Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

started. Okay. We'll call to order the April 15, 2025 meeting of the Utah County Planning Commission. And first is our pledge of allegiance. Chris, would you like to lead? Okay, let's do that. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. First order of business is our minutes from March 18th. Do we have any changes to those minutes or a motion regarding the minutes? Motion to approve. We have a motion to approve. Is there a second? I'll second that. All in favor? I I I I Okay. Uh minutes are approved. We have a public hearing tonight and we'll open that public hearing after we take a vote on that. Um, the item is a proposed Utah County land use ordinance text amendment to chapters 8 and 16 and any other applicable sections. Do we have a presentation? Yes. Uh, I'll take care of that. It's Bryce Armstrong, Community Development. Um, if you recall about a year ago, staff reviewed our our designation for the board of adjustment as a land use authority. we were kind of an oddball in the state where we had our board of adjustment hearing um our conditional uses which is a uh administrative land use decision. And so we went through uh an effort to amend our ordinance to migrate those type those conditional uses over to to this board, the planning commission, which left the board of adjustment as a solely

as an appeal authority. um hearing um um alleged errors, appeals of a of a decision that administrative decision that's been made and also variances which is also a kind of a type of appeal to ask for relief from a standard in the ordinance. So um tonight we're looking at um specifically the appeal authority role of the board of adjustment. um staff has worked with the attorney's office and we feel that um kind of best practice would dictate that we create an opportunity or a provision in the ordinance that would allow a uh designation of an administrative law judge. Is that what it's called? Administrative law judge to act as the appeal authority. Um the idea is this um person would be um an attorney uh licensed in the state of Utah and may and is familiar with land use matters. um the appeal authority and and the types of appeals that go before the appeal authority are kind of a quasi judicial um matter. And so there it's helpful to have someone who's maybe a little more versed in in law, land use law, than our our our citizens. know, you know, citizens do great, but um especially with our board of adjustment, we we only convene now that they don't have conditional uses under their purview once a year, twice a year. And so, um we try and and train them so they're prepared for these type of of appeals, but you just you don't act on it for a year. It's kind of hard to to remember that. So, um, all that being said, um, we thought maybe it'd be best practice, which is also common around the state to have, uh, this type of, uh, provision in the ordinance that would that would

allow this position to act as the appeal authority to hear these matters. So, what I'll do is run through some of, uh, the red lines. There's there's quite a bit in there, but, a lot of them are just kind of reorganization and and housekeeping, but I'll try and hit hit the main ideas. Um we've got our uh attorney's office. Uh Britney Thorley has um helped us a lot with this and she can kind of and Dale can kind of help answer some of uh the uh legal questions and kind of the thinking behind all of that. Okay. So there are several sections of the ordinance that were affected. Um chapter 8 was affected just due to notification. I might add we've also went in did some general housekeeping that aren't specifically related to this effort but uh since we were in there we we kind of uh wanted to address everything we could at the at this time. So the first section there 8.04 um this deals with notification requirements. Certain types of uh applications require um certain types of notification as per state law. And so previously we we identified all the different types of matters that uh that may require notice and then generally just referred to state code. So rather than be redundant, we just are going to uh refer to all notification just be required to meet state code as amended and and not worry about spelling out each separate separate uh use, but just defer to state code. We've tried to do that as much as possible elsewhere in the ordinance. So, we're just trying to be consistent there. The only other item that would mention here is specific to um the appeal authority. I mentioned uh the appeal authority would here's variance requests. And so, previously, our

ordinance required that we send property notices um to adjacent property owners that were uh adjacent to someone who was appeal or was requesting a variance that was above what state law required. Kind of trying to be consistent with state state law. um could be sometimes problematic with bringing people to a meeting where they maybe feel like, you know, there's something that they can can input to into the decision. Um these these are again quasi judicial really um straight on the law and so um we felt that it's probably best to just follow stakehold on that and so we eliminated um the variance applications from receiving adjacent property notice good there. Okay. Um and then this gets into chapter 16 our kind of meat of this uh provision. This first part is just so I want to back up. We're not eliminating our board of adjustment. Um, we felt that it's a good option to have if the commission chose to, you know, hey, we we don't really aren't happy with our ALJ or whatever or, you know, we feel that the board of adjustments a better option. So, we wanted to leave that in the ordinance as an option. So, a lot of this was just kind of uh restating some uh provisions that were already there. And that's kind of what this these first sections are just kind of uh clarifying between a meeting and a hearing. These are truly hearings where these these are appeals. Um again, these are more just restating or clarifying what was already in in the ordinance. We get down to 1641. This is where we're inserting the provision for a land use administrative law judge to

be created. And so, um, our attorney's office helped draft this language to create, um, an ALJ and, um, as I noticed, uh, or as I mentioned earlier, subsection D kind of indicates some of those qualifications. I'll just skim through those and then I'll maybe take some questions when we get to the end here. Um 1644 is just our rules and procedures. Already had these in place for the appeal authority. We're just kind of clarifying these and and restating them. Um pretty much the rest of this is clarification. 1648 is more just clarification and just referring more to state code again rather than restating that. That's helpful when state code gets amended. We don't have to go in and always amend our ordinance. Um let me just get to a couple changes that you may have some interest in and then I'll entertain any questions you have. One thing that we did that you will find of interest, make sure I'm not missing anything that was too too much of a change. Um, again, these are all the different types of appeals they hear and the procedures for those uh applications. So, reference the state code [Music] there. These are variance requests that we used to spill out basically verbatim what state code

required. So um we just refer to state code. U one thing that has changed here is similar to the conditional uses and I'll get on that I'll touch on that in a second. When a variance is approved it has a duration of approval. Um, previously the ordinance kind of treat treated it like a like the conditional uses where the initial approval was one year but the uh board the appeal authority could set a different time period at the meeting and then after the meeting an applicant had the ability to come back and ask for an extension. Those of you that were here last month, that'll sound familiar. And so we felt that we needed to rein that in a little bit. And so specifically for variances, um it still allows someone at the meeting to say, "Hey, this is a really unique situation. We're going to need more than the one year." And and that justification can be heard and and determined at the meeting that the uh that the variance is being heard. after the meeting or after the hearing there is still an opportunity to enlarge that time period which is generally one year. Um but this extension this additional request we've limited it to a a one-time request up to one year. Now this is just for variances. Variances are a very different animal than conditional uses. And so we felt that uh you know if if you can't get that within a year then it probably needs to be reheard if uh you want to p someone wants to pursue that. Um and I'll get I'll get to the conditional use side of that change here in a second. Make sure we didn't miss anything else. Uh 1688 deals with um the procedure to appeal the appeal authority. Um just following

state code there. And 1694 is the part that deals with conditional uses which will affect this group. Similar to what we were just talking about. If you recall the current the present ordinance, let me get down to it here allows someone to well when they get their approval the the time to obtain a permit is one year but that can be ex enlarged at the meeting if for just cause. Um and then after the meeting there was no limit to someone coming back and asking for um extensions and we've we've seen that quite often not just with the applicant last month but some of our large solar farms. they've, you know, they've got certain uh processes they have to go through and part of that is getting the local authority approval first and so then they've got to follow up with a bunch of other um steps and so there there is justification for these extensions. We recognize that, but we just felt like we needed to put in some limits. And so, similar to the board of or the variance um limits, it still allows someone to make their case at the meeting and have upfront saying we're going to need we know we're going to need more than one year, but now it's actually three years to um obtain our permit and this is why and then the planning commission can determine that at that time. Um the default we've changed from one to three years. So if someone comes in ask for a conditional use and they don't ask for any additional time then they have three years to get their permit rather than one year. And then relative to coming in after the meeting we're allowing someone to come in one time for an extension request of up to five years. We fill kind of what we've seen and and with other applicants that that

should probably be enough. If if someone knows there's going to be a a challenge upfront, then they can make that at the original hearing, get some additional time, then they still have that ability to come in and ask for additional five years. But we wanted to to put some caps onto that. So, okay, I blew through a lot of stuff there. Um, ready for questions? Yeah. Okay. Well, now that our chair is here, uh, turn back to the chair. Is there questions from the commission? Uh just just my understanding on the variance, it's just u a one-year time period if there's conditions for that variance, right? Because the variance runs with the property, doesn't it? I mean, like if you're um or is my understanding of what a variance does wrong. Yes, it does. So a lot of times a variance will be utilizing a structure or use that's already present. So the time frame is kind of that doesn't apply. But if someone's coming in and saying I want to build this structure and I want to build it one foot from the property line where 15's required and they get that approval um then they have a certain time limit to get that permit for that for a new use. Okay. But you're right. But if I mean if they if they have 99 ft uh to build a home, you give them a variance. I mean, they're not going to have to tear down the home in a year or anything like that, right? You know, or front, you know. No, I mean, this is this is pursuant to a a permit to utilize that permit if if this is a new use. Okay. I have a couple questions. Yes. Um, so in here it says that there's an administrative law judge that will be appointed. U appointed could mean two different things. Are we talking about a volunteer position or a paid volunt

position with the county? So, this I'll let the attorney's office uh speak a little more to this, but this will be um someone that the county will enter into a contract with and they'll they'll be paid to serve in that role. Okay. So, we're sending still appointed by the commission, county commission, right? But they're they're an administrative law judge that's appointed by the commission, but they're supposed to be impartial, but they're employed by the entity that is part of this process of appeal. Correct. Is there a conflict within that? It seems like there would be. No, there is not. Okay. They're they're they're not employees. They're independent contractors. They sign a contract with us. The contract requires them to be impartial and unbiased. The renewal of that contract is also from the the commission. Yes. They enter they entered into that contract with Utah County through the county commission. Yeah. And if they don't follow their contractual terms, they can be terminated and another ALJ. This is this is fairly common in government. Just hasn't been here for some reason. I don't know why. We we expect ALJs to be used throughout the county in other capacities, too. Um, it's just something we're starting here. The other counties already do it, but it's something that we're trying to initiate here. As far as I know, this will be the first time. We're the guinea pigs. Uh, which is okay. It needs to start somewhere. This seemed like a good place for Utah County. For Utah County. Well, sorry, one other question. What does the state code say as far as the form function and requirement for a board of adjustment? Does it require that they exist or have specific duties or is that just a thing that we've done in the past?

