Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

So is this I try to go whenever I can Yep

to call to order the September 14th meeting of the Washington Planning and Zoning Commission. Gene, roll call please.

Rocco Gonzalez.

Here.

Mark Piontek. Here. Mayor Hagedorn. John Boardman. Here. Ken Shear. Here. Chuck Watson. Here. Chad Briggs. Matt Coleman. Here. Mike Wood. Bailey Kitchell. Here. Erin Beckman. Here. Jeff Peck.

Here.

Please rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. First item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from the August 10th meeting. I would entertain a motion. So moved. Second. Motion made and seconded that the minutes be accepted and approved. All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Opposed? Ayes have it. File number 260901, special use permit at 425 Zed Drive for new and used vehicle sales.

Yes, good evening Commission. This is a special use permit request on the east side of town here on at 425 Zeta Drive for a new and used vehicle sales business. Here are the structures as mentioned here and just some context about this request. We've seen a few of these in the past year but Most auto oriented uses are permitted uses in our commercial two district. But there is this provision that whenever certain auto oriented uses are within 50 feet of a residential district, that triggers the special use permit process. So that's why this request is here. before you tonight. So just some facts about the case here. These are existing commercial buildings. The applicant has indicated no major structural changes are planned. And there have been similar auto-oriented businesses that have occupied this space previously. Some comments about the request. With no structural changes and only a change in use, staff see little impact to the neighboring residential properties. The applicant has indicated that this, let's see, where's my cursor here? This northern building here is to be storage and that storage building acts as kind of a buffer between the actual sale of the vehicles and the residences to the north. We see no issues with allowing an existing commercial site to be operated similarly to how it has been for years and I kind of go into it in the staff report but it meets all applicable special use criteria and we recommend approval. Any questions?

The only thing I got is just the hours. I mean, he's saying hours 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., but once it's got the special use permit, that stays with the property. Beyond that, is there some that we...

I mean it would stay it would stay with the property for that use so if someone were to come in say after the dealership were to move out and you know do but if I'm saying if they're going to use it the same way.

Yeah, that's correct that you're you're right that that that we're going to you know, somebody bought them out sure same business. He's saying, you know, 10 a.m. to 2, but if another business, can we just say basically not that?

Sorry, you all as the commission, you don't have to impose. Staff, we're not recommending any conditions. If that's something that the commission feels is appropriate to add as a condition, you certainly can do that. But the request currently and the way staff see it, we aren't recommending any conditions that would limit the hours. That's just something that the applicant has said.

Hey, these are the hours that I'm gonna operate as does that make sense makes sense But that's what I would almost like to see something that beyond X reasonable amount of time in the evening since it's right next to residential air so you're recommending a condition a condition of No later than whatever five or six in the evening or some kind of thing like okay for you know normal business hours

Any other questions? Have any local residents said anything about it?

I have gotten an email from one resident who said that she would be in attendance tonight. So that's what I've heard.

The only other question I have, and I noticed on the first page under the file number, you have listed automobile wash and detailing service, and then in the synopsis it says new and used vehicle sales.

That's a mistake. It just should be new and used vehicles.

Clarifies that. Any other questions or concerns of commissioners?

And the applicant is here to speak tonight if you want to come up and discuss it. If you feel there's anything else to talk about.

Please come up and state your name and address. Yes, my name is James Harris.

Address is 425 Zetta Drive. That's where you live? Oh, my personal address is 4726 Nebraska Avenue, St. Louis, Missouri, 63111.

Thank you. So any questions for the applicant. Would you be opposed if we put in a restriction of 5, 6 on this.

I mean, I understand that's your hours that you're listing that you know with a special use permit it stays with our concerns it stays with the property. So if you sold it to somebody else we're just want to make sure that they you know, abide by some reasonable hour for the neighbors in the area and stuff is about it.

When I went by there today that there's a, I guess it's a house or a storage unit or whatever it is just to the west of the 425 building, which is outside of the special use permit, but it looks like their driveway.

Talking about this property right here?

Yes, go to the other, there you go, the one that's got the, just to the west of, right there.

Oh, that's a separate property?

It's a separate property. And it looks like their driveway, you can kind of see it there on the picture, you can see where the tire tracks are, comes into your property. Yes, sir. Do they access the back of that property? Yes, sir.

We were going to keep that access open for them. Our main access will be coming off of Zeta and left into the property, but it's going to circle around. So that way that everything stays the original, how they had it before, and they're able to get in and out of the property. We just want to be compliant with everybody around and not change up anything too much for them. They've been using it for so long, so I don't see a need to change it.

So you've already talked to them and got that all worked out? Yes, sir. Do you have a written agreement under that? I don't.

I'm sorry, I don't. Is there some limit on the number of cars that can be here or as many as they can fit?

uh that would be no no i mean if that's if that's a concern that would be something that you could discuss in the condition of approval but no at this current time no

So can I ask what types of cars you're going to be selling?

So basically we're going to just be minimized to like maybe 10 cars. Within that, when you come off of Zeta, they're going to be kind of like stacked like this. And we're not going to use that whole area, kind of keep it open just for driving as well. The kind of cars we're going to be selling, my main cars I like to focus on is reliable cars. I like Toyotas, Hondas. Things of that nature. I really don't do anything outside of that. I mean, there's nothing wrong with the other manufacturers. I'm a mechanic myself, so I only sell what I feel like is reliable with my mom and my sister would drive. So those are mainly the ones I sell. Mazdas, some as well. Lexuses and everything like that.

I didn't know if you were doing specialty cars or something like that.

No, not at this time.

Okay. Any other questions for the occupant or owner? No.

If, to Mr. Watson's point, if it's hours or longer, I mean, is there lighting there on ground? I know there's a small light on the building closest to Zeta there, but is there any proposal to put lights up at all?

They, well, the owner of the property, he just put up a small light outside of that warehouse right there. So it lights up a little bit. But most of our business will be online. So we won't have a lot of traffic coming through and everything like that. So, yeah, those hours, we try to stick to those just because we know that it's residents surrounding the area. So we just, like, I don't want to make a lot of noise and, you know, cause disruptions to anyone, even dinner a certain amount of time or anything like that. So, yeah, we try to stay compliant to everything around.

Mean they do have a repair shop right across the road. I heard and stuff with me and team, right?

Okay, any other questions comments? Hmm.

So are we gonna put a time restriction on it? You need to hear it. Anybody else wants to speak?

Oh Thank you.

Thanks, sir.

Is there anybody else in the audience that would like to speak to this? Please state your name and address

and we build a house and I'm at 301 Zeta Drive. I do have a couple questions. One, I'm guessing that you're saying only about 10 cars.

Will they all be in the lot? Ma'am, address us and we'll get him back up here. That's okay.

On the lot or will they be in the street is a concern of mine. And I can show you pictures why I do have a concern about that. It has nothing to do with him. It has something to do with B&T that's been ongoing and will be addressed with the police department. They have, just for your notification, and it's gonna benefit them, they like to park derelict vehicles that won't start. They have Sturm's Towing, I talked to the driver, I have pictures of it. The driver said they are not allowed to park these cars in B&T's auto lot and that's their business because they can't roll it down the hill and get it into their business. That's not my fault, that's not the neighbor's fault, that's not the city's fault. But if they wanna have that business, they should have the, you know, how to get them into their lot, whatever equipment it takes. And this young man told me he has been chewed out by BNT several times because he's put it in their lot. And they do not want it in their lot. They want it parked on the city street. This one sat there for five days this past week.

Okay, so you're planning on taking that up with the police department?

Yes, I will take that up to them, but that's a concern. The reason I'm asking that question is because I've already got that issue. They're also parking in front of a fire hydrant, so that's an issue. If there was a fire there, they wouldn't be able to get to that. It's a city ordinance that covers that, so. Yes, but they're still parking them there because he won't let them do that. If you want this. Just give that to the police. Do what? Give that to the police. Okay, all right. So yes, my concern along with the ours operation tended to I have no problem with my concern is Later in the evening. Is there a lot of cars coming in people coming in? you know that kind of thing all hours of the night to check out the cars and There again lighting was an issue noise is mechanic work going to happen on site. Is it not going to happen on site? I

Were you happy with what he told us here as far as meeting your concerns?

