City Council - Regular Meeting

Welcome everyone to Tuesday, May 12th. You've made it. We are at a work session. We are going to do roll call. I see everyone here. I see a large Peter Agave in the center of the screen like from the Wizard of Oz. Hello, Peter Agave. Um, and I assume Joan Kathy will be joining us in a little bit virtually as well. So, we are all here. Assuming Joan joins in a few minutes. We have a very special recognition. Make Terry just go stand in the middle. In the middle.

You have we wanted to recognize Terry. You want to come join us friends? We want to recognize Terry Kurpatre's 20 years of service to tongue water with the planning commission.

Oh, council member Kathy. Perfect timing. We just started our recognition of Kpatrick's 20 years of service to water. Terry, do you feel comfortable standing up there so I can give you a certificate and a gift card on the other side? That's correct. So, you go this way. I'll go this way.

Long as I get out of the water. Can I get I have a bias towards Terry. I adore this man. I knew him before I even was on the planning commission because I went to high school with his daughter and then room next to her at the University of Phoenix. So, I've known him and his wife as my father was going through a lot of health issues. She ran that grief group. Um, and so I attended that for many years to help me process. So Harry and I, I love the discussions on planning commission because of his thoughtful questions and I think we argue about the sign ordinance for a couple years.

No, but that's what I love, right? When you get commissioners to ask that question, that lived the experience and you don't take it personally, the whole goal is to better our community, right, that rural urban lifestyle. What do we really want? It's not just about today. It's about 20, 30, 40 years down the road. That's what Terry has contributed to, right? That thoughtful discussion of, oh, I can see that now, but what does that look like tomorrow? What does that look like for when we're not here? And Terry has always led the way like that. It still gives me goosebumps because his legacy is all over Tom Water. Literally all over Tom Water with all the decisions we made with planning as a discuss leading the way. I would love the space for you all to make Terry stand here and just say some nice things about him. I know Megan Sullivan served with Terry.

I would love to say a few words. I learned so much um serving on planning planning commission with you and very much appreciated your very thorough and thoughtful questions. Um I think that you being uh an arc connecting from 20 years to today and still being there is you know unparalleled. I don't think many jurisdictions get that gift. And so I think you've probably mentored whether you know it or not many many members of the planning commission over many many years um and contributed to really robust thinking about who we are as a city and what we're um trying to create and why we're trying to do the things that we do. So the critical thinking that you bring to that role and that just by being yourself you you know contribute to other people asking good questions. So, I learned so much and I'm grateful and the city is really a beneficiary of your dedicated service.

Terry, I got to serve with you on planning commission as well. And I remember a couple of times like I wanted to ask a question, but you beat me to it, but then I was like, I know what I'm doing. I was gonna ask. So, thank you. You definitely have been a mentor to me and you know it's just the short time that we were on the planning commission together. I really did learn a lot from you and you are very thoughtful and always forward thinking and so thank you for your dedication.

I think I think I'm the one council member that didn't serve on the plan commission before I got appointed. But sorry I'm older than you. Okay. Um, but I I would always prepare myself. I would look at the planning commission minutes and the notes and everything when we were having to hit some heavy stuff that would come through general government or come before us. I would always read the minutes to prepare myself for counsel because I wanted to just see what what you all thought about, you know, especially like you be to find out what your questions were and because they would and now it's a little harder because we don't get to see them written anymore. But um but seriously seek your uh your thoughts process and everything so it would help me prepare for the meetings and I really really appreciated your your questions and your thoughts. You have some fellow plan commissioners here. Would you all like to share a few words and then can we take a group photo with all of you and Terry?

Yeah. So, come on up and stand next to Terry and give him compliments.

Yes. And we should we should Terry. Yes.

I love it. Who's doing Kathy? Joan, I hope you heard that. Terry pointed to the screen to your photo on the screen, your your video, and said, "There's one of my mentors."

We've been around about the same length of time. I meant on the uh I didn't mean in this world. I meant uh I meant in service to someone. We didn't Everyone sat down. Did anyone else want to share some words about Terry? This is a once in a-lifetime opportunity to celebrate 20 years. Oh, that's not first. Angela.

Um, just Terry, thank you for your dedication to our community and this is an unpaid position. So coming for 20 years and just giving us your voice and your experience to shaping somewhere that is commendable. Thank you so much. That's commendable. Well, listen.

Your attention to detail has always thoroughly helped me in my work whenever I actually get to come to planning commission. Um, every time I can be absolutely sure that you read everything, found every typo, every potential contradiction, everything that I didn't think of because my brain isn't your brain and your brain and offense all to have at the table. So, thank you for your service. take back further than 20 years and air husband brought me into this room and we passed. Everybody knows that this is one of my little bits. But when we passed through the room out here, there was a model of the future swimming pool for the city of Tumblr sitting right in the lobby. That was Ralph Peggy. And uh we now have the hands of my children have the rack. We have no swimming pool.

So as long as I'm here, as long as I'm part of this group, you will always have to put up with me as a proponent swimming pool.

My daughter spent more time on a bus going to swim practice than she got. And that's still the case with Everra. That's not the solution. Yes. That we control. No.

No one paid you to say that. I I would just like as you know I've been here all about four months now just for your have dedication it's been 20 years giving back to our community is incredible. So, thank you for all your service, all your sacrifices you've made, your time, um, moving our community in the right direction. And you shouldn't hear these amazing people throwing at people. For them to say all these kind of words about you, that really speaks truly about the type of person you are and how much you care about our community. So, thank you very much. Appreciate it. I don't have any Peter Gabby anything you would like to add.

You are on and I think I can actually read your lips.

I I I don't think so other than uh I've uh I've always admired Terry. You know, it's just uh I used to wonder what on earth sometimes that you know, planning commission was thinking really that's what they and then he would he would have something clarifying to say or how you got there or something. And uh yeah, I I value him highly. And um so did I catch it? Is he leaving? No.

Okay. Okay. Oh, that was a good answer. Wow, that was all in unison. No. No. I'm glad you're not, Terry. I'll have a chance to give you a hug. You'll leave when we get a pool of water. Peter, any last words before we move on to the next item?

Sure. So, I don't know if I've met Terry or know who Terry is, but uh what I would say is uh 20 years sering commission is a very long time. I didn't serve on planning commission. I came straight to council. But I know u plan uh the planning commission all the stuff that you have to do haven't done the same thing for the state for 16 years that's a lot of work. So for that I say thank you for your service. Well said Peter. Thank you so much.

So, I only worked with Terry for 10 years and I echo everything that has been said. I want to emphasize the amount of terror questions for you to think on your feet. I think that is probably one of the things that I mostbody that level of detail level questions. I'm saying

other want to acknowledge that Terry um has been here now for two comprehensive and they are um absolutely foundational in terms of setting the tone for our community as you have seen. means not only one but now two and bringing that knowledge forward as council woman council member mentioned bringing that knowledge board is so and then the volume of work I think we had packets of overages

yes to back to back so the volume the sheer volume of work that this man has done in termsable and to note that he it out. If you do, can you come up closer so that Joan and Peter and anyone online? Um I just want to say that um um I'm now one of the oldesters too. Although I haven't been around all I have learned so much from Terry and uh again everybody has mentioned the commitment. It's there. It's really true. And if you ever Terry I don't know what we're in any case I u I I just so value your input and your thought process. remarkable very much. Okay, we're going to move on to Jeff Johnson who has traveled far to join us here in the hamlet of Twater to give us an update from the Olympic Region Clean Air Agency or as Joan calls it, ORCA.

All right. Well, thank you, Mayor. Thank you. Thank you, city council members. I really appreciate the uh the invitation to be with you tonight to talk a little bit about Orca. Always happy to talk about Orca. My name is, as uh mayor mentioned, my name is Jeff Johnston. I'm the executive director at Orca. Um also with me this evening are is Dan Nelson, Orca's communications manager, and Odell Hadley, um the AY's senior monitoring specialist and home water resident. Um yay. So, my plan this evening is to give a brief overview of Orca. And so, if you could bring up the slides, please.

And Jeeoff, would you like council to hold their questions or would you like this more discussion style? Great question. Um, I'm happy to uh please interrupt um as we go along um and we'll see. Again, if I'm drawing short on time, please let me know and I can try to speed things up. I've got probably about 20 minutes 15 20 minutes worth of slides or something and so then we can but let's have a discussion as we go along

works for me. Um so in addition to the slides I also have there's three handouts in particular that I think were distributed earlier that um I mean I've got copies here we can pass out or if you have great so Dan can help get those distributed. Thank you, Dan. We're also emailed out to council as well.