Uh Britney Thorley, Utah County Attorney's Office. Um so the the state code just says that there needs to be an appeal authority formed and it can take it can take the form of a panel like we've had or it can be an administrative law judge in the ALJ. Okay. So it's both are permitted by state code. You can choose either or both, however works. Okay? And the county commission will actually make that decision probably on a yearly basis um as they allocate budget funds for either a BOA or a ALJ and it could change. Some commissions may feel like they want an entire board to hear something and some may feel that an ALJ is more efficient and effective. I did just want to comment too on your last question. Um if you're concerned about undue influence of the board of the appeal authority generally um it really takes the same form because the the board of adjustment has been appointed by the commission as well and so this is just a separate appointment process. Sure. The only difference I can really see is uh compensation where a board of adjustment is not compensated. Yes. Although BOA could be compensated if we chose to. Well, where's that then? Yeah, 20 bucks a meeting. We need to form a union. Hey, that was struck down this year. Spencer Cox. Yeah, but they're gathering signatures. Very true. So, so a question I have, is it common that they're that they'll serve for an indefinite time? Sometimes in my mind, you know, hey, sort of indefinitely, then there tends to be, you know, if there's some issues. I mean, how how does one are you talking about the ALJ? Correct. Yes. ALJ will be a contract term, one year, two years, three years, whatever the contract is. And of course, it will there will be a termination

clause. The the county commission can terminate it. Uh they can also choose not to fund. Everything that happens in the county has a funding provision and if it's not funded the next year, it doesn't happen. So, no, it it's not indefinite because I mean that's what it says in B. It shall serve for an indefinite time at the pleasure of the county commission and may be released with or without cause. Yeah. So, yeah, that that's that's the way we would draft the contract. Yeah. Okay. And just for more context on that too, um it is possible the way this is written to appoint more than one ALJ at a certain time just so that there's I mean same with this group, right? So if someone cannot come to a certain uh meeting, there's sort of backup and that's also at at the discretion of the commission, but only one ALJ would ever hear one hearing at a time. That's a good point. Um there can be conflicts with ALJs. You know, if they take a case and they were involved in it as a private attorney, they can't hear that case. So there would be backup ALJs with contracts. Any other questions? I kind of missed the initial um introduction to the topic. Is it We're doing this to try and adhere to state code. Is that the basically not necessarily more kind of best practice? Um these the the types of matters that come before the appeal authority are quasi judicial matters and um really need to follow follow state law and when you get a board of citizens um we found in the past that sometimes you know there's sympathy involved and well that doesn't make sense you know that's you should get that and so um and and we've had several of those decisions and and it can

that could open up the county to some liability for sure. And so we want to kind of uh maybe ensure that we're getting, you know, the law followed in these these type of appeals and more consistency with the law. And we picked up some of the duties of the from from that group, right? The conditional uses conditional use we picked up from them which are which are not um these quasi judicial appeal type of uses. That's more of a administrative land land use decision. And I don't know if you heard this part, but we were only getting maybe one one meeting a year at the board of adjustment. And you know, it's hard for them to remember what their duties are, their roles are when you're just meeting that infrequently. We also had an interesting comment from Commissioner Beltran who who sat on that board and he was in favor of an ALJ. He just felt like the nature of the the business before the board and how he had seen those meetings run. He felt that an administrative lodges would probably be better. That was that was kind of a that was kind of the tipping point. We knew this was best practice for several years thinking about it, wanted to do it, and then he kind of said, "Yeah, you need to do that." Okay, let's let's let's see how Oh, then I'm voting against it if Skyler wants it. these the these decisions of the the appeal authority, if those decisions are appealed, that go straight to district court and we've had those appealed quite often and so, you know, there's some some liability to the county. What's been the resolution that when they've been appealed, is it generally something that goes in favor with what the board of adjustment had decided or does it tend to go the other direction or is it just all over the place? My experience has been it's they didn't follow the law and the applicant knew it and so they appealed it and then the the

court would remand it back to the to the board of adjustment. I have a question. So is is the vetting process is that is it hard? I mean how much energy has put in get put into vetting the person who's going to be that on the contract? I feel like it's pretty good. I mean, um, the attorney's office, of course, looks at all of them, make sure it's someone, um, that we've watched practice, that's responsible, um, has a good reputation, does good work. Um, of course, then they go to the county commission and they do their own investigation and decide if it's a someone they can trust. Um, it's contractual. If we find out they're not doing a good job, we terminate the contract, get someone else. Um it in other areas they found it to be very helpful because like Bryce said if these appeals are denied and they go right to district court, we've already had a lawyer look at it and so then we're going to have a lawyer look at it in district court and the the district judge. So it it tends to be that the issues are narrowed and they're limited to legal issues. Um rather than getting into trouble with any politics or persuasion or clamor or anything like that. We don't see that with an ALJ ALJ decision. It'll be more a very narrow legal issue that maybe they got wrong and now a judge needs to overturn it. But it's less likely in that case. So, back to the we we picked up some of the duties from the board of adjustments here, but we are Did we vote on that at some point that we would pick those up? You did. We did. I'm trying to remember. And um and so this this this fall even

though this these changes are fall fall to us to recommend to the commission. This is yeah what what we're dealing with here and what we dealt with there was an an an amendment to the Lanny's ordinance on how we apply the ordinance. And so those by state law require receive a recommendation from the planning commission. Any other questions, commissioners? We already hear we already did what we already afterwards. So, sorry. No further questions. Do we need to open it? Yeah. Yeah. You need to make have a motion. Entertain a motion and vote on opening public hearing. Are we ready to open a public hearing? Anyone? I move that we open the public hearing. Second. Okay. Okay. It's been moved and seconded to open the public hearing and we'll start down here with Commissioner Herod on a vote. Uh I Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We're now in a public hearing. Is there any one that would like to address the the commission in the public hearing? Okay. It's kind of weird a second site on this thing. Usually it's the applicant and it's the there's nobody. Okay. So, is there if there is no other questions, is there a motion to entertain on this? I would make a a motion to uh uh recommend approval to the Utah County Commission uh as listed under section four of the staff recommendations. Second, section four, uh page three. your blue. I found it.

Okay, we've got a motion to approve as as it's been recommended under section four of the staff recommendations. Is there any further discussion to the motion that's on on the table? Okay, then we'll have a vote. We'll start down on this end. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I Yes. We've got a recommendation for the county commission. Just as a matter of housekeeping, you probably want to close the public. Close the public hearing. I move that we close the public hearing. Second. Moved and seconded to close the public hearing. And we'll start again down here. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. The public hearing is now closed and other business. So, yes, we didn't want you guys to make an effort to come out tonight and just only be here for a few minutes, so we're going to keep you longer. Um, state law requires that we uh do training every year, annual training. And I know a lot of you have been to some of the um outside trainings that we've had, which is which have been great. But uh we're going to have our attorney's office uh give us some open uh open meetings training and also some general duty planning commission trainings. Um this is his baby, but uh I believe we've brought some sandwiches over in the other room. And so I highly recommend you go get something. Just anything. before we start. Before we start while I talk, then you can leave. I kind of wish that I had known that before. As long as fast as possible, I promise you the training timer has started. Then we can feel free to go get Yes. Yes. Go right ahead. Oh, I know you

guys, please. If we start an hour, we get a credit. So, we're already hours for an hour. Okay. How's your Let's do this. No, I think your question was good if there's conflict, but I would argue Not easy on this at all.

And and just one more playback speed button that we one and a half two something. This guy just needs a speed test. Um I I will just one mention on the business um that you conducted today that we needed you to do that this this month. Um you know we've kind of been operating in a twilight zone. Um we could have an appeal next month and so we're already four months in the year so we we needed you to do that. Appreciate your your time and attention to us so we can move that on the county commission. Um you you should have received this training every year you're here. Um, and so this won't be new to some of you, but what I've learned in in government is it's it's often overlooked. Um, I got a call three Mondays ago from a per a county employee who sits on another board and he said, "Are you going to be at the board meeting tomorrow morning?" And I said, "Well, it's not on my calendar. I wasn't planning on it." And I said, 'I don't think you want to have a meeting tomorrow.' He said, 'Well, why is that? He says, cuz it wasn't noticed up. It's an open public meeting and you have to notice those or you can't. He had just completely just spaced that off because I think other people do it for him. But it let me know that this is something we need to train regularly and keep in in people's minds. Um that you know, well, let's get into it because you'll you'll see why. Um why did why do we have OLA the open meetings act? Um it's it's really an easy question. It it's all about government transparency. We do everything in open public meetings and um every public body should be doing their business in in an open public meeting. And that's really what the statute is and says and why we forget that sometimes I'm not

sure. it. The presumption is every meeting is open to the public unless closed. That's what we start with. That's that's what should be in everyone's mind when you sit on one of these boards or you become an elected official, especially when you become an elected official. Um that should be in your mind. Am I sitting in a meeting that should be open that the public should be here? That should be recorded. We we want that to be the default for people in government that can I legally be doing this. It's always a good question. And you know when you get into this um it really becomes second nature. You know county commissioners they think about it all the time. When they walk into a room they look around the room and if they see another commissioner they're thinking open meeting which is what we want them to do. Um it's a sunshine law. It's all about making sure the government's work is done in public so that um so it can be tested by the public um whether you know those those are the people that are going to call us out if we're doing something wrong. So um we do everything in in public. Um let's go on. And by the way, right there at the end of that slide, you'll see that statutoily you're required to have this uh training annually. So what you're here you're you're earning your money today because you can't operate unless we have this training. So we have to do it. There's money. Yeah. You're you're eating it. Um a few definitions. Th this is more important to to to lawyers usually, but it does come up. Um, in fact, we're having a meeting of a county body tomorrow and one of the first questions was, is it an open meeting? Is it a public body? It's an employment type