Yeah, the 10 to 2 I'm happy with, but I don't want to see it extended to they can bring them in at 8, 9 o'clock at night, they can take them out 8, 9 o'clock at night. don't need beeping literally my bedroom is on that side and yes there were businesses in there before hot rods six o'clock on a Saturday morning they decided they want everybody in the neighborhood to know they have a hot rod it's not very fun it's your only time to sleep So that is basically my biggest concerns is making sure that we have the hours covered and like I said, if we can limit the amount of cars to be put on there, that's a very small lot. I don't know if y'all been through there to see, but I don't know how, you know, if he feels they can get 10 in there. I don't have a problem with that, but I just don't like to see 100 cars sitting in this little lot and then sitting there for how long.

As long as they wouldn't be on the street, you would be okay?

Yeah, yeah, within the confines.

He can only fit physically so many to start with and stuff, but he's gotta be able to get them in and out if he's selling them and stuff, he's gotta, you know, so.

Right, right. Okay, any other comments?

No, I think that's it.

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to speak to this? Anyone else from the commissioner have any other questions?

I just wrote down the stuff she had. I guess we're going to talk about that a little bit. Okay, go ahead. Well, I just was curious, if we're going to do hours, what are the hours going to be?

Seemed like her concern was 8, 9 o'clock.

Mm-hmm.

So.

Does the city ordinance say anything, Mark, that says?

Not unless you specify in the special use permit.

I mean, it's 6 AM, right? 7 o'clock. We can't pick up trash before 6 a.m. You can't operate. Is that correct or not in a business?

Yeah, I mean, that applies specifically to trash pickup and construction. That's not a general. No.

What about contractors and construction? Does that cover their also?

There's some regulations on that for heavy equipment, rock breaking, things like that.

And what hours are those the same? I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.

I just looked at that two months ago. I think it depends on the time of year.

I can pull that up.

Yeah, let's see. My only concern with putting a limit on it is that gets to be an enforcement issue, a time limit on a specific property. And how does that get enforced?

Mm hmm.

You know, that's that's the because it's well, it's it don't do that with other properties. That's not already covered by the other city ordinances. And I'm not that I'm saying that we can't, but I think we need to be a little careful there that we don't just single out one problem. Not apply that more generally.

We do have from trying to think that there's a used car lot on fifth Gosh, I can't remember the other street. Right across from the auto parts place. And that abuts residential. I'm not sure that there's limits on there.

So basically everything else falls under noise, nuisance, complaints kind of things and stuff from that.

Is that what you're looking up, what the noise ordinance is?

Yeah, I'm trying to find the specific contractor. Basically still at 6 o'clock in the morning if they're firing up, you know, whatever loud engines and stuff like that that still would follow under the nuisance and stuff like that.

Okay.

So that again is still complaint driven. Yeah.

And while he's looking for that, the parking on the street, that's already, that's not us. That's already dealt with in the city. Dealt with in the traffic code, if I remember right.

Okay. I'm sorry. Power tools, garden tools, lawnmowers, snow blowers, similar equipment. Within a thousand feet of a residence October 1 through May 31 is 7 a.m. To 9 p.m June 1 through September 30th at 6 a.m. To 9 p.m. Monday through Friday 7 a.m. To 9 p.m Saturday and Sunday and that's basically for lawn service and then construction work and is October 1 through May 31, 7 a.m. to 9 p.m., June 1 through September 30, 6 a.m. to 9 p.m., Monday through Friday, 7 a.m. to 9 p.m., Saturday and Sunday.

So still, those are under home use and sort and stuff type stuff anyway. So that satisfies me.

That satisfies me, yeah. It's fine with me. Is that? I mean.

Yeah, I don't, yeah.

You're going to need to specify it in the special use permit. Because what I just read applies specifically to construction.

But didn't it say or similar equipment? Lawn mowers, snow blowers or similar equipment?

I don't know how that applies to sale of used cars.

But I don't think the concern is, well, maybe it is the sale of the cars. I think there was a mechanic work.

Mechanic work and loading, unloading vehicles and stuff.

And I don't think that would apply either.

I don't think it should be limited outside of those hours, but I agree that it should be specified.

You're saying it should be specified

If you want to, it needs to be specified in the special use permit. But I don't know that we've ever done that.

Yeah, I think the problem is if we make this guy do it, we didn't do it for anybody else. Right. Correct. And then either they're going to. Right.

But sets a strange precedence for what we would have to do in the future. And while I see what we even remember, right, like in the future.

Are you saying that we would just need to say subject to

We'd probably have to change the code for these kind of zones, or if we were to do anything. We'd have to remember for each special use permit with these type of new and used car sales.

Not necessarily. A special use permit, that's why it's a special use permit, because it's a case-by-case basis. Each case is unique. Right. you have you know the power to impose conditions if if the situation calls for it if you know that would make the use appropriate in that location so i mean i don't know i'll defer to mark here if that would be an appropriate precedent to set or not so i'd be a little leery about doing it because we have not done it

You could apply it to the new car dealerships that are right next to residential neighborhoods. And we've certainly never done it for them.

Sure. Yeah. Okay.

Thank you. There was another one that I just thought of on South Point Road or East 5th Street that we approved. It was only a two-lot used car sales, but there were no restrictions on that. I was right to make that.

And not having the mechanics, I mean, not having the repair, I think, is the key as well.

It's just the sales. But it's like, to me, it still all falls under if they're making continuous noise at a given hour, nuisance ordinance is going to cover it.

That's right.

If anyone really feels like it's not okay, they can call up the city. Right.

And that's not necessarily, you know, just basically what this business is. It's going to cover anything.

Right. Right. So that applies to noise after hours. It applies to derelict vehicles on the street. It applies to all that. Exactly. It's a non-emergency phone call and taken care of. So I think it would be. Matt, are you okay with that?

Yeah. Chuck? Yeah, I'm good with that, yeah. And I would entertain a motion.

I motion to approve.

Second. Motion made and seconded that we approve the special use permit for 425 Zeta Drive. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it. Thank you. Next item, file number 26-0905, annexation 5001 South Point Road, Andrea Strotman.

Yes, good evening. So these next two items are kind of one in the same here. We're going to discuss the annexation, preliminary plat, kind of the same breadth here. So here is at 5001 South Point Road, this stone house. Let's see here.

Where's my cursor?

The stone house near here, maybe if it'll work, yeah. Over off South Point Road. And so the proposal here is to subdivide and annex this piece of land into the city limits, into eight lots here, all off this cul-de-sac, Johanna Drive. and um let's see here so this cul-de-sac is proposed to be um 30 feet that is uh down five feet from our you know typical street allowance if a cul-de-sac is shorter than 770 feet i believe then it can be dropped down to that 30 foot Minimum needs to be parking on on one side and the applicant has indicated that there's gonna be a See here a hydrant on the north side of the street. So they're gonna make no parking on the north side here the cul-de-sac bulb meets our minimum Diameter this we're good good there. It's hits the 96 feet and ALL THE PARCELS ARE R1A COMPLIANT. THEY ARE 10,000 SQUARE FEET AND HAVE THE REQUIRED 70-FOOT LOT WIDTH. AND THEN THE PLAN AS THE APPLICANTS HAVE INFORMED ME IS TO KEEP THE OLD STONE HOUSE ON LOT ONE AND TRY TO FIND A BUYER TO REHAB THAT HOME THERE. In terms of utilities, so the sanitary and storm sewer are going to be taken. Let's see here. So they're gonna be taken down from Cardinal Crest here, and they're going to put in a new manhole right there where my cursor is, and then run it down through the utility easement between these two homes to connect to the new cul-de-sac down here. And then there's an already existing water line along South Point that they'll just run up the street and connect all the homes to. There's also going to be detention in the back of Lot 5. This is all kind of on a downward slope, so it should drain down. And this extra detention basin, the applicant has indicated that it's just kind of extra that Stone Crest Lake is going to accommodate all the detention for this lot here.

Did I miss anything?

And yeah, in terms of zoning, the future land use map recommends that this area be annexed in as low density residential. So fits in with our comprehensive plan.

Any questions? Has the engineering department looked at the stormwater retention and done the calculations for that area to make sure that's going to be adequate? I haven't heard one way one way or the other so I'm not sure I'm not sure what do you mean John well I just want to make sure that that extended detention is gonna be okay to hold things back and be enough

Well, they've got a pipe to go from there too.

But I also want to know would like to know if that is included in with the calculations for Stonebridge that we're just not adding 8 lots to run down in there without having those calculations.