Yeah. So, while Dan is getting those out, I'll just say that um at Orca, we are not um public health experts, but we consider ourselves um a public health agency because the mission our mission is based on the state and the federal clean air acts, which are grounded in in health protection um and public health. and a couple minutes to get those around. Anybody else? Yep.

There's three. Way to go, Paul.

All right, one more. Few more. We're gonna see how complicated we can make this. All right. Thank you.

All right. Thanks, Dan.

All right. Well, um, another thing I just wanted to mention is that Orca is so our lane is what we call ambient air or outdoor air. We don't have authority to regulate indoor air and so we do work with local health jurisdictions, state health um regarding indoor health issues, but primarily we're talking about outdoor or ambient air. On to the next slide. Um a little bit about Orca. So we have a sixcount jurisdiction. So including Thirstston County, there are five other counties in western Washington. Um you see those up on the the screen. essentially the entire Olympic Peninsula um and on the west coast all the way down to the Columbia River. Um there are a little less than 600,000 people in our six counties um that cover an area of just over 8,000 square miles. So pretty big area. Um we have almost 700 businesses that are registered with Orca because of their emissions uh or potential emissions of air pollution. So I'll drill down into Tumbat's registered sources here in a few slides. Um, we are an agency of 18 people operating out of an office in West Olympia. So, actually I didn't drive that far. Um, but we're a small agency for a very large uh small agency, very large area. Uh, NIA Bay is four and a half five hours. So, when Odell drives all the way up to our monitoring site up above Nia Bay, that's what four and a half to five hours each way. So, big jurisdiction and so partnerships are critical. partnerships with local health jurisdictions, um with with um with fire agencies, um with tribes, um city and county permitting authorities, others. So, so, so drilling down a little bit more into Orca, um, we're a local government agency

responsible for enforcing local, state, and federal clean air regulations. We are one of seven local clean air agencies in Washington. Uh the state clean air act uh gives counties the authority to come together to form clean air agencies um either as a single county or in as combinations of counties. So in counties that haven't activated their authority and formed agencies like Orca, the Department of Ecology has direct authority to implement uh state and federal clean air act. So all counties in western Washington are covered by one of the of the local air agencies. And in eastern Washington, three counties, Benton, Yaka, and Spokane are part of local air agencies. The other counties are part of department of ecology. Um so local clean air agencies have um essentially four basic functions. Uh uh we permit or it's permitting and emission control for what we call stationary sources of air pollution. Um again these are businesses that emit air pollution. Importantly it does not include mobile sources or planes, trains and automobiles. So we do not regulate those sources. Those are regulated to some extent at the state level but primarily at the federal level. Um as I mentioned earlier we enforce state uh f local state and federal regulations uh air pollution regulations. uh we monitor air quality um and we educate the public um about air quality issues. All right. So now just wanted to talk a little bit about Orca's governance. Um so as I mentioned um the state clean air act which is RCW7A15 for those that want to follow along um provides the counties the authority to come together as I mentioned. Um, so the work and our authorities are spelled out pretty prescriptively in parts of of that chapter. Um, including the

composition of our boards. And so for count for agencies like Orca with six counties, um, spells out that our board consists of a a county commissioner from each of our six counties and a city council member from our three largest cities. And the three largest cities are Lacy, Olympia, and Tumbwater. So, Thirstston County is pretty highly represented on our board. Um, I will say, um, Council Member Kathy, you are the longest serving member on the ORCA board. Uh, she she joined our board in I believe it was September of 2016. So, um, I 2015, um, Twater became larger than Port Angeles and so took the board seat from Port Angeles. So, so I believe that council member Kathy is the only Tomwater uh council member that has served on the orca board. So, um let's see, the last thing I wanted to do before shifting gears and talking a little bit more about the actual work we do is to um just mention our budget and our finances. And so, we like the state operate on a July 1st through June 30th fiscal year. So, actually at our board meeting tomorrow, staff will be briefing the board on our draft fiscal year 2027 budget that starts on July 1st, um we went out for public comment at the end of last week and so we'll have a hearing at our June meeting. Um and coun and the board will adopt a budget. Um just the the second page of the um agency snapshot just has for our fiscal year 2026. You can just see the mix of revenue and expenses that that we have. Just wanted to let you know that again we're mostly fee funded but assessments are an important part. Um that's assessed through counties and cities. And so each as a resident of our six counties, residents pay um about a

dollar a year to Orca and service. So So when you mean residents, you mean homeowners or apartment dwellers? Um it's it's it's all it's all residents. So it's but all residents. We use the um the OFM population numbers. Okay. So that so it's build on on those OFM numbers. Any other questions before I move on? Yes. Um, are you a nonprofit?

We're we're a we're a special purpose district. So, we're a government agency. Um, so special purpose district is the type of government that we are. So, we're we're not a county, we're not a city, special purpose district like a port or a irrigation district or something along those lines. Okay. Understood. And um your PhD, are you a scientist? Uh my PhD is in chemistry. So yeah. Okay. Y I thought so. All right. Thank you.

Okay. Well, then moving along. Let's see. Okay. So, as I mentioned, um monitoring air quality is one of the functions of an of a um local clean air agency. Um, and as I mentioned, Odell Hadley is Orca's senior air monitoring specialist. So, if I get in trouble answering any of your questions, Odell is my lifeline here tonight.

Um, so the main pollutant of concern in Western Washington, actually all of Washington, is what we call PM2.5 or smoke particulate pollution. Um, it's called PM2.5. It's very small. That's the So the diameter of each particle is two and a half microns or smaller. And so just to give you so the the diameter of a human hair is between 50 and 70 microns. So again these are very small particles that and the reason why they have significant health impacts is because they can travel into our bloodstream and cause all kinds of uh all kinds of health issues. So that those that's the pollutant that we're most concerned about. What you see on the map here is so in those little kind of roundish uh I'm not sure how to describe that that shape but um but those are our regulatory monitors. We have those in each county. Um and then the squares are what are called are our our sensors um that we've gotten from Department of Ecology Sense and we're those are easier to operate, less expensive. We're working to get those rolled out um in each of our counties. Um, we've got we we've got one in Yelm and Thirsten County. We've got one in Awako down in Pacific County um in Forks and Clown County. And we're hoping to get one um in Grace Harbor and in Mason counties soon. But um there's lots of information available about air quality monitoring available on the web um on Orca's website. Um Department of Ecology has information available on their online. They also have an app. Um, EPA has a website and an app. What I like about the EPA site is that they show not just the regulatory monitors, but they show all of the crowdsourced sensors um that are out there. So, which are thousands and thousands of sources. So, if you were to bring up the fire.now.gov, you would see a much denser uh um assortment of monitors.

Yes, Peter has a question. Yes. So um the six counties that you show earlier on does not does not include PS King and Snowomish but this air monitoring quality map shows uh PS King and Snomish. What is the uh what is the difference? I'm sorry. I in the prior the regional where you have your counties, right? That didn't mention Pierce King. Okay. All right. Okay. Map. It identifies the counties.

Yes. So, so Orca um is so our counties are the counties that I showed on the previous map here. So, so um Pierce County, Kitap County, uh King, Snomish are part of the Puet Sound Clean Air Agency. So, they operate monitors in those counties. north of that in Watcom Scadget Island in San Juan. It's the Northwest Clean Air Agency. So there again, the the a state is broken out into these these these different agencies, but but on all of these maps, actually Orca's map, I think, just shows Orca's monitors, but but ecology and EPA have all of the regulatory and as I mentioned, EPA in particular has not just the regulatory monitors, but the sensors as well.

Thank you for that clarifying question, Peter. Um that yeah that makes a lot of sense. I was just wondering uh if you guys share the same modality in measuring air quality but it seems like that's what you're saying right? Same modality as Pierce Kingstonish. Is that the question? Yes. when you so so so so for example when you use your uh system to monitor the air quality I'm assuming that uh your system will also account for air quality within those within those three counties which are not part of your initial uh discussion right

is that is that making sense are you asking if they're sharing data between all the jurisdictions yes yeah basically Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. We work very closely with with other local air agencies, with with the state, uh with uh with EPA. Um so Odell and other monitoring folks are regularly in conversation. Um uh our our Thirsten County monitoring site is at the Mountain View Elementary School in Lacy, which is actually closer to ecology than it is to to Orca. And so they use that site as a test bed. There's lots of work that we do with with ecology. Some of our grants um uh come from department of ecology to operate some of the monitors. So yes, there's lots of close coordination uh with the state and and the feds. Thank you.