hearing. So, turns out it is. Um, so there's a definition of public body. So, you can identify what what government bodies need need to have open meetings. We follow the the the definition completely. We we look at all of those elements to make sure I won't bother you with those, but but you're clearly covered as an advisory board to the county commission. Um so our our meetings have to be open. You're you're clearly a public body. There's no question about that. A quorum a quorum is nec we we we look at the definition of quorum because unless you have a quorum under the statute, you cannot convene or do any business. And that's why you see the the flurry of emails before every meeting. Will we have enough members here? Because that is a statutory requirement. If you don't have enough, you can't you can't convene the meeting and you clearly cannot do any any business. So, it's important. What is a meeting? Now, this isn't really important to you guys. um you guys know when you're in a meeting, but it could be important if four of you, which is a quorum, um were to meet somewhere outside this meeting, um and heaven forbid start talking about something on the agenda or something before you. You know, at that point, you should be thinking, are we holding a planning commission meeting right here? Are we doing something wrong? That's what we want to be going off in your head. those red flags. Um, you know, first of all, I am a member of a public body, the Utah Planning Commission is. So, right there, you know, um, is are there more than four members present in this meeting? Wherever it is, parking lot, you know, BYU stadium, wherever is there more than four? I should be thinking, are we doing anything wrong? And then um they've changed the the

definition of meaning, which I hasn't been tested yet, but I feel like it's going to help us. And what I mean by that is, see, if four of you are up at uh up at Cougar Stadium in a ball game and start talking about something before this board, um you're a public body and you're a corpse, so you you've meet the first two. But the question is, are you in a meeting that's been convened legally? Um, this is new. Okay, this this hasn't been tested. We have no queso on it, but it feels it feels right. Um, that meeting at Cougar Stadium is not a meeting because it was not convened by Shane, the the chairman, following lawful process, which is notice um for the express purpose of acting as the board. So, it's probably not going to be a meeting. The reason I think this is helpful is that did not exist before. So, that anytime four or more members of your board would be together anywhere, there would be a question whether it's a public meeting and you'd call up the attorney's office and say, "Hey, we have a problem here." Um, you wouldn't you would you would be surprised how often this comes up. Um, especially for elected officials. You know, they're sitting at UWAC meetings in St. George or worse a budget retreat somewhere in southern Utah and all of a sudden oh there's too many of us here especially for a three commission three commission is maybe one of the worst inventions in government um five would be much better but I I don't want to get on that soap box not tonight so um we do have a definition of a meeting it is fairly narrow I like that um so what does open require here's the thing just to keep in your mind. Our meetings must be open unless they're closed. And we will talk about closed meetings. Don't anticipate you having any. Um, here's something you don't do,

but we do. Marie does. Record all meetings and prepare minutes. As a public body, that must exist somewhere. The public has to be able to review your meetings and uh look at your minutes. Um, the next one, predetermined actions. That is new this year, and that is why I feel like they've covered the whole meeting problem. We'll get to that in the next slide. Notice. Notice is critical to open meetings. If the public doesn't know when and where you're meeting, they can't be there. They can't speak. They can't comment. They can't watch. They can't report. And so notice is clearly required for public bodies and having notice. And then of course we hit again the training annually. So we like to repeat that just so you know we aren't intentionally torturing you with this information. It's actually necessary. Okay. So, this is new pred. Are we allowed to ask questions? You can ask any question you want. Okay. So, the notice is is funny because I feel like like the general public, they don't know where to go. So, so it's sort of like you kind of have the check mark box. We noticed notified, but people don't seem to really be still informed. So, so how I mean it still seems a little disingenuous to say, well, we notified, but if nobody knows what to look for, okay, we we have a notice slide, and I think I'll get into that a little bit more, but um it's designed the best we can to give notice. You know, if we had billboards, it would be better. Um, but we have a public notice website and then we have the county website. And what what we've learned is people learn where to go. People who care enough to know want to know about meetings, they know where to go. Um so it is effective for those who care.

Now as far as publicity, marketing, you know, g you know trying to publicize it, yeah, it doesn't work that way. But as far as a legal requirement of notice, it it does work that for that. It wasn't too long ago where you were looking in the classified legal notices for this tiny print. I mean, the states really made an effort to say you there's one place you can go where all the public meetings will be noticed. You can set your you can get alerts for meetings that you have interest in. And so I think there's there's recognition of that they're trying to address. It's better than it's been. Is there another question? Okay. So, um this this is the one you want to look at that might trip you up. Um so, the concern that we've always had with open meetings is are members of the body doing business outside of the public meeting? Now, this could come up in texts. We we have case law where um officials are texting during a meeting and so their comments aren't going out to the public and that was considered a meeting. You had a you had an illegal meeting over your text messages and rightfully so. Um they were conducting business by text where no one could see it and no one could hear it. And so we've had this problem and it it it comes up in different ways. Um we want to make sure that decisions about the public business are not done secretly. So when they changed meetings, they they added this and they said, "We're going to use this to try and control these secret meetings.

If more if a quorum of of members of a public body get together coordinate, whatever you want to call it, in a concerted and deliberate way to predetermine an action. Now, again, this has not been tested in court. We don't know exactly what all of this means, but we have a pretty good idea that if there's ever evidence, you know, witnesses, um, text messages, emails, um, secret recordings of a quorum of a body, so four of you getting together and deciding we're going to vote this way. That would be an illegal closed secret meeting and would be voidable by by a court. It's also punishable by a class B misdemeanor, attorney's fees. Um, so it is fairly serious, but that's that's where they went with this and it hasn't been tested, but I'm okay with it. I think we can work with this. I think we can convey to you, please don't do this. Don't try to, you know, cook the books and get together and grease wheels and and make things happen outside of this meeting. And as you'll see here, this um our our newest attorney added this, which I think was very good. Simply asking a member's inclination on a vote could constitute a violation. I agree with her. Okay. Um this isn't tested. We don't know yet exactly where this is going to go, but that feels fairly close to predetermining. I want to know what you're doing so I know what I'm doing. No, we don't want that. We actually want it to be all done right here. Okay? We're not talking about information gathering. We're not talking about you calling Marie or Bryce say, "I need I need more info on this. Can you send me more info?" We're talking about voting, making decisions, predetermined actions. It could be the other way. It could be, "I want to shut this down.

Will you help me?" Okay. So, that's where we're going with Yeah. Um, so this is seems to me one additional reason why we have to be very careful in our email conversations as far as responding back to a an email that's been sent to all of us from staff saying, "Hey, the meeting's coming up." That that's not a form for us to ask questions about what's coming up on the meeting to be careful there. But also, if we have somebody of the public who happens to get all of our email addresses and put us into a group, does that then constitute a meeting just by them sending that and make that a public record? I would never. Very good. Um, no. Okay. Um, because we're going to we're going to cover that tonight really quickly in an exparte contact. We're going to shut that down. We're not going to let that happen to you. for instance. So the policy is right now if we were to send you out something that you would be using in a meeting, we would blind copy all of you so that no one none of you could respond back to the other members or reply all to the other members with an answer. We're not we we've taken precautions to make sure that doesn't happen. we'll get information to you, but we're not going to allow, you know, just an email response to create a meeting or a predetermined action. Okay? Same with someone on the outside. Um, when we talk about exparte contacts, we won't want you to do anything with that. We kind of talked about it that two meetings ago. Um, you get something, the only response is, Marie, I've got this. Take this out of my hands. I'm not responding. I'm not sending. and not forwarding, just give it to her. Okay, staff, we take care of that. So, I think we'll avoid any kind of predetermined action because you'll simply shut down

and say, "We're not responding. We're not responding to the per the sender. We're not responding to each other. We're sending it to staff and they'll get it to us legally." Does that answer your question? Okay. And so if you get an email and it looks like they went it to everyone but you can only see you, that's what's happening. We're sending out a blind copy so that you get information but you can't respond to everyone. So we don't have a quorum or a meeting or a predetermined action. Okay. Okay. Notice requirements. There's the notice requirements. Lorraine, I totally get what you're saying. Um, you know, due process is is what we live by. Um, but I also feel comfortable with these notice requirements in I think as like, you know, having been the HOA president and and in you know, a lot a pretty big community and as well um I'm sort of the the um spokesperson. I sent all the emails and notifications. it it just seems like you're going to be able to um prevent sort of a more clamorous meeting if people don't feel broadsided, right? And so I just feel like I feel like there, you know, maybe there should be an extra effort for the county to because a lot of people don't look I mean a lot of people have different ways that they're learning and getting information, right? And so I just think it behooves the candy to maybe get on Instagram and you probably are I mean this it's just amazing how many people don't do Facebook or then some people do Facebook. So it's it's difficult thing but it just seems like for you guys down the road when you have a very like something that could cause a lot of contention the more that people know about it ahead of time it just seems like it's less it would be less less conflict. Two two comments. Um, one, their attorneys, me being one of them, wouldn't allow it. Um, when you

undertake a legal duty, you also assume the responsibility and liability of doing it wrong or badly. So, our advice usually is to the county, whatever department it is, please follow state law because there's safety in in state law. So, we ask them not to do things like that. Now, I can tell you the second comment is these folks are so good at telling people this. Um, they get a phone call, they get an email, they get a person walking in, they're constantly telling them, "Hey, here's where you go." Okay? You've got the Utah State website, you've got our county website, you've got message boards where we post it. It's there. And what I've noticed is the people who you see regularly at your meetings, they know exactly how to do this. and they also help tell other people um this is how you get this, this is how you find out and um it's actually working. Don't you send out notifications? Like for example, if some somebody's putting in something on one property, you notify the neighbors around that. Isn't that that's the conditional use permit um um notification that you just saw. Yeah. Yes. So that yes, that is above and beyond state code. I think we're trying to, you know, you know, for better or for worse, we're doing that. Um, reszones, someone's changing the zoning designation on their specific property. State law requires that there's certain um additional notifications for those also because let's face it, some of the stuff that we deal with is pretty boring and the general public doesn't care to not to be notified about it. But those who care to be notified, we take extra extra efforts to get particular people who might be impacted the most. And so does state law. You'll notice that we removed four or five references to state law in the notice provision because state law already requires it. For instance, vacating a road. There's a lot of notice that's required to do that. We don't have to repeat it in the

