Westminster Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. We're here with the city of Westminster, the Westminster Historic District Commission. The evening is Wednesday, August 6 at 6 PM and we are in city hall on Emerald Hill in Westminster, Maryland. We're going to call ourselves. Sorry about that. Okay, good.

Um, we're going to call ourselves to order with our statement of authority. Westminster Historic District Commission derives its authority from chapter 164 article 9A of the city code which is authorized by the Maryland code annotated land use article division one single jurisdiction planning and zoning title 8 historic preservation. The qualifications of the Westminster Historic District Commission are on file at the city administration building at 45 West Main Street and the file is open to the public. I'm going to take a quick minute and ask for roll call for tonight's attendees. Chris Amadori, Kathy Batty, Kristen Masters chair,

Mark Deo, the director of community planning and development. Melissa Thorne, community, sorry, economic development coordinator. We could switch. All right. Great. All right. Well, let's start with um the approval of the minutes summary. Um, have you guys read both sets of minutes? Are we ready to make a motion? We can discuss them. There's no problems. Will they be accepted as presented?

Is there a second? Second motion. Is there any discussion or concerns? Looks like I nominated myself last time to be chair, but I guess you could read it differently. Maybe I am. Maybe I am. All right. If there's no other discussion, can we move to approval of minutes? All in favor? I

and none opposed. Thank you very much Doug. All right, let's move on to old business. We'll start with 147 West Main Street. And Melissa, would you like to start us off on this discussion? Sure.

Organized here. All right. We are discussing the post construction application for 147 West Main Street. On June 4th, the commission reviewed TC2503, the preconstruction application, and found that the proposed work was eligible work under section 143-5, the LP construction services estimate of $7,500 was acceptable, and that the property was an eligible property. Furthermore, the commission granted preliminary approval of the historic tax credit certificate of eligibility for TC2503 in the amount of $750. So, um June 10th, the applicant submitted a post construction application for the historic rehab property tax credits in the amount of $11,83647. So, that was an increase of about 63% if my math is correct or um $3,88647 from the approved um pre-construction amount. So, staff has determined that the original eligible work reviewed and approved by the HTC was labor only to remove paint, sand, and siding, repair siding, clock, and paint. Um, and of course, the increase in the project cost is due to the paint and materials needed for the labor of the project. Um the proposed eligible work was completed within the 24 months after this preliminary approval granted by the commission. Um, so staff recommends tonight that that the commission review the proposed or I'm sorry, the provided post construction application and other documentation provided by the applicant to determine whether number one, the completed work is eligible work and in

accordance with the preliminary approval of the certificate of eligibility and two that the originally approved amount of $7,500 or the updated requested amount of $1,83 36 and $47 is acceptable. And I have some draft motions presented and of course the attached application. And we have the owner and applicant here tonight if you have any questions.

I do. Um were the tasks that caused the cost overrun any different than what was already outlined in the scope? No, it was strictly the material, the paint that was needed and it ended up getting of course the one coat of of primer on everything and two coats of paint on everything with the exception of the alley side which had to go three just because of this the way the sun hits it.

All right. Do we have any questions from any other commissioners? So, to be honest, I'm a historic household nerd, too. And I know my own project that I last ran through this process went over by 50%. And that was a lot. Um, so I understand usually we ask if there's a big change order that it comes through in advance so we have a chance to consider it. But in the big picture of things, this 63% sounds like a lot, but it's really not that much when it comes to this kind of budget. And um in my mind, this is just not out of balance, you know. However, I would say if you were getting state tax credits would not allow more than a 15% contingency. But we don't have to do that. We have our own authority. So what do you guys think?

How is this going to impact other projects? I mean that's significant amount of money that we have not budgeted for.

So it doesn't come out of our back pocket but sometimes comes from the city but it's only 10%. So it it raises the 10% level to like $1,100 rather than $750. sort of a dimmin dimminimous amount when it's only 10%. Now, my project was 167,000. We ran over by 50 grand, but that's because when we ripped up the bathroom, we found that everything was cut through over time. All the joists were cut through over time. And you, it was like one project at a time had cut through. Nobody knew that over time all the joist would be cut through and it was just hanging on by being pressurized and that was priceless central. In fact, the entire side of that house had to be gutted out and redone. So,

yeah. And I didn't have time to think about it because it was just look what we found under the flooring. All right. Well, uh, can I ask for a motion? And it seems to me it feels like our consensus is going towards um number two, which would approve the entire amount of $11,836 as being um eligible and something that we would agree to increase. Do I hear a motion at all? So, I make a motion to approve number two. the draft motion number two. Is that

we have a second? Second. All in favor. It passes. Thank you very much. So sorry that happened, but I appreciate your Thank you guys very much. That was a good learning experience for me also. Well, please come back. Keep us in business here. It's not like we get a commission. Mar

number. Okay. So, we're going to change up the order a little because um I believe you are all here for uh num uh item C 287 East Main Street. Okay, good. So um let's proceed to that and because we don't need to be sitting around waiting for we don't have anyone from the other property. So how about taking it away explain to us what we

Sure. Um so we are looking at a historic structural report uh for 285-287 East Green Street. Um that's how it's all written up in the report because it was originally presented. I think it's actually 285 to 289 I think so