Yes.

Uh the department of ecology collects the data from the entire state. So all of our monitors feed into the department of ecology and they regularly check all of us to make sure we are consistently monitoring the same way. So all of our monitors are operated exactly the same as Puget Sound Clean Air and Spokane Clean Air anywhere in the state. the state is checking and and making sure that the data are of high quality and the same uh standard operating procedures and all of that data is collected by them and validated and then submitted to EPA's air quality system which so it kind of is just a multi level that goes up but it's all done the same way

gratitude great question Peter because there's no borders on uh nope there are not there are Yep. The boundaries that we have are very artificial.

Um okay. So then moving along um now talking a little bit about working with water businesses. So as I mentioned another one of the functions of clean air agencies is regulating sources of air pollution. So the state clean air act says that we need to register and periodically inspect these sources. So there are 65 of these sources in T water that range things like gas stations, uh auto body shops, coffee roasters, uh backup generators at warehouses, and other things. Um and if you're wondering where these are located in Twater, here's a map shows kind of where where where they are located in your in the city. Um, and in addition to our registration program, we also uh issue what are called notice of construction permits for businesses adding or modifying pieces of equipment that emit air pollution. So, another one of the handouts is this one, focus on when an air permit is required. So that is because it can be complicated but essentially um uh there are lots again lots of sources as I mentioned in our counties we have almost 700 of them you know that range from just a small auto body shop with a paint booth or a small coffee roaster up to very large pulp and paper mills big big sawmills other things that that that that are registered with us and require permits. One important point about notice of construction permits that we issue to businesses is that they are preconstruction permits. They're intended to be issued before a facility constructs. There's a variety of reasons for that. But if if but unfortunately too often we find about we find out about uh something that was installed and then we need to permit it after the fact and that that can be more expensive um and more complicated. So, we try to reach out to again work with cities and counties to make sure that you know your

permitting teams, your staff are alerting the businesses that come to you um to want to establish a business here that so that they're talking to saying, "Do you know that you need an Orca permit?" And just again making sure that that we have those communications as much as possible. Um, and I just wanted to mention that that Alyssa contacted me earlier this year letting me know that you all were working on on u some some code related to data centers and so was just wondering what um what ORCA might have in our regulations related to data centers. So put Alyssa in touch with our lead engineer had some communication and so that is exactly what we like to h to have happen. So thank you Alyssa for for for reaching out to uh to Orca. Okay. Um, now on to smoke. Um, so in addition to regulating bis working with businesses, we do a lot of other things to manage smoke. Um, and by smoke I mean, you know, smoke from indoor burning, from outdoor burning. And then of course, we've got wildfire events as well. So, wood smoke is um a large source of of of PM2.5 to our to our communities. Um, in the winter time it can be the the largest source. Of course, when people are using their their fireplaces, their their wood stoves, and the temperatures cold, trapping the air down next to the ground, that's when we get some of the highest concentrations. And so we have um uh so Orca has worked um uh we've operated a wood stove replacement and recycling program in Thirstston County since 2011. Um and this is we're able to do this because of money that the legislature provides um and grants from Department of Ecology. Um between 2011 and 2024, Orca removed 840 wood stoves and inserts um responsible for more than 65 tons per year of PM emissions. So

what did they replace them with? Well, there's a couple different programs. There's one is a recycle program which basically we give residents $500 for their old wood stove if they qualify. So then they can take that and maybe they'll buy another wood stove, maybe they'll do something else with it. But we have then a a replacement program that gives a higher level of incentive. I think it's and and Dan here manages that program. So if I need help, I'll get him to weigh in. But I think it's $750 for a for a plet stove, $1,000 for uh for a gas furnace, or I'm sorry, we 750 for the gas incentivizing gas and a,000 for pellet.

Okay. And and then $2,250 I think for an electric heat pump. So I guess my question is well we're trending in new development not having natural gas but then you can get a rebate or get money to replace the wood with natural gas. It's a lower level than so we dropped that from a,000 to 750 for an incentive for natural gas or propane. uh giving higher incentives for people to use the zero emission high efficiency heat pumps primarily as at 2200 and then pellet stoves which are very low emission $1,000.

I just think so growing up in some water when there were power outages we use that as our heat source but also as our food source to heat our food. So, knowing that we're, you know, every potential brown out coming, every everything going on the grid, why wouldn't why shouldn't I keep my wood fireplace when that has always been my backup for five decades in some water?

So, they can use the $500 the recycle award. So, basically $500, as Jeff said, to take an old uncertified wood stove and take it to a metal scraper. They can use that for a new wood stove. and doing an old uncertified wood stove to a modern high efficiency wood stove is a significant drop in in smoke emission in particular matter emission. So that's something we're allowing but again the grant we have is literally titled wood smoke reduction. So it the goal is to reduce the wood smoke emissions as much as possible within our community. Thank you.

So, we also do in so in addition to giving folks new devices, um we do a lot of education about how to burn cleanly because you know even a new wood stove you can put out a lot of smoke with it if you're burning wet wood if you've if you're if you're damping it down. So, that's something else that that we do a lot of.

Oh, yeah. I'm just wondering, and it could be not wood smoke, but say you have a neighbor who has used their property for a dumping ground, say, and you and maybe they've been notified by the city that they need to clean up. So then you notice, oh, there's all this burning. You don't know what they're burning. You're you're concerned because you don't want your neighborhood to catch on fire, but also the substances that might be going up in smoke. What should neighbors do if they notice this happening? Should they contact you?

Yes. Well, we do have um so we we manage a lot of outdoor burning complaints. So, right on our website, which the last slide is file a complaint. So, so yes, um and uh we do manage a lot of outdoor burn. And in fact, that's a nice uh kind of segue

to outdoor burning. Yes. So, I wasn't going to say a whole lot about outdoor burning because um other than recreational fires, which are essentially campfires, um outdoor burning um resident what residential burning or land clearing burning is not allowed in city limits or urban growth areas. Um but uh but we do we do manage a lot and we get a lot of complaints uh outdoor burning complaints. Um, and we we try to work we do issue notices of violation. Um, we do so when you file a complaint, it can be anonymous or it can be non-anmous. If it's a formal complaint, that's easier to build a CA to um to work a notice of violation with. Um, but that is something that our inspectors spend a lot of time on is managing outdoor burn complaints. And you have a followup to that. When you get those complaints, is it part of your process to connect with the jurisdiction that that complaint is in?

Yes. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. We work closely with counties and cities. Um because as as you mentioned, council member on Holtz, I mean, it's often a solid waste issue and so that's often what is being burned. And so, yes, we do work closely with um with cities and counties um on those issues because um yeah, and I think our our inspection team is part of a monthly call with Thirstston County. Um, and so yes,

remember when I first came on council, Orca came and spoke to us and so I didn't know that we couldn't have fire pit a little fire pit and I and I think I used it once and so I didn't know that we couldn't have them and so I guess the thing that I now we can now we can Yes. Yes, we can. But we can't burn wooden though. We changed that. wood because I had a little one. We changed the the regulations to allow that in cities now have wood. Yes. To have wood. So that was every time they come you learn something new. You're welcome. You're welcome.

Yes. You can have a recreational fire in Lacy Olympian's home water now for for about 10 for 15 years or so. Killing me here.

All right then. I will not go there. Well, and then the whole outdoor burning thing. my next door neighbor burned his like all his yard waste. And so I remember having to finally because I kept hoping maybe the fire department would show up because he was like gassing us out of the neighborhood and so but I had to go over and say something to him like I slapped him in the face. But anyway, so it's just hard when you have people because that's you know in the old days they had their burn right I remember having the burn barrel and you went out and burned your paper and your mom and that kind of thing. That's how you got rid of your garbage. Yes. So, yeah. So, now I can have a fire pit. Now you can have a fire pit. You can have a recreational fire.

