Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

[Music] Folks, thanks for your patience. You'd like to call the meeting to order Wednesday, August 6, 2025. First, rise the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [Music] Zachary Kahhide

here. Stevie Mina here. Paul right here. Tamar De Martinez here. Okay. So, for our first uh line of business, it's PLZBA 2025005 27515th Avenue and we'd like to declare this item is unlisted for the SRA.

Well, it's already [Music] has already been done. How about Okay. microphone works better than the television. Great. Okay. Um, hi, good evening. Uh, Andy Brick from the Brick Law Firm on behalf of the applicant home leasing uh for 2751 Fth Avenue. Uh, with me this evening is Kelsey Carr, our project engineer, who's going to hopefully set up our PowerPoint. uh Sam Gupta from Five Corners Development who's a project developer as well as Angela Ikez from home leasing uh who is one of their projects uh developers who's going to uh here to address all the financials and uh talk about you know the internals of the project if you so choose. Um it's an exciting project. Um as I'm sure you've seen in the media there's an affordable housing crisis throughout New York State. Um everybody has you know an idea on on how to solve it. um home leasing is actually out there actively working to solve um affordable housing issues. Uh this they're in over 40 uh projects throughout New York State throughout uh the state with multiple locations. They have two in Albany. They have two in Skenctity. They are primarily an affordable uh housing specialist company. um they're the type of applicant developer that every municipality I'm in wants to see in their community. Um I practice, I'm fortunate, I practice in just about every community uh in the Capitol District and um home leasing is the type of applicant that people like to see because they're a quality developer and they have a a proven track record of providing quality affordable housing uh to the communities. Um, and this project is uh exactly what every city is looking

for these days. It's a uh affordable housing project for senior citizens. Um, and on top the gravy on top of this one is that um it's also going to remediate a brownfield. Uh 2751 Fifth Avenue is an existing brownfield site. Our project uh is proposed to provide 73 um affordable units for people of 55 years of older uh after we remediate the brown site the brownfield site underneath it. So it's an exciting project. Um I'm excited to present it. I'm excited to be involved in it. Um what I would propose we do is I'll have Kelsey go walk you through the site uh plan um and the site elements. I know you saw it back in February, but just to refresh your memory. Um, and then we we are seeking a number of variances. So, I'll come back up. We can go through each one and answer any questions you may have. We'll uh, you know, present to you why we believe we meet the area variance test for each of the variances that were requesting. So, with that, I turn it over to Kelsey. [Music]

Thank you, Andy. Um, so as Andy mentioned, so the project is redeveloping the former First American Towing and Recovery Site, which is located between Fifth A and River Street in the North Central neighborhood. The site has been vacant since 2023. Uh, so these are some images of the existing site and the existing buildings. Um, as you can see, they are in very poor condition and have been condemned by the city. We are just waiting on National Grid to do the final utility disconnect, which is actually scheduled for this Friday. and then we are going to proceed with demolition of the buildings. So we're here tonight requesting five area variances that we first presented to you back in February. So those are parking zone front step setback, front door not facing the primary public street roof form, ground floor transparency and building height. Um so this is the previous site plan that we presented to you in February. Um so the first variance is to provide a three-foot front setback for the six proposed exterior parking spaces where a 25 foot setback is required. Um so this design as we have shown here is only is the only feasible location to provide unrestricted ADA parking spaces as well as exterior EV charging spaces that are required by the code and required to be exterior per the built per the fire department. Um as well as some visitor spaces. Uh so there was some concern that was raised about this design shown here um about the 63 foot wide curb cut. Um so we therefore revised the design to uh reduce the parking from seven to six spaces and have provided a curbed island to split the parking into two separate curb cuts that are now 18 feet and 36 feet wide. Um, and we feel that this design is more pedestrian friendly and will result in the drivers turning in

and out of those spaces at a slower speed. The next variance is to allow the front door to face north where the code requires the front door to face the public street. Um, so this orientation facing towards the ADA and visitor parking spaces as well as the accessible sidewalk we feel will improve the pedestrian safety for this specific senior housing use. The next is roof form where the code requires the use of dormers and variation in height. Our design instead uses different facade treatments and colors as well as undulation in the building wall to achieve the same architectural interest. Uh the next variance is to provide 7% ground floor transparency where the code requires 50%. Um so due to the site constraints, the ground floor is proposed to be interior parking. Uh and there will be an area of unexavated bedrock at the northern end of the building. Um, so this configuration allows for limited opportunity for transparency because you don't want to have full uh views of a parking area. Um, so we have now revised the design uh as shown in this updated rendering to add ground floor windows on the fifth a frontage where we felt that it made sense. The last variance is for building height. So the neighborhood 3 development intensity zone allows for three stories or 40 foot maximum height and we have five stories proposed with a 58 foot6 inch height. Um so as seen on this slide there are numerous factors that are driving the need for this variance and we're going to talk through those in a little bit more detail. So to start, the building footprint has been carefully designed to overcome the

existing site constraints that include over 25 ft of grade change from east to west. There is shallow bedrock with significant areas of bedrock outcropping as well as contaminated soils that will need to be remediated as part of the project. So despite the zoning allowing for an 80% impervious coverage, we have over 47% of the property that's actually unbuildable due to the site constraints. Um, so this is forcing the building to have to go taller to be able to achieve the number of units that makes sense for an HCR funding application. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Andy. So, we didn't want to just propose an application without looking at current city guidelines and codes and plans in terms of what the city is looking for. And we think that we meet um a lot of the the goals and objectives of the comprehensive plan. Um, but in 2022, there was a downtown revitalization initiative, uh, strategic investment, and it focused on North Central and and and North Central has, to put it charitably, underutilized parcels. Um, it's a remnants of what used to be there in the industrial age. Uh it also the the recode Troy the new zoning code which was enacted a few years back uh was focused on removing the autoentric uses that exist in North Central and trying to make North Central uh bring it more into conformity with the residential components uh surrounding it and all of Troy's plans and as I said the current crisis everyone's talking about the the drastic need um the desperate need for affordable housing uh for families and seniors and and we're providing a proposed senior housing 55 and above uh that that will be affordable um at a price point that meets a certain percentage of uh average medium income. Um and basically it's