East Green Street there. So, I wanted to make note of that. Um, but the city of Westminster staff met with um the Carol County Bureau of Development Review, Ratcliffe Architects and the building owner ZFP Capital LLC for a present conference back on January 12th of 2023 regarding the proposed demolition and facade renovation concept plans. This 1.25 acre lot consists of two separate buildings that are both on one story. The buildings are used commercially and as you may recall um representatives attended the March 1st 2023 historic district commission meeting for this proposed demolition and it was the architectural hot that we looked at. So the commission discussed the proposed demolition and renovation plans at that time. Um, Jimas with development design consultants submitted the historic structural report via email to staff in July 17th of 2025 and then the report was forwarded to the commission to perform to perform an initial review. Um, we did have discussions about tax credit applications to remind them of that. Um we also had um discussed uh the potential of doing a site visit if necessary. Um so maybe that is deemed best site not. Um so just for that as we have here tonight the stroke structures report was prepared by that plant architects and the report details the proposed demolition of a detailed history of the structure. So we will recommend as staff that the HDC review the proposed structural report and provide a recommendation of the report either with acceptance acceptance upon conditions or denial. Um I do have a PowerPoint slide just to show you the

location of the project again right on the corner of Washington Road and East Green Street. That's near Maddy's restaurant. Um and there's a lot of representatives here tonight for this project. We do appreciate you being here and if there are any questions um feel free to ask all of us. Okay, I do have a couple questions. Um, one just like to see some sort of publish that we did work. I'm ask the historical trust. We're not able to find anything. mutual land transfer ownership

oh I'm sorry we have a company if if that's possible we would like to just see that you know like a little write up of who owned it and it could tell you what maybe happened there before this relatively late factory um whether it was owned like private homes or what the story is that what that land had been used for I think that's a good addendum that should be added I think the original use was the Westminster shoe factory. That would be good to know, too. That's in the report, isn't it? Yeah, that was then. It should be a short deed search. Yeah,

that should be real easy. And you know, you can do that online. Have you Have you ever done a deed search? They probably allow me for that. You just look it up under the Maryland. It's it's a quick quicky quick and dirty thing on something like that. It'd be nice to know, you know, all it was always conveyed as a single parcel. Did it have an original white level number, you know, part of the original planning or is it just outside? I'm not entirely sure. So, I would just like to know that. Secondly, Miss Miss Baby found a small error. Yeah. If you can, can you pull up the historic district map showing where it's located?

Sure. I think they're off by just like the wrong side of the alley. The You're looking for the zoning historic district. No, it's this one. Oh. Um I don't know if I could pull that up easily. Let me look. It's on page seven. Like on the screen, I mean. Oh, yeah. Is all I'm saying. So, just on page seven, it's located incorrectly. We think it looks like it should be located incorrectly. Yeah, it's like on the wrong side of the alley. should be between the alley and green street, but it's on the sort of the north side of the alley. It's actually pointing at parcel on street.

Is that a city of Westminster map? Yeah, the city of Westminster provides this. It's We have that big one we take with us to the fat, right? But I don't know who located it on there. You know, it's somebody. So, so the dot the property Yeah. move over, right? It's just on the wrong side of the alley. Just it just doesn't quite indicate the right property. It's simple like All right. Other than that, it's my humble opinion. Y'all did a great job.

I I'm very impressed. It's hard to make a shoe factory interesting, but we read it all and loved it. and we may be the only three people in the whole city who can tell you that, but we didn't read and love this and it's well presented. Well done. Thank you very much.

I I was just curious because this apparently started like two and a half years ago. Is is property still being used or is it vacant now? Obviously, when these were photos were taken, there was a business. So there's a business still operating out of not out of the building that's being demoed, but the building the larger building behind it is still in operation by an embroidery company, a uniform embroidery company. And the intention is down to the ground.

Just no. So the one building that's that fronts immediately on Green Street, that's coming entirely down. um the what I'll call the shoe factory. Uh there's a small building uh addition along Washington Road that's coming down and about 30 feet of the frontage along Washington I'm sorry Green Street is coming off. So it the majority of that shoe factory is going to remain. Is there a way we can get a very simple stylized plan that just says this will remain so that we know for the long term like

remain 50 years somebody's going to say that old lengthy blank place wanted in the report they have a site plan submitted I think if we just attach that as an exhibit and it'll show it's being red this would go in Then in 50 years when somebody wants to break down all the nice stuff you're putting in next year or two, you want to be able to say, well, there is some historic stuff you should be trying to avoid rather than reinvent the wheel. So, do we have any other questions for this team while we have them?

No. Good job. Good job. Good job. All right. So, now is the time where I ask for a motion and a second. And if we have any further questions, we ask the last little bit before we say this is acceptable or not. So I'm asking for a motion to accept the report. Yeah, accept the report with the two uh additions that we asked for or three.

Refi revised map search and the historic core that's intended to remain. If I move second any other questions hearing none I'll call for a vote all in favor consensus hope we're clear and and thank you use this as an example

good job. Yes. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great night. Thanks a lot. Good night. Okay. Now, as we move on to

item B, we have 219 East Main Street Strike Structures Report Review. Um, I can tell that Dean Hamlin and Associates worked on this. So, um, let me ask Melissa where we are on this.

Sure. Um, so we do have A bit of history. Um, the property owner, Michael Grcer, applied for his demolition permit, um, May 6, and, um, staff and Chair McMasters, met for a site visit right after that time, the end of May on the 23rd. The owner was presented with all of the information on tax credits and presented with the historic structures application. Um just to detail, we've received a few drafts. So the first one being June 2nd and then an update on June 28th. Um the historic district commission formally reviewed the report for the July 2025 meeting last last month and recommended that Mr. Gryer review the report requirements and update the document with more detail. Um, so Dean Robert Candle and Associates was hired to help with this project and prepare this updated report which was submitted um both on July 15th and 17th to city staff. And um that was sent out to the historic district commission for our um typical initial review which was the second initial review on July 30th of this last month. Um, so with this, um, we have had feedback from the owner, Mr. Gryer, about concerns with the, um, the urgent need to remove this structure. Um, and even though he's not able to be here tonight, he's hoping that a decision could be made, um, to move forward with that. And um so staff recommends that the historic district commission review this structural report for 219 East Main Street and provide a recommendation of acceptance, acceptance upon conditions or denial. And the

attached report is available for your review. And if you have any questions, Mark and I will help answer these. So has the scope of the demolition request changed at all? It has not. It has remained the rear summer porch only. Correct. Um I will I guess I could make some special notes. Um the application should be printed out. Kathy, you did say that. I'm trying to remember if it was signed or not, but there was an application for the report

what we've been what we've been doing, but that needs to be added at a minimum. And also um I believe it was Kathy had asked about um finalizing the review for the citations as well as adding the 1877 map of Westminster which was from the illustrated atlas of Carol County which has been included as well as finding a color version of the Sanborn map from is that it says 1877. That's That's got to be wrong cuz there was no sandborn in Yeah, I was going to say that looks wrong, too. So, that's So, that's either the atlas or the wrong date on the sandborn. So, I need to clarify that.

