Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

You just write a note. She will here and she will know some of the attendance. [Music] Yeah. Who you're looking for? She might know them. She has a better shot of Sorry. Are we delaying everything? No. Okay. Thank you, Steve, for being honest. You want me to make a motion to call the meeting? We're all set. Let's go. All right, folks. So about four minutes past six, we'd like to call the meeting to order. Angelina, can you um handle the roll call, please? Evie Dundis, present. Zachary Kai here. Steve Miner

here. Uh Paul Wright here. Tamara De Martinez here. If we could rise the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. [Music]

Adoption of last uh month's meeting. I would like to place a motion to approve the minutes of the June 4th, 20125 zoning board of appeals meeting held in the Troy Council chambers. I will second that. Motion's been made. Motion has been made and second. Seconded roll call. Uh, second. No, it's been made in a second. Oh, I sorry. I approve. Approve.

Approve. [Music] Go right into Okay. Welcome everybody here tonight. And we're going to start off with um PLZBA 20240014. [Music] State your name and we're representing. [Music] Hello, my name is Andrew Donovan with the engineering firm of Andrew J. Donovan PEPC. I'm here the applicant representing the owners of 241215th Street. [Music] So, would you like a little background on our project,

please?

Okay. So, uh, we started this process in March of 2024. Um, we went before the zoning board of appeals, prior zoning board of appeals. Um, for a use variance. Um, this build, the building is, um, was one time a home had a history of commercial use. Uh, the ownership of the building wanted to reuse it commercially. Um, so we requested a use variance to create two commercial uses within the building. that was approved by the zoning board of appeals uh on the condition that we got planning commission approval. Uh so we began the process with the prior planning commission um that rolled into midl last year late last year rolled into the new planning board. Um, and as we work through the process, because this building is to the north uphill of u of 15th Street or of um, Uzi Street on 15th, we were not required to have any on-site parking for this this use in the in the zone that it's that it's in. Um, but what we did is we moved forward to attempt to create some on-site parking. um just to reduce or possibly eliminate any need for parking on 15th Street in this location. Um we were made aware of the 25- foot setback um from the because it is technically a residential zone. Uh the 25 foot setback, the best we could do was get two parking spaces on this lot. So, we worked with planning through the planning board um and got it got the two spaces to work fine. Um upon the conditional approval of

planning, um they requested that we return to the zoning board of appeals for the area variance to um to the 25 foot setback. given this site to constraints. Um the best we're ever going to do are four spots on this on this light on this lot on this site. Um so the site plan that was submitted showing the four spaces, we've entered this process because there may be room to move something here or there. We've requested the zero foot setback. Um we have the green space out in the front. We have the sidewalk. it'll never be a zero foot setback and as as the present site plan shows we really have an 18 foot setback um that we can work with and so we're asking that we can get a var use I'm sorry an area variance for this property to be able to um not have any setback requirements

so there's going to be four park we're gonna have four parking spaces on it put a new sidewalk in there Yep. Yeah. And and the the the original project was our our our goal was to uh if anybody remembers the site once upon a time, um you just drove in perpendicular off of 15th Street and parked wherever you could. Um so we've now controlled it with an entrance exit. Um, so with all of our turning radiuses, vehicle spaces, and everything, um, the four is the best we can do, but we've, um, we've done our we've done what we can to, uh, help control, uh, traffic flow and movement on the site. So, we'll have four spaces.

Okay. [Music] There any questions out there in the audience? Any questions online?

So I I have a concern. The staff report says that there was previously a seeker done. This is an unlisted action. So no lead agency is necessary. Uh the prior ZBA apparently did a seeker for a use variance and the planning board did a seeker for the site plan I believe. But I think you need to do a separate seeker uh determination for uh the um area for the for this uh area that they're seeking. Was a short uh uh environmental assess assessment form done? Yeah. Both blind and it was done both.

We have it on file. She's saying we have it on file. You have it on. Yes. Okay. [Music] You want to get a motion for the area? Well, for the for the determination whether or not this will have no no significant adverse effect on the environment. In other words, a negative whether whether or not it's a ne qualifies for a negative determination, a negative declaration. You want to make that motion?

Y um Mr. chairperson and with regards to PLZBA 2024-000014 as supported by the staff reports and my understanding of uh a short uh uh environmental assessment form on file uh with the uh zoning board of appeals. Um, I ask that the board find this proposal to be an unlisted action with sufficient information available for a negative declaration.

I'll second that. [Music] I I I can proceed to the record. I don't have any questions. Have a motion. The variance. It's an area variance. Yeah, it's an area variance, right? Correct.

I move I move that the board approve the variance uh based on the following findings of fact. The variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or determine the nearby pro determined nearby properties if it is granted because you adding parking spaces. We only need one for an area advance, right? Provide more. If you have more. Yeah. Yeah. The benefits sought by the applicant may may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance. I think that's good.

Okay. I would second that motion. I'll second it. Oh, you sorry. [Music] I go to approve. Approve. Approve. Approve. Approve. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Okay. The next um business is PLZBA 2025005. [Music] Is there anyone here from

the table? is what what we're doing is we're going to table this. We were asked by the client to table it till next month. Yeah. Not our clients. [Music] I second this one. How will I approve? I would vote yes. Table. Yes.

So it's table correct. PLZBA 2025 0035. Anyone here from Central Rock Gym?

You mean 0023? I have two. Good evening everyone. [Music] Hold on one second. Okay. Need I need to amend that. We need to go with PLZBA 20250023. [Music]

You're welcome. That's that's I think they think that it's somebody else 547 Street. Yeah. No, that's you. No, no, no. That That was them. That just said it's got two. This is for Central Rock. Central Rock just came up. Yeah. We want We want you up here. Okay. Can Can we Can we put on the record the the two reference numbers? Uh two different numbers. Two different numbers. Why does it have two? Why do Yeah, have one number. The former one was denied. 23 is the number. Well, tonight's number is two. They reapplied.

No, it's a I have two request two on the published agenda says 35. I have two three on the staff report. The published agenda. So that it was not noticed for 35, right? I think that yeah the staff uh report has the old one but the one that was published on the records it's 35 so that's what we'll go with 35 or because it's a new application 35

but can can we can we state for the record that they had applied once before under the number 2025-0023 correct it was denied and they reapplied under PLCBA 2025-000035 is that correct correct Correct. I don't have the I don't have [Music]

so right. Well, I think first we need to know what what's the difference between this application and the one that was denied the location. Is that where you hung the cloth one up now?

Correct. That is where the cloth one went up. Yes. Correct. Um so, um Angelina, are you able to bring up the images I sent you this morning or or No, I have some papers I could Okay. [Music] So, uh, my name is Jamie Coloro here on behalf of Vital Sign representing Central Rock Gym. Hey, Betty with me. Um and we moved the sign from the exterior stairwell over to um an area on the building that was actually intended for signed use anyway, right? Yeah. So, um that's it was the building was built for that purpose in that area. So, um size is the same as it would have been on the stairwell. We just moved it right over to there. Uh the backer panel that you're seeing in the photos is is not a lighted sign at all. It's it's existing as a panel for the letters to sit on. So we're not drilling a ton of holes into the building. Um it just mounts with a couple angle pieces throughout. So um and that was at the request for Betty and Crane First Columbia. Um so I think this this area looks good. It's it's visible from River Street going north. Um

yeah. Will the will the sign that you're the permanent sign be any different from the banner sign that you have now? Definitely. Yeah. Look much nicer. Um yeah, it's going to be they're going to be front lit channel letters, so lighted at night uh with a photo eye turn on when it gets dark. Um so pretty standard in our industry. I have a question. Sure. Instead of the sign facing River Street parallel with River Street, you've moved it to where that banner is now. Is that correct? Is that your proposal?

Yes. Yeah. So, uh, originally it was on that exterior stairwell visible from alternate 7, but like the tower. Yeah. So, we decided to move it here. And when I spoke to Nate, um, he actually informed me that when they designed the building that that square, that blue square was intended for a sign. So that was kind of the intention when they did the design. That's where it is now. The banner, that's where that banner is, the temp banner. Yeah. Yeah. What size of square footage is that banner? That banner is 18 feet by seven feet. 18 by

seven. Seven. Yep. And the permitted sign area is 60 square feet, correct? Um 48 48 48 So it it says I think in we're looking for a leaf of 95, but the backer panel that you're seeing in the photos, it's the blue match backer panel that the letters sit on, that's not lighted. I mean, I guess it's considered a sign per the municipality, but it's just a panel that it sits on. So, the letters are not going to be 145 square feet.