designed to uh meet pe uh seniors who may be on a fixed income but on the lower spectrum of the fixed income so that they don't have to look elsewhere if they're downsizing or they can no longer afford where they are now. They don't have to look across the river or up the hill. They can stay in Troy. Um, and we provide the opportunity uh at at an affordable price point. Um, we think it's a great location um because it is in proximity to downtown. Uh, it's in proximity to the new bargain grocery uh which is right down the street. Uh, I'm sure you know the site, but it's right across from Mount Olympus, the Bedrock Outcropping. It's between uh North and Wler Street on on Fifth. Um, it it's walkable. Um, it is in close proximity. it's on, you know, CDTA bus lines. So, it's a it's a great location for the use we're proposing and um we think that there's a need uh we think that we're addressing senior parking, secured covered parking underneath, um rather than on outside parking, which we think will be helpful. And we're not impacting the viewshed. Whenever I present uh to a ZBA for a height variance, the immediate question is how is this going to impact people's views? more so uh and more importantly in this instance because there are river views uh in the area and you know it's on the hill so it's an important component. So what we did is we did photometrics um from various uh locations uh looking at the building. These are the views from River Street. Uh you can see the building superimposed on the left side um as you approach. Uh, this is from River Street but closer to the building itself. So, it's more of the upfront. And we didn't want to cheat and just give you the summer months because that's a great You can't even see it there with the trees out, but we wanted to be fair and show you what it would look like in fall and winter

months as well in that location as you're you're closer to the building um as you traverse River Street. We also just wanted to point out that we're showing it as if there's been there will never be development along River Street. We anticipate the way the city's turning around and and all the good things that are happening. We anticipate that some of these infill lots will be constructed at some point. So, we also showed little silhouettes of if a two family if a if a a railroad flat house got built there, um how much more it would cover it. So we think eventually all those will be infilled which will decrease the visibility even further. You see those those are the little outlines again from River Street but now you're past it on you know go going past it looking back again with the infill development. We think we'll cover it from 8th Street. uh you you you do see it slightly visible above the existing uh industrial type uses along 8th Street, but if you look at it in comparison to the skyline, um you'll see that there isn't much, you know, river view or anything like that from 8th Street. Um and we're only going to pop up on a small portion of the overall skyline. We think it's a dimminimous impact. And and from Ninth Street, uh you can barely see it in in the winter back there between the two buildings. uh can't see it in the summer and like I said at some point hopefully that you know lots like that will infill along that corridor and and you won't even be able to see it from the streetscape at that point. There's more from Ninth Street. And one one of the components that

I'm very proud to be associated with this project is that this isn't um we're asking for variances to allow this project primarily the height variance. Um not because uh we want to maximize the profits involved by building as many units as we possibly can. Uh the the density is one of the solutions to the affordability crisis. uh what density is and Angela's here to answer the hard questions because I don't understand all of it but home leasing does this not only through New York State but also throughout the northeast um they have the ability to determine if they get a certain amount of density they can crunch the numbers they can work with DHCR and then they could say we can make an affordable project work and we can lock in at an affordable rent if the density is there um certain things are fixed costs. For example, your foundation. The foundation costs what the foundation's going to cost. Um, if you put three stories over it or five stories over it, the foundation is still the cost. But if you only have three stories over it, then the cost of the foundation and the cost of all the other construction costs are only spread out through those three stories. And that's where the numbers don't really work from an affordability context because you can't keep the rent down and still make the project work. So by going up the the height variance we're requesting that diffuses the costs to a larger number of units in the same footprint and that gives them the ability to crunch the numbers and work with the state to come up with a project that they can build and keep the the rents affordable on a monthly basis going forward. And they have to keep those they have to commit to a certain affordability when before DHCR funds. So this isn't something that's a sliding scale. We know going in what they need in terms of density and and we've determined that the variance

that we're requesting for height, which although it seems when you look at a number of stories, it seems a lot. Oh, we only allow three and you want five. So it's almost like a 66% variance. Um but in terms of actual footage, we're only asking for an 18 and a half foot increase from the code. The code allows 40 feet and we're at 585. So, which really I would argue is not a substantial variance because it's just an additional 18 ft. But that additional 18 1/2 ft gets us 73 affordable units for senior citizens. That that's the key that the the benefit to the provide that the 73 units for our seniors outweighs the detriment of the extra 18 and a half ft. You know, is basically our whole argument. But if you have any specific questions about the financials of it, Angela is here and and she can do a much better job with them than I can. We have significant project support throughout the community. Um we we think this is exactly the type of project that the city and the administration um is supportive of. It supports the comprehensive plan. It's addressing the affordability crisis. It's converting what is charitably characterized as an eyesore right now um into something that that's attractive. You've seen the renderings um and it's cleaning up a ground floor. So, it's a it's a win-winwin uh in our opinion, some just some of the renderings. Again, we addressed concerns uh that both you and the planning commission have. We still are going through site plan with them. Um the we added the windows uh for the transparency on the first floor. We are still seeking the variance, but we minimize the that solid wall and we're also going to drastically landscape it. So it's not going to be a solid wall. It's going to be landscaping uh which is going to be dispersed with windows throughout and we think that addresses the transparency variance. The transparency when it's a parking garage