Sure, I mean I yeah I was I was informed you know by the by the applicant that you know that the Stonecrest Lake was was was built to accommodate you know this this future growth here because this was a holdout landowner when stone stone crest was originally developed but I've not heard from our engineering department regarding that that specific request to sell okay any other questions from I have a question and this is something I was talking to Aaron with offline so I just want to make sure it's public so the street width and forgive my ignorance here 30 foot

When, didn't it always used to be 35? Like I was just looking at the road behind it in Stonecrest, I did the measurements on Google Earth, it's 35.

Only if it's a full-length cul-de-sac. There's a provision in the code that they can go down to a narrower width for a shorter length.

But in Stonecrest, it's a full-length cul-de-sac.

That was yeah, maybe I mean, I I don't know when now it's a short one just like this That's 30 for the one right behind it if you went back to the map sure and that's and that's I I can I can believe that but I guess my question is for those who have been on Planning and zoning longer was that something that was the 30-foot called sex? That's something that was added in somewhat recently or is that always been there?

It's been recent because basically like you said the parking is only allowed on the one side of the street That's part of the stipulation for the shorter one and being able to do the narrower street

I don't remember when that changed.

No, but it's been a while. It's been more recent than... Yeah, because I've been on the board for like six years and it's been within my term.

Oh, you think so? Oh, wow. I thought I was going to say 10, but... No, it's been within my term here.

So that's the rule if it's under 770 feet long? 750. 750. Thank you. It can be 30 feet wide? Correct.

As long as there's no parking on one side, right?

Yeah, the no parking on the other side is what... is the other stipulation. So you still have the width for the emergency. Okay.

And if I remember correctly, and again, don't quote me on this, but I think we established that when we did R1D lots, when they were smaller, 7,500 square foot lots, five feet of space made a big difference on a lot. When you want to put a cul-de-sac in and you take five feet off of something on the property, you can build them lots smaller and it allowed it to happen that way.

So that was designed not for this. It was designed for, like, well.

I don't want to say it wasn't designed. We put it in where you could do that on anything shorter than 750 feet. As long as the eye of the cul-de-sac was large enough and met it and you had parking on one side, then 30 feet was allowed.

That's the biggest thing, Matt, is there's only parking on one side.

So your minimum clear width available for like an emergency vehicle. Is still the same. Is still the same.

It's the fireman and me talking. And that's great. But it's still the same. I think you should.

Yeah.

It's still to me for a change.

Well, I know. We listened to this guy for years. Yeah, I know. I don't mean to beat up on that. But that is like a city ordinance. That wasn't decided by planning and zoning. No. So it's not a special use. That's what the code says. That's what the code says.

The most recent revision was in March of 2017. That's got a very narrow street.

I remember there was something going on there because it's got the

The alleyways, too? Those streets, are those 30-foot streets?

No, that's different. That's a whole different development. That was a planned development. And that's the reason why that was taken as that development and not a citywide approach. They were very strict, and those are all sprinkled buildings going in there, too.

And Matt, too, are those street signs, are they blue or are they green?

I don't know.

If they're blue, you know, they're private street. They are responsible for that's what we adopted those to be able to, you know, so. And they've gotten narrower streets because of some of that too.

And the other comments from commissioners on the zoning are the we're going to vote on these separately, but we'll either one of the two.

I mean, it's pretty much the only parcel left in that area. So I think it's appropriate.

Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this? At least come up and state your name.

Andrea Strotman, 405 Steepleview Lane, Washington. I'm the applicant, if you have any questions.

You guys look at me like I have more questions. I just complain about the street width. I'm done.

Yeah. Anybody have any questions for her? So do you have somebody for the house interested in rehabbing it?

Still looking, so yeah, we would like to see it restored. I heard Nick was doing that. You're looking for a project, right?

I heard Nick was doing that.

free time I got free time yeah in your opinion Andrea the in reference to the 30-foot streets that's how you're taking it and that's why it was designed that way is that correct yeah and I mean for what's gonna be there I think the driveways you're really not gonna have much street parking eight lots only right

Yeah, so did you work out the stormwater retention? Did you have a engineer look at that or how did you determine that?

Well, we actually I found Like the original stormwater calculations for Stonecrest Lake. Okay, and that Incorporated that piece as developed as r1a So the detention for that lot will be in the Stonecrest Lake.

So you did find those find those calculations Yeah, the original ones

So we're just planning to hold back the water and then to route it to the lake.

OK. Very good. I'm going to ask this question. I know he's going to get mad at me for asking this, but if it was someone else applying for those eight lots, you could still put the water into Stonecrest Lake?

Got permission from there you go.

Okay.

That's why I mean, I guess that's what I'm just asking I guess I don't I don't know how that would work You're just holding it back and then it could go to the lake made aware that it's it was taken into account Yeah, okay.

Hey John, so do you have that agreement in writing? I

Look at your your map.

I mean your layout there item number 25 in the upper left is What does this say? It says stormwater detention requirement was satisfied in the original Stonecrest subdivision.

Okay, there it is.

It's on the, and it's signed by the engineer. Yep, okay. The professional engineers.

I didn't read the fine print. And that is fine print. That's fine, very fine print. Any other comments or questions? No.

So it takes care of that.

Sorry, thank you.

Thank you. It's just because Chuck's glasses are sitting just a little further down his nose.

Anybody else? Okay. Any other questions or comments from commissioners? Anybody else? Or is there anybody else in the audience that would like to speak to this? Okay. Then we'll talk first about the file number 260905, the annexation. I would entertain a motion for that. Motion to approve the annexation.

Seconded.

Motion made and seconded that we approve file number 0905 for the annexation of 5001 South Point Road, about four acres. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it. Then file number 260906, preliminary plat for Pinnacle Ridge Estates at 5001 South Point Road for the subdivision approval.

Make the motion including the staff recommended condition that they have on there.

Second that. Motion made and seconded that we approve the preliminary plat for Pinnacle Ridge Estates, including the staff recommendations. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it.

What's the staff recommendation?

I think I let's see improvements must be completed per approved construction plans prior to a file final plat being approved or performance. It's just saying it needs to be the improvements need to be in before final plat is. Yeah, it's the last of our staff.

Okay. It's the last line on his next item.

File number 260908 rezoning of 118 East 4th Street from R3 to R2.

Yes. Good evening. So this is a request to rezone the, I realize now it's blue on blue and kind of hard to see here, but this, this is the property that let's see, do I have an aerial here?

Yeah, here we go.

Here's a better aerial of this property right here over here on fourth street. from R3 to R2O. And just some context about this request. The applicant is wishing to build a single family home on this property that is currently zoned R3. This request went before the, and I guess a bit of additional Context this request not this specific request, but the applicant went before the Board of Adjustment Last month to try and get some additional square footage to decrease their front setback to be able to build a front porch onto their Lots and the Board of Adjustments tabled their request and said hey a rezoning might be more what you're what you're looking for and so staff looked into that request and found the following so taking a look at our comprehensive plan the future land use plan designates this lot which is in red right here as downtown part of the downtown mixed-use neighborhood district which our comprehensive plan says you know is a has a lot of existing residential and mixed use that surrounds the downtown core and the recommended uh zoning classification here is r20 however as you may have noticed a lot of this the surrounding area is zoned r3 which is not the recommended zoning classification so What's going on here? Well, this area was zoned multifamily many years ago when a lot of these properties were multifamily in nature for the shoe factory back in the day. And that zoning has kind of stuck around as time has progressed. But... Many of those properties were converted into single family homes, but the underlying zoning stayed as multifamily. And so because of that, the applicant would have to request a special use permit as single family homes are not a Permitted also I should sorry something I should have mentioned up up front is this is a vacant lot and they are wanting to build a single-family home and so to be able to do that to their to their plans as specified they would need to get a special use permit and a Variance to be able to accommodate the front vestibule that they would like to would like to put on So with that being said, the fact that the future land use map supports this rezoning, saying that it's the recommended land use category, I think it might be helpful to kind of zoom out here a little bit and show you what I mean here. So this stretch of, let's see, downtown between Market and Locust Street is all zoned R3. But most of these properties in here are single family, whereas the rest of the neighborhoods kind of immediately surrounding downtown are part of the R2 overlay. And our future land use map says that all of this area, or most of this area, excuse me, in pink here, along with the light blue multifamily, the highest and best use is the R2 overlay. So even though it's next to a number of other R3 properties, It would not be a spot zoning because our future land use, our future plan supports this property being part of the R2 overlay district. So just a few more staff comments about this request. Meets all lot requirements for the R2 family overlay district, lot size, lot width. There's no screening required for our two properties future land use plan Already went over that and the proposed use slash zoning is consistent with the surrounding neighborhood. So surrounding neighborhood is in kind of surrounding downtown in a more broader sense and so staff recommend approval any questions

So you said that he wanted a variance to do a front porch.

