Common Council - Special Meeting

will come to order. The city clerk will call the roll. Aiello, Burmaster, Betar, Carcone, Urban, Betrice, Wazuski, Colasimo Testa, Lamattico, Drutsi, all present. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance followed by a moment of silence for the deceased members of the common council. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I'd like to thank the people for coming in the crowd here. The agenda for this special meeting is the agenda will be to discuss uh proposed ordinance number nine in a transfer dated 4 15 2026. I'd like to make a motion to discharge. Oppose. I'm opposed. And if I may, I don't want to jump the line, but I think there were just questions that we seem to have disagreements on the council what this is for, and I just like to keep it in committee. So, that's where I will be doing it. I would like to make a motion um I talked to the controller's office. The controller's office says we have to vote on this for the bonding agency because initially they got the five five million, and we're bringing it down to two million. So, we have to vote on it for that reason. That's not the case. Can I I will say that you got to Uh I'd like to bring this out to a vote. Can I get a second? [clears throat] So, you're Wait, time out. So, you're voting on a transfer into an account? I'd like to bring this out to a vote first. Guys, guys, guys, guys. I need it to I need an ex- I need an explanation. First of all, I had the motion on the floor. Is the motion to discharge on the table? Yes. There's a motion to discharge on the

table. So, we go to a vote. So, let's go to a vote.

Okay. So, now I'd like to qualify my vote. Two things. The council, and this is a memo that I actually got from 2023 from They had to do with the actual ARPA funding. Um first second class cities law that the council doesn't transfer anything that's not in the actual budget. Um I mean, that's a memo that this council agreed on even when it had to do with ARPA funding um way back when. The council approves the bond ordinance, which they did. The comptroller has the authority to take that bond ordinance to whatever they want to, whether it's up to that two million, a million, 500,000, and then they move from there. The council does not have the authority to transfer accounts into a fund that's not in the actual budget. And we just approved our budget, and the two million dollars for paving was not in there. Um that's why there this there's no reason, and if you guys choose to bring it out, I'll be voting no. So, I mean, it's that simple. I don't know. They can do what they want. Anyone else? Yes. Councilman Betrice. So, um when this was explained to me, I called the clerk's office, and I had him do some investigation. I have last year's bond ordinance, and um you can go through every year since the paving program started. It's never came to us. It doesn't need to come to us. The budget director, and Katie, I believe was there, and you were there. The budget director told all of you today at ENA, okay? That the only reason this came to the council was because it was a mistake. He wrote transfer on it. So, it shouldn't be here. So, two wrongs do not make a right. So, um it's it's a it's a you know, I'd rather, and I know we can't, I'd rather approve the uh the piece that came from ENA today because that helps us more. This absolutely means nothing. We have the money. It's already there. Mr. President, you were at ENA today. Am I correct?

[clears throat] Am I correct? Katie, what did you tell me before? Am I correct? We don't have to vote on this. It doesn't mean anything. You know, the the mayor as far as it pertains to said we had to vote on it. Yeah, because and it wasn't about this. It's because the other one this is a bond. They're just trying to represent a bond council that we're only using the 2 million, not the full 5 million. Maybe we want to discuss with the controller different way to go about showing that then if we didn't want to pass this. That's why I proposed keeping it in committee. Uh but I also don't see the harm of just passing it anyway though because we all agreed It It really doesn't mean and you're correct on that but two wrongs don't make a right.

But we don't [clears throat] transfer How are you transferring money in account that you don't even approve? The the great thing about it you can vote no, you can vote yes. But but point point of order Mr. President. For the record for the record This is for the dispense though. Was this account inside our actual budget for $2 million? Did we approve $2 million in paving? Did we vote Did we approve $2 million in paving inside our budget? We voted for the bond. Wait, but we didn't approve it in our budget. So you can't transfer money into the account that you don't have authority to transfer money into. people are hyper fixating on that. I agree on that point. It's not It's not

controller was just looking for a mechanism to work with bond council to show we are only using 2 million and not the full five because that's what we want to start with. Okay, so I agree if but that's why I was just going to put it back in the committee if we wanted to hear more from the controller on the proof on that. I'd rather see it in committee than vote yes for something that's wrong. We know it's wrong. Do you guys want to put it in committee? No. No? I'll vote on that. Okay.

I don't think we have the votes. There's a motion. There's a motion on the floor to discharge so Go ahead and do your So no means we keep it. Yes means it's dispensed. [music] Well, we got You raised this. Wait, no means Say that again. So because she's she wants to dispense and get rid of it. So if you want that then you vote yes with her or I don't know how she's voting but

want to discharge it you vote yes. If you don't you vote no. So you want to vote yes. Thanks, Rocco. I I I'm going to vote yes just because it seems like It's wrong. Okay. I'm not going to vote for something I don't know the right to vote for. It's wrong. They're telling you. You can't transfer if it's not your budget. Go ahead. You vote. Six nays. So what do we Goes in committee. That's better than passing it. Yeah, someone have a motion? Anyone opposed? No, I got one thing I want to request to the council while we're here. I want to I want to speak on a couple items. So we have another piece if anybody's listening that I am for passing and I think everybody would but

It's not on the agenda. I'm I know understand. I'm telling you for people that are listening they're going to get upset that it's not passed. We can't pass this because it's not part of the agenda. My second part is I would like I wouldn't care if we had a special meeting or a committee meeting. I'd like to have a meeting to have the controller here, the budget director here, different uh all the mayor's office. I want to know what's going on with this bill process. Okay, I don't want to pick the news up and hear that the firemen we couldn't order a tire. There's vendors out there uh Mr. Potter is out there. He's been waiting for months to get paid. There's many vendors and it's to me it's a total disgrace and I want to know why this is happening and I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong. If anybody's doing anything you know, I I'm sure they're not doing it purposely but we need to get on this right page to straighten this out so this doesn't happen again. So can we call a meeting um to discuss these items? Let's vote to commit uh There's a motion on the floor to commit. So let's vote on that question. Judge We voted that to commit. Can you [clears throat] Judge discharge. So now it's back on the table. Judge Giamona I just I I just have one question for Judge Giamona. Judge Jack, I have the floor. Let's We're going to vote first then we can have our questions.