That's a serious question. Yeah. I did because I thought we couldn't. It was a long time ago. I had it with my other house. Oh, you got to bring it back. Well, and then that was You can bring it back. You don't need to, but you can. My whole thing was at that time then they were still selling them in stores but then yes

it would imply then it's like when you see fireworks at Meer that we we don't allow fireworks in town but yet when you sell them at the stores that would imply that you're allowed to use them there and so if you sell fireplaces in our stores that you could use them but now apparently you can with the fireplaces but no on fireworks. So right. Okay. But now I could buy myself a Yep. There were a variety of reasons why we changed our regulations to allow them. But but but one of them is because it was was uh unclear and because people could buy them at Home Depot or Lowe's. So that's why it went to a

it was just one of the many reasons why it made sense to change our regulations to make Lacy Olympians home water consistent with the rest of our jurisdiction. That's pretty good. Great update for all of us. Thank you.

Okay, the last thing. Oh, actually, sorry, I hadn't yet. I've was jumping to asbestous before mentioning wildfires. Um, the third category. So, we've talked about in smoke from indoor fires or home heating, outdoor burning, um, such as recreational fires, but then also there's wildfires, which of course, so often the smoke comes from outside of our jurisdiction um, and we have no control over. Although last summer probably remember the Bear Gulch fire burning above Lake Kushman which was in our jurisdiction. I mean which was essentially a local fire and certainly Shelton Olympia got impacted some but um Hood Canal was was very bad air quality for for for well over for a couple months I think. Um but uh so there's not a lot we can do with woods with um with wild with wildfire smoke other than um just educating the public again making sure that folks know where they can get air quality information when we use what's called the air quality index AQI which is green, yellow, orange, red, the various colors and what activities you should be doing or how to minimize your your uh your activities based on air quality. And council member Kathy, you have a question.

No, I have a a statement to make, which is I guess uh nobody listens closely to my reports because because I I reported when we made that change and uh you remember Jeff, our our fire chief worked with us on that. He's on the call now. um I mean on the meeting um and and we talked about allowing allowing that. Now I'm going to give Eileen some grace that she may have been offseing her her uh grandchildren or something but I do remember it. We didn't have much there was not much discussion but uh we did do it and um it hasn't been that long has it? No, it was about two or three years ago. About three years ago, I think.

Yeah, time flies. I can't remember exactly when it was, but uh but about that long ago. And certainly, yeah, thank you for mentioning Chief Hurley. He's certainly been an important uh important partner um work with him and the other fire chiefs as part of the Thirsting Fire Chiefs, Chief Brooks and uh Chief Vancamp, Chief Johnson and others have been really important partners. Yeah. And you know, Eileen, I'm just kidding you. I'm just using it as an opportunity to say stay now and now and then in this somewhat I'll pay attention next time. I'll pay attention better.

In this somewhat complicated uh things that we do, it's sometimes it's hard to um you know sort out the things that would be best for council to know. But anyway, we're circling back on that junk cappy. We're sure and uh and you know it made me made me a little dizzy, but uh I'm excited to Eileen's house now and sit by her little fire. I want to Everybody can go to my patio now. I'm gonna go out and buy something.

All right. So, the last thing I'll mention about wildfire smoke is given how warm and dry this past winter has been, we are um nervous about the summer that we're headed into in terms of wildfire smoke. So, um so just be be careful out there. Um all right, now on to asbestous and demolition. This is the last aspect of Orca's work I just wanted to mention. And the last of the handouts is a homeowners guide to Orca demolition and asbestous program. Uh so asbestous is a federally regulated air pollutant and there is no minimum uh safe levels of exposure. Um but and unfortunately there are still products available that have asbestous in them. So I you know we are often in conversation with folks who say oh my house was built in was built 10 years ago so there's no asbestous in it right. Well unfortunately that's not the case. There is, you know, it's more more modern homes are less likely to be filled or to have a lot of asbestous. But um but unfortunately, we can't say any home built after a certain year doesn't need an asbestous uh survey or need to have the asbestous investigated if you're disturbing if you're doing some sort of uh of renovation or demolition work. So, um, I'll just leave it at that in terms of asbestous and then unless there are any questions and then go know I'm perhaps running long but I've talked about a lot of different things again we're a very busy little agency doing a lot of different things got a lot of information on our website and so encourage you to explore there including you can see there in the center under I would like to file a complaint where you can go um again you can file it anonymously or or you can leave a name. Um and um

do you send like a summary of those like quarterly to the jurisdictions because I've never seen what that looks like. We do. So actually at our each of our board meetings um part of the compliance manager update includes a list of complaints that have come in. You send to the exec. Uh it's no it I so it's it's sent to our board members. So certainly could send it more broadly if that would be helpful. Okay. I don't want to put it all on. Hey, can we have a link to our city website? There's a link where they can go, you know. Yeah. Or just do an update. That is a great idea. Update link. Link. Yes. And summary.

That's not all on Joan to give it to Right. Thanks. Oh, great idea. That's Paul's writing. And so, yeah. So, I'll I'll follow up with Paul to see exactly what um but but yeah, because the compliance report actually is a lot of different things. It's not just in it's not just complaints, but it's it's um it's it's a lot of different things and so but we can make sure to to to get you the information that you would love that because we have staff are working on an update to code enforcement and Tom water what that looks like planning for June July to present. So that would be an integral part of what you're seeing in some water and what that looks like for council

regarding updated policy. Okay. Absolutely. Um then let's see. I think the LA Yeah. So then it was just uh the last thing I was going to mention on the website is um so Orca owns that. That's all right. We own our own bill. We'll just say we own our own building and so we have some vacancies. So if you know anybody that's that's that that needs a anything from a small office 1,200 or 120 square feet up to,200 square feet we've got a few few vacancies available. So um let us know reach out. So absolutely more to come. Yeah. Thank you so much. That was good. Thanks for the invitation.

Yeah. So much for you guys. Seriously, I was pretty big. You've had many conversations about EVs and how hard they would be for your agency. We're we're Yep. We're moving in that direction. Thank you. Thank you, Arthur. So, we're going to move on to you home energy school program update. And I heard that you're gonna you have a record amount of that you're going to do in a record.

I do see fast. I only have 23 slides that I plan on showing you and I'm going to speak fast. I really like information and I apologize. I want to make sure that you all I apologize. Ah, this is starting again. Um, want everyone to be able to make informed decisions and have all of the information that I have. Um, so here we are again. Home energy score. Uh just reiterating the goals of the home energy score ordinance or the home energy disclosure ordinance. I'm going to call it home energy score ordinance because that's what it contains. Um I'm sorry. I didn't say one of the states. Yeah.

Okay. I'm sorry. No problem. Eileen would like you all to leave

like right because I think they're interested. I was looking at the slide. So I was I wasn't going to call them out from my colleagues but but I'm interested. There you I'd like to hear from each one of you that you would like to because it is rare that someone stays for another agenda. Not judging if you want to run out. He gets away with it. Thank you so much. KJ. Awesome.

The goals of a home energy score ordinance are to increase transparency about home energy performance at the point of listing, to reduce energy cost burden, to increase the efficiency of the existing housing stock in Twater, and to support our climate goals by driving measurable reductions in residential energy use and emissions. So, I came to you all last February 24th. Um I spoke to you for maybe too long. Um and I will try to not do that again tonight. Um I presented the concept of the home energy score. Um you all at the end of it said that you would like to continue the discussion. Thus I am here today. Um I also have was asked at that uh work session to address some remaining community concerns. So I will do that uh in like two slides. Um since the work session uh thirst county passed the home energy score ordinance in March. Olympia also passed the home energy score ordinance in April. Um staff reached out to insurance uh mortgage insurance, home insurance assessors and appraisers on the topic of home energy score because those are some of the questions that the thirst county realtors association asked that we didn't have good answers for at the time. Community members have started to proactively work towards attaining their home energy score assessor certifications and people have sent us their certificates of their prerequisites and asked where can I get mentorships? People are excited. um Thirstston County and Olympia have started the process with Northwest MLS and the city administr city administrator and myself uh met with a small work group of the Thirstston County Realtors Association. So in terms of the small concerns or the concerns that we hadn't had good answers for yet, mortgage insurance, uh the concern was that it could impact insurability. I wasn't sure if it was mortgage insurance or homeowners insurance. So I reached out to everybody. Um I'll only read the bolded parts so that uh I'm quick. uh no negative impacts anticipated um and home energy score wouldn't be factored into rates quotes or policies nor would it have an impact on insurability so not a concern in terms of assessors and

appraisers uh y you're okay breathe a little bit because we do have people online and so the this how time travels sort of the delay and also Kelly has sorry um I mean I'm not sorry I do have a question though. So, you reached out to the mortgage insurance and the homeowners insurance, but did you talk to the office of the insurance commissioner? I did not. Okay,

good catch. By many brands make better work that Thank you. So, another question. So there was some not positive feedback. So So how do you feel about about the responses that you you had you got from the um the realtors? This is supportive of the home energy score of the mortgage insurance or the realtors in general? Realtors in general.

