eing notice they were yes so in my professional opinion I will say a number of P so we have had the opportunity to have those conversations with anyone concerned and I think that that is really not a concern for the site and you'll see what I've done here is I kind of um outlined the project history for you because this is again not only has it been through a unique number of dza um cases but this site plan's been in process since 2018 and prior to that is when the text amendment was adopted allowing the use as a special exception in the zone and even prior to that Marta had explored um developing a site in the county and then had decided to switch to this property in the city so this has been a long journey for Marta we're excited to be here tonight and we're very much hoping for a final approval tonight um what I've also included in here attached the first one I thought as I was reviewing the packet it was just helpful to me to be where these elevations you were where you would see them from if you look at the first page what I've done is I've sort of numbered the elevations for you and then the second

page there I've included where you would then see each of those elevations from because I think that paints a very um good picture of the property and the surrounding area I've also on this sort of aerial image which I just pulled from the County's GIS map I've also indicated sort of the surrounding land use because this is in a unique is area it's right against the airport and against property that the county has acquired for potential airport expansion so if you look at this site um and I'll just use right and black my own sfe um on the right is property and this whole swap just further history this whole swap those three Parcels that you see there were all owned by um CJ Miller or entities thereof and so they went through a subdivision process and through that process the county actually acquired that one sliver there for potential airport expansion so that's under County ownership Marta purchased the middle parcel there and then to the left that parcel is in site plan review for self-service storage facility that whole swap kind of backs up to the existing Shelter Systems and then across from Shelter Systems is the new existing self-service storage facility that you're familiar with um and then there's also County owned property directly across the road from us and then the airport obviously uh runways and such are all further to the right there so this is all an industrially zoned area this is um you know the we are here tonight asking that you approve the architecturals have been provided to you we were hoping to have our contractor here to speak to some of the building materials but as a result of weather he is stuck in Tennessee

right now I'm trying to make his way here but Tennessee is quite a quite a distance so I don't think we're gonna see him tonight um but with that said what I've done is included some architecturals in this packet of surrounding development in the area that's Industrial in nature I think what you'll find is that what we've proposed is consistent with the surrounding development and again when you look at it in context with sort of the view shed that I've provided where you're seeing these elevations from the for example you know number what I've marked number five on here this big blank wall that is the back of the building that backs up to a massive uh forested buffer before then the rear of the Shelter Systems building so I don't know that there's a need to add un architectural design elements on that side of the building U Marta has has reworked her architecturals to try to create some unique features here on the front um and some of the portion of the building that will be viewed from the roadway and I think that that's fairly consistent with what you'll find in that surrounding area this property is not a downtown Main Street property and so I don't think that a application of the design preference manual is warranted on this property um so we're happy to answer any questions that you have about the elevations or any other details of the plan but I would request that this tonight this be approved subject to any meeting any other outstanding comments but that the plans be approved as before we get into the elevation can we speak a little bit more about just like the noise and and like you know what you see that as far as like is the concern no not really um as she mentioned the the building will be well

insulated so any noise that would be going on should be con so I'm not going to be 300 feet away from the building and hearing dogs barking or anything like that okay plus between the insulation and all that okay plus you're training in a in right I just want to get I just want to get a sense that the noise is not um and then to the elevations can you what I'm looking at here in our report um if I'm looking at the view from the north is this like some kind of stone block or what is this right here that I'm looking at yout one here yeah what what am I looking at what is that blue block or what is that Bri back with surveying that what for my understanding with the architect that is the U is concrete pain concrete uh the block that's molded with brick brick shapes in it and that would be pain concrete so it's pain in concrete yeah the molding it comes in a panel the rest ofing would metal uh very two different colors uh this has come a long way Mark can tell you we've tried a couple different versions with what with the staff report we see tonight we have not had an opportunity we have not received comments from from the planning department and we've not had an opportunity to review that with Mark this is the first time we've seen it in the staff report that you folks are getting with this version that we had presented a couple of months ago to them so

I you know we've come a long way I think Mark can tell you and I'm sure we can get the architect we can you know if there's some refinement that we need we can get that done so the the you know the elevations I'm seeing here are two different colors or which one is the one that being proposed I think it's just a PR it might be a printer the Builder had was had samples here unfortunately he's stuck mean like yeah green and I'm sorry it's thean oh okay so this is the correct GRE this has been printed in more accurate color so this is more consistent with what the elevation actually looks like because it looks very so this this part here is going to be the well these look like two so what elevation is it because this elevation looks different than that elevation that's from the street well no but this is the street this is the front view and even the window placement looks different if I'm if I'm looking at these two if you look at two at one on the sheet that Kelly gave it looks different than the view from the East so that's what I'm wondering like what is the correct thatly from this is printed from my packet too maybe something's going on because that view from the East the one that says street view and then your front view is the same correct me if I'm wrong but looking at this page of the bigger packet that was provided to you all tonight yeah I'm having trouble

following it so this is the the awnings look different this is showing separate awnings over the windows one larer okay but the coloring is more consistent with this still I think they're concerned about what cations well they were asking color iser he was saying that saying that one of didn't oh yes he's looking at this one which is that doesn't match the S oh this can we see this is from the current site this is the current site so it's that but with a little bit of beige instead of that so that that is like that that's what you're showing on the screen is so that's the actual color so I do think that there is you know I mean I don't know how everybody else feel I mean overall I'm relatively okay but I do feel like some of the elevations particularly that are going to be visible from the street need a little bit of cleanup I don't know how everybody else feels about that I'm open to dialogue and thoughts do mean I don't know what you

mean when I compare it to the big flat part that no one's going to see looks pretty good was just a suggestion I think we every every example that's provided in the other buildings in northeas is imers we're not this this metal building is somewhat new every other building we have typically in the industrial is is of a uh brick or concrete you don't have too many of these metal designs but now this this becoming very popular apparently in industrial zones but nor Eastern did that but if you look at the designs even with nor Eastern it's still adding certain elements that that base that solid base from the bottom that wrapped around the entire building the more defined entrance feature I don't think and even with them it didn't take much of a change to what they had to do but it did help out significantly in that front and I take exception with the fact that that this site shouldn't be subject to design preference manual the design preference manual should be for every build in the city I think we've done a lot to improve architecture design in the city and I'd like to continue and be consistent with what the we've been doing um I I don't disagree with uh looking at the four sides a little bit differently this does that element I agree that it does back up to an environmental area it's not going to be seen then you have Shel systems but I do think the sides and the front could do some additional work and I'm not looking at anything crazy I I think this should be some some additional elements add it for the architecture is that included in this recommendation you wrot here that's it's in the report we mentioned some of the elements that we think would help out with the with the elevation we can

