Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. Everybody seeing the agenda this evening? Yes. Have a motion to adopt it. I move that we adopt the agenda. Second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Hearing none. Motion carries. Has everyone had an opportunity to review the minutes from February 17th? Yes. Do we have a motion to approve that? I move that we approve the February 17th meetings as presented.

Second.

All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Hearing none. The motion carries. Thank you very much. Next on the agenda, we have the public hearing for a zoning map amendment request by Wellsland Development LLC to amend the profers for tax maps. Tax map numbers 31-1-18, 31-1-108B, and 32-2-1B located at Zero Forest Drive in 0 Bookerdale Drive, Wesboro, Virginia, also known as the Silver Creek subdivision. With that, I'm going to turn it over to staff. Thank you. Um, so staff has been uh in communication with the applicant since um the last February meeting and the applicant did submit a revised profer letter dated March 13, 2026. On that profer letter that he submitted, the profers one and and three um are unchanged with profer one being that the subdivision would be developed in general conformance with the preliminary plat. And then proper three was that the rightway easements to would be dedicated for ludit roster connector road and then that also the greenway trail. Profer two is the one that has been revised and it now includes a phasing plan for the Bookerdale road connection. So the proposed profer 2 states that ever the Everett Street Road connection to Brookdale Road shall be phased during the buildout of the proposed subdivision prior to the prior to the final platting of lot 119. A fire apparatus rated all weather gravel road will be created to coincide with the final locations of Everett Street and Hawk Street. The road will be used solely for the construction emergency services traffic and will not be open to the public. Along with the construction of section four, Everett Street with this connection to Bookerdale Road shall be constructed to city street standards may have made available to general traffic.

So this slide will sort of show how that could work. Uh this is a look at the layout of the subdivision u from the plinary plat that the applicant has submitted. So section one is over on the right side of the screen and it would contain 25 lots. Then section two which follows that Silver Creek Drive down would have about 24 lots. Section three which is that connection up to Forest Drive and down to Silver Creek Drive would have about 31 lots. And then the final section section four would have 20 lots for 100 lots total in the subdivision. So as far as the phasing of the Bookerdale Road connection goes, if the applicant starts with section one, as is assumed, uh the portion of that portion going connecting from Belfier Road down to the end of phase one would be built with section one. And then the remainder would be built prior to the final platting of lot 119, which is in the middle of section two. And it would be used at that point for emergency access and construction traffic until that final section uh was was final platted and built out. Lot 119, the pointer is not working. So lot 119 is sort of where that Lord Bryant Drive comes down to the Silver Creek Drive is the general location of lot 119. I will note uh sections tend to be final platted in one go rather than by lot. Um, and so it is staff assumes that by specifying lot 119 that

uh unless the applicant is choosing to switch up his phasing, then the emergency access and construction traffic would that road would be built prior to the final platting of section two. Uh, but the applicant is here tonight and can uh help clarify that. That is all and happy to answer any questions you might have. Do you have any questions for staff?

All right. With that, um, we need to open the public hearing before we hear from the I would go ahead. All right. I'm with that, I'm going to open the public hearing for zoning map amendment request by Wells Land Development LLC as set forth in the agenda. And I do think we'd like to hear if the applicant is here. I'm sure he if he'd like to be heard, we'd love to hear from him.

Good evening. My name is Bill Moore with Westwood Professional Services. We're uh Land Development Consultants representing the applicant who was also here with me tonight. Um if you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer them. to hit a few highlights about some of the zoning and phasing. Uh, you know, we're just a zoning phase here. We're not in construction document, you know, creation. So, the reason for building the sections as are shown is you get the maximum amount of lots on the road frontage without building a lot of infrastructure. They don't have any road frontage. I know there's been talk about can we come in from the back. On this example right here, you can see clearly that the entire lower portion of road has no lots available for it. Um so that's a large infrastructure cost that you'd have to absorb before you could take down even a single lot. So it there is some uh you know logistics about the sewer does all drain down to that to that lower portion section four where there's an existing pump station. That's so you're going to end up building a spine of sewer and and probably water to even serve the first section. Um so it just you know it just makes sense now at this level from a zoning perspective to kind of honor what was originally planned in the uh you know the current preliminary plat which is from 2006. Um, I think there's still a good opportunity to bring, you know, a lot of the construction traffic even before we create that road in a fashion that can support emergency vehicles. There's already road built, a gravel road built from Bookerdale to the pump station that is available for access. Um, it would be very simple to create a construction entrance beyond that and even serve a large portion of mass grading and utilities for section one. So really what I'm getting at is and and a lot of our materials are going to be coming from that direction in the city. We're not, you know, we're not going to order materials that either come from interstate or even 250 and have them

navigate all the way through just to get, you know, through the section one portion. So it's still going to make a lot of sense to bring a large majority of all of our construction traffic right off of Buckerdale where there's where there is an existing uh access. Any other questions or clarifications I can offer? Could could you clarify the the access road in relation to the phasing of the final platting of lot 19 just how that theoretically would work?

Sure. Yeah. Um 119 I think it's right as Alisan was pointing out right where the word section is uh left of number two which is at an intersection. So from there, once we get as we're coming around section two, we'd be able to build a portion of that road um until we final platt it. I believe that's the wording that's used.