Uh we're continuing to have conversations and try to work out um any uh I don't want to say kinks or issues um things to come to an agreement on. So is that Lacy and Olympia since they both passed it? County and Jefferson County. My apologies. So is that conversation ongoing with all three? They attended the work session that Paul and I went to. Uh and some of them participated.

Good. Thank you. the questions I think directed towards Olympia and the county because they've adopted it as to what it then looks like to implement it. So the the questions directed to us were slightly different to them uh based on the discussion and where we are at first where they're at in the process. And tucking into Angela's question, Melissa, we we're getting a handful of emails coming in regarding this subject right tonight. One was from Tom Crawford with some things to consider. Were you able to see that email. Um Paul Paul forwarded me some emails today. Um I didn't see any that weren't in support that had uh issues to resolve.

Can't speak for Tom, but I know he's very much in support.

Now I'm just making up next. Keep going. I'll follow up. In terms of assessors and appraisers, uh thirst county staff staff met with the assessor's office and they discussed current and anticipated impacts. People are reaching out to the assessor's office with questions about home energy score because assessment is a word that's used. Um they do uh their anticipated long-term impact of people coming to the board of equalization to argue HS scores affect property value and that's something that uh they've had recent experience with uh habitat conservation plans which we're also working on. Uh staff do not know at the assessor's office whether home energy score is going to affect market values and they won't be able to know until it's in place for something. In terms of appraisers, Olympia staff had a call with Vicky Carr, a local appraiser of from Prestige Appraisal. uh impacts to value would not be measurable. Most appraisers don't assign any contribution of value for having solar panels or being a green home. Uh they said we don't check because it doesn't impact market value. Um and not all homes are uh receive an appraisal and even fewer receive an interior walkthrough that would be able to confirm any of the things that are in home energy score reports. There's also a new uniform appraisal form uh that appraisers are now required to use as of earlier this year where they do evaluate energy efficiency and green certifications as part of the appraisal process. So in terms of the realators association work session and I want to note that there are at least uh one two three four five of us in the room who were present. So um if anyone wants to verify with other minds and voices by all means the voices are here. Um, we listened to concerns raised by the Thirstston County Realtors Association. Um, the main items uh of consideration were real estate listing language, compliance and oversight, jurisdictional budgetary

constraints, and consumer market impact. They also uh created a alternative uh proposal for a mandatory home energy score um that would require uh that similar to how a buyer now and again not a real estate professional so I'm hoping I'm doing this right. I've only bought a house once. Similar to how when you're buying a home you can get an inspection or you can wave your inspection. It would be something like that where you provided information um and then you can either go for the home energy score audit or sign a form that's included with your closing documents that says I was informed about this but I didn't want to do it as their option. Um, I asked if uh they could investigate anticipated results in terms of participation in greenhouse gas emission reduction uh and for me to consider that as a viable alternative since we do have some uh data and studies on participation and greenhouse gas emission reduction for what we're proposing tonight. Also, uh staff requested uh from real estate association a alternative definition to consider for real estate listing. Um there were some sticky parts about that language and I look forward to seeing their proposed language to see if it's something that we can consider or incorporate um in terms of going through all the bullets. Uh they provided some very useful insight, really really useful insight uh on how to integrate with uh the multiple listing service uh and enforcement and some useful industry specific numbers um and questions that they posed on long-term staff capacity and funding which are valid. a little bit. What I heard from the realtors in the room that day was concerned that oversight over listed properties would be inconsistent with oversight over for sale by owners just because of available. So there was a sense that might be overly monitored in comparison

unequally enforced. So there's one there's one there's equal equal enforcement and that it's not just focused on something that's listed through MLS but anything

not just doing what's easy but doing a thorough job to make sure we're being equitable in any amount of enforcement. And I have at least three slides on this topic which I'll go through quickly. Um uh we learned from the realtors association some updated numbers about 90% of homes are listed through Northwest MLS um in terms of Northwest MLS when an ordinance passes that has a requirement associated with time of listing or time of sale we uh as jurisdictions report it to MRSC uh per this RCW they then once it's on the website for MRSC then Northwest MLS or other MLS's uh will create forms and or revisions uh to Northwest MLS based on the requirements of the ordinance. and staff. We learned this at the realtor's uh work session. Uh we would really need member access to Northwest MLS to effectively enforce listings that are there. Um Northwest MLS won't uh share information, I'll get to that in a little bit about what kind of access will be given, what kind of forms they'll do until there is an ordinance that's passed. They don't want to waste time thinking hypothetically. They want to use their time effectively. So, what enforcement would look like for Northwest MLS, which again is not 100% of the homes listed for sale. There are many options which would be determined by uh Northwest MLS's level of willingness to share data and access. It could be that Northwest MLS provides reports on a monthly or weekly basis of all listings in Tumbwater and staff identify from that report non-compliant listings. It could be that they provide access to Northwest MLS for real-time ability to identify non-compliant listings for staff. um the TCMC, we could use our contract or a future contract with a thirdparty home energy score national service provider to carry out the first steps of enforcement where they could scrub Northwest MLS for us and identify the non-compliant list listings and issue a standard warning letter or notice of violation if we so chose to. To be equitable and fair, enforcement must also happen for homes listed outside of Northwest MLS. And I asked the question, um is there a place where

this is most commonly done? Can we make sure that we are um approaching all listings? Uh and one realator suggested uh Zillow, Redfin, and Trullia as the areas where those kinds of sales are most commonly listed. Um we could hire a professional to develop a computer programming code to review Twater listings on those websites. Um to monitor and alert for issu uh non-compliance. Um the jurisdiction I worked with worked at before, we did this for vacation rentals. We just created a code. it found all the ones that were not registered with the city and we were able to issue um non-compliant letters from that without having to spend a whole lot of staff time. So So I have a question

for the cost, right? How would that affect the cost? Because I heard this is a money grab, right? So how would this affect the cost the cost to the city or the cost? cost to the to the homeowner who's selling. I I think I heard it would be equal enforcement uh for so it would be having equal expectations of the community to comply with the ordinance the score right it wouldn't increase that the cost to the consumer not necessarily um the enforcement the way that my brain is thinking of it um we write it so that it would be followed

if people don't follow it and it decreases their cost that's not a reduction of costs. That's a increase of non-compliance. Um, we would be expecting compliance. The way I'm thinking is is they're going to have to pay a fee, right? Because we were talking about people getting training, so it's going to cost a certain amount. Is this going to increase that cost?

No, this should uh the cost for the professional providing the professional service that they're trained and authorized to do um will be determined by fair market value and competition just like any other thing under capitalism. But generally um the costs are between $150 and $350 and they're kept competitive through enough people doing that work. If someone decides to price gouge, people are going to not go for the person that's price gouging if they have enough options. Okay. That was my concern. Is this going to increase the cost? No. All right. Thank you. This will hopefully increase compliance. All right. Uh but not the individual um home sellers costs.

Okay. In any case of enforcement, our goal is compliance. It's not to shame people. It's not to get people in trouble. We want people to come to compliance because we want compliance with the ordinance. Um staff will provide education. Um if a if there is a non-compliant listing, we will go provide education. If the household qualifies and they couldn't go through the process because they couldn't afford it, we'll connect them with the subsidy and have appropriate timelines to make sure that that can work. Um, in cases of non-compliance where the seller and or the designated agent is knowingly and repetitively not following the ordinance, then I my feeling is that fines would be issued or fines would be uh reasonable if we've given them multiple warnings and they keep not following the rules. Um, and since the ordinance is a time of listing requirement, non-compliance will not stop a sale. So, I have three slides here where um I went back to your last work session and looked at all of your questions. Um, I can read through these very quickly if you want or I can hold them on the screen. Whatever is your preference,

what would you like? Read through.