certainly have discussions with the applicant and then come back U next month and hopefully can have some more discussion about the materials um I mean I think it's headed in the right direction but I I and I would like to see a little bit more work on the elevations particularly the ones that are visible and and and I do agree they have gone a long way from the original design they engineering firm and a lot of the issues initially worked out this is a much better design than what was originally proposed um the architecture I agree also changed it did add some of that that front element I think I think there could be tweaking done in the hopes that it wouldn't over increase the cost in some in you know some insum mountable amounts I do think there's some things that could be done similar to what we did with the uh Northeastern Supply and the it's sort of the unopen or the the openend question if you will that's the concern of my clients is just that this is a condition saying workout architecturals sort of a very opened condition to put on an approval so we feel that these architecturals are sufficient we really do um and it is what it is but we would have appreciated the opportunity to have heard that when we submitted them in December that they still weren't good enough and I've had that conversation it's just um it feels like constant conversation and we're not exactly sure what we can do to make it work like if if tonight's conversation is add five windows then that's a concrete thing that we can say yes okay financially

that makes sense we can do that with this project that will work and we think that that will improve the design it's just we're we're a little bit feeling confused I guess I mean what does the staff report say in regards to says that um that staff finds that the architecture elevation did not make to develop with design perence manual the inclusion of the stone base continue onto all four sides additional Windows along the facades and variation roof lines the use of different building material the break up the long elevation and just citing the reduction of a boky roof line of the entrance element and inclusion of architectural features to highlight the building entrance and is it's difficult to distinguish the front door of the build of the building for the rest of the pad and again we did we all we can do is point to the design preference manual and we sent elevations of other projects similar to that show everything that this report is talking about um so to say we haven't provided guidance we I don't know what else we can do other than show them what Planning Commission has approved in the past and this is what was found to be acceptable and we did provide a Northeastern one which is the most recent metal uh industrial building so you all like this design or you don't like I do not like the design yeah I think build out there I believe it's a if you look at other industrial buildings this is the only building be the building type in the city it's an industrial party it's in an industrial area but that doesn't relieve the thought of better architecture it's

still visible by residential Community to be high traffic I think what's there is I just think step back that's why I tried to attach some of the surrounding area here all right putting aside the architectual just for the sake of discussion does anyone else have any issues with the the site plan stuff other than the typical comments you have to solve I have I do have a question okay um do you have a specific area on the outside in on the property where I say dogs have to go to the bathroom but they can be outside you have a specific area on the where that's going to happen it has to all be indoor there is no outdoor runs dogs can't be outside going to the bathroom to indoor the bed facility to the you have to provide some type of restroom facility inside there's no runs all discussed atca I didn't see anys on the right so there's no outdoor run area for the dogs the outside and I was just wondering if there like Des that is going to be you know they're going to be directed I'm gonna I mean there's there's much grassy type area outside the parking ago but at B I think you spoke about like the waste disposal and those sorts

of things that she plans to have around as well seen to show that Des area we' want it fenced off we want it screened nothing site us are was never as part of the it was not an element that we understood needed to be repres on the site plan it's been made very transparent through the DC process it's always been part of the testimony at all the cases um it was nothing was done with the intention of not saying where the dogs were going to be but there not no permanent outdoor feature here I guess I mean I would i' probably have a problem to say if it was along the sides or towards the front because that's going to be the most visible area there appears to be enough land behind the building for that to happen think it needs to be fed off or screened or anything of that nature I agree that would be your decision to me fortunately what did you say Mr that that would be a requirement from The Zone administrator that if there's an outdoor element that's part of the use itself that's not being represented in the site plan site plan should show every activity of the use as it's being presented for the staff and the Planning and Zoning commission and I think we would require a fence and screening to provide some elements of impact again depend on the location but again I don't know where that location the actual defined area now I represent the project okay but also as a property owner next door the

Mar's training facility at 105 Airport Drive Unit number five I'm unit number four operated there for I don't know three or four years without any noise issue and without any waste issue NE one yes he's our NE he oh our office building on my office is right next door to a unit that they rented to train the dogs in and trained my dog yeah picking up after your dog everybody carries these with them they pick it up put it away in designated dispos spot so it doesn't stay on the ground itn't seem to be problem I don't I don't see can we as a commission say something does not have to be shown I mean that would it would be an interpretation of the zoning administrator so that would be zoning administrator decision not the commission's but we do make that recommendation you can make recommendation far as the site there's a lot of parking there all parking lot large large like trilers or something likees forv oh okay okay I thought maybe that was a place where they were going to outo outside jumping whatever you can do inside you do that's all I could all your activities inside outside parking getting the dogs

out of the cars truckside so I just wanna I'm confused because I'm have um so this whole restroom issue um this for you're saying that um that's up to the zoning administrator is that correct as far as making that interpret I mean if there's going to be a designated area to take the dogs outside that would be something that should be included on the site plan but again that would be a zoning administrator determination determination as far as um if there wasn't a designated place on the outside wouldn't have to be sh correct the idea is you're GNA take the dogs in the dogs May naturally go to the bathroom on their way into the facility don't well the dogs are obviously going to have to use the facilities at some point you would imagine depending on how long they're there um so and they're not using the inside um you know and and so Mr Debo um you know you're saying what are you trying to say related to the the facility because my feeling is that and I'm again this is not my area of expertise you know I would think that it would make sense that the Des quote the designated area would be towards you know the rear of the prop what i' calling the rear of the property not the street side of the property well I'm not even ready to say that they can have anything outdoors because it's by by the use itself it's an indoor dog training do indoor dog training facilities have indoor no that's what I'm saying so not not custom

yeah so so that's what I'm saying like what is typical for you know a training facility like is to go outside cor yeah what what do people do now at your current facility they go are other similar facilities somewhere else they a building like this there are this is what how it again I'm not the zoning administrator but to me inherently I would think that would be for the rear of the property that's just my thought you know I hate to say this I think you can say it's going to be to the rear of the property but people are going to go to a grassy area just to be practical think making prity exctly conc okay you probably need a designated area on City ground because you I can guarantee you don't responsible people do but all right any any uh so I guess there seem to be some have a discussion about the the how we move forward um what what concerns Mr Huff do you have I'm trying to understand everybody is on this I feel like the I would like some