So we could have a good half of section two infrastructure in place, utilities in place, and ready to start platting so we can sell lots before we can plat that final one and slash sell it. We would need to come in and upgrade. you know, we're going to have that access drive through there because that's where our water and sewer uh utilities will be rough graded. So, we're going to go in mass grade most of section one, two, and even a bit of four. And so, the sewer spine will be in there because the sewer has to feed through there from day one. Even the first lot, it's sewer goes all the way down to the pump station. So, we're going to have to mass grade and rough grade to subgrade the road and that whole access down at least to the pump station. And then there's a manhole there that we're that we're connecting to. And again, beyond the pump station, there's a road there now that you can use today. So, um once that uh plat is ready for 119, that remaining rough grade, let's just say it's in dirt, you know, when we're using it, we got to upgrade it, get it pretty pretty much on grade, put the gravel down, and allow it for emergency access.

And and how long do you see before 119 is final? Uh, I couldn't speak specifically to the schedule. Um, you know, Mr. Wells could, but I suspect yours. Okay. Yeah. And so it sounds like from what um Mr. Moore is describing is that in section two there might be a 2A that gets final platted and a and a 2B potentially that at the 119 is where that that would happen. So that kind of clarifies the concern or assumptions we were making of, you know, is there subfasing within and it sounds like that's what you're describing. That's right. 20 lots is a lot to take down in one plat because if you don't have all the infrastructure done, you have to bond it.

So yeah, 10 is kind of 10 to 12 is a more uh appropriate number to plat at one time so that you're ready to sell that bunch and start moving on to the next bunch. Because you'd have a lot of infrastructure cost in 24 units before you could even sell one. You can't sell one until they're all. So typically even even some of the bigger builders that come in, you know, 10 is probably about it that you're going to apply at one time and then you might roll right into the next one with infrastructure, you know, a few months later. Okay.

Where is your sewer connection for phase phase one? Phase one will be served entirely down that bold yellow line in the street

down the dash line to the pump station that's right there at the bottom of section four. So let me make sure I'm understanding. I know know you want to the gravel roads be for construction. So are you starting at the pump house and working back up? So that you aren't bringing equipment off of Belleview in there to do all that grading and lot clearing and all that. That would be more Yes. I mean, we don't want to bring a whole bunch of construction traffic through a circuitous route in the neighborhood when Okay. everybody's going to be coming from this side of town and we have a we have an access drive there now.

Okay. Now, you know, whenever they bring a a paver, he's not going to be able to navigate a PA through a gravel road. We don't have to bring the paver in, bring him off the pavement. Yeah. You know, because you you know with those kind of those pieces of equipment aren't off-road. No, they aren't. But I mean, your your Volvo trucks, your dozers and all that. Yeah. We're going to unload them down here on this gravel road where it doesn't bother anybody. So, all the lot debris and the dirt and all will be going out Bookerdale, not Belleview. Right. Oh, there. Yeah. All that all that drains down the page. Nothing drains that direction at all.

Yeah. Storm water, erosion control wise, everything. And I mean that's why they did the first the way they did it. I mean it was there's kind of a dividing line there and then it all drains down to the right in the number one in the corner. That's our primary first pond we'd put in which is kind of a nice night what which makes for a a neat and tidy section one except for the sewer. I mean we evaluated does it make sense to put all that sewer in versus starting in section four. Mhm. Well, because of the cost of that that whole bottom that whole level portion of section 4 with no lots, it does. I mean, that's $1,200 a foot to build that road before you can plat it because you can't plat it until it's basically approved.

Now, the utilities buried under the road, the power, the sewer, and all that. Uh, in the city, the water sewer is in the in the in the roadway. Okay.

U storm, you know, right on the edge. Power is usually just off the rightway. So, the ideal phasing is you're going to start the road construction up from Bookerdale, go up to I can't read that lot number up there on one, but right behind the house at Belleview, run all your utilities up, then branch off to the different lots before you break through the barrier and connect to Belle Belleview. Correct. the vast majority of it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, again, there's no reason whatsoever to bring heavy equipment when we can just unload it down here on our own property. And again, the bulk of the earth work is going to be in section one is putting in that pond. That's where everything drains through for erosion control.

Yeah. And then we got to come back here and rough grade our road in because I mean, for sewer, you have a lot more a lot more uh flexibility because you just have to make sure your manhole is the right height. Yeah. And it doesn't matter if they're in the hole or sticking up temporarily. Yeah. Until you mass grade the road. So, uh, your your heavy equipment will be coming in off of Bookerdale. That is definitely the intent. The intent. Yeah. We have a there's a gravel road that serves that um pump station today. Right.

In my mind, you come in there and all this can be worked out in the construction plans. You can come right off the end of that with a construction entrance, you know, like that heavy gravel where you can get your tires cleaned up and everything and then go into the property because we've got to do a lot of moving of dirt just to get section one started. I understand. So, uh, as far as section one though, once they start building homes or once you start building homes, there's going to be a lot of construction going on there, you know, materials. Yeah. I mean, once the once the home whatnot, will that all be coming in off of Belleview? I I No. I mean, your builders that are coming on pick up trucks to do drywall, they're probably not going to

route through there. I mean, by the time we get to section two, probably they'll see the gravel road and come in. But the vast majority of section one when the home building starts, I think it's safe to say those guys are coming in their pickup trucks right down the pave road because what we'll do is we'll have the subbase asphalt laid really before we start building the homes. Mhm. So, we'll always do we always do um it's kind of new to Wesberry, but we've always recently started doing a base mix and then leave it down two inches to do the top mix after everything is built because what happens is those builders just tear that stuff up

and then we have to go out and mill it. And that's super expensive. It's better just to go in there curb gutter and put it on a base asphalt. It's kind of it's called a a base mix asphalt and then leave that surface mix off until basically everything but the landscape is done. You know, you're ready to almost sell that lot ready to, you know, turn turn the keys over. Uh and then come in and pave it just as you start selling units because that way you got a nice clean subdivision. Everybody's got a nice brand new pave road. The curbon gutters all been cleaned up or whatever. I mean, sometimes it has to be replaced or chipped or whatever. And it's always good to have that clean last asphalt layer immediately once the house is ready to be sold.

