Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

So everybody knows [laughter] Hello Paul, what are you working on? Go ahead. Lord,

glad to call the meeting to order tonight on Wednesday, uh, January 7th. Will, would you call a roll call for us? First Dunes present. Zachary Carhe here. Steven Miner here. Paul Wright here. De Martino here. Ride pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. We go and make a motion to adopt last meeting. I make a motion to adopt the minutes from our last meeting. I'll second that. Roll call. Roll call. I approve. I approve. Approve. Approve. Approve.

We have on two items on our agenda for tonight. The first one is PLZBA 2025 0058 60 113th Street uh seeking a uh area variance. Please uh state your name, talk to the microphone um address and the relationship to um variance.

Thank you. Good evening chair, members of the board. My name is Brian Siverly with Varity Engineering. We represent the applicant as well as the owner at the mayor's from Energy Catalyst Technologies. Um again, the address where the variants are being sought this evening. Appreciate that a little better. Yes, thanks.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for the v visual clue there. Uh again, the address is where the variances. Uh just to make a correction, variances. We're seeking a number of variances, not just one this evening. Uh the address is 6113th Street uh in Troy. Um a little bit of background uh about the property itself. Um it's zoned mixeduse one with a neighborhood to uh intensity overlay. Um the site was once home to Uncle Sam Pipe for a number of years. Uh went uh went vacant uh for a small period of time and was um reoccupied and reused by Energy Catalyst. um that happened uh by a series of events. Uh one is the applicant received an area variance in 2023 in July of 2023 uh for the building size the max building uh size gross floor area and the uh MU excuse me in the neighborhood too uh is 2500 square foot the building as it lie um which predates zoning uh was about uh 18,000 square feet. So, the applicant received a variance back in 2023 from the balance between 2500 and the existing uh size of the building as what it is today. Again, the use is currently light industrial. The applicant again [clears throat] in 2024 received a special use permit uh from the city's planning commission at the time. Uh that special use permit was valid for two years and is planned to expire in March of 2026. Um the project that's in front of you this evening is a proposed improvement. The that project is in front of the planning board and uh that has been deemed a complete application and as you're aware that board can't take any further action with reviewing the project as the project as it's shown on the site plan. Uh obviously needs some area variance entitlements in order to move forward in that approval process. Um the lot itself

is 2.5 acres. Uh it's irregular irregularly shaped. Uh it fronts 119th Street along with 8th Street Alley. It also has a small amount of frontage on uh 9inth as [clears throat] well. And and again it's principally built with uh two two buildings uh totaling 15,411. That's the footprint size. I know I related to 18,000 earlier. That's the gross floor area. The building has more gross floor area than it does footprint as measured from above. Um we really have no streams, no water bodies or wetlands. Um access is uh from 9inth as well as 113th. Today only 113th is is principally used. Uh site served with uh municipal water and sewer along with private utilities and the abutters are generally residential all residential in this area with the exception of uh of the bike trail as you know um um to to the east. So um are you able to bring the site plan up? I'll I'll go into the the project quickly and just indicate to the board what what it is the applicant's looking to do

uh and where the variances are being sought.

That's you can stop there. That's the existing condition survey. We'll have you jump to the site plan in just a second. um if I may for the board um again the frontage of the property 9th a uh it's gated today 113 uh where the principal access generally is uh the way the building was built how it was built and what it was used for originally this is a loading area so it's kind of unique that we have a commercial and or industrial building with with loading that that occurs uh within the rightway just how things were done before and again here are the two different buildings that stand today. One principal, one accessory building, and the rest generally being served with asphalt. Can you uh please bring up the site plan when you get a chance?

Is that above or below that document? Do you remember?

There you go. It's good enough. We'll let it fill in. Uh the orientation of this map is a little bit different than the survey you just saw. Uh, North is going to be up on this page again. 113th Street is here. 9inth A is here. Here are the two existing buildings shading in shaded in a lighter color of salmon, if you will. The proposal uh that the applicant is seeking to do is add a 10,000 square foot addition keyed onto the back of the building as such. in addition to that um is proposing to add um a small amount of new impervious asphalt on the north end to accommodate um for the growth and the need for additional parking um for some other reports that were submitted in planning. As you can kind of tell uh part of this addition would would remove um the need to load and unload materials within the rightway. uh this facility is being used to the the applicant is investing in automation. So further advancing uh the the tenency in in Troy and looking to grow the business with automation and so this is going to be uh a metal building housing more uh uh equipment to do uh assembly of of the product as well as you can kind of indicate uh where those trucks are. So, we're proposing to move the loading uh with this project out of the rightway and interior the parcel um which is well wanted by the neighborhood. I I would to assume so again it's a 10,000t addition revised loading area. Um we're going to remove that loading area. Uh we are going to provide for some additional parking on the north end. Uh the proposal is to keep the 9inth A gate closed. We don't need it. As you can see, the building addition is going to cut off any kind of access around the site and this is going to be proposed to

be banked parking for future employees as as the owner uh ramps up production in the number of years. Um there has been a TDMP submitted to the planning process which governs you know what the uses is, what the uses are, excuse me, and the the parking and trip generation for it. And you know, lo and behold, why are we here this evening? So, uh this improvement or this proposed improvement uh kicks off the need for um uh five different variances and and although it sounds like a lot on paper, I'll just quickly highlight what those are going to be for the board. Uh the first one is max gross floor area allowed in the zone. So, we talked about earlier, excuse me, not the zone, the intensity. The uh neighborhood to intensity uh has a max 2500 square ft footprint. Uh again the building as it lies today is there with an area variance for the balance between what it is and we are proposing to increase the total gross floor area on the property to 28,518 and we are seeking a relief of 26,018 square ft. Uh, I do have an asterisk next to that relief figure because I'm comparing that number to the 2500 and I do want to point out that the property does carry an area variance with it to the current size of 18. So, we're really just adding 10, but as it relates to how the zoning code looks, that's what it is. The second variance that the applicant requires is a front yard setback. And I'll explain that the front yard setback uh in this area is a minmax. The min is zero foot and the max being 20 feet. The building as it sits today is non-compliant. Clearly, it was built and predates the current zoning. Um, and the applicant doesn't need the the addition on the front. The the applicant needs the addition onto key onto the rear uh for numerous technical reasons as well as it opens up the interior of the site