Correct.

But it's only already is back at a 10 foot front setback, which is really pretty close to the street. They're wanting to bring it closer than that.

No, no, no. The R3, the R3 district has a 25 foot front setback, a 25 foot rear setback. The R2 overlay district, which is what they're requesting as a 10 foot front setback.

So there isn't a variance that's going to be needed? Correct. Correct. If it's rezone, then we should do this instead. Yeah, that's why it's helpful.

If it's rezone R2, they don't need a special use permit, and they don't need a variance. Correct.

Just to see the sound change.

I guess, Aaron, I do have a couple questions. And generally, I kind of took some time the neighborhood there took a look around. I do think we've we've got a kind of an issue there with you know, the majority of what's there is single family correct right majority of what's there is is not matching the zoning. I do have a couple little questions and more more really for my understanding than necessary reflecting on this particular request.

Sure.

If we're going to rezone it, why would we not go with the contiguous zoning and do the C three to the West? We're single family residential is permitted in C three. They would have the same. It would still be a permitted use, but we would have our zoning would still be contiguous. We wouldn't have a single lot that was out in the middle by itself. You know, is this a situation where we address this problem is the best way to address this one lot of time. Do we need to have a discussion about that bigger stretch down that street at some point. You know? Yeah. Are we just fixing it? Are we just going to deal with this piece by piece over the years?

Correct. Yeah, yeah. To answer both your questions, to your first question. C3. Yes, thank you. Sorry, I lost my train of thought there. The answer would be because, and I considered that originally, but the answer would be because our long range plan has, hey, this piece of property spells it out pretty clearly. Here's your orange. Right here, you know, it says all that all that dark red should be c3, but the orange is r2 You know, and that's the recommended zoning classification the definition matches So we want to stay consistent with our long-range plan is as much as we possibly can when it comes to to rezoning so that that just that definition and the recommended zoning classification are the reason why we're recommending our R2 as opposed to C3. Yeah. And then for your second question, yes, that would be something that I think we probably should address because I agree completely that there is kind of a, I mean, really that whole section is non-conforming. You know, there's like, there's one or two apartment buildings.

There's a couple pieces that conform. Yeah, yeah. 90% of that stretch is non-conforming. Correct, yeah, yeah, I agree. The question I got for you real quick is just on the setbacks themselves. Sure. If we go to the r2 overlay district are the setbacks are the setbacks on the the new house on the new parcel and going to be similar to what's around it now.

Yes. I'd say so because you've got C3 to the west. Thank you. And you've got non-conforming homes across the street and to the east and in the rear. So yes, I would say so.

currently nonconforming. Yes, thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, but no, I'm directly across the street from this house or future house. So I mean, and we're all right up to the sidewalk. Sure. Essentially. So yeah.

Yeah. So that's definitely something we can we can address in the future for sure. So.

I do notice there's a little sliver that runs over to the other street. I guess that's part of that same line.

It is, it is, yes.

And why, do we know?

Your guess is as good as mine. Don't hold me to this, but I think at one point there was a garage back there, and that was a driveway to get to the garage that was off of that, whatever that street.

It's heavily used. not that road the street the driveway it's not really a driveway it's but it is heavily used so i yeah i think it must be like considered a driveway i mean there really isn't a driveway on the front there's street parking there'd be no space there for it yeah i think it's almost like an alley almost almost okay is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this

We beat it.

So Aaron, I'll have a question.

Hold on. I'm sorry. They were building up the courage to come up.

Name and address, please.

Hi, I'm Sarah . I live at 12 Oak Street. I'm the designer for the house that is going to be coming here. So any questions specifically?

So the only question I have are you designing the little sliver of land that's shown there yet to be the driveway to the back garage or?

We have discussed it but the sliver is actually not wide enough to be a driveway. I think it's like right next to the neighbor's driveway, and you would kind of have to share a driveway with the neighbor behind. And so it's not actually wide enough to be a driveway. I'm not really sure, again, why it's part of this lot, but.

Could ride a motorcycle on it.

Yeah. The plan would probably be to put a garage on the lot eventually, but I don't think that that would be able to be used as the driveway.

So it would have to be a shared agreement driveway if you did something?

If we did that, yes, yeah.

And you're proposing what style of house, just a single floor?

It's a two-story, it's kind of like a colonial kind of style.

So a two-story?

Yes.

Any questions from commissioners for the designer? Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Any other questions or comments from commissioners? If not, then I would entertain a motion.

Motion to approve the rezoning.

I second. Motion made and seconded that we approve the rezoning of 118 East 4th Street from R3 to R2. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it. Okay, next item on the agenda, file number 260909, preliminary plat for Elijah McLean's homestead, 600 slash 602 West Front.

Yes, good evening. So this is a subdivision request to split the hotel and the kind of main restaurant there at Elijah McLean's into two separate properties. A couple things of note here, kind of the thing that jumped out at me the most when this came in was the fact that the hotel And the main building are non-conforming to the general commercial district. There's a 25-foot rear setback there, and that would normally not be permitted. However, this subdivision, I talk about this in the staff report, as the subdivision doesn't cause any further non-conformities than already exist, it would be permitted under our subdivision regulations. The other thing I mentioned in the staff report is the fact that there needs to be a shared parking agreement between the two properties as Elijah McClain's requires more parking than is actually on the lot. So that'll be in place once that's final platted. So those are the only two things of note. Otherwise, just splitting the lots here. Access is from both lots. Yeah, any questions?

So access to lot one is how?

From Johnson Street there. There's an entrance off Johnson.

Oh, I know. I see where the line is. I got it. Yeah, this is the line. Right. There's a lot of lines on that piece. Yeah, there are, yeah. Any questions from commissioners? Is there anyone in the audience who would like to speak to this? Great. He's got courage. Name and address, please, sir.

9 Irish Lane, Washington, Missouri. Let's take care of old business. I can't stop somebody from dumping water on me when they're higher than me. Unless you wanna take it out of there in one gallon jugs, I can't stop, so. I wanted to talk to you about that anyway. That lake is designed to take all that, just so you know, ridge to ridge in 2000, actually 2000, so. Doesn't matter who owns it, they're gonna dump water on me, so.

But she did put a little detention, basically.

So that's that, but. This here request is just to split the two properties, just strictly from a liability standpoint. We've been advised by our attorneys to have two separate parcels, two separate entities. Somebody trips and falls on one, the other one's not liable, vice versa. So just really all we're doing, gonna operate business as usual, so.

Okay. Any commissioners have questions for the applicant?

So he needs... The entrance from Johnson Street needs to be there, but you're not going to use that.

You're not going to... Oh, they use it. It's open all the time.

What I'm saying is not... You're not going to put a line down the middle and put a curb there.

No, in fact, I'll make sure that the... City attorney blesses the inner agreement parking, you know shared parking agreement for both parcels, right? It's kind of like Lowe's Lowe's has I mean is there a problem created if you want to sell the Elijah McLean's and The it sell it individually, but the parking agreement has to stay it'll be right It'll be recorded as a deed requirement. Okay. Yeah Okay

Any other questions from commissioners? If not, I would entertain a motion.

Motion to approve. Second.

Motion made in second that we approve the preliminary plaque for Elijah McLean's homestead at 600602 West Front. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it. Next item, 260910, rezoning lot four of the terrace in Washington subdivision from R1C to R2.