How many houses do you anticipate building in section one before you actually make a connection to Belleview up there? Well, that connection will be before one house gets sold. We can't have we can't You can't have it. You can't sell them if they're coming in off the gravel, but No. Uh, I mean, are you planning on building out all 20 of those lots and then breaking through Belleview to sell them at that point, or are you going to build two and then connect to Belleview? I would imagine there's it won't be 20. Yeah.

But there's some number and it's probably going to be more than two because at that point, you know, you got to keep things moving. Yeah. Um, I would guess somewhere in that six range would be about when we're ready to make that connection. You know, you got you get about 30 or three on each side of that first intersection. Uhhuh. And what you don't want to do is have a road built. Uh, fire and rescue doesn't want a piece of road that's only uh 200 feet long without a turnaround or an intersection. Yeah. Because they got a ladder because they have to be able to turn around, right? Not me in somebody's driveway. So, we'd basically be forced to put it to the first intersection. So they come down and tee off

so that fire and rescue could turn around on a actual paved road and then we would plate those lots around and sound there's probably six or eight right there. I just want to clarify one thing. Um for those of us who maybe like me can't see exactly where lot 119 is. I've got the the plat pulled up here. Um, the corner lot between Byron and Silver Creek with the letters S and E on it is lot 119. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's that corner lot right down. And since we didn't have the pointer working, I just want to say that for everybody who may not be able to see it. I can see it much better on the your gravel road that goes out to Booker Dam. Hang on, sir. We're gonna we're gonna have notice and comment. Okay. Okay.

And you'll have you'll have an opportunity to speak and if you want to ask some questions or talk separately, but we're going to give the applicant a chance to talk. Um, I want to make one additional I have one additional question uh for staff. Now, the we have no ability in the zoning ordinance to regulate where heavy construction equipment traffic comes in to this subdivision. Is that fair to say?

Yeah. There's nothing in our zoning ordinance. It is very typical during the construction drawings like when we're working on the public improvement plans that public works and community development will kind of identify areas. Um, so no, as far as zoning is concerned, there's nothing in our current ordinance that kind of determines where heavy construction traffic. You know, some roads in our ordinance, not our zoning ordinance, do have um truck restrictions on them, like tractor trailer truck restrictions. And I don't know, I'm not very clear on the language with that and if any of this would apply. Um, but no, typically from a zoning standpoint, you're not regulating that. Um, but we do look at it with the construction drawings and and try and and and um kind of mitigate some of those um concerns as we work through phasing.

Thank you.

Anything else I can offer? I'm happy to happy to do so. Um, just as a kind of a summary, you know, and by by and large, this is basically what's been in place since 2006. Um a lot of the profers just are time has erased them from needing to be done like the pump station lot and those those type of things. Um so you know we really uh have appreciated staff's help in navigating the process and um really hope that um that this that the planning commission can support moving forward with a recommendation to city council to build uh what's what's desperately needed is housing in this in this area. Now, is Lord Byron Drive, that T right there, going to be cut in as part of the road construction?

I'm not sure what you talking about. Lord Byron Drive where it comes off of Silver Creek Drive. Yeah. Is that going to be cut in over to phase three during phase one? It would be. Yeah, we would. Again, I'm gonna go back to that fire rescue. That's what I was thinking about. Could they use Lord Byron to turn around? That's exactly what I was alluding to earlier. Yes, sir. Um I probably didn't do a good job explaining that, but you can have a a stem that is less than 150 ft before it requires a turnaround for fire and rescue. And so we would put that in to allow for the turnaround of let's call it the first eight lots. Yep.

But we wouldn't be able to make that I'm assuming it's pretty close. We wouldn't be able to go beyond 150 ft into section three without having another turnaround created. So it would be probably about as far as you see maybe two lots in. Okay. So they wouldn't necessarily have to c they wouldn't necessarily have to come in from Belleview to serve those three or four houses that are built up there while you're building. They could come in off of Bookerdale, serve them, and then turn around and Lord Byron. That's right. Okay. That's right.

So, so how many houses are going to be in that phase one before you even get to phase two? Uh, you don't have to help me on the numbers. Is it 24? Yeah, there's 25 lots in section one and then 24 lots in section two. And I guess the 119 is somewhere in the middle or maybe So section one will be little less than the middle of section two. Four.

