Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Tuesday June 16th meeting of the Waynesboro City Planning Commission All right a motion on the agenda

I'll second.

All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. The motion carries. Meeting minutes from April 21st.

I move that we approve the April 21st meeting minutes.

I'll second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none, the motion carries. We approve the April 21st minutes. That brings us to Mr. Cockerell, the man of the hour. Yes. For our Waynesboro Together Comprehensive Plan Update Land Use Discussion. All right.

Great. Well, we can pick it up where we left off last time, but anything to get started from staff?

I don't think so. Okay.

Great. Well, last time we laid out an agenda. We talked a bit about the draft land use goals. do a second round of those, a little bit polished based off of our notes from last time. I think we had great discussion, so there was a lot of good material in there that we pulled from. We did review neighborhood boundaries, and there was some discussion on approach with that. And we worked our way down to defining gateways and talking through those. So that was where we left off. And I was going to pick up with some kind of updated goal draft, very draft statements. But just if we're... at the eye doctor and using the bigger lenses to figure out one versus two, one versus two, on the bigger side of our scope, this might be a slight smaller lens. We still have a few lenses to go, but just make sure we're in the right neighborhood in terms of direction from what we heard from you all. I did want to show you that, Jeff. We did. nicely done i appreciate it yeah so we got a little band over here and we figured we weren't sure the size of the trout that that would be dropped so we do have a crane in this one um but all joking aside i was just giving a presentation through vcu talking about the importance of having community events and that really can be a real driver for economic development I think it was New Albany, Mississippi, I believe, that they had a farmer's market once a month, and on days they had the farmer's market which drove people there, sales receipts went up 25% in the local businesses along Main Street. So there's plenty of cases about that of having events really helping to bring people to your Main Street businesses here. So we thought we would be responsive to your request, but also from the economic development side of events like this are things that you can really build off of. All right, so last time we had six goals, and there's some elements of these that you all seemed to like. There's some elements that were fine, but maybe needed a little bit more polishing. And there were some areas where there was a lot of overlap. These really seem more as six different options, but just kind of a starting point. We had grow a compact and connected fiscally responsible pattern. One of the things we talked about is getting some density in some parts of the city when maybe the priority is more downtown and getting reinvestment in that specific area. So what densities are appropriate in different parts of the city? We had, as a second one, reinforced downtown and the South River Corridor is a mixed-use place. We had renewed commercial corridors and underused sites into more productive places. We had strengthened complete, stable, connected neighborhoods. We had some discussion here about investment in the neighborhoods while trying to avoid gentrification in those areas. We had some discussion about protecting natural resources and reduce exposure to environmental risks. And then we had shape, development, and distinct, well-defined places that fit their context. There is some overlap here. There's also discussion, going back to you, Jeff, about the importance of outdoor recreation to the local economy, but that is a land use factor as well. So what we have here is kind of a new set of options. It's not far from final, but this is hopefully... Hopefully a refinement, but you can tell us with this second data point if we're heading in the right trend here, the right direction. But if going off the notes came up with one goal on land use would be focused growth downtown while preserving the South River as a natural corridor. This is something that's been consistent going back through the 70s. This is very clearly your North Star kind of action here that's been part of land use all the way through. So this is direct the city's most compact mixed use in a higher density development. Whoopsies. I don't know what I just did. Oh, the computer's starting.

Oh, I didn't mean to bring the virus from work. Oh, Lord. Yeah, okay. I thought I left all that at work. twice I was in the middle of writing a document and my computer decided to update.

Whew.

Well, I will say, on downtown, that seems like that's pretty solid. The second one is strengthen neighborhoods through compatible infill and better connections. So that's kind of consolidating the couple goals here. That was protect and improve existing neighborhoods with safe streets, nearby services, housing choices that fit their context, and a stronger walking, biking, transit, and street connections to downtown schools, parks, and daily needs. So really focus more on that neighborhood piece. In the plan, that really could be where we have some of that discussion on neighborhoods that we talked about last time. The third one is to renew corridors. We'll talk about entrance corridors tonight. Renew corridors and underused sites without weakening downtown. So that was something that really came up. We want to have strong corridors here and neighborhood centers, but we also don't want to take from the downtown area either. We don't want to compete with different parts of the city. we had here of reinvest in aging commercial corridors vacant buildings that came up quite a bit through public engagement and underused properties so they become safer more attractive and more productive while um reserving the strongest mixed use intensity for downtown and other clearly defined active activity areas so going back to again having the right density in the right places in downtown and some of these corridors seem to be the focus there.

With that one, I know one thing that we had mentioned and talked about, or at least I know I had expressed, was what does that reinvestment not only in communities look like, but also downtown? Because that was something that I saw when reading the different land use and consequences, was that there was this drive for downtown, and there were some what seemed to be good ideas and I don't know if they implemented it, but there was one maybe where you taxed, it was a special tax to increase purchase attractiveness, but I don't know if the city went through with that in 2008, but just incorporating those ways of what the reinvestment would look like.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's, you know, when we're looking at, during the steering committee, we had discussion about what's the importance of that downtown boundary. And I think that's part of it, of just kind of where to invest that infrastructure, because we have limited resources. And with those limited resources, we have to prioritize where are we going to put that. And when we make public investment in infrastructure, that... you know almost across the board is going to then spur private sector investment in those areas so of making sure if you want certain densities in certain areas that that's where we put that investment So there's that. Item three, four is build Waynesboro's outdoor identity while protecting natural resources. So those things go hand in hand together. We have protect the South River, flood plains, streams, slopes, open space, and sensitive lands while strengthening Waynesboro's role as an outdoor recreation community connected to the Blue Ridge, the Appalachia Trail, Shandow National Park trails and river access. to kinda like really sum it up into four clear, concise points, it's grow downtown, support strong neighborhoods, renew our corridors, and then build off of Waynesboro's outdoor identity. Four clear, concise statements for the land use goals. Using a giant trout as really the symbol of how these come together.

Will, in any of the discussions about revitalizing downtown, I know that sometime in the future, the Natural History Museum is going where the old advanced auto parking lot and our farmer's market is right at the moment. Has there been any discussion about if you're bringing people downtown, how they... how they get here and where they park. Has anybody brought up any ideas about that?

It hasn't come up so much through the process yet.

The only thing I can say about the parking is that the city doesn't have a parking requirement for downtown because our desire is that there would be walkability and the density of development there to allow for that to happen. whether we're there yet or not, there could be disagreements about. I will say that the museum is required to have a certain, as a state entity, they're required to have a certain amount of parking, whether it be onsite, but they've also asked us to provide some adjacent numbers. but as far as our land use discussions and our stakeholder consult discussions have gone there haven't been a lot about parking um there have been some you know recent state code changes that further reduce our ability to require parking and i think that's more on the residential side if um if I'm reading that correctly. But yeah, parking is always something that people feel strongly about either way. But as far as our downtown core district is concerned, we do not have a parking minimum requirement in hopes that the businesses will provide the parking that they feel like they need and that we'll have kind of the density and walkability there.

You know, because one way to get parking people downtown, I know Waynesboro does not have one now, but in the past they had, I believe, two, maybe three train depots. And that way people from Charlottesville or wherever could ride the train down here, get off. the track is right there a quarter of a mile away and they could walk to downtown and then when they're done to catch a train back to wherever they come from. But I don't know if the city or the railroad is, you know, thought about that or anything? Because I know Stanton's got the train depot right there in the middle of downtown. You step off and you're there.

Yeah, so, I mean, I've heard a lot of people bring up the idea. I have not directly dealt with the railroad as far as these things are concerned, but it's my understanding that, you know, that is a, you know, a really far out there idea that we might not, that might never come to fruition. What might be more likely would be for us to think about, as far as a land use perspective is concerned, where is some kind of potential bus hub in our downtown area. That's something we don't have currently. And Stanton recently remodeled the Lewis Street hub downtown. So I see that as being something more immediate or more within the 20 year time frame of the plan is that maybe we would want to be thinking about like a downtown bus hub.

Could you incorporate the parking ride over by Chick-fil-A where the Afton Express works out of and then have just a local bus that picks people up there, brings them downtown, drops them off, and takes them back?

yeah it would have to be working with the cspdc um in identifying that new stop and then obviously um you know finding a parcel or a location for that but as far as as we talk about land use in this discussion that's something that we could definitely you know try and identify potential areas for

Thank you Yep, that's a very technical It's a very technical term kaput I

I don't know how you can petition like say Richmond and just say, you know, I see the signs that go up on the interstate. Can we get ourselves designated the fly fishing capital of Virginia and put signs up as you're entering into Waynesboro's port from 94, 96, or 99 stating that, so people may not be coming into our community, but they're driving by going, oh, this is the fly fishing capital of Virginia. I should check it out. I don't know if that's viable. I don't know how to get that designation. Can you just put up the sign and ask for... Leslie, you shouldn't need that network interface.

I don't want to use my secondary computer.

When it says keep trying, after you log in... You have to do the whole email because it's not your computer.

Yeah. So that box will pop back up in just a second. Maybe.