additional work on the architecture but that's me are you well to allow Mar to work with the applicant that without to come back yeah definitely you know I I but I also want to be clear like you know I don't think every you know the whole thing needs to be totally redone or anything like that and my concern is more so the elevations that would face the the street but I'm only one member yeah that's I would like to see I think there's probably some things that could be improved with that I would I wouldn't agree with that the front of the building maybe hav so but I don't see a need from the side of the re yeah I agree maybe something in front it's an industrial I know but we have been here before where we've tell other industrial uses to you know that's what my point is is like we have held other industrial uses to a certain standard um as far as elevation wise I just think the entrance like Andre the best interest maybe I think there's some things that could be done to improve it and that's what my concern is is you know I I think we need to be a little bit consistent and that's what you know um because I don't know that correctly if I'm wrong like you know this has been dealing from 2018 but I don't think that's all because of elevations but you know so anyway I guess you know the question I guess is to to resolve this is to move forward but we have to depend on Mr Depot and staff to ensure that our concerns are [Music] addressed is that is that satisfactory would be conditional approval but one of the conditions in

addition to the ones in the report would be to work through the fa issues to address what I think the consensus of the commission is that at least the front has to be has to be done has to be done right where we don't have the same concerns for the other elevations is that pretty much it Mr chair I also think that there's some vment along the you know the will of the commission that um you know mly it sounds like it's the administrator's determination but the whole restroom thing I I don't know that personally I don't know that there needs to be like you know fed off area or know trees around the restroom facilities that's just my humble opinion I and I'm kind of sensing that from I know we might not have the right to enforce that but I'm just saying I I don't not overly concerned about this no I'm not either I think I'm more concerned about the elevations than I am like I think you could stick I think you could stick a fence area behind it and nobody even going to go into the fence area and I think that's why I think it's a to me it's a good point yeah and there's plenty of area behind the building that appears to be a grassy area that so okay I think that yeah it'll be something I I certainly work with them consider it's just you have some buo retention area back there which I'm not sure you can take dogs into the buyo retention and go to the bathroom want to understand that it's a steep slope in the back the drops down significantly so that doesn't really hold much a good location for so really the only place the most logical place is possibly in the front but that's but again I think it's we can have discuss have discussion them about that can we pull up the front entrance again

please the street view yep I'm trying right there the top says this says main entrance so right and that place is the parking lot I don't want toy I don't want to redesign this tonight okay my okay what I like to see us do is is a conditional approval move forward you work with the staff to resolve this question of the facade folks can move on that's what i' like to see the commission and if for some reason you can't come to some sort of you come back a reasonable def place there's no reason that you can't come back of this commission if absolutely need be um but you know my biggest concern is particularly from the street view um and you know from the parking lot to a certain point um at least as it gets close to the street field yeah that was what I was going to ask from a Clarity perspective because Mr Ho mentioned looking more closely at the street view and while I would like to Hash it out have you design it tonight what we can do to satisfy uh everyone apparently that's not going to happen so we will rely on staff's discre and some reasonable design changes um but we are focused on the street view yes I I I think that's where the commission is is at is particularly the street view some the parking lot view but I mean but also a parking lot like you know so when I say the parking lot view I'm more concerned about what's going to be visible as I'm driving by not like if I'm all the way in the back end of the parking lot it is industrial use so you know I think we want to be reasonable here um but so you're talking about doing

something you know asking them to do something a little bit different maybe with the entrance front entrance is in the parking lot it's not you're not driving right is that correct the parking lot that's what it says here I'm just saying well that's why that's why I just want Clarity are we talking about that the front entrance street view so no I'm concerned what I'm concerned about is the street view as I'm driving by but I also but I am also concerned about where the main entrance is and and all of that if that makes sense just the BR part of this sh that's that's what I saying what you did on the left would you wrapped around that corner kind of took you from the street you around to the next street and maybe you could do that on the right side then you'd wrap it around where you'd see a little bit from met BR R you know what I'm saying and I don't exactly once you put in the middle because you wouldn't be much left in the middle but but the way that in other words if you just wrap the other quarter like you did the left see right yeah I will say kind of see that take that long cuz you going to see that long building from meta branch and I don't I don't say you have to take that finish all the way across that that street view you can break it you know you can shorten it on the left side and add put some of that on the right side Landscaping there too yeah we don't have that yet we don't have the benefit that would be just I think that would add you some it might give you start sort but you're right there are a lot of trees on Landscaping playing but might BL the building growing surrounding buildings that's

kind of what you see because you see Shelter Systems has like one really big solid wall but then from a street view with the Landscaping it's all and it's kind of what I'm looking at the street view here right now and I think it's kind of hard because we don't have the right coling on the elevation or there's confusion over coloring like when I look at that street view right now it's kind of weird it almost looks like two buildings match together you understand what what I'm looking at that right now just be honest it it looks like two build two different buildings and someone just kind of smashed them get together there's not like a consistent well I don't know but I'm just saying it doesn't but partly is the coloring you know there's been all this talk about different coloring it just doesn't kind of go like and and it could be partially we're not seeing a a totally accurate representation of what the intent is because you know on this one looks different than what it looks up there that go better than I don't again like you know I don't want to go down you know um it's just looks a little all right well I guess the question of the issue ofde what we were talking about is giving that responsibility Mark to what through the issues is that already including in in that's number yes that's what number two we would that would fall under that and the idea is is that Mr dep would work with the owners we we

would granted condition approval which is what's requested that would be one of the issues that have to be resolved if not then you're GNA have to come back here is that fair yeah I think a lot think a lot of the comments that just recently made is similar to what we were thinking too I mean it's not like they're going to start building tomorrow they have a lot of things to do which is typical project like this pleas move forward with the recommendation on the so is there a motion motion consider conditional approval of the proposed site devel plan s37 the followings of approval address all outstanding city and county toiss that my dcpd staff to work with the applicate on revising arations okay motion been made is there second to that motion second motion been made seconded any questions concerns from the commission member all in favor say I I no I'm sorry

okay sign this is Andrea y sign from at 1983 40 mag away this is an additional sign for Northeastern Supply located at 49 way they have um they have built and they have um open this here is is what their current sign looks like and they they want to get an additional sign on the side of their building um they're allowed to based off of their square footage of how much signage they are allowed however um the sign is greater than the 64 square feet it is 125 and this commission can approve up to 125 square feet would be to the limmit yes that's this side here matches what they currently have yes this one is 125 square feet and this one is also but like I said they are allowed that signage under their but it has to come back but it has to come here that's that's part of the rules yeah so so we calculate we take the front elevation multiply by three that tells us total amount of signage they can have so they're not exceeding that but no sign could be over 125 well no sign could be over 64 that we can approve internally Planning Commission can approve up this 125 so that's can't exceed 125 so that at 125 that is what second motion been made can I just ask one question on curiosity does this this new new sign is it going directly onto the siding or does it like stick out from the siding I was just kind of curious about that I am not sure build I'm just curious have to be attached to the no but I meant like is it a a peel kind of thing that goes on