So So yeah, the way it's written, they would have 25 lots would could be final platted and and houses sold on before that gravel connection needs to be made. And then of the 24 in section two, a little less than half could be done before 119 is hit and that gravel road has to go through. So 25. Okay. So So the full for section emergency fire rescue has to go around. Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah. For all of section one in the bold yellow, those would temporarily have access off of Belleview for fire rescue until the um until the gravel roads put through. And the did the original proper affect that number? Yeah, the original profer said, correct me, I think it's at 65 lots. 61 lots. 61 lots. And so currently there are 30 or so

30 or so lots that are already done within the development. So if we were abiding by the original profers, there would only be, you know, 28 to 30 lot more lots that could be done before that road had to be completely done. not emergency access but just full connection is the way the current properties are written. Okay. So, so they'll have a lot more homes built without that vote being done if I'm understanding correctly

there. Yes. Per the original profers and and what is being proposed now, there are additional houses that will be served directly to Belleview rather than through the subdivision. I would say is a fair assessment. Yeah. So, so my calculations it was there 34 existing homes right now. Um and the total amount of lots by the time we would get down to lot 19 would be 46. So the 46 and the and the 34 um would put us right at 80. So we'd be pretty much 19 lots over the existing um for the first section of Silver Creek was. M

Mr. Wells, I know who you are and I will you. But for the b for the benefit of people who may be watching at home that didn't see the last one, will you just identify yourself for us? Yes. I'm Julian Wells. I am the owner of Wells Land Development here in Wayneboro. Thank you. Yes, you're welcome. Let me let me just clarify something. I I hate to keep going back to this, but you just said in answer to Kenny's question that emergency services would have temporary access off of Belleview before the gravel road was put in. But if you got to run your sewer line all the way from a pump pump station there all the way up, isn't that road already going to be there?

Only to the extent we can put in. So we may leave manhole tops down or up whatever but it's mostly

what's your timeline? Uh for which portion? Well to construct that road

uh you talking about for fire access or Okay. um pretty much what what he was saying just now, you know, we're looking at I mean I'm looking at at this point um for phase one to do 25 lots, you know, um it might be 10 or 15 lots a year, you know, so we might not get there for for a while um you know, with what we have right now. So, you know, if we do 15 and and we're at 40 45, it might take a couple of years or so to get there to that point, you know. Um but but straight out of the gate, you know, it it I I don't think or would be proposing at this time to be doing all 25. We looking at trying to, you know, get construction drawings and stuff done for those first 25 lots. But, you know, I I don't think it would be possible to try to do all 25 in in a year. So right now I don't have an exact timeline on exactly you.

No, I appreciate the ballpark. What was that? I appreciate your ballpark. Yes. Yes. No problem. You're welcome. But even though that the the gravel road is rough graded for the sewer and you still got man holes sticking up or however high you need them to meet final grade. You anticipate all construction activity, traffic to come in off of Bookerdale up to those lots before you open the access to Belleview. Correct.

So, I can actually answer that question for you. Even my company right now and my guys, we're actually using the Bookerdale access now, you know. So, when we're coming into the property, we're actually coming around that way. So, a lot of times when we're going in and we're building houses, we're trying not to create an issue uh with the residents or or provoke any problems, you know, with coming in on the other end, you know, I've built a lot through Wesboro, so on every single property we build on. Um I'm I'm always conscious, you know, on that fact. You know, I'll use we had a house over in Pelum, you know, and for example, all the houses are brick over there. I put a different kind of material on the side and I was waited till the last minute to sit there and do it because I didn't want, you know, it to uproar anybody. It turned out to be one of the the nicest, you know, a nice house over there. So again, we would be using that access coming in off of Bookerdale. Like I said, we're using an existing, you know, now, you know, we're coming in even on the back of the property. You know, um, we had to get some of the homeless people and stuff out of there. We had to put trespassing papers up. That's the access and the route that we use. So even when I'm going over there, my mind is always to go Bookerdale way and to come in on the back.

All right. Do we have other questions for Mr. Wells? All right. Thank you, Mr. All right. You're welcome. Thank you all, too. All right. Do we have folks that are signed up? I do have three that are signed up. Um the first that I have is Eric Trinovich at 10009 High Point Court. And we are folks uh we're going to use the light system here. So we're going to give you four minutes and I think the light will turn yellow when you get to 30 30 seconds left. So we just ask you keep your remarks under four minutes, please.

This won't be as long as the first one. Um so first of all, thank you because a lot of the things that the neighborhood had talked about were concerns at the last meeting. It sounds like he's willing to kind of concede and help us out with um the construction road I think for all of us was a really big deal. Um like someone had said all that, you know, big equipment, the Volvo trucks, the dump trucks, everything coming in out of the neighborhood, I don't think anyone really wanted. Um I had two questions that I think he can probably kind of respond at the end. Um, is all are all four phases going to be prepared at once? Um, the reason that we're asking that is he had said it's going to be several years. Um, and all of those houses along Belleview Avenue are going to have to deal with continual blasting, drilling, everything like that. So, if all the land is going to kind of be prepared at one time, I think that would be super beneficial for all those established homes. Um, we know that when Kiier Heights got put in, a lot of those older homes did receive foundation damage from the blasting that took place. Um, and we know that people have come out to inspect the properties along Belleview um, and take pictures of their current status in case something happens in the future. So, just kind of mitigating the amount of time it would take to prepare all four of those lots would probably mean a lot to the neighborhood. Um and then um again the none of us I don't think any of us under realize that we're going to stop this neighborhood from happening right all of us in phase one I think most of us have come to the conclusion that whether it's Mr. Wells or another company, the ball's too far gone at this point, right? We're rolling downhill at this point, but a couple of years to do this development seems kind of crazy, right? I mean, do any of you want to live in a

construction zone for three to five years and deal with that over and over again. I highly doubt any of you would really want that in your neighborhood. So really I think it would be more of how do we help make this a quicker process for everyone that's already has an established home in that neighborhood. Um so if there's any ideas that he can share around that I think it would be beneficial as well. Thank you sir. Um the next person we have signed up is Wayne Noly at 10008 High Point Court.