So, but you can see at least the the porch has a frame structure of two stories listed in whichever map that was from. I I believe it was the one he references here on this page eight, but I also don't see a date for that. Maybe it's referenced earlier in the document. Well, we can look at that. Um, this is where it's also referenced on page n. It says 1877.

Okay. Um, and then the the side width was added to the scale drawing, which is only the summer porch. It's not the floor plans of the project. The floor plans is a is an additional expense. Um, I would understand that wasn't deemed because he's he's not taking down the entire house, just a portion of it. The cost prohibited that for him. Um, sure. As far as hiring somebody to do that. So, I think those are the most notable.

I guess I would like to see some of the other sandborns because if you look at the porch on that, it's not the full width of the back of the house. So, clearly that porch has pain. Yeah, this house has been filled in. This is what But this is what they found. The back. No, they're removing the side porch. Do you think that bump out in the back was taken down long ago? Yeah, that's gone. It's the side porch that they're taking down, but I think it was filled in in this little

Are they Are they going to put a new porch up or they just going to take it down? the proposed. Oh, and that didn't that wasn't included in this update either. So, sometimes when you get updates, you lose things, don't you? Yeah. Does this not include his So, he had included in a previous update the maybe the view of the front porch, Chris. And that had included not exactly like a rendering of the of the rear porch, but it was the same materials. It's going to be correct. So, so he's gonna put he's gonna try to duplicate that. He would like to duplicate the summer porch. Okay. Exposed summer.

He's just gonna build it. All right. So, to me, I think we do have the bones of a much improved report. And I do have to say that, you know, I think this is really almost there. And personally, I could go with this as long as there were conditions to add. As Kathy pointed out, we do need some of the later sandborns, especially to explain this gap here. So, there must have been some later construction that should be on a later sandborn. 1919 was the next.

No, there were several. I think the earliest was 82. Then it was like 878 1910. So we we should at least see when this next sandborn appears. There should be like a series of sandborns and and see when this got filled in because that's being proposed to be removed and it would be good to know when it was filled in. My guess you're betting people that it got filled in in the 19s for plumbing. Frankly, they closed in a lot of those second floor backs. So, and since we just talked to the previous applicants, there's no chain of title.

No, we should ask for a chain of title. That's part of our requirements. And I'm assuming you said he did do the actual form because nowhere in this does it even mention forms. I believe we do have that. Yeah. So an application on number three

and also a title sheet is requested so we can see who did the work. Um and that's simple to do a title sheet as also required in our documentation. All right. Anything else that we'd like to see filled in? I think fundamentally we could just get that little piece of history there when the porch was completely filled in. I think we would be in good shape to approve this as documentation. You mean closed enclosed the porch? Is that what you're talking about? No. No. If you if you take a look at this when did this little area and also to correct the figured date. Yes.

See this this is the only historic document they provide for us but we know this is filled in on the side. Okay. So, there would be a later sandborn and they should just present the whole series of sand brims for this building just like they did here so we can see how it could go being enclosed on this chunk. Now, we'll never know when that plywood went out, whatever that was. This looks like this detail just blown up. So, this is the uh whatever sandborn that is I believe it's the 1887 sandborn. That was the one referenced in the original instruction.

But these things I think are easy enough done. These are just a couple little edit editing. I don't I don't think that it's a big deal that the entire building didn't get planned out because they are only demoing that. Right. So to me, this is enough with the corrections. But how do you guys feel? There any other spots you'd like to fill in for history wise? I mean, I think we asked for I mean they already the other information exists. It just has to be, you know, mind added

and then that one. Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, I think if they can can fill in all the those holes then we'll be okay. Yeah. Do you want to entertain a motion? I do want to entertain a motion. What do you guys say? Did you Did you give us a suggestion on motions? You could you could modify the recommendation? Well, why don't we use the last the wordage from the last one where we had my um asked for uh corrections or additions but basically approved it.

Oh, um approval pending the corrections that we've Yes. That was I'll go back and listen to the video if you want to say so moved. Okay, that was number two. Yeah, that was correct. That was resolution or or recommendation number two from the last project, right? So, is that what you're recommendation number two? Was it was the post construction tax credit you're referring to? No. No. You're Are you okay? You're talking about the sheep factory. You mean I'm sorry. You mean item B? Item B. No. Item C. Move to item second. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Shoe factory had the same little issues. So, so was that moved by a commissioner? Wait a second. You're talking about the first um Main Street, 147 Main Street. That was number two that we Right. Yeah. The Green Street. I thought we did that. That's what we've been talking about. Number two. We we aren't talking about that, but we need a motion that models number C, a letter C, item C, which was the Green Street Project.

We just want the same verbiage to go in that is approved, but it has to have these modifications, but Melissa will look it up. She'll figure it out. I guess you could say so. So, that's okay. So I move by. So Melissa will figure it out, but she'll get the verbiage saying that this documentation is approved pending the it's a recommendation of acceptance of the documentation subject to the corrections and additions. Yes.

Was that seconded? Bending the acceptance of the corrections which includes land deed research and the correction of the sandborn map on page nine and inclusion of addition additional sandborn map showing when that entire porch was um created. So it's basically addition of all the sandborns available. Okay. Okay. Any other additions? Yeah. Oh, an addition of a title.

Okay. All right. So, are we ready to vote? All in favor? There's my consensus. Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I'm I'm glad to have the move along. I understand it is a safety issue and of great concern.