are we voting to put it in committee? Judge That's what I'm voting right now is to put it in committee. Is I would like him to speak. Yeah, Judge. Does the council transfer funds that they don't have the authority to transfer because it wasn't approved in their budget? Can the council transfer funds that they didn't approve inside their budget? That's where I see it. Can the council transfer funds that the council didn't approve to be in the budget? The council can transfer uh funds in the budget. The council can increase funds in the budget. The council can decrease uh funds in the I'm sorry. The council The common council has the power to increase, decrease anything in the budget. It does not have the power to have a line uh that they created. That's the That's an opinion I gave to uh uh the councilwoman when she asked. Uh as far as the uh question of this budget this budget is not something you can uh uh add or subtract to except uh with the budget transfers or bond ordinances uh because the budget once uh the budget is passed and the dates for the uh action the veto of any, the action on the veto, that's the end and whatever is in there is what the taxpayers paying on. So you can't change that. Uh now as to the uh error I have looked at the budget

and the veto and the I have the copies here that the budget the the account numbers don't match. Uh so that I think there's a typographical error and there's a an item here that has no uh uh number at the beginning of it. So somebody made an error and about the what the intent of the council was. The there was no question that the council if they wanted to put $500,000 say into paving more than was there they had the power to do that. Uh I think that's what we're trying to do. Yeah. Now I was sat here last week with uh Andrew

[clears throat]

and we looked through some things. We didn't consult the controller. I think that was her question. No, we did not consult the controller at that time. We uh wanted to see what happened. Well, there's an error. I have it right here. I have the documents here. The numbers don't match. So I think there was a a typographical error in the budget but that's academic now. Now you're in a situation. If you think that something should have been done differently in the budget you can't change the budget anymore. Uh ENA can give you uh legislation to transfer money and you can approve it uh and you can do it that way. Or the administration uh if they think the common council did something wrong could have go to Supreme Court and ask for a an opinion. I think that the if they did that I would have to say that uh on the behalf of the common council if they asked me I would just submit these two documents and say there's a typographical error. Okay. But that's the best I can do on this. I can say as I I agree with the councilwoman that the manner in which this is printed on the budget [laughter] is not the proper manner. Uh So we're going to vote uh But as it your power to get more money to paving there's no question about that. Right. So that's and that's what he said. He's actually talking about the street maintenance that you guys went from $0 to $500,000.

first to commit.

So just for clarification he's talking about two different things. One was the street maintenance one for street paving. You added that line to the budget cuz it didn't exist in the budget before. So if you look at it goes from zero to $500,000. What they're saying is that that item was never in the budget therefore you didn't have the authority to add that to it. As far as this paving ordinance goes these H4141657100 to the H55197 those aren't in our budget those are not in our budget either. And again if you go back to second class city's law and you look at section 76 when any moneys or revenues are received by an officer board or department of the city from any source other than municipal tax which are not or otherwise appropriated such money and revenues may be used or applied toward in addition to the funds um in such a manner of the judgment of the board and assessment and appro- apportionment. So this is something very similar when they gave us the transfers for the ARPA funds because the council did not approve them in the budget you don't have the authority to do that. So that's that that needed to be clarified. So I appreciate that. Thank you, Judge. Yeah, I just want to allow her to speak on that. We'll make it quick. Uh the paving line that we did for street maintenance, it is an account line that does exist. Because it's just because it's not in the PDF packet that we had on that budget, doesn't mean it's not part of our budget. It's an A account. It's been used several years in a row. No, it has not.

was correct. And I think we have a motion to When was the last time it was used? 2012. 2012. So, it has been our budget. Therefore, you did not have the authority to add that line into the budget. call votes, please. It's account line Vote twice. Be honest one day in your life. Motion to commit. You're talking about a PDF. And I need to commit. You are and you're spending it. It's an account line that exists. You're just not to commit propose? Yeah. I would vote on it. It's literally not a You can put it in committee.

Yes. Put it in committee. We're going to vote on that to put in committee. Anyone oppose? No. Uh and no, and I would just like to speak on this. People are asking why certain account lines aren't like certain vendors aren't paid. This is because the account lines are overdrawn. This money will be transferred into it. Once that's done, people can be paid. So, we will put in committee because it was introduced today.

No. Committed. Motion to adjourn? Second. Wait a second. What about my request? Well, we talked about setting a meeting up. Are we Do you guys want to do that or you don't really care about it? No, I concur with Joe. I think we should have a meeting. Yeah, I think we just have to meet with We got to talk to the people involved in Right. I want to know why this is happening. You know what I mean? And now we will

I mean, we go two weeks we Yeah. Joe, we go two weeks We don't have nothing this week nothing next week. So, I mean, if we did it Yeah. I mean, the yeah, the but we have next week we already have the 5:30. We have a council, you know what I mean? Or what? No, next week we don't have nothing. No, that's why I'm saying maybe we can do it next week. Joe, maybe Wednesday next week you can do. And I think that's very important we do. We really do. [laughter]

It's Tuesday, April 21st right around 6:25 p.m. This is a meeting of the Utica Common Council Committee of the Whole. This is a public safety meeting. We have our Chief of Police, Deputy Chief of Police here. Thank you both for coming. Uh Councilwoman Testa requested this meeting, uh but we'll just first go through brief introductions, anything you want to discuss, and then maybe we could go from there. Great. Thank you. So, last Common Council meeting we spoke about some of the staffing challenges we're going to have for this upcoming summer. As we know, as the summer comes up, different problems have come up. Um we tend to be a lot more busy. Uh and more importantly, we have all these special large events that we have to cover as well. Um so, the way my staffing looks now is I I'm my complement said it was 165. But, um in as far as working officers, I actually down to 142. I have eight vacancies. I have one person leaving for the state police in June. I have uh one person on military long-term military deployment. I have eight long-term um 207-C injury officers that I probably won't see at least for the summer. And um I have another five officers that have uh um told me they intend on retiring in June. So, that brings me down 23 less officers that I have. Um so, when I look at staffing, we've been working on this for years to see what we can do to try to remedy this. So, internally what we've done is we used to give one civil service test a year. Uh we now have uh give two civil service tests a year. We used to give one in in May, we give another one in October. On top of it, we used to give one academy class a year. We're now hosting two academy classes just to um you know, be able to try to fill our complement. What we're finding is that the pool of candidates is just not there. Um whatever the lack of interest is in law enforcement, it's uh isn't just