No, but the I just want to make sure that but the rectangle, the blue rectangle that says Central Rock, the one that's sitting on the big blue square. Sure. So, forget the big blue square. Yeah, because that's there. Yep. That already exists. Yeah, that's just a big blue square, right? So the central rock gym is what is the what's the dimension of that? What yay by yay of the the the building the blue square on the building of the oh the backer panel it's that says central rock gym with the rock line. Yep. So that is I believe 19 feet wide 19

yep by 92 inches tall. So about 7 and 12. You said 19 by 7 and a half. Yeah, roughly like 144.6 square feet I believe is what the actual panel is. And it's basically acting as an extension of the building so that the letters can sit on that instead of drilling a ton of holes in the building. So have have you just tried to do see what 60 square feet looks like? Yeah. And what does it look like? Do you have an example of that? It doesn't stand out. The client doesn't They hate it. It's tiny in that area. It's just not not as visible as they would like it to be.

We last time we granted a canopy, right? Sure. Yep. So that's in the back. That's in the back. Yeah. Right. you indicate that uh it will be appropriately lit to maintain visibility without causing disruption. How will it be appropriately lit?

Um well the it will only be lit at night and you know the faces diffuse the light so that it's not overly bright and accentuated that in that way. Um we use all standard you know 7,000K is what it's called pure white LEDs. Um the faces are they're acrylic white faces so they diffuse light you know just so it's visible at night but it's not blinding you know like pretty much any standard sign in the area. Are the lights behind on top or around?

So the letter is u it's a 4 inch deep letter. It's a channel letter. So it's a 4inch deep letter and the the lights sit inside that facing out and then the face goes on top and the the lights get diffused through the face. [Music] Do we have any uh code um restrictions on on that type of lighting? That's what every sign Yeah. It's the the same lighting for the one on the can too. Same exact sign basically for downtown. Yes. But not within that in the DMU, right?

Downtown business district. I think there is a restriction, but can you move the thing over to see the sign again? Oh, on the building.

Is that true to scale there?

Not really. Um, I sent Angelina, well, the ones I passed around actually today are are more true to scale and that that's actually initially what um, Nate had sent me before I even got this project. Go ahead. So, this iteration that you see is actually very close to what we submitted during site plan approval, which we had this background blue square saved for the client to use for tenant signage. The tenant actually requested to us to put the signage that would go here on the stair tower, which we said that's all right if that's what you guys want to do. And then obviously we went before you last month. You guys denied that sign. So we're coming back to re represent it here where it actually was originally intended to go and that was actually published in our site plan approval back in 2021. Um when this whole package went through the planning commission at that time.

Can you see it from when you're coming down? Who's street getting on alternative 7? Can you see that sign? No, this is below the bridge deck. So, you'll not see it from the highway deck. So, the staircase sign you could see from the highway. The other one? Well, yes, cuz that is way up here where this is below the bridge. The bridge comes up to just about the fourth floor of the Flanigan building's windows right here. It's under it. Yes. So, this is under

the bridge, which to your comment last month, you can't see this from the highway overpass anymore. Well, so I I appreciate this. I think this is in a nicer location. What I don't understand is when anybody's building a building, why don't they just appropriate the building around what's allocated instead of ask for something bigger?

So, if you remember, we got approved under the old code which had a larger allowance for signage and since we're now in the new zoning code, we're subject to that for sign. So this was predicated on the former code that was relevant until the middle of 2023 and that's what you see as a backdrop that was designed for that particular code set. Now we're in the new code and that's why we're here asking for relief because we had it actually passed through the planning board um shipo NPS with that as the kind of theme for the whole signage design and now we're just trying to adapt to the new zoning ordinance. So the variant you're looking for is really for the white lettering, not the big blue box.

Yes. Because the blue box as you look at it really is already there. So what Jamie was trying to articulate was the signed lettering is really all you'll noticeably see. That's a difference from what's there right now. Not without the banner, but just the backdrop of that larger blue square. Do you feel it could be reduced at all? I'm the lettering

hesitant to reduce it. One for our client trying to keep it scaled to their um sizing, but I also think it scales better to the square backdrop the way it is. That was the comment to go if we were going to ratchet it down to the allowable signage amount for square footage, it would look really tiny in the context of that large blue background. I think there's about two feet on each side. That's of the square of the building. There's two feet from the back panel itself. You have two on the right, two on the left. What about above and below? Above and below. Um,

a lot.

What's the scale model? I think he said that was the scale. Yeah, you have about I got two. I don't know which one. Oh, I don't saw the one. About six feet top, bottom, front to back. Okay. It's more of a horizontal logo than it is tall. Which Which is the scale one? This one or this one? This one. We got Which one is the scale? I only saw that. That's the only Would you like to see this? I got Okay. So, there's six feet on top, six feet on the bottom roughly. Yes. And then the letters

and Yeah. on the back or panel to create. I mean, if it did go smaller, you could still put something decorative that's not a sign, per se. Tenant really wants to do that, though. It's nice, clean backdrop, and it scales nicely to their logo design. [Music] Have you had any of the neighbors any comments from the neighbors or anything?

I would say the neighbors have been very favorable to the entire master plan. Not just this, but the grocery store, the apartments, and everything. And I actually wanted to to comment this to the board is this is the poorest census track, not just in Troy. It's the whole capital district is north central. It's a 48% poverty rate. They have been starved for commercial growth for a long time. And what we've tried to do with this project is bring in a lot of commercial growth to help stimulate some activity and make it a more safe community and just give them some shot in the arm of economic activity. And that kind of requires change like this to come in. What we wanted to do with the city is be collaborative and try and welcome in a tenant like this who is a great operator. They're one of the largest commercial rock jam operators in the country and they don't really need to come to Troy, but we fought really hard to convince them to be at this spot because we thought it was important for the neighborhood and we thought it was a great fit for their type of um demographic that they go after. Their perfect customer, they told me a long time ago was the engineering professional and student and what better place in this region to put them than the city where RPI is located. So, I wanted to just comment that to say we worked really hard to bring them to Troy and I'd like to try and get them the signage that they're asking for to make sure that their facility is successful and that this is a great place that everybody can be proud of after we're done that it was a great success story and it's brought a lot of good positive qualities to the neighborhood.

It's open now, right? It's about to open. They're getting ready to finalize their opening date in the next couple weeks. Have you noticed any um traffic issues? You know, people getting distracted, any slowdowns or anything? I think we need traffic on that part of River Street. Honestly, it's it's been way too quiet for a long time just with nothing going on. And that's kind of what we're trying to do is bring more activity and commerce to that part of the city in a safe manner. Yes. Yeah. Well, my point is there's capacity on River Street for people to be going there.

I mean, I think it's a it's it's the whole concept is fine and it needs a sign obviously because when you drive by you're like I don't know what that is. Um I'm just stuck on the size. That's my stuck. I think the size is appropriate. I I do this every day, all day, every week, all week. Um, I grew up with my father owns the business. I run the business. Um, there's a big difference between over the top and just right. And I think this is just right for the space.

I think your blue background is good. I think it would look good. I would just ask you respectfully to reduce the size of some of those letters. bring it down to maybe somewhere's between what they allow you and what you're asking for.

So the if we if we keep the backer panel the same size and we reduce the letters, you're going to have a lot of open space around. So we have to reduce the backer panel too. I can't I I have to proportionally scale this side. So I can't take it stretch it wide leave it the height. You know what I'm saying? I have to scale it down height, width, all the same. So those letters sit at 36 in tall. Um when they're up on the building, they look tall, right? Because they're up on the building. So So that's big.