Thank you all for allowing me to speak. I was not able to come to the first meeting due to a dental surgery that day. So, I'll be brief. I've submitted written comments, which I assume you all already have. I'll just highlight a few things. I request that you table the vote on the proposed zoning map amendment. As a citizen of Wainesboro and a resident of Silver Creek subdivision phase one, my comments are not to be construed as the official response for Silver Creek HOA, but I have spoken with a good number of the property owners and we share the same basic concerns. It's in my opinion that additional work is needed by the developer before a reasonable set of profers acceptable to the land owners and the taxpayers who will have to foot the bill for any issues assoc associated with the construction of the connector road with the limits of within the limits of the subdivision in the future can be developed and I realize that may be a long time. I'm not challenging the engineering used in the design of the subdivision, but I think that the profers have been offered to date and certainly tonight what has been said does clarify things more than what was available to the public before tonight. Those profiters that were in writing before do not provide a clear picture of a prudent construction sequence and are thus somewhat deceiving. Now, what Mr. Morris said about constructing roughing in the roads so the water and sewer can go in. That's consistent with the way I looked at this. I think it's the details are in if you've got the road roughed in anyhow. Can you go ahead and use that for both construction access and also uh fire and rescue. So that's something I'd like to see in writing rather than just asurances. Yeah. The builder's traffic's not coming in off of Belleview. They're

building houses in section one right now. They're construction vehicles, not great big vehicles. It's pickups and vans and that type thing all over all the time. Be really nice if they came in off of Bookerdale. It also appears that the traffic analysis, while it probably conforms to all procedures and stuff for these things, I'm not a traffic engineer, but I'm familiar with them. I didn't really see where it addressed the cut through traffic that's going to come through in the future because it's going to be a lot easier to get out of anything west of Videt to come out Silver Creek Road than it is to go out Fireglow or something. So, do we need a turn lane down here on Everett Street? So, that and and my concern there is if you need a turn lane, is that going to be wider fill in the flood plane than people have thought about now and therefore going to have to make some adjustment? Something that hadn't been planned for. I realize that connection to Booker Day Road is not ideal, but if it's not good enough for construction traffic, it certainly isn't going to be good enough for the construction traffic and the residents that are going to be using this as this development is built out. So, at a minimum, I request that the subdivision be renamed to remove the association with Silver Creek Phase 1, which the staff has already commented on the fact that we kind of relied on the covenants that were in the HOA, and they're probably not going to be applied to the subdivision. We're not saying they've got to be. We understand the economics have changed and all that. The main thing is don't associate our phase with this phase. Call it Kira Heights phase 2. There are no heights in Kira Heights phase one. And we'd like written

asurances of these phasing things and that there will be a separate HOA. So we are no way responsible. Thank Thank you, sir. Um the last person I have signed up is Gary Hugan at 2516 Belleview Road. My questions are answered. Thank you. That's all that I have signed up.

I have a question. As the fire department, are they are they okay with the potential not being able to service those 40 maybe 50 homes directly off of book? Have they expressed any concern?

Um, so they did review the original reasonzoning and the profers. Um and we did talk to and and so if you'll remember the original profer didn't have a phasing. It was really just considered to be kind of fully punched through at the very end at phase 4. And so the concern from fire and rescue during that time was mainly that they were going to connect to Bookerdale because there was a very original iteration where there was no connection to Bookerdale. but staff, community development staff and fire and rescue felt like with the location of the brand new fire station, it would be important to have a connection to Bookerdale. So, that was definitely discussed with fire and rescue. And then as um since the last meeting, as we've talked about um the idea of a phasing and specifically fire and rescue having access earlier, um I don't know if fire and rescue has specifically weighed in on those changes. Um but essentially it's gotten you know better since the time they reviewed it and their main concern was just that there would be the full connection down to Bookerdale.

So just to follow up on that question I I I would ask then how many of those homes because from my understanding it just has to be available to be sold. So, not all of those lots would necessarily have homes on them or all of them necessarily wouldn't be occupied. Sure. Yeah. So, final platting allows the lot to be sold. Correct.

Um but and and Yes. So, there could be lots that are final platted that don't have a house on them that have houses on them, some that are occupied, some that, you know, they couldn't be occupied until it's final platted. So, it's kind of hard to tell exactly how many um other than kind of the general phasing that the developer has alluded to and that we see commonly in development now that you know most phases aren't that large and that they are potentially platting sub phases within those and that's relatively common with even the larger national builders. We're seeing And I got one followup to Kenny and Nigel's question. Has the fire department weighed in on Okay, let's step forward in time a little bit. You got four houses right there built at Belleview. You got your road in right there.

What are they considering access to those four houses? I can't specifically speak to the fire department and if there was some um I didn't know if they ever weighed in or not because it's the firehouse is literally right across the street from Booker Day.

Sure. So they they've definitely weighed in on the development. I guess I can't speak to if a certain emergency was occurring and if a fire truck could use a a graded kind of road in where sewer is, if that's what they would choose at the time. My understanding though is that the preferred access for fire and rescue, the fire rated, you know, robust access wouldn't be made until lot 119. Um, so they're going to make the decision, you know, that makes the most sense for them, whether that's through Belleview or otherwise to reach it. Their main concern when we reviewed this from the beginning was just that there would eventually be a connection to Bookerdale. And we discussed the difference between what was a seven

what could be around a seven minute response time if there was no connection to Bookerdale and then what could be reduced to a one to two minute one to two minute response time if there was access. So that's the level of detail we got with them. There wasn't kind of that level of detail of you know we would only want x number of houses before this came in. That wasn't something that they brought up. It's something that got brought up as part of the public hearing. It's something that we have kind of worked to establish and make sure that that connection would meet standards that are in um fire code. There is a standard for that emergency access road.