for parking, loading, and access and and other things as well. So again, the way the building department is determining this is although this building addition is keyed on to the back of the building, uh its projection into the property's front yard is why we need to see uh seek that variance. And so that dimension is 136.5, max being 20. We are seeking relief for 116 1/2 ft. Same goes for the sideyard setback in this zone. And it is a min max zero min 15 ft max and where the building needs to be situated. Clearly we're picking up that south wall and continuing that in the east direction. Um and we uh do not want to comply uh to the zoning and I'll get there in a minute. Uh accessory parking. Um so although we generally don't treat alleys as rightaways or excuse me as rightaway frontages, we we are as it relates to this project. um the way it sits in the building department's determination. So we are applying the front yard setback along the one get technical on you right the projection of the short axis of 113th would be the property's true frontage everything from this point north along its alley is it frontage we don't think so but we are calling it frontage and hence we are applying the front yard setback along that entire uh course of the property line. This proposed small bank of parking here violates uh a 30-foot setback to the front yard. So, I wanted to point out it's to the front yard, but it's to an alley. And last but not least, a variance for transparency. Um, and just from to familiarize you all with what that is, it is a uh generally a window code. So, uh the zoning code did not want uh building facade from from left side all the way to right side of a building. And so therefore uh a percentage of windows or transparency is required along that

building facade. Again this is a warehouse and we don't propose that we want to have the transparency. Um and so we're asking for the transparency variance as well. So again those are the five variances. It's all kicked off by what the applicant is looking to do by improving the parcel and where the building is situated. Um, I know you do have a a zoning board of appeals addendum where what we've done is uh place on the record um factual evidence and justifications for these variances. Um, unless the board has any specific questions about that, we can we can get into it. I won't uh read that line by line, but I think in general what I wanted to communicate to the board on this one is we don't believe that following the strict application of the zoning on this parcel actually makes sense. If we dive into the applicability of the neighborhood 2 standards along with the mixeduse one, uh these zoning codes are meant for streetscape properties, right? zero foot min, 20 foot max. They want the be they want you to turn the corner on the sidewalk and have the build building be between zero and 15 feet. It's a streetscape as well as the transparency items, right? Um and so where where are we? Well, we're not anywhere in Troy where generally this would apply on fourth, third, or any kind of business areas. We we front an alley. We're behind a bunch of single family and we're bet next to a bunch of single family and we're just west of the Uncle Sam bike trail. Um, this property does not want to be developed by having this building cut off the property and front the alleyway and be very close to a setback where there's not sidewalk networks and people walking and shopping and things like that as well. So, uh, and the same goes with the sideyard setback. So, that's kind of about the the the front and the same with the side. I mean, the these are residential

properties that have been um cohabitating with commercial and industrial uses for quite a long period of time. And if we were to comply, this building would have to slide all the way to the 15t setback line. And we don't think that's the right thing for the neighborhood either. We don't think we think there's actually going to be greater concerns for safety, noise, welfare of the public, and the surrounding character of the neighborhood if we actually comply. Especially 8th Street. I mean, if we were or a street alley, if we were to slam that building 20 or even zero feet off the lot line, not only does it not make the site work internally, it just doesn't fit. Um, which really comes to the big one, right? Certainly, uh, the building size is substantial, but we want the board to strongly consider, you know, what this site is. It's it's a large parcel, uh, in this zone, so it's kind of unique being about 2.5 acres and and what the current uses are. you know, the city and the applicant have certainly invested u in Troy and to wanting to put a headquarters here and they're certainly looking to grow and double down on that and um this is what they need on this facility to to support that. So, um with that, I'll turn the over to the board um for any member comments at this time.

You said 8th Street, but you meant AVAB, right? AVAB Alley. Thank you. I don't have any questions. I've driven by your proposed site twice. I think your plan makes a lot of sense. I think it's well thought out. Just hopefully you can clean up some of that brush between the main building and the end building. Good luck to you with it. Thank you. Would you mind pointing out the area that you're referring to between maybe go to a photo

the main building with the loading dot as you go north to the apparent old house or office I think on 113 only pictures might be there's a lot might be photo two I can't see that. Yeah. Uh, if you can blow a photo too, will I've had cataract surgery. It's a blur. Well, I I don't want to slow the meeting down. I can get with you afterwards or we can just make a note. Fine job. I think you thought it through. I just one comment, that's all. Thank you.

Uh, I have a question. Um uh in um the materials um it's indicated that the development plan will not disturb greater than one acre and will not be subject to a DEEC Speedy's coverage under GP025-001. Why will it not be subject to that coverage? Uh simply because the disturbance will be under one acre and that's where that permit coverage has justification. Thank you.

We'll we'll open it up to the public. Is there anybody at public who' like to um come up to the podium and have comments? Anybody online? Anybody online? Will I check out now? Do we make a motion for the secret? Yeah, nobody online.

Make a motion for the seeker, please. Uh oh yes. Um Mr. Chairperson, uh, in regard to PLZBA 2025 D-0058 as supported by the staff reports, I ask that the board find this proposal to be an unlisted seeker action with sufficient information available for a negative declaration. Second call. Uh, uh, I I abstain. I approve. I approve. I approve. I approve. Passes.

I like to see you do them independently. Okay. Okay. So, that was the question I was going to ask. Do you need them separate? The variances separate. Oh, okay. Um then I'd like some clarification on the the the five types I have indic I have written down um uh number one the maximum floor uh number two the front setback number three the accessory parking setback um four I'm a little unclear I think that was another setback number three was a side setback do you have the uh agenda

I All five are listed out. Where is I got it. Yeah, they're all right there, Evie. Okay.

