Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Call the meeting to order. Call the roll call, please.

David Gray, absent. Jeremy Tooley, here. Larry Mullen, here. Jim Faulk, here. John Pierce, here. Luis Santiago, absent. Donald Spillman, here.

We do have a quorum. I think you all received copies of the minutes of the June 24th meeting. Any corrections or changes?

I'll make the motion to approve as written.

I'll second that.

Any more moves that we approve the minutes as presented? I'll second. There's a second. John Pierce seconds. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? They are approved. At this time, anybody that's going to speak on any case before the... board this evening. We need to swear you in. Would you please stand and take an oath? Clay, I think that's you.

Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm? I've heard the testimony you're about to give before the support of the oath. Is there anything else you've got? Thank you. You may be seated.

Thank you. You might as well come on up. The first case is case SE-13-26. Charles C. Williams III is requesting a special exception for the property at 9 Reflection Drive. The request includes construction of a 1,892-square-foot detached garage with a 17-foot sidewall and a 32-foot peak height. The property is approximately 5.5 acres, zoned R3. Do you want to tell us exactly what you want to do?

Yeah, so it's just a three-car detached garage that has a small kitchenette type of thing. room above the kitchen area. So it's between my house and the neighbor's house to the east.

Okay. If there are no questions...

Or no, we could, but it wasn't oversized. Yeah, no.

That's right. We don't have to put it on here. Sorry about that.

What about the pool house?

He's going to build a separate pool house. It has nothing to do with it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, everything matches there. Yeah. Sorry about that. There's a lot going on there.

With the case before the board, a vote for approval indicates that you have found that the information presented has shown approval of this request for conditional, not conditional use, special exception will not be injurious to the public health safety morals or general welfare of the area, does not substantially adversely affect the use or value of adjacent property. And approval does not substantially interfere with the city's adopted comprehensive plan. A vote to deny indicates that you feel that approval of the request would have a substantial negative effect in regard to the criteria considered. Teresa, call the roll, please.

David Gray, absent. Jeremy Tooley?

Yes.

Larry Mullen?

Yes.

Jim Boff?

Yes.

John Pierce?

Yes.

Luis Santiago, absent. Donald Spelling?

Yes. Got it? All right. Have at it.

If you want me to close it this morning, that's fine as well. I'll come by every morning.

Okay. All right.

Thank you. Other business you found on your... Yeah. Table the completed rules procedures that we've been looking at for the last couple of three months. It's pretty much what we talked about with the changes. One of the things I get asked about six, seven years ago when we were in the middle of the pandemic, there's an area in here that says we've got to hear things within 60 days. And we went like four months, didn't meet, just simply because we couldn't meet. We were shut down. But then there's another place in here that says if we don't clear things within 70 days, then we just rescind notices and everything. So I think that covers that. Hopefully we'll never be in that position again.

You know, none of this stuff, very little of it is written in stone. So it just gets you started. And one of the things that this document does require is that when someone makes an application, they're provided with a written copy of this so they know what the what their rules are and their standards and so forth. So we check that off the box as far as being in compliance with the statute. So, again, not written in stone. It's a starting point. I feel like we've got a good starting point here.

And if we find that something rubs the wheel, we The board does.

The board does, yeah.

I didn't know if you would put it in there. It's just the board has to approve. That's why we have signatures for everybody that's here. Any amendments, we'll do that also.

We have set rules for the board before by vote. by motion and vote, it was just never codified like this, which this is a whole lot better because what we were doing, we were depending on memory. This is the way we've done it. This is the vote we had 15 years ago.

So do we make a motion to approve these? I'll make a motion to approve.

Do we need a motion to approve, or do you want to take time to read over it? I think we can go over it.

I just changed a little bit each time, and, you know, each time we do a little bit of change, a little bit of change. I think I pretty well got all the faces covered this time around. And, again, if something pops up in there, we can always adjust it. Absolutely. I looked at these probably five different ones and pulled the one that I thought was, I didn't want, I mean, some are really long and some are really short. I tried to find a middle ground on this stuff and kind of based on my experience on the county board, you know, using the different, so I, you know, brought that to play too. So I feel pretty good about this set. It's not perfect, I'm sure, but it covers most of our bases.

The difference between the county board and this board is the county board's an advisory board. Everything, even if they act and vote, it can go to the county commissioners. We make the decisions. So, if you will, do we have a motion to approve? I'd make a motion to approve. Don Pierce moves to approve. I'll second. Second. Mr. Falk?

Second, Mr. Falk?

Yeah. Jim? Jim seconded it. Actually, they had a tie on the second.

I thought I heard Larry go back here.

I did ask Jeff too at the end of the meetings we've often asked John what's up next week and we've been sort of leery about that but if there is a case that is if there's a case that has been filed you can tell us what it is and say there's a special exception for 709 South Meridian.

And that's it. We don't go into detail.

We don't go into it. We don't discuss it. We just get information that that's a place that we can go and investigate.

Gotcha.