ordinance. State code does take care of people. Yeah. So, yeah, we do mail out a lot of notices. Now, not to your meetings necessarily. Um but there is a lot to go out. And just one quick comment. Um we're going to be undertaking a pretty significant effort to update our our general plan here in the near future. Um that's something that obviously has state code require state noticing requirements that we'll meet. We'll also have open houses that will use utilize those other um mediums to to get the word out to have them participate in the open house and then you know they'll know it's on their radar and then they can follow the the official action items through the the normal channels. So you see under notice there's three Oh, go ahead. I have a question. So I know it's not, you know, part of the notice is the agenda and most of the time the agenda is set by staff. Is that is it is that true for most meetings? Oh yeah. Yeah. That agenda has to be set and and sent out and posted. So yeah, the staff needs to do that before you guys even get here. The public has to know what you're going to be talking about. we'll we'll have applicants that will apply and meet our meet our deadlines and so they're they're on and so they get on the application and then we you put other items that we want to bring to you. So I guess I guess the only thing I I was thinking is that if if we wanted to get something on the agenda, we could we can just get a hold of you say we need this on the agenda, but it has to be before this 24 hours so that that the agenda can be changed. Yes. Uh, we can put an item on the agenda without a vote. We could I could say, "Hey, I think we need to put this on the

agenda." You'd put it on the agenda and then when we got here, we'd vote to accept the agenda or whatever we do. I don't even know if we do that. I know in most uh parliamentarian meetings that you have to adopt the agenda, but do we do that here? I don't think we do. We We have not. But but you see where I'm going. I'm like like I see where you're going. Like I we haven't got a quorum, but I want to put this on the agenda. In the past, we we have had these type of situations arise and the planning commission in a meeting like this said, "Hey, we'd really like to see something like this brought back to us and that was a helpful when it was in a meeting and everyone kind of all the planning commissioners were there and in most cases most of everyone's like, "Yeah, I think I agree with that." Yeah. Yeah, I mean I know we we postponed a few items to a subsequent meeting which I guess sure forced it to be on the agenda. That was something that was already on the agenda but there's been situations where a planning commission has said because they have to vote on this agenda item got me thinking and I want to look at something else. So the county commission does the same thing. they when they do want to have us address something, they usually will in a public meeting take a vote to ask and request that be put on a planning commission meeting. So the county commission does the same thing. But absolutely, you should all feel free to call and say, "Hey, I would like to see this on the agenda." You know, we'll follow the proper procedure, make sure it's vetted and and and it's it's legal. Um uh Britney raises a good point. Um, even something that might be put on by a chair, for instance, says, "I want this on there. I want to hear it. I think it's it's it's necessary for the board to do this." Any problem with that agenda item is cured by the fact that the board has to vote. Yeah. So, even if there's something on the agenda that might be

controversial and some boards have a procedure where only the chair or the vice chair can put it on and because they've had problems in the past. Um, I don't think you guys have ever had that problem. But even in those cases, the the rest of the board doesn't want to hear that. It's it comes up on the agenda. It can't they can't do any formal action, just the two of them or just the one of them. So, it's kind of it kind of cures any problem. Another tool we've had and usually what we've done with the planning commission is that we have a work session option we can put. So, it's more of a discussion item to kind of flush it out to see what a potential land use application would look like. Can I go back to just the predetermined actions really quick? So, I mean like even like a school board, even the plan the county commissioners, they they really aren't really supposed to be talking to each other. I'm just imagining a school board not I mean talking because I know when I've been with Neville school board like I wasn't on the school board but I knew a lot of schoolboard members where they knew who was going to be at that meeting and they knew it was going to be a rockus meet. I mean I can't imagine they're not having a discussion amongst each other of how to deal with that. But you're saying that that's not it's not legal. That's not legal. That's with a quorum. Right. Without a you can still conver you can have a conversation without a Yes. Right. So two people of a seven member can get administrative. Okay. So couple comments. Um it has to be a quorum and and that's why the three member commission is the worst kind. Now here two of you could get together and talk. Yeah. Um because it's not a quorum. Um also consider that there are some bodies that have administrative duties also and so they can actually do administrative acts without violating open meetings. Okay. So there's a lot of things that like especially county commissioners do that aren't in open meetings and it's not a violation. I know it might look

like it. You might think I that's count that's county business you need to do. No, it's administrative so they can actually do it. Okay. But yes, open meeting violations occur on a regular basis and we try to limit damages, mitigate and cure every chance we get. Um, and the best thing is are these trainings where we put in people's minds? Are we violating open meetings right now? That's the best question you can ask. Now, just one one more thing on that. So, I know we do get notice of the meeting coming up and I request to just acknowledge if we can be here and I there's no chance that becomes somehow a meeting or an agreement to be there or something with because it isn't that one's not in blind copy. No, you're you're just letting us know you're going to be here. We have to have a quorum. Um, but you still have to be careful in in a response on that to to be Yeah. You shouldn't be asking, hey, I'm going to be there. Will every is everyone voting this way on this? That's bad. Yeah. Um, and and and even in a response there to say, "Hey, would will this be be on the agenda?" I'm just trying to think, is there like even asking about the agenda? Is that conducting business? No. No. because the the email you got has the agenda and you maybe you'll ask why isn't this on the agenda at that point no one's going to respond to you okay we're going to just do that oneonone okay that makes you haven't convened a meeting well but he but but if you ask a question about an agenda item if we got too many email responses and everyone's seeing them could be considered you're you're having a meeting as a rule I tend to just reply instead of reply to all

which is But we learned that blind copy is better because not everyone looks at that when they hit it. We've we've had that happen. Um, and just so you know, the agenda has to identify the topic. And so you'll see there there's usually a description of what you're doing and and that's necessary. Um, oh, important on this on this slide. You can discuss other topics and I clearly don't recommend this, but I understand where in your shoes sitting there public meeting, public person bringing something up and you're saying, "Ah, you know, let's just hear from them." That's okay. Not recommended, but okay. So, it doesn't violate the law as long as you take no action on it. We will have staff investigate this and put this on a proper agenda later would be the best response. We can't take action. We can't make a decision. But okay, tell us what you want us to tell. Yeah, that happens. And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, written minutes. I won't bore you with this, but it's good to know it because to let people know the written minutes are the official record. So, when you approve those, you're doing something very important for us. you're creating an official formal record that could end up in court somewhere. And so that's why we ask you to review them in advance. Um, think about, you know, make sure mostly make sure your comments are correct because you you'll remember your comments the best. But if also you you read something and I don't think so and so said that, bring that up. Okay. I found the minutes well done here. I'm not even sure who does them, but I was just very pleased with how they capture my Sometimes they I sound better in the minutes. Very well done. Maria, you do the minutes, right? Yeah. Yeah, they're they're well done. Um I agree. And and

those are posted and those are available for the public and we do refer to those on a regular basis as attorneys to go back and figure out what happened and why. Recordings. There's also recordings. you know that or at least you should know that. Um, be very careful. You know, in in open meetings, everything's recorded and um, we joke about it, but it's it's for real. It's just be careful. Close means any person who present information must provide a copy. Is that Do we do pretty good on that? We do. We do. Um, I think we could do better. You know, the county commission even struggles with this. When someone shows up here and they start reading from something or handing something out, we want a copy. That's to recreate what happened in this meeting when a judge is looking at that 10 years down the road and and reviewing your decision. We have to be able to see everything you you had before you. Okay? And that's why they can't give us anything after. We don't want anything after. If it if you've already voted and you didn't have that information, it doesn't matter. So, if somebody comes to the meeting and they approach us and start handing us things and they give you a copy, is it appropriate for them to provide that at that time or should it have been provided earlier so that the public in attendance would also have that information? Um, I think it's most important that you have it and that we have a copy for the record. Um, the public is not always going to see what's presented in these meetings. Now, they can get it after, okay? But it's not as important that the public know everything that you see before you make a decision. What's important is that you have it and that we have it in the record. Okay? Because whatever they do with it isn't ever going to be challenged in court. If so, if they get

up and say, "Well, you know, we did a lab test and it was 46% something something, we need a copy of that." Should a copy of that, especially if they've got it in their hand. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're going to rely on it at all. I mean, if if if it's just talk, you know, we hear a lot of just talk. People sometimes just need to vent to you and you do us a great public service by letting them do that. Um sometimes that's all they need. But if it's something you're interested, I remember like some tests on bio something or other. Uhhuh. That was starting to get important. And if you were lying on it, I would want those copies in the record. Yes. And would want to actually see that, not just have it presented as a comment. Yeah. Just not, you know, you don't, you don't know if they've read it, right? We always think it's important that there's an applicant involved, but the applicant gets a copy of that, too. Definitely due process. So if they start bringing information like that, is it better for us to continue the item so that we have all that information in hand and you have a copy prior to a deliberation on that information? There is nothing wrong with that. Now some things are timesensitive and you have to balance am I going to make them wait and you could even say if you give that to me I'm going to move for a continuence because I think this is really important information but I think the applicant needs to look at it. I think I need to digest it. I think staff needs to look at it and then we might do a continuence. It's fair to warn people about that. You you have to be comfortable with your decision, but sometimes that's what they want. You to be not comfortable and and uninformed. They they want you to continue because they they stall they they think that stalling it prevents it and that's why you're balancing. And if it's timesensitive and you feel like they've had time, you say, "I don't want to see that. I don't want to accept that." You have the right to do that, too. Okay? Because if anyone were serious about