Make sure I have one clarify one thing because I'm confused now and I'm sure it's just because I don't fully understand things. Under the existing profers from 2006, the road the road connection to Bookerdale, that would be Bookerdale and Hawk would have to be constructed a before the 61st lot fully constructed. Before the 61st lot was platted under this proposed profer. After lot 119 is fully platted, they must make the dirt road connection. Well, yeah, I will clarify. It does say a connector road from Hawk Street West to Bookerdale Road must be constructed or bonded

prior to final plat approval for any lot beyond 61. So they they they it might not have to be constructed. If they bonded that connection, we could we would have to let them pass.

Here's my question. Would but simply couldn't they satisfy that by simply constructing Everett and Hawk and not connecting it to Silver Creek? Some part of it? Does that I'm wondering if that is the reason that that's different is because of maybe the layout was a teeny bit different at the time. A connector road. We're just looking back at the original layout to see if maybe that this whole thing was called street. So know this is kind of clunky, but so this is the original layout, which is different than that. And this whole loop here was called Hawk Street. So I'm guessing the assumption at the time was maybe starting here and then that would

Yeah.

But there w I mean there wasn't anything that clarified that phasing other than that profer. So this whole loop here was Hawk Street. So that profer was essentially saying that would need to be done prior to 61. So maybe they could have done some up here before having to have that full thing in. I I guess my question is under the existing profer could they build what's shown on this map as Everett and Hawk after the under the existing and not connect it to there's no there would be no legal requirement under the ordinance that would make them connect it to Silver Creek and Byron they could satisfy the existing profer not address this issue and not address the interconnection issue and satisfy what's currently on paper as a profer because the way it's the way at least that's the way I read that there's an argument to be made along those lines.

I mean, eventually it would all have to because they profered the preliminary plat, but as far as phasing's concerned and timing's concerned, I think I think you're right that my understanding for the reason for that profer was that at the time the traffic study was done, it was also kind of looking at how things would kind of separate and there was no light at right at Northgate. And so I think it was not it wasn't all about connectivity all the way through but more just distribution of of traffic.

And so bec Yeah. And so I think I mean that's what I'm getting at is because that wasn't because connectivity was not really the analysis that was being done the way that the existing profer is written says all says to satisfy that existing profer. So if we tell we say we're not going to recommend this we're not going to tell city council to do this. They could construct they could go forward on some of the existing profers at least and construct it and not address the connectivity issue that I think we're mostly focused on here this evening. I think there could be a case for that. Yes. All right.

I wonder if Mr. Wells, would you consider frontloading that access road as opposed to backloading it on your project to satisfy that concern? or at least remove that concern.

I would say one thing, right? And I don't know if the road study when it was done if it was done to actually say, "Hey, we're talking about one minute for the fire truck to get from the fire station, the new fire station to the entrance or all the way through Silver Creek." As y'all were sitting there talking, I was sitting there thinking about that because, you know, if you're cutting through and cutting up that road, that's actually additional time to get up through there. Just to the end. It was just to the end

and that that's what I thought, you know. So, there is actually I'm gonna walk over. I'm sorry. Right up here at Booker there, Bill. There's another road that cuts through that goes up and comes back around that could come back in right there on Bel. I just pulled it up on my phone as well. But but it cuts through which is pretty much about the same time if if I'm planning on building these 25 lots right here or the first 25. It would pretty much be about the same time to get up around there and through Silver Creek as it would be coming across here coming up uh and then trying to feed all the way up through this subdivision as well. you know, because I just looked at that just now and it it, you know, it would be pretty much about the about the same thing on, you know, for that first phase, you know, and as again, we're talking about getting through the first phase, building the rest of the remaining uh road at at lot 119, if that kind of makes sense. But I, like I said, I just had pulled it up. If you come up Bookerdale, there's a road that cuts through right there. They could easily use that road, come in, come back around. And and for me, it would it looks like it's about the same time as it would be to cut through to even get up to that lot 35 or 36 that we would build. You know, just say even the first five lots.

You're talking about fireglow avenue. I think that is correct. Yes. From that to Courtland Street to Cresa.

Yes. Yes, that is correct. And I think generally that's why fire and rescue wasn't particularly concerned about timing is because for them it's mainly just making sure there's not just one way in and out ever. And so I think that they felt like there were enough connections to the subdivision that gave them good coverage but at the end and ideally having that connection down to the new fire station was important as a as another way in and out of the community. And I guess you can tell me if I'm wrong, but from what I understood from what the fire department had said too, basically you had mentioned this a little bit too the second ago was basically they wanted the road to be done at some point. You know, there was no not really a point besides the profer being done or the profer being said uh uh uh implemented to say basically that that the fire department wanted it done at this lot, you know, or or a certain amount of lots in order for the road to, you know, for them to have access. They just wanted to to be done from what I read as well, you know, before the subdivision was actually completed at that point.

All right. Thank Thank you, Mr. Wells. Let me get us back here on track for Okay. Sorry. Thank you. Um, so, but I thank you, Mr. Wells, for addressing those questions, and I'm sure there will be more. Um, do we have I think if it's all right with everybody, I'm going to open it to folks who didn't sign up that would like to speak. Is there anybody who didn't sign up that would like to speak? And if so, if you'd come up, we're going to sub do the same four-minute timer. We're going to ask you to state your name and address, please. My name is Dan Toaft. I live at 251 Courtland Street. I'm just trying to understand the connector into Bookerdale. Is that road the gravel road that goes to the pump house down here?