Working with some other communities that issues come up about. See if it'll do it, yeah. You can work with VDOT to get a sign on the interstate. There was one community that they said it was off the interstate, and they said it was a certified business-friendly community. And I asked somebody, I said, so what is a business signage on the interstate.

That's odd, because at UVA, you don't have to type in the whole password on somebody else's computer, because that network's all tied together. It recognizes the first part of it. Oh. Good Lord, look at all the networks here. Wonder if they, up on YouTube, they got the multicolor panels that we are experiencing technical difficulties.

You going to any of the matches? Yeah. We thought about it, but that's an expensive time. watching it on TV yeah I heard the tickets are very very pricey especially the ones in New Jersey and New York because it's rumored that Prince William is coming

See, the trouble is they're competing with the College World Series.

In the United States, across the world, nothing competes with FIFA.

No, FIFA rules the world, but in the United States, they play second, third, and fourth level. I'll tell you what. Oh, I think this one went kaput. Oh, boy.

Okay. Well, I think we can have a quality dialogue without the PowerPoint, but I was loving the rendering that you were teasing us with two weeks ago of what we were going to see up here on the gateway, so I'm curious to see that. We can still have a dialogue. Yeah, we can still.

I think now we've got it.

Yeah, man, probably. I don't know where you saw that, but probably.

Hi. Uh-oh.

All right. You should be good. It's going to take a minute to set up the profile.

I don't think I need to get it. I'm just going to plug this guy in. Yeah.

All right.

Thank you.

Sorry for all the trouble.

No, it's okay.

Things go kaput. Yeah. And that's what computers are built to.

It should be in there.

It was in the computer.

It went kaput.

I ate at 1 and then ran at like 4.30. And that gave me enough time to shower and then come here. So that'll be the only thing.

He was a beat man when I seen him. Said he went to Washington Sunday night, didn't get home till four o'clock.

forging ahead if we it's yeah I have I have the same thought I have a city laptop here but it's not um I don't have I don't have I have to get flash drives I have to use a USB-C dongle and I don't think mine isn't that bad

Well, as we're getting that figured out, we did look at the, at the, at the Broodsham's property, I'm probably pronouncing that wrong, Borsham. We did do a site analysis on that. So we have slides on that too to show steep slopes, soils, connections and so forth to take a look and see what's what's possible there on that site so I know that last time we talked one of the things you all said was that we really need to have a plan for that property and if we don't have a plan coming out of the comp plan then we then we've missed something so we do have an analysis which it's a little hard to share verbally but will say that the next thing we wanted to to discuss was the different gateways coming into town here so we We talked about there being six different gateways really into town, including coming down up South Delphine. So that being one of you get off the interstate and come into town that way. Certainly with the Gateway being kind of a face of the community, it is certainly the first thing you see as you come into town before you even get to downtown. So we'll show some images of that. We'll look at Jones Hollow coming in off of Afton. And, of course, you've got the property that we're discussing here on the left as you come into town. You know, we've got some billboards there on the side of the road. You make your way down towards the... down to the brewery as we come into town here. We have North Delphine coming in from this north side of what we see, so we'll share some images and we'll talk about that. We have Ivy Street coming in from the north with another gateway coming in, which is a little bit more of a rural type of road design coming in. coming in from the west we've got west main street uh... yes can I'm going to send it to you as a OneDrive link because it's a pretty big PowerPoint.

How much of the Burson property is actually in the city limits? The entire thing. The entire thing?

How many acres is that?

If I had to guess, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,500, 4,000. Yeah. 875 acres.

So the pond is 6.6 acres?

Oh, that must not. I'm thinking from Waynesboro all the way up to 64, so that must be two different parcels because it's more than 800 and some acres between Delphine 250 and 64. I can tell you that now. So who owns the other parcel, Jeff?

Okay. Oh. Yep.

I sent that email, so... Do you want me to...

No, I go August chair for a day The New Outlook for Windows.

No, it's okay. I guess we have the slide enhancer thing.

Yep. That's okay, I can just stand.

I can sit right next to it and you can go forward so I can manually do it.

Yeah.

Jeff, you need that as your screen saver. Yeah.

Send that to everybody.

So the folks downtown, some strategies we make downtown, six primary mixed-use growth center in the South River, protected organized fine for this area, aligned downtown growth with infrastructure, as we were talking about, Nigel, about those investments. Expand attainable housing in walkable mixed-use areas. And that came up through all public engagement in downtown area. Using that to help bolster, fill some of those empty storefronts and supporting some businesses to come into play. Talked about strengthening neighborhoods through compatible infill and better connections. Looking at support neighborhoods, scalable housing choices, preserve and reinvest in existing homes. Our neighborhoods improve everyday walking, biking, transit, school access. The school access one came up a lot in the youth survey. Build stronger neighborhood support systems, including child care. Mental health came up with engagement. Strengthen neighborhood safety, maintenance, and pride. So address.

So I'm trying to 1,000 foot view, and I don't want to get us off track here, but are we talking about including something in support of that specific goal, right? So code enforcement, immediately my spidey senses tingle because I think about somebody who goes to court every day. So are we talking about potentially identifying as a goal for the city in the comprehensive plan, providing more resources towards that end?

There's kind of two prongs on property maintenance. One is also programs and assistance that help people get their property improved to help make those improvements in their homes. So you have kind of the code side, but the other side to it is helping to provide resources and assist people to make those improvements on site.

But we wouldn't get as granular in the comprehensive plan as saying,

hypothetically like we have one code enforcement officer we want three like it's never going to get that granular that'd be pretty detailed okay staffing level i mean you can certainly you can include that but um it's probably for the sake of this plan sure i'm just i just want to make sure i understand that the scope yeah so we're a new quarter so this is going to go right into our next item corridors into safer, more productive places. Keep downtown first for the strongest mixed use intensity. We all talk about having certain densities are appropriate, but only in specific areas. Target reinvestment in visible opportunity areas here. Para redevelopment incentives with public benefits. included those corridors, and we had outdoor identity, we had on this one, protect and restore these waterways, floodplain systems, build and connect greenway, park and trail network. That was another thing that came out of our last discussion. Before we have that, treat green infrastructure as So certainly it overlapped with some of the other topics and same themes that we had. But land use is, for a comp plan, really the thing that helps bring it all together. So it seems appropriate to have that.

When we talked about Smith Farm, we talked about the historic goal of the full greenway loop and how that has changed over time.

Has that changed?

And some of it's no longer attainable, and some of it's because of the way some things have been filled about. Is there a current connect the Greenway all the way around plan? Or is that?

So I think we have one, but with this process, we'll definitely need to re-look at pieces, as you mentioned, and to say, like, oh, here's a piece that might be difficult for whatever reason. But, you know, it's my understanding that kind of that conceptual circular route that was identified. in in many iterations of our plan is still the plan there might be little areas that need improvements but for the most part it's continual loop that we're continuing to work towards there As far as I know, there's no major section that we're unable to do, but this would be good to look at and refine further. Hey, Parks and Rec has recognized some issues with this, or we didn't get easements here, or some of those little tweaks.

Yeah, and I think about some of the controversy around the- Phase four. Yeah. and how we maybe can identify some of that stuff so that we set clear expectations, make sure that the comprehensive plan tells us as the planning commission or whoever, maybe it's not us, that we need to, that's obviously been an issue in the past, and how do we identify that and create clear communication about expectations?

Are you talking about having to move the greenway from the river to 14th Street to Ridgeway?

Yeah, that was phase four.

Yeah, I forget what the phase number was, but I know originally it was supposed to follow along the river, and there was some pushback, and it ended up being on 14th Street.

yeah so this process you know in our hopes to get the majority of the community involved it's the Planning Commission recognizing where that alignment is is hopeful to be it's the public recognizing that and then it's council kind of giving that final stamp of approval so that then as we take on development applications apply for grants talk to property owners hopefully you're not having that pushback because you have kind of laid out what the community has identified as the location.

Yeah, because I noticed on there you got Sunset Park connections. I'm wondering with the rail line right there below Sunset Park, in order to address wheels issues of possible conflicts down the road it would probably be good to have some idea of how you could connect the greenway to sunset park because at some point the railroad is going to come into play

yeah so parks and rec is adamantly and um currently working through all of those issues with um you know some of their connections and trail connections that they're planning directly with the railroad i don't think anything's been solved at this point but but it's a continued conversation and yes something that we would include as part of the plan

This is something that popped up in my mind that I was having a conversation with someone about. Instead of public works having to maintain so much of a median in the entrance corridors, what if we could replace the grass with native Virginia wildflowers? I mean, I could see it serving

Yeah, I think

I think VDOT, that's what they did on 64 to cut down on the cost of mowing. They put some of them wildflower beds in there.

VDOT does, I know this only because I deal with people who get the things in the medians on a regular basis, but VDOT does have safety feedback, I think, about the size and scale of trees.

Yeah, they don't allow certain plannings and encourage others. Yeah.