doesn't necessarily make sense. uh you you don't necessarily want to have it open to look in and see the cars that I think the recode which I was involved in drafting the transparency idea was they didn't want solid walls and then people living upstairs and living people living between solid walls on the first floor along your streetscape. Uh but they didn't contemplate garages. I don't think a parking garage is what they would think of with transparency where you want to look into the parking garage. So, we've addressed it by hiding the parking garage, but then doing the windows and the landscaping to hide the wall. And we think it's an effective means to basically put the the parking garage out of sight. And again, existing conditions to what we're proposing, we think it's a drastic drastic difference. And that might be all. So we are here with the entire team to answer any questions that you may have. Um if I can briefly go through the variance test. You have our answers in the application to each element of the area variance test for each of the five variances that we're requesting. But briefly, does the benefit to the applicant if the variance is granted outweigh potential detriment to the health, safety, and welfare of the neighborhood? The answer we believe is yes. U but it's not just the benefit to the applicant. It's the benefit to the city as a whole. Um it's a benefit that the benefit to provide affordable senior housing 73 affordable senior housing units outweighs any potential detriment to the health, safety, and welfare of the neighborhood. We don't believe there is any. Uh there will be a minimal visual impact, but we've minimized it to the extent that we we can, and we think the need for affordable housing um outweighs any potential detriments. Will an undesirable change be produced in the character of the neighborhood or a detriment to nearby properties gr by granting the variance? We don't believe so. We've minimized the viewscapes. The nature of the topography there with the

bedrock outcropping across the street already nature is is eliminating the views for us. So we don't think there's going to be an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood. We couldn't identify anywhere specific where river views were lost because of the topography. Again, uh those minimal impacts to the sky, but you know, we didn't impact riverviews. Can a benefit sought by the applicant be achieved by some other method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than the area variances? We can't. Um Kelsey went through the the site top the site constraint challenges. We are very constrained on that particular site, not just from the brownfield portion of it, but from the the topography and the falloff. Um, but we can make it work there with with the minimal variances we're requesting. Are the variances substantial? I mean, there's an argument if you say you want five stories, but three is only allowed that it's substantial, but again, I would I would focus on the footage. Yes, it sounds like a lot with five stories, but we're really only asking for an increase in 18 and a half foot, which I I would argue is not substantial. Um, and then the other variances aren't aren't substantial at all. And in my experience, substantiality is relative to each individual project. Um, something that may be substantial on one project, if you just go by straight percentages, isn't always something that's considered substantial on another project that may, you know, want you to say no. For example, you have something on your agenda tonight behind us where by my quick math, they're asking for a 900% variance from the setback for the for the carriage house. But it's a huge is it substantial? Yeah, it's 900%. But is it a good idea? Absolutely. If you look at the application, you can get past the substantiality of the variance. And I think is the same is the case with with us in the building height. And lastly, um, will it have an adverse impact on the physical environmental conditions of the neighborhood? We don't think so.

We're going to take that site, you know, you know what's there now, going to demo it hopefully this week. We're going to clean up the brownfield and we're going to put a beautiful building on top of it. So we think we're actually uh you know positively impacting the physical environment, the conditions of the neighborhood and is the difficulty self-created. Every variance is self-created. You know it we're we're looking to purchase the property. We want to do all these things. It's obviously yes. The answer is always it's self-created. But as you know that doesn't necessarily um you know constrain you from still granting it. And I would argue that to the extent that there is affordability housing crisis that we need to address, that is not self-created. So although we're asking for variances for this particular property, we are seeking to address something that that isn't self-created as a benefit to the city and city residents as a whole. So that's my whole spiel and we're here to answer any questions you may have.

Questions, guys? questions from the members here. I have a question. Sure. So, in some previous situations, we've had the fire department come specifically for affordable housing situations as they present their own specific problems. Has have you spoken to the fire department? Is the fire department like pro pro this project, anti neutral? Has there been any discussion with the fire department or the police department?

Or the police department. Yep. So, we we actually met with both fire and police um most recently, well, it's been a long time now, but most recently with uh Chief Aringer um went through all the specifics about the project. And I'll let Angela speak to some of the um nuances of what we're doing within the building to help uh put precautionary measures in place. But um I think the more relevant thing uh according to what his concerns are is that this is a a senior housing building as opposed to a lot of the other projects where they are seeing lots of fire calls or police calls are family oriented. So stereotypically it's going to be that that number is going to be significantly lower. Um and then secondly is that uh this is a um the income bands that we're proposing are a lot different than some of the other projects that are out there where you're seeing a lot of those issues. So this is not as deep as affordable as some of those other projects that have concerns. I don't know Angela if you wanted to talk about some of the other things that home leasing does in order to be proactive about management.

Sure. Uh some of the other items we talked about with Chief Beinger involved um the type of construction that we're going to be including in the building. Um how the alarms are set up and structured. Uh he had a concern about them being directed to the fire station directly without an intermediary. Um the way ours are set up, they'll be basically tears so that they just because somebody burns popcorn doesn't mean there's going to immediately go um to the 911 call. Um, we also have staffing on site which I think um is going to help alleviate a lot of that having um property managers and maintenance staff available to help and assist um to prevent these types of instances.

This isn't assisted living, right? This is No. And I I would just add I was recently in a meeting with the chief regarding a different apartment proposal and one of the things that he informed us was that um they now are requiring specific radio gear inside multifamily buildings so that if there is an issue Troy FD's radios will work inside the building. I guess that was a problem in the past. So that is something we anticipate they'll require for here as well and we're happy to do it. I have a couple questions.

Okay. Couple questions if I could please. The term affordable housing project has been used. Could somebody define or articulate with a rent or lease payment where affordable housing falls in terms of dollars and cents versus a loose generic term?

Sure. So, um the only way to answer this is to go broad and then specific um because the targets do move and the rents move as with the definitions. Um the low-income housing tax credit financing mechanism that we intend to use for the project restricts the rents to 60% of area median income and below. That is based on household size. So, if you are an individual versus a family of two, that rate's going to change. Um, because this is a senior project, we anticipate most of the units will be onebedrooms. Um, we do have a handful of two bedrooms. Um, we don't anticipate any family sizes above two. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but for the most part in these types of projects, it's usually a single individual or a two family household. at 60% of area median income. Um, I'll be honest, I don't remember where the most recent uh exact number is, but it's right around I want to say $55,000 a year in annual income. Um, and that gets updated annually. So, the rents are set so that no household pays more than 30% of their income towards rent. um if we have a tenant in there who's a long-term tenant um we tend to raise their rents slower whereas if somebody leaves and there's someone new comes in the the rents do go up appropriately so it'll be a moving target um the rents that they are to as we underwrite them today are going to be look a little bit different than when we put them in operation in two years um but I would say on average we're probably looking at rents somewhere in the $800 to $1,000 range.