So in doing the calculations without the blue buck ground, that will uh come to about 67. What What is the height? Um excluding the blue Yeah, because because it was different from the rest of the building. So I thought it was part of the the sign area and the way our code it's written any part of the sign that is different from the rest of the building is considered the sign area. So you Yeah. So I included that in the cart and so Okay. It looks like you're giving a different So I could have had

I could have had them, you know, put that panel up without me making it as an extension of the building, right? So it would have just been on the side of the building and then I could have attached my letters to it, but they hired me to build that, too. So uh No, that is fine. So if if you were to consider just the sign Yes. Yep. So that's third. The logo itself on the left is uh 3 by3. [Music] Yeah, it is. It's Yeah, that's 6 by6, right? Correct. So that that would be I think what is it? 36. Is it 136?

Yeah. 36 just in the logo. No, if I want to calculate everything like together because I don't want to with the backer. No, with the letters the logo with the logo's 36 36 square actually a little less cuz they cut the corners off. She's actually 76 on the rock climber. That's about 39.69 for the logo. So this right

right here. Yeah. Yeah. 136

136 is the R to the M. It's the R. Art of the M is 136. 136 and then the combo letters are 36 + 36.

So you got 34 for rock. You got 39.6 for the logo. And then 764 [Music] [Music] just the letters. Yeah.

Correct. Okay. What if we do it this way? The length of this is one less. Sorry. Say that again. So the length of this from here from the start to the end. I'm okay with that. By this by So you want to do the back. You're saying what if the backer panel was just No, no, not the back. I'm not talking because this is the beginning of the logo. This is the beginning of the logo. Okay. Which one is which?

Yeah. [Music] What about this? They said 102. I think Angelina, are you saying this to limit the height of the entire signage by this dimension because yes, I think what she's saying is if the if the sign started at with that the logo. So her the the rock climber and the and the letters equals 106 feet. Yeah. Yeah. 126. Oh. Oh, sorry. That's okay. But we're close. We're in we're in the same ballpark. Yeah. How did you I mean I got 90.77. I don't know how you got

it's um is it 76 high? Yeah. 76 by 76 is the So it's Oh, it's 76. 76 here. 75.98 called 76. 3625. Okay. But that's Yeah, that's the whole width. We included the Do you need a panel? Can you adhere it right in here? panel is because it's a it's a it's a corrugated building, right? So, it's got ribs in it. So, for us to hit those is like ridiculously hard to flush mount it and then it's causing so many holes in the building. You know what I mean? If if that tenant ever were to move out and they got holes everywhere the panel, huh? I mean, we can

I mean, to be honest with you, you don't even know you're not going to notice it. Well, that's the point. I understand that's the point, but at the same rate, just trying to I mean, we could put it on rail, you know. Yeah, of course. Okay. What's that? So, we could put it on a raceway. Um, a raceway is basically like half the size of what the letter is and it's just a raceway that sits behind and the letter sits onto it. It's fastened to it and we just hang that on the building. It's color matched to the building. It's basically like a smaller version of the backer panel that sits behind central and then it would sit behind rock gym. Yeah, it will still be lit.

The raceway is not. The signs will be lit. So, what he's describing, it's a channel that follows behind the series of letters like this and that. So, there's no back or panel for the whole assembly. It's just a strip and a strip with one power penetration in each one. And they just have a power penetration for this logo. So, we'd have more holes through the wall, but it's only three, not a million of them for every letter. And that's all you would have behind this. And like Jamie's saying, it's a color matched piece of plastic or metal that just sits behind all the raised lettering. So, in the channeling of our siding, hopefully we can just hide it. It will sit in one of those recesses and it blends and it's less overall sign area for the thing we're trying to install on the building. So yeah then then the square footage will be true to the outside wall

but so but ZBA has to know that based on their current calculation of a sign it means what we notice is much higher than what they actually uh proposing because from if they're excluding the backdrop it's going to be from your calcion 102 roughly 100 square feet we for 145 five. So it is much lower than what was noticed, right? No, I I I understand that. Is the backer plate going?

Yes. If if the sign gets approved, if that's what it takes. Sure. Is there any comment from [Music] any comments from anybody online? No. Do you have to have a sample of what that kind of sign looks like? Even if you can't

Oh, yeah. like any of the lit letters like even the ones on the building that what is it the storage space right across the street extra space the courtyard Marriott same thing it's it's all channel it's called channel letters channel letters

yeah make a motion to be the secret on this um So, well, first I want to ask corporation council question. Um, yeah, it's listed. Yeah, Mr. Um was or if a uh a short environmental assessment form was submitted by the applicant uh under the prior application that was denied, can that be uh used for the current application since it materially?

So they've represented this is a different because of location it's a different application. That's why we're allowing it, right? But the So I don't know I don't know if they submitted EAF or not. Yes. Everything was submitted because the same thing that's what Yes. But okay. So they're she's saying that same the staff has in the right but would that since it it's a reapplication would that short form still be applicable to both applications? It's a new one. It's not a relication. Oh is it a new one? It's a new application. Oh, so they have a a new short form with the new application. Oh,

this one it's usually they submit the same one even though like nothing has changed on the property. I don't know what was submitted. Yeah, it's the same thing, but they kind of submitted the application. So, it's the same information. Everything is the same. Nothing changes. Nothing changes on the see for Yeah, it didn't change it.

Well, if a new one was submitted, I'll I'll go ahead with a motion then. Uh, Mr. chairperson uh uh in regard to PLCBA uh 2025- 0035 as supported by the staff reports and the new uh short uh environmental assessment form submitted by the applicant for this current application. I ask that the board find this proposal to be an unlisted seeker action with sufficient information available uh for a negative declaration. I second Second call for vote. I I vote to approve. I vote to approve.

Approve. Approve. Approve. Approvals. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I move that the board approve the variance with the condition that you're going to use channel letters. Yep.

Based on the following uh the following findings of fact, the benefits sought by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance. Uh the requested variance is not sustainable. substantial substantial excuse me the variance if granted will not have an adverse effect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district and can we need to add to that that they're getting rid of the initial back plaque I I I added that with by saying the channel letter also but as a condition you're not going to have the backer board

correct yeah well that was the channel letter that was they're all channel letter they were always channel letters but the backer panel is now just hidden behind the each letter set. I will second that. I vote to approve. Approve. Approve. Approve. Approve. Is that like the real one? I hope we get nothing in the TU for approving something maybe. Based on your application. Thank you. You don't have to come back yet.

Okay. Next business is PLZBA 20250037 84 Street.

Hello.

My name is Kyle Angstrom. I'm with Emmy Studio Architects representing the owner Amahai Alman. [Music] Okay. So, 84th Street is currently um mostly mostly vacant but still occupied. One apartment is still occupied. Um so there there's two existing structures. the the front we call it the front house building which is currently a vacant commercial space on the ground floor and three apartments one of them being occupied um we are looking to convert that into eight apartments and and the commercial space to remain um the carriage house which I'll get to in a second is well I'll I'll cover it now the carriage house is is going to be reconstructed to to accommodate four apartments. Um I'm here today because there's some contention here in terms of this new ordinance about the 700 square foot uh average apartment required for existing buildings. Um this is something that we were very careful to meet in the front house building. Um, within the average of the eight apartments, we're at I think 720 square feet. So, we're we're checking that requirement there. I think it's actually 742 ft to be exact. The carriage house is effectively in disrepair. Um, we are salvaging the the rear facade for historic purposes. Um, but essentially it's a new building. Uh, when we're done with the initial demolition,

not much of that carriage house will be left. We're effectively doing new footing, new floor plates, new exterior walls, uh, new roof. Um, so it's really, I think, um, categorically a new building. Are you sprinklering that building?

Yes. Yeah. So in my initial talks with the building department, it was was my impression that that it was effective again categorically a new construction and therefore would not really be held to this 700 foot um uh rule in the new zoning zoning law. Um so you know we we have four apartments in that carriage house. Um, I think they average to roughly 350 square feet. So, they are, you know, affordable studio one-bedroom apartments. Um, and that's where we're at. So, we're seeking essentially um for a variance to to do that there.

Were there apartments in the carriage house before? You know, historically, um, I I don't think so. I I don't know the the history of the carriage house, but it's vacant now. There's no signs that it was ever an apartment historically. Um, but again, it is it is vacant and and largely in disrepair. And so, you know, I think if this project wasn't happening, that carriage house would likely be needing serious remediation regardless.

I have a question. When you stand on Fourth Street and you face the front of the building, you have a storefront. Correct. Correct. Is the storefront going to become an apartment or is the storefront going to be a storefront? Storefront will remain a storefront. Okay. Then in addition to the storefront, as I face the building, how many additional apartments over and above the storefront are there?