You know, we're working on one project on a road, and the district we were working with wouldn't let us put any trees at all. They were saying that, you know, people were hitting and blocking views, but of some native, you know, wildflowers and that. Yeah. Is that it? So if we're, you know, we started with some themes last time, if we're trying to slowly fine-tune, and we're still fine-tuning, but are these goals and strategies, do you feel like they're heading in the right direction, or have we steered off track?

I think they're heading in the right direction. They're still not at the 500-foot level. We're still maybe 5,000. Okay.

I think the fact that you've got us all talking about specific things is a pretty good indication of that. Yeah, that we're headed in the right direction. For me, it invokes certain ideas about certain things.

I think it gets closer to what we had talked about last, or the issue that we were having with the lack of tea. So it's like now, like Will said, we see the direction. the year 19 as we're starting to pursue the next conflict.

We're going to talk about gateways here. So we talked about the six different gateways around the city here. We'll kind of take a walk through each of them, so starting with We'll just call it Gateway One. Doesn't indicate importance, our first one. Coming from South Delphi. Some of the trips are coming along here, but really most of them are coming off the interstate, coming into town or leaving town. Obviously, when you come through of the interstate here, You're coming into town with a small little sign of a welcome to Waynesboro sign right here. But for the most part, four lanes, median, going back to what you're saying, if one of those goals is really to position yourself more as an outdoors community, But as we're coming through, we start to get into some residential uses. And then, of course, the industrial over here on this side. If we turn up this way, we're going into some neighborhoods right before this. But we're heading towards downtown. You can kind of see the general streetscape here. And then we get really more into the residential uses before we get downtown. But as we can see, general characteristics, Four Lane Road, generally a median on this. Otherwise, not a whole lot of other features here. When you all think about coming into town from this gateway, what are some of the thoughts you have when you come in here? What are some things that you might like about this gateway coming into town? What are some of the things you might not like so much?

I'll start with the positive. I really love that when you're making that turn coming down the mountain, you really get to see Waynesboro progressively, like as you kind of feel like you're getting closer. Coming through that corridor, I think you kind of mentioned it. exciting that says, ooh, this might be a small town. I think if I was the first person entering through that corridor, I'm like, did we take the right exit?

And plus you've got a lot of industrialization on the left after you get past that first, after you get past Windsor, everything on the left is industrial pretty much all the way to Main Street.

Which is fine. I think that just then highlights the even greater importance of having a welcoming entrance .

I've always thought it's curious, given the amount of industrial on that side of town, that there's no commercial over there. I don't know, is that highway business? Is it zoned highway business through there? Or is it all industrial? I mean, I know that's not the desirable turnoff for track trailers and stuff because of the grade on that ramp, right? But I've always thought, I mean, you look at the way we're on the Rosser exit, like everything has kind of grown out now with the gas stations and car washes and everything. That's always struck me as curious. There's just nothing over there. considering presumably with the industrial there, there's a lot of jobs and there's certainly some residential and that kind of stuff over there.

In terms of

entering town, the old, just for the sake of evoking discussion here, the old way of when you knew you were coming into Waynesboro was a pretty dramatic structure with the columns and sign here.

It probably could be more prominent, the signage that's there. I mean, the road is probably too wide for anything resembling what may have been there at one point in time. But... Yeah, I think that's a perfect picture going back to one of the points of infilling the sidewalks, making things more walkable, and what is the word I'm looking for?

not welcoming inviting i get for lack of a better term i can't think of what yeah to me and in some ways too when you hit that exit like you know it's from the top of the mountain all the way down it's mature trees you know it feels a little bit like almost you're still at the edge of the not at the edge of the park obviously but you know you're still kind of getting that because of the slope of the ramp and that kind of stuff, you still feel like you're on the mountain a little bit too, even though you're not really by that point. But the mature trees and all that kind of stuff really kind of give you more of that feel than some of the other entry corridors.

And I don't think either that an entry corridor has to be this elaborate parade. No. I think honestly just

I think that'd be the perfect entrance for your wildfires. From there all the way to Main Street.

Will, do you know, and maybe this is not totally noble, but is there a way that we could learn... Um, if this is the, you know, most utilized, second most utilized in terms of, I just think about, I mean, I go through there every day to go to Stanton to pick my kids up from daycare because it's the quickest way to get from downtown out to the interstate. And I'm sure, and you know, when I go to Charlottesville, that's the way I go out even though I live over near Rosser. So I would guess it's a pretty prominent, for residents like me that live on this side of town, it's a pretty prominent ingress, egress. And so I think of it, that whole area is kind of pseudo-industrial, but I use it all the time. Yeah.

I don't know. You probably come through Windsor, right?

Yeah. I mean, from downtown, I come out, cut through to Windsor, and come out that way to go.

If I had to bet, I would probably say that the number one most used entrance into Waynesboro is the 250 entrance coming off of Mountain because you're coming down like... like you said you got those big massive trees you feel like you're in the mountain it's it's a tr except for the big curve that you got to go around uh they it's tranquil it's inviting and right there in that curve years and years ago i don't know if anybody remembers it but there used to be picnic tables there and you could pull off have a little picnic Why they went away, I don't know.

This is the exit to me where the Jones Hollow one is the one where we're missing an opportunity to tie the park and all of that into Wayneboro.

That's where you need the big arch.

I'm not sure where that arch was.

I think so.

I saw a picture, and if you count, it's an old picture, but I think the arch was more down towards where the kombucha place is now. It wasn't at the city line.

I mean, I was thinking this exit, getting here today, and certainly thinking that as you come off, this is a very attractive, kind of natural...

entrance into the city.

And I think Waynesboro, on the Virginia side, is the only city, might be one other, the only city that is right up against the National Park. So it's a unique thing, right off the National Park. But I think of another gateway as getting that connection off of the trail down into the city, which I know This is, in many ways, this is a winter photo here. As you're making your way down, you do get a couple of these billboards coming in. When we're thinking about the natural entrance into town coming up in the park, thinking about what are some things we can do to make it the best darn natural entrance you can make it. And those aren't big dramatic changes, they're tweaks.

version of what it is um you know certainly the billboards are are there yeah um and they're non-conforming they're non-conforming yeah yeah i think like um once you get past or once you're at woodward yeah i think that's where something should go because like in the fall when i would come home from uh school I mean, seeing the tree canopy with the leaves changing. I mean, it was magical.

Well, and that's the way I would imagine. I mean, you know, when you have the people that come in for fall foliage and stuff. That's the way they come in. They're going to go up and down. Yeah.

So it's just like, and that would be a place for, like, maybe the old sun. Like, each entrance corridor kind of has its own unique personality. And you really have to, like... Sit in it to really see what would look good here.

You know what I would like to see, Will, is, and I don't know if it's ready yet, is the rendering for the new streetscape coming down into Waynesboro on that side of town. I know originally it was, they were doing away with both bike lanes, putting in an eight-foot asphalt road

walkway bike path on the left-hand side coming into town so that'll that won't start until blue ridge kombucha i guess across the street and then carry into where I guess right at Basic City, that would be kind of that alignment. But yeah, we don't have any 3D renderings of that right now, but it's in the design phases, engineering phases. We were short on funding, applied for revenue sharing, which is a 50% local match and 50% grant. Didn't get all of it, but got a significant amount. So that project continues to be designed.

Yeah, because that's going to change the interpretation of this entry corridor. Yes. Totally.

Yes, it will.

And it may change how you design it as well.

And that project, I can't remember if there are some billboards farther down that the hope was to remove with that project. I mean, all that was maybe conceptual in the application. What actually comes to fruition, we'll see.

Yeah, because there is a billboard right there before you get to – bonobos it's on the left right there bonobos I always mispronounce it I

And one infrastructure related is the water pressure issues. So existing buildings, there's a little bit of wiggle room there, but anybody who has an interest in building a new building, there's really not the ability to do it unless they make some kind of major water infrastructure upgrade so i would say that that inhibits kind of the creep of development if that's something that's wanted along that corridor is the water pressure why is the water pressure so low well i think certain number of that area was like annexed as part of the county and so just where our last fire hydrant stops and then how it goes kind of uphill there and there's just never been small pipes older so if a developer comes and wants to do something with their building they have to make those upgrades and so it's it stopped a lot of you know interests along the way So that's just an infrastructure constraint that also affects how your corridor develops, unless some large public investment's made or private.

So, Will, when you ask about the outfitter, are you talking about having something that draws people, that leans into that outdoor thing that draws people down? Yeah. I still see lots of hikers in town. Yeah. We've seen a lot of them here lately. But I've got to think that not having somebody, a place where you can come buy a new canister for your camp stove has got to hurt us. Wow.

Well, my wife and I host AT hikers for Warrior Expedition. These are all veterans that are hiking the trail the whole length due to PTSD or whatever. So we're dealing with that a lot when they come to town as far as resupplying. And one place they can get limited stuff is the fly fishing store downtown. They have fuel, meals, and that kind of thing. And other than that, where it was not available at Walmart, you know, there was an outfitter in Stanton, and then you got Harrisonburg, and then you got Charlottesville. So it really has hurt not having access to those particular supplies.

It feels like a big gap here of not having

Yeah, because I'm not sure exactly what's in that outfitter place now. Is it a restaurant?