top because of it's going on top of The Ridges it's going to be a little bit box sign up against that's a good question usually we it's what stud Mountain it must be a solid sign it's a solid so okay that's what I was trying to get clarity from is is it like a stick is it like sticking on the sding itself or is it mounted and it's a flat surface okay that's what I was trying to get Crea a flat bracket that it would sit on okay so it's a flat it's not going in and out with the siding that's what my point okay thank you it's flat surface okay thank you okay okay motion has been made in second to approve the sign permit application 1983 to allow a second 125ot Square sign for Northeastern Supply are there any questions all in favor say I I the I okay per it's approved next we have a work session on zonal map Amendment zma 24-1 this we looked at this some time ago right October there we had a public hearing on it okay so this so again yes we had a work session on August 29 2024 febrary 17 2024 we had a public hearing the Planning doning Commission had a public hearing it was scheduled November 21st 2024 to come back for a work session this is following the same track we just did with 222 e screen same concept same con

same yeah same process but the applicant requested a continu it because there were some citizens at that meeting I think five members of the public came out and had questions concerns and the applicant spent this time meeting with the applicant it was nice to hear from the applicant as there how those meetings went um so on February the 11th we did receive updated renderings um building location if you recall um this was the option there were three options if you wanted to go all the way back to the layout uh this is the option the Planning Commission preferred with a larger green open space in between the buildings um so really the primary issue or the concern from the citizens was the height of the buildings proximity to the houses and then from staffs it was more the architecture of the buildings not only the front architecture but also the rear architecture because we he going to be standing up pretty high out the ground and from outside appearance that's what we're going to see it's not you know the people internal living there are going to have a nice view inside at staff thinks the exterior is just as important that's going to be a dominant feature from every perod from Pennsylvania Sullivan and 140 yeah so uh these are some of the updated renderings that were provided this is the rear those are the rear elevations so staff still has continuing concerns with the elevations um see we did provide just the staff in the staff report you have something that you want to show yeah so in the staff report I don't think we have again it's still that height

element that we heard and are there ways to reduce the height of the building um and looking further into this again you still have the flat roof option that can reduce some of that height elopment um some other things staff looked into was how do you maintain the density but still maybe reduce the height and already one over two Condominiums versus two over two they're three-story model they still get the density for units but could potentially reduce the I the buildings and when it comes to the architecture itself um the you have this on screen that you I'm sorry you look your staff for on page four seven um the issue being that what we've been trying to move away with and this is I discussed at the 222 E green this flat dominant wall four story wall that just is just blank and um and we're trying to we were looking for more of an more more elevation changes and if you look at the four an example providing four this is out of gburg um where it provides some depth and movement in the front facade similar to what you did with 222 East Green they have the benefit the applicant have the benefit of seeing no just unless they look at the staff we at it so um we just got we just got the these not too long ago this month and we were we wanted to help out the applicant by BR at Le in this work session again this is a work session we can have continue this discussion but we wanted to get in front of the Planning Commission the other element too if you look at the plan I thought was a unique aspect is not having this open out Cove area that when you walk into it you have

a door here and a door to the side this product actually provides all the doors in the front and stairs going up to the second one providing more of a residential kind of look to the building as well so again I think there's the design I think we're all comfortable to design for us it's really the height that that and want to get guidance on the height and architecture as well Mr Depot would a design like this be less in height I would assume or not it would be because you wouldn't have the Gable flat roof you have so it would just be inherently I I'll be very straightforward and we really went through a good process with the property owner on Green Street I don't know how I I say this and I don't mean any offense to whoever came up with the architecture of of this but for some reason this like feels very 80s 90s to me when I look at it where where I look at what this has been provided sounds much more intriguing to me and seems much more modern look looking and I you know I really like the vibe of what we see here um and in all honesty I'd like to see the the applicant kind of go in a direction like this um from an architectural standpoint which would still give them the density but also from an added bonus there was concern from some of the neighbors regarding height and a design like this I think is still very attractive um and would lower the height as well I thought we talked about this fit the neighborhood better next I think that the neighborhood better I don't necessarily how does that how does that fit the neighborhood any better

when the neighborhood around has a bunch of single you know a bunch of like little Cottages it's like you said it's more of a a different older style than this thing I know but like this is a new product unto itself I don't really listen the quality of the work that we did with the other person that you know the LMA Amendment on Green Street I'd like to see something more exciting than what I see there yeah my feel let me ask a question of the St just so as far as the uh as far as the actual site plan component do you see any real issues with that you understand what I'm saying go back to the plan I focus I want to focus our attention on where we have issues not you know the no I I I think even staff was pushing for this option with the Planning Commission we came through I think some of the again the big concerns having the he along 140 is the concern I think it was really in this area and that impact you have these single on story houses he say leave theight out of it anything else so but yeah but outside that no I think it's there's some path systems I think we can work on the additional sidewalk potentially uh some sidewalk connection not like huge issu yeah nothing that's going to affect the plan but some little tweaking of of just movement of people some of the other things we have questions about is you know with these type of products is trash removal in the back and um how that works and how it functions a little bit more and trying to pay attention to where some units AC units are great issues as well I'm sure there's new techniques but that will get more into the harder and site plan design start it

but I think this layout I like the layout yeah me too so the so the issue for the commission is going to be how the buildings look and how tall they are and I think it that was the issue we had before wasn't it we were having the same debate back in October and the residents were bringing this question so how do you how do we how do we accomplish having a better looking building that doesn't have the appearance of height that the current plan shows that's a question is it St just SE um the uh already hack it right yes sorry about that um when we were here in October um we went through and we tried to address the concerns that we heard um as much as we could through obviously the commission and the people that spoke there um and I just wanted to go over a couple of the items the the layout that you see there was a question about the parking um there's there's a space inside the garage there's a space outside the garage um and then there's the parallel and perpendicular part through the site that that basically uh exceeds the amount that's actually I believe I think about 14 or 15 spaces but um so that that addressed that and then the as far as the layout when we talked about I do believe that the commission at that point had no problem with four stor is what I remember um and cor guys do we there's a meeting minutes on that aspect of it when we were when we were meeting on that because I thought this project the one that was on Green Street um