So in that building, which we're calling the front building that faces Fourth Street, we'll have eight apartments and the one commercial space on three floors, right? Eight apartments on three floors. Yeah. Well, there's technically um let me see. There is a there is currently a a mezzanine level that that we're tying into the top top units, but um there's really four floors in total once you account for that. How many apartments including the ground? So, so is the commercial in the front and there's going to be residential in the back

above three three stories above the the the commercial. Okay. Yeah. So, is the building four stories? That's correct. Yep. Okay. You're only seeking a variance for the car. Yeah. the variance is is so to be clear the the front house complies with the with the zoning that pretty much remains as is. Yeah. In terms of size in terms of size we're expanding the footprint slightly but but we are seeing that that 700 foot rule is met. That was my question. Yeah. Yeah. That's correct.

So what you're really looking for is a variance for the apartments and the carriage. Correct. Yeah. So, I have a problem with 350 ft apartment. That's small, isn't it? It's really small. Yeah. I I I I don't think it sets a good precedent for our city. And I also think it's a self-created problem, which is right on our thing there. I mean, I think since you're building it, you can make it whatever you need to make it, or you can add I know you can't add square footage, but you could reduce the number of apartments. I mean I I Yeah, I think it's too small.

Yeah. So, I'm I'm also I have I have units myself. I'm an architect, but I I've got some rental units. Those units in that in that category rent really well. They're they're really appealing to students and to to young professionals. Um 350 square feet. I mean, I could show you a floor plan. It's it's relatively comfortable. Um, I I actually have a hard time renting my apartments that are bigger than that just because Well, I understand having like a three bed pool is hard to rent. That's that's not even a one bedroom. Can you show us the floor plan? Yeah, I can show you the floor plan.

Um, Right here you have a bedroom, common space, kitchen. This looks out to this common area here. You know, it's studio apartment. Fairly a small studio. and cold for seven.

So this is the existing footprint of this house. We're actually extending out right. So we have kitchen dining area, kitchen, living, dining in this kind of common area and then a small bedroom here with the bathroom shared washer and dryer. What's what's the dimensions on that bedroom? Uh I can't see in this but it's it's well above 70 square foot but I would imagine closer to

and then what about the kitchen living? So that is 12 feet by roughly no 12t by roughly 16 ft. What's What's the target rent? Like what are you going to try to run them for? I'm not the owner, but um I I don't know. Yeah, I think doesn't matter. What is the What is the total square footage of the carriage house? The the layout now without the apartments.

Well, he's adding he's adding to the footprint. Yeah, we're So, the the new proposed footprint, excuse me, the new proposed footprint is 1,20 square feet for the footprint. Um, it would be nice for two apartments. Yeah, honestly,

if you look I think if you look at from a development strategy, there's there's a nice variety of sizes of apartments available between the carriage house and the front the front house. Um, again, as in in my experience as a as a landlord, those those units are really beneficial to [Music] You have 350 foot apartments? I do. Yes. In Troy. Yep. Where? Uh I have one um it's uh 165 Fourth Street. Fourth.

In fact, my larger units I typically have people ask me if if they have smaller if if we have smaller um Yeah. But they're not They're comparing like a a threebedroom so smaller like I understand I'm a real estate person so I understand onebedrooms are sweet you can rent them all day long and this is not even a onebedroom it's a room have you have you have you applied for a demolition permit uh not yet intend to oh yeah of course yeah

what what are you preserving ing of the old structure of the old parish house the mainly the rear facade on William Street I don't know if you have so so you scroll down this is the current state of the facade that will effectively remain intact. We're probably going to have to rebuild quite a bit of it, but that's what you see there is essentially what we're salvaging. Everything else in the car house is going to be

Are you building new sidewalls or is it a party wall that's already existing or what? It's a party wall, but to not stress the very delicate brick, we're we're effectively building a new wall on the inside of the brick and then and then having it So our our structure is is effectively self sustained with you know this is kind of and what about the west side the courtyard side uh the courtyard side we're extending out you're going to put a new footing down for that

yeah foundation yeah we're extending out 12 feet this way and that'll be 15 foot So the code requirement of 700 ft applies to exist buildings existing at the time of the adoption of the ordinance. And the issue I think that the applicant has raised is is the structure that they intend to build an existing building or a new building because for new buildings 356 square ft is a lot. for old buildings. And I think the purpose was to avoid cutting up perfectly good apartments and making them into small little cubicles for people who live in.

Right. I don't know if that that purpose is being defeated by anything they propose. I mean, that's something to think about the board for the board to think about. Is it new construction essentially or is it really just a private new construction to me? If he took the last wall down it would be the the wall on the alley there on William Street. It sounds like only one one wall wall will remain, right? Yeah. I think and you're building a wall behind it.

It's almost a philosophical question at a certain point. At what point is it still an existing building? Um, but to your point, I my reading of the zoning ordinance, and I don't disagree with it, was to prevent people from taking existing one and twobedroom and three-bedroom buildings and and chopping those up. You know, we're we're basically dealing with a with a building that, you know, I think is is in disrepair and, you know, is vacant and you're definitely getting the demolition permit. Yes. 100%. Yes. I mean, so in essence, it's actually underbuilt.

I Yeah, that's that's the applicant's position and that's for you to determine whether or not you agree or not. So, sorry. Go ahead, Steve. Question. Let's go back to the courtyard side. Leave Williams Street side alone. You're going to come out. Why don't you just come out farther and increase the internal square footage of each unit and we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you came out an additional 10 or 15 feet into that courtyard area. Yeah. That then put your wall up. What would you increase the size of those units to?

I think we'd have to come out quite a bit. And if how much distance do you have in the courtyard? We are trying to preserve a little bit of common area there. We also have I understand that. But how much distance do you have in the courtyard? How large from one end of the courtyard to the other? So who's navigating this? Can you go Angie? Can you go to the uh the renderings that we have? Just reduce the size of the 600. We do have, you can't see it here, but in another plan, we do have a stair, a new stair here for egress. That's the old building to the right. Yeah. To the left.

Yeah. This is the old building. Yeah. This is the footprint of the the existing charact encroaching more into this courtyard. As you can see, I think I think we're getting uncomfortably tight. You didn't answer my question. What are the dimensions of the courtyard? Uh, we've got 34 feet in this direction, but only 16 feet here. Okay. If you came out on the 34T section to be equivalent with the 16 ft section, how much additional room would that give you per unit?

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. Yeah. Um, I' I'd have to work out that math. I'm not I'm not sure we we'd get there. We would be losing this courtyard that is already fairly tight. Um, but respectfully, I I would just go back to the point that I it's my it's my interpretation that the zoning ordinance does not restrict new construction from having less than 700 square feet. So we look at it my understanding is if we look at it and say yeah it is new new building basically he can have the smaller units.

Is that for us to determine or is that for the city to determine? No. The building department has agreed with my interpretation that it is in fact a new construction. They're here. I mean you made the application on whose recommendation? the building department they they once it's here it's based on building department recommendation. So the building department said it here they weren't entirely sure. I'm more here on the planning department's recommendation not the building department.

Yeah but we understand that but it's if it usually uh it starts with building department that that is where the application is supposed to start from. So if we are you are here today it means that Ko agrees with us that it does need the variance requested because we if he doesn't agree then it's he had an option to right kind of send us an email or write off that he you don't need a variance but once you're here it means that he agrees that you need

I guess I'm saying if you if you look at it as if everyone agreed that it was new construction So, it's a question. Okay. If everyone agreed that it was new construction, if it was if it was, you know, if there hadn't been a building existing before that they weren't trying to preserve the one wall of, uh then they wouldn't need a variance. Correct. If if you agree that it's new or if you feel that it's more new construction than uh reuse of an older building, it won't hurt to entertain the variance application. You're keeping one wall. Correct. The bathroom. Just that one brick wall. And then we got everything's new around us.