No, not the kombucha one. They've ended up doing, like, they own a flower shop that they do for weddings and things, but then they also have kind of a mix of, like, mocktail-type business selling. They sell, like, some different cans and things. Faded Poppy, and I can't remember the other name, Matriarchus or something like that.

language or encourage as part of your goals and incentivize on the eastern side of town, outdoor recreational type of businesses? Because if somebody's got to come in and put the bill on a building on the water, it's not realistic. So you'd have to look at existing buildings now.

Well, and even with some of the existing, depending on, you know, if they're just using it for, like, if it's permitted as, like, a single-family home, that's one thing. But if they're trying to even put any use in, I mean, the water upgrades are necessary all throughout that area.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This one's a little bit more residential on certain segments. We do still have two lane here, but these are some pretty wide lanes. it goes to four of them four lanes here um again we do have traffic counts on everything we've done a traffic analysis one thing there are there are some roads where your volume to capacity ratio is low enough where you could think about trading a travel lane for some

But it is the one people coming down from Elkton and up north would use to come into town.

Stay off of 81.

Yeah, to stay off of 81. Right. Does the city still own the old dump site? Right there on the left before the billboard.

This, to me, when I come in this way, it's like, am I there yet? I'm there yet. I know there's more trees. Am I there? My brain is fine. Ill, maybe like not well-defined. Yeah.

Okay.

Like, am I in Dooms? Am I in Waynesboro? Am I in Waynesboro? Am I in Basics? Like, it's because of the way it's kind of chopped up. Yeah. And you've got, you know, the concrete plant, and you've got the barbecue place, and you've got residential, and it's just like, do-do-do-do, as you come through there.

And to me, the city line is in a little bit of a weird place. What's that? No, it's back down towards where...

It's back... No, it's not that far.

Bradley's... And the VFW Hall. Yeah. Well, it ain't the VFW Hall anymore. I don't know what it is now. But to me, it's always been in a weird location, but I mean.

It sounds like it's not entirely clear when you're in town.

Yeah. I'm like, well, you know, there's no clear definition between Dooms and Waynesboro.

Maybe there could be a use, and I just thought about this, like a use for signage that indicates, because you have two parks in that same entrance corridor. I don't recall seeing anything about Sunset Park until you're at Sunset Park. So I don't know if a sign that points to, because that would be a quick route to Rosewall. north part yep a quick route to basic part yep basic part so okay so you have three parts in that area i forgot about basic part all within that same entrance corridor. It's just depending on which turn you take, how early you take it. So you can have a series of signs that kind of look unique and nature-esque that indicate and highlight the park.

But I mean, Waynesboro and Beth

the other direction kind of similar, but this one feels a little more wide open.

At the moment, until they build the townhouses.

Well, it is until you get right before Anna Marie Estates and then the townhouses and everything else begin to overtake you.

I think when you come in that way, because of the agriculture that you come through coming into town, that area feels very rural. Yeah, much more rural than the other. And because there's no industrial, it's mostly residential out there, it feels more rural than the others.

I kind of like that. I feel like each corridor has its own unique style.

Yeah. And Hermitage is a lovely area, although it's outside of Waynesboro, I mean, it's a lovely area to travel through.

Yeah.

national park natural versus like agricultural rural because as you're going through there's just kind of like farmhouses or houses on large lots until then you get to like subdivision entrances with the city is there a way to like almost

similar to what you have on top of the mountain. I know that was somewhat to kind of break up the subdivision surprise once you hit that.

I think it's also hard to define this to your point, Nigel. It's a little undefined because of the growth out there right now. Like when the developments get done.

The Cannas Ridge to your, like as you're coming in, that one, it's like 109 lot subdivision that kind of started and then since stalled, but that'll be there On the left before you get to Annamarie.

Yeah, I mean so to me it like it's just I mean It's construction construction is what as somebody who started coming. That's the way I came into town when I came to work here in 2016 And so to me, it's like, oh my gosh, every time I drive by, something has changed a little bit. So it's kind of undefined in that way. But I think you're right, Nigel. There's an opportunity to be deliberate about, maybe be a little more purposeful about how that Because, like, about how we define that gateway more naturally, particularly since I have to imagine that, you know, some of those people that picked, like, Hannah Ridge or Anna Marie or Hopeman, the stuff on Hopeman, picked it because they're going to Stanton or they're going to Harrisonburg for work, right? So they're taking that corridor over to 81 on a pretty regular basis.

Yeah. But you gotta have it right away if you want to put like the natural canopy.

Well, yeah, I wonder more about like, I mean, the, you know, just with what we do with signs and things and trees as opposed to like one big.

Yeah, because the only designation that you're coming into Waynesboro is the VDOT sign says entering Waynesboro City Limits, the green and white sign.

Isn't there a sign over there? On the right side. On the right-hand side?

I must have never paid any attention to it.

It's somewhere near Anna Marie.

It's right before you hit the back of Anna Marie.

Okay. Okay.

It's not super prominent. It's kind of off in the back.

No wonder I missed it. Yeah. Yeah.

.

With this corridor right here, I don't know about anybody else, but I really don't feel like I'm in Waynesboro until I actually get to Holtman Parkway. Then I feel like I'm in the city of Waynesboro.

I don't disagree with that because it's so residential.

Yeah.

And that could be because it hasn't been defined.

Yeah.

But there is no welding.

No, you're right.

Until you feel like, okay, this is the actual city. You see the school. You see the church.

And you see the ball field and all that. And apartments. Yep, and apartments and stuff like that.

So, Will, when you're talking about, like, being deliberate, are you talking about potentially, like, entry corridor designations with special zoning requirements that require screens and stuff like that? So the reason I ask is, like, I mean, to some extent, I feel like the horse is a little bit out of the barn with some of these in terms of, I'm really beating that metaphor to death, aren't I? Beating a dead horse, the metaphor's coming full circle. So like, I mean, how do we, from a comprehensive plan, right, like presuming that there are, you know, maybe not even in the life cycle of this comprehensive plan, things are gonna get redeveloped in that area in a way, that allow for that, how do we set the condition? Like if we were to say, hey, we wanna identify on all of our entry corridors now at the edge of your commercial residential lot, whatever, you have to put a class, whatever the screen is, class C, class B, registered a buffer screen, right? I mean, to what extent is that like, I don't know how to, like how effective is that gonna be if we decide this is what we're gonna do now Does that question make sense? How do we create the implementation tool for city council or the next planning commission to use in these situations where there's already some pretty well-defined uses?

but it could be a regulation, a program, an initiative, or an investment. And we're kind of working on those four categories and tactics. One, it could do with zoning. It could be some road overlay that includes landscaping. And you mentioned the horses out of the barn on several of these. That's something we can calculate of how much road on it is already off the table for that But then you can check down to things like programs, and that's where there are communities that have programs for tree planting and landscaping, retroactive after it's been put in, but the resources are available to help to retrofit on that. There's investments, like capital investments, where there is possible right-of-way. with overlays and then at the same time there are others that are probably just off the table because it's already done the property owner is not going to be interested and for those i would say one kind of hidden strategy might just be if you get some segments of roadway that have really nice like So if your neighbor renovates your house and this neighbor renovates your house, then your house could need some more pressure to renovate your house.

Because now you've got the worst thing in the house on the street. And so there is kind of that non-regulatory, non-governmental action.

We're just kind of human nature in the market.

And maybe like an incentive could be like, you know, CFP may do, where you can give out small funds, like $250 for planting flowers or something like that.

Commercialized.

Commercialized. You know, four lanes with a suicide lane in the middle. Now I only know the slang language. I forgot the technical term. So we've got, you know, this turn lane in the middle, dual tooling, dual turn lane. You know, very different than the other gateways we talked about. Happenstance. Yeah.

Yeah, because you're commercial down to the landscape thing, and then all of a sudden you're back into residential, and then once you get up there at McDonald's, you're back into commercial again.

And this area has a funded median project and pedestrian infrastructure upgrades.

Is there any discussion about continuing the two lanes each direction past the garden center? No. Or is that just going to be too difficult to even do that? I don't even think the road's wide enough.

Yeah, I think the project improvements stop right before the garden center. I thought they stopped at the debt. No, they stop at Hopeman Parkway, right at the intersection. So there's really nothing else proposed beyond that.

Yes.

I can't remember if that will be a landscaped median. I think there was some back and forth with, you know, those that want the aesthetic benefits and then the maintenance issues and those that don't, you know, want to have to maintain them and then VDOT's requirements of what can be there. So I can't remember how that has finally gotten settled. There was some talk about, you know, the type of grasses that you plant so that there isn't as much mowing. And I know there was some discussion on tree heights, but I'm not sure the final on all of that.

I honestly just, I don't know how you would beautify this area because there's so much asphalt. and there's not a lot of greenery greenery yet on the side at all so i guess this is where i think and actually

and this corridor is part of our current entrance corridor overlay and so like if you think of the CVS that's relatively new that the parking there is a limit to how much parking can be right up against the roadway and there are some landscaping standards that's very different than like the Kmart or the Big Lots I mean so just this there are some things in place as the corridor redevelops that would help eliminate some of that asphalt.