So, it would connect as I understand that it would it would connect that's the existing gravel road that goes to the pump house would become Everett Street. And then and then what they're talking about is before they do the final plat on 119, they would construct an emergency access gravel road that would connect uh Silver Creek to Bookerdale, but it would be construction traffic and emergency access only. And then at final at section four being completely done once the very end of 100 lots it would be changed from emergency access only to a full public road

and to give us ever would become that first part of Everett would also have the rightway for the connect a connector road. The the other question I had was that they talked about con heavy construction equipment coming from Bookerdale. You realize that there's a onelane bridge on Bookerdale between Lou Dit is that I think we tal we did talk some about the onelane bridge last time, but I do I do think that's a good thing to point out that

my understanding is that at some point the intersection where the new fire department is, they're going to cut through there and come over to Bookerdale that way. So there is a a Ludowit Roser connector road that's planned and with this development the applicant has profered right ofway for a portion of that and so then the ultimate goal for the city is once that is completely connected Bookerdale would be a culde-sac there kind of eliminating the need for that single lane bridge. Yeah. And that's the long-term goal.

Okay. I just was concerned about heavy equipment trying to go over a onelane bridge. I didn't know whether it could do it or not. Thank you, sir. We have anybody else who hasn't signed up who would like to be heard.

Julie Danich, 2408 Belleview. I have questions about the traffic as well off of Belleview. So, I just want to ask on the I'm on that corner of or the end of the solid yellow. So, are you going to be placing concrete barriers at the end there at Belleview on Belleview and Silver Creek since you're saying that you're not going to allow traffic to come down that way?

So, my understanding may I'll answer this as best I can and then if Mr. Wells wants to come back up and answer it. My understanding, somebody correct me if they have a different understanding, is that they have implied that they would move bring most of their heavy equipment in off of Bookerdale, but once they construct that entrance and begin construction, they will bring some con some limited construction traffic down Belleview. I don't think there's any plans to block access. Well, and once the public road is actually created, there they could not block access. So once they once they build that road that that'll it'll be a public road and anybody can drive down it. So when is that public road going to be built? Would have to be fully constructed.

Well, it'll h as they you know you to final plat a lot. It has to have public road frontage and developed public road frontage. So, as he alluded to, if he did um from Belleview down to the intersection with Lord Byron, that's like six to eight lots that they would build that portion of the public road. And so then at that time, those six to eight lots would could obviously be using that public road to go through the subdivision. It would be more of a construction traffic management between our department and the developer. you know, if a neighbor called and said, you know, we're seeing huge, you know, dump trucks coming down Belleview, that we would call and communicate like, hey, you know, this and that's how we would handle that. But there wouldn't be the ability to create some kind of barrier to limit those individuals that then now live on that street from utilizing the public road system. So Leslie, when when using that example, we don't the city, we don't own that street yet,

right? And no, I mean, so it is not completely accepted by the city yet when it has just that base layer on it and we don't plow it or maintain it in any way. And it might be a good question for legal, but I think at that point at it's platted right away. When it's final platted, it's platted public right away. So, it is a public road. It's just not owned by the city at that point. So, it is kind of a gray area. But, I don't think we, you know, would have the ability or the desire to limit people that are buying houses on that public road. You know, they they have to get out that way because that's how the development is being proposed to be built.

Yeah. Uh mine is more what's the expectations? Yeah. Potential buyers when you're looking at the city. Yeah. And that and that is I mean that's common throughout that you know we usually have a sign that says you know end of state end of maintenance and then you know you know there's always that education and communication point of you know once it's final asphalted and the city goes out and does all their final inspections that then we take it into the system. That's when VOTE accepts it as road maintenance funding and that we begin to maintain.

So while they're building, I can expect traffic on that corner. I I think as they've communicated, they plan to limit it, but and if that was to be seen, it would be kind of a communication between us and them to clarify, but there would be no way to create a barrier there to limit PE people building houses in section one from driving on the public road system. And to to be clear, and maybe this will answer your question more directly, the pavement that exists there to the edge of their lot is public roadway to the edge of their lot, right? Mhm. And we have no the city authority to prohibit them from accessing their lot at that point. Right.

So we have no authority to tell them what they can and can't do where their lot anymore that we could tell you what to do at the end of your driveway. Well, my driveway comes off of Belleview. However, there is nothing on Silver Creek at this time. So that's why I was asking. Right. So, if Silver Creek isn't going to be completely developed out and you're looking at doing all the maintenance road off of Bookerdale, that's why I was wondering if there was going to be any concrete barrier if you're going to try to force onto Bookerdale first. Yes. So, I don't we don't have any we don't have any authority to force them to go off to come up. Yeah. We don't have any ability to do that under the zoning ordinance.

Okay. And I and I think to to be fair to the applicant, we we we couldn't stop them from unloading a bulldozer at that entrance if they wanted to do it from public roadway to their property. So I think what they're trying to do is address some of those concerns by making the representation that they intend to bring as much heavy equipment as they can Bookerdale. Yeah. Gotcha. We just don't have any ability to regulate that. Gotcha. Thanks. All right. Do we have anybody else who's signed up, who's not signed up, who would like to speak?

All right. Um, with that, I'm going to close the public hearing as previously set forth in the agenda. Do we have any further discussion?