Yeah. There if um Yeah, that I I don't need to see. Yeah, there there is. We are keeping a corbolene detail on the rear side that's kind of like in the inside of the apartment. And is that structural or decorative? It's decorative. Which makes it even Why Why are you not taking that wall down in the rear? Yeah. Historic asked if we could somehow keep that, preserve it. So on the inside of the apartment you could you could appreciate the historic corbling. They kind of pose it to us as a if you can. And so we basically have a steel beam running. It's not like a decorative wall that looks really nice for the picture. So they're keeping I mean it's a it's a dividing wall, right? It's like one apartment's on one side, one apartment's on the other side

of the brick that's on the inside. So where's that brick? this effectively right, you can't really see it in this plan, but right in here is the existing rear brick wall. Okay, that's effectively being demolished with the exception of the top cornice that will be held by a steel beam. That's the structural element. The cornice will be visible from the inside of the apartment as like a remnant of the old carriage house. But you know, you're not going to be able to see any of the original building from the outside of the building. No, just the inside.

It really really I I mean this is a new building like it's you know I'm still just done that whole like why don't we just take it down like this building is in the historic district. So they also have their recommendations. That's the reason. All right. For what it's worth, when the when the facade that is remaining is sort of reconstructed and and salvaged, a lot of it is is probably going to come down and be rebuilt. I suspect that, you know, it's hard to say now until the mason starts working on it, but the the bricks are falling out. You know what I mean? It's old age. I get it. It's just

I would be inclined to agree it's new construction substantively. Yes. I think you should I think we should vote on board should vote on if that's new construction or not. If our opinion is that it's new. Why don't you just what's before you is an application. Yeah. So you have to do the seeker and vote on whether or not the variance you can give the reasons for your for why why you're not objecting to the 356. Okay. And put those on the record. Okay. Okay. Uh before we do, I want to again confirm that we have a short environmental assessment form on file.

Yes. It's part of your pocket TV. Oh, okay. Because I don't have it here. It's here. It's showing up. Everything I'm pulling up is on there.

All right, Mr. Chairperson. uh in regard to uh uh PLZBA 2025- Z0037 as supported by the staff reports uh and uh the short environmental assessment form uh noted on the screen. Uh I ask that the board find this proposal to be an unlisted seeker action with sufficient information available for a negative declaration. A second I approve. Approve. Yes. Approve. Approve.

So So I I So it's an area variance. Correct. And I don't know. Are we are we saying that we will or will not? So you're considering whether or not to grant an area of variance. Consideration that it's new construction. We are not going to grant the variance. Are going to grant. But I didn't think he needed the variance if it was new construction. Here, I'll do it. You want me to do it? You go ahead. All right.

I'd like to make a motion that the zoning board approve PLBA 20250037 to expand and rehabilitate the carriage house in the back of 84 Street. The question arises whether this is new construction or rehabilitating a pre-existing building. I believe that the carriage house essentially is going to be new construction in which case the required unit size of 700 square f feet is a moot point

would not apply

I have everything I need in there no why don't you have one of the two. Okay. And we would vote to approve well request and well I do not believe that it would create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood um or have an adverse effect or impact on the physical environmental conditions in the neighborhood. I I second that motion uh especially with regards to the characterizations of new construction. I vote to approve. I vote to approve. Approve. Approve.

Approve. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Have a good night. Good night. What's that? I still think there's 300 I could I mean I live in a 1200 foot house.

Okay. The next business is PLCBA 20250036 244 Street [Music] [Music] just move forward. [Music] Thank you, Mr. Chairperson and members of the board for the opportunity to present tonight. My name is Jesse Bis. I'm the senior vice president for development at Communitybuilders. Uh we're here to present uh the posting hill place project. This is an 81 unit uh mixed income development. We originally had this development proposed back in 2018 where we were approved zoning variances as well as our planning approval. Uh since that time, there's a bit of a long history that I'll go through in a moment as to why this this development was delayed. Uh but we're excited to move it forward. Our organization, Community Builders, we're a 60-year-old nonprofit. Uh we have two operating properties here in the city of Troy. Uh this is a joint development effort with Unity House of Troy uh founded in 1971, another nonprofit service provider. The site is the former Seawart Equipment

site, 244 First Street. Uh this is almost 2acre lot. It is a DEC Brownfield. We have a brownfield cleanup agreement with the state uh to go to what we're hoping will be a track one cleanup, which means all uh material will be removed. Uh it was permitted back in 2018. It was renewed through 2020. We submitted a financing application to the state of New York, HCR. Uh at which point the state said until we get some sense of when the salt pile will be moving, uh we didn't want to approve this project. They felt that they were concerned about uh residents moving in and the salt pile still being there.

The salt pile. Uh fast forward to the good news that the salt pile has an end date uh and that uh all of these agreements have been worked out and the state has said they are comfortable moving forward with the development at this time. Unfortunately, intervening time we've lost our zoning and our uh planning board approvals and so we're here today to reintroduce the development and hopefully seek your approval. Again, a quick look at the timetable here. Uh this goes back to 2017. 2018 we had our approvals in place. 2020 we renewed and then uh 2023 we did demolish the site so it's been a clear site. Uh we recently have gone through a new landscaping company, cleaned it up, tried to make sure that it's uh looking good. We did some repairs on the fencing, things of that nature. Uh and our goal here is to get to a financing closing next year. So our original seeker neg and site plan approval in 2018, uh this project is essentially the same. We've made some revisions primarily in conversation with the fire department. Uh we did present this to the planning board back in April. Uh the fire department shared uh several concerns that we've since had two really constructive meetings with uh the deputy chief who I know is here today uh to try to address both construction issues and operational issues. Uh one of them was regarding uh the ability for a firetruck to get within the uh interior courtyard space and turn around in the event of a fire. Uh we've modified that plan. The other issue was the distance of the building to a power line. We've since moved the building back. It has not substantially altered the building. Uh this has also changed to a type one action due to the listing of the uh Lindy's hardware building. So uh we understand that there'll be secret review uh required. Um and there'll be a change of zoning and permitted uses that we're requesting in this variance. Uh with that introduction, I'll turn it over to my technical team who will present some of the details around what the variances are that we're requesting.

Good evening.

You can hold it.

Okay. Sorry. Kelsey Carr with Lebella Associates. I'm the civil engineer for the project. Um so we're here tonight requesting three variances from you guys. Um so to take a step back. So the first is the use variant. So when Rico Troy was adopted in 2023, the zoning of the property changed to business development which does not allow residential dwellings with the exception of two types. So they do allow live work units or conversion of existing non-residential structures to multif family dwellings. Um so under the original approvals, the the property was owned in the ind industrial district. Um, and that allowed residential dwellings above the first floor, which is what we have had designed since 2018. Um, so looking at the zoning map that we've got on the screen there, um, I think it's important to note that the hardship that was created by the the resoning is unique to this property. Um, so the entire block was reszoned. However, the six existing properties to the north of the block are existing two family and multif family dwellings which technically are not permitted in this zone. Um, however, they are grandfathered in as existing non-conforming uses. Um, the property to the south, the Lindy's hardware building, if that were to be redeveloped, it would fall into the category of conversion of an existing structure to multif family, which again is a permitted use. Um, looking further north, east and south of our block, the zones were changed to mixuse one and multif family, which both allow for multif family dwellings. So, really the change in the zoning very much impacted this specific property, which already had a previous approval for multif family dwellings. Um, so with use variances, there's a financial aspect that needs to be considered. Um so this property will require significant

upfront cost to perform the soil remediation at the site. Um it's also located within the flood plane which obviously has risks. Um so the ground floor parking proposed in the site will overcome that but you know any typical development is going to likely have ground floor development which is going to have risks. Um, so basically because of all of those upfront costs, the property as of now has a negative property value. Um, and so any other permitted uses in this zone are likely going to be financially infeasible. Um, there's also the significant investment that the applicant has already made into the site investigations, the project design, building demolition, and property maintenance, which is all stemming from a delay in funding that was outside of our control. Um, so I think the reality is that the proposed multif family use, it was previously approved at this property. It's consistent with the adjacent property uses and the broader neighborhood. Um, and it's going to address a stated need for affordable housing in Troy. Uh, the next request is for an area variance related to the setback on Ida Street. The intensity zone requires a 10- foot maximum setback where we are proposing a 27 foot setback. Um, and as Jesse had noted, um, this setback is being provided to address the fire department concerns related to, uh, the building proximity to the high voltage electric lines that are on Ida Street. Um, so we're providing that additional separation for safety reasons. Um, and it will also, if this variance is approved, it will create a public benefit allowing the opportunity to create a public green space in that area. The last request is an area variance for roof form. Um, so the code requires that large roof surfaces be interrupted by

roof features or changes in roof form to reduce the perception of large-scale buildings. Um, so we are proposing to meet the intent of the code through color and material variation. Um, as well as projections in the building wall that are designed to draw the attention away from the fourth story of the building. So, as you'll see in the rendering, um, there's lighter colors used on that upper floor to kind of have it blend back with the sky. Um, and then as you get closer to the south edge of the property where the main entrance will be, it does have darker um, colors near the the top, but that's consistent with the scale of the Lindy's Hardware building. [Music] So, I think with that, you know, what we're looking for tonight is obviously your input on those three variance requests. Um, and because of the complexity and the what is typically a can be a difficult approval for a use variance, we're hoping that uh you the zoning board would serve as lead agency for the seeker review um so that we can run the seeker review concurrently with the variance review. I'll turn it over to you guys.