Yeah, I was going to say, this is the place where we're waiting for redevelopment to catch up with.

We certainly got right off the interstate, which we all know is a big box commercial. But there could be some retrofits in that area. If you have that in this area, you're coming in four lane on this.

That's right there at Martin's when it changes over to residential.

Yeah. And then it starts to narrow up here as you get closer to town and the two-lane road.

A lot of the green stuff in that top right picture is gone. On the left where they're putting the townhouse. I mean, that used to be lots of... Yeah, townhouse development there. Now it's a big... Dirt pile. Dirt pile. Gravel pit. Gravel pit. Gravel pit. So that part of it's changing significantly too already. As somebody who uses this, this is probably my second most used entry. This is where I'm sort of excited that the infrastructure is starting to catch up, particularly there's a pretty, in my view, pretty acute need for pedestrian infrastructure that's finally starting to be met by redevelopment in that area. It's where... All of the, most of our grocery stores and stuff are, most of our fast casual dining is. So it's a heavily used corridor, and I think that's reflected a lot in the way that it's changing.

And we do plan to put in three smart scale applications specifically for this corridor for pedestrian infrastructure. And then also intersection improvement, access management upgrades at Windy Grove and Rosser, mainly from a safety perspective.

And what's interesting to me about that entrance is you have like, Just for context, you have the stuff that was there when I came to town in 2016, and then it's behind that first layer, so the hotel and the Cracker Barrel and the stuff that was up there, and then the Days Inn and the Wendy's and that Exxon, and then everything behind that has changed. Right, so there was kind of nothing out there because the land school was there. That's gone now and it's the sheets and everything. The one thing has become the car wash, whatever that was Ruby Tuesdays or whatever. So it's like slowly, but like that, the newer, nicer stuff that kind of meets those new infrastructure and like beautification requirements is like you have to get through some of this older, more dated looking stuff to kind of get that.

I've always felt like that first commercial stuff there as you come into town is kind of a missed opportunity for beautification. Between the

Days Inn and the Wendy's on the road there and then on the other side as well. It's just all guardrail and old fence and stuff.

And a couple of dead trees.

And people asking for money.

It's good, but remember the activity two that we had, we asked where should commercial go, and no one put a single commercial dot in this area. It was interesting. They put all their dots in downtown. So we have a few things here, so if there are some, We had one that was more of an urban corridor, so that might be Gateway 5 and 6, looking at right-sizing the road or median. You can look at possibilities of curb extensions or curb improvements, hopefully, to find the edge of the roadway there. screening could also be especially in some areas where we have industrial as in this first one is there a possibility of some screening options we could be pulling here to hit on on way finding we're talking over here as you're coming in and having some branded We could explore lane reductions, general ideas. Are any of these you feel like are off the table? Any of these really show up as something you really like and you want to see more information on those? There are others that are kind of, yeah.

I think it depends on where you are. Like downtown I would love to see two. Okay. Yeah. As you're coming into town from, like, Eastside, I wouldn't mind seeing three, especially coming off the mountain, because, I mean, hikers could also use that and benefit from that. And then, like I said, on Delphi, five and six would probably work great. And then, like, Rosser, one and five could work. and then even throwing in four up there on that end of town too, what you have in most of your really dense development. Some of those side, like maybe, I feel like little bit might be a little hard to incorporate three, which is where four can make up for. So yeah.

I don't see demand for street parking. necessarily in any of these gateway corridors, nor do I think the infrastructure really supports street park, like when I say infrastructure, like lack of sidewalk, like how do you close the lane to create, so that would be my only observation is this, the potentially like street parking. I just don't see the demand for it.

Well, the only place that you really have the demand is Jones Holloway coming in there are only one house on the right side, two houses. have a driveway that you could actually pull off a 250 and park. Everybody else has got to park on the road.

I hadn't thought about that, but there's some residential in that gateway corridor that would probably use some additional parking. And potentially, as the Basic City building, Basic City Brewery, Happen Coffee, that...

Metal crafters.

Metal crafters, thank you. I could see the potential for street parking there, too.

And the streetscape project might include a little in front of there. I can't remember if that got nixed with the budget, but it was something that was envisioned at one time as in front of basic with the streetscaping East Main project.

Yeah, because those houses right there beside Basic City, they're right on the road. I mean, you can't do anything with them.

I agree with Nigel, though, that the wayfinding, that's not something I thought about before. But you hit the city, and here are the little parks that you're close to. I think that leans into the tie us to nature. Sorry, I'm not being super articulate. No.

because using the Wayfinder has taken you through different neighborhoods that you probably wouldn't have explored. If you come on Broad Street, right, and you're at the registrar's office, like me, I always use Port Republic to go to Roosevelt. But if you're using the wayfinding, it makes you go through Florence. And then, which is weird because it has a Port Republic address, but that's what the wayfinding does is it forces you and pushes you through different things. And sometimes I'll see random ones throughout the family. I never considered taking that street to get there. But for someone that's not in the city, it could be a beneficial thing because they get to explore a different thing. And if you make it intentional, it can force you to hit the other wayfinding spot so you're checking stuff off as you're maneuvering.

Well, and as Waynesboro continues to brand itself and see which direction we want to go in, if outdoor recreation, I'm seeing a lot more street art. I mean, we went hog wild with street art this year with seven new murals, which is great. Tie in your wayfinding signage, you know, and then those intentional corridors where if you've got the parks there, you're tying in some park signage. If you've got the Jones Hollow, let's tie in some – let's get them on the South River. Yeah. And – whatever our branding seems to be tying that in. And I love, you know, I don't see enough. Thank you for coming signs instead of welcome to Waynesboro. Thanks for being here. Um, as well as like when I go into upstate New York, I love driving into these communities that are using their landscaping, uh, to make the landscape is actually the symbols of the heart in New York and the rings around it as you're entering in, you're like, all right, that's kind of cool. I just entered into New York from Vermont and boom. I mean, I think all of them can be, what I'm feeling or sensing is intentionality and being a little bit more intentional in our corridors and where those corridors are and utilize them as also as we continue to brand ourself as a community

Well, I think to that point, even what Stanton does with the City of Trees, and they have those little areas that are obviously landscaped, and it's like, thank you to whoever for landscaping. That's a way maybe to use some of the... create some incentives to do some things like that through unusual means, to do some of the screening and that kind of stuff for you. But with kind of a clearly defined, more natural feeling like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't feel produced, I guess.

Another thing I wanted to bring up, too, because I know Wayne's most big on nature. But I feel like because we're going to, I don't know if it would be the best idea to make that our sole brand. I just don't want the brand to just handcuff us and to just want to be like, oh, this is always what's good for coming for is fishing in the river. Because we do have a lot to offer. The connection to what you want with the wineries. all the other fun stuff that there is to do here. I think Williamsburg has a unique opportunity to be multifaceted, especially with some of the big industry we have coming in, our uniqueness to preserving natural resources, our proximity to other big cities.

What are we now? Where good nature comes naturally?

Where good nature comes naturally.

And that branding, we were hospitality in the valley before? Yes. And then our next branding strike is going to be in another 10, 15 years. I mean, I don't even know how often we sort of rebrand the city.

But even with both of those, it's been very small-town cozy. And we can keep that, but also making it flexible. I don't know.

Well, it's a relevant point with corridors, too. We're just going to try to put forward. Especially with your entrance corridors, that through land use and that details matter. Because you all have a lot more visitors per capita coming in to town than a lot of towns do. And so if someone's coming in for the first time, what are they seeing? The other thing we heard through the public engagement, the stakeholder meetings, the economic development folks, they were saying that Waynesboro hasn't really come a long way in the past 10, 15 years. But a lot of folks who went downtown 20 years ago

Yeah, because they came downtown to Leggett's and A&N and the other department stores. How have other small towns throughout Virginia taking advantage of the history of their areas. I know it's a touchy subject sometimes, but Shenandoah Valley, you've got the Civil War trail all up and down the valley from Winchester all the way down to Lynchburg, and you cross over. And I know that's real prominent in some places the further up the valley you go.

I mean, I think there's some challenges there here in recent years. History tourism has kind of been dropping off a little bit more. Battlefield tourism, just off the numbers, hasn't been on the rise in that way. That's one reason why... Even Colonial Williamsburg had a series of problems in terms of tourism when they put all their eggs in that.

However, I would say... Well, Colonial Williamsburg is a reproduction. It's not... The only thing authentic is the governor's mansion down there. Now it's historic because it was... Built way back in the 50s. Right.

So it's historic for different reasons now. Yeah. But, yeah, I do think where history... Well, it might not be the sole reason to bring it to us.

It's an ancillary benefit to being there.

That's where, you know, if someone is coming into town because they want to go fly fishing, or they're coming into town for some reason, then having that there can be something to add to that. Yeah. And that's trying to reuse those and put unique uses in there that draw people in. And they enjoy the building and being in that space.