Oh, I see it. Okay. So, um All right. Um, I move that the board approve the area variance uh well the first area of variance uh to increase the existing building area of 18,528 square ft by constructing an additional 10,000 square ft structure. Um the first point, the variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted. Um, and I'll probably be repeating several of these uh um reasons, but uh the general description of the removal of the loading area uh parking um not affecting sidewalk safety, noise um uh for that uh uh satisfies the first uh the second the benefit sought by the application by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance as the applicant indicated. Uh it is a very large struct large area and um I think the uh applicant uh did a very thorough job in trying to um frankly uh minimize uh the uh amount of changes that are needed.

I'll second that. All we need is All we need is Do we Do we vote on H1 or H1? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh uh I vote to approve. I abstain. I vote to approve. Approve.

Approve. Okay. Um the second variance area variance to uh permit a front setback of 136.5 ft where a maximum of 20 ft is permitted. Relief is sought for 116.5 ft. Um the first component uh um uh the variance will not uh create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted uh as I uh previously indicated. There is the removal of the loading area. There is parking that has been um arranged for um and uh not affecting the sidewalk. safety, noise, uh various components have been um considered and addressed. Uh number two, for approval, um the benefit sought by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance again because of the size and unique uh um makeup of that uh location.

I'll second that. Uh I vote to approve. I abstain. approve approve

approve the third area variance that I move to approve um uh will allow setbacks of 70.1 ft on the southern side and 95.5 ft on the northern side for the proposed addition where a maximum side setback of 15 ft is permitted requiring relief of 55.1 ft and 80.5 ft respectively. Um first uh uh component or um item uh the variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted. Again, there is the removal of a loading area. There is parking that's addressed. There is um uh not affecting the sidewalk area. Uh safety, noise, and uh other issues uh have been taken care of. Uh the second uh point uh the benefit uh sought by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance and that again is due to the size of the u uh location and its uh uh u unique makeup. Second.

Uh vote to approve. Abstain. Vote to approve. Vote to approve. Approve.

Uh the fourth area variance. Uh I move to approve. Uh is the variance to allow parking front setback of 13.5 ft where a minimum front setback of 30 feet is required. relief of 16.5 feet requested. Uh first component for an area uh variance. Uh the variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted. In particular, um this uh uh uh parking uh arrangement will um not uh create an undesirable change. In fact, it will create a desirable change. Um and uh for the second component, the uh uh benefit sought by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance. Again, due to the unique size and makeup of this uh location.

Second, uh vote to approve. Abstain. Yes. Approve. And the fifth Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Oh, [laughter] sorry. Approve. We're ready. [clears throat]

My apologies. Getting caught up in the many uh variances. Okay. The fifth and final uh area variance. Uh I move that the board approve uh is the variance uh from the minimum ground floor residential use requirement of 50%. No transparency is provided on the ground floor. Relief of 50% is requested. Uh for the first uh u item uh that needs uh would need to be addressed. The variance will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted. Again, uh the uh effect of the um uh transparency um will help and be a a good situation for the uh for the area. Um and will not create any undesirable change. um and just uh I think most of the operations anyways are kind of within the um business area. So um uh the second component the benefits sought by the applicant may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance again due to the unique size and nature of this uh location.

Second. I vote to approve. Abstain. Approve. Vote to approve. Approve.

You're all set. Thank you, chair. Thank you. Good evening. Good luck. Good luck.

Thank you. Okay, our second order of business tonight is BLZBA 20250060. 63004 6 a

and you like to take yes state I'm Daniel Hburg from HSburg and Hburg in Albony New York I'm here today representing um Wally Alvara with me also is Dan Sanders the building architect who can answer any questions about the building um I I [clears throat] think the best way to start is to ask Wall-E to address pull that mic in front of you.

Wally to address the hardships that he's identified. Good evening everyone. Well, if it's easier, you can take the mic right at the stand. If it's easier, you can just hold it.

Okay. I'm going to feel like I'm singing a song. All right. Good evening, chair um chairpersons and members of the board. U my name is Waldo Vor. I am the owner of 30004 um 6th Avenue. I'm um respectfully requesting approve approval to complete the seven unit residential um conversion at the property. Um before purchasing this property. Yeah. You know what? Put it in your hand like you are saying. Yeah, that'd be better.

Um before purchasing this property, it was in near um condemned condition. After reviewing um with my lender, I was advised that this rehabilitation um as a three family wouldn't work. So I went to the building department and asked what can I do with this um particular building and they told me that this building could be converted into a seven family dog. Um I was advised that um was not financially able with a total investment near half a million dollars. The permitting use would not support financial or reasonable return as a three family. The current use I work directly with the city with my architect and licensed plumbers and licensed electricians. seal plans for a seven unit and all require approvals would issue relying on those approvals. We submitted all the permits um the application all insurance that we require by myself as the owner and by the licensed electricians that are here today. Uh by the licensed plumber also that are here on my behalf today and by the licensed sprinkler company that are um here on my behalf today as well. Um, this is all my a lot of these people work for me. Um, and they a lot of them are my tenants and support to to show that I'm a good landlord. I done everything correctly. I submitted a permit. Um, my architect Danny's also here. Um, we submitted everything. There was axe. I own several properties in the city of Troy. I love Troy. Um, I have

properties that are right now and um, I'm using them as um, land bank right now until I complete all my other projects. Um, you could look it up. I I brought everything evidence, you know, I I've been doing this for a long time. I'm also a civil service worker, retired from the board of ed as as a cleaner, clean toilets for a living and um, now I'm doing real estate and I love it. Um, I'm very passionate about it. Um, this is amazing to me for just all the support. Thanks. And, um, yeah, I just I I I did everything right, guys. I I bought pictures to show um I'm about 50% done with this project. And um, there's a lot of money invested. I invested over $300,000 into it. I brought pictures to show the work that's been done. everyone here that could vouch for me and I just want to move forward with this project and complete it. I have several properties in Troy. I have about 50 in. I have over 25 in Skenctity. I've never had an issue with any city agency, never in my life. And now there has my family. My grandmother made sure of that. And um so I'm just here asking what was already given to me, the approval, which will I believe the permit's here. that was issued. Um, if you could pull that up for me, please.