locally, it's nationally and it's statewide, and including cities in comparable sizes as us as well. Um So, you know, what we've done is we tried to embrace some of the best practices that are out there. About 3 years ago, 3 4 years ago, I attended a national recruiting seminar with Stephanie Hyland. Stephanie Hyland at the time was a recruiting specialist um that was hired by the city of Utica to help us. And she did a great job. You know, when we this is some of the best practices that are out there. And a lot of them we're already doing ourselves. Um One of the things we made very easy for any uh person interested in becoming a police officer, we want to make it easy for them to sign up to take the police exam. So, typically when you in the past you wanted to sign up to you know, take the police exam, you would um have to go to city hall, pick up the application, go home, fill it out, and bring it back to city hall, and there was a fee, usually about $25 for city residents and $50 for non-city residents. What we did was we tried to mirror our recruiting efforts around this current generation. So, we had a interactive website where they can actually sign up online, access the the announcement, the application fill it out online, and we even um didn't set any fee. We made the test free for everybody to take. Um so, it seemed like we're getting a little bit more candidates to to um sign up for the test. But, um what we found is that we could like for example, we had 125 people sign up for our last test. Only half of them showed up to actually take the test. And like I said, when we made some phone calls to find out why, some people were just trying to satisfy their unemployment um requirements. They said they were applying for a job. So, then you started with half of that. And then when it comes time the next step is usually the uh physical agility test. So, now you get about half those candidates don't show up because they're not they're not physically fit to take the exam. So, in the past we've

always held and we continue to hold these um training sessions for people interested in um in want wanting to pass our examination, our physical fitness examination. And we would only get a very minimal turnout, maybe three to five people at best. Um despite our best efforts, we even put um online instructional videos on Facebook to show them how to do proper push-ups, sit-ups, what the required time is to run for the mile and a half. Um but again, it didn't change anything. Um So, those are the things that we've done internally. Um Then there's some things contractually that need to be happening as well, I think to help us with recruiting. Um as we know right now, this uh uh our PBA president doesn't have doesn't have the best relationship with the mayor right now. Um I did meet with the mayor today. To his credit, when I brought up the staffing shortages and wanted to find out what the status of this upcoming contract is, he's not going to hold it against the other 164 officers. He's still going to want to work with the um with the union to get a a contract done. Uh but contractually, some of the things that need to happen is that our starting salary is way low. You know, I I always consider our police department the premier police department because we are the largest, we're probably the best trained in this area, and we have the most experience based on a variety of different calls that we handle. And I can tell you firsthand there's a lot of local agencies that depend on the Utica Police Department, especially when they have a major event or a critical incident. So, if you if you look at the pay compared to those agencies, you know, our starting salary is very low. It's And just to give you some examples of others, um New Hartford's just shy of 73,000 to start. And that county is just shy of 65,000. Um Yorkville PD, small agency, almost 65,000.

And if you wanted to be a Mohawk Valley police uh safe public safety officer who's a peace officer, they're making 65,000 to start. So, you know, obviously we need to increase that starting salary cuz when we do talk to some of the candidates that sign up for our test and also um take we we call it cross they cross-reference their um taking several tests including ours. And when we find out they don't follow through with our background, they're saying they're they're taking jobs with the higher starting salary. Um So, that needs to be done. Another way we used to fill our complement in the past is lateral transfers. So, because you know, we are well trained, there's big agency, a lot of chance for uh advancement in our agency, we used to be very attractive for lateral transfers. But because of our starting salary being so low, um they would take it have to take a substantial cut in pay to even come here. And another um hiccup um that that has hurt us in the past was the residency law. But I got to give this Common Council credit. Um on two separate occasions, you got you guys have stepped up to the plate. You um relaxed the the residency requirement from never to 5 years. And what you also did was for lateral transfers, you waived the res- residency requirement for that as well. Um I think that if you look at some of the other cities have done, cuz we are getting candidates saying that, you know, they they won't take our our job because the residency requirement. I can give you an example. Um the city of Syracuse, Mayor Sharon Owens, she was a staunch supporter of her her campaign about residency. When she came into office, they found out, you know, how uh short-handed the the Syracuse Police Department was and their staffing and recruiting challenges, she elected to suspend the residency requirement so they could attract more candidates. Um I know I know it's always maybe not the

best uh political situation for um elected officials to hear, but I can tell you this much, when we um initially asked to Council consider um reducing the residency from never to 5 years, myself, Mike Curly, and uh one other member of the department, we went to all the uh neighborhood association meetings. We explained the problems we had with recruiting. There were questions asked, but we didn't get any strong opposition at that time to reducing the residency. And as a result, I think it led to, you know, the Common Council passing that um in our favor. Um And I think that internally, there could be more things that can be done um on our end. I mean, what I would like to see is a dedicated budget line. Uh we don't have a dedicated budget line in our in our in our budget. Um it's always putting whatever money we have available through other um budget lines that maybe you um our the estimates fell short that year, or using some drug seizure money. Um but that's that's basically um how we've been uh you know, uh using our money to advertise, um go out to the schools, uh go out to the gyms. Um so, we are utilizing a lot of best practices. You know, it was interesting when I went to the recruiting seminar, you know, they say that you have to recruit uh based on this current generation. And I'm an old-timer. So, I I got to make sure I change my way as well. Um I'm a staunch believer of wearing my hat. I'm a staunch believer of being clean-shaven. But we see changes right now. I mean, um we still have a no shave uh shaving policy. They have to shave, but officers get around it. They're getting excuses or religious exemptions and not shaving. So, I guess that's something we I may have to consider cuz some people that's