And then we also have income bands. So there will be some units pro likely targeted to households earning 70% of area median income and there's probably going to be some set at 50% of area median income. And that is a conversation that we would work out with the state. Uh typically how the process works is once we get um approvals from the variances from the ZBA, we would go back to the planning board. We would submit an application to the state. We would propose a rent plan and then they provide feedback to us and we make modifications to adjust it accordingly. So you really don't have a real number.

I it's not going to be $200, but it's not going to be 2,000. Um, I know it'll be in that range and I know that it'll be affordable at for households at or below 60% of area needing. You mentioned tax credits, federal or state. So, it's a federal program. Um, but we also utilize state credits as well. Limited partnership or private funding?

Uh, so both. Um we we get credits from the uh government that we then sell on the private market. We use that private equity as our first line in our capital stack. Our next uh tier of capital funding is soft subsidy from the state and the remainder of the funds come from private sources and uh mortgages that we go out on the market. And has home leasing actually purchased this property? We have it under contract. But you haven't closed. We have not closed. No. Let's go back to the number of units in the building. 73. Correct.

Correct. How many parking spots?

It's 66. Mid60s. And then there's also street parking. So that's in the basement. Uh the most majority of Well, sorry. The mid60s is the six outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's more for guests. And that number was um based on I believe we provided you a schedule of what our other senior properties are that we own and manage. Um, we also have a list of tenants that do have cars and this falls within in line with what we see for other similar projects we have.

So, you're looking for relief of two stories over and above the three. Correct.

Can I ask a question? Sure. So if um if we deny some of these but grant you some of these, is the project still going to go forward or is everything what are our conting what are your contingencies other than you know obviously you want you want all of these? I mean we could ask you to change some of them but um where do you sit with these variances? For instance, if you didn't get your five stories and we only threatened to keep three stories, would you still be able to continue? I No, the project ends. The project ends.

Yeah. There's no there's no there's no possibility of getting this penciled out at three stories. It does not work.

So, I am a visual person. I think that it's not an attractive building and the the change of colors is not enough for me with the various with the gables or changes in height and stuff like that. Is that something that can be changed architecturally? Yeah, that's something we can explore

because I mean I think what's happening in Troy is that there's a lot of affordable stuff happening and everybody's swooping in with these very generic buildings and I think we have a really cool city and I think we have an obligation. I don't have a problem with let's make the city better, but let's make the city equally as pretty as it was a hundred years ago. And you know, if there are some stipulations on roof lines, which is obviously put in there for some reason, aesthetic reason. Um, I would like to see nicer lines. That looks like a hotel in Miami or Bingmpington. It doesn't It doesn't look like Troy to me.

Yeah, we're happy to revisit that. I mean, I will say the planning board was very enthusiastic about the design, so it's somewhat always in Yeah. Another question if I could please. Did somebody say that 47% of the property in this proposed project is undevelopable or did I misunderstand that?

That's right. So if you look at the site plan, sorry. So basically everything that you see in the green that's behind the building is sitting 25 ft below the grade of the building, right? So that alone doesn't allow us to to utilize that property. Um, additionally, because the rock um the the uh rock outcropping is is so uh high or right below the surface, there's portions on the right side of the building where we had to build over it or we couldn't build on it alto together. So between those issues, the fact that there's also a brownfield uh cleanup that's required here, I mean that's that doesn't relate to the 47% but ultimately we are constrained in working with a very small footprint where otherwise we would be allowed to use 80% of the overall sub.

But you knew that going into it. Sure. Okay. Can I just ask a technical question? Has nothing to do with the variances and you can be quick about it. When you clean up these these brown fields, obviously you take stuff out. Do do you put like some sort of material or some of a barrier down? Yeah. So, all of this is done in in um coordination with DEC. Yeah. But just give me like the the for dummy version of what happens.

Yeah. I mean I until we go through the process with DEC and they they provide a recommended remediation, you don't know exactly what the what the um like it could be an insitu situation. It could be pure removal or it could be a vapor barrier. There's different scenarios based on the contamination where they'll say this is how you're going to [Music] go. Well, I just wanted so with the DEC2 just because it is a brownfield there's no health risks. Well, that's the exact point of going through the brown. Well, I understand that. Yeah,

I mean just because DEC is involved doesn't mean I mean there's data showing that once these things get cleaned up there's no health risk to people living on this property and we because of our funding we also have additional environmental um oversight I guess you would say um New York State HCR has their own environmental department that is extraordinarily stringent in their requirements and they will do a full environmental assessment review and they have the authority to impose additional requirements on the development as they see fit.

Could I if you would go back there was a graphic which um I think showed the project financing or something like that. I'm not sure if it's you went through it a second ago. You just passed it there. So can you explain that?

Sure. So um as it was mentioned earlier with any of these developments, there's certain fixed costs that we have in a project. Um whether you're building three units or 300, you know, some of those fixed costs don't go away. One of them is site work. We also have certain design fees, legal fees, surveys. We have to do a survey. Whether we build one unit or a hundred still has to get done. More cows in the barn, you spread over your fixed costs.