I don't have the queue up right now. I have the package of stuff that you submitted with your application, but I can There's also that.

And there's also we did a traffic analysis. This shows there's no impact um to, you know, converting this from a a current three to four family dwelling to a seven. There's no impact in parking whatsoever. Um, I currently own four other properties on the same block. Um, 3072, 3028, 30006, the adjacent property right next door to it. You know, on that block alone, I own four other properties. Um, this is what I do for a livelihood. As a kid, I wanted to do this and um, that's it. I'm just I'm here in front of you because I did the right thing and I've been doing the right thing my whole life. It's It's unfortunate. It's tough. But everyone behind me shows that when you do the right thing, you get right results. I know my grandmother's proud of me. I know my mother's proud of me and they always told me to stand up for what's right and that's all I did. I did everything right. I've done nothing wrong here. I apologize for for the way I feel, but I'm a I'm big I'm a I'm [clears throat] big on doing the right thing. You know, Will could tell you every time I see him, I greet everybody in this building. I know Will. I know I know Bill. I know Carlo. I know Aldo everywhere I go, every building agency, they know me well. They know me by my first name. Boy, am I lying or not?

I would say that you are are well known around city hall in the building department and elsewhere.

Thank you. Thank you. I hold my head up high cuz my family could hold up their head high. I mean, if this doesn't show that, then I don't know what does. This isn't right. But you know what? I'm gonna keep fighting. I submitted my permits. I submitted my insurance. I submitted all my plings. Again, I I thank everyone for being here. My the sprinkler guy, Matthew Sprinkler, call. We installed a 2-in water line for the sprinklers, which was required. Any three family above, you have to do that. We did that. We digged up the street. I paid all my taxes. All my taxes for all my properties occurring. I'm not behind on one property. Sometimes I don't know how I do it. Naomi, thank you. Um, she's my assistant in the office. Um, and she helps me a lot. I went around today. Um, you have to bear with me. This is my first time doing this. Um, I'm trying to do my best. I have a petition from 20 people. I did this today. I just thought of this from everyone on that block approving it. I have videos also recording of the people saying that they don't oppose. Well, I know I wasn't able to email you this, but you could pass it around. This is everyone's name and address.

I have videos to to to prove um all those signatures are valid. Um, again, thank you for hearing me out everyone here. And um, forgive my my emotional, but this is what I'm passionate about, not only just real estate. I wanted to do this as a kid and um, I'm doing it. And um, this is what dreams are made of. And um, God bless America and God bless you. Thank you. I don't know whether or not uh the folks received this list of uh hardships that was uh printed by Wall-E. I don't know whether or not um they got copies of it, but this lays out the financial hardships that this brings because there are not only construction loans, there's bridge loans, there's all all the loans that are all based upon seven units. If the seven units can't get built, the project will fail. that document

that document uh was not received till this afternoon. It was disseminated to the board members by email um but it was not um part of the packet that was submitted and reviewed by staff.

I have um pictures of the current condition of property pass. Yeah, pass them out. Pass them around. Also, the permit's also there just

Yeah. Good evening. Uh Danny Sanders, Harris Sanders Architects, and we've been working on this project and about five other projects with Wall-E. uh throughout the Capitol region and he takes a building that nobody would take honestly and makes something happen with it. And I think for a city like Troy that unfortunately has a lot of buildings, a lot of ex buildings in Albany as well, um that's really important for anybody taking on a project. is the quality of his contractors is excellent and overall we've been very impressed with starting a project and getting it done. Some people unfortunately aren't able to do that and while he's been doing that it's they're challenges. These buildings are falling apart. There's you walk in there and you can't even walk through the building um safely. and his framers are amazing in terms of getting a project safe and keeping intact the history of Troy, history of Albany. Um, we've done one in Skenctity as well and we feel as architects in the region for over 60 years, those are really rewarding projects and we look forward to doing many more. Thank you.

Thank you. Is there anyone else out in the public that would like to speak? Were there any um emails submitted?

I think they're coming up. So we we need to talk to them first, right? You know what? Hold up. Hold on. Hold on one second. M before you speak, can we ask? We the board need to continue speaking to Waldo. We will invite you back up. Okay. We didn't know if you're looking for the fors or against though. That's what we're at. All right. E either one. But we we're gonna finish with our board. While while while you please come back. [laughter] Sorry,

we skipped a beat there. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I think the board has some questions for you, Steve. Okay. There's been a lot of history that you've presented tonight. Thanks. I'm a little confused.

So, I've got questions and if you want to answer them, that'd be great. If you want your attorney to answer them, that's fine. According to tonight's agenda, we're dealing with a variance request to convert what was a previous three unit building into a 7 unit residential structure and that requires a use variance. Right. Um I Sir, your name is

Oh, my name is Steve Miner.

Steve Miner, sir. Um, as I stated, I submitted all my documents to the building department on behalf of my architect, which spoke, Danny Sanders. Um, I also submitted sprinkler diagrams to the department of building. I also submitted my plumbers's information, which is here as well. I also submitted my electrician information, which is here as well. my insurance. I submitted all documents that were asked of me, sir. Once I did so, I have the email trail that the the the building departments approved that building from a three family to a seven family. The permit will show that every again, as I stated, everything I've done step by step has been whatever is asking me is what I did. I've done nothing wrong here. I'm not saying you did.