Yes, good evening. This is a rezoning request just south of Don Avenue here to rezone the parcel you see on screen from R1C single family attached to R2 two family. So lot four here, part of the greater terrace in Washington subdivision. I believe this is the original plat here that created that lot four. but it has since been reworked with the development of those apartments off Don Avenue. Here's its most current form. So how this looks in reality, you know, Don Avenue is complete. There eventually will be an intersection with KJ Understall Drive with Highway 100. It's not in existence yet, but there is a right-of-way dedicated to the city along this that will front this parcel. And just some history, but some of you were probably on planning and zoning when this came through a number of years ago. And this parcel was indicated or created as kind of a buffer between the multifamily to the north and single family to the south. And this is a request to kind of align the current city initiatives. So let me back up just a little bit here. In March of this year, this was a project I was involved with. We amended our two-family zoning district to kind of deal with some of the issues we were having with the R1C district in terms of townhomes and whatnot. And our kind of long-term plan with the R1C district is to eventually whenever the next major code rewrite or zoning amendment is to occur to kind of phase that out of existence because the R2 district is kind of our primary, you know, that's what we're directing. We're not saying, hey, you should rezone to R1C. We're saying, hey, you should rezone to R2. So the developer has taken it upon himself to request a rezoning to R2 So whenever that develops, you know, he can utilize the R2 zoning, which is our attached single family zoning district. Or, you know, it's our staff's preferred attached single family zoning district, I should say. So talking about our future land use map, well, R2 is not specifically listed as, you know, the use that low density residential is at. We do mention here Let's see. Come on, cursor. We do mention here mix of detached and attached villas in a spacious suburban setting. I would argue this setting is pretty spacious, and we are permitting single family and single family attached with this rezoning. So just some comments here. The lot meets all lot requirements for the R2 family zoning district to build anything else on this lot other than one duplex or one single family home, there would need to be a further this lot would need to be further subdivided. That's the case under its current zoning. Well, actually under its current zoning, you would need to subdivide it to build any residential. But under the rezoning, you would need to subdivide it even more. No screening required for R2 properties. The road needs to be built before homes are allowed to be constructed. Future land use plan recommends attached villas in a suburban setting. And as I mentioned, R2 is our primary attached single-family zoning district after the code changes. And most importantly, this rezoning preserves the density buffer between the apartments that are going to be built directly north of this parcel and that already exist and these single-family homes to the south. So that being said, staff recommend approval. Any questions?

How wide is that strip?

I was looking for dimensions. Yeah, I don't know. Let's measure that real quick. Maybe the, yeah.

It's 110 foot. I'm sorry. Name and joke. 604 Heritage Lake Lane. Thank you. It's 110 foot. 110 foot deep from the new proposed street. 25 foot front, 25 foot back. You got a 60 foot building. The ducts that you get to put there.

Very good.

That's all I was looking for. Thank you. Not a problem. Any commissioners have any questions.

And we're doing it now, instead of doing it later. That basically is right. That's basically what we're doing.

Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this? My only concern is since he's talking about the same type of

Building that we agreed to for the buffer Is going to our to going to allow those units to be rental properties as opposed to single owners I mean the reason they put that buffer in was because it would keep us not directly Involved with the you know rental units or apartment units Going to our to from what I read it looked like you could put you put in the duplexes but then run them unrestricted daily, months of the year, whatever you call that.

There's no restriction on them being owner-occupied or rental property, just like your neighbor could decide they're going to rent out their house. We don't.

So even if there are one, I'm under the same rule. The same rule applies. One little secondary thing that property does drain through the corner of my property. Obviously, there's nothing built on it. It'll probably come up when construction starts so there can be addressed at that time still, right?

I'm not Correct Thank you, thanks for being here any other questions or comments I

Kurt Understall is the applicant, non-Irish Lane. Aaron pretty much hit it on the nail on the head. For those, we annexed this 26 acres originally, and the intent was to create the buffer between the R1 folks. At the time, they weren't even in the city limits, but that's the right thing to do. I like to do zoning textbook, and this is pretty much a textbook. Multifame along the highway, buffer on down. what's driving this is two things one is the gentleman that is building the apartments to the north he's going to start at the bottom I think his plans are city right now plans on putting a few more units in along the Don Avenue so we hope to Work together to get the road built through there With that being said we have a potential builder that wants to build on these units They're gonna be as it was mentioned. They're still going to be either villas are attached to villas one level along there And as far as the the grading comment, you know There's a there's an old ditch between me and Harry there that's been there forever And you know, we'll do the best we can to direct water out of that area But again a lot of that's that's low-lying ditch area. So That's that's the intent and the intent and then this and the other second intent is is For those you don't know me. We've been doing this for you know, 25 30 years I'm the only guy in town that has senior housing Zoning on property because then we figured out that we really can't police that so we got rid of it well, I've got parcels that's got an obsolete zoning and now that Aaron has done the work to get kind of r2 in line and you're really not gonna see developers ever need an R1C. It's gonna be a phased out zoning district. So just kinda getting ahead of it and getting it in line with what the city's future plans are. So again, it'll be single family, either villas or detached villas along that thing as a buffer. So that's kinda what we're trying to do.

Thank you, Kurt.

Any other comments or questions?

Motion to approve.

Second. Motion made and seconded that we approve the rezoning of lot four terrace in Washington subdivision from R1C to R2. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have it. Next item, file number 260911, annexation, 25-acre track adjacent to Highway 47.

Yes, good evening. So this is a request to annex a tract here just south of city limits. You can see it on screen where it is in location to the city limits alongside Highway 47 here. So there was not a staff report as this request came in, kind of as we were closing the window here, but I'll just provide some details about it. So the applicant is requesting C2 general commercial that's consistent with our future land use map. We have this parcel designated as future commercial. Future land use plan recommends commercial development to continue along the highway. Something to note here, property contains part of the intersection between the future east-west parkway and Highway 47. The developer must obtain highway access to actually utilize this property from MoDOT. And that being said, the applicant has requested a motion to table this application until the October meeting. We just wanted to kind of present it. And I'll let Kurt talk about this if you want to any more than I already have. And if you don't, that's OK too.

And police fire and ambulance site plan review and we just the deadline knew where there was concerns about MoDOT needing to make a decision on what's going to take place out there so we just wanted to give MoDOT a heads up of what our intent is there but we hope to bring back a formal plan at next month's meeting showing commercial lots and We potentially have a user that wants to come in the city. So Looking at a you know a contract for annexation to There's a lot of things in motion there let's just say that so we just feel like didn't want to rush you guys didn't want to rush us so

We'll see you back next month.

Okay.

Okay.

Very good. Anybody have any comments or questions? We don't need to vote. Okay. Then the next item, file number 260902, code changes, site distance, triangle discussion, and recommendation.