getting things in front of you, they would come long before your meeting. Okay. Either maybe in time for the packet. I'm just thinking from last meeting, uh, the mayor of Fairfield came up and had a bunch of pictures to show us and that was kind of last minute. It was didn't didn't, you know, cause a huge problem, but that potentially could have. Absolutely. Because the continuum and then the license would have expired and all that. Yep. Well, in that in that case, you might decide we're going to go ahead. You had time to get this to me. You guys knew that this was noticed up and so you just you just have to decide what's the fair thing to do. You're you really sit like a judge. And I seem to recall her saying that she had only found out about it like the day before or something like that. So, not sure about that. Not sure about that. But I do think it's important to remember though that you know I mean we live in a capitalist society that you you stall a project a month and that can be tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands and if you if you push it past a building season then it can be six months um you know for you know because asphalt has to be laid at 55 and above you know and so there it is that balance that you have to find out. We'll try as staff to kind of help because certain applications before you are administrative and some of these things aren't shouldn't really be considered and other things maybe there is more difference and so we'll kind of be there to help distinguish that. So you know if you're doing a conditional use and this is something that doesn't really apply to standards and requirements then it's something that you know you can just say well that doesn't really apply and shouldn't be considered. we we can kind of help filter that closed meetings. Um I don't see you guys closing here. Here are the here are the permissible closed meetings. I don't really I looked

through these today. I was like I don't see you ever doing this. Um, however, you need to know about that that there are legitimate closed meetings where um, if you come, if you ever come to a county commission meeting, you might see one um, where they have to vote, close it, remove every everyone from the room, it's closed meeting, and then they come out of the closed meeting to to actually do the business. So, if you're ever going to take final action, they'll come out of the closed meeting and actually do the final action. But, um, just important to know, um, you know, if someone questions you about closed meetings, Yeah. They're they're allowed by law. Um but we haven't we we don't have those. And you can't take action in those. You cannot take action in the closing meeting. Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's the catch. Yeah. You can close and have your discussions, but you can't do anything in that closed meeting. Um more requirements for closed meetings. Um again, I just don't think those are really important for you guys. I'm glad you don't have closed meetings. Um, they're not fun. Um, they usually involve things that aren't enjoyable and those are the ones that end up getting litigated. Maybe that's what I'm trying to get at why they're not really that great. Emergency meetings do happen. I guess I could see this happening like especially during a COVID type situation. Um the county does have a policy for clo for for an emergency meeting. Um we would do our best to avoid that because you don't need the hassle. Okay. So if there's really something that that critical and we couldn't meet, you know, there's an earthquake or something or you know this building shut. Well, we did have that this electrical shorted out our building one day and if that had happened on a Tuesday and the police and the fire wouldn't let us in here the rest of the day, we would have had maybe an emergency meeting there. I'm not saying we would, but we would definitely look

at it and it's possible it happens. Um, we also have a policy for electronic meetings, having people join. Um, still don't recommend those. Um, this is the best this is the best way to do an open meeting. you're sitting here facing these people, there would be people here. You know what I mean? Um, open meeting violations. Just quickly, it is a class B misdemeanor, so take it seriously. Um, especially if someone's doing a predetermined action, you know, trying to figure out a vote beforehand. Um, speak up. Um, or just get out of it. Um, the court can void actions that are in violation, award costs and attorneys fees, which comes to the county. So we pay that asking you to be careful. So we don't pay that. Um we can cure violations which can be done. You know if if there's something happens and it wasn't done correctly we can call another meeting and cure it. So there is that benefit. And then um anyone can enforce OPMA which is probably a good thing. Private we call private attorney general actions they just they just or they're watching us and and policing it. Um, fail common ones, failure to pro provide notice. That's not on you. Don't worry about it. Closed meetings. Two of those are closed meetings because a lot of the litigation is on closed meetings. Don't worry about that and or taking action. Yours is probably going to be um predetermined actions. Okay? So, just be careful of that. Any questions? Open meeting. So, what would happen if we were we're here? We're in a meeting and the fire system gets tripped. Sprinklers start happening. We have to leave the building. But what's on the agenda? We still have some business that was announced was to be taken care of. Can we move the location? Um, that's never happened to me.

[Music] Um, first of all, we would get out of here and probably adjourn. Um, pow-wow. decide if we should renotice it up. Um, that would probably be my preference. Reotice it. We need 24 hours notice. We meet somewhere else. You know, it's on Tuesday. We meet on Thursday or Friday. Um, I would do everything I could. I would wait until the next month for everything that could simply continue it till the next month. Anything that had to be timesensitive, renotice it up would be my my reaction to that because then we give people chance to be here in another location where they can address you directly and do it right. Okay, good. Okay, we we got I I got to hurry because I don't want to lose you guys. Okay, so here's what Oh, sorry. Here's something we put together thinking it would be helpful to you, but it's also helpful to us to help you um do your job. Um we've noticed that we have neglected to really talk about your duties and what you're doing. Um and we apologize for that. Okay. Um we do this all the time. So for us it's just second nature and we sometimes forget that not everyone is in this world. So let's just go through here. This is something you take with you. Um we can talk about it again. Um we can um you know go into more detail as much as you want. Okay. As as much as you have time for. Um, so this is just a general script that we've kind of taken from other notes, other things we've done and just trying to think through how it's best for you to run a meeting. So it's just it's very common sensical and and

flows and it's logical. Okay. So we have provided actual language here so that heaven forbid we don't have a chair. We don't have a vice chair. We don't have a Karen who's like a pro at this cuz she's done it. So you know you're stuck here as one of the four members and you've never run a meeting. I think you could do it from this. Okay. Mhm. So trying to put something in your hands so you there is no stress about this job. Okay. You would simply have this. We will always have this available. You don't have to keep your copy, but we would just give it to you. Say, "Hey, go go go go to go to town." Cuz it's really one through and a whole meeting. Um, you calling the meeting to order. You've seen your chairs do that. Here's something a little different. Announce. We We would like you to announce this. Please sign the attendance role located by the door if you desire to speak to the commission tonight. And please indicate on the attendance role which agenda item you wish to speak about. There was a resolution done by your board back in 2013 requiring public comment that is not required by state law. Now it's honorable. I think it's okay. But what it does, and by the way, you can always change that resolution. We are bound by it. But you can change it anytime you want. You want to do a new resolution, we'll do a new resolution. But here's what it says. The public can comment on anything on your agenda. Now, that can be a problem if it's a contentious item and public comment cannot be used in your decision, which we will get to. So, you're opening yourself up to a little time commitment by listening to everyone who wants to speak and pop possibly wasting your time

because if they bring up things that are not relevant and cannot be considered, you we'll be looking at you to say disregard. But as you've seen, sometimes it helps the process if you let people talk. Agree. Even though they can't change things, just the fact that they were able to talk to you. You had one lady stand up and say that thank you for just listening to us. You know, we realize you couldn't do anything, but the fact that you listen to us, it made it okay. So, builds trust in trust in government. So, that's why we want you to announce that because it's actually in our resolution. We're required to take public comment on everything, not just public hearings. There's a difference and we'll talk about that. That that that that resolution was by the planning commission. It was by the planning commission. Yeah. Which you can do. You have the authority to do. So when the when the chairman sees Bryce going like this, does that mean he can Yes. Yes. We will get to that there. Oh, okay. The the chair should have their own class unfortunately because there's things the chair can and should be doing that you just kind of need to experience. I have a question or feedback really. I we we've discussed the pos the implications of that resolution. Um with that resolution in place, I think it would be helpful if we had two sheets there. One that just said attendance and one that said request to speak. So when you're looking down that list, you're not trying to look at both the column saying, "Oh, did you want to talk and what did you want to talk on?" That's confusing, isn't it? It can be. And I think for the public, it's a little bit confusing, too. where they're not sure what that they're they're actually putting their name to. Okay. That I think would be helpful. We as actually used to do that and we found people weren't sign and who it was it was hard but we'll we'll look at some different different versions for sure. Well, do we have to have an attendance role? I mean,

they're not part of the meeting, so we don't need to have recorded that they were here, right? Good question. Yeah, that is that may be a remnant of an old older law. We look into that. Yeah, this is not something I've seen elsewhere. You're right. It's not required by law. Um, we could call it a speaker role or a comment role or something like that. Request to speak. Yeah. Request to speak role. Just to be really clear what it what it is. And they don't feel like they have to put down that they were here just to be here. Well, as you know, these days someone may object to that. I don't want to go on the record of being here. Exactly. Well, my when I came in for the first time, I hadn't officially been sworn in or anything, but I wanted to attend and just So, you signed that. I came in, but I was like, I don't know about signing. I'm not pure to public comments, so I just sat down. Okay, good point. Um, that might be worth doing because we've noticed that you guys struggle with that. Yeah. In these contentious ones, who wanted to speak and on what. We'll work on that. Um, of course, approval of minutes. I told I told you how important those are. So, we just follow that. It should always be the first thing you do. Unfortunately, there are some boards that have to meet to approve minutes because they don't meet enough and we don't have official minutes. There's no record. And so, we will we will convene boards just to approve minutes. It's it's sad. It wastes time, but it has to be done. And luckily, you guys have enough business you don't have to do that. Now on number four, not everything needs a public meeting. Okay? Public meeting or public hearings are required by statute. It's not something we made up. It's not a part of a resolution. It is state law. But not everything needs one. And they're good to put it on the agenda. It's there in bold. You know, you're having a public hearing. Four is there. If there is something on your agenda,