You already presented to the planning board. Yes, we did. Did they they did not take any action that night just because of the concerns that were raised by the fire department. And did you ask them to uh become lead a to declare an intent to become lead agency? Yeah, I mean we did initially but because that is the typical um route that you would go but um having had further discussions I think you know knowing that we need a use variance which can be more difficult we thought it might be best that the zoning board serve in that role so that we don't have to jump back and forth between the two boards and

did you provide the planning board and eventually to us uh uh any of the u environmental documents uments relating to the brownfield agreement, the salt pile, uh what's transpired in terms of seven years of uh whatever you're doing with regards to uh affected soils, uh plans for cover of the brown field of uh it's been a while since I've dealt with that subject matter, but uh a non-permeable cover. I mean do you have you provided any documentation to any city organization with regards to those?

So the the seeker full EF that was provided to both the planning board and the zoning board has significant attachments included with that including um the letters from the DEC related to the brownfield program. Um I mean we have the environmental site assessments that have been performed. We could provide additional documentation related to the BCP. you have provided or you can provide we we've provided some of it but I mean we haven't provided like the some of the reports are very lengthy but we we can provide more if you need

well you have uh whatever approval um you indicate in 2018 it's been you know seven years uh I mean efforts have been underway presumably and so there's whatever was on file and what there should be some connection of the dots of of what's transpired. I mean, uh I I I think there's a lot we have to go through to even, you know, consider some of these steps. I mean, brownfields are significant. Now you're adding in salt pile issues.

Sure. So, two separate issues. The salt pile is uh was a condition for HCR in terms of what they viewed as sight suitability, not environmental. So they didn't like the idea of the visual impact of the salt pile and the proximity of it to the residences given effectively it's a bad look.

The bigger issue the bigger issue on the brownfields is that we have a brownfield cleanup agreement in place with the DEEC. We do regular reporting to DEEC regarding the condition of the site. the issues that we're dealing with subgrade are a historic fill in nature and so the impacts of the of the the soil underneath the site is really just an incompatible soil it's dirty soil and so our cleanup of the soil is not for example there's a major cleanup going on at the king fuel site uh it's not something that would affect portable water it's not something that would affect um things of that nature where there would be a health and safety situation that would migrate off the site and we've been working with the DEEC in terms of our reporting putting this into what is essentially an onhold cleanup.

This was not a state topography and and other issues and what cover you put over the soil. Uh I mean it's it's not just an irrelevant concern. Understood. And I think we can work with the DEEC to provide further backup documentation as to the conditions that they view the site if helpful for the board to make their decisions moving forward. Are you excavating? Excuse me. Are you excavating the contaminated soils once we receive our permitting and our financing? Yes, we're going to excavate all contaminated material from the site. And what are you replacing? Clean fill. What? To what depth?

Uh there's a chart that that we can provide for you in the brownfield cleanup program agreement. Um, but anywhere from six feet to I believe 20 feet. And my experience with salt piles are not just visual or aesthetic. They can the salt can permeate into the ground as well. So, is that an issue? To be clear, the salt pile is not on our site. The salt pile is the pile that the the rock salt pile that is up against the riverfront. Is that above? Is that uh an elevated uh uh uh location such that the rain can wash it down through? It's down. It's downgradient. It's downgradient, not upgraded.

Yeah. Couple quick questions. The salt piles were never on this physical property, correct? That is correct. They have been removed. Correct. The saw pile is still in place along the riverfront. Uh but there is an agreement in place between all of the parties including the city to have it removed by 2028. So there's an agreement that everyone is committed to to remove the salt piles by 2028. That's my understanding. I can share all the documentation I have from the city.

I'd like to see that. The other question I have goes back to what you brought up is the brownfield and where does DEEC stand on this in terms of a physical site review prior to anyone breaking ground or doing excavation? Do you have the green light in writing from the DEEC that the site has been looked at, reviewed, and you're good to go, or is that pending?

Good, good question. So, we have a brownfield cleanup agreement with DEEC, which is the document that states that we agree to clean up the site in conformance with and under the review of and uh monitoring of the DEEC. But that has not yet been done. No, it's just an agreement that becomes part of this. So, there's there's a timeline and a process of different documents that we can provide for you in a follow-up uh which include a uh we would do what they call a remedial investigation work plan which we've done. Okay. Um that states, you know, here's our investigation. Here's what we'll do. That was the remedial investigation.

Uh we went through the whole work plan, had it approved, we provided that documentation back. We've completed a remedial action plan which has been approved by DEEC. The final piece will be what they call uh waste characterization which means we go in and we do more borings and tests just to state you know on a grid this is going to this dump site, this is going to this depth to provide further detail on just the final details for construction. And then the state will provide what they call a um it's a final document that they'll provide for us that summarizes everything. It's called the decision document that states here's all the steps we took to get to this process. We've agreed for you to move forward with the cleanup. Please go ahead and clean up.

Okay. A couple other questions. You had mentioned or perhaps you had mentioned that this is a nonprofit project. Am I correct in that assumption? Yes. Our organization is a not for profofit. So is it is is Post and Kill Place or whoever owns Post and Kill Place a 501c3?

Great great question. No, we are a not for-profit sponsor who will be the owner and operator. We create a limited partnership entity that allows us to use affordable housing tax credits to develop the site. So an investor will give us money in exchange for tax credits we get allocated from. So it's a limited partnership. Yes. But the the sponsor come through the bank or the funding mechanism and they get tax credits to apply on their personal return and that's how you raise the capital to move this forward.

That's correct. Most limited partnerships in conjunction with that are also looking down the road once the tax credits and the depreciation have been utilized or run out to then resell the property or remarket the property for capital gain. Is that part of your long-term thinking? No. Um, what we would typically do with our recapitalization, we're a long-term owner and our regulatory agreement will run under what they call an extended use agreement for 50 years at least. At least at least. And so under the initial regulatory agreement, which is usually 15 years plus five. Yep.

Um, we will be operating the site ourselves and then we remove the investor and then what we typically do is put tax credits back on it and reinvest it. The investor, you buy them out. Yes. Where does the capital come to buy the investor out? It's typically debt plus exit taxes. So, we acquire the, you know, the debt that's on the property. We purchase the property for that. But we have a right of first refusal. We negotiate with the investor to purchase the property because under the LITC program, a qualified nonprofit has the right of first refusal to buy it.

If you're a licensed nonforprofit, are you going to be paying property tax and school tax to the city of Troy or are you exempt? Uh current because we would be a limited partnership we would be subject to taxes. You would be subject to paying taxes. Correct. So there would be no tax abatement. That's correct. Do you have anything in conjunction with IDA? We have not submitted anything to the IDA. We did submit back in I believe it was 2019. We were denied at that time. Uh so right now there is no pilot in place on the property. Was that the county IDA or the city IDA?

City IDA. Do you intend to go back to the city IDA or are you going to stand pat with what you've got? Full disclosure, we'd love to go back for a pilot and we're thinking we're thinking about it, but I mean we are subject to an alternate assessment means as affordable housing under the 581A program. Okay. You mentioned uh a delay in funding. Where does the delay of funding come in from the time you started this to the year 2025? What was the cause of the delay in funding? Interest rates have only gone up over the last few years, not down. And it's cost us a tremendous amount of money to hold.