important to them uh in the future, but um we are doing everything I think internally we can as a department um to increase the amount of police officers we have. And I can just tell you this much, every year seems like we're taking on more and more work um between the unfunded state mandates we're getting from the state. And on top of it, some of the these uh situations that happen in the city, I never thought a year and a half ago we'd be taking out a dog kennel. I mean And then now, you know, we're seeing problems in the parks and I I I think that's going to end up having to be a regular detail uh for the police when we can put officers out there. Um unfortunately, it's going to involve some overtime cuz I don't have the staffing right now to do that. Um But again, I mean um I can run a a police department with any compliment you give me. But you're going to give the the level of services that that compliment allows me to do. Uh so um And again, I will my first res- my first responsibility when I look at the overall state of the department is that our first responsibility is to make sure that if someone calls the police, they're going to get a police officer in a relatively quick time response time. So, that's my main goal. When I look at specialized units uh they exist to basically support the uniform patrol division. Now, what I have to look at come June when I get those five retirements, I probably have to do without my traffic unit. It's only a two-man unit right now. I have one of those two officers that are um that are going to retire in June. The other one works um half day cuz he's a a PBA um representative. I have to put him back in the squads. We'll still do um traffic assessments and whatnot. It's just that I I may have to rely on other officers to do um that that work as well. We looked at, you know, possibly looking at at least eliminating one of our mental health

teams. We have two crisis response teams. I wouldn't want to touch that based on the fact that we had well over 1,400 calls for mental health crises. And they do also do a great job when uh doing community outreach with the homeless as well. So, I didn't want to touch them. We just got a enhanced domestic violence grant called the strive grant. And the purpose of that is to work with the district attorney's office and the YWCA to give enhanced um prosecutions and enhanced enforcement and services to our domestic violence victims. I don't want to eliminate that that uh unit as well and I won't touch that. But I'm I'm kind of at a loss. So, now that when we start losing officers, probably the one area in the department's specialized units that's going to be affected is my criminal investigation division. Cuz now, I won't be able to um to uh replace a lot of those investigators until I can um um until I can, you know, at least uh get come close to my filling my uh my vacancies and my in the active compliment But uh some of the challenges I got right now, I've got seven people that we've gave conditional offers of employment to. Um We took a chance on three of those seven uh cuz about a year ago they failed their psych examination. And it's for immaturity, bad bad behavior. There's no guarantee that they're not going to be able to pass it again. And then there's the other four who will be taking uh their medical testing and psychological testing and there's no guarantee that any of them will pass. So, you know, that typically we see about 30 to 40% failure rate in the psychological examination. And it has nothing to do with their men- their mental health issues. It really has to do with they don't have current values and traits and habits that are conducive to being a responsible adult or police officer. And that's what we see quite a bit. And they to be fair, we used to public safety psychiatry out

of uh Albany and they do a great job. I mean, if I look back at some of those psychological reports they also identify areas where the officer may be weak in and improve on or areas he may um have trouble with and they tend to be spot on. But that's uh basically uh um wrapping up my my discussion of recruitment and some of the challenges we face, but I will assure you this, we will do our best to make sure that a citizen calls the police, they're going to get a police officer. If you bring forth various different projects, things you want us to work on we will get to them. Uh we will definitely, you know, make sure it gets done. It's just that it might be some timely delays. Well, thank you, Chief. And you know, I I know I speak for the entire council, genuinely thank you for everything you guys do every day. I mean you know, since you've been in your position, how many times have I reached out already to to call you DC? So, um we we certainly appreciate it. And I understand a lot of this is contractual, but the side from the sounds of it that the council has a say in is the residency aspect. So, with that, I think we can open it up to see if anyone has any questions, comments, take discussion further. Looks like the judge over here. Now, Chief because of the echo here, sometimes I don't catch everything uh what you're saying. Uh is the uh heart of your uh talk tonight that you want to make some changes to residency Yes, sir. Well, you know, the residency law is a part of the charter. And as you know this council did that 5-year uh change that said policemen have to live here 5 years if they're uh first employed. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. At the time I was a little bit hesitant about that

because uh I uh didn't make much of it because of reciprocity. Where the fire department, unlike the police department uh they practically have no residency law because of a state legislature. Uh they changed it to Oneida County and then they did it to contiguous county. So, you could actually live in the suburb of Syracuse and be part of Madison County and be a fireman. Okay. Well, that state legislature did that. Uh if you want the Common Council to do away with the residency requirement for the police department because the that law has been part of the charter for as long as I can ever remember. Maybe 30 years old. Uh it's been all the time you've been there, that's for sure. Oh, yeah? And uh yeah. And I think you have to have a referendum. Uh so uh what I'm saying uh and I'm I'm saying I think you'd have to have a referendum. And uh that has a time element involved in it.

[clears throat]

And I haven't talked to Charlie Brown. And uh I think maybe you should have. And uh you should at some point, not necessarily have to do it now. But I should think you would That's a discussion you should have. And I think that these uh uh council people uh would want to uh get some uh uh good legal advice uh as to whether or not that has to be a referendum matter. And if has to be a referendum referendum matter, we'd put it on the November ballot if they wanted to do that and they passed the legislation. I'm just saying that and throwing that out cuz I would hate to see uh pass a law and then the taxpayer come in and sue and then get it all overturned so we wasted maybe uh by the time it got through the appellate division, we're talking 3 3 years from now. So I'm just laying that out uh to say that the uh the council people uh uh should uh maybe discuss this with the administration and uh and if they instruct me to do so, I'll talk to Charlie Brown about it. He certainly uh knows as much as my that maybe more than I do. And if that is the case and if they're if they're so inclined to even entertain that then we should have some good legal advice because that's the kind of thing that brings lawsuits. You know what I mean? Because uh uh it would be publicized and the question is uh and that's an old law. It's part of our charter. Been there for as long as I can remember. So, uh something behind my uh head says uh let's move in a good legal way if that's what you want to do. Uh so that you're ready for the challenge. Uh