you need to open that public hearing. And you guys know how to do that. And then we gave you a step by step on agenda items. And we hope this is a this logically it flows. Okay. Um every item invite a staff to present it. That seems to work really well. They kind of tee it up for you. You know, give you the issues and and the information and then ask them questions. They are there to serve you. Ask your questions while you've got them there. Okay? you'll have another chance to, but but ask them questions. Then the applicant speak. We need the applicant to have their own time before the public really starts attacking. And so give them that time and then ask them questions. I think you need to put them on the hot seat. If there's something you need to know, you let them you you ask the question. And then of course the public comment, like I said, the resolution and we can get that into your hands, too. You you probably ought to have that. Those are your rules that you made. Well, your board made before you. They're li they're they're actually very specific. Three minutes initial, two minutes rebuttal. You can't share your time with others. Um you have to split it between agenda items. It's very specific. I didn't do all of those here because I I didn't you guys seem to me to be a board that's not going to nitpick and and you know, well, you spoke for two minutes on this, you only get a minute here. You'll probably let them go two minutes. And I don't have a problem with that. So, I didn't put all of them, but you do have more rules. We put the most important ones here. Um, such as don't repeat things. You can simply indicate that you agree with previous comments. And I think this is good script. You just read it to them. Um, we will we only receive comments and do not answer questions. I think that's critical to tell people because they think that you are on the hot seat and they can ask you questions and they cannot. Now, you can answer them if you

choose to. We do not recommend that ever. Okay. It's just not a good idea because even though you might know the answer, if you don't have all the informations, that answer could hurt the board, the county, and just you don't need to answer questions. Okay. And then it goes in order. Your resolution says that I I threw an F because as you have pointed out, not everyone understands the role. They come here expecting to speak and we don't call on them. Just ask. Is there anyone else? Yeah. You said we shouldn't answer their questions. What What about us asking them questions? Not a problem. Okay. Not a problem. I have a question. Yeah. Um going to public comment. So, if if if we can't really um be swayed by public comment um in making a decision, then what's the point in public comment? Um like I said, that was by resolution. It's not required by state law. Um I was not the attorney involved in that resolution. I don't agree with it. I may not have done it. I may have advised against it, but we're kind of stuck with it right now. Now, the way the county commission handles it in my mind works better. They actually have on their agenda right after other business and before adjourn public comment period. Now, they've already done their business, so maybe it doesn't matter. But we found that if you give people a chance to say, "Hey, that was a stupid decision. You didn't you didn't listen to anyone. You didn't do it right." It gives them a chance to do that, but it doesn't affect the actual decision up in the agenda because we've already handled that

business. I like that approach, but I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this approach. This is the way the resolution is written. That's why we gave you the script this way. Until it's changed, we feel obligated to follow that. But you're right, Lorraine. It it's risky because I can tell you if it's an administrative decision and there's a lot of public comment before you vote, it's very easy for a plaintiff's attorney to tell a judge because this will happen years later. Play the recording, judge, you can't tell me that those commission members didn't consider those public comments which had nothing to do with that decision. and when they got their decision wrong, that's why they did it and you need to reverse it and give us our permit. I think they're gonna I think they can win that. I if I were a pl attorney, I like that. So So in the scenario with the the a couple months ago with the bio bioolids issue and um and you had the person from BYU come in and they had, you know, I I thought they introduced some interesting data. Um, it seemed like it was evidence-based. I'm not supposed to consider that in my decision. Maybe not. Yeah, you have to look at the conditional use permit if it's going to a condition. If it's something that that legally you can look at, yeah, you would. But I was biting my lip over here. I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is getting really uncomfortable for me." It it kind of depends. There there were there was a a matter that was a public hearing. I mean, we were talking about a text amendment and so public that's something different. Public hearing you could completely consider these type of public. You have to. Yeah. Okay. So, so now that's what I'm getting confused with. So, there's the public comments versus public hearing. Yes. So, the public hearing I

can take that information back and then make a decision. Okay. So, that's what I'm getting because I'm like, what do you mean? Yeah. The difference is if it's an administrative versus a legislative and even on the public comment there's there's certain factual things that can be brought out through those public comments that say hey you got to be this distance from someone in your ne property neighbor next door and you're like no they property lines here you know there could be some factual things that could be incorporated as part of a condition like Dale said but I think best best practices on an administrative decision would be no public comment until after the after the the agenda the the action items done like the county commission. So maybe somebody can prepare does somebody want to prepare different resolution? So we do backwards of what we did last time. We do backwards of what we did last time. Instead of having two hours of public comment and then making a decision, we would have made the decision and then had all that feedback from the Unless it's a public hearing. It wasn't a public hearing. I do. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I I I don't know why the resolution was written that way. I can't explain it to you. I wasn't here. I haven't talked to anyone that was here. Um it's just the way they decided to do it. So, it seems like you might be suggesting that we have an opt. I mean, because Well, because I feel like even since I've been doing this for like a year and a half or something that I feel like um and and it makes sense that it's gotten less simple. Yes. And I can't imagine it getting we going the other way with um you know and at some point you you kind of think well this is not what I mean you know what I mean like at some point you feel like that's kind of like that what you're talking about with the public hearing that's it seems like it just makes the process um it would frustrate me personally if I felt like you know oh I'm going to speak but it really doesn't matter right I I that would make me mad if I was in the

audience and like I'm going say my piece, but it doesn't matter. And which we had with the permanent extension on Snowbird there, there was very little latitude there, right? Very little discretion. We had lots of public comments, right? And was not required. I think we handled it well. I think we I think we let people know upfront about this is what's you if you have that many people there that came to speak even after their instructions of what they what can and can't be contemplated and then you say well we're going to decide first then we're going to let you talk that that wouldn't have gone over well and you know I just my experience I mean you know when I served in the legislature you know my experience though is when the the hardest feelings is when the speaker cut uh debate short. So even if you got if if if you had strong feelings about a bill, as long as you got to speak, even if you lost it, it was much less bitter than if um you know, and a lot of times those decisions are predetermined. You're going to lose anyway. I mean, but if you have a right to speak, it just and I think that's that's kind of the sense. I mean, it did go along, but I think that's how some of the people did feel. Um I think that's where Oh, sorry. No, I think that's where, you know, the chair has to play that role of of keeping him on task. Can can uh can I request that resolution be sent out by blind carbon copy? Absolutely. To us. I mean, I haven't I don't think I've seen this resolution and the verbiage any of them really. We don't know what our roles are. That's our fault. I apologize for that. Yeah, if you could send that. I think that'd be good. Just put an ad hoc committee. Oh, except for each of you got a copy when you were appointed as a planning commissioner. So, oh, it is in your email, but I we understand probably didn't look at all that, but but we should be bringing these out and training on them on a regular basis. So

just also with public comment, I think B or both Bryce and Dale are just being clear that if you accept public comment, just make sure that it is specific to that and that if it is a conditional use or administrative decision that it's any decision you make or get influenced by is is ex is acceptable to that conditional use. It can't be just somebody making comment and expecting you to make take action on something that doesn't p isn't gerine to that specific item and you have the ability to make um take some action on that. And if you're wondering, you ask. We serve you, okay? We are your staff. All you have to do is say, well, can we even consider that or where is that in the code? We will help you do that. Okay? You don't have to do that on your own. Make that one. Go ahead. Mhm. So, what steps we take as um you know um commission to maybe just revisit that resolution that was you know what's put it in your hands and you guys can we can have a yeah you can put it on agenda. We could have a work discussion on it. You know, I mean I think that's worth I mean like I said I I do think I I'm going to get frustrated if I think I'm driving all the way from wherever Timbuktu and I'm gonna have a say when it didn't matter. I I don't I think that's a little it's it's I don't know. It's not I don't disagree with you. I just think a lot of integrity there. It seems like we ought to read it and just see if there's something on there that is so I don't know. I don't mind having that, you know, let's put that out there to just revisit that. Can we put that on the agenda, too? Can we ask for that to be in the other business for next meeting? Absolutely. Just to discuss it. We don't have to decide anything. We just just bring it up as a discussion item. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Okay, we'll get that in your hands. Um, I added G just because it seems like it's always

not clear when you can discuss. Yeah, but we really want to have a session, a a particular time in your process where there's that discussion because that is really good before you make a decision. Sometimes I mean Robert's rules, there's a motion and then it's the discussion that takes all the time. Sure. before you can call for the vote, right? I mean, basically that and generally around here, we do all the discussion, then we call for a motion, right? And by that point, we're all just tired of the topic, I guess, or something, but there's no discussion usually after. But that's usually where there's discussion, right? Well, and and and Bryce is right. I just found my copy of the rules and we follow Rosenbergs. What is Rosenberg? Yeah, the the board decided that we should do Rosenberg's rules. We'll train on that. Okay. Because they're a little different than Robert. Uh but by and large the same. But yeah, we we follow a different group of rules, parliamentary rules. Is that And was that determined by the county or uh or this group or is that the county the way the county does it? Oh yeah, it is. That's in county code. It is in county code. Yeah. So that's county commission, but you could re recommend a change. Yeah. But since nobody knows who Rosenberg is. Yeah, I didn't until I got here, but it it it's fairly well established. They come out of California. Um, they're a little bit simplified. I know California, that's a bad word. Um, but it seems like they did a good job. Um, that when we go to our conferences, they'll sometimes debate Roberts and Rosenbergs. Anyway, we will train on that and and see if you like them. Um, sometimes, as chairs know, you have to invite a motion. Everyone's kind of sitting around. Sometimes you have to say that, hey, when someone's ready, we'll we'll entertain a motion. The vote. Um, so here's something new that we thought we'd throw out to you guys and make sure you're okay.