Okay, that's [clears throat] not my question. Okay, so maybe I can ask corporation council the same question. According to tonight's agenda, we're dealing with a variance request to convert a previous three-unit building into a seven unit residential structure which requires a use variance. That's correct. Okay. I'm not saying submit whatever you say you submitted, sir. I'm just

No, no, I know. Again, I'm just trying to understand. Ladies and gentlemen, this is my first time doing this, you know. I understand. I got a lot of questions. I just want to build buildings. That's it. And make homes for people. I have homes for everyone here. You know, they're all here. These are individuals that work for me. These are individuals that they that reside with me. Lamont, how long have you been with me? Am how long have you been with me? Please stand. bring this back here. The board has questions if you Yeah, the answer is that it's been determined that a user

to try to confine yourself to answering the questions that are asked. Okay. Well, the first question's been answered. We're here for a use variance. That's correct. Thank you. Moving along. In addition to the use variance that we've just established, when I read the documents and the requests for the variance, the average minimum gross floor area permitted per dwelling is 700 square feet.

Correct. So that would suggest while 584 square feet is proposed, we're 16 square feet short. Correct.

Thank you. Now, in December of 25, there were some members from the public who appeared during the public access portion of the zoning board meeting. And there were concerns, there were questions, there was some opposition to this project. In addition to those comments in December, it's my understanding that emails were received today in addition to the December comments. And have they been read into the record?

Well, I'm sorry. Uh, yes. They've been read into the record. Can you repeat that, Steve? I'm sorry. I'd be happy to repeat. Yes. Back in December of 25, we had a zoning board meeting. There were members of the public who appeared and voiced their concerns or their opposition or their problems with approving this project.

Yes, those are in the public record. In addition to those public access comments, it's my understanding that there were additional emails received today communicating other concerns from other parties. Have those emails been read into the record? They are in the public record. I can't speak to whether or not there's overlap between who the senders of those comments were that we received today and who spoke at

those emails that were received today. Should they be read individually into the record or is it sufficient to assume they are part of the record? So, we don't usually require that they be read into the record individually. the board has access to those emails and uh I don't know when they [clears throat] were received precisely but we we normally presume that you have reviewed the record prior to here. No, I'm just they were received before 12:00 today which is the which is the cuto off. Um all public comments that are submitted in writing appear as part of the meeting minutes.

Okay. So, [snorts] yes. Now, let's talk about some background information. Mr. Avora, you're an experienced contractor, right? Yes. So, buying buildings, selling buildings, rehabbing buildings, renovating buildings, that's something you've been doing a while. Been doing now for over eight years. I can't hear you, sir. Over eight years, sir.

All right. Thank you. Now, this question is to the corporation council for the city. Mr. Morsy, did the city of Troy amend or change its zoning laws in the 2023 year? Was there an update or a revision? In April of 2023, the city repealed its prior zoning ordinance and passed a new zoning ordinance. So, April of 23, new zoning ordinance goes into effect, right? That's correct.

All right. What is the current zoning as per units in a building for the address of record 3046th Avenue? Is it zoned for either a two or three or is it zoned for a seven unit building? I believe it's zoned for I believe that that is a two family zone. Um so it got reszoned. It in 23 it was reszone. Yeah. I'm not sure it was reszoned. I don't know the prior status. All right. But from 23 on it certainly been

it's been a two family two family. Okay. And and I don't know that whether this property was grandfathered in any respect. That's fine. I'm just trying to make sure I get everything I need. Somebody mentioned a fire. Did you own the building when there was a fire, sir? No, sir. So, the fire occurred in the building prior to the time you bought the building? Yes, sir. Did you buy the building from the individual or the party that owned it after the fire?

That I I don't know, sir. Okay, fair enough. When did you buy the building? What year? It was twer late 23. No, early 24. Sorry. Early 24. All right. So there's a fire, you don't own the building when there's the fire. You buy the building after the fire and you buy the building early in 2024. Correct.

Okay. When you bought the building, did you get a mortgage for the purchase of the building or did you pursue title insurance? I did what's called a bridge loan. Um explain what that means to

Sure, I'll be I'll be more than happy to, sir. So, a bridge loan, what it is is you you go to a private lender um and you present the per the property you want to buy and you tell them what you have plans to do with it. The current property is say, you know, in need of rehabilitation. So, they provide a bridge from you to get it from one point to a turkey project. As you know, this property is was condemned in really really bad shape, as my architect pointed out. That's pretty much what I do. I buy buildings that people would just walk by them and be like, "Well, what is this?" And um I turn them into something what I call beautiful. And um and that that's what I again that's what I love to do. And

so you didn't go to a regular lending institution like a commercial bank and get a mortgage or buy title insurance? Oh, yeah. This is a private lender. It's it's it's a a financial institution. They they do a background check. They do a credit report. They do everything. I've been doing this for a while. Listen to post collateral. Yeah. My experience. My experience. I'm also a real estate broker, too. Do you have to pledge other properties as collateral on this? No. No. No. No. Okay. I'm just trying to understand and throw the needle. That's all.

Sure. Sure. If title insurance was not used through this bridge loan, did you think of buying it independent of the bridge loan? Well, I don't buy any building independently. I I use the the bridge loan because I leverage my my assets. So, if I the business I am, you have to, you know, use leverage for everything. No, I understand that. But did you purchase title insurance? Absolutely. Okay. And this whole issue of zoning or two three family versus seven units never came up in the title insurance. No sir.

Okay. Now you submitted blueprints or design plans to the city of Troy. Correct. And you gave them to code or building? Yes, sir. re I dropped physically dropped them off and email as well. This is how they requested. Okay. When did you actually start work on the building?

Um I'm going to have to say um as soon as they issued the permit, I I went ahead and started gutting the the building as far as um they gave me two permits. So they gave me a permit um basically to convert a current existing for the three family to a seven family and also they gave me a permit for um I believe it's called the when you block the road for a dumpster. All right.