Okay. Great. So, let's talk a little bit about business. Yahoo. Item C mayor and common council. We um meeting preparation. So, we we requested a work um shop or a work working meeting with the mayor and county council. And part of that is just to brief them on what our plans have been for the 250th as far as we know for the entire city, not just us, but other organizations as well. And um truly my my goal and hope is that they listen to our preparations and offer to be helpful. And if they have other things that really are within our ability and um you know scope of what we do, you know, we're all on page because we're only a year away at this point, less than a year really. And so it's um I think it's incumbent on us to meet with the mayor and common council just to make sure everybody feels comfortable with the extent of celebrating we're doing and commemorating and um to make sure that you know nobody's disappointed. I think my biggest concern is that we're not doing a parade.

And I think that's one thing people have come to almost expect. And I I just don't see us being able to do that with our small number of people. So, you know, if that's going to be a problem, we're going to have to figure out some other way of of doing that. And I want the mayor and county council to kind of understand we're doing the best we can, but if they have other needs and wants, we're ready to get on board as long as we have the means to do it, some way to do it. Well, wouldn't the whole Carol 250 group be involved in a parade rather than just us? Well, they're for the whole county. We're just for us,

I suppose. Yeah, we're part of that. And if everybody watch, you can't have every town in the county having a parade on July 4th. I would think you have one somewhere. Well, let's bring it up. But you're also only a month away from the Memorial Day parade. So, doing two big ones in that time frame would be a challenge. Yeah. Plus, all the kid groups are at the school. No bands, limited Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. It's just a tough time to have it, right? We'll take that for vacation times. But again, I don't want to

opening ceremony with a town band. I mean, we're going to Well, let's let's kind of bring these ideas to our 250th anniversary topic. But for now, are are you guys going to be able to come on Monday? Yeah, I can. Yeah, if you need it. I do need you. Yes, I believe. the love and um we'll come up with some sort of an agenda. So for this invitation, this is a a 10-minute presentation. Okay. During the council meeting. Oh, sorry. The council.

Yeah. So at the very beginning of the meeting, they have presentations and I believe that's where district commission is going to be placed. So at the beginning of the meeting, you'll be able to present. Um, I will be talking as fast as I can. I will repeat all of us for this. Um, well, I still want you guys, especially since it's right in the beginning. At least it's not at the end where we have to sit all night. Exactly. True. But I I do believe there's plenty of opportunity for the mayor and common council to give some feedback at that point or at least have it marinate, you know, so that they can then provide feedback when they

You said you got rid of all the pens. Do you have a few minutes for them? I I do. Yep. Um maybe we could amend the minutes, the last set of minutes, which has like the breakdown of everything we're doing for the 250th. Where did where did I see that? There was a good breakdown somewhere. I made the may break down of each topic we were talking about. Well, that's all right. Maybe I'll come up with something to hand out.

That's a good idea. Um there had been discussion about inserting sort of um a signature series within some of our larger already existing festivals and strolls. Um do you want to have a film call tomorrow? We can talk about that. Let's do that. Okay. I think we should. Yeah. I'd like to sort of understand what that about. But it sounds like do but but not to the effect that it's like a really heavy lift. It's not a heavy heavy lift. Staff would be willing to help. Great. Of course.

Um, but something that that might dovetail all these things in nicely with the celebration leading up to July and maybe into August. Um, of course, the kickoff is going to be in September this year. Really? Yeah. Well, let's let's let's close out this new business with the meeting of the mayor county council. Do we need to think about that anymore other than Are you going to do the presentation? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'll do it. No problem. Especially if you have a gun to my head, 10 minutes is my favorite kind of presentation because I like just talk as fast as possible.

All right, great. Thank you. End of new business. Um, so the implementation plan, that would be number five on the list. Have we had some fun getting going? So, we announced EAC um was our contractor at the last meeting, but since then I've had a sit down with them and given them the magic box of resources. Um I have gotten contacted like if I don't respond within two hours to my email, Elizabeth is contacting me directly saying, "We're waiting for Chris's comments." And I know I don't think she knows me as well as I thought she did. Or maybe I've changed since I retired. But at any rate, she knows how to get speed dial and it's um I do best with with texting. So um I've already had some comments about the fields that we've putting in um to match them up with the week's book. So, um I was able to image clip that and give them the um uh e-link to the week's book on our city's website. I have to say that in our um discussions, people have been sort of impressed by the fact that we already have a really good base from Christopher Weeks, but it's paperbased on a book that's no longer printed. And so this breaching into the new world of GIS and being able to have information at our fingertips, everybody I've talked to has said that is so cool.

Well, there's a lot more properties that are included in Luke's book just because he did that. So I think you can probably get the rest of those files from by HP or historical society used to have paper copies of all of those in their library in order by because the numbers are random in Whis's book, but they had those files arranged by street numbers. Really? Yeah. So they had a whole file two file drawers that were just like here's Main Street and they're all like here's Green Street and they're all network. I know the Webster's annex didn't didn't make it in the book, but I know all that research was done.

Yeah. So, a lot of his files are are in the library at a HCC, but I they closed they're doing work or something. Yeah, they're closed. Well, I think they'll entertain um appointments.

Okay. Wow. Anyway, um I have put out fuelers through the National Register of folks that still work in DC and asked them if they actually know of anybody who's done this with the National Register. And I the answer is no. This is groundbreaking. And someone told me from the register, we may have the best documented district in the nation. And we're in this sweet spot. We're too small. We don't have enough people who even know to do this as a city. If we're too big like LA or Chicago, there would never be enough resources to do this. So, in fact, we are the perfect little community to get things digitally out there and in the hands of people who paid for it. So, to me, I love it. So, it's been pretty exciting. Um, oh, anything else on the implementation plan?