Yeah. Um so after we come up with our total development costs, um something similar happens on the operating side. So one of the push backs I get often is, well, you're just a greedy developer trying to make money off this. You want a variant so that you can make more money. That's not the case. We are required to meet the capital programs manual as issued by HCR and there's a stipulation in there that the projects may not cash flow more than $45 per unit per month. Um the way the underwriting guidelines work is in addition to that the vast majority of the limited cash flow that's allowed ends up going to a deferred developer fee. Um which essentially is payment that we are deferring later and I can tell you from experience is often never seen. Um, so that really tiny thin line at the top, that's the cap on our cash that likely we will not even ever see. Um, we also have reserve contributions. Um, so that's just the nature of project. Any lender is going to want to see you put money towards um, you know, replacing the roof when it gets bad, right? So we have that as part of our operating budget. You have your standard operating expenses. This would be things like snow removal, property manager, um, uh, spraying per pest, that sort of thing. Um, the cost does go down a little bit, um, when you go up in unit, but as you can see, the numbers don't really go down that that much. It's it's helpful, but it's not enough to move the needle. Um, then there's the taxes piece, which is uh, a pretty simple calculation. The big part of this is the debt service. So with any project we go to equity first uh that's the base of our capital stack then we use soft subsidy and the remainder is going to be filled uh with a mortgage and that mortgage payment is going to be determined based on how much

available cash flow we have from the project that the bank will allow us to underwrite to because the rents are limited with HCR I can't get a bigger mortgage my mortgage is going to be capped unless I increase my rents and I won't you know even rents increase 4% next year, which is kind of a lot. I'm never going to get to the level I need to to fill that giant gap from 4,000 a unit to 12,000 a unit. So, by having a larger project, what it does is it allows that additional cash flow to fill this fixed cost that's going to be required to do the remediation to make sure that we're building it to residential standards.

So, so what is the $13,000 number? Is that that's just the total of all these numbers added up. So you can see how um is that what you need to generate per unit per year? Yeah. So would the rent be in line with that number or more? Yeah, it this isn't average but the average of the project will be in line with that. Your taxes are on there but you have aren't you getting tax credits you said?

So there are two different tax programs. There's the taxes that we pay on the property and then tax credits is a separate part of the IRS code that we use. Um I don't have a lot of time to explain it, but it's that's on the capital side. So this is the operating side of taxes and then the tax credits I referenced earlier would be the capital side. Just property tax tax credit passes through to private investors who underwrite the project. Yeah. Okay. different from city of Troy property tax.

You show taxes in your bar graph. Do you have tax abatement in mind with the city of Troy or do you have a proposed period where you're not paying taxes? So, we underwrote this project as in this example here um using 581A which is uh allowed by right under the New York State Tax Code. Um, we would be open to exploring pilot payments if that's a preferred structure for the city. No, my question was, do you have anything pending with the city of Troy in lie of paying property or school tax? Currently, no. Okay.

I'm done. I don't have any more questions. Anybody out there?

My name is Ellen Synopoly. I live on First Street in Troy and I've been a resident here for 35 years, which I guess makes me a newcomer, but okay. Uh, but one of the things that attracted me to Troy was its very unique architecture and I know that the city needs to move forward. It needs housing. There's lots of components that need to be taken into consideration. But your comment about what makes Troy special, I think unfortunately it's getting lost when I see boxes put up, one box after another. And what are these things going to look like in 10 years? the atrium, the big circular white building that we have in Troy that has nothing to do with anything about Troy. I just am advising you to be very careful about what is built because the last thing I'm interested in if I'm going to stay in age and place is what Saratoga looks like

at this point. And I've tried to drive up there, go to the co-op or do something. It takes me 45 minutes from get to to get from one side of the city to the other. And the huge buildings are right up against the sidewalk. Where's the green space? I'm just asking you to consider what makes Troy I don't mean to pick on you, but I'm asking you that you consider what makes Troy special and that we not lose sight of that as we move forward. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody?

Is there anybody remotely um question? [Music] I didn't see anybody out. If there are no additional comments, then the applicant I think wants to respond. I think the applicant may want to respond to the comments.

Oh, um, no. I mean, we appreciate the comments and we agree that architecture and Troy is fabulous, but I think what really drives Troy and Troy's history and success is Troy's people and we're trying to provide a a project that gives Troy's residency ability to stay here and, you know, agent place. So uh before you take up the the variances, I think it only fair to advise the applicant that um we only have four members present. Uh so the obviously the motion will fail if uh if there's a tie and uh if the applicant wants to uh adjourn to the next meeting when hopefully we'll have five uh that is up up to you.

No, that's just it. You can can can we get a sense of maybe we should adjourn? Um

I mean I just want to make one one last statement here. So the the owner of the property right now is is a friend of mine, somebody who um actually him and I own a handful of uh market rate product throughout the city of Detroit, right? and and we're purposely buying in the North Central area because we believe that that's a market that is in need of help and it's something that the land bank's been pushing. He's a contractor. This property he although we are being we have an obligation to to demolish the site, he's going to turn around and turn this into a site for his construction. the fact that there's a seven seven figure plus cleanup on this site. There's very few opportunities for someone to come along and say, "I'm going to deliver this by virtue of the fact that you have all of these site constraints and you have a seven figure brownfield cleanup that 95% of people don't know how to go through that brownfield cleanup program just because it's not their their business. So, this is not update, but this is just letting you guys know that absent being able to get the height that we need, this property is likely going to sit there for years, if not decades, given the fact that nobody's going to want to pay seven figures to clean up the site. I mean, the land itself is cheap in the grand scheme of things. It's really the cost of of doing this. And the next person that comes along and says, "Hey, I want to build something." They're going to be coming back and asking for the same uh the same height variance. And I think I just want to echo one more thing that Angela said because you guys, not you guys specifically, but you've seen me in the city of Troy for many years when typically when a developer is coming here, they're asking for more density because they want a few more dollars in their pocket. That is absolutely not the case with affordable housing. With market rate housing, that can be the case. That's not always the case. With affordable housing, this isn't a function of we need more density because we want we want to enrich our pockets. This is a function of we need more density otherwise the project

doesn't work and project doesn't work we walk away and the property is going to sit there for many years like this [Music] talk amongst ourselves we can talk amongst ourselves publicly publicly so what do you estimate think the cleanup to be? You said it was seven figures. Do you know what it do you have an estimate what you're thinking it's going to be? Uh I mean so early indications again we have to go through the whole process but early indications somewhere between