Are you guys having a close meeting right there? Wow. See, that works. Um, you didn't notice this, but I took the pledge out. Now, there's no law that says you have to have a pledge. There's actually no rule that we could find that says you have a pledge. You decide whether you have a pledge, but since it's not in the resolution of your rules and order, I took it out. I think it's on been on the agenda because it's always been on the agenda and it seems like a lot of commissions do it. But again, that's for you to decide. And that's why I took it out. I I was supposed to tell you that. I forgot um because it's not in your resolution. So, when you take a vote on a motion, you can continue to do roll call if you like. You don't have to. Here's here's where that rule comes from. The minutes have to identify how each individual voted. Someone listening to a recording and doing minutes needs to know who voted for what. So, the way the county commission does it, which I think is what I'm used to, is if it's unanimous, we don't roll call because we know everyone voted yes. But if you hear a nay, then you do a roll call so that the the the record is clear. Who are that? Maybe there were three nays. Who were they? So then you do a roll call. So that might help you. I think we got I think we were instructed to do it that way. you were instructed, but I think it was just a misinterpretation of what you're required to do. Electronic meetings, if you're all on a phone or laptop and we're sitting here recording, then you have to do roll calls. So, so does it make sense? So, just absolutely all all in favor I if if it's unanimous, if there's no nays, yeah, if you're good, we don't need to do a roll call. Individual vote. If you say any opposed and there are no nays, you don't need to. You should be asking if there's any

opposed, right? You always ask if there's any oppos. You'll see that. All in favor, listen. I'll oppose. Okay. Um then of course I follow up with and use that same procedure on every item. Okay? I know it's a lot, but you really need to cover everything for each action item. Then close your hearings. We always close hearings at the end um when we're done with them. The other business I added there, just something to trigger your minds in in [Music] in Robert's rules, you could say, I don't know about this this Rosen, what is it? Rosenberg. Rosenberg. Uh, you could say [Music] uh we we will close the public hearing without objection. You you could say something like without if there's no objection, we'll close the public hearing. Is there any objection? Hearing none. The m the public hearing is closed. I think you could do that. You could do something like that. I mean, where it's it's like everyone knows we're going to all vote yay anyways. So, unless there's an objection, it's just adopt the meeting going. Yeah. So, that's maybe another way to do that one. It is. It is. This is another way to say it. Um, other business I included there just that note. Just that note that if it's business you're going to do something about, it better be on the agenda and it better be noticed. Other business such as what we're doing now doesn't have to be noticed. It doesn't have to be on the agenda because it's not formal action. You're not doing anything that your board would normally do. You're just receiving information. We will usually take over for the other business because it's usually something that you're there's no formal action. It's usually us doing whatever we need to do with you. Um sometimes we had that discussion about emails and then of course chair you just close meetings very easy. Um the next page is a summary of some of your rules in your resolution. Okay there are more um just reminding you

what what a quorum of a seven body quorum is a your quorum is for alternates. There's rules on alternates. Um um you can see that there. They only act if there's fewer than seven. We follow Rosenbergs, which we will train on. Don't worry about that. Um, you guys pretty much follow them. Anyway, the difference between public comment and public hearing is public comment is not required by law and can just be done at the end or with each agenda item. Public hearings are required by law and those objections do go to the county commission. So, they are very important when you when you hold a public hearing and you take comment. Um the the county commission is supposed to receive those and they do through through the the minutes. Okay. Um and public hearings is really a free-for-all. That's what they're designed to do. Anything and anything that would come before us for this before we take this action. Now is your time. Forever, you know, speak now or forever. Hold your peace. Group comment. People can combine. We saw that a little bit. um uh instead of 3 minutes, you know, you get a really a real talker. They want seven. So, they'll get their buddies to to join a group. Comment limits. There are limits on those. The time uh we try to stay those. You you guys have policed that pretty good. Um rebuttal comments. I haven't seen people do rebuttals very much. What are what are what's the definition of a rebuttal? A rebuttal is disagree. You take your three minutes. Everyone gets their three minutes initially and then you get two minutes to come back and respond to anything anyone else said. I haven't seen anyone do it, but they could. They'll get two more minutes. Really? So that so that is actually Yeah, because I would have thought they didn't have a right, but they do have a right. A two-minute right. We have had a few people who have done that where they've come up, they've said something and then 10 other people say something and say, "Can I add something?" Yeah. Or they just shout it from back there. But so what you should do is you say, "Wait for your rebuttal. Finish all the

initial comments and then start at the top rebuttals." That's the way it should go. Let's keep that a secret. Yes. Keep your bubbles. So much for the open open meeting stuff we've had. And that's something we can address through a new resolution. We can keeping order. This is where the chair comes in. Um chairs actually do have a lot of authority and we we need that. Um you need to be able to cut people off. You need to be able to stop repeats repeat information and you need to stop them when they're over time. And we have a good deputy and if we ever need that, we'll use it. People need to observe your rules and and be respectful. I think if if we could if we had a way of watching a timer or and even something that would show up here. Is it does it do we have those come up when we have? So, it's right here. I don't know if you can see it. This little black box. I can't see it from here, but And you might It's usually turned. Yeah, it's usually right there. So, But it's bright red. It's just not plugged in. Yep. But I mean like when we are taking calm especially on a noise when it gets to zero seemed like in our last meeting when we had lots of and I might propose the possibility of having two one that faces us just because I don't know I mean it's a little disruptive to be Oo. Um, you know, like they know our attention's there. We're just sort of like, when are you going to be done? I guess if the timer goes off. Yeah, it is. If it has a buzzer, then we could hear it and only the chair needs to be watching it. Everybody else can focus on the speaker. Might be nice. The chair. I was thinking if you could get one on

the screen here, they could then see up there would be courts, too. Nice. But anyways, I focus this way and I want to see like what they're saying and I don't want to be distracted looking that way and I know obviously I'm not sure but like still I think still that I think if we can use it it would be good though Maria. So if we know we're going to have a lot of comment we did. Okay. Yeah. Good. You might just pass that on Marie to the commission just say hey can we put another monitor up here for the timer that they might actually want it too commission. Yes. bring it up. And that one's old. So, she's trying to It's very old. She's trying to talk them into maybe getting some new system, but that doesn't sound like it's going to be very favorable right now. It might be if they hear the planning commission wants it. Awesome. Let's find out how much it costs first. I can't imagine that's going to be a lot of money, honestly. put it in my I can't imagine honestly like really this is theirs. This is their chambers. Oh, that doesn't seem like that's going to be like I mean you could also get an app that you can display on the screens. Good. That way everybody can see it pretty well. It could do that. Look into it. Um written materials must be submitted before your vote and abstensions. We don't see that very much. Thank you very much. You can appreciate that. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it. We don't like it. But there you guys have raised conflicts before and it's necessary to to abain and leave and leave the leave the board there. If we have four and one abstains on an item that doesn't we continue the job. Yeah. Got it. Okay. Last I promise this is it. Just a smattering of some of the law that usually comes up. Um, number one, the

recommendation standard. That's for legislation that comes out of ordinance. Um, I think it's very valuable. Um, they they just want you to consider when you're recommending legislation, make sure it conforms to the general plan, of course, which is our guiding document. Always in the best interest, health, safety, and welfare. Everything we do is. And then more fully carry out the the or the the land use ordinances. So good reminder as as you're looking at something legislative which which you can consider public comment and public clamor so you know you have a lot of discretion there. These sometimes give you a s well you know what I like what you're saying sir but it it doesn't conform with the general plan. It's going in fact we had one I won't I won't bring it up but we had a recent one which had to do with housing which seemed to go away from the general plan's a focus and so it's okay for you to say I have to follow the general plan generally and so those those might be helpful is what I'm saying that's for legislative decisions text amendments new ordinances um consider those things those are an ordinance so they're required by law and um if we're ever challenged on it, we could say we followed those three things. Exparte contacts, you already learned about this the hard way. Um and truly the the the rule is this simple. If anyone approaches you outside of this meeting or outside of the official um channels, report it. Just report it immediately. We'll tell you what to do and how to handle it. um then you can never be caught off guard. If if some something happens on the way to your meeting, so you would didn't have time to report it, report it in this meeting. Like as soon as as soon as we get done with approving minutes, that should probably be chair, I have to disclose something. This happened to me.

Someone called me on my way here and they told me these things and it needs to be disclosed to the board. Okay, let me let me ask a question about that. Sorry. So I I sit on another board and one of those board members is the water master for American Fork Canyon. And so they were present during the reconstruction of Timber Fork. That was part of their job, you know, when they had that release of of uh contaminated water and stuff that was that was, you know, occurred during his watch. And so when we were at this board meeting at the it was after this other board meeting and he started talking about that and and and we had a brief discussion about the Snowbird uh extension. He was not affiliated with Snowbird at all. He wasn't participating here in the in the public hearing or anything like that. I did gather what I felt was pertinent information for me because I felt, you know, based on some of the comments that we had seen in the emails that there was going to be discussion about the the release of the contaminated water and stuff like that. How does that apply to the exparte contacts? It's probably something I would disclose. So, you know, I had this contact with a person who had this information. I'm disclosing it here. Disclosure will always be your cure. Will always be your safe harbor. No one can ever accuse you of doing something improper, illegal if you disclose it. Okay? So if you feel like at all it was relevant to something on your agenda and it would it it provided some inside information and possibly sway one way or the other. I would

disclose and that's at the beginning of the meeting or Yeah. So you you don't want to disclose that after we've taken action. That that would be too late. Um, we would probably it's never happened, but I can definitely see us backing things up and saying, "Well, we're we'll renotice this up." And when is he disclosing it? Like when what and this whole part process, when is he like coming to you guys before the meeting starts and whispering in your ear or Well, I would disclose it as soon as it happens. So, if you had this on like a Friday before, I'd be sending an email to Bryce and Marie saying, "Hey, this happened. I want I want this disclosed." And then we would make sure that's that's either disclosed to all the board before it's put on the agenda, whatever we have to do. Okay? We'll sanitize that and make sure it's okay. But I would report it immediately. If my my example was someone calls you on the way to your meeting, you don't have time to get it to us to to try and handle take care of this. I would just as soon as as soon as the as soon as the chair is done approving minutes before you start the agenda, I would say I have something to disclose. Um or you know as you're walking in before the meeting, grab one of us. Hey, what should I do? The the best thing you can do is let us know. We will do whatever we have to to make sure you're covered and we do things right. Now, what if I I mean, I'm I'm kind of a researchoriented person and so I want to see both sides of the story. So, what if I just if I'm doing research on a topic? Are you talking to people or just Google? Probably Google. Probably chat. probably deep research chat. This is an exparte contact, meaning a communication with someone. What this is trying to do is prevent people swaying you behind the scenes or coercing you or worse blackmailing or bribing you. That's what we're trying to get away from. That's