there was a question on that because it was in the historic district and they were concerned about the four stories and here there wasn't concern is what my understanding was when I left I sort of remember there being some concern about ped from some of the neighbors what my memory was my understanding was by the commission they didn't really have a you didn't really have a concern as much about the the the four stories compared to anyway that's what I I I left with and if I if I'm losing my mind that's fine um I just we could be losing our mind has been long there was a lot of concern about the how they look there's no question about um the architecture like I remember I think uh big Baldi uh May mention about you know the Dormers I believe you had said something about the Dormers and all that but overall the design of the building what I thought the commission was uh they they thought that that fit within the area more so than the Contemporary look that you see uh where where Mark has you know the whether it's gaitherburg if you go down to you know theburg and Northern Virginia you see a lot of more contemporary type buildings nowadays so from that point um the the issue I thought also was is the side facade and wrapping around the back where we tried to break up with some masonry if you if you looked at the sides um we gave it a stab it you know we added some masonry to the side of the building and wrap around where the garage doors are um to try to break that up somewhat um and that's where that where we are right now with with the architecture and we have not spoke to um the planning staff about that architecture and and as far as what their concerns are from this point that we're hearing it for the first time so

which is not a problem just I'm trying to get everybody up to date make sure we're you know if we're g yeah Mr hacket and I know and sometimes it's kind of frustrating because it's like a work session kind of process but um I personally I'm not I wasn't in love with the architecture that I saw last time and what I see here doesn't necessarily make me feel you know um any better and I I was somewhat and I'm not saying it has to be like this but I I I am somewhat intrigued by the look of some of what I see here which would still give you the two over two um and the added benefit is if it is a flat roof it you know one of the comments that we kept on hearing from the neighbors was about height so it would bring down the height as well um and miss mcti and I might not see eye to eye but but you know the fact of the matter is like the architecture of the surrounding houses this isn't going to go any better than this in my humble opinion I mean this is when we're all made Green Street and Main Street I think we need to tie in more with the the historic Vibe and we were we were really focused on that to me with this not being right on Main Street or or or Green Street it allows you to kind of go in a you know different directions because it doesn't have to pull in that historic by uh I I'll be honest I just to you know we're pulling down and remember we're pulling down a Zone on top of this to allow additional density we're doing that if we're going to do that I I you know a real focus of the city of Westminster has been you know

we're okay with density we're okay with more housing but part of the bargain and return for that is that we get some more interesting products and design we worked really hard with a gentleman on East Green Street he came back here multiple times put for the good faith effort to deliver a product that I think when it gets built people in the community are going to be very excited about I and I'm not saying this needs to look like that but what I'm saying that does not do anything for me um and I wish I could get better Direction that's why I was just trying to and maybe what needs to happen is there needs to be some more collaboration between the applicant and staff and more representations but kind before you guys found some different photos and we kind of said hey that looked attractive and then that inspired the applicant to kind of work through multiple versions and the end result is something by the time that because remember this has to go to Mayor and common Council by the time it went to Mayor and common Council it that's sail through I mean no I the feedback I got from my colleagues they were super impressed with the work that our Planning Commission did and they weren't you know really micromanaging it or focusing in on it even though they have every right to I mean the mayor and common council could take whatever we send to them and rip it all the shreds and say hey see you later they did not do that because they were really impressed with the product I'm not I'll just be honest I'm not in love with the architecture I see I'm not saying that this is the answer today but I find at least what you provided in intriguing um and I mean I'm just one person again um but you know and maybe

everybody has different opinions and I I but I think that's what the applicant needs to hear is some feedback and my humble opinion I'm okay with the density um but I'm more intrigued by something that looks like this and the added benefit is IT addresses one of the concern that we did hear from the neighbors that I think would bring down the height as well they we also did um the five people that spoke at the hearing we sent them certified letters and basically it was end of November beginning of December uh we did hear from two of them um and the uh one Miss Spencer she has the P piece it's basically landlock yeah and it's a small two two of those uh uh part right there right there yes and uh this is Tom P he's the contract purchaser um he's working he actually puts put some calls I've met with Miss Spencer she wants to sell um she'd like obviously Tom to buy it um they're interested in buying it they just got to come to a price um you know it it will obviously it it will help we can actually grade on the property somewhat we can probably actually remove a retaining wall so so there's some there's some benefit there that Tom saw that um to to pursue that the other gentleman was uh Mr Lane um he actually he lives he lives in front and not actually buted no he's one over yes spoke to him is his main concern is is the height and how may affect his ability to sell his house because he wants to sell anyway he want

and but it when you're his location doesn't really serve a purpose for our our our project um yeah so and and that's his opinion but he's he said he'll probably be gone within a year and a half two years um and we we had good conversation and I did tell them that we would be out there which we had we want to State the the two buildings that are right in that little that lower area and we stake the building that's closest uh back at the end of the lane on so we we stake those three buildings there rough State the corner so we can people can see roughly how far into the property they are um again because you they we concerned about height so uh Mr Hof you know we're listening to what you're saying about the height um we do want to our our goal is we we want to get the obviously the archit Ure is something that's agreeable to everyone um and and satisfies people's concerns you know views or whatever um but ultimately you know we want to try to get a recommendation favorable from the Planning Commission to the city council for the actual zoning change um understanding that we also will be dealing with the Planning Commission through the through the architectural of the site plan process we still have that to go through this is just a development plan for the zoning class well no but on Green Street you know the elevations were actually attached to what the mayor and common Council approved so that because when we drop these you know land map amendments down um when we do that as the mayor and common Council we're kind of attaching the elevation right and that kind of controls um so that that the mayor and common Council knows what they're getting so typically You' be right in a

typical site plan situation but this is unique because we pulling down the land land map Amendment and providing that extra density that's why you know this these work sessions and kind of getting it through here is really important because otherwise then then we're not spending the time on from a mayor and common Council standpoint I don't think the plan we see there anybody really has any obje it's all about the elevations it's all about how the buildings look yeah that's um and I'm I'm fine with and I appreciate the feedback I think from our standpoint we've we've had this property on our contract for about three years um we first had to get water we we floated our initial plans uh to staff and it was actually we didn't want to build 40 units we just wanted to build 29 three story units but we were told that we needed to make it denser so and it was suggested that we do two over two so we we've come back a couple of times with different ideas and we are more than willing to um try to work with you guys to get to an acceptable architecture but there doesn't seem to be the the sand shift there doesn't seem to be okay it's going to be 42 over tws and we're okay with the height but now you need to make the buildings look a little bit different if we had some parameters um because as as everyone knows architecture and design is it's very objective and what one person really likes about may not and I can come in here with like 30 different plans if we if we know that the boxes are okay and the heights are okay then I can give some direction to my architect say well I I think based upon and correct me if I'm I'm wrong but based upon our conversations uh prior I think that we were very comfortable with the layout that's shown up on the scen screen is that not correct um and I think that we're comfortable with the