I'm sorry I couldn't hear you mean you're talking the mic. Oh, sorry. Um, so until we go through remedial action work plan and go through the whole process with DEC, we don't know exactly, but our engineers who have done the phase one and phase two and all the work on the site so far have given us a rough estimate around 1.2 to 1.5 million. So, well, okay. So, to my peers, anybody. So, I mean, I don't love that it's a fivetory and that if it's a threetory, it's not going to work. I mean, would it work if it was a four story? Is there

Can we meet halfway in the middle? Is that a Is that a possibility? That's That's one question I have for you. I I don't have a problem with the I like the windows. I mean, and I applaud you for taking this brown field and cleaning it up. So, that's awesome. Um, you know, what you've done with with the parking garage, the windows, I have a problem with that. front door, whatever. I It's the way it looks. I think it I I wish it could be a little bit shorter and a lot prettier. I mean, maybe that sounds ridiculous, but that's my opinion.

It looks like an apartment building to me. It It doesn't look any different than There's a way to make it look like more of historical Troy There's there's ways to make it architecturally. I live up the hill from here. I I live I live I live a half mile up the hill and you know come I come down the hill and you're right. It's it's an eyesore. It's through there. But I mean to come down and then look like and I don't want anybody take this wrong way. Say well there's affordable housing as you can tell. Boom. You know, I just think that

All right. So, I just I just want the board to u it's okay to express your opinions on the on the the um aesthetics

the aesthetics of the project. However, that's more in the planning board's perview. And so, I mean, you're you're concerned with the st substantiality of the variances that are requested, whether or not the hardship is self-created. um you know, things like that. All right? And um if if some of the if some of those things, you know, th those are the things that you need to base your decision on, okay? Whether or not uh you feel that the project sufficiently meets the test or a test, I guess, to uh qualify for a variance in your judgment. Do we vote on each variance request or one summation type?

So uh I would it would be what did you say? [Music] So, so I mean it seems I don't know what the what does the applicant have a preference in terms of order here because I know that the height variance is the most critical one to the entire project and I don't know that we have a preference. I just I don't think that one overall vote is workable because each variance I think No, it would have to be separate votes. I'm just I'm just wondering I was asking if you had a preference as to which one we vote they vote on first. I I don't think we do. Yeah.

Yes. Right. And I I would just add that I mean Rick is absolutely right about the the appearance considerations, but you also do have the ability to make recommendations back to the planning board. We are still, you know, in front of them. So, if you uh would grant the variances and then uh have a condition that you pass along to the planning commission that you don't like the look of it and you want it to look more like Troy, uh they would take that into consideration and you know keep our feet to the fire when we get back to them.

And I wanted to clarify a little bit. Okay, there's appearance meaning uh what have been referred to as boxes. You know that people seem to find that objectionable some of these forms. Uh then there's appearance having to do with whether or not five stories works in the city of Troy, you know, for this for this uh zone and district. And that's those are two slightly those are different considerations. The second one has to do with zoning. The first one having to do with color and form of the structure is more a planning board consideration. But you and and as Mr. Brick just said you're free to make any recommendations you want to the planning board and I'm sure they'll consider them.

You don't need a seeker. We do not need a seeker planning board. Just confirming

make a proposal. Someone else want to do this one. All right. So, well, we never got answer. They wanted us to vote. I think they want us to vote. It's on. So, do you want us to vote as a as four or do you want to That's We're still We I don't think we ever got an answer. Yes or no? I mean, it's just a courtesy. We're extending it if you want it.

Yes, please. Thank you. I move that I move that the board uh approve the variance uh with the with no conditions I guess on the first one based on the following fact. We only need one of these. So which variance are you moving on? You have Oh, sorry. So we'll start with the first one here. The Yeah, the applicant u the fivetory one. The the applicant possesses construction of fivetory building where the maximum is allowed is threetory. So really there's two two stories of saw in the height variance which is 18 feet above the 40 foot.

Are we doing them individually or two? Oh the two separate ones. I apologize. I apologize. Sorry. So on the first one which I'll call the fivetory. Uh the property is um I move that the board approve the variance. the property is is able is unable to provide a reasonable return unless the variance is approved based on your funding requirements first. Do we then we vote individually? Right. So so so someone has to second. I'll second it.

So you want to call the roll call? Yes. No. Yeah,

she can vote. Yeah, I mean she I just seconded the motion. So she doesn't um I I'm I'm okay with the hype of the stores. That's fine. Yes, I vote yes. Paul, [Music] I know. I'll vote. Yes. Motion passes, right? Don't

Motion passes. 31. Right. All right. For the next variance, the maximum height allowed is 40 and the applicant is applicant is proposing 58.6 with a relief saw of 18.6. I move that the board approve the variance. I'm going to go with the same one. Uh the property is unable to provide reasonable return unless the variance is approved because of your funding requirements. I'll second that. Yes. See? No.

Yes. Yes. Motion passes. On the next one. All right. The for the next variance is the parking zone requires a front setback of 25 ft. The applicant is proposing a zero relief. A relief of 25 ft is requested. [Music] It says zero. There was an amended. Okay. Sorry. Excuse me. Um I must have an old version then.

All right. Parking zone requires a front setback of 25 ft. The application is pres is proposing three feet. Um let's see here. Okay. A relief of 22p. Oh, sorry. A relief of 22p. Sorry. Uh, I move that the board approve this variance based on the following fact. Uh, the requested variance, uh, if granted will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood. Second. You need you need a second. Second. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. So on the next variant, the application proposes 1% ground floor transparency while the minimum of of 50% is required for the non-residential use. Relief of 49% is requested 7% or sorry. All righty. I move that the board approve this variance based on the following findings of fact that the property is unable to provide a reasonable return unless the variance is approved again based on funding. Second. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. All right. Moving on. The the applicant is seeking a relief of to orient the front door main facade facing north. U. I move that the board approve this variance. [Music] And I'll use the the request variance if granted will not alter the essential character neighborhood character of the neighborhood. I think it makes sense where you're putting the door to put draft traffic. I'll second that. I approve. Yes. Yes. Yes.