Okay. Um, someone last time asked, "If someone would want to upgrade a home they're buying to have a heat pump, would they be able to roll that into the Energy Spark loan?" Yes, so long as it would increase the efficiency of the home according to the home energy score report. Do does the home have to have a high home energy score rating to qualify for the Energy Spark loan? No. You simply have to have the report. If this becomes a requirement, how do we make sure those costs don't rise? Is there a way for us to control that? Because auditors can charge whatever they want. The city could regulate a price cap for private sector work. In all other examples, competition has driven prices to remain stable. The 150 to 350 prices are they nationwide? Most things are more expensive in the Pacific Northwest. In Oregon, the cost of home energy score assessments rarely exceed $300. The price of the assessment is based on the home size, travel for the assessor, scheduling urgency, and the local market like you would assume for any other service. PAC M would Pack Mountain be the lead for home energy score training? No, you have to be a home energy score assessor to provide the mentoring aspect of the workforce development. However, we could partner with PAC Mountain to help recruit interested folks to get trained. Does this training already exist? Yes, it's a national curriculum. How much does it cost to become a certified HS assessor? The DOE, HS training, and exam are free. Some prerequisite credentials cost money, others do not. And the thirst and climate mitigation collaborative jurisdictions intend to cover the cost of mentorship for at least eight assessors. After those eight, there could be costs to someone seeking accreditation to get mentorship. But eight is the amount that we expect that we need to meet the demand for mandatory ordinances, assuming all four jurisdictions adopt. How long can the home energy score be used for? 20 years. Olympia and Thirstston County's ordinances allow for up to 10 years. When we first wrote the model ordinance, it was eight. Olympia Master Builders asked us to please extend that and we did to 10. Uh, no apartments, no detached ADUs. The US Department of Energy model currently cannot be used for stacked multif family manufactured homes. Attached ADUs would

be part of one assessment, but if you wanted to get another one for a detached, you could pay for another assessment, but the main property that's being sold is the one that would be requiring that. Are the scores for each unit or the building as a whole for things like duplexes? Each unit would get its own score if they have separate meters, electric meters, utility meters, and HVAC. What's that? Megan has a question. Question about the detached ADU. So, for compliance during the sale, if an ordinance was in place, the HS would have to be purchased for the main residence and there would not be a requirement for any HS or a detached detached. No, because the score cannot be applied to a detached ADS.

Okay. Uh, if I make improvements, do I need to pay another $350 for another score only if you're trying to sell your house? Um, this is a great question from Council Member Agabi. The whole purpose of home energy score is to get a uniform energy score that new or older homes can use. In the past 12 months, PSC has increased rates. It makes you wonder if you have any appliances that could save you money. The bills will go up anyway, even if you make those changes in the home. At the end of the day, if you tell someone to do something, but the rates increase, that's not necessarily true. um rates, electricity rates, natural gas rates, they are rising. Uh they can definitely increase within the 10-year period in which a home energy score is valid in terms of the thirst county and the Olympia um examples. Uh we could reduce the number of home years a home energy score is good for to help counteract that. So that if someone gets a really stale 10-year-old um thing that says you can expect your electricity bill to be this amount, but the rates have risen 30 40 50% since then, that's not going to be a really great indicator um because the rates are rising so fast. Um so we could reduce the number of years that a home energy score is good for to help counteract that. Um and yes,

could you if this passes an ordinance also just very clearly show your math so someone could do their own math?

Yes, we can expand the report I believe um to be able to show it's this many uh kilowatt hours at this assumed rate. Um and then they could always go back to the person who did the assessment and reach out to them and ask for more information as well. Um but we could break it down in that way. I think that's smart. Uh and how would we enforce this? What's the mechanism? Um, we would need to pass an ordinance requiring home energy score at time of listing before we can carry out any enforcement. There needs to be a rule before we hold people to account for the rule. Um, and then I had the earlier slides about enforcement options. In terms of subsidy, um, the subsidy that we have in the budget currently and that is uh meant to be associated with this ordinance uh is intended to cover the full cost of home energy score for folks who qualify. Uh my intention, my ideal situation would be to work with a third party to contract out the assessment so there's no out-of- pocket costs. And when the um resident is sending in their personal information that might have uh bank information, um income information to verify that they qualify for the subsidy that that wouldn't be available to public records. Um this so this protects their privacy, also makes it so there's no out-of- pocket cost if we do this through a thirdparty provider. Olympia's past home energy score ordinances refer the subsidy for 80% or uh or 80% or less than 80% of the area median income as defined by um federal HUD thirsten counties does the 80% but also includes any household that's been deemed elig eligible to participate in a low-inccome assistance program offered by the county or another governmental entity. So, if you're on SNAP, if you're on Medicare, Medicaid, you can show that and that can be the thing that um or lifeline for instance, our our lifeline program. If they're registered for it, they can automatically get the subsidy through that process. We can follow either jurisdiction or name our own threshold so long as they're not a gift of public funds. For instance, the Energized Thirstston program, we fully subsidized for uh folks that were under 80% area median

income and then had a cost share for those that were between 80 and 120% area median income. So, we can create tiered programs if we want and I have some slides coming here shortly about um costbur. Uh the Oregon home energy score programs generally see 1% of home listings utilizing their subsidy program. uh in Twater that would be about three homes subsidized per year because between spring uh 24 and spring 25 we had 288 active listings in Twater. Thank you thirst county Realtors Association for those extra wonderful numbers.

25 okay 2526 my apologies. Thank you. Um currently we have $4,000 per year budgeted for the subsidy which would cover 16 households full cost. Uh which is greatly more than the 1% that we're seeing in terms of uptake in Oregon. However, uh there this is some fun map. Yes. Question on the last slide. Oregon HS generally sees 1% of home listing utilize the subsidy. Is there a tiered model or is that 80% AMI in or

uh some are 80, some are 60 um% AMI. Obviously, if we raise the uh income level that is qualifies for it, then we would likely have a greater increase in the number, which I'm starting to get to here. Um, there are 6,830 owner occupied households in Tumb Water. 22 to 28% of those households are costburdened based on similar Washingtonized cities. So, cost burdens being that more than 30% of your income is going to your housing expenses, which include utilities. Uh there's a reasonable estimate that there based on that that there's between 1500 and 1900 cost burdened households in T waterwater given the 288 home listings last year 25 26 spring to spring and roughly 22 to 28% of those that would be between 60 and 80 sales a year. If we're estimating the average uh amount for the um cost in terms of the highest to the lowest uh $250 per subsidy, that would be that we would need to set aside $20,000 per year to subsidize all of the estimated cost burden homeowners seeking to sell their homes based on these estimates. That might not be how many people actually apply. Um, but if we wanted to make sure that we had enough for everybody who was considered costburden, which we would need to figure out exactly how we determine area median income, the all the different qualifications for that, that is an option and that's how much I estimate that it would cost per year. Um, and that's if everybody was getting the full subsidy. If we did tiered system, then it would obviously be less than that. But there are options and the I think useful thing about the ordinance is that we can be vague in our language of who gets the subsidy and determine that on an administrative way and do that also based on whatever budget allocations we have available as well uh to keep it flexible but with the intent of taking care of all the people in our community who need it. Any questions on this? I'm on slide 18 and 23. Um impact on

price of housing. Just noting again that utility costs are the second highest housing costs. Uh PSC has proposed a three-year rate case to the UTC that could increase residential electric rates by 30% and natural gas rates by 20% over the next three years. So energy costs are rising. So having an energy efficient home or knowing what you can do to improve it is a helpful thing to help try to keep the cost low. And I'll get to some finance a financing option here in a moment. Uh cost of housing and living is rising in all areas. This is hard for everybody. Um, this program could help people make informed decisions about what they can truly afford when considering all of the costs of home ownership and with or without a home energy score requirement. Homes that have improvements of any kind appreciate in value. It could be that they put new tile backsplash that makes their home more expensive or something like insulation that can help the the greater good of the community. So, the cost of housing generally goes up regardless. Um, so making that a little bit less of a red herring if we can. Access to mortgage products. Energy Spark home loan. Not a lot of people know that this exists. It's through the Washington State Housing Finance Corporation. Uh, you need a home energy score or something similar to it. Uh, and a list of recommended upgrades and then you can get a 0.25 discounted rate on your mortgage and you can also roll in the cost for those upgrades if you want. Um, you could add the cheapest upgrades that get you to the minimum percent. um which could be insulation, could be basic weatherization, could be something expensive if that's what you choose to do, but there are many options and they show the cost effective ones on the home energy score um report.