Yeah, I just have a concern that I'm not I'm not satisfied that the fire department Also, I realize we can't stop traffic on a public public road and as the lots are developed to kind of address and quail some of the traffic issues that have been brought up tonight and previously. Have you given any thought to ha has you build out the first let's say eight lots down to Lord Byron for sake of discussion that at the end of the public access putting up jersey barriers to kind of deter the construction traffic from looping around through Belle View and onto the site. That way you only keep the residential traffic that is for the houses that you've sold on that

I I um I mean I'm just posing a question. I'm just trying to re Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I appreciate the question. Um but we've closed the public hearing. We've heard from the public. I know you want to get your question answered, but We got down this road at the last hearing on this issue and okay I think we've given everybody an opportunity to be heard. Um I mean I hate to do that to you, Mr. Gibson, but hope I think the I'm sure the applicant will consider your suggestion. I I just don't want to All right. open things back up and have a free-for-all. Okay. No, I don't either. I mean, just a question.

All right. Do we have any other any further discussion? Do we have a motion? I move that we approve the zoning map amendment request about Wells Land Development with the three profers as presented. Do we have a second? I'll second. All right. We're going to have a a uh roll call vote. Uh we're going to start with Miss Keller on the motion before on the motion as made by Miss Stewart. I I think he's asking how do you vote? I know.

Oh, okay. I think and I think what she's doing is she's mad at me because I started at that end. Yeah, I am actually. Um I am. Let me let me say that. Let me say start on this.

Let me let me say a couple things. You know, I appreciate all of the feedback that we've had. Let me if I may, I'd like to be heard on the motion. Um, I appreciate all the feedback that we've had on this and I appreciate particularly the concerns of the folks that live in that development. We cannot this is a because these are profers we cannot as the planning commission solicits particular profers. So no matter how much any one of us individually may feel that there's a specific condition that we'd like to see with respect to traffic or something like that, the applicant has to profer those things to us and we cannot solicit specific profers which means that the what the law requires is that we we consider what's before us based on the feedback that you have given us. And we are constrained by the ordinances particularly the zoning ordinance as to what we can and cannot consider and what we can and cannot regulate. I would I think what we have heard by way of community feedback is that if it was up to most of the community we would preclude traffic from entering that development on Belleview Road. We do not have the authority to make that requirement. the zoning text ordinance as I read it at least and maybe somebody else in with when this is before city council will offer a different opinion. I don't see that we have the ability to do that. Um we are often faced with challenging decisions as a planning commission where we look at what serves the community the best and um as between the choices we have. So we don't get to dictate to this applicant the requirements that we would like to see with specificity. That's that's just not how this works with a previous profer and now an amended profer. if we ha I think all of you particularly those of

you who have seen us up here doing this over the last period of time um I know for me personally when we went back to the going back to the Smith farm development we we find that paradigm challenging because we having seen many of these applications see things that we would like to see done better but we are constrained by the zoning ordinance from doing things as well as possible because this is the applicant's property and he's got a say in it too. Um, so with that, I think what we've seen, and I want to give the applicant some credit here, we've seen some consideration taken into, and I was I was really happy to see a civil discussion after the last time we had a public hearing on this where I saw Mr. Wells take into account the feedback of the people who live up there. Um, if I was king for a day, I might do something different, but I'm not. I'm the chair of the planning commission. So, uh, my vote on Mr. Nigel, Mr. Stewart's motion is going to be I. And with that, we'll call a roll call vote. And we'll start with Mr. Gibson since we started the other way the last time. I'm going to have to vote nay only because I share the same concerns that Kenny does about the fire department.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Klein. Can I elaborate a little? Absolutely. Okay. I took all the time I wanted to pontificate. Please help yourself. All right. As far as the fire department thing, I I don't have as much concern there because if Silver Creek did not exist, the fire department would still have to go all the way around anyway. You know what I'm saying? Okay.

So, I don't have as big concern there, but I just wish there was a way you could be you could make number four number one. But being a businessman, I understand the economies of scale. You've got a lot of we put in for just a few lots. I I get that and it's a shame. It really is. And and I feel for the people up on Forest Drive in Belleview, you know, the traffic coming in. I just uh Mr. Wells, you said you're going to do everything you can to to keep the majority of the traffic coming in off of Brookerdale, and I know the construction, the heavy equipment would be coming off of that. I just hope you keep your word on that and you know we don't get a lot of complaints as far as too much traffic coming in on on the upper end. But I don't have any choice. I mean you make a good argument there. I'm going to vote in favor. If if I was king for a day I'd be I'd say no. But what do we do?

And if I can pontificate.

Sure. Um, you know, we talk so much about affordable housing in this area and the more delays you put on developers costs money. The more bureaucratic delays, barriers, parameters cost developers money. That in turn, that money gets handed over to the homeowners. Um, and you know the the the worries about the fire department. We aren't the end all. This happens because we said yes. This going to city council because we can say yes. And then you can have the conversation between now and the council meeting with the fire department on how they view it. But I'm not in support of delaying any further. Um, and so I vote yay. Mr.

Stewart. Yay. M. Lee. No. No. All right, the eyes have it by one. Thank you very much everyone. And so as Mr. Fe pointed out, this is not the end of this discussion. This matter now goes to city council. With that, we have our next item on the agenda is public comment period for items not on the agenda. Do we have anyone here who's would like to be heard on an item that is not on tonight's agenda? All right, hearing none. Next, we have matters from staff. I do not have anything. All right. Next, we have commissioners correspondence and communication. I have none. I don't have anything.

All right. Having none, do we have a motion to adjurnn? I move that we adjourn. Second. All in favor say I. I. Motion carries. We are adjourned. Thank you.