Right. So they provided that as well. Um so my team and I we gutted the building as you as you mentioned the building was burned so we had to basically demolish all the wood. is there. All the joistices, they were no longer good. We had to remove all those. Um, stabilized the building. Uh, which we did. And, um, we put all new joistices, all a new roof. Um, we supported the foundation. We underpinned it. Um, again, we brought in a a 2-in water line for the sprinklers. So, all that was done. Sir,

one of the things that came up at the public access in December was [clears throat] I'll use the term squatters or vagrants and Troy police being called for issues. Did you own the building at that time or was that prior to you buying the building? Um, since I owned the building, no. Um, thank God there's been no squatters.

Okay, we had this on the agenda for December 3rd. You weren't here and I was curious as to why. Um, my apologies. I had a family emergency. Um, I'm originally from the city. I've been now here four years. Happy four years. I love it here. Um, but I had a family emergency to attend to and um Okay, man. Again, I apologize to the board members. Family emergency. You had a family emergency.

Did code ever issue a stop order?

No, sir. Not at all. No. Right now, my permit is active. Uh, as my permit for the construction is active. My permit for the plumbing is active. My permit for sprinkler is active. My permit for electric is active. My permit for all construction for 30004 6th Avenue Troy, New York 12180 is fully active and approved by the city of Troy. One of the issues that came up in emails that were communicated today and the same concerns were voiced at the December meeting has to do with parking and traffic. If you have seven units, have you provided plans for Austri?

Yes, sir. We I submitted a traffic analysis which shows no impact. Um um I believe you have that. That is not my question. The TDMP was submitted I think the day before yesterday after hours. So it was not has not been formally reviewed with respect to this nor would it necessarily be brought forward in this. I'm not sure about that Rick because [clears throat] of the nature of the variance whether actually more of a planning consideration. Okay that's fine. I'm just going back to touch on issues that had been raised that that's fine. I'm I'm more than happy to answer any questions if I can. I I'll be more than happy to pass the Lord to Dan.

One of the concerns that came up in December, and I don't really understand this, so maybe you can explain it. One or two of the people brought up an issue of use or access to a gang way between the building in question and another building. I don't understand this. Any comments what that means? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, sir. I'm not sure what I'm asking. [laughter] There was Has anyone answered

express over use or access to a gang way or an alleyway or a walkway between the building in question and another building? As um sir, I own the building next door to it, the adjacent building as well. My this is a duplex. So this would be between the ne the next property up. It would be the next property up. Yes. Not immediately next door. Yes. This is one half of a duplex. Okay. Yeah. 3004 and 3006. Correct. Right. Yes. Those are both mine, sir.

So where is this gang way located? To the to the north of 3006. Is it on 6th Avenue or is it on what is it? Middle. I'm going from memory here, but I believe it would be on Sixth Avenue. All right. I still don't get that. Let's talk about garbage cans, collection of garbage, storage of cans, seven units. Where would they be kept or maintained?

Those would be kept in the basement, which all tenants would have access to. There's going to be um u a good amount of garbage cans there in the basement for all the tenants and one and all my units that are above five family. I keep one of my maintenance guys which I bought today. So I house one of my team members to live there rent free to maintenance all my buildings and he's also here today to confirm that. So all the units to answer your question sir will be all the garbage cans will be in the basement um and a private storage locked up um vented outside so that way there's no smell and on garbage day on trash day the individual that works for me that lives there will take out the garbage. That's his responsibility. That's what he's paid for and that's why he gets the free housing. Lucky him, right?

Great. Last question then be quiet. I'm comfortable now. Be comfortable. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm very comfortable. Understand this. Do you think, and I have not had time to really get into this, would a three or a four unit work for you in terms of cash flow or return or fiscal analysis? as opposed to the proposed seven unit.

Um, good question. Um, [clears throat] that's that's um actually why we're here. That that's a that's a good question. So, a three family would not work. Um, that's why when I came to the building department and I asked what could this before I even got into contract, I asked um the building department, what can this um building be converted to? because again I've been doing this for quite some time and they told me that yes it's a current three to four family and it could be converted. So I did my research I spoke with my lender and my lender said yes as a seven family if you get the approval it works. A three family would not work because I already invested $300,000 without the purchase. I bought the pictures to show as you pointed out this building was burned down. It was I mean in horrible shape. Well, I believe that

horrible shape. I had to do everything new. All new stud studs, new new roof, um new capping, new new water systems, new sewer. Um and I brought all the documentation to support that as well. So, this 300,000 you're alluding to does not include the purchase price.

No, sir. Not at all. No. I have to in order for um when you make a contract with a licensed electrician, they require 50% up front. When you make a contract with a licensed plumber, they require 50% off front. When you make a contract with any individual that's here, framer, um which also, thank you for being here, too. um you have to give them 50% up front and that is not refundable you know cuz it's it's not you know it's it's at this point it's it's my hardship it's unfortunate um I'm not pointing any fingers you know it's it's unfortunate what happened I was given a permit I presented everything asked of me and as soon as they gave me the permit I I remember like yesterday I said guys I got the permit Seph, I I text you a permit. I was happy. Carl, I did the same to you. Mark, the same. Danny, which is also here, my kitchen guy. I I was ecstatic. I said, "We're doing something great for Troy, you know." Um, and as I own also a property on 731 River, which Danny and I are submitting 12 units for that one. Um, I I'm in negotiations with another property, a huge lot, which is down the block from my property. So, I I could oppose where if parking is an issue, I'll do whatever I have to do in front of this board. I could swear that I will accommodate parking. If the three additional units are that much concerned with parking, I will give parking up the block to those three tenants. I'll do whatever I have to do. I could write an easement. I could put a a clause on the deed. I'll do whatever just to accommodate that because I again I did everything by the book. Sir,

I don't have more questions. I do. Yeah. So, um, so right now you got 300 in. You you bought it for about 110. How much more what are we talking to wrap up your project? So, right now we're talking I I would need about approximately 200 250,000 to finish the project. Yeah. And uh my other question is how did it come to be that you realized you needed a variance? How did

I received a phone call from the city of Troy? Again, you can look into this. My my permit is still active. It's fine. I just want to know what the communication chain was to when were you notified you needed a variance? I was notified. I wrote it on my notes. Give me a second, please. Sure. I don't know what the communication I'm just wondering how it came to be. I don't know. Yeah, someone noticed it. Maybe maybe staff noticed it. I'm going to grab my phone, please.