Yes, I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but this is something that staff has been working on for a number of months here in regards to the site distance triangle in our downtown district. This was brought up a number of months ago in regards to the potential bowling alley development and how the site distance triangle interacts with that. So first off, the site distance triangle, what is it? It's defined in our traffic code. The triangle area at the street intersection of a lot bound by the property lines and the line connecting the two points on the property lines 30 feet from the intersection of the property lines or the projected intersection of the property lines so this is not defined in our zoning but it is referenced several times in our zoning specifically this section right here which states no wall fence or other structure shall be erected or installed and no hedge fence Tree, shrub, growth, or object of any kind shall be erected, installed, or maintained across the site distance triangle. The zoning administrator may have additional site distance in an area as determined by a traffic study. It's also referenced several other times in regards to private roads, driveways, public streets or alleys, just saying, hey, no obstructions. This is problematic for several reasons. The first and foremost is downtown development. So almost every single building downtown that's on a quarter lot is located within the required site distance triangle. And then across town, even still with that 30 by 30 foot, it's hard to find a corner lot without an object of any kind in this required sight distance triangle. The code does not clearly differentiate between objects obstructing visibility in the sight distance triangle and objects that don't impact visibility. And it's kind of bad practice to reference something that is not clearly defined in our zoning code. So that's something that we wanted to clean up. in the packet here i reference some national examples um frankly i you know that they're they're they're good best practice and um but we can just kind of proceed here if you want to take a look at those um you're more than more than uh welcome to but uh the solution to fixing this is first and foremost defining the site distance triangle in our zoning And in discussing this with FIRE and the engineering department, primarily engineering, they harped on the importance of, hey, the existing sight distance triangle that we have for most of Washington is still really important because you have so many places where there's already not great visibility. And if you take that sight distance triangle down anymore in the hopes of spurring downtown development, then you're kind of DOING NOT GREAT THINGS FOR THE DRIVERS ACROSS THE REST OF THE CITY OF WASHINGTON. THAT WAS A CONCERN THAT WAS BROUGHT UP. JUST DEFINING THE SITE DISTANCE TRIANGLE AS IT IS, LETTING THE CITY ENGINEERS HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH PROBLEMATIC INTERSECTIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. um another thing is uh giving uh instead of just saying hey there can be no objects in the site distance triangle uh giving the zoning administrator and city engineer authority to um you know deal with those those problematic issues instead of just saying hey nothing can be allowed in the site distance triangle And then also, this is just reworking this previous code that was previously in two sections, talking about private streets, public streets, alleys, and driveways, that they also should have a sight distance triangle. This is just combining that two and a half to 10 feet visibility. then most importantly this is kind of why we we talked about this code change is within the downtown zoning district and and something that we talked about with fire and engineering was you know there still are a lot of concerns along Fifth Street and there are places for development and if you were to take that site distance down to a 10 by 10 YOU KNOW, THAT PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE ADEQUATE SITE DISTANCE. THAT WAS OUR CITY ENGINEER AND ASSISTANT CITY ENGINEER'S OPINION, AND I RESPECT THAT, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WE OUGHT TO, YOU KNOW, GO WITH WHAT THEY'RE SAYING AS THEIR ENGINEERS IN REGARDS TO THAT. SO WHAT WE CAME UP WITH IS NORTH OF FOURTH STREET, WE CAN HAVE A TEN BY TEN TRIANGLE, WHICH ALREADY EXISTS AT ONE EAST MAINE. AS PART OF THESE CODE REWRITES, I GOT TO RIDE AROUND IN THE PUMPER TRUCK? IS THAT WHAT I WROTE AROUND IN? The ladder, okay, yes, I rode around in the ladder truck with Chief Frankenberg downtown, and it's very enlightening, very enlightening to kind of see, you know, how, why this is important, but, you know, he stated that, you know, this 10 by 10 triangle downtown makes a lot of sense, and he was for it. So, with that being said, I kind of sped through that a little bit, but questions, comments, thoughts on this specific change? Really, this is to, you know, kind of you know not have uh not not to harm new development downtown by making them take a 30 by 30 triangle out of you know any any lot they may have so well and i'm going to elaborate a little bit i kind of started this process and poked the bear if you want to call it sure because

30 foot if you really look at any of the downtown buildings 30 foot really takes a lot a bunch that's a lot so I went down if you go back to the first page in our in our packet where it shows the new building that Andy built I believe Andrew Clary's building down there that is a 10 foot setback from the lot line

Which one is that, the Edward Jones? Yes, top left.

And what that does, I went down and actually looked at it and measured. When you look down the face of that 10 foot diagonal or the diagonal of that 10 foot corner, you can actually see three parking spaces to the right down the hill, down Jefferson. So you do have, and that's if you're stopped at the back in line with that. So if you're coming up to that intersection, you can see three parking spaces to the right. which i thought was more than enough to be able to see just having that 10 foot cut off of a corner and it looks nice you know if you went 30 feet you would have to go back almost to that first set of windows past that to cut that off and what's the point really the building yeah you know you'd have you'd be able to see that whole block coming up the hill So that's why I kind of think that is a good example to look at. I agree. And granted, there's a lot of buildings downtown that are built right on the corner. The new city of public safety building is built that way. You know, and yeah, it is a challenge. And Aaron found that out driving around. Yeah, absolutely. Big truck through downtown and you're going to have that same issue.

So you're you're 10 foot by 10 for you primarily talking about downtown.

We're only talking about down to only or or 3 correct nor for including for correct Street and North correct, OK.

Uh, sorry. So anyway, I did. I just think that is a more reasonable approach to it. Uh, because I think if we try to go any more than that, I think we're, we're just, it's not sure. And it's not going to be as functional as property.

So is the Edward Jones one is that 10 feet.

Yeah, yes, that's that's 10 feet from the inner from the property, not the street curb correct. That's another thing we could we could all right by the street. Yeah, because you know you've got a 6 foot sidewalk there that right so you know, so you can make it sound bigger. But I think if we stay with the property line. I think that's a cleaner.

I agree.

Yeah, I'm a nation by property line versus street. So Well, go ahead.

I was going to say, why 4th Street?

Well, because 5th Street, there were some concerns that the engineering department brought up. Hey, there's a number of developable lots that are within the downtown zoning district that if they were to be built with a 10-foot sight distance triangle, they felt that that wasn't adequate enough to be able to have proper sight distance.

of our comprehensive plan has the redevelopment of 5th Street from Highway 100 into the downtown area. And I think that is part of the reason, too. You would want to have more, possibly more sight distance, because that's going to be more of a major thoroughfare in the long-range plan.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But if we don't do that on 5th Street, are we going to get more sight? It sounds like we're going to get less sight distance, not more.

You require more. I think you require more because of the increased traffic.

This street would potentially be your 30 or 25 or something like that in my opinion.

Okay, but that's not defined yet and it doesn't need to be defined right now?

No, I mean, yeah, it would just be the same as anywhere else in town.

Yesterday. Well, I'm just worried if we don't do anything about it and it starts being redeveloped now, is there some kind of restriction or can they just slap it right up to you?

They're going to have to come back to us anyway with any type of redevelopment.

I think that that's that's that's what this code changes is to is to address sight distance So we have you know something on the books right now. So on Fifth Street, we would have the 30 by 30 to ensure adequate sight distance That's why engineer when I when I went to them and I said hey, you know, we want to do 10-foot triangle, you know along along all new development along Fifth Street. They said well, hey, you know, there's some problematic intersections there and I think that given the rate of speed and you know the the way that the streets intersect I'm not an engineer guys I'm sorry, but you know, they're there they had some concerns with you know, how how the layout there so I Think it also makes a difference that there's fewer stop signs on Fish Street so if you intersection with locusts and Lafayette and you know Elm Street

You know, if you don't have a stop stop sign on 5th Street, it requires a longer site distance where you're talking forth in the end. We put up a new stop sign every week is my opinion.

So Aaron, a couple things. We we do have the definition of the site distance triangle and traffic. Correct. Traffic code and it's referenced in Chapter 300 in the in the in the traffic code. So I guess anything we would do would need to be coordinated then with an ordinance from council to make those two happen.

Not I mean, well, yes, I mean every code change needs an ordinance from from Council but in reference to the traffic code not Oh ice wait, I do see what you're saying. Yeah for for for that exception.

Yeah. Yeah, okay Okay, good point. Yeah Yeah, okay. Okay the other thing to look at in the traffic code part of it that I think needs to be addressed and really not just as much just downtown, but in our our older neighborhoods. The traffic code definition also includes that we have to have a site this is triangle at all alleys. Right and I I don't know how often we're taking fire trucks down alleys. If that's a big concern or not, I don't know. But if you think if you think about downtown here or some of our older residential neighborhoods. in the corners at every intersection on the square. That's a good point. And at the alleys in between, I'm taking a lot of ground, even if I only take 10 feet. Think about the alley between the old post office and the Masonic temple there. you know i can't ever see the fire department taking a fire truck down that alley right we do in a residential area occasionally but nothing usually not the commercial because you're too close to buildings and the other thing i think we need to think about a little bit i i think it's a good solution i think we're on a good start for downtown area but i think we also need to step back a little bit and look at some of our older residential neighborhoods because some of our older residential neighborhoods, if I still take 25 feet off a corner, if somebody loses, if we have a house burn down, right, if somebody's house, they live on a corner and that house burns down, And we go into some of these older residential neighborhoods, and I start taking 25 feet.

I'm going to take a big chunk off of there. For sure.

Right?

Especially in an alley, because they may have a garage built off the alley.