Is that... Yeah, yeah. Again, where do you draw the line on some of this stuff? I mean, let's look at what the rule said. There's ex parte communication. Each member is encouraged to exercise due care in responding to reporting in an external context related to matters pending or yet to be presented to the board. So once I read that language, then I pause a little bit. I mean, the best course of action is not to say anything about any cases because... Not until it's put in front of you. It's like a judge. You can't talk to a judge before the case is heard. It's got to be done in that hearing, once you get the stuff in front of you.

But then, the way that reads, and you explained it, we can't go down to the office and ask about filed cases so we can write an investigator.

Yeah. It's not another board member. No. That's the difference. Okay. Yeah, because you're just going down and you're going to get a copy of the case. Once it's been filed, you can go see it. You can't go discussing it with the other members. That's the difference.

Okay. Okay. So essentially it's us to you individually.

So essentially we ask, do we have anything on the docket for next week, and you go yes or no?

I don't know.

Yeah. Okay. I don't know yet.

I don't know yet. I don't know yet.

I don't know yet. I don't know yet.

I don't know yet.

But if I ask, are the cases filed for next month, he can say yes or no. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That's a yes.

So then he can, at that point, then he can say, yes, this is the case, and for us to be able to go look at it or, you know.

Yeah, then we can go down.

We know we can go down to the office and pick something up. Yeah, you can go. That communication has to be. with them. Because you can investigate the case beforehand, you know, because you're going to get notice of that. Absolutely. And, of course, you have the right to file something report, you know, with the board at least five days prior to the meeting. I don't know if you're ever been doing that or not, but that's

The ladies in the office have been real good about getting information to us in a very timely manner. But we have had instances where we've got information two days, three days before the meeting. So... It's nice to know that there's something that we need to go down and look at just to be sure.

Yeah, I did some research on that, and the courts have found, specifically in my case, that's overreaching a little bit. It's too restrictive. But, number one, to come to speak, they're under our oath.

You know, a felony is a perjury when it's binding upon that person. But as Don said, the board can look at that and throw it in the trash. I mean, this board, like a judge, decides if that's good evidence or not. So you just take it as it comes, case by case basis. something they shouldn't be doing.

Several years ago, we had a case where it was very controversial and people came with a petition. We had no idea who signed the petition. Some of the people who signed it were from Montgomery. They were from Jasper. They were from Wheatland. I'm sorry, but I don't care about people from Jasper and Wheatland. Anyway, any other discussion? All in favor of adopting this rules and procedure for the Washington City Board of Zoning Appeals? I guess we ought to do a real cold vote. Yes, it's everybody's name listed individually on the rules. Teresa?

David Gray, absent. Jeremy Tooley.

Yes.

Larry Mullen.

Yes.

Jim Falk.

Yes.

John Pierce.

Yes.

Luis Santiago, absent.

Donald Spillman. Do you have an extra copy of that, the back page of this? I was going to use this, and I realized that there's two.

So do we all need to sign that? Yes, we do. Do you want to sign the same one or sign the one we got in our packet? You want to sign the one? MR.

Yeah, yeah.

That brings us to finding a fact.

Did everybody have a copy of the finding of fact in your packet? It was in mine. And basically it's basically what I read. The approval will not be injurious to the public health safety morals and general welfare of the community. The proposed 1892 square foot detached garage with height of 18 feet, 10 foot sidewall and above the 10 foot sidewall limit will not harm the public welfare structure. It will be built in compliance with all Indiana building codes and will not obstruct traffic sight lines. The used value of the area adjacent to the property included in the special exception, will not be affected in a substantially adverse manner, and the approval does not interfere substantially with the city's adopted comprehensive plan. And there were no restrictions or requirements imposed. Teresa, you're on again.

David Gray, absent. Jeremy Tooley?

Yes.

Larry Mullen?

Yes.

Jim Poth?

Yes.

John Pierce?

Yes.

Luis Santiago, absent. Donald Spillman?

Yes. Is there anything else? Do we have anything pending that we know of?

602 and a half.

We will have one pending, yes. Okay. So plan on a meeting next month. Yeah. Okay. If there's nothing else. One thing. Okay.

We were talking about that when I was city attorney back under Mayor Haag and Chris Whitman and I was building commission. I think we were working on that, but it kind of just never really worked. I mean, just curious if that was ever discussed.

We had been in the last year and a half. The council wanted to do that, and they allowed us to. We did $5,000 worth of work with it. The pre-revaluability. Midwestern. Midwestern, yeah. And that got so far. But as far as getting with the GIS that we have and those people and really getting in there and having them change, we haven't changed.

So there is, you guys, obviously you have a map in your office. We do. But it's like this.

Yeah, it's actually.

Yeah, and that's.

That's out of date, isn't it? That's 20 years out of date.

It shows nothing since then.

Yeah. Obviously we would have a record of any changes. Obviously the city limits has expanded.

But people will call it up on the computer looking if they want to come to town and build something. they can't tell where it is because the map on the computer doesn't even show the annexed areas that was annexed eight years ago. Yeah. And there were some significant zoning changes made at that point.