Oh, I bet you I you know, we are we have multiple pre-development loans out um both for the acquisition, the demolition, and all the pre-development costs. Um, I would have loved for this to be funded in 2020 when we submitted our applications, but the state made the determination at the time, people at HCR, that uh they wanted to see more progress on the salt pile and seeing that it was moving. Progress on the what? The salt pile being moved. They knew that there was this big redevelopment plan planned for the riverfront and they did not want to put their money in first. They wanted to see progress on the whole plan before they But the salt pile still sits there today, but with an agreement in place to move, which they didn't have in to remove it by 2028. That's my understanding. Yes.

Okay. Can I ask what toxins they've found? Do you know? I don't have the exact report in front of me. I know it's primarily heavy metals, lead, uh some mercury issues, I think, if I remember correctly, arsenic, things of that nature. There's a chart of what they call soil cleanup objectives to get to track one clean up and what the action level is. And so we had higher levels across the site for for various different things. You have 81 units proposed, correct? Yes. Can you explain to me where parking comes into play?

Sure. Uh Kelsey, do you want to take the technicals?

Go back to the site plan. Um so if you look Sorry, it's delayed. If you look at the the site plan here, so the the entire U-shaped building is going to be ground floor parking beneath the building. So because we're in the flood plane, we have to build the residential above the flood plane. So the ground floor, the first floor is going to be parking and then there'll be three residential floors above. And then we have some additional um exterior spaces for visitors um ADA and EV chargers. Let me go back and make sure I grasp this. What I would think of as the first floor of the building is really going to be parking under the building that begins on floor two and goes up. Is that correct?

Yes. In this area, the flood plane is roughly about seven feet above grade. Okay. Okay. So everything below that is essentially needs to be floodproof construction which residences. It's just it's not. So the residences really begin on floor two, right? Yes. And where we would think floor one would be would be parking underneath floor two. Yes. And then you have perimeter parking in addition. Yes.

How many spots do you think that gives you? I think we're at we had done [Music] we yeah we have 85 total parking spaces and we did we prepared a TDMP uh parking assessment and transportation demand management plan which shows that for the affordable housing use 81 spaces are required so one space per unit. Got it. Um and we're providing 85. Okay. I think one of the things too which is important to note is the the reasonzoning actually allowed us to reduce sort of the number of spaces on site which was you know a neighborhood comp.

That was one of my concerns. What about electric vehicle charging stations? We are providing them. Yes, there it's a requirement of HCR now. Okay. So we're meeting the the city code requirement as well. So, I have a question for council. So, I've never heard them ask for lead agent for us to be lead agent. Is that that's not common? Is that is that okay? Is that something we don't even consider or I know it might be a dumb question, but my apologies. It's not a dumb question. Uh it is I haven't had any experience where the zoning board was asked to be lead agency. Um

what does it mean? Like what does it mean for us? Like we are the lead agents. It means that you would conduct the uh environmental review. Uh because this is a type one action, there has to be a lead agency. Notices have to be sent out to all the involved and interested agencies. 30 days have to pass at which point you can tonight. I mean, if if you if you wanted to satisfy the the applicant, you could declare your intent to act as lead agency and then if no one objected or um you know or or consented to if everyone consented to you being lead agency, then you would declare yourself lead agency after 30 days. Um and then because this you then you would conduct the environmental review most likely based on a full environmental assessment form

but that's not typical. Typically the zoning board does not it's not it's not typical for the zoning board. It is typical for the planning board and I think they did ask the planning board to to do that. So I mean you don't have to declare yourselves as lead agency. Okay. I I didn't never had anyone ask that before. That's why I wanted to ask. I have two questions for the applicant. One is uh at what point in the Brownfield program does a health and safety plan get developed? And the second question is what are your other two um uh operations in the city of Troy that you mentioned at the start?

Sure. The health and safety plan is developed with the remedial action plan. So I believe that's already developed. So that is already developed. Yes. Have you provided that to the to the board? We will certainly follow up and I have to review what was submitted with. Um our other operating properties, we purchased the Monument Square property um uh Monument Square Apartments in 2012 and we own the Tapestry on the Hudson project which is located at 599 River Street uh which we developed with uh Unity House as a partnership.

Okay. I've got a couple of questions. Uh uh you mentioned uh it being on a flood plane uh doing flood proofing. Um what kind of plan uh once you uh complete your remediation of the uh contaminated soil, what is the plan given it that you're on a flood plane for the cap or cover uh over the brownfield uh properties? So when we're complete, there'll be no cover because our intention is to go to track one cleanup, which means there's no remaining material in place that would constitute a brownfield. So the cap would just be typical concrete slab that we'd be constructing um to facilitate foundations.

And DEC is fine with that. Oh yeah. Now, if we were not to go to track one, the next step would be track two. Track two means for whatever reason operationally, you know, dewatering, inability to get to soil that we could not clean it to a track one level. If we did track two, it would be a cover uh as designed and approved by DEC, but there's no design for that right now because our intention is to remove all the soil. Depends on how the soil remediation work goes. That's right. Has planning approved the building that you showed us? the building itself.

Yeah, way back when, not we had to resubmit because it's a new

it's a new application. I think you know I Kelsey did say at the outset our intention here is to bring it to the ZVA because we understand there are you know use variances required here and before we get any further with the planning board our hope is is that the ZBA will act and provide us the ability to construct the site at which point we work through any planning issues with the planning board either concurrently or in sequence. I mean the the problem is no action can be taken by this board or the planning board until the seeker is determined and because it's a type one some agency uh will ultimately have to be lead agency whether you've uh but you don't have to be that's

we're not going okay then they'll have to go back to the planning board for that I I'd like to ask somebody a question I don't know who has the You know, I I know that there's they want to do this. There's probably some people who don't want it to happen in the neighborhood be because of its environmental badness. What else can be done there besides families or what a store? Like what are what are some of the other things that one like if we don't allow it to become a multif family site? What was it that the zoning when they when they redid the reszone Troy? What were they hoping would be there?

I think it's zoned industrial right now or light industrial the current zoning business development. Business development industrial business. So business development. So that means stores. What does that even mean? Well, I mean it could mean light industry, I believe, right? Yeah. Essentially, essentially that's what it means really.

One of the things that's that's worth, you know, understanding about the site is, you know, not all of South Troy has a 7 foot above grade limit for the flood plane. This particular area has substantially high. So there really isn't a possibility to get ground level street level commercial in this area for future development of the waterfront. So that's one of the factors.

And I'll just note also we have presented to the neighborhood associations to little Italy to Ozgood. Really strong conversations with those folks. Um continue to try to you know socialize this. We did have support letters from the riverfront association back when uh it was actively meeting before it started meeting with Little Italy. Um, so you know, we're continuing to work with the neighborhood and the community. Is there any comments? Yeah, they're doing a commercial first of the same. Good evening.

Uh, my name is Jared Behringer. I'm the deputy chief of the city of Troy Fire Department. Um I am here uh to speak out against a change of variance just because the substantial impact of what it would have on the uh neighborhood itself and also for the fire department and police department. Uh my role is I uh I do deal with code planning and development and how it will affect uh the public safety aspect of it. Um, as mentioned, they have multiple two two other properties that are being developed, but it's not just an issue that we're seeing with just community builders or or unity house or or that group in a whole. It's just we it's a unique problem that we have for affordable housing within the city of Troy. It's a unique uh population uh especially when we bring Unity House into that aspect. And I'm not speaking negatively about any of those programs, but when we put large amounts of those uh of that population into one one site, it negatively affects uh that neighborhood. Uh we're seeing that greatly at uh 752nd Avenue. Uh the old uh standard manufacturing building that's now the Lion Factory. it is negatively affecting, you know, flocks around that area with a similar population. Um, go ahead, sir.

Could you give me some examples of negative impact that you're We're talking Paul volumes in the upper hundreds on the police side, well over a 100 to 200 on the fire side and EMS side. Uh we have neighbor complaints greatly on just because you're you're taking almost like a six block square radius and putting it into one section of a uh vulnerable population. Um and we're seeing

relative to what kind of specific problems are you referencing? We're talking structure fires to EMS calls to overdoses to stabbings to assaults to um and it's not unforeseen. We're seeing this at 621 River, 599 River. We are seeing this at uh 150 River, which is brand new uh Taylor Apartments, building one. Um we see this at a similar property and similar population. Brand new Taylor. Yes. So it just went up by the bridge.