You know, the new developments, the newer developments and the new subdivisions going in, the kind of stuff that our developers are going to be putting in, that 25 foot distance or 30 foot distance is something you can work with and deal with but when you're stuck within that existing grid sure it i think it just becomes a little more challenging so do you think 20 or 15 would be more appropriate for like i think i think not yet you're not recognized just wait for my turn to talk about comment get these guys sister i'm ready to talk

from commissioners mr. understand I just stuck around because I've seen this on the agenda everything you guys are doing is great the only thing I want to interject you give some serious consideration is the tree plantings are the bushes in that triangle The 10 by 10 downtown and the Jeff's Point, if it's stop sign, if it's a four-way stop, that's a whole lot better than if it's a two-way stop and there's bushes and trees. And then in the residential thing, I thought it was 25 by 25. obviously no fences, and then given the authority to city engineering or police department or somebody that says, you know, if you plant a crabapple tree and it loops over 15 years and it just mushrooms out there, that becomes a problem, and you've gotta give these guys the authority to say, by ordinance, you gotta trim that tree. And there are a lot of places in town like that. You know, there was a spot down at Lourdes Church I remember years ago, somebody was talking about a tree that just got Allen. And it was a great landscaping when it went in, but it got out of control. So if you're going to do that to take care of the commercial, look at the residential. I thought it was 25 by 25. And then the only other thing is... EXCLUDE ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, LIKE TRANSFORMERS MAY HAVE TO GO IN OR LIMIT THE HEIGHT OF HOW HIGH THEY CAN GO, YOU KNOW, 30 INCHES OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WE DO. WE DO WITH THIS, YEAH.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU CAN'T, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT TO PUT A FIRE HIGHER THERE. YOU GOT TO PUT AN ELECTRICAL PLUG THERE. THAT'S JUST MY TWO CENTS.

YEAH, WE SAY THAT IT CAN'T BE BETWEEN TWO AND A HALF FEET AND TEN FEET.

But any obstructions can be these guys the authority to eliminate trees and bushes and future if it becomes a problem.

So our city engineer is going to tell us to take out the bump outs on Jefferson. Yes, no. That's what we're saying. No, that's and that's in the right away. Mr. Coleman, our new firehouse. I'd like to know how close that is. If it's within 30 feet to 30 feet, the triangle, not the corner. I bet it is. You think there's enough yard there?

I think so. Yeah, because you have to go by the lot side, the lot.

It'd be funny if we had to cut corners. The one thing, Aaron, too, is I know there's been some discussion for a lot of years about downtown Washington and the community putting in some entrance signs for downtown. Yeah. This discussion might impact how that works, too.

if it's well yeah it would it would have to depend where that sign would be i suppose the the most recent discussion i've i've heard kind of had that sign in a in a mid block where you know the sight distance triangle would not be applicable but absolutely that's that's a great point

And I guess another thing too is how does parking affect some of these things? Because just going by Zeta Drive and coming that way, going past there and looking at that and then driving Third Street to here, tonight, there's a box truck that's parked on the corner on Third Street. And it's like, you know, that's not an old part. That's a semi old part. But it's like there's no way that anybody coming out of that street because it's parked forefoot from the curb There's no way that anybody would even be able to see past him that that is specifically and it's and it's not The the curb is not marked yellow or anything like that. So like it's not marked that he can't park there There's no painting on there. So that's my point. What about I? You know, is that your bring up?

Yeah, no, that's that's that's absolutely already outlined in the traffic code. And that that would be covered by, you know, that that would be an object within the site distance triangle that we would have the authority to to remove.

So in essence, you actually paint yellow back to that 10 feet back. That's where your yellow line would start and your perfect parking spot would start almost.

Yeah, we would we would probably really be talking about Losing a parking space because I mean the parking spaces downtown are pretty close to the intersection Yeah, so we're probably also talking about maybe losing a parking space at the corners at each one to You're talking about on street or off street Why would that why would why would we be losing that?

They came right up to the intersection, and you're doing a triangle, and you're going to lose one spot if you're coming 10 feet back.

If you had the parking moved back to that 10-foot point, I think that would solve the problem, because then you would still have visibility across the face of that building.

Ah, okay. Sorry.

I apologize. We run different wavelengths there. That's more of a discussion for traffic committee and less the zoning.

It brings up a point that there are quite a few places around town. I just experienced one last week at Fulton and 8th. There's a tree there on the corner you cannot see on 8th Street. All over the place. Yeah, yeah.

YEAH, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING TO BRING UP WITH TRAFFIC COMMITTEE THAT I'M SURE WE CAN ABSOLUTELY WORK THROUGH.

2053 PARKING SPOTS IN DOWNTOWN WASHINGTON ARE GOING TO GET CUT BY 25%.

SORRY, JEFF.

GARAGES, THEN. WHAT KEN JUST SAID, THERE ARE POTENTIALLY EIGHT SPOTS ON AN INTERSECTION. POTENTIALLY.

TWO PER ROAD. WE COULD LEAVE THE PARKING SPOTS THERE AND THEN JUST RUN OVER THE CARS WITH OUR FIRE TRUCK. THANK YOU, MATT.

Can we let this guy drive? Royal rumble. Let's go.

Oh, man. I do. Oh, go ahead. That's what always kills John. You guys just need to put a dozer braid on the front of the trucks and just go.

Go to YouTube. There's plenty of videos of that very thing happening.

Don't give them any ideas, Chuck. We pay for them fire trucks.

I do have a question for just fire department related. John and I are both on the fire department, but neither one of us speaks for the fire department. Has the fire chief made a comment on this? Yeah, absolutely. Is he good with the 10 foot? Yes. Okay. That's good.

And you sit on this board to speak for the fire department, let me tell you.

I know, and I've had conversations with Tim about it. He's good with that.

He's come in here and talked. Yeah, Mark, get Mark Scornia in here if you want, you know. Anyway, okay.

So you need a motion to...

Do this yeah recommendation a recommendation, but it sounds like there's still a few things that got to be worked out Right.

Yeah, if you if you feel there are more things that we ought to you know, if like if for example if we feel that we need less sight distance or we want to You know talk about sight distance and inner you know neighborhoods close to downtown that's something I'm I can do or if it's or if the concern is just the alleys I feel like we can take a recommendation tonight and just you know have make that recommendation say hey staff staff definition is fine but we also want to remove the alleys from site distance so do we also need a you know we're north of 4th Street sure we need an east-west definition to this I don't think so. I think it's pretty self-explanatory as to just where the, well, here, let's take a look at C3 district. So it would be anything along the north, and this is just in C3. So I think that everything that's here is adequate.

I mean, I'm fine with the 10-foot thing, but the alleyway is worth... I feel like we need a little clarity there. I mean, are we are we because you're right? I mean, I'm all for the 10 foot thing. But yeah, I mean, you get those alleyways.

I think personally, I think personally, professionally, I think that's a great recommendation and that we should exempt the alleys.

But is that alleys? And maybe this doesn't matter. I mean, alleyways do businesses, commercials have their like, I'm not sure we should do that for a commercial. Occupancy right or isn't it just a residential alley?

In the light blue see three three so in the light blue here any alley So that's an alley would be a secondary means of access. So there aren't honestly too many. There's this one here between downtown Washington and Everything on main here. Let's see.

I guess I'm just alley. I just want to make sure there's not like a technical definition for an alley there is You know, I guess I'd be curious to know what that technical definition is secondary means of access secondary means of that that's the definition.

I mean really taking a look at it. There aren't too many hours.

I think the downtown I mean behind the the old Calvin theater. There's an alley that's between residential and commercial. You know, so that's one there. We're not put in a fire are we back there. would hope not this block oh no is that private i mean we mentioned the post office well that's all i mean i mean it is an alley technically but it's part of it's part of the parcels this property right here oh whoops sorry so is an alley that's a city-owned street

Or is it, it's a dedicated street? Yeah. Well, it's not a street, but it's dedicated right away. Right away, right.

So does the city maintain it?

Yeah.

They pave it and, okay.

So, I mean, really. If we added in the recommendation to exempt alleyways, we would be good.

Yeah, and I think that it would only be applicable to this right here.

We'll block you on there.

This is second.

Between Lafayette and.

Second, between second and main, Lafayette and Oak. Oak. Oak, yeah, Lafayette and Oak.

So that would be the only alley.

Is there one there but go one block? Never mind. I don't think there is. Nope, that's the old U.S. Bank a lot.

Yeah, that alley, I mean, you can kind of see where it used to be, you know, with this little part sticking out. There's probably an alley there a long time ago.

Go, zoom back out, and then go north a block.

Just to the upper left there.

Yeah, true. I guess this is an alley. Good point.

That is, because...

Man, the thing is, there's worth.

Yeah, it is. That's an alley right there where he's got his. Yeah, this is an alley. Yeah. I drove a beer truck through there. You shouldn't. That's a hard climb. From Oak Street onto there to go to Droege's. Yep. I did it.

So that's what I'm saying. As long as we just have this exemption, I think we're good. It doesn't really matter if we have 16 or if we have two. It's just confirming that we don't have to worry about it. All right.