two over two concept okay I I think the big thing is now um related to the architecture and what I would suggest um and we I think we did this with the other Gentleman on Green Street is instead of him going going out and doing four full elevation drawings you don't want to do that right but what he did is did some like a couple concept like just like you know he maybe brought us like three or four different versions of different concepts and then you know we were able to go you know what we kind of really like that one over there is really intriguing kind of go that direction and then they were also in between correct me if I'm wrong working with staff to further refine that and that's kind of how so it was a give and take you know over a period of several months of trying to really nail down that that arit was the Planning Commission able to look at the so we did submit a version that had a flat roof that was a little more modern the same building uh we sense an elev to staff I'm not sure if you guys ever had a chance to look at that I'm sorry Rec that if I got it I missed it I was gonna think I think the pitch roof is what makes the abill seem so much higher right the fourth story doesn't bother me but I think a pitch roof is what makes so there's a there's a somewhat more modern looking version with a flat roof that's being built in leeburg and that was you had sent me some pictures of some buildings long time I think for like in Alexandria or Arlington I sent to the lebur one and and so based on that we had sent in a version that was kind a monitor flat roof same same building um same footprint so it would fit in this design and I'm fine building either one I can I can resend them I I'll refor the email that I had sent previously um

my biggest my biggest critique this is not necessarily negative it's just the the height I think a flat roof would be better and we're fine with that I just think the I think the buildings look plain they look too plain there should be some architectural features to it yeah like if you look at this and not the you know I know you don't have the benefit of it but you know it's breaking up you know things are moving this way and that way as well as you you know some of the moldings there's different things going on that just make the elevation look a little bit more interesting and yes it's a little bit more modern but I'm okay with that um especially in this you know location I I quite frankly I really like you know what staff showed you know showed here and I'm glad to give it to you to kind of give you a sense um but um and I think it's interesting too one of the things I will say I like about this just from a practical standpoint um you know the classic 2 over two you were talking they have to go into a common door and then go one way or the other way I will tell you from a just a quality of life if I was living in a unit like that having the individual doorways to the units like this I think is very appealable from a resale standpoint now you're is this a is this a resale or this is a you're going to rent these out rental yeah but we're building them so that they have the ability to so so you you could sell them individually but I think having the one thing that's kind of nice about this elevation to is the concept that you don't everybody has their own door right I think that's nice and actually being a commercial landlord myself and dealing with apartment buildings which I think you can relate to I've had issues before where because people have a common door they go into a

common door then one goes this way one goes this way I have had arguments over those kind of scenarios so actually if you are keeping these as rentals and running them out having individual door for everybody might save you some potential heada am I not right you have rental I've dealt with that issue so how what is the best way to proceed so that we can move this along um I have no problem generally with the flat roof I have no problem with adding more modern features um I'm not going to necessarily I don't have access to that Builder's plans but we can certainly pull elements from that I think you you come back with maybe three or four different flates especially the ones facing 140 you want look and I'm not sure if the the change from brick to another material changes it enough that get they just look they just look so PL I know they're back but they look so plain I still don't understand how this door stuff works and I'm glad you explain it because I don't understand how you get to the top oh I understand it you mean oh how do I if I had the go back to the front I go my so this this's this out here that you walk in and it's set in and once you get into that space there'll be a door to the right that gets in the front the unit and a door ahead of you that goes upstairs if they up so they're kind of hidden inside this out here doors you just for weather purposes it's you have the recessed Alco so that you're not

like standing that's the purpose of that all the access comes from the front or is it similar to the back too no the access you have garage access to the back yeah so from the garage door you would have direct access to the the garage that serves the first unit ground level then the ground upper units at stairways that go up okay to the yes so the first the first floor the the first kind of Min on to pick up the first two levels is smaller because it's taking in two parking spaces the ones above are are the upper levels the more valuable more expensive well they're these AR small units they're like 2300 square feet is that how large they are yeah the upper so are they fre bedrooms or three bedrooms three bedrooms so is the downstairs generally two no they're three bedrooms they're three but they're just okay bigger um more living space or much bigger owner Suite on the the upper level like Master Suite every unit is free bedroom and that big over 2,000 square fet I think the first floor white mark Dimension with the carb is like 1890 basically it's the dimensions of the garage out of it so that's big yeah they're big they're big units and they're very nice units and like I said if we can nail down okay this layout is good four stories is fine but we want a flat roof it allows me to at least not throw darts at this um well and I think if you were able to come when you come back to the next meeting and you have like three four or five and I think even before that if you share some staff stuff with staff like let's say you sent them 10 things they can probably go hey I would take these five you know what I mean to Planning Commission just it

depending on what you find just great you know photos but then when you come back to us if you come back to us with three four or five different kind of General elevations I don't want you to do spend a lot of money doing stuff but just general vibe to kind of get the elevation right of the front particularly um then I we can give you a sense of direction like you know we really like that and pull the element of this into it and then you go that's kind of how it worked with the other gentlemen there was this kind of you know give and take and it was a little bit it's a unique process that we're going through because we have not done a lot of these land map amendments quite quite frankly because we have water right and now we do and so we have more opportunity yeah and I we'll probably get you like three or four versions because I don't want to throw we have to make sure that what we propose to you is buildable it's you know there are some beautiful things I can pull out of like Alexandri and Arlington but you know I can't build $2 million condos so it's gotex I got I gotta apply the L test of what I show you I have to actually be able to so you know but I think you know generally speaking a little bit more contemporary flat roof um the layout's good I can narrow that down to to three things and I think we can generally get get you comfortable for purposes of the the overlay and then like Marty was saying you're going to get you know I wouldn't design completely design the buildings through construction drawings for the overlay but then you will get those back again at s sure so we can give you sort of a here's what the elevation is going to look like but you'll even you'll get a chance to look at more features like closely at trim and things like that when we come back in the site plan yeah okay well we we'll be ready to come back and see next month so we'll get a couple of things back at the staff right