I know Charlottesville does that with the downtown mall. I mean, you got the Nook Restaurant. That's one of them that pops to my mind. They've been there for 50 years. And then you got the hardware store down there. I've never remembered it as a hardware store, but at one time it was an actual hardware store.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, because Stanton's got Woodrow Wilson's birthplace. I mean, as far as I know, no president ever was born here. Yeah, well, Custer did.

One thing that springs to mind looking at the... this slide and right-size signs and lighting. I mean, I know we've gone back and forth on sign ordinances over the years, and one thing that has occurred to me is, is there a, should we have a different, do we have different sign ordinances in highway corridors than we do in other parts of the city, or do we have a one-size-fits-all sign ordinance?

Yeah, I don't think we are so specific with our entrance corridors that we further restrict signage in them, but that is definitely something that entrance corridors can do and do in other areas.

I mean, I can just, so the, you know, I think it's like the the big sheets sign in front of the new sheets is perfectly appropriate for there, maybe, maybe not, but is not perfectly appropriate for somewhere else in the city, right? And so that's something that, just looking at this slide, I'm thinking about as you come in on that corridor that's shown in the biggest picture, right, there's like a pretty significant difference in the signage between all of those parcels as you come through there. and the scale of the buildings and what's built close and what's built far back and like so as parts of that feel like where the harbor freight and the dollar general that like feels kind of like a remote place because it's that there's so much concrete in front of it and whereas you know that exxon feels like it's kind of crowded up against the I don't know, how do we make, in these entry corridors, how do we create some uniformity between those parcels so that it looks a little more cohesive?

Well, for one thing, the Big Lots and Harbor Freight, that's where the original Kmart was, and I've been here long enough to remember when that was a two-lane road. And all the way out to Fishersville. And they widened it for whatever reason. I don't know, but that's the reason you have such a wide expanse of asphalt there now.

Yeah, I just wonder if there's not a way to... Mm-hmm. streamline it, and maybe by creating some more uniformity and maybe some exceptions or some sort of different parts of a sign ordinance. And think about scale and scope.

Well, yeah, I mean, talking about an entrance port or a gateway, I mean, signage is such a big factor.

Right.

I mean, there's also, on this one, a for conflict points, which tends to be more after accidents. That's one thing. Whereas if you... I'm not picking on it.

The Exxon would benefit from an access road it comes but from in from behind sharp shopper and if you were to close the multiple entrances to the Exxon and then take them out to the light through the Kmart, well, the Amazon parking lot now, I mean, you would probably cut down on a lot of the traffic, a lot of the congestion and conflict points. That gravel to the left, that's where the old peck sheep barbecue used to sit. They never infilled it. The next entrance isn't used. There's a chain across it. And you don't really need this second entrance into the old Kmart anymore. You can always go in at the light. So there's three conflict points. that I don't know if a new streetscape plan addresses them or not, closes them off, and then you create a more easily traversed entry and exit corridor.

Those are important things to note. I would say also, back to landscaping, for corridors that seem to feel a little choppy, It's this, then it's that, then it's this again. Having consistent landscaping. I go back to Jameson County. Consistent lighting. Everyone who has their own lights here, if you had some standards or something, consistent along the road. That can make it feel a little bit more cohesive. So this is more of our suburban... I wouldn't necessarily recommend a bike lane on this section, but something where there's still an option for bike ped. It might not be right on the road. It could be set back. There are ways to retrofit like that. Any projects might be addressing that. But signage, lighting, landscaping, and then when we're looking at access management, those are a few things that kind of came to mind.

I like 2 and 3. And like I said, I think it depends. If it's like 4 or 2.50, like right here, it would make sense. And then it could be helped by 2.

But the median can get rid of some of the left turns. Yeah, right. Because you have a bear.

Well, as much as it annoys me to drive in circles around Lucy Lane to get to the places that I want to go around there now because they've put that solid median in, the odds of rear-ending somebody through there have been reduced significantly. I think four is potentially a good solution to some of these conflict points. You've got to be big enough to keep somebody from trying to go diagonally around them and, you know.

If we have more of our rural that we talked about earlier, other screening here so that if there's development, you've got to maintain some of that cool feel, if that's something you feel is important along those four orders. When we talk about shared entrances, rather than having driveway, driveway, driveway, driveway, you kind of have some shared interest egress to help minimize the entrances coming on the road. You could have lighting, although, segments like that, less so, but making a note for all areas of dark sky lighting is not a topic that's really come up per se in public engagement, but I feel like maybe it hasn't come up just because we haven't asked about it, given the whole outdoor theme. And then, you know, with

the only thing I would say is the shared entrances you know who maintains them the city the county VDOT because you're talking about basically putting in an access road alongside the main road to get to everybody's house

Like some localities, we don't have an ordinance that specifies this, but if there was kind of a large lot that was putting a residential right off the roadway, that their driveway, there couldn't be then another house right beside it that had a driveway and another one. So it's just kind of a private drive, but then easements that everyone has to use. So you essentially tell every landowner, not everyone gets a driveway off this road. the majority of our subdivisions are occurring on an internal subdivision street. So, but you could have an instance like this. I don't think we require it.

One thing that I have noticed about this gateway in particular, and I don't know if it was delivered or not, but know like when anna marie was developed for example and i think i've got this right but correct if i'm wrong but you know so if anna marie was constructed today would they be required to build a sidewalk along ivy there they would have to have a sidewalk along their frontage yeah so maybe our one of the things that we need to think about is whether that's something in a relatively rural area like this where we want to keep that nice sort of green existing, is that something that we would really want a new developer when they came in to have to do, is install, create what will now be little sections, tiny pieces of... I know I'm usually the one pounding the table about building new sidewalks, but in an area like this, the question that occurs to me is, is that appropriate?

Yeah, because once you hit the city line, the county is never going to put a sidewalk in further.

What are you connecting it to?

Yeah, what are you connecting it to?

But I think at some point it needs to happen so that those people can filter by pedestrian access into the city. But does it change the character of this? In a way, like, for example, I noticed the other day there's a sign and there's dirt being moved for a church out there that they're building that's in the city. Are they going to have to build sidewalk all along Ivy there when they finish that site work?

So they would have to. We might have the ability to waive that. I mean, I know we do in the subdivision ordinance.

But how far are they going?

We haven't seen those things. hannah's bridge they show a sidewalk yeah and they've got sidewalk actually i'm not sure hannah's ridge because so staff was interpreting the sidewalk part of the ordinance differently than we do now and i do believe that hannah's ridge may have been approved when we were interpreting it the other way that it was only sidewalks on their internal streets and not on their public road frontage um But yeah, I mean the points well taken that there might be the ability within our ordinance to have some waivers and within the subdivision ordinance, council can waive it. If it's a site plan, I do think we have a little bit of flexibility with our site review team to look at it and determine whether or not we think sidewalk makes sense. I think our zoning administrator and our review team have some flexibility there, but yes, just by the letter of the ordinance, the church, we haven't received any plans for there to be.

Right, I'm just using that as an example.

Yes, they would be required to put sidewalks.

And so I think that raises, to me at least, that raises a question of what is, you know, is that really the look that we want for this particular corridor? Anyway, it's just a thought.

A little late here, but I will just point out of this corridor, once you get in and we're We've got good feedback in our discussion. But I did wanna, before we get too late, we did look at the property there of kind of the buildability side analysis that we talked about earlier. We looked at slope, we looked at road access, water sewer access, we looked at soil, the types of soils are in place. Well, it's not really much of an issue there, but conservation priority, data sources, including soil on there. So, first observation, we've got 250 coming in here, and we have that other entrance corridor coming up north. That's coming that way, 64 coming here. The first main observation is there's a lot of very steep slopes. Where it's a little bit more buildable is right along this path. I can do my weatherman impression. The problem is this is a reservoir. That's the dam. That is off limits. It's a little bit flatter over here. It's a little bit more buildable. um so we're talking a lot of difficulty in terms of is this or is that oriented okay never mind you answer my question so um certainly obviously looking at road access this area which is a little more buildable does have road access on this end and water and sewer coming off the 250 over here which we were just talking about From the data we have, not a lot. Looking at the soil, looking at what is more ideal construction soil versus not. This again is the reservoir. Obviously water, it's a little hard to build on that. We have a dam there, which This is a little bit flatter in some of these areas, and also the soil is a little bit better. Over here, the soil is a little bit better for construction than possible. I mean, plantland's not so much of an issue as much as just kind of streams that lead into the reservoir. So we did look at that. On this one, I'm just kind of what types of development might fit on the soil or on the site conditions. with larger flat areas that could be more conducive to a larger footprint. The problem is it's not really contiguous. So it's just by itself that there's not really, the slopes and soils don't make it easy to get to it.

The connectivity is not there.

Doesn't really help too much. But we'll go back down to this end of a little bit more We did look at different types of land uses and what types of slope and what types of land features might be more conducive. So we looked at each one of those land uses. There's some standard analysis you can take, some textbook things you can do. Again, looking at conservation. So this is the plan we took from 1996.

Yeah.