maybe there isn't one. I I've I uh know I'm and this council knows I'm very cautious about saying uh uh definitely what and what is not going to happen because uh when I think it's it will become a judicial matter like the thing we've got going right now about the cost of living thing uh I don't know what the Supreme Court's going to do. And uh but I do know that the residency law is old. It's part of my charter. And the the uh uh municipal home rule law says if you're changing the charter, you have to have a referendum. And that's one of the uh five conditions of when you can have a referendum in New York. And so I'm laying that out and uh I think that that is a very serious question and I'm glad you're here to talk about it. Uh and something there's plenty of notice. This is April. There's plenty of time to do things. Uh I was very uh rocky about the 5-year thing. I thought that that well, that's an amendment to the charter. But that's another thing to take away the whole law regarding in the in the firemen didn't do that. They went to the legislature. Uh well, once you go to the legislature, uh Utica's charter uh is superseded by the legislature. And so, uh I'm I I think that all of this is uh that's why they pay me to come here uh to give them legal advice. I don't I I never want a situation where they get taken to court and they say, "You know, you never said anything about

this." When they had the Buffalo uh uh where they had to buy all the property because of the uh contamination. When they built all those properties there, the only one who complained about that and said, "You know, my father said that this was a dump for years." And he was the attorney for the school board. Well, they didn't listen to him. And then uh Buffalo ended up having to buy all those properties, knock them down, and so on and so forth. Well, I learned a lesson from that years ago that uh your job is to tell people what you think at the time so you're on the record. I'm just saying to you, if you are serious about this and they're serious about this, I then we will get the Mr. Brown involved because he's he is truly the expert. And uh what he says, he would have to defend it one way or the other eventually. You see, that would be his job. And uh so I'm just putting that out, and I want the councilman to know that I don't make any uh comment one way or the other. I do not uh uh question the legality or illegality of such a move. Uh and but I know that the when you've got the charter that is in the municipal home rule law specifically. And that's been in the charter a long time. Now, they have been they passed a uh a local ordinance that allowed department heads to make application for people who are uh uh this necessary, but all the applicants through civil service

uh uh couldn't make it. Now, don't you police officers go through civil service? Yes. Yes. And uh so there's rules in there, too. About uh that. I think there's rules about residency, too, in the civil service law somewhere. I remember that. Section 50 or something. I don't I don't know. Anyway, so I'm putting that out only for a complete discussion of this matter by the parties involved. I'm only sorry that the corporation counsel's office representative isn't here tonight. Uh cuz this is they can bring this back to them, and Charlie and I could talk about it. And let's face it. As I said, any lawsuit would have to be defended uh by them. Uh and that would include common council. This and that I would either appear amicus curiae or stay out of it completely, depending on the wishes of the common council. So, uh

Thank you, Arnie. I'm glad that you came here this early and talked about this. Because if that's necessary, uh then you're going to have to wait till we're through anyway. Thank you, Arnie. The one thing I will say is this, when Syracuse they had identical residency laws we have. What they did was they didn't do away with the residency, they actually suspended it. And I wondered if that could be a legal consideration for us to do temporarily to help with the recruiting. So, you don't have to do away with it. That's the thing that Yeah, I'd like to know legally how they did that. Uh that's another thing. You I think somewhere in your discussion you were suggesting that the residency law should be temporarily suspended so that you could get more people in. Isn't that what you said? I'm sorry. I I I I think I got from your previous comments that what you were thinking of that maybe the common council could suspend the residency requirement for a period of time 5 years. so that you could get a better uh exposure of candidates. Yes, sir. Is that what you're saying? Yes, sir. Uh that I also think requires some discussion upstairs with the uh legal office. So, we do do it uh for some sort of insignificant job that they can't get anybody to do it. Like this uh Scott who said golf course is probably the only guy around who uh qualified for that job. So, uh that's provision. Uh not many people complained about it, and neither did the public. And I didn't complain about it because I thought it seemed like a reasonable thing to do.

Yeah, I know, Arnie. And uh I want to go home tonight, Judge. Pardon? I got to go home. I want to go home tonight. Joe. Thank Thank you, Judge. We have You did a great job. Thank you, uh We have Councilman Betters and then Council member Master. I just got one thing.

Thank you, uh Chief Williams. So, Chief Okay. Guys, thank you so much for coming in and uh I I I always laugh about this cuz I I never realized anything about residency when I was till I started campaigning and going door-to-door. And I I always after the first week or so, I always knew when I went to a police officer's door cuz they came running out. "What are you going to do about residency?" I didn't even know it. And then that was one thing that I was very big on on doing the 5 years. But my question is to all you guys, to the Judge, you can probably answer quick. So, when you talk about the charter and what's supposed to be, how did the previous mayor get four extra years when 8 years was in the charter? Wasn't there a way to go through and you got so many signatures? Right? What isn't there Right. So, why couldn't we do that? So, we we actually can do it two ways. You can do it as a petition of ballot because it was done by Mr. Brown for them. So, you would have to collect signatures so that you would have to waive the residency or overturn the residency or whatever you wanted to do it. Then they would have to submit it to the to the board of elections to see if they have the board of elections can actually have it on the ballot. Um if not, once that goes to the council, depending on the time frame, you either bring it to the ballot or you bring it to the council or override. But the mayor did the If you read the actual component of the mayor's petition, it says just bring it to the elected representative because he ran out of time that he had to get five members of the council to vote for him to overturn that. And that's how he was able to Well, I mean, we would have Looks like we would have nine council people to do it now. It seems like everybody's in favor of this. So, you would have to you would have to You would have to get signatures. And and and it's kind of