why these exparte contacts are not allowed. But I mean, how do you balance that with I mean, um, you know, I think a citizen has a right if they have an issue that's pretty strong. I mean, don't they have a right to um, you know, but it's supposed to bring it to this meeting? It's supposed to be at this meeting. That's exactly as soon as they start on that, you say, you know what, you need to come to our meeting or send us an email. You you really need to do it the right way because that all everybody gets the same information. Everybody's working off the same all of you the applicant staff so that everyone can react to this appropriately. That's that's that's the way I would handle it. Say this is good information. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, but you need to do this the right way. And either tell them when the meeting is or give them the email planning commissionount.gov of and it gets to everyone. But there's nothing wrong with us going out doing research, getting informed on a particular issue. That's just us doing some research and educating ourselves, right? With the applicant or something like that, then then definitely with the applicant, that's a violation. Definitely applicant or somebody that you know opposes it and it could be any of the opponents. Yes. So now what if it's a situation where um I I actually might know somebody um and maybe I haven't done business but my husband has done business with that person. Um do I need at that point step aside and not be part of the decision-m process? Now that's a conflict even though even though I feel like I can be unbiased. If you feel like you can be unbiased you're you're going to be okay. If you're concerned about it, you disclose it. Oh, okay. Or if it could be perceived as something that that would that we would if we found out about later think that you had a bias or an undue influence. Well, you don't know. I

mean, you really don't know. I mean, I I know one person used to be the kid's, you know, like Maple Mountain history teacher. He came in and like I knew him, you know, I saw him. Oh, hey, you know, we kind of met eyes. But I don't know. Is that something you you disclose? I voted. I voted against my former I know people. We'll do a we'll do a conflict specific training. Um but it's kind of a gut feel. You know, something pops up on the agenda and you start recognizing people or the place or you you know, heaven forbid you you're part of that company that's doing that. Yeah. You disclose. Like I said, disclosure is the key is is is how you keep yourself safe here. Um, no one can ever say you did something wrong if you disclosed it and everyone agreed you could go forward. And I think you did one once, Lorraine, where you we talked about it and I just said, "Hey, just step off." And you did. Yeah, I did. Safe. Always safe. Yeah. Yeah. And we're also careful about the reasons for your conflict. We're not necessarily going to disclose those to everyone. Okay. Because we don't want to give them any other additional information. So conflict is like bring to us. We'll we'll decide if it's, you know, really conflict. If if it's bothering you, it probably already is. Could be. Um, okay. Lastly, this came up in a meeting. That's why I put it here. You have two different jobs. One's legislative and one is administrative. And you want to, you really should be asking yourself that every time you have an agenda item. Am I legislative or am I administrative here? Because you have a different hat. and you have a different role and you have different obligations. So legislative, the easy one, the one we all love, you're making law, okay? Anything you do to create a rule or your resolution will be law. If you do a resolution on on

meeting procedures, whenever you're creating something, it's legislative and that the discretion is wide. Okay? Courts will rarely second guessess you. you would have to be way out in left field for a court to ever second guessess a legislative decision like completely off base. Um, if it's reasonably debatable that it advances the general interest, even if you know everyone disagrees with you, if you believe it's in the best interest of the county to pass this law, your decision will be upheld. Okay? So legislative decisions really don't bother any of us. I don't know that they're ever litigated, okay? Because you can consider all kinds of public opinion, clamor, protests, whatever. It's legislative. We're creating law and you need to hear from everyone and anything. It's the administrative decisions that get us in trouble. And and that's why it's good to identify that. Chris did a good job the other day of saying, "Hey, is this an administrative decision? Isn't our discretion fairly limited?" Exactly. And we're okay with you doing that on the record and putting us on the spot because that will help you. The county of commission does this all the time. Well, you know, Mr. Eric, do we really have any discretion on this decision today? And you know, if the law says no, I tell them no. They want that. Is there a way that we could put that on the agenda? Just say, "Hey, this is a legislative. This is administrative." Usually don't go that far. Okay. Is if it says public hearing, it's legislative. Oh, yeah. Definitely public hearing on that. Um, and so those those are where you enforce law, apply law, interpret law. Okay. You're acting kind of like a judge. And that's why your discretion is limited. You have to

follow the law. and when you don't follow laws when we get sued. So that's administrative decisions are important. Um the standards must be supported by substantial evidence in the record. Now that's staff's job. Okay? We're making sure that the the the application and all the information and everything. If there's not substantial evidence to support something, their staff report is going to say that. We do not recommend you do this because there's no evidence. But that will rarely happen. there will be evidence that just not going to get to you. Um, where this comes up is if you say something like, um, I don't like this. I don't want to approve this. Can I do that? That's a fair question. We're okay with you asking those questions. Those are hard questions. Um, if there is substantial, if the staff report's saying there's substantial evidence, um, you can question that. you can call them out on it. Say, "I I want to know about this part of this. Is there substantial evidence?" We can document that. But if you're trying if you're if you're thinking about denying something and there's substantial evidence, bring it up during that discussion. Let's talk about it because that's when we'll get in trouble because the court isn't necessarily going to care about your opinion. They're going to care about the evidence before you. And if you disregarded it and that applicant was really entitled to that permit or whatever it is, that's where we get in trouble. Um, conditional use permits, the case laws legion on litigation with conditional use permits. Sorry you guys got that job. I think you're the right people to do it. So, but it's a big job and you'll see that in the coming days.

Um, the standards is very clear. This is statutory, reasonable conditions, mitigating the the effects, and staff reports are your go-to. They'll outline it for you. Okay? Feel free to question, feel free to ask ask for information, but that's where your discretion starts to get limited. Okay? The denial, and we don't need to get into this right now, but we could actually do specific conditional use permit. um uh training if you want, but um you have to find some things in order to deny one and that will also be there for your staff report. Okay, for denial, you have to find these things. The anticipated detrimental effects cannot be substantially mitigated. This isn't just your feelings. This is this project is going to create this this effect on the surrounding property that we can't mitigate. meaning it it will cause harm in some way or you find there's a compelling counterveailing public interest that will be jeopardized. There's case law on that. Yeah. So with the the the snowbird extension, I noticed the staff recommendation was to approve it this time, but in five years, if they haven't figured it out, the idea is that we would deny it then, right? So what is the is it just that we've given them so much time they haven't moved on it that's enough to deny yes different legal standard for the extension it was substantial justice and what staff was telling you is at some point time or delay becomes an injustice okay that's what they were saying yeah perfect that's part of what we just approved today isn't it that they wouldn't get another extension because they already

had extensions. Yes. So, as we were going through that, we realized there was no cap. There really needs to be a cap on things. People can't just be come keep coming in here, you know, for 20 years saying they're going to do something. So, we put that in there. That's a hard cap. You don't have to worry about it now. It will as soon as that's passed, it will be law in Utah County. And they can't go beyond that. Makes decisions easier, I think. Yes, sir. Did you have something? I agree. Your your pen was up. I just didn't know. That's it. You've been here long enough. Unless you have questions, concerns, you know, digest all of that. We can we'll come back at another day. I would just add like with the snowbird thing. I mean, you did have COVID and that really dis did disrupt supply lines and so that so hopefully hopefully there's there's some you know there's some that's considered you know consideration and mitigating. We feel like they didn't bring that up enough. We feel like that was legitimate substantial justice. I mean it was a hiccup on everybody's life and everybody they didn't push on it a lot. Yeah, one of these guys brought up. I was like, "Yeah, absolutely. I would have been using that a lot." Well, and I'm just saying moving forward, you want to put a cap on it, but I I also think we should be able to use our discretion if there I mean, say, you know, like there's a lot happening right now with the possibilities of still getting really expensive and you know what? If you can't you can't afford, you know, you're going to wait for five years. So maybe hopefully there's not another pandemic. But we used their combined 30 40 years of experience to say here's kind of what experience tells us we would need in caps and tried to go out far enough that hopefully that would never happen. But we had to have a cap because we learned with Snowbird there's nothing in here saying they can't have it. So we have to

entertain it and go through this. We we the way it's it's built and it existed too is those concerns need to be raised by the applicant at the time of their approval. They're saying you know we rely on steel a lot and the market's really looking sketchy and so in rather than the three years the ordinance says we feel comfortable with seven and this is why then that then they still have that ability to get some more. So there is a little flexibility. And I think the fact that now that it's in law, they know that they can't file an extension. So they got to do they got to get moving on it or make a decision. So but theoretically though, doesn't it just stop you from more work though? Because if they got approved for the first conditional use, they can still go and apply, go through the whole process again, right? Yeah. You know, and they should theoretically be able to get that conditional use. Sure. Again. Absolutely. We we kind of stopped the county from having to spend extra time or you know because they they should be able to unless that commission was completely different than us uh they should be able to get that conditional use again. But it's a lot of work for Yeah, that's true. But also just realize that after eight years that that our ordinance may have changed, other things may have changed and that should should go back for another review if that's the case too sometimes. So surrounding properties have changed and maybe a new commission should look at it. Well, I applaud everybody here for the four people that were here and you guys for that. I mean, I was in DC watching it on YouTube and like I know but but you know, good good on you. You guys I call it a master class in how to run a meeting. A it was well done. Everyone involved, you all did great. Good job. Yeah. I mean you just come across like you really really want to get down to the truth and make the right decision. So good job. Okay. Okay. Chair I am done. Okay.

Proceed the floor to you. Thank you. Is there any any more comment from the commission? Seeing that as there's no other business the meeting has adjourned. Sorry.