Um, I just, um, wanted to note that the GIS portion was moving along nicely too with our staff, city staff. Um, and I can see an email floating around about the fields to include. Uh so I wanted to make sure that at a minimum the fields that are evident in the book translate into the um okay so for example whether it's public or private establishment should be on there and they didn't have and they wanted you know everybody wants an example so I clipped an image onto the response

I think I'm late to the party because I was not included in the original email just noting that. Yeah, but that's all right cuz you have it handled and I trust you. So, I'm totally fine. Well, carry on. Seriously, wrong because you're the city advisor.

Well, we're working on contracts behind the scenes and agreements behind the scenes to make everything official official. And that's coming along just as you would expect, but it's coming along and uh we're we're just excited. We we make making notes to our downtown business association about it and um looking forward to the community outreach aspects of this project. So, we have already done a little bit of community outreach um quiet unofficially. Um, one of the folks that I've worked with with Robert Men School has offered to be an adviser on the African-American side of it, which is the hardest part because there's the least amount of documentation. And so, that contact has already been offered to a EAC and I'm hoping they'll follow us through on that. Um, unfortunately the original Robert Men school on on um, church and Charles Street is just outside the historic district by a spitting distance. Um, I know and of course the current Robert Moden which many people remember fondly is just outside the historic district. So we need to start making a list of stuff that we would like to add some point as an addition.

So because that would be in an addition or it's a different application um along with William Winchester home which I've been reading about recently and it was built before William Winchester and he bought it by the Winters family. So it's it's older than I thought it was. Well, the white family level. Yeah. Yeah. If you've got Carol's Heritage, Joe Getty's book, there's a lot on place level and it's restoration in there. Interesting.

All right. So, anyway, it it's it's been going along well. Contractor certainly has a drum beat and is pushing things along um as quickly as they can.

Great. I'm sure the rest of the commissioners will be involved with doing some of the editing and um proofing at some point. All right, 250th National Anniversary. Let's hit our topics. How we doing on the street signs? We're good. Um slow and steady, right? Wins the race. We have um an image that was so we we've been in discussions with our streets and roads team who are willing to install signs if we get the signs. Um we've reached out for one quote and it was pretty high for all of them as to be expected. So so we had had the GIS team look at all of them which amounted to 157 signs. Um and that includes the double ones um as you can see in this image. But the I guess the question is I think we I I think I should ask or request um that there is a list determined of the others like maybe just Main Street as a backup plan if we're not able to do them all at once. Maybe it's a phased project but this um so so this is of course in Tony Town but this was the the one that was motioned to be the best ones we're looking for. Um, but we I don't believe we discussed what happens when it it's the double. So, if you guys are okay with the same double look, um, the bottom as well, because a lot of the intersections of course have two signs. Um, if you would be okay with that. Our streets superintendent wanted to make sure that that was something you'd be okay with.

So, I mean, but you have the two. You've got the cross streets on. What's the bottom? I would ignore the bottom. That's post office. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was going to say decoration on the bottom one and decoration on the bottom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Fine. Like we should get a deal for having a big Sure. that. But yeah, so we can talk about that. I just don't feel comfortable saying prices out loud in case we get we want to make it the most competitive bid. I don't want to share that. We don't and we don't really need to know. So, okay, that's fine. Okay.

Yeah. Great, Melissa. This is great. I can see it happen. I just think this is so important for people to know where the historic district even is. Anything else on signs? Um, I still haven't heard about the welcome signs yet. Um, they should be coming in soon, I would imagine, because that we ordered those the end of June. So I guess they have another month. I think it might have been a two month. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. And who puts them in? Our own people. No, they will. The part of the contract is they'll they install it. Okay.

Cannot wait. Cannot wait. Okay. Commemorative plaques for revolutionary era homes. We looked at that at all. Grace was taking the lead on that. I think we're still waiting for some sample or Okay, I think I might have to step up and start thinking hard. I kind of know what I want. That'll make it easier for maybe maybe I'll figure out something because I I'm already picturing it in my head. So, but some somehow I don't think she'll be terribly upset. Okay, then you move on to

Well, do we have a list of the I can't recall. Do we have put together a list of the revolutionary? Okay, we do. Okay, we have our baby. We know exactly how many we need and yeah, it's less than 40. Okay, just what I'm envisioning is just little brass blocks um with the logo on it. And that's assuming that all property owners are willing to put in their buildings. We should we should probably put a letter out to the for asking for a response if you're willing to the only the only one talked about as an exception was one at the William Winchester's home because he's outside the district but definitely an important

yeah that actually was here during the American Revolution. So missing that one would be kind of tough. And we do they're not in the city, but they do we do service them water and sewer. But they're not So we might be able to make an exception. Honorary. Yeah, I know. They're not in the district, but they're not even they're not Oh my land. Oh, let's make the weirdest border. I know. Weirdest borders. Just say they are. Yeah, question. We've we've just won. These are all honorific. So that's fair. Honorific. Okay.

Okay. Commemorating the U bell sign in Belgrove Square. So that's been ordered. And did did I hear it had arrived already at the city maintenance building? Yes. So it's here. I I should have checked today because I wasn't around last week. Um they were determined they were going to put it in just the post and cover it. Yeah. Or they were just going to put the post in and leave the top off. So there might even be a post in the ground.

Somebody should drive by. and the Daughters of the American Revolution have um sent out invitations for September 20th, 2:00, I think, 2 o'clock. And um I I've got an in with the person who's sending out all those invites. So, if there's anyone special you want, it's an invite. I don't know that we're doing any paper invites, all invites. And um we do have a proclamation drafted by the D ladies nationwide to go with this sign. And we had asked Melissa to ask the mayor if she will read that proclamation.

And I've reached out to our city administrative assistant who is doing that. So you did get did you get a draft of it? I haven't seen a draft. No. Okay. Because that exists. Okay. Yeah. Send it over to us. Yeah. And you if you're going to ask mayor to read it, you might want to give her the copy of it. It is prepackaged, you know, for sure. Says how wonderful the D is. But that proclamation, it's not up on a horse and go off and read the proclamation. No, the DR is not requiring that. However, you know, I know we have a certain format for our proclamations

and I'm certain this is not going to match that, but it might be closed.