similar to in any time that a uh a referendum's done by either, you know, through the council or or it's done by again a petition referendum, that there is certain ways. And I know New York State only allows I think maybe What is it? Three to five ways in order to get something on the actual ballot. Um I I I mean, that's that's how we would have to do it. We wouldn't be able to do that. We wouldn't be able to do something like that ourselves. So, obviously it would have to be an effort in conjunction with the police department, maybe the, you know, the union to help us if we were to go get signatures to submit it to the council in order to do that. It would have to It would have to be done by something along that. But I think that's the point I think that's the point that he's trying to explain that Charlie might be able to find a way that we're able to suspend it. And I think that that's something if the council's okay with that in in a temporary component um going there. But I know that we had a discussion and even um about like if there is a police officer that just was hired and they didn't have their residency waived and something like that. So, obviously there would be some hurdles that we would have to go through, but it's not something that we can do overnight. It would It would be a It would be a little lengthy of a process. And I think that Charlie Brown could probably along with the Judge give us a recommendation how to do I appreciate that, Chief. And I know that you I know that I know that that's what we Well, there's there's there is different components. And that's why I said that's where the New York State referendum component comes in because there are several different ways that you can do a referendum. Like I said, by way of permissive petition of ballot and so on and so forth. Um but that's something that I I mean, we would have to obviously just discuss and figure out what our options actually are. And I know that that's the discussion. That's why I invited you to come speak tonight cuz I think it is important to start the discussion. I'm good. That's it. All right. we have Councilman Burmaster, then Councilman Carcone after that. Yeah, I I was thinking the same thing, you know, why why can't we just postpone it or or put it on the back back shelf and not

take it off the books and then see what we have to do to get this on the ballot so the people could vote for it, so we could change the residency so it would make it hopefully um easier to to to the higher those needed positions and and I don't know why we can't just take it off and and and postpone it now and and and and Cuz the way it was done, their state law only allows you to do it a certain way in order to overturn a referendum. Well, the mayor got he got away with it.

Right, because he had signatures and that's what I said, he he was not supposed it was not supposed to happen that way. It was supposed to go to the ballot, but he ran out of time. So because he ran out of time, he submitted the petition to ballot to the actual common council. And I believe at the time Lou Burrell was on the council when the time that that petition for the term limits was actually instituted because they gathered signatures in order to do that. So there there there was there was really a contentious component of that because it wasn't done the way it should have been if that's if that's how we're speaking if you know, the original intent of that actual petition. So if we're going to do something right where you actually have people's jobs on the line, I think that we got to cross our T's and dot our I's to make sure that that's done correctly. I do understand that. I just you know, with the seven people that he's has right now, maybe that would open it up right now and and you know, and state law Well, I I just I want He tried to do it with Boland. You know, and maybe we can get on the ballot for June. I don't know. I don't know what the timeline is. I don't know what you need for how many signal I I don't know. How many years do you need to go over? I'm still living in this city. Pardon? I mean, she's still in the city. So I mean, her her argument Hold on, let's stay on track. Councilman Burmaster. But that was my question, you know. Let's help him now, you know. I I I I got We help him now and it's going to help him in in the future as well. And and and and another thing we we've got to concentrate on is the salary. If if we're we're that low, we're going to have to find a way We got to put it in the contract that to come up with a bigger salary Yeah. to entice these people to come to you to to to the city. You know, uh What you got? So I I don't know how we're going to I think they should do dual residency. Dual residency. Can we do that now? I mean, council people do it. Why can't the police department do it? Have a house in Madison, have a house in Utica, call it

a day. I'm all set. Okay, Councilman Carcone has the floor. All right. It It's It's I've been saying this for 2 years that we're going to be short of policemen. For 2 years I've been saying it. So now we're in a panic mode cuz we're short now. I didn't anticipate it happening this quick either. Okay. Residency, we're obviously going to have to get some legal advice. Soon as we get the legal advice, we'll move it on it as quick as we can. But there's one of my main concerns There's three main concerns. First of all, all these policemen are just leaving after 20 years because there's no incentive for them to stay. And in the next contract, we're going to have to have some nice incentives because we're losing good policemen. I mean, it's great to bring in young guys, but it takes them a while to become good policemen. The guys that are retirement retiring are already good policemen. So we got to give them some kind of incentive to leave. Okay? We already lost the incentive to try and get people from other departments to come here with some experience because we got nothing to offer. We can't offer them pay, we don't offer them anything better. Number two is the residency has to be done right away and the pay has to be lifted right away. There's no question about that. So if you could get some of the 20 people to stay 23, 24, 25 years with some nice incentives that make it worth their while, which other police departments do, these bigger police departments in the cities big cities are definitely having this problem and that was one of the ways they were solving it. They were giving them huge incentives to stay. And when you get a good the policeman to stay, that's like hiring two new policemen. Number three is this this is totally ridiculous that we

start people that low and our officers are probably offer answering six times the amount of calls that the sheriff is is answering and six times more dangerous than the sheriff is answering. So raise the You got to We all got to vote to get in the mayor's ear to raise their starting rate. We got to get in the legal department to see how we can get rid of this residency. And we got to get in his ear to give these guys incentive to stay. I mean, there's no incentive for them to stay at all. I mean, it's crazy. Here is one Stephen I wanted to make that I forgot to bring up earlier. Our Our situation is bad now. What I think I want to bring to your attention what you need to know is that our situation is going to be much worse next year. I have two academy classes that will reach their 20-year mark next year in 2027. It's a total of 23 officers. And the rate that most officers are not staying beyond 20. So my situation is bad now, I expect it to be worse next year and time is of the essence. Um unless there's no question about it. Do you Do I get a question? Councilman Lamendola, thank you, Chief. Now on on the lateral, if they're coming over let's say from another another agency, is is that a union issue that they come over at the starting pay or is that Where does that fall into the to the realm? So it's based on the contractual agreement between the union and the city. So are we are are we talking with the union and and the and the negotiators that this is an important issue here that we need to change that? Are we meeting on it? Do you need something from the council?

what I wanted to know. Do you need something from the council stating that we would like that changed? Would that help or I think that would help more than residency. Honestly, I think that anything would help at this point. I I think what needs to do is I know there's the city's currently in negotiations with the fire department and rightfully so, they need a contract. Ours is urgent. Our contract needs to be settled sooner rather or later because I can tell you that most officers leave after 20 years. They are very marketable. Well, that's that's what the that's what the problem is. And they're going elsewhere and there's more incentives to leave now than there are to stay stay. So one of the things I I forgot to include when I was talking about the contractual things, there has to be retention um incentives to stay in any upcoming contract. What I was kind of disappointed is that I recently I I learned some of the contract demands by the union and despite my conversations with them, they didn't include as one of the priorities raising the the salary for starting officers. There's nothing about retention incentives. What about the lateral? Nothing on that either. What are the three most important things that we're covering here today and none of them are involved in the negotiations.