away yeah just an interesting question if they somehow add pieces an acre of land actually all connect that later after the fact fall under that same umbrella of this buy I didn't want to qu so we we've looked at it we don't think that it would change the the density the only we would be doing is being better neighbors we would be able to eliminate a retaining wall great it and or gradually have a little more green space I I don't know that we would we don't need it for any of our calculations I mean we can meet our green spaces we just kind of be bonus we bring it under but I don't know that to be green space would it have to have the overlay on it we we have an official zoning application yet yeah yes so the area that would be outside the area that's been defined and advertised but I see nothing if they're not asking that that be pulled into the overlay but use it for grading purposes and offsite easements and things like that for the development I don't think it necessarily needs to be zoned yeah we don't tend to do anything on it other than grade in Green Space so right j i I say I do think a flat roof would be more appropriate in this area but definitely we need to do something about you know what the back of the buildings look like it just just looks like she apply now it needs to be different yeah well we can the the alternative this building which has the flat roof and the more mod side it's actually being built in in leberg so we can get you actual pictures of of a finish unit not just and that is helpful too A lot of times that that's a lot more important than building

now the Builder that we work with is building them out theb homes they're building them in leeburg down so they're going to feed build these for us so we're hiring them to Feild the force if you could if you could get any kind of uh information on where they're located Mark that would be good to know because I know I get down that way sometimes and I'll make a point to stop they marking so they're building the four sale units there it it's it's kind of unique my partner in this project is gent by the name is Dan r he's Dan build it's now drb homes uh he's no longer affiliated with them but they feed build stuff for us to hold us as investment problems used to right downtown near the creek and the walking pad the trail yeah I used to work down there so very familiar with the site what is the name of the project it starts with I can't yeah they're building in two locations and it's the exact same unit it's just with a more modern facade black um and it's a little bit more contemporary so and then you know we can we can tweak that as well in architectural features but if I've got the layout right and the box right that's I'm halfway there I'm not just trying to you know shoot DS in the dark okay so I guess everybody knows what's going to happen next this will come back next month can report hello we're glad tonight know only okay I don't have that many updates

um the water and sewer uh fall 2024 amendment is in process uh Board of County Commissioners approved all the Amendments on February 13th um and it's being sent in for a final review and approval um this is updated by Andrew Gray the amendment includes Hamstead Manchester and freedom um yeah master plan updates so we've been posting a series of open houses is one of each election district for the master plan to educate public also get feedback on citizens um the first three of those have already passed we have two more um and they're scheduled through March 6 um yeah we're meeting with um the County Planning Commission over the next several months to discuss the master plan and uh working groups are in process like we're working on working groups we're going to have three working groups um agriculture Economic Development and housing um those are going to be uh managed by Claire uh Andrew and um Tiffany um yeah all annexation related questions and information should be forwarded to Javier Toro now um now that Hannah has left uh Javier is taking over all annexation questions and information and uh annual report we already discussed that tonight earlier so yeah that's pretty much everything housing study has been

complete how long are you expecting the master plan process to actually 435 right too long too long long hopefully not 2035 um I mean they want to have it done by the end of but um they want to have it done by the end of this year way I believe so but that's an incredibly optimistic I would I definitely say that's very optimistic it has would you not say Mr Bo yes based on our previous experience yes well two bigger elements of transportation and housing when you do these type of things are done um so it's hopefully a lot of work would have to I agree a lot of work would have a lot of meetings would have to go into it to get it done by this year but two of the larger Elements which usually take the longest you look at housing land right now I guessing more in the land use element it but yeah I it's it could be a while they get it done this year I'll be I'd be very impressed eating your words yeah yes indeed very surprised want to get him over here any any questions sorry I don't have any questions I just wanted to piggy back on something that that you had said um so originally I had sent out an email about our Planning Commission going to the March Planning Commission meeting for the county for us to have a conversation there were multiple municipalities who had picked that day so we are now on the schedule for April 15th that's a definite that is what I got I'm sorry what day of the week is Thursday oh no no no Tuesday April 15th April

tax um so no it's the day they said that the um they put um the municipality is the first thing on the agenda so Souls you're telling 45 minutes is the uh is the block of time that we're what is it about 9 9 910 something like that and but we will be out before 10 is what they said have you watched the other municipalities yet but you will sense because I got some feedback um it was 20 town the other day and I think sville I think what we'll do also we'll try to find a link to that and send it to the planning commissioner so you can kind of see what the concept is I think they're looking for feedback by this Planning Commission as to where you see the city growing in plans for the city and um so but we'll we'll send you some links so you can kind of view it to get a concept of what's happening I heard the Tony Town went well yeah but I'm assuming that staff is gonna be driving a big part of this is that correct I with presentation I would think so I don't know that's I want to see what yes because that's what I that's kind of what I thought I mean not that we don't want to participate but like you know big picture wise I I thought that that yeah otherwise they might get bed and this is hot off the press they just at six o'cl so I'm sorry it's hot off the press the information that we are going on tax day so it just is at six o'clock got the email so just wanted to provide the update um let me know if you can through an email if you're available the county would like to know you know who is you know our

last okay so just so I'm clear April 15 9 o' probably will be there for an hour yes and county office building3 for us and and um the idea is that we would offer comments regarding are they going to have something to look at ahead of time or we just gonna have a free willing well that's what we got to figure I think staff is going to watch some of the other presentations and kind of come up with a plan and then you're going to let us know how you want us to kind of participate along with that I yeah from what I mind is it's more it's a meet and greet as well having both planning Commissioners kind of meet and greet uh better collaboration things they can do for each other but also I think the goal primary goal is US providing the county and the County's Planning Commission some of the goals and and what we see for the city um maybe some of the discussions of plans that we've looked in the past and how we're you're seeing us move forward so I but I look I'll we'll send you those videos as well and we'll take a look at it maybe we'll come up with like a little talking points agendas and get it out to everybody so we can start getting the same page yeah they're they're not really presenting their plan for us to review they're looking for seem like they're looking for our ideas I think so too pile yes and then sort through I I think they kind of want to get a sense of what our goals are yeah so that they can better figure out how that inter relates to what they're doing with the master plan so I'm imagining and this is why we have to watch this but you know we could talk big picture or S would talk big picture about the fact that you know there's the a desire to eventually you know see the Redevelopment of the mall um we could talk about like East Green Street and like some of the exciting projects that