All right. Zoning. The next variance. The zoning code requires large roofs to be interrupted by dormers and height variations relief sought to use var variation in the building color and material instead. I move that the board approve this variance and the request variance if granted will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood based on the different colors. Second. Yes. No. No. No. [Music] Think that's everything? That's all I got unless but I might have an old form. So, is there any others? Did you Did I miss one?

Nope. Thank you for your consideration. Appreciate the time you spend. Thank you. Tamar, did you want to make any recommendations on the record for the planning board? I would. How do I do that? Yes. Speak out on the record. Okay. I would. So,

I would love to make a recommendation to the planning board for all that would like to hear. I just think we have an obligation. The planning board has an obligation. We and our residents and the people who are coming from the outside to rejuvenate our city to take a look at what we have. We have people making movies in this city. We have people coming to this city to be interesting. I would like our city to stand by the idea that people want to come to our city to say, "Wow, look at that cool building. Let's go look at that building." Why can't we make everything interesting instead of cheap? Is there any specific requests that you have?

Request? Well, uh, yes. I think ar it should be architecturally interesting and and and and and borrow from some older styles. Understood. I I can relay that message. I'm sure staff will, but I get it. Okay. I would echo that sentiment. Understood. Myself also. Yep. Okay. We're pretty sure Zach. Thank you all.

Thank you. [Music] Zach, you just recommended that the project be architecturally interesting and uh reflect the architecture in the city of Troy that is pre-existing. That sounds good. Good. One thing I forgot to do and that was to ask for an adoption the meeting minutes from the last meeting. We can do that right now. I second that.

Oh, did I steal your second? Oh, I thought he thought he made a motion. He made a motion. Oh, he did. Oh, you want to second? You can go right in. I'll second it. Approve. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. They just approved adopting the last. We forgot to Okay. The motion was made by Paul. Spring Avenue, Sacred Heart, Rick.

So, sorry. Yes. Okay. [Music] Just one second. Spring is a sacred heart. Yes. Yeah. But that's not the next Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Yep.

So, why is this type [Music] [Music] But they're not changing it. So why isn't it just

as a type the unlisted might uh ill advised. It's really a type two which does not require a secret action other than perhaps you recognize that the board finds it to be a type two action. There's as far as I know there's going to be no changes to the exterior of the building. I think they're just putting

so the board declares a type two. We don't need a secret project. Second. Second. All in favor? Yes. I I I Okay. PLZB 20250045310 Spring Avenue. Come forward, folks. Now you come forward. Speak loud for us. Oh yeah. No, we just said hi. We are TSL. TS.

Uh well, we've been at Sar for 16 years with our our school age programs. I'm sorry. You can hold it if you want. Oh, should we sing? Sing.

No, we've been at Sacred Heart for 16 years doing school age programs. apparent we didn't need special variances for that. But uh we're transitioning into a daycare license because the school recently closed. We're taking over some of their academic programs in partnership with the school district and as such we need to have a license for daycare with OCFs which again we currently have but the license is different that we're applying for because we're working with younger kids with the UPK programs. So, we're getting a daycare license and continuing our programs there under lease. And we're using a section of the building that is more than 2500 square ft. And I'm told we needed a variance uh because for daycare purposes, you needed a special approval uh to utilize more than 2500 square feet in the building. So, we put through the application for that.

I have no problem. I have no comments, no questions, no concerns. Can you can you present uh tell us your name? I don't think I Oh, Thomas Thomas Styles. Shemica Brown Johnson, Lynette Smith. We're twins. Um this we're TSL. We've been around the Capitol region since 2009. We have before and after school programs, summer camps, but um we're we were afforded the opportunity, I guess, to stop it all the time.

Stop it. I I'm proud of who we are. We're not going to be here all night, but basically we're just asking for um I guess permission to to do more with the UPK programs that are currently um in the building, but they closed. I know you're familiar with Sacred Heart School and we've been there for like well we've been in business for 16 years but they closed and that's why we're here because we were we're going to do the UPK programs there but I think we have 27. Yeah. Yeah. I have a question. Everybody uses anacronisms.

What is TSL? I have no concept as to what that is. Thomas Thomas Shemica Lynette, but it's also together. I got it. Sort of like the Supreme, right? It's a dual acting. Well, we're all we're all teachers. The late the late St. Louis. How many kids do you think this is going to add? Just curious. I don't think it's going to add anything from what they had because the school already had. We're just taking over this programs that were already closed.

I don't think there'd be any increase. I have one other question. I don't see it happening. What if the dasis says we want to get the space back for classrooms because we have this sudden miraculous enrollment? How does that relate to a variance that you would get tonight from this board in dealing with that potential situation? I don't see it happening, but No, I don't think so. They Well, I mean, one of the discussions was maintaining the academic portion of their mission and maybe one day

doing exactly that. I I don't see it happening. You know, Father Jiannis up there. I think he's trying to get to retirement. God knows what will happen with the parish in general once he does retire. We have another place on 547 River Street. We opened a daycare center at the new facility down there. Yeah, we just was there. Yeah. on the news that was No, but we are that was our backup plan. That was our plan B because we've been at Sacred Heart for a long time. So, we figure if Sacred Heart ever folded or something happened,

then we would have, you know, a new place in Troy because we love Troy. I went to Sacred Heart as a little boy. I grew up on the east side. I live in Troy still on the south end now. So, you know, I love it in Troy and I dedicate myself to Troy programs even still. So, um, Sacred Heart's special place in my heart. Even me, the mayor's son went to our programs, too, Paul. He's older now, of course, but you know, so it's just it I think for us, Sacred Heart is for Troy, it's been like a very sad to see the school close and all that, but Yeah. Well, thanks for keeping it. We're thankful for the opportunity. We're sure how it would go, but affect us.