Sounds about right. The Pearl Jam era plan. And so we've got this plan here, and it has the golf course. And you can see where certain areas with the higher slopes, they stayed away from in the plan. That makes sense. They did their own analysis. So they had, you notice, more buildings on this end. We're looking at the slopes and the soils. That was the end that was a little bit more some development here. But again, that was a flatter area and the soil was a little more conducive. So it's interesting how when we're looking at the land data, it seemed to line up kind of the logic of how they laid this out. Of course, a lot of green space. In this one, there's waterways. That was part of that, just what they were looking at at the time. And you could look at some other options if you were looking at a park. This is just kind of a sketch of what a park could look like in terms of trails along the site. Again, kind of similar spots because that's, again, where the developmental parts are on the site. If you had like cabins, there's no research on this, just purely a rendering just to give something to respond to, not a proposal. But if you had like a welcome center here, this is a spot that's between two regions. This is the entrance point into the Shenandoah Valley for miles in both directions. So you had some sort of park, center here as part of this. You could have cabins and lodges, so different uses on there. If you're looking at some sort of park use, that could be something. We're not proposing this, but I'm going to show you next so it's clear. It's meant to show something. We're not proposing that. But if you wanted to max out the site, Show the limitations of the site. You would have to just, you're going like heavy industry. A couple people in the public comment forum said we should do something like this. You would have to just completely level parts of the site, flatten it out enough. And then if you were trying to do something up on this end, you'd basically have to just create. With everything, you have to build huge bridges over areas.

A lot of capital improvement on this plan. Yeah.

So just a minute to show enough, you know, you saw some comments. There were some earlier plans that really built this out.

Like a whitewater rafting park.

If you follow those plans, you know, there's some of the challenges, you know, that we're not proposing this. It's just something to look at. So we did look at, just in terms of site, You know, we're gonna do some numbers on housing. If you look at Zillow home value index in Waynesboro going from 2010 up to today, obviously some pretty substantial increases here as we look at this and looking at the rent index that's heading in a very clear direction from 2024 to 2020. There's certainly pressure, opportunity for more residential development. I think you all are seeing that.

Tyler mentioned last time, you've already surpassed the Weldon Cooper estimates for .30.

And last I checked, it's not .30 yet. So you did look at some of that market data. We'll say you did also do the transportation analysis and walkability, which we're not gonna get into that tonight.

You talked about wanting a plan. This is certainly not a plan that I just showed you, but this is at least some of the data that would go into developing a vision for this area.

I wanted to give you just a quick overview to see what your initial reaction was.

Well, I'm all for the golf course, but the big question is, What does a man that owned that place want to do with it? I mean, if I'm him and I'm sitting there and I got 850 acres and I'm, now I realize this plan was years and years ago, I'm thinking, what is somebody trying to push me towards?

What was it? Go ahead.

I'm going to refer to our resident real estate person down there.

That guy was a naval Greek, naval yard magnate who I think lost his... I mean, I talked to Skyler about him back in the day because I was curious. I was wondering, well, if I could get my hands on the land... With some of Dwayne Jones's goals of some additional outdoor recreation and tying in Sunset Park to some areas, and with the limited development opportunities. I love your scales on the cliff of the manufacturer. It just brought me great joy. You know, will you encourage Bruce to donate to the city like Shirley Smith did with her land, but this time keep it as a park, you know, and do something?

Yeah, because right now it's a hunt club, I think.

To me, the question, Will, is how do we set the conditions in the comprehensive plan for to create an incentive for that person, for the owner, to do something with it that conforms with the recreational use idea and some, I think there has to be some kind of development on it. So how do we set those conditions in the comprehensive plan in a way that dovetails with all of these goals? Because unless somebody comes along with lot of 50 80 to 100 million dollars that they want to take a chance on this you know i don't i don't see this but so how do we what what are the tools that we need and can we get as granular as specifying with this parcel hey we'll give you the incentive to put whatever five, $10 million for the houses and the bottom third of it, if you create an opportunity for, and I'm not saying this for specificity, I'm just trying to, you know, how do we set those conditions so that you can use the potential, the stuff that's easy to develop to create incentive to take the stuff that's not as easy to develop and make it, whatever we decide as a city we want it to be, whether that's a park or a state park or a local park or a, you know, I don't even know, mountain biking, whatever, whatever, something that dovetails with sunset, and then how do we create all those connections? Because that's, I mean, you're not going to get it for nothing.

Right.

And we can't just say, Well, I don't think we can just say we're going to take it. And I don't think we can just say and make it a park, right? So there's got to be some trade-off here. But how do we set the conditions so we're not in the place that we all were with the Smith Farm thing? having to swallow something that we would all prefer that we not have to swallow as against what it could have been with all due respect to Smith Farm and what it is. That's the real question for me for this property is how do we keep ourselves out of that situation where we've got a planning commission 10 years down the road, 15 years down the road saying, Well, they could put 900 houses, but they're only putting 600, and they're giving a five-acre park when I think everybody agrees it's the best. Let's say, hypothetically, everybody agrees that the best use is a 50-acre park.

I mean, you can have a steep slope ordinance. We don't have one, but you can have, like I think Albemarle County says you can't develop on anything over 25%, and that's just their ordinance. That's the way it is. That would take care of it.

I mean, and the other thing is, like, how do we do this to this piece of property? How do we set the conditions that create a success, create success for this piece of property without just spot zoning it to make it what we want?

Yeah. Well, it's against the comp plan.

Right, and I guess that's why I'm trying to frame the question.

Yeah, the levers you can pull, unless you just hit on a major one, is regulations. So you could then change the zoning on this to something that wouldn't allow for development or for much development. There's zoning changes like steep slopes would be a big one here, which makes this site very difficult to develop. So there are regulations that we agree to pull. There's initiatives.

Bless you.

Development of an area, and then there's investments. That's where you make direct capital investment of purchasing the property. I'm not recommending you do that. I'm saying that something is an option. It could be a direct investment in infrastructure.

If you want some areas developed, providing infrastructure could certainly do that. So you have the regulatory leader, the initiative, the program.

Yeah, and I guess maybe it's just my, you know, experience of what kind of some of the stuff that we've been through, but I feel some obligation to like take some affirmative steps. as a planning commission to try to set this up for success.

Success, of course, meaning... Can we create a committee, commission, to review potential uses and make recommendations Does it have to fall within the comprehensive plan? I mean, I'm seeing you ready to make some regulations right in the next week.

Maybe what the comp plan says is there needs to be a commission or a committee or a subcommittee or a whatever work group to come up with a mission for this. Maybe that's too specific. You know, because I don't think that we, it's really within our mandate as a planning commission to contact the owner of this property, right? That's something that's more on the city side. But I think you're right, Jeff, like there's got to be a... I think just dropping a regulation on it would be short-sighted without some engagement from the person who owns the place about what they see happening.

Well, let me ask this, Leslie and Allison. What is that zoned right now, agriculture or what?

Or it's PUD. It's a planned unit development. So back in 96 when they got this approved, it's a category we have where they kind of create their own zoning, so to speak, and they lay out the property and they say exactly what it's going to look like. And so they did that, and that's that map right there.

Yeah, that was a golf course because I remember the model sitting over in the gorge.

yeah so the only way they could develop it today is if they kind of followed to the letter of that ordinance that they put forth and just to be honest I don't think anyone could today with the economics do it so anything that goes there would have to come back to the city what I don't what I wouldn't like to happen is that what one of our neighboring localities did they went in

The land had been in the family for over 150 years. The family is never ever gonna sell it, it's never ever gonna be developed, but the locality went in and rezoned the property to be developed against the family's wishes, the community's wishes, and everybody else. I don't want to see us go down that same path.

Well, but part of our, yes, I hear what you're saying. Yeah.

Because personally, I'd like... Leave it the way it is. If a man wants to build him a house, he's got 800 acres of grass he gotta mow.

But I think the idea behind, I hear what you're saying, but I think the idea here would be to create a use that serves more citizens than the current use serves.

Yes.

Right, which I think the current use serves whatever.

But I don't think we'd be doing a due diligence if in those discussions we did not involve the owner or his family.

Well, and just to be clear, I mean, the city has, like... talked with the property owner in the recent, I guess, two or three years, I would say, with some of these plans and ideas. So yes, of course, I don't think it would have any political will from our city council to kind of move forth without having that discussion. So yes, the city has been in contact with the property owner about some potential ideas, park and otherwise, and those would continue.

Because hasn't he already donated a right-of-way from the trailhead up on the mountain down to Waynesboro for the greenway to connect through?

That's not my understanding, no. Okay.

Heavy public comments.

And it's the largest undeveloped piece of land that the city has left.

And it's right on the gate.

Sure.

But, yeah, like you're saying, I would recommend, I think we've all agreed on this, that the property owner being a partner.

Of course.

And when you're talking about what are some levers you can pull, talking in general,

Yeah, because at some point or another, and I'll defer to Jeff's expertise down at the end of the table, at some point, the developmental opportunity of this property does not justify the cost of it. Because of the shape of the property, where it's at, the railroad that cuts through there that you've got to deal with, you know, is the quote-unquote $50 million investment worth it?