Okay, that's fine. Maybe Carlo Carlo could be that could be Carlo or Andrew realized that they had issued the permit without getting the I was sure that maybe it was it was sometime late October and since then and who who was it who was it from it was um collectively um they conference called me um Billy French Carlo the senior director from um the Troy and Andrew the engineer.

Carlo and Andrew are buildings and Billy French is one of our chief code enforcement. What does what does it say? Tell me anything that it was just verbal. They said, "Wally, we have um some complaints from the neighbors um saying that they're um this shouldn't be a seven family." And I was like, "But Billy, how?" You you approved it just like you approved my other units. I did the same steps, man. I took all the necessary steps as Danny Sanders pointed out. Um, yep. We're not Right. Right. So, this is

No, thank you. [clears throat] Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I'm more confused. [laughter] So, wait a minute. So, so I I I I want to argue your point a little bit. I'm a real estate agent locally here. You're a broker. Yes. If you I have my license. Would you like to see it? No. No.

You know, all in if you're at 500 on a three family unit, even though it's really a two family unit, you can still make money. There's right now, I checked before I came to uh to this meeting, did I say that? There's 662 available apartments in Troy right now. That's a lot of apartments. I have a I have a problem with adding more to be quite honest with you. No offense to you. I don't have a problem with you converting a a a building that's already there and making it what it was. But in Troy, as as a as a rule of thumb, we have too many apartments. And that honestly is my opposition to not your project because your project sounds fabulous. I think I I applaud you for all the work that you're putting into Troy and Skenctity and Albany and that you're buying up these derelict building. I I cannot applaud you enough. We need people like you.

Thank you. But I do have a problem with tiny little units. I have a problem with parking and I have a problem with just more than than what the building was actually created for. That's just me speaking my piece. That's nothing for you to argue. I'm just giving you my my angle.

I have a question. Um you have indicated uh your extensive experience. Uh you um uh uh work with or employ uh several um experts. Um, did you or as I've seen in the past in situations do a costbenefit analysis to show that you will or will would not make money on three, four, five or six units. Anything between, you know, up to seven. the anything above a six families works with the with the budget that I that I need to put into this project in order to finish it to make it a turnkey.

Right. But there's a breakdown of of specific costs uh for each number and I I've seen those analyses before. It's it's it's not a overly a big lift and for someone who's been in the business for as long as you have, that's pretty standard. So, I've just wondered whether you have done it uh or would be willing to do it for the board. Um, be willing to do exactly what, ma'am. I want to make sure I understand.

Benefit analysis showing your uh what you would get or lose money specifically by the number of unit options. Right. Right. Well, yeah, I'd be more than happy to to to provide that for for for the board. Um, each unit and as stated, you're you're a realtor. Each unit you're you're looking at about at a market value, each unit right now, if you were to purchase it, they would average it a value about 75 to $80,000. Would you agree that that that's that's right? I mean, I think a buck 25 per unit,

125,000, which which is cheap. I mean, honestly, you know, I mean, I mean, I understand your dilemma because you're trying to and I understand the loan, you know, with your bridge loan, you're trying, you know, if if I was just buying a three family and I was renting it out, I I I might not be getting all of that money back in my mortgage. And I understand that's your situation. you're trying to have it be a wash plus being in in the black, you know, versus having to catch up. So, I I understand your dilemma, but I but I do think I mean I mean I looked at your picture. You you you've done a beautiful job.

Thank you. you know, [clears throat] I I don't know what you were planning on charging for these 500 foot units, but I I think by expanding and making it a three family, which is what it originally was, even though that would still need a use variance because it's a two family now apparently. But anyways, um I I think that, you know, by increasing the rent, you're going to you're going to increase the quality of your tenant. You're I think you I I think you can I think you can make it work. No, no, it's it would because again you're not counting the purchase price as well. Purchase price 110 and then the the renovation cost you're looking at 610 even if we 610

right? So now again this is per se you know so let's just say we're being conservative with those numbers. So now also count I have a mortgage there's a bridge loan I have to pay. I haven't done any work since I received the phone call. Why? is out of respect. Carlo, um, Billy and Andrew called me. They said, "Wally, we're just giving you a verbal this meet. We met at the building. They seen all the work done." They said, "Okay, well, this is what this is a step that needs to be taken now." Unaware to me, I I automatically called my architect and uh and I said, "Look, this is what what was just they called me and told me. Um, I don't want to continue to do any work cuz I don't want to r for any feathers. I have a good reputation and I want to do what's right and I want to move forward. Um, so with the purchase price of 110, title insurance, insurance, closing cost, and just the carrying cost, that's something that you're forgetting. Carrying cost every month, I'm paying right now. If you do $300,000, everyone on the board, you know, I'm very private with those numbers, but that's $3,200 a month I'm paying right now for a vacant building. You know, that building was supposed to be turnkey already done

because of this this hardship that I've been given and I've been doing respectfully. Not we haven't been in there. We've been in there once to clean everything out to make sure to winterize the building, you know, from from squatters, from anyone breaking in, you know, to protect the work that we already done. So, if you add 35 30 something hundred dollars a month in a year, that's some roughly, you know, $40,000. So you could add that as well. So you're talking way over 700, you know, $750,000. And even to your at $100,000, then it's what? Break even. We're in we're we're in business to make money