And just looking at this exact right here, okay, it's kind of an alley, but it's not dedicated. I don't even know.

There's the fence right there, so that wouldn't be code.

Right, but someone would go up to it. The fence is already there. Yeah, you're talking right there. That's what I'm saying, yeah. Now, to Matt's point, you're not taking a fire truck there. You're going around drogues to get to the tap room or whatever, but you don't want to put this in a code, and then someone can't put a building up to it because there's a 25-foot setback, a triangle setback, and then you're never going to sell it.

That's true.

So this is for new construction Right, correct development any new development

Something else that would come with this probably in the future would be we have a provision that requires a special use permit for zero lot lines at intersections. Staff would probably recommend removing that provision now that we have adequate sight distance at all of our intersections.

In other words, you would allow zero lot line

Correct. You know, because the site distance, I mean, that was really the concern within why we required, you know, a special use permit for those uses, you know. So now that we have adequate site distance downtown, I don't see a need for.

And what would make that so much better is when we did this a couple months ago, we allowed it for our public safety building, and then we're going to sit here and tell someone else that they can't.

Right. Yeah.

And I had a problem with that sitting here in a council where our public safety meeting building is right there on the sidewalk, zero lot, zero setback. Yeah. But you two blocks down can't. So now we have a set of for it. But now if we have a sight distance that exempts that problem or that issue to me, we have a set of rules on the book.

We're not, you know, saying being wishy washy. So I think I think it's good.

provision. So I think we have everything in place the way it is okay with the exception of exempting alleys. Can I exempt the alleys? Everybody agree with that? A lot of heads. Yeah. Okay. Any other questions, Aaron? Any commissioners have any comments? Any more questions? No. Okay. Is that what you need?

Are you making a motion to send to council for this?

Do we need a motion?

Yes. Okay, yes. Is there a motion to approve the change of the 10-foot lot line setback?

and eliminate the alleyways as part of that consideration through fourth street from north of fourth fourth including fourth north not north of fourth fourth and you can just say i i make a motion i make a motion to recommend the changes as suggested with the with the exception of the exempted alleys

Right.

What he said in the form of a motion.

I'll second that.

We approve staff's recommendation with the exception of the alleyways for the setback site distance corner. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Ayes have.

So I guess Gino cleaned it up, right? It's your time to shine. No idea.

No idea. You all talk at once.

Love that. I love it. Take a good visual, Mark, because it's going to be re-explained at council is my problem.

I will say that because we have a couple new commissioners. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Okay. I think that's mostly directed at me. I'll be better.

Have you ever had to sit in a deposition?

No, and I hope I don't have to.

Well, there you go. Erin, do you have something else under other business?

Yeah, just real quick. I was going to go through some Franklin County subdivisions. We got they're all pretty self-explanatory. So I'll just go through them real quick. Here is a internal lot subdivision just splitting a property into, you know, they require roadway access. No comments here. R1A compliant. So no comments there Here is Country Club farms plat 6. This is part of the greater sort of Country Club development they went back to Franklin County to kind of rearrange these lots here, excuse me, and so they just are gonna put some Duplexes and things the streets are already constructed. So no real concerns from from staff and Yeah, no real comments on this one.

Where is that? It's on Country Club.

Yeah, here I can.

It's off. Country Club.

Yeah. ELS Development and Country Club. Oh, yeah. And those colors on the top of the hill?

Yeah. Yeah.

OK. These right here? Yeah. Got it. Yeah. So no, no comments there. And the only other subdivision we got is Fisher Farms. They are subdividing a parcel here. This was, let's see, come on. This was going to be one lot. Okay, hello. This is going to be one lot. This was one lot in here where my cursor is. Maybe it'll work. And they're splitting this up into two, one parcel, one tract in order to sell a home that exists on that lot. And they needed a subdivision to do that. So no comments. The county reached out and said that the, this, let's see. This this home here which is within city limits, but the driveway is out of city limits will have to be readdressed it's currently addressed off highway. So that's something that the city will have to do and take care of when the applicants for this gets gets a new road name so. That being said that's that's all I've got for Franklin County subdivisions.

Okay, the other thing that you don't have on the agenda, I sent out an email to the commission a couple months ago about some UMSL fundamental of planning and zoning training that's being offered. The city has agreed to send each of us to one of those classes. I think that would be an excellent training opportunity if you can work it into your schedule to go down there from six to nine on one of those nights. In the email I sent you, I said I had picked two possible dates of November 4th and November 11th of topics that being chair, I would be interested in sitting through. And I just didn't know since I didn't get any reply from any others if anybody else.

Yeah, I definitely I thought it was great. I would totally do it. I'm usually I can't do Wednesdays and Thursdays are a little rough, but I'm open any other day. They're open. They're Wednesday nights. They're all Wednesday nights or. Well then I'll do it on a section training night.

So we would, and I would, yeah, we have fire department training on Wednesday night, so that's, but I would fargo that in order to go to Wednesday. Yeah, I'd do one too. It seems like they would be good opportunities to educate ourselves on some things. And what I thought was if everybody went to a different one, you could bring back what you learned and help educate the rest of us if there were some topics there that needed to be brought to us. So if you'd like- Is it a different class on a different night?

Yes. So let's pick out, okay.

um yes there are seven of them yeah there you go seven i think there's seven modules you could go through all seven and give you a full blown picture of everything planning and so on but i think if we break it out and have one person go to each of them that would get i think the city's best bang for their buck absolutely absolutely yeah I know I know some of these presenters and they're great so if you know I can resend that email or if you want to find that email and look at what I sent out a month ago I can and then reply back to me and then we can maybe see see where we're at do you know when the registration deadline is on those um I see here

Well, maybe it's on the other page.

Or if they have a size limit. I don't know.

Size limit, what do you mean?

Class limit.

Oh, I'm sure they do. Does it say? I don't think it says on here. Maybe I'm not reading it. Anywho, they start October 7, so before our next meeting.

Dibs on the implementing a comprehensive plan, module 7. I'm sorry? Module 7. That's what you want. November 18. Dibs.

I did respond to you. Did you?

I think what happened, I responded to Aaron, maybe. Maybe that was the issue.

I didn't have Aaron on my reply because I thought he would have to register us.

I didn't get that either, I don't think.

I'm sorry. I emailed you, but I didn't actually include my date.

That's what it was.

That's what it was.

would explain why he didn't get sorry.

City firewall definitely that could could could very well be.

I will I will check my spam to see it's in there see so.

John, I'll take a look at my calendar tomorrow when I get into the office. But yeah, I'd take one of these.

I have some flexibility, too. I'll take November 4. I don't remember which number that is. Module 5. That's number 5. Zoning. I think it dealt more with the administrative.

You guys are missing out. MML is today and tomorrow. And these are the kind of things that happen. And I should check and see what the agenda is there. There could be something that's a PowerPoint presentation and something similar. Sometimes there are. Missouri Municipal League, we attend as council members. It's at the Lake of the Ozarks this year. I wasn't able to go this year, but Pepsil and Bear are there. And Chad Pullman, our city administrator, and Sean are there this week. Some things are redundant. I've been to enough of them. But some of them are, you know, I look into those planning and zoning things in there. So maybe there's a possibility. This is great. You guys are doing this. And then there's some other opportunities maybe.

I mean, since I've been on the commission, we've never had this opportunity before. So I think if the city is willing to help to pay the registration fee, I'll drive down and go, we'll do it. Right.

I know you mentioned new members. I just want to say, Bailey, Matt, and the rest, I mean, thank you for doing it. Bailey, I did try to reach out to you when I had your... your bio that came to us to approve. And I tried to reach out. It didn't work then, so I didn't get anything back from you then. But regardless, just again, thank you guys for the time and for John to bring this up and you guys willing to go and do an additional training. That means a lot. And I tell this to other boards, but... Your recommendation from here does weigh huge at council. It does make a difference. There's no doubt about that. I mean, so don't take it lightly. Some other boards, commissions, you know, I sit on it. I try to make every one I possibly can. And it does make a difference. So if you guys are self-educating, that means even more. So thank you.

Thank you.

I'm assuming Aaron you need to register us, right? Yeah It's true. Yes, it's coming out of your budget. No, it is. Yeah Okay.

All right. That's all I have so I

Motion to adjourn. Second that. Motion made and seconded to adjourn. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. You're adjourned at 8.44.

Thank you.