part, I think the lateral part I'm sorry. I I think the lateral part would almost be In other words, a guy that's going to Syracuse, I actually know a guy that's going to Syracuse every need to be cop. He's got eight or nine 10 years in. I'm not sure what he's got there. If he was able to come with his pay here, he would come in a heartbeat. I I almost think that if you did the right lateral moves, I think it would almost be better than I mean, you want to do both, but I think you'd get more people um than like new recruits. Plus you now you're getting like like Councilman Carcone says, now you're getting good people. You're getting somebody that's been a cop for eight or 10 years. He's got everything, you know. And we need to do both and it needs to be done.

And And these people that are retiring after 20 years, they can find a job overnight. Okay? There's security is such demand in every aspect of the world right now. It's ridiculous. Okay? So we got to make it so the incentive not only helps them right away, but it helps them with their retirement when they retire. So if they say, "Oh, I'm not going to retire now cuz if I stay another three or four years, my retirement's going to be huge." So we got to work on not only increasing their pay, but helping their retirement with these incentives. It's so important to keep experienced policemen. I mean, these these kids that are coming in, they're young. This This is They're crazy. They're going into a crazy world. I was at Cliff's the other night and there was 40 people in front and this one police officer, who is a young kid, small guy, he had to disperse it alone. I was terrified for the guy. You never know what was going to happen. They left. They listened to him. What the One time that they don't leave and listen to him and somebody pulls a gun or a knife, what's this guy going to do 30 people there and he's there by himself? You got to have experienced people with these kids. And we're probably I don't know if you are, but they're probably being rushed into situations that if we had enough experienced guys, these young inexperienced guys probably won't be put in these situations. I I don't know if that's the case. Experience in the 4:00 to 12:00 shift, which is my busiest shift. Street experience is roughly 2 and 1/2 years. That's what I'm saying. I mean, you got to have somebody if you get into a bad situation like that. I was watching this whole situation. Luckily, the kid handled it right and he didn't get any resistance. But, I was going to wonder what a young kid like that was going to do if he got resistance and he was there by himself before help would get there.

I mean, you get a guy that's got 10 15 years in, he's definitely better at handling a situation like that or giving this kid advice to handle a situation like that. My biggest concern would try to keep the people that have experience on. Wai- waving the 5-year residency rule, that's a no-brainer because you don't even get enough applications from the city to hire enough people. We just got to go according to the judge, we got to go through the right procedures to do that. We can't do that. And the And the pay, anybody just saw those pays, we should be embarrassed. We should be embarrassed we're we're paying people to put themselves in situations like that at that kind of pay. That's That's I'm embarrassed. I'm totally embarrassed. I mean, I've been on I I Really, I'm not embarrassed cuz I've been on the council like 2 and 1/2 years and from the first day I was on, I kept on saying that everybody in this room, every meeting, this was going to be a problem. Thank you, Councilman. Councilwoman Aiello. Uh thank you. So, when I look at our residency laws for the police department, and this is where we can talk to corporation counsel, but I don't I don't even know how to say this, but I don't see how our residency laws are legal for the police department when I'm looking at public officers law uh section uh what is it? Three? Qualifications for holding office. And when you're looking at um there's paragraph two here and it just reads, "Neither the provisions of the section or any general, special, or local law, charter, code, ordinance, resolution." Basically, it says none no law requiring a person to be a resident of the political subdivision or municipal corporation of the state for which he shall be chosen or within which official functions uh are required to be exercised shall apply to the appointment of a person as a member of the police force. So, basically, no residency laws from what I'm reading and understanding of qualifications for

being a police officer can be implemented. Um So, in other words, are you saying that what we were talking about earlier, state legislature with the with the fire departments Right. also applies to police officers, which what which something I was wondering, too, if the fire departments have a state law regarding residency, the police, you know, would it would the question would follow, is there something in the pipeline or that's been lobbied by the state PBA to introduce something similar unless it already may exist as of a couple years ago if it's a newer law. So, I mean, that's something to

Are we inconsistent with the state law, then? So, what I've always been told with the New York State Chiefs of Police Conference, seems like they have more advocates the fire department does than the state uh you know, with the police um statewide. And that's how they got that, you know, um law passed many years ago. Yeah, but um and I know that for years there's been strong feelings about the community about residents feeling that their police should live in their community cuz the residents felt safer. And I don't disagree with that. I mean, when we have a candidate that comes before us, if they look a resident, they're going to get the preference over anybody who lives outside of the city. But, I don't have that luxury anymore. Um I'm to the point now is that as long as they can pass our background pass um pa- um you know, process and uh and uh they seem like that I'm not going to put them in a position where they're going to hurt themselves or someone else, then I'm going to take a chance on hiring them. And And I understand the position and, you know, we say part of the community. I think we could look at community broader than the city. I mean, if we're talking one or two towns over, I would still consider that person part of the community even if they're just outside the city limits. So, I think, you know, using that using that as an example, it could be someone who went to the school district, could be someone who has strong ties to the city, but they just so happen now to live in Clinton or New York Mills or somewhere outside of the city just just to add that. And And to echo on that, I I've seen a uh police department, in fact, my son was part of it. What happened was they were trying to get policemen to stay in the city. And And what they did was they offered policemen in your neighborhood and they would get a house. The The The policeman would be able to buy a house. And if he lived there for 5 years, the city would pick up the rest of his mortgage. So, in other words, if it was an $80,000 house, if you if you lived there for 5 years,