Correct. So the and I'm not speaking negatively on any part of it, but unfortunately the re it's the realism of placing this amount of uh into one section into one building. Uh 81 units. We can compare that to Lancenber Apartments. Last year we we were there 230 times on calls and that's just the fire department. Um it will it will if we continue to place these buildings into it is we are at a breaking point as the fire department

and and staffing to address this uh we are you know we're talking millions and millions of dollars to increase our staffing that we're fighting very hard to do.

Okay. Thank you very much. And it we're seeing and I want to state that I I I worked for at station six which is a block and a half from this location. I worked there for many years. My father retired out of that location. When I came on the job right prior to me coming on the job 22 years ago I lived at 376 Fourth Street which is two blocks from this location. This type of building does not fit in this in this you know in this part of the city. Um we're starting to see TAP redevelop with one and two family structures just two blocks north on the old St. James.

Uh you know so we're we're seeing other development that will fit this area. The other part of this is if we wanted to build a structure we can compare it to uh old brick the old brick building at two river street which is only a few blocks north. Last year we went there one time. One time on a call that has and that that building has much higher uh population but it's market rate. So that's how the comparison between market rate and affordable housing within the city. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of calls.

Okay. So, if I were to speak right now and my suggestion, I'm looking to deny the variance unless this was going to be a market rate or it's going to match the neighborhood in a one or two family side or light industrial. And I appreciate your time. Thank you.

I just And uh I will state that we have met on multiple occasions. They've been very receptive on anything that we can to help reduce call volume in that area. I just don't have faith that that's what's you know we have met and they're very receptive for those changes. The changes on the site plan are very conducive. So, if this building were to go forward that they will uh you know the changes in the courtyard, the changes of moving it back away from the high power attention lines, things like that have made the construction. They've worked with us to make those changes to make that building adaptable for the fire department. [Music]

Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Sam. I'm sorry. to thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Sam Chapone. I live on Ida Street. Um I live in a home that's been in our family for a hundred years and I also have multiple properties in the neighborhood. Um I'm speaking tonight kind of in summary to a letter that I had sent sent to the board. Um I was part of the comp plan planning process and and the committee that brought that um comp plan to life in the city of Troy. I'm not speaking on behalf of any of the committee. speaking solely as a single member of that committee. Um there's been some discussion tonight as to, you know, the the zoning and all of that, but I I'd really like to emphasize that the recode Troy is a result of the city's planning process through the comp plan. Um and through that process, which I was part of for close to 18 months to 24 months, I forget how long it took, we really took a hard look at, well, how can we set a vision for the city of Troy that will be sustainable over the next 20 years? And the reasoning that happened down in that area was the result of what was mentioned. It was looked at as an area to bring light industrial high advanced manufacturing technologies and processes to that area to attract people that would be interested in um good paying um middle class types of jobs to PhD level jobs in that area. The underlying intention of that, which is one reason why I was really wanted to be part of that plan, was to look at the overall tax structure within the city of Troy. At the time when the comp plan was going on, 54% of the people in the city of Troy that own properties were bearing the tax burden for the entire city of Troy. That's a major problem. Okay. Um, you know, we've got a couple rental properties. I have my own properties. I was very very interested in how could we fortify that tax base and kind of swing

the pendulum the other way. The best way to do that was through the planning that had happened there with the um with that area being designated as light industrial commercial and business with that Rico Troy picked up on that plan and that's where the resoning changes had taken place. Yes, there are properties in that neighborhood which are houses. They've been houses since the 1800s. You're not going to knock those down and put put new, you know, light industrial in there. They're grandfathered in. This site has nothing on it. Okay. So, it's a new it's new construction that should comply to the the new zoning laws that were developed as a result of the comp plan. If we veer away from that, are we going to start to do an a case by case a zoning plan for the city of Troy? Therefore, throwing out all the work of the comp plan and throwing out all the work of Recode Troy. It's a vision for the city of Troy. If we veer from that vision, where where are we headed? Right? There may be some some different avenues that we take, but we should look to that comp plan and to stick to the comp plan and to stick to the the um stick to the efforts of the Rico Troy and abide by that. As I said before, the long-term objective of that is to increase the paying taxes of businesses and everything in the city of Troy to reduce the tax burden on on the rest of us in in the city of Troy. So, I'm not again I'm not speaking for anyone who is who was on that committee. I'm speaking solely for myself. I respect the opinions of, you know, the board. I respect the the opinions of my neighbors and I respect the work that that community builders is doing. But I definitely think that it's important to stick to the plan and and abide by what Recode Troy has done with the efforts of improving the tax base in the city of Troy. You know, tonight there was there

were some discussions that that I'm I'm glad I was here tonight because I hear the tax model that's proposed with with people buying into this and the tax breaks they get and everything. I mean, that's that's really not fair. It's not fair. It really it's really not fair. And now I have another concern based on what I heard here tonight. So, thank you for educating me. I appreciate that and thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you.

Is there anyone else like online or person. Anybody online? [Music] want them to respond. I think they Yeah, anything to add or

sure. Uh, first I just want to acknowledge um the work we've been doing with the deputy chief. I think um he's brought a lot of concerns to our to the table here. We understand what he's seeing across the city. Uh we've worked on everything from the design of the building as to just for safety uh including you know one of the biggest issues he cited are false alarm calls right people smoking in their apartments people you know pulling pull cords in senior buildings things like that we're working on number one both improving the situation in the buildings we have now we've seen a year-by-year decrease on the calls uh since we placed those buildings in service um which deputy chief shared with me but also we're looking at a very significant change in one of those buildings that we have um which we think would dramatically reduce the false alarm calls um around pull cord system. So um again I you know totally valid concerns. We understand his issue and he's been a great partner with trying to figure out design uh concerns that we can resolve there. Um and again I just want to underscore the tax issue. Uh we have not applied for a pilot. We would love a pilot. We haven't applied for anything right now. uh and certainly if there were conditions around getting the approval where we would not apply for a pilot, we wouldn't apply for a pilot. So our intention here is not to overburden uh you know the taxpayers here by getting a sweetheart deal. Uh our intention really is to just invest nearly $60 million in the city of Detroit. [Music] No, you you can't

can't do it. You would have to I mean I guess the first request is that you declare intent to act as lead agency. So you do not I'll do the role. Uh I I I agree with the uh decision not to be lead agency. I don't think just as a qualification of that I don't think we have sufficient information to even think about that. I agree we should not be lead agent. I am not in favor of being a lead agent on this. I'm not in favor also.

Nor I [Music] Because you you can't take any other action, official action because we can't vote because we don't have seeker. No, correct. We're done. That they'll have to I guess you'll have to go to the planning board.

Yeah, I think I understand. And I respect that, you know, what you're saying and I'm maybe it's a conversation to be had after this with uh with planning staff as to what exactly we're what the route is. Um just because our concern is you know the zoning variances are first and foremost. So if it's a coordinated review under seeker by the planning board and the zoning board be an involved agency, what would the process be? Will we need to get site plan approval before the variances or we get referred back to the zoning board from the planning board? You could get referred back to from the planning board. Okay. But but seeker would have to be done first.

Okay. All right. That's fine. And and my suggestion is uh you've provided a lot of uh uh references to communications and submissions to DEEC uh that I don't think we have or in as many of those documents which I think we need. Understood. We'll certainly provide all that documentation for the coordinated review. I appreciate everybody's time tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If there's no further business, there is. We wanted, for the record, we wanted to um say that we start meeting at 5:30. Yeah. Oh, yes. In August. In August. Starting in August. Yes.

Good with that. Uh they want to I Why don't you Why don't you resolve to If you have a motion to I thought we made a motion at the last. Did we Did we I don't remember. I'm sorry. Resolve to make a motion. I think the last voted last time on this last month you made a motion for that was it passed. Yes. Yes. With flying colors 5:30 in August. Okay. So 5:30 in August. Just you're just reminding everybody the board in the email separately from the the um um is there anything we have to do for

documents you know in in a reminder hit us you know earlier just people will be calling. Yeah, I'm probably going to join you tonight if you'll have me. I didn't frustrate you too much tonight. [Music]