we have coming up because they're going to be interested in those kind of things because that ties into housing um and some of the things that we're we're looking to you know to do um so I mean but you guys are going to have to look at that and kind of figure out what what you need from us and how you want us to participate in now and this time this time is just ours though right it's just yours yeah yes yeah but they're expanding all it's not like a meet and greet from the standpoint it's not like we're sitting around talking we're like they're up there we're down here yeah I think it's you know the water reuse program things like that that letting them understand that we have water coming in that we are do have water now and that's why we're seeing these projects and I also think it's what what impediments there may be um potentially that the county doesn't want or what what impediments do we want to not occur so we can have this develop so is there anything the county and things that we would look for the county that kind of help us move through our projects a little bit quick I think that you know I think that one of the things is most important and critical is that as a city wants to Annex so long as it's not some crazy proposal that the county generally supports that understanding that this is a region that's interrelated interconnected we as a city have the wood and sewer system that goes well we probably have more W sewer area in our system and we doing this in the County area we actually do in the city as far as square miles so we're always going to be interconnected here probably more so than some of the other places because of the city's influence in public services go well beyond the city limits yes and as a result of that you know the city doesn't want to has historically not wanted to take in

property without it being you know somebody that wants to develop that can Annex they want that to happen and I think that it seemed like lately the cooperation been quite good I mean I can't say it's always been that way but I think lately it's been quite good you understand where I'm coming from because it used to be a fight every time yeah now it seems to be they're usually recommending approval but uh so I think you know consistent Water and Sewer planning working together I think is a critical part of it I think housing is an issue for the whole County and because we have I think some really good things are happening with the Green Street project got some good density this project we just talked about has some good density there's a feeling among many people that density is bad density is not bad it just has to be done well corre has to look nice people have to say oh wow that's pretty sharp but if you're just throwing up Green Apartments I think that's the kind of stuff that they will react to well and I think that the Carol County Planning in is probably at a point head spacewise where they will be excited to hear some of the projects that we're doing like on the Green Street condo project like the Willows um because that kind of helps them kind of achieve what trying to achieve overall which is more housing stock and that diversity of housing stock um you know so definitely I mean yeah and they've been frustrated I know certain members of the Planning and Zoning commission every time have sometimes been frustrated with there's been some resistance in the Eldersburg area to certain kinds of density so I think they'll be happy to see that some of those kind of things are happening in Westminster and also when we show the

the elevations in architecture I think they'll be like wow that looks really I think they'll be impressed that's why I kind of think and you'll have to watch it but I I think it's kind of will be exciting to show some of what we have coming because I think they will be intrigued by that you know there there was a study done years ago this is was kind of crazy you wouldn't think it but the more expensive the house was the more likely that the purchaser was going to come from outside the county and as prices of housing went down the purchasers tended to be more Cal people because it was the younger people that already live here because they need a place to live that's right conversation live and work here need a place to live that's affordable I'd like my kids to be able to live in Carol exactly but it's it's challenging you see the the marketplace on houses finding something anywhere decently under $400,000 is very difficult think of the people that you know where they've had kids that are in their Mon and the kids have moved to Pennsylvania they moved somewhere else because they can't afford to live around here or they can afford but they don't like the fact that there's no they can't live with the amenities they want you know right young and then we're losing we're losing those young people which is not good for you're a young professional that comes here to work or this going to be where my home is trying to find place is not easy if your cell phone didn't cost $1,000 you can probably afford one actually more than that but what you say I said if their cell phones didn't cost I think I think the uh the thing that's impressed me about serving on information time and attention that we put into making sure project are right not just saying we just approve it but we

actually approve something we're proud of yeah that that makes a big difference we take ownership and I think that's important it's an important concept that we can impress the county Upon take ownership of what you're doing well and also I think bigger picture we were talking about it in our economic and Community Development meeting today this afternoon which is why I was a little bit late um is like the project on Green Street depending on where we get up you know get to with this Willows uh uh project and then there's other things coming down the pike which I'm not at Liber to discuss right now but that are going to be exciting and what's going to happen is when these projects are approved and they start getting built and people see that that's going to create more excitement in Westminster and drive more people being interested in Redevelopment and reinvesting in Westminster as they see these projects you know the project they wtto I wonder they they're full I think they were gone like they were they went very quick I think one of the most I think one of the most critical properties that is going to be redeveloped is going to be the mall property you're not wrong and I think the mall property is absolutely critical I think there's some nobody nobody's part me on this but I happen to walk a lot over there and I I I can see all kind of possibilities I hope what it doesn't become is some big chain store that sells groceries and consumer product I don't think that's the place for I think this site could be a how could be a multi multi use type project it couldn't doesn't have to be all

commercial could have some commercial could probably have some residential elements it's per perfect it's big but it's where it's located we' had discussions and then even along 27 there's some there's some possibilities for for that that could be that could be a common you know longterm thing about annexation and Redevelopment of that whole quter could be another thing yeah I I think we're all very excited about what could and what I'm excited about again is seeing some of the projects that we have in the pipeline haven't been constructed yet once those do you get it feeds I even the uh the project um where Chicken Salad Chick is what is that called W station station that that where the lens Stoler used to be that project has been very successful in it's an attractive project and it has brought different players into this community that were not in this community before um and what that makes it makes it easier for the next one I I know I went to the Grand I'll just share this little antidote I went to the grand opening of Chicken Salad Chick that gentleman also owns the Jersey MKS that's in that that strip um and the chicken salad check is the first of its kind um in Maryland it's the first one in Maryland and this gentleman owns eight Jersey mics and and he opened that the Jersey mics at Westminster station 2021 I asked him I said well out of all the places that you could have located a Chicken Salad Chick yeah the first one in the why you pick here why' you pick here and you know what he told me and I thought it was great and real testimony to the people of Westminster and

Franklin Carroll County in general he since he's been there since 2021 he has gotten four managers out of that Jersey Mike and he said he's been so impressed by the quality of the workers that he's been able to get out of of of Jersey Mike in that short period of time and those people have gone on to manage other of his his restaurants to because this is the only one he has here and that's why he chose to put Chicken Salad Chick there and the manager at that location started out at Jersey miks so when that starts happening and people talk about that and they come here and see this kind of stuff and see the other things it builds on and that's what I'm excited about I've always been excited about planning and economic development because this all kind of feeds the engine and you know down the road the things that we will see here over the next five and 10 years but with that said I want Westminster to be Westminster you know people be oh would you like be I don't want to be Frederick I want I was really sad I was really sad when I heard Hans was leaving his location because Hans is like now they're not now they're there I don't know where they're stay now that's a wonderful thing to hear I didn't know that maybe they'll go someplace else long it's not Hamad not until we Annex Hamad oh my gosh say that we expand Empire all right so any any further

comments we had a good meeting tonight so I entertain a motion tojn second to J all Pap say I