you would only have to pay 40,000 and the city would help you with the rest. And that's like an incentive to keep a policeman in in the city. I mean, if he could go buy a house and they could pay half of it. And And they're doing that more than one city now. I I I just read an article on that. That's another thing we could probably try and bring to the table. You know, have a cop in your neighborhood, it was called. And the city would help with the mortgage. In other words, you'd pay half and the city would pick up half after you lived there for 5 years. And I mean, I I I think something you could throw on the table. I know it's still been done in other cities. I mean, have you ever heard that? Yeah, so I'll give you an example. One of the recent conversations I had with the Rochester PD, they're 120 officers shy of their compliment right now and they're trying to hire 120 officers in 1 year and they just don't have the candidacy for it. So, a lot of agencies like Rochester, they're trying to be creative because they're dealing with these rich suburbs that can't afford to pay their officers more like, you know, Town of Brighton, Greece, just to name a few. So, what they did was they tried to offer instead of officers to stay, what they did was they said the officers that at least 25 years or more, they would get free health care. So, all these agencies are coming up with different ways to try to obtain officers. Um and right now, I mean, there are worse than to leave in the other state. For example, in our contract right now, if an officer leaves before his 21st year, he'll get 20% of his last year's salary in a lump sum. You got to do these things like that. Did you ever hear of this have a cop in your neighborhood and help with the mortgage? I I have, but not in New York state I'm aware of. No, it was in other states, but it's it's a great incentive. I mean, and you're bringing somebody into the city like you want them. I mean, that's another thing we could put on the table, too. No, you I know

what it reminds me of, like a student loan program. If someone spends 10 years with the with the municipality or government employment, they get a certain amount of their student loans forgiven. So, Uh Councilwoman Aiello, did you have something? I can't remember what it was. Thank you, though. Anyone have any questions, comments, uh recommendations for next steps getting additional people in here for any questions?

I I would love corporation counsel here just to discuss this law cuz I don't see how we are inconsistent Well, it doesn't even matter if we're inconsistent with the the laws cuz from my understanding of the public officers law, I just think we got to get a closer look at that. We also got to get the mayor in here. And And we got to get him to be on the same page with us. And I You're just going to have to push for this stuff. We need to get the union in here. And that's what I I wanted to say. They're not going to vote against anything that we could just say. I don't think if the union votes against getting half of their house paid for, better benefits in their retirement, I don't think they're going to have any problem with that. Or there's only a possibility they could make a fish out of it. So, you got to decide what your priorities are. Be it laterals, be it increased pay, or Well, and is that base pay?

of both to help us fill our compliment. As well. But, um no, listen, I just want to take say thank you to each and every one of you for at least hear me out. I I I say this cuz as bad as our situation is now, I really worry about 2027 because I may have as many as 23 officers that could retire in a year. And that worries me the most. And Chief, how many people have gone to be troopers or transferred out over the past 2 years? We are losing an average the last 3 4 years about three to four officers every year to the state police. Matter of fact, I had a former major from the state police tell me, "We are their farm team. They love hiring our people because they're experienced and they don't even actually when they get in the FTO program with their their a trooper, a lot of times they're cut loose very shortly because they they got more experience than the person that trained them." And And when they when they transfer, does the state pay us for all the training we did? No. Great question. So, there is a there is a There is a general municipal law that covers that. The state are exempt from having to pay that. The other thing that concerns me right now, the state, because they also are hurting with the recruiting, they are possibly talking about doing lateral transfers without having to attend the state police academy. If that happens, I hate to say it's going to be game over for us. Well, which is weird cuz like people transfer from other departments here, they didn't stay long enough at the other department, they had to pay back some of their money for training. Right. Which was totally insane. Totally insane that we didn't pick up their pay for what they had to pay the other department. We're getting a trained policeman that we would have to put that much money into anyways. And we won't pick up there and that was crazy.

And we want it. So, to your point there's a state law that basically says that if we hire an officer with less than 3 years um in his current employment with a police agency we have to reimburse him a pro rate cost for uniforms, training, equipment, all that. Yeah. And to your point earlier, I I understand the incentive of wanting especially in a city, you know, with all of our languages spoken here and how diverse it is and a lot of the suburbs are not and some people look at Utica and they think it's scary, but it's just diverse. And I see the perks of having uh I think it's safer when it we have our own people from here. Uh but it's also not safe to be down 20 plus officers and just finding that balance. So, yeah, if we look at these residency laws, but also find ways to incentivize hiring Uticans. There might be a balance there. If we could get something

Yeah, I mean, right now they're down they're down, but But we got Everybody's here talking right now. And I hope everybody is not just talking. We got to move on this quick and we got to push whatever we can push, the lawyers, the mayor. We got to push. Yes. You're not going to be able to I said this 2 years ago. You're not going to be able You already can't go to a couple grocery stores. You're not going to be able to go to any grocery store. All right? This is this is a serious serious problem. Everybody has their own personal agendas of certain things that have to be done. There is nothing more important than our safety. In my eyes. I don't know about anybody else's eyes. I think the council agrees with you. I don't think that

so. I don't think they disagree with you. Do you um No, no. Just as you guys mentioned this earlier and is it something we should consider bringing back again was the program that uh Stephanie Highland had? Would that be something you would agree that would be was helpful and would be something to consider bringing back? Jeez, I I I would say yes and no. I mean, it's it's a tough question because she did a great job.

I'm not saying not the pay raise and all the incentives, but on top of that It's just that it didn't bring any more candidates. I think we made it easier for them to apply. I think to her credit what she did she took a out dated way of how we were doing recruiting and made it more modernized this current generation. I give her a lot of credit for that.

Yeah. Thank you. All right, let's all get together and just start pushing it. Yeah, the mayor and her. We got to get this And the community to support too. You know, the community needs to know all of this and I don't think they really do. I just I mean, I we do and we're in it, but I think it's really important that we reach out to our community as well and and and tell them what's going on have them advocating with us. So. I get I I appreciate I wish I had at least hear what the the concerns are because I again, I just want to forewarn everybody 2027 is what scares me the most. There's nothing now. But thank you. I I appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Uh if we don't have any other business we can move to adjourn unless anyone has anything else. Second. Second. All right, we're adjourned. Thank you everyone. Thank you guys. We're having our class photo next meeting.