And this what the pearls we all have to break out our fascinators. And so, um, it'll be a basically pretty short program. We're trying to keep it less than 40 minutes um because we're not asking the city to provide us with seats or anything like that. So even 30 minutes would be good. And um I know that our region is handling all the officios asking them to keep their comments really really short because you know as a standing thing people get at least their shade there and there are a few chairs there in the benches in the background.

You don't want chairs or an area that's set up or anything like that. Um I'll double check with Jennifer. She'll want some podium sort of thing in the PA system. Yeah. And probably a few chairs for the officials, but we weren't going to ask for chairs for the multitudes. Okay. Yeah. Remember, we met on site and discussed these particulars, but she had the podium. She was going to bring her speaker system. Angel, we need to understand what is she bringing? What does she need us to do? Is she bringing the chairs specifically for them? Do we want additional chairs out for the public? Let's talk. We can link back with her. I'll make sure to do that. At least let the public know that they need to bring chairs.

Yeah. I went to that in over the jail for the lynching project. Oh, yeah. I didn't tell anybody there were not any chairs there. And for like an hour and a half, people were kind of wilting in the sun. Yeah. I always put my chair to stuff like that, but if you have to hike away from parking, you know. All righty. talk with Jennifer because she's got this whole thing figured out and she's the regent. I'm just helpful. That's all I'm being is helpful. We provided her with a list of names for invites. I don't know. Have you done that? No, I think when you talk, we need to

I know she already sent me her invitation that I sent to Erica to invite. So, if there are others to be invited, I believe I did ask her to include them as well. Erica to reach out to those folks. Yeah. And I Yeah. So I I'm definitely have on my list to follow up with both Jennifer and Erica to make sure that the right folks are included. And if again if there's anybody else you would like us to reach out to be the city, we can do that as well. So please let us know. I'm trying to pack just this as a partnership because you guys, the city of Westminster are contributing quite a bit. the installation is worth quite a bit

and um you know it's your land basically. So I'm trying to make sure this but it it does sort of tend to become a D function. So it's you got to kind of keep bringing the wheel back into the middle of the road, you know. Yeah, sure. There's the political side. You invite some Carol Carroll County people invite. Yeah. So well, we'll talk to her. We will be inviting um some state representatives too probably. Yeah. Um Jennifer's open to that kind of thing. There's a difference between inviting them and inviting them to speak. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's I think where she's worried about getting too long a list because speakers tend to blow V8 and people are trying to not wilt. But it is September 20th. Maybe the weather won't be so horrible.

Yeah. Um and we did kind of decide on no refreshments. We uh we approached the church of the brethren and they are a peace church and so they won't be celebrating the 250th this year. I'd be ashamed because they have great facilities. So almost anyway um that's where I know we are 20th of September. Please put it on your calendar. I hope to see y'all. I I think I'll be there. I was actually scheduled to be in Michigan that weekend, but I'm beginning to think more and more I'll be there because I'm going to be coming back the 17th from Greece. And help me remember, I won't be here for the next HBC meeting press. What um month are we talking about?

September. Next September already. Oh, look. That would be the third. We'll put that on the end. Commissioner comments.

We'll talk about that. All right. So, um, back to our list of 250th preparations. The Liberty Tree Plaque. Miss B has worked Baby Batty has worked with us on some words smithing. And, um, Kathy, do you want to talk a little bit about what you've done? Um, yeah, you guys asked me to sort of play with it, so I did. So, I think I I took the original and I gave a few more options. Not sure they're any better than the original. They're just a little different. Um, and then I had the crazy idea of doing something, you know, Monty Python. And now for something completely different. Um, I do really like this, but this is going to be costly.

Not terribly. I'm not picturing anything as huge as Civil War trail markers. You wouldn't consider like it doesn't have to be that big. You can make them you could make a smaller one that sort of those are the two small stakes rather than a huge one like the trail markers. Um, if you've looked at the one the house one behind Shelman, you know, that's just a pedestal and it's still pretty big. So, you can do something on a smaller scale. Um, I just I have to admit I didn't know much about liberty trees and not being local, I knew absolutely nothing about Maryland's liberty. Um, so I kind of got caught up in the story and went down the rabbit hole of research and

it's cool. It is cool. So, uh, so it was just a concept if you know if we want the smaller simpler one, I'm good with that. Do we I was going to it's so we we're actually getting like Never mind. Apparently from this tree apparently these are descendants of a descendant. So like grandchildren of the grandchildren. So would we want to say that in here? I mean for something like

I mean it's a it's a whole statewide project. Um and again I didn't know I didn't want to go too far. But I mean if it's if that's the point of it not just like a popular trait like I thought maybe that would be No, they are it says liberty tree descendant. I mean they are right indirectly you know they're a grandchild. I guess you would say. Um, okay. But I thought it was really cool that the original tree was there until 1999. Because that was, you know, when I read the first one, that was that, you know, my questions were, is it still there? So, it was just a thought as

I love this, you guys. To me, this is right in tune with maximalist. But yeah, they kind of do. You can pretty much It's gonna be more than a little plaque. I say that. Well, we could guess and say, "Can you guys come up with the money to do this?" I envision this is two to three grand. No. Can't imagine we spent that much on the one for the L house. That was a an Eagle Scout project. So, and there was there's a company down in Elersburg that did that for us. Are you getting signed? All these signs for the bell robe and the street signs and all that. That's not coming from the same company, right? No, they competitively bid through Melissa.

Okay. They're all different. Okay. I was going to say because maybe they give us a bite or something on all sides. Or, you know, if we use a local company, maybe they'll give us some kind of a discount as being part of the 250th or maybe the uh Peril 250 group would I don't know if they have any funding. Probably not, but you never know. No, but funding. I just found a announced chunk of money from Preservation Maryland on the 250th. So maybe this would apply apply to that. the assistance on Main Street. Yeah. One that is for commercial buildings only.