Yeah. We started in OB and then that club and then that school well became a date but we lived there 16 years. Is there any comments from anybody out there in the audience? Hi just g that was it. Okay. How about online? No I I don't know. I'm like what are we supposed to do? We're going to do that. Do I have I don't have to do the secret. All right. So, got move the motion.

Yeah. I I move the the board approve the variance um the variance um for the school center for the project to occupy 12,18 square feet of gross floor where it only allows 2500 ft. uh a relief of 9,68 ft. Um I I the variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood. Actually the opposite will be determined to nearby properties if this is granted because it's really keeping what's there. I'll second that.

Yes. You calling for a vote? Yes. Yes. Yes. [Laughter] [Music] Certainly. Okay. So, moving along to PLCBA 20250046 1819 Fth Avenue.

Good evening. Lindsay Hooper. On behalf of 1819 Fifth Avenue Associates, the property owner, we are seeking a variance of about 91 ft. We have applied for a subdivision with the planning board um wherein the existing lot has two structures. One is a commercial office building. The other is a renovated carriage house that sits at the end of a driveway which is gated in by a brick and iron gate. um by reason of the subdivision, one of the lots, the only structure on the lot will be that carriage house that sits at the end of the driveway. So, the variance we are asking for is the length of the driveway um at which the carriage house currently sits and has sit since it was constructed however many hundreds of years ago. So in talking with staff, um I guess it has been suggested that the staircase which is at the rear of the main structure, the main house structure and would be in lot one if if uh the current iteration of these were um if the subdivision went the way it is now, well, I guess it would be in lot one no matter what. I'm sorry, but it's not included in the easement.

And that is a an exit. There's a door leading from the main structure that empties into the driveway ultimately, I think, or something like that. Have you considered u have you taken that under advisement yet or what? Yes, we haven't. And the I believe that the easement we provided uh previously was was a draft and we are open to amending that to include that staircase if that is okay. And there's um then there's also the issue of whether or not the dividing wall between the two structures is fire rated. It is. It is solid brick. It is fire rated.

The back wall of the building where the staircase is. Yes, I was in there yesterday. Um I saw it myself and I believe you provided photographs. It is um a brick wall on either side of the staircase. I was talking with Eric specifically before and he wasn't he didn't think that u have has that been reviewed by our building and plans department. It it is under review currently. I provided a comprehensive floor plan of the interior um to

I saw I saw the plans that you provided. I didn't see whether or not it was brick or anything like that. I didn't know whether Carlo had had blessed or not. Um and the um the third thing is I think there may be some confusion in the grant of easement between lot one and lot two. Uh specifically the second paragraph I didn't really get very far in it. Um these not the whereas paragraph but the second grant paragraph. [Music]

How so? I think it says that um it says that the owner the owner of lot one will not use the easement except for the purposes in the grant which is maintenance and access and lot one is the carriage house which I thought had retains all property rights and it would be the owner of lot two whoever ever that is would only use the easement for maintenance and access. Do you see what I'm I don't know if you have that in front of you or not. I do. I have it in front of me right now.

I don't know if that was intended or or not. I I meant to raise it actually privately with you, but um um I believe it can be read to and I think the original intention is that the the owner of lot one will not use will permit to be used the for any other purpose. Um, we can amend that language if that for clarity purposes if if Well, that's it's really for your benefit and protection, I think, because if you I don't know. I I don't think you meant to limit the uses for the owner of the of the land itself. Lot one is not the owner of the land the area. It's

I thought lot one is it was going to be the carriage house. I'm confusing myself. Let me pull the survey back up. one is the current at least that's what he you're correct. Yes, lot one is not the carrot house. So yes, I I can amend that language. Again, this we provided the the draft. It's subject to whatever changes.

So I I mean I don't think we have I don't think the board has any real objection in principle to uh to granting the um uh the variance that's requested here. But I we I think the board would really like some assurance from the building department that that back wall is going to work and it wouldn't hurt to have the easement u encompass the back staircase perhaps and um um clarifying the grant language. Absolutely. We we would certainly

So if I I don't know what would would the board be able to table this with your consent just for one more time so we get this all straightened out? Yeah, we would have no issue with that. I make a motion to table table table table. See you next. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Is the intent to sell lots uh it at present that what I've heard from the applicant is that they currently have no intention to sell. There's no there's no imminent sale or or sale. Just out of curiosity, why

the two buildings have two very different purposes at this point in time. One is an office building and the other is a fully renovated residential carriage house. That was the initial motivation just to separate them into one. I can't hear you. You're fading up. I apologize. The two buildings on each lot, one is a large office building. It's a being used for commercial purposes. The other is a fully renovated residential carriage house. So the intent at the outset of this was just to separate them into one lot that's going to be residential and one that will be used as an office building continue to be used as an office building. Can I ask a question even though this has been tabled?

Sure. So, is there any ramification because that is in a New York State historical district and a Troy historical district and changing changing changing a building that is quite fabulous in Troy and and has a lot of provenence. Um, all of a sudden sort of chopping it into two on paper. Um, I'm not sure at this time. I could, you know, take that under adisement and look into it further. um that has not come up thus far in our our plans to subdivide the property. I guess my only question goes back to why would you subdivide it into two separate legal lots

unless the intent was to sell one of the two they're off. I have no uh no knowledge of any any plans to sell anytime soon. Yeah, I'm sure it's, you know, always a possibility in the future. So, I mean, the the real issue here is is just the variance. So, yeah. What they intend to do with ultimately with the property is here nor there. Ultimately, it's more of a planning issue, too. Okay. Since there's no more business, ask for a motion to adjourn. Motion

adjourn. I would propose a motion to adjourn tonight's meeting. If there's no more business, I second that motion. [Music] I approve that. Approve. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. All right. Microphone's off. [Music] So,