It's whatever their business plan.

Yeah. Be curious to, well, I guess I would be cautious to put too much speculation into something that we don't even have ownership over.

Yeah.

Because personally, if it was my property, I wouldn't do anything with it. It would stay like it is for perpetuity.

Put it in an easement, conservation easement.

And let it go.

Right, but the idea, again, I think the idea here is... Is to hit off a potential future. Right, that's what I see as our obligation here with this property. That's the only thing. Is to protect it against... Uses that we're gonna regret that some other Planning Commission in 20 years from now may come to regret in the same way Well, and so speaking to like the steep slope ordinance that I

is common in some localities because of the desire to keep the natural landscape and to so there's greater public benefit there so that wouldn't be in any way to you know hamstring this property it would just be you know across the board in the city we're going to say slopes over 25 percent aren't going to be leveled for development and that's something that happens in a lot of localities so that you can keep your natural landscape and the environmental benefits and otherwise.

So leaving aside the financial component of it, if I had a lot that was like this and I wanted to build a wall, as long as I could engineer it, I could build it under our current... Yeah, we have no steep slope restrictions.

Yes.

So I think... I agree with Will. I think what we as a city have to do, too, is make sure we put on the balance between government overreach and what's... So it's not seeming like we're targeting, like we're preying on a specific property, and then it's like, okay, we're just hoping we can put enough restrictions on it in this particular area in hopes that if something does work in our favor, then we're already set. I think good planning is always the intent. but making it to where it's not targeted.

and then having the comp plan identified generally what the city would like then when that development application comes in you're able to say it fits or doesn't fit right the plan that we have put but but here's my my concern about that is if you know you look at

Hoatman Parkway, for example, and the densities along Hoatman Parkway that I think, some of which I think don't conform with some of the other large lot residential that's over there in some ways, right? Like the stuff right along the road. And so if we don't, my concern with, not to say that you're suggesting we do nothing, but my concern with relying on the PUD regime for them to have to come back is that there's something we can't foresee about them. this or some change in the zoning laws or some change in the future that we're going to have that some you know down the road you there's some buy right something that could happen here that's the unforeseeable that scares me i guess is what i'm saying because what i don't want what i feel some obligation to do again is to prevent a future planning commission from having to pick from two bad choices because they're constrained by the PUD.

The lesser of two evils.

So the PUD that exists today, I don't think anybody developed to it. So any new rezoning application you whatever we envision and the community envisions in a broad brush way so if it's a mix like will mentioned like hey we foresee some low density residential in this area we foresee mostly this area being conserved based on various environmental and or other factors then when anybody comes in with any kind of application to do some type of development then the Planning Commission does have the direction that you're hoping for to say that does not match at all what we had envisioned for this property.

So you would say that the PUD would give the city the most discretion or the widest, I'm struggling for the right words, but like the widest, the most potential oversight because... this is as restrictive as it could possibly be.

The way it is now, and then if they wanted to move forward with another PUD, it gives you the most upfront, this is the number of units, this is the preserved area, this is what it all looks like. Yes, you have, if they just said we wanna rezone it to RS-12, which is our large lot, we wouldn't have really any control over where the development happened and where the conservation areas occurred. It would just be kind of based on the market and site development, which obviously they would be restricted based on slopes and other things. But yes, a PUD, the way our ordinance is currently written, gives the city the most control over the layout. and then them being tied to that layout rather than just coming in with a new preliminary plat or a final plat right and amending boundaries under their existing zoning the pud is most restrictive how well how um legally ironclad or pud when they when they become totally unattainable right there's some monetary contribution to There's also a large monetary contribution that was factored into the PUD.

Because I can imagine, right, as a, yeah, I mean, I can just imagine as a lawyer trying to be creative saying, well, what you've done functionally is you've zoned this in a way that we can never do anything with it, and that's not fair, and it's a taking, and I bet I can find 12 people that agree with me on a jury. You know, I mean, that's where my brain immediately goes. So... These are the hypotheticals that I'm worried about. Maybe they're so remote that I shouldn't worry about them.

It also goes back to Nigel's point. You don't want anything to feel targeted because this is the last large undeveloped lot within the city limits.

So what I'm hearing from you and staff is that the immediate action would be that overlay ordinance.

Yeah, so just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that, you know, that's an appropriate... Do I hear a motion? I'm saying that that is a possibility, and it has other... I mean, it's not... It has benefits aesthetically. It has environmental benefits. It has a range of benefits, and that's why it's done... in localities all over the place that they decide to do that. I was mentioning it to say, you know, we don't have that anywhere else and likely there's environment or economic constraints that are gonna keep them from developing on those slopes anyway, but that is something that can be put in place. You know, Elmeral County has it. I don't know if they have a waiver process or if people just recognize, okay, I can't develop on these slopes. But there's larger benefits, aesthetic and environmental, that come along with that.

Yeah. If this is the only property that has these steep slopes, I kind of feel like it would be kind of hard to say this is not targeting when there's not other property in the city that has as steep a slope.

I would say we have other properties that have. I mean, I would have to do a topographic analysis, but I'm sure there are other places within the city that hit that 25%.

I just hesitate to, I guess I hesitate to rely on the economics. Having, and I'm drawing, I'm trying to put my finger on it, the economics of the PUD and those sorts of things, because where I grew up outside of Northern Virginia and Culver County, things got developed that nobody ever thought were going to get developed. and things that nobody could have foreseen, I think, that everybody could agree were not ideal wound up happening. And I'm not saying, you know, we just can't forecast those things, and so that's why I'm skeptical about potentially relying on the economics of it to get something done. And that's where I think maybe, to your point, Will, we have to figure out, I think we have to figure out which of these levers need to be pulled And the question, again, in my mind is how do we identify those, how do we use a comprehensive plan to make sure we identify those before something, before the conditions change and while we can make an informed decision with the best information we have.

It's like, it's time.

It's time, dude.

sure and there are others that we that we have on a list that you know we want to bring up this is just kind of one that is the largest

with other properties that have not developed yet, or already have an approved plan in place, that's come up, what are some levers there? I would say, for this specific site, I think the main lever right now is that relationship with the property owners working together. That's probably where to spend time on this. Looking at this, I see where you're coming from. I don't really have concerns about If they wanted to do something else, they would have to come to you for a reason because you hold the power as a city on those decisions. I showed some data to show why this plan looks the way it does because there's a lot of site realities here. You just can't build on some of this. There's a reason why that is there and that is there and that is there. That's kind of just the realities of it. It would be, I think, having those discussions with the property owner, I think, talking in loose terms of just a vision or just some ideas for this part of the city. That, you know, that property owner, if that's something that inspires them, that might be something. Having a vision, a general vision for this area, and we've already talked about that a bit, on this corridor, some of the things that we talked about,

What I'd be curious, because I'm going to go back to a point Jeff made in our last work session, the top of the mountain. Once that's developed, I can see it spilling over and across 64 and encompassing this property. I'd be curious to know what restrictions the county has on the two adjacent properties that they own. as far as zoning and what they're requiring and all that. Because once the top of the mountain is developed, it's just a domino effect right down into Waynesboro. May not be in my lifetime, but...

Yeah, I don't disagree that this may need to be a part of a larger competition.

Yes, I mean, you've got a large, large track of undeveloped property between the top of the mountain and the city.

Well, and to your point, if they're going to build a visitor's center up there... We shouldn't be planning for a visitor center down here. Right, or vice versa. So I think even with some of the more realistic uses than the PUD, there needs to be some cohesion between plans.

Yeah, you don't want duplicity. That's a good point. Is there a way to find out, Leslie, what the county has... put on those two parcels? What zoning requirements within the county those two properties fall under?

I don't know for sure. I could certainly look it up. My guess is that there's zone general agriculture. Okay. And they just have never developed for the same slope issues. If there's zone general agriculture, you can only divide one lot a year. It has to be on a public road. So it kind of keeps them from subdividing or developing in any way.

Because you know what, like I said, once the top of the mountain develops, you got spillage probably over into Chinquapin, down the mountain, and everywhere.

Keep using the word slope. It might have a use for that space. Let's put some skis.

water park slides high angle coming down we've like blasted through our sort of unwritten two-hour rule here yeah but this this is a very fascinating discussion I can sit here and talk about it far longer than anybody wants to listen to me yeah I'm sure

But I think we're headed in the right directions. I think you're overarching six points. We're asking a lot of questions. We're having a lot of discussions. So we're beginning to hone down in on it.

the property owner here that might not always be the case with those properties. So we talked about a lot of different ideas in terms of tools, landscaping, the slopes, things we can consider in terms of...

Can I get a motion?

Wait, we still have three items on the agenda.

I don't have anything currently. We'll be setting up another meeting with Will in the future and get with you all on that.

Please send the trout thing to everybody.

Or send it to Leslie so she can send it out to us, the slide.

But, yeah, so July 7th is the planned next land use board session. Okay.

All right. Commissioners, correspondents, certification. Motion. I'll move that we adjourn.

I'll second.

All in favor say aye.

Aye. The motion carries.