I didn't read the details. Well, so you ought to have fun with that. I I had to send it to you. Yeah. But um so this was really just you know an idea kind of a different concept of which do we like which do we I love this. What do you guys think? I think that's for the moon on Monday. I love this. What do you guys accept? Do you think it's too much? I mean, the city has made quite the contribution to this whole thing so far. I think it's your presentation before the mayor county council. Shoot.

Again, I keep telling you this is your chance. Don't I wouldn't hold back. I mean, you could just say no, right? Exactly. Right. Um, so then and some you might lose some or you might get lucky and get them off. So, who knows? You won't know unless you bring it on. Absolutely. Well, some of this stuff is already ordered. So, like what are they going to say? Yeah. It's too late to say no. But

I think it's important to show what you've accomplished, what's happening that this is just let's continue this pace. This is the next thing on the list. So, yeah. And this link at the bottom, Melissa, is just the link to Library of Congress where you can get the high resolution version of the image. Lovely. Because I just downloaded the smallest one and throw it in as a sample, but they had a really high resolution t that you can download. And I there were colored images on Google images. They all seem to be from the St. John College archives that I didn't want to get into getting rights and licensing and stuff. So that's why I went with something from the Library of Congress. And this particular image is rights free.

Great. Quickly, let's address the logo issue. Melissa, have you found out any more than we heard at the 250th convening meeting? Only from Kathy and I discussed and we did find some online research that it says it's what is it called? Public domain. Public domain because it was created by the government. Right. So that is listed. However, do you remember the lawsuit information? What was that? So that was Michelle Joselyn who is the state coordinator for the 250th and she claimed in the meeting that the American 250th folks came after Carol County for using part of its image. Carol County, Maryland.

I didn't think it was Carol County. Is that the one it was? Cuz that's the part where I spaced and that would have been a good time. I thought it was Lexington. No. Or something here. It was us. Not us, but the county because when I know when this came out, they were like, "We want everybody to use this because we want to brand it." So, um maybe a call to Michelle for um clarification would really be important. Yeah. Before we get this plastered all over the place, take it off because I love our logo. We really worked hard on this and I think it's really quality. That's why I wanted to use that issue

the color one here. I didn't happen to have a copy of the color version, but it also lets us add some color to the black. Well, I understood that that commission on a federal level is not really fedally funded. They are private group because there is really no federal funding for this commission. So, they are sort of like a friends of kind of group and friends of do hold copyright to all kinds of stuff. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Maybe I'll call Michelle and we should we should do like a conference call. Yeah, you're gonna want to know because you're going to be wanting it

on walking tour brochures and pens and everything else. So, you gave them all away. But you see, I mean, they were encouraging everybody to you can download the logo for free and different sizes and more formats and over um we've modified it. Yeah, that might be the reason they don't like it. The modification it might be to be the same. Yeah. Did Carol County modify it and that's what they're claiming that a little foggy.

Okay. I don't remember Carol County doing that because they had a student doing a logo which has been used and then they had another graphic designer do different variations for every single C community in the county. Well, and like the D has a version of this with their initials on it. So does the S. Okay. A lot of places have adopted this and added their name. Explain that what Michelle says. Yeah. um just because it was brought up and um we should address it because we do not want any kind of negativity or blowback on the city

because of our activities. Yeah. Negative against us. I would say it's the reverse. Yeah. Yeah. There's some confusion there. That's for sure. Okay. So, this is great, Kathy. Love it. All right. Love it. Love it. Love it. Okay. Event programming for the 250th meeting updates. Do you have anything for us? Um, I really don't. I actually printed out our 250th what where we were at with the heart of the Civil War Heritage Area. If there's anything noting I'll just say that I have a copy of notes from that meeting if anyone's interested in seeing them or I can send them out via email.

Yeah. So, as far as official official, I think the Belgrove Square event is our first official city 250th event. Even though Lexington Concord was like last April, Bunk Bunker Hill was like last May. So, we're a little late, but not that late. Most people are going to think we're ahead because of the Declaration of Independence will be next year. So,

hi. And then we thought we had completed our logo, our entrance signs and our May proclamation. So we will continue under that. Um any questions? Melissa, do you think now is the time to talk a little bit about that convening meeting we went to or should that come under uh commissioner activities?

No, it's fine. Now it's fine. So Melissa and I went to Heart of the Civil War Heritage meeting convening for the 250th down in Mount Erie and um it was a room packed. They did not have enough chairs for everybody there. I was pretty stunned at seeing how much participation was happening. Was it built to be just Carol County or was it all three counties? All three. Okay. So, people came from Washington County and Frederick. Um, but the room was clearly not big enough and because it was in Mount Area, it was heavily Carol County. Um,

and I have to say I've never been more proud of being in the city of Westminster because we had concrete plans. We started, some finished, and some planned. And we had a litany. I couldn't even get them all out, you know, and the other municipalities and folks that talked about what they were doing still seem to be in that vague foggy. We're thinking about this. We're going to have a group doing something, you know, or we're just here to listen. New York City.

Yeah. Yeah. I know of no other municipality who has done even who's even pledged to do one or two of the items we've done. So, Westminster is on the map.

Plus, that group inspired me to think about other ways we can leverage in that there are going to be other Liberty trees like the one up at Union Mills. There'll be one in Frederick with the D. And I was thinking we could do some sort of linkage where we have some part of the a website saying, you know, if you want to visit all the liberty trees in in our little area or in the county or something in the heritage area, this is the, you know, where you can visit all the liberty trees. I don't know. Somehow I think a driving tour to go look at trees, saplings might have a little bit of by the time we get this done. They may be bigger.