If you um know, you know, the home energy score comes back and and you realize perhaps it would be this would be the time to do like a heat pump and so you could wrap that into your loan. Yes. And you can use this for refinancing also if you do this outside of the um process of selling a home and you get a home energy score. I mean, by all means, we can get them whenever we want. Um, if there's a workforce that is driven to actually be able to provide those here, um, you could do this at any time and you can use this particular mortgage product. Well, if you did, and then I was just thinking because at the time of purchase, it's, you know, to be able to finance it over 30 years rather than trying to like do it because we looked at trying to replace, we know how much it costs to do a heat pump and

a lot if you try to pay it over how many years or six months or so. And they're all pricey, but if you do it when you buy, make your improvements when you buy. Okay, that's just and plug. There are some credit unions that have specifically like solar grant and energy efficiency um loan products too that might be at a more competitive rate than a whole mortgage. Um if it's not during a sale, um that are options too, but uh debt is not fun for anybody. um recognize that

yes, if you um Thank you. If you your household income has to be under a certain amount to be able to qualify for this um 250,000 for your household, uh there are two other programs, one through Fanny May and one through Freddy Mack. Um that also you can roll in your uh energy efficiency improvements if you have something like a home energy score. However, those are like held in escrow and uh you have to pay them out first and then you get reimbursed back and they don't have a discounted rate for your overall rate for your mortgage, but there aren't income caps on that. Um so that's another option to help finance the improvements if you choose to make them. Again, what we're proposing is not requiring people to make these improvements, but to have the information to make better decisions. I did an energy efficiency loan to do my solar panels and then bundled a new roof and the tree trimming that actually be able to get the light. So, I was able to bundle all three for a low interest.

So, they're out there. If and when the city uh considers or does adopt a home energy school ordinance, um thirst county and Olympia had uh between 365 days and an arbitrary date in spring. um in terms of the effective date after passing so that there's enough time to develop a program and all the administrative procedures to make sure that this runs smoothly. uh during that time if we were to adopt something um the thirst and climate mitigation collaborative we're already working on this uh this would just be more beneficial to the city in terms of what we could use um work on developing administrative forms workflows and procedures in terms of Northwest MLS integration code enforcement processes subsidy applications and processes who would review it um contracts if we do it with a third party for instance uh exemptions assessor verification and registration to make sure that the people doing business in the city doing home energy or assessments are also licensed to do business in the city of Tumbwater. Uh we would contract with the national service provider to do quality assurance, quality control and reporting to the US Department of Energy which is a requirement. Uh we would do stakeholder engagement for program development with Olympia Masterbuilders, PSC, Thirstston County Realtors Association, an openhouse for the community and any other outreach that the council would want us to do. We would do education, outreach and public communication, training, um workforce development and training and develop a monitoring plan to monitor the success of the program over over time. So now my favorite slide options. Um it would be really helpful for me in terms of managing my workload if I knew uh if this was moving forward and in which way. Um so I have four options for you here. Uh two of them have a bonus option. Um, but I would like you to consider and provide guidance if you can uh to either bring forward the regional model ordinance for city council review for consideration for adoption. Bring forward a revised version of the regional model ordinance for city council review for adoption. Develop a voluntary program or take no action and

cease conversations on this topic. If you do want to move forward with something that does uh it could be one, two, or three. Um, we would also like to add uh state advocacy for home energy score disclosure at uh to the city's legislative agenda. But uh the main things that I would like clarity on from you all um is door one, door two, door three, door four. Uh so I can continue work on this or work on something else. Want to start start with Angela way around the room. Angela.

Yes. for a revised version um of the regional model ordinance. What would that look like? What's revised? if you wanted to sprinkle some special tongue water magic in there. If you wanted to make changes to the income qualifications or keep it vague for the subsidy, if you wanted to incorporate the Thirstston County Realtors Association's forthcoming definition of real estate, public real estate listing, um things of that nature, or if there are other things that you want to see incorporated into the program, we could start to craft it from there working from the base of the regional model.

Right. I I would prefer that because it's almost like we're looking at the lessons learned from those two jurisdictions that had passed it. So that would be my choice. Course of action too. Megan,

I have questions related to number two. Also, you mentioned uh could determine subsidy based on administrative rather than codified in the municipal code. And um I flagged that as what does that mean and what does that look like? So I guess that says that I am also leaning to number two because I want to understand better um what tiered could look like and what how if there was an administrative um level as opposed to codified in code um how that would be structured, communicated to the public and then of course followed and fairly and equitably utilized. Does that make sense?

Yes. And I think that it this is a idea right now for me so it could not be the best idea but if we have something uh vague in the code but then perhaps with each bienium budget we pass you all are proposed a resolution that defines those rules that makes it administrative but also then verified by you all that would make it so that um if you uh didn't want staff to determine that and you wanted to still have control over that but go through an easier process each year for reassessment um through a resolution associated with the budget that could be a way to firm those up and add more accountability um and also more visibility to the public in terms of what those subsidies would be each year. And I think it makes sense to do that um associated with the bienium budget um because whatever funding allows we would then be able to look at the market trends for the area, how much funding we can allocate for this. Maybe there's grants sometime that can boost things and we can make it more magical. Um but that's a way or doing it administratively or writing it in code. All of them are options.

The more you write in code, the more you got to go back and change it. And changing code takes a lot of time, but resolutions take less. Uh but still formalize it as a temporary statement of the city council.

I think I would be more in favor of two, but I do have a question. when you were meeting with the realators um association was there any like might be a ridiculous question but I'm just thinking I don't know how long houses are sitting on the market right now in Twater so if Olympia the county and Tom water all were to pass this and Lacy were to be the only jurisdiction that did not pass that is there a concern that we will have houses I I and I that in this in the big scheme of things, this isn't the hugest do or die, but was there any kind of discussion about houses sitting on the market in Twater because in Olympia and and in the county and Leafy having kind of like a hot market. I don't recall there being a conversation about um if one jurisdiction does it and the others, but more of a concern of what if the um if there's contingency sales and we can't get a home energy score assessor within that five days to be able to turn around a report, that's a concern.

Um if there aren't enough assessors to be able to do it quickly, that was a concern. But then later in the meeting they expressed that they weren't worried about that because most of the building inspectors associated with the realators association are looking at this as something as service that they can add. And I did I was that accurate? One other thing I heard sorry the the current home inspectors are seeing the additional service that they would be trained for that they would end up

and there is something I believe it's in Bend Oregon's um ordinance but isn't in our draft right now that there's some uh director waveability of like if a home energy score isn't uh possible to get within a reasonable amount of time that it can be waved for that too. um in the case that they're that we can't turn it around in time for a sale on contingency that that could be something that's expressed and then uh kind of trying to solve that problem and not create another problem um as another option that we could put into a a tum water specific ordinance. I'm Kelly. You're in your I think this is where I land. Brandon,

I think I to number two. Um it's also when you go to purchase a home, you're the one when you're buying it typically that you are asking for the inspection, right? For the home inspection. Yeah. Seller doesn't normally provide a home inspection. So, are are we going to put all of this on the seller or is there some instances where too it's like the buyer should if we get enough compliance or knowledge out there and go, "Hey, this is available." Is that going to get us to where we would like to be going forward too?

Would make it harder um for people to access the mortgage products and would require someone to have like made an offer on a home before they go through the energy efficiency audit. um which means that they could be uh if they can't actually afford the energy bill of that, they might be wasting a lot of people's time um and also losing time in terms of being able to secure financing. Um but it's all a personal preference at this point. Um that could go either way and uh it being on the buyer is the thirsting county realtors associations uh suggest suggested alternative. Um when we were going through the focus groups for instance um Pamela who is my counterpart at city of Olympia she was going through the process of buying her first home. I was also going through the process of buying my first home at this time when we were starting working on this in 2023. She wanted to get a home energy score assessment for her home. Uh but at the time because there wasn't a like a cause for demand here um she wasn't able to get someone to port from Portland uh from Vancouver to come up here and do the home energy score assessment fast enough for her to be able to qualify for those things because the sales were moving so fast. Um, if we don't have a demand, then we won't have people bothering to get that certification and keep up the certification because if they don't provide, if each certified assessor doesn't provide a score to a home every six months, they have to start all over. Um, so they have to have enough to make it worth it for them to keep that um going. What was the traditional like new home being built today here in

we have a limit of the minimum that we'll be able to do or anything?