They can look on the map and it will tell you what zoning that piece of parcel is because you go to GIS and you put identify area And when you click on it, it will tell you how it is sold.

What if it's outside the city limits?

If it's in the two-mile jurisdiction, it'll say S1 on it or A1.

But that two-mile jurisdiction...

I don't know about those maps.

It's not correct.

Yeah, that I don't know.

Some of it is not... When they did the two-mile jurisdiction under Mayor Wellman, instead of just making a two-mile circle, they actually went to identifiable boundaries. So it's two miles in some places. It may be a mile and a half in another. They didn't... If we had gone to the two-mile limit to the east, we would have been in the middle of the golf course. And our... jurisdiction would have overlapped Montgomery.

Yeah, that was the thing, because Montgomery put its zoning in, so then you've got that problem. That's why they did that. You're right.

Yeah, the new golf course addition is actually part of the city of Montgomery. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, theirs is not, theirs is kind of wonky too.

Yeah. So it would be intensely beneficial. But is that something that you need to do, or is that something that needs the city council to do?

Yeah, I mean, I'll be happy to bring it up because, you know, it's a disadvantage to me not to be able to just pull something up and I've got to go down to your office and so forth. And, again, I have a little bit of a history with it, too.

I mean, I know the council has mentioned, you know, hey, we need to update zoning maps. Yeah.

So how long does that take? Like you guys were talking about Chris. That's forever ago.

I think this map was actually done by Chris's son.

Jeremy Wiminar did that one.

So how long does it take, Jeff? I don't know. The other thing is, too, now that we've got this data center moratorium in place, David Dahl is going to spearhead the movement to update the comprehensive plan, which that is the perfect timing to do all this.

That's when this one came in, when they did the last comprehensive plan.

So that needs to be brought to the forefront, in my opinion. It may be done anyway, but something to say is going to come up with some money. Those things aren't cheap.

I've heard some numbers.

That's a $60,000 take.

I mean, we would have the records of changes of zonings and, you know, obviously on our GIS we would have the updated boundary lines.

Better done.

Which, if we would hire a firm to do that, they would have that as well.

You know, a map here. Matter of fact, they gave each one of the BZA members a copy of that map.

I got one in my office.

Yeah, I do too. I got one of them.

I'm curious how something of that magnitude, how long does it take?

If I was guessing, I heard the last time they did just the comprehensive, it was six months?

At least six months.

I know that Jeremy was starting to work on a new one when Chris died. Yes. And then it all fell apart and administration changed. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the estimate for that comprehensive plan that we've been kicking around in the council meetings is like six months to a year probably, which is one reason they went out two years to get plenty of time to get everything in consideration and in place. It's not an easy task, but we've got a lot of new things to add into it. But, yeah, maybe I'll talk to the mayor about that. You know, when we're doing a comprehensive plan, now would be a good time to get the map.

If anything, get it on the computer.

Yeah, somewhere.

So do you re-roll the two-mile jurisdiction then? Like Don was mentioning, is that at the time you do the two-mile jurisdiction or you leave it the same?

That's an option. Because the city has the option... of setting a actual two-mile limit outside two miles from the city limit line, which is basically a two-mile radius. So you have all sorts of bubbles depending on how the city limits set, and Washington's sort of an elongated city, so it's not like a square with two miles. So they went to this type of, well, they changed this and went to a system where they were identifiable Barriers. Rows that go to such and such a road. Maybe two miles, maybe a mile and a half. But the city would exercise jurisdiction in that designated two-mile limit. But every time the city would annex a property, that two-mile limit,

I know when you go south or go out to Southview, some of those going out Troy Road, they're in-city, and all of a sudden one isn't, but another one's in-city, so it goes like this, going around Troy Road.

And a lot of that's because it was an identifiable border, a road, or... Instead of having a stake out in the middle of somebody's cornfield. But that up there is basically based on actual two-mile radius. So that is not correct as far as the two-mile. Because the two-mile limit is expanded because the city limits is now out to 300 east. So two miles actually goes to 500, which is the golf course. So when's Jeff going to have time to do this?

That's why we have other professionals in the field that take care of it.

Actually, they'll do a lot of work with the county mapping.

So does all the zoning change in different areas when they do it, or is that up to the city cap?

The comprehensive plan, that's one of the things they address. If need for zoning changes and that type of thing.

And the last time they did it, there were some pretty substantial changes in zoning in some areas. Because there were some areas that had been agricultural that were now residential or business. And you know, But that's a council decision.

And update the schedule of uses, too, i.e. data centers, that type of thing. They need to be added in so there's no question of what we're dealing with.

This whole book gets reprinted.

The only thing I haven't changed is the industrial corridor along the railroad tracks.

Yeah, I mean, there's no need for that railroad corridor anymore.

Yeah, yeah. Let's see a full train come by one day.

Which has created some problems in some residential areas where it bumps up against a 50-foot wide industrial area.

Anyway, that's it.

If there's nothing else, we'll adjourn. Thank you all.