They'll be four foot. They'll be four foot high and two foot height. So yeah, I mean it's good that people would know where they are, but I'm not that big going to be a big seller. I can't I'm I'm willing to give it a If it's a digital thing, it's still So maybe we might want to think about a digital tab. However, just like we have the email digital tab for um 250th events. Now these others like I know has when you said the D plenty. So are they putting signs and markers or anything on them? They're just

as far Oak saplings that people don't know our Y. Honestly, whatever we do, they can copy if they can if they can manage it. We're trends. Honestly got to say we're just wait. So I don't want the mayor coming to kind of be aware that this is spectacular. I want to thank you.

Well, you're the best cheerleader. I should say glass. Let's do what we think it's going to show that here's a thank you. Thank you for letting us put this on. I think it look it was talking about office director destination market that's county position for tourism and I always kind of forget that a heritage area is education and adults literally and I always have to pinch myself and you know

I mean it's true it's just so much easier for me to focus so it was it was an interesting presentation talked a lot about things that put together a lot of concepts that weren't necessarily new to me, but it was all kind of condensed into one presentation. It was interesting. Anybody else? Okay. So, that little moment of pride was fantastic. So if there's nothing else under the 250, we can move on to commissioner comments.

Comments. How about it? No. Must get me to come back. How about it, Mark? Anything new? So staff has been not me, but my staff, I'm thanking you guys for I've been going up and down Main Street taking pictures of signs. Um, you know, all signage, uh, signs have been committed, signs that are out, uh, blinking signs. I've asked for videos of these. Um, this is all going to go together for, uh, future presentation with the mayor council at a work session. [Music] Did we plan on being there?

I believe it's open. So, yeah, when I have a date and I I'll ask I have my department head tomorrow. bring that up. But it's a work session I believe is open to sell. But you know that Green Street project that's coming up that we discussed earlier today um 287 East Green Street, 285 to 289 East Green Street, they made a point of saying their signs were going to be painted on the walls so they wouldn't be sticking out. I mean, that's really good citizen behavior of of being very cognizant of not having signs that are not sympathetic with the historic district. We want to catch people doing the right thing.

And I'll put the offer out there again. If there if there are sign regulations that you're familiar with, specifically historic district sign regulations that touch on lighting and anything send that my way. More eyes, more people looking. I don't remember. You could have sent them to me. Send them again. I'll send it again. My email's been wonky. Was some of that incorporated into the sign commission or whatever it was a couple of years ago here? No, it's the sign commission. We It was does it differ?

It's is and isn't. So the sign commission and that that's coming back around to that was looking at globally the city as a whole districtbased not contentbased and you know if you have a commercial business you get x number of square feet. So, I was looking at that. It did talk it out got a little bit into the design of it, but not really. Uh, you know, other than what is a wall-mounted, what is a blade sign, what is a monument sign, but it didn't get into this type of detail. Um, there is the standards for renovation that do talk more about signage that we do hold people downtown. uh that's subject to and downtown is the only place that blade signs really listed as an allowed sign type.

Um and that's how in downtown we've really held the no illumination interior illumination of signs. Uh you have exterior but not interior. Again, it's it'd be nice if that was more part of the actual ordinance itself. So, so I think this the sign we'll bring that back up, but um I think this is more related to historic downtown signage downtown which may be treated, you know, differently than you would obviously historic district versus something in 140 that say the virtual strip center.

Yeah. How roots or something. Not to say that some of these elements shouldn't be equally uh required throughout the city, but I think downtown is the start. All right. I do have one thing to add. Sure. Um it appears that the Carol 250 fall History Expo is coming up on October 4th, which is a rebranding of the fall history expo

that usually happens in October. Um, and I wanted to uh see if there was interest in attending and if so, I might need to order some more um swag items. Um, so this is Saturday, October 4th from 900 a.m. to noon and that is at the library or the exploration comments. So, I know I have a conflict on that day. Okay. Uh, standing conflict. Um, what time is it? 9:00 a.m. to 12 p.m. I could I could possibly be there from 8:30 to 9:30 to set up.

My Saturdays are chewed up with probably my other commitment. So I I I have to play that by ear. I mean, normally my Saturdays right now I'm committed, but in the fall it's sort of week to week and I I just have to see what the schedule and there's two commissioners not here, but just wanted to put that was like I knew it was coming up and I hadn't looked at the date yet. So, yeah, I should be able to do it. As I recall, it's not really overwhelming people. So, ought to be able to handle it. The only problem might be clean after that tote definitely won't fit in my car. Oh my goodness. We did away with that tote. That tote's too heavy and too It's just

too much. Doesn't work. No. Yeah. You need to put less stuff in. Yeah. You could probably put in half the brochures for half. But I I understand it's very easy to make that kind of storage year round for stuff and then when the event comes, you just grab it. But we have four times as many brushes as we really need. Or keep that one and just have a smaller one that you actually and we got a um like a wheelie cart that works much nicer. Yeah. Sorry about that. We tried we tried to be helpful. It backfired on us. Too big for my little car. But

yeah, I didn't I didn't mind anything except for that last heft up into the back of my car. That glass I heard some of those indication kits at HSC. No, no, not industrial or none of those. Not really industrial strength.

All right. So, I'm the last one to make comments. So, yes, I will be out of town that first week of September. The I might I might I might possibly be here. Let's put it that way. I know I'm I'm in Greece by the fourth. So, I have not gotten that 100% sure if we leave third and I have to be out of here by then or if we leave the 4th. But, um, I'm going to be out of town and I'm going to be out of town until at least the 17th. So, I just think y'all ought to have a plan. If I just end up saying, "Look, I'm in Dallas at 9:00 at night. I can't be here at 6 on video from the airport. So, you're like,

"Yeah, I haven't done that. I have done Zooms where I'm literally traveling somewhere, but I don't think that'd be appropriate for this." So, Chris, you're vice chair. Yeah. Can we we can talk can we talk about the schedule off live? Sure. That's just have to make sure we have anything else for the good of the group. I think we had a good night tonight. Saw some really much approved historic structures reports. So that's great. Um so with