So depends on what they decide to choose in terms of how they get the points in the energy code. Uh they could do the things that are cheaper or they could do the things that are most efficient and um those would provide different scores. Um the size of the home makes a difference to the score also. So, if it's a very energyefficient but giant home, it may have a lower score. Um, there's more than 60 factors that go into what makes the score from the 1 to 10. But generally, our energy code, if it uh if the home was built today and not vested under older energy code, which is why we don't have like a if it was built after 2010, then it doesn't have to do this because we have lots of homes that were built after 2010 that were vested many energy codes past and not built to the efficient standards that we have today. Well, I guess that would be my concern, too, is that, you know, coming in if you're looking for a new home, you're like, you just assume, oh, it's going to be built to create and everything. It's like that's not always the truth. So, I think that educating buyers too about the whole entire process and going, okay, well, underneath a different code than these ones actually are.

Sorry, Lance. That's what I needed. That's what I needed. Destroy that. So, yeah, I think I'm leaning towards number two. Thank you, Eileen. And I agree. Number two, u we haven't had a chance to see the yet. So, how will this I mean I know it it is out there. So, it's currently in routing um for the city attorney's review. Okay. Um it went through Brad at Karen now. Um and once she has gone through it and deemed it appropriate to put um on a packet um we will hopefully bring it for you as a packet to have that initial conversation. Some of those ideas will be a what we're talking about tonight. should be able to take our ideas and try to put that into

it at general government first. That would probably

suggest normally do that unless it's or something. Um, not on general government. Kelly, sorry. No, no, I was just sorry. No, it's like Kelly Angela. Iologize.

Oh, you're on general agreement with me, right? I don't know. Anyhow, that's all I know. Is that the direction that you need? Yes. What makes sense? that before we let's reset. Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go to Peter then Joan regarding their option preference to give Melissa direction. I know how to facilitate a meeting everyone. So Peter

so I work in enforcement. If you have an ordinance then you suppose that there will be mechanism to enforce non-compliance and because we are saying you have to have a a score. So what uh so where do we begin to score? So do we say for homes that were built uh 20 30 years ago they grandfathered have a grandfather clause and do we say homes that were built uh 10 5 years ago they must have um those essentially what I'm trying to say is there has to be an enforcement mechanism for you to have an ordinance that is equitable to all consigned. So I don't know if that is what we have yet.

All right. So Peter, if you had to choose to do one, two, three, four, you are have not decided yet. Well, I would choose two, but I would want that two to be supported by clarification. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's great. Thank you, Peter. That's perfect. Joan, where are you at? Two. number. So, we each you all have some thoughts. A Melissa has it all tracked. I'll go back to general government.

I don't I don't know what what is what are you feeling is the value to have it come to general government first. I don't just a council committee process. So, gives the chance for the specific committee to dig in on it and vet it a little bit further, have a little more in-depth discussion before it comes back to full council for review, just like all of our other policies and ordinances that float through the council committee process.

Yeah. But usually we don't have this kind of uh time and depth of a conversation about something before it comes to general government. I I if we want to keep moving on this, I think we're adding, in my opinion, a step we don't we don't we don't need. It seems like people, you know, council members now kind of know where they are on this and how they want to how they want. You'll take that under consideration and look at the timing of everything. That is perfect, Joe. Thank you. Melissa will work backwards and we'll give an update. Okay.

Can I ask uh for one bit of clarification just to make sure that when I bring this language that it includes all the tum water magic that you want me to sprinkle into it and that that includes uh some further conversation or uh language on a tiered subsidy program uh director's ability to wave if a home energy assessor is not available within a certain amount of time and more clarification on enforcement. Was there anything else that you would like me to weave in?

I think those are the most substantive ones. That I mean that would be a thought of why it would go to general government is to give that one more touch point but not have it if it delays anything. Right. So I know what Joan say like if we can work it out to have another touch point awesome. So we have Right. If not then let's not delay. So Jones Joan point Jones point is well taken. what what that what Peter said um about a checkpoint and something that's fair and equitable. Uh could he or someone repeat that what that was? That sounded like something that may or may not be in the conversation.

I think Peter was talking about um are we going to like grandfather, right? If there's 30 years ago, 5 years ago. So, what does that look like for the age of the home? Right? I think that's what Peter was getting at is like what does that look like? Who's included? Who's not included? How are you going to enforce it? What's applicable? What's not applicable? A little more detail with that. Because we know like manufactured homes are included right now, multif family, stacked homes are included, but what does it look like for the age of the homes as well? So, okay. Thank you.

It's a good question, Peter, and thank you, Joan. with the intention being to uh like not require it for older homes that might be more inefficient or to require it for all homes so anyone can make sure that they're comparing all homes efficiency. My my perspective on it is that the most equitable way to do this if it's at triggered at time of listing is for all homes that the model can be applied to for it to be or equable to yeah so it's not equable because I have an older home so I would not do well

right assuming I haven't made any upgrades right so I think of some of our seniors that are using rebuilding together thirst county that cannot do the home repairs I could also see it too like you know as a buyer that you're buying. So I can see arguments for all looking at that too. I just don't know where we would land on cut off date before 2000 was built before 1990 was built before 2010. I don't know, right? Because that's not even a good measure because of when they were vested or not vested, right?

And some people have done updates on their homes throughout the life of their home. That person would want that score, right? like, oh wait, I do have solder home, but I want to add in this score so that you understand that I is the beneficiary here people who would be investing in a home or people who would be selling a home because if it's selling a home, then it makes sense to cut it off. But if it's in terms of anyone who could be buying a home to first-time home buyers for instance, then it does not make sense to have a cut off date for that to be equal information for all of their options. And we've also seen from the research that a more inefficient home, a lower scoring home does not make the home sell for less.

How does this create more efficient homes? And so if the goal is to create more energy efficient homes, we would we don't count the ones that are considered inefficient. Want to cut out some of the older ones that are Yeah. trying to educate. I'm just wondering and maybe it has nothing to do with anything but how does this impact um people who who own rentals and how would this affect renters?

If they are selling a property that they then will be renting um if we there are many different national service providers. if we go with the one uh that most of the jurisdictions in Portland use and there's something called a green building registry where the tenants of that future property could look up the address and find the home energy score. Um, we are not requiring it at time of rental right now or time of lease because um, to be frank, I have no idea how to start to enforce that because there are so many different websites that um, rentals are listed that the logistics of it um, baffle me and I hope that in uh, coming years I can figure it out. But at this point I have no idea. Um, so it's a logistical issue, but if someone is uh renting a duplex or one of the subject buildings of buildings that this would apply to, they would be able to look back and see before they sign a lease because it had been sold um or listed for sale. They could look at the score report and have some information. There are really big cities like Minneapolis have time of um application um requirements for energy efficiency and I hope to learn from them but they're also significantly more resource jurisdictions uh that may be able to achieve more than I can by myself. Do you feel like you've gotten direction from council?

I just think that I just think that this uh will will raise rents or for the people who do this or who have to do this to sell their rental or whatever. So anyway, that's just a that's just a thought when we're thinking about housing. Um thank you, John. Alyssa's writing that down and then Alyssa's gonna work backwards. uh the timing of her judging the ordinance and then timing of if it there's time to go to general government to see all that do a temperature check or bring it to council for consideration. So more to come. Eileen, you had your hand up.

Um and the only two is just that um by establishing this um this industry that is and it's open to anybody, not just at the point of sale if someone wants to have this type of level of information that they want on their home that we can just do this. Mhm. Yeah. And be able to have that information. I I just want to lay it out there. It's not a punitive thing. This is competition that you're council. Are you asking council to do this? I'm just, you know, I'm the one that had my expected beforehand because I don't like surprises, but I would be cool to be able to know ahead of time. We've talked about that. So,

we down that would be like the first on council to do a home. I want to know what I can with my help. Anything else for Alyssa? Well done, Alissa. Good job. Thank you all for your feedback and direction. We are on to item number six, mayor city administrator's report. And I am done. So that's my report. Oh, what are you? You were done. I am done. Heck yeah. meeting a jur.