as we all are. You know, everyone here on this board, you know, they're here on my behalf. They're not making anything because this is support because I do the right thing by people. And everyone here, thank you. They all do the right thing by me. And I want to say that, you know, it's the truth. You know, I mean, this shows it. You know, I have I've never raised the rent on anyone on any of these people here and they could vouch for me. And sometimes my property tax go up and you know that you point that you're a realtor. My property tax has gone up for every property and not hundreds, thousands. And I still don't raise the rent. Why? because they're good, hardworking people and that's what it's about. If it's not about that and then what are we as a society? I done the right thing. I've done nothing wrong here. I was given a permit and I did that and I moved forward with the permit what was given to me. If they would have told me we can only get a three family, I would have done a three family. That's fine, you know, but it it didn't make sense as a three family. If they would have told me, Wally, you could do a four, I would maybe I would have bought the four, but no, it still didn't make sense. The purchase is $110. I would have walked away from the deal. I walk away from many deals. Well, we've had other situations where uh renovations occur and they try to uh make multiple units and we have asked for the uh and received the uh costbenefit analysis for the different options and at times since you know construction like in your case is early enough uh applicants have been open to the prospect of something other than the max.

And I think it would help everyone here if we saw because you're you're you're giving very big lump sums and they're very, you know, it's it's it's very informative, but when you break it down per unit, it's much more helpful. Understand? and also for all involved whether even a modest alternative might be considered and what do you um well we we'd look at the numbers you know it's six instead of seven okay

that's all I'm getting at but again we haven't seen the costbenefit analysis for per units and that again breaks it down for us to see it conceptually I understand okay thank you I'm I'm gonna ask a maybe a dumb question. Um, your microphone is Yeah, it is. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. So, and I'm usually the one that asks the simple questions here is when when you purchased this building in when was it? 20 24.

You knew it was a zone two family at that time. I mean, the variance, not there was a variance, but there was you knew you looked at it and said it was two family, right? You No. No. No. It was technically a four family when I What do you mean by technically it was a four? You have four units with the Yeah, with the basement. Four. It may have been an illegal unit in there. All right. So you had an illegal unit in there that before the fire, but so you didn't you didn't realize when you purchased in 2024 that you were purchasing in a two family zone and no one your architect your attorney like never said attorney civil engineer.

Oh okay. So your attorney, the civil engineer, the architect didn't say hold up here something something this is a red flag just I mean if I was had an architect who was looking at drawings for going from like that would have been the first thing I would have looked at you no one gave you that like warning on your side. No I mean that is something the attorney your real estate attorney would double check. Yeah typically and your and your your attorney your real estate attorney never no lack this. Okay, let's just No, neither neither did the building departments when I submitted the permit. I'll agree with did that you made that very clear. Just

But your attorney and your engineer and others work for you and are obligated to protect you. Exactly. And inform you of everything you need to know to make a business decision.

Right. And did anyone from the bank or not the bank the private lender did they did they notify you of this saying like hey like to me if I [clears throat] was loaning you 300,000 or 600,000 whatever the number is was loaning you a dollar build this I'd say to you like hey this is you're trying to build seven here that what's makes this project viable you don't have all the ducks in a row just yet maybe I shouldn't give you that dollar that they never said anything to you either

well as as I pointed out um before purchasing the building, I personally came down to the building department. Will knows I'm here at least twice a month. I have other properties. Um I asked what can I do with this building cuz it doesn't work as a three family or four. And they said okay based on this you could do this. I went with my architect which is also here. He spoke he said yes we're submitted as a seven family. We submitted it and it was approved.

So based on what when you said based you you that's fine. I I'm just trying to get into the weeds a little bit here. So you came down building for code or whoever I can't make it. You haven't bought it yet, right? Correct. I I can't make this work. What can I do? And then you you said based on something they said why don't you do this? not something based on where the building sits um what can I do with it because there's other there's been other projects where they um I converted as well which are completed um so can

on all those other projects and I know that's not relevant here but you've never needed a no sir you've never needed a zoning no sir board of appeals approval variance or anything on any other property in Troy Albany or connected Um, and no, no, no, sir. All my projects I guess I bought, right? [laughter] No. To to that, Zack, that I am I am surprised your attorney your real estate attorney didn't catch. I mean, I just I just sold vacant land and we went through two months of zoning to make sure that she could do something. But I I guess we could argue the same thing about the city, ma'am. Well, I Yeah, you're right.

You know, I just did No, no. I just did everything they was asking me. Yeah, I I really they asked me for insurance, I provided insurance. They asked me for workers comp. I provided that. They asked me for my my permits. Um they asked me for the licenses for every individual here in this room. I submitted that. I did again we we did everything and I paid the permits which was a hefty fee. Happily paid it and my taxes are current. You could look that up as well for all my properties. I believe you. I have a question. Sure. I'm not in any way questioning what you're saying or your integrity. I want to make that Thank you, sir.

I had a long career. I'm not a lawyer,

but I was an investment rep, an investment broker, a financial planner, etc. One of the things that we always impressed upon clients was it's ultimately the client responsibility to perform what we call due diligence. When you buy a stock, when you buy a bond, when you buy a mutual fund, when you buy a piece of land, when you buy a building, understand and have your attorney, look at it, counsel you, make sure you understand exactly what you're getting into. That's where I was going with title insurance. It was never purchased.

No, it was. I I answer you and I told you it was, sir. Oh, it was. Yes. I I We did a loan with any any loan. You mentioned you're in the finance industry. With any loan, um you have to do title insurance. Okay. 100%. The bank wouldn't the bank wouldn't the bank wouldn't give you a loan. But whoever the lender was never brought up the question of zoning or two unit or three unit

as I as I um stated before sir the deal wouldn't work as a three family. When I came here to sub to in question they told me that it I could be converted and that's why we submitted all the documents and I submitted these documents also to my lender. That's why the deal worked. Okay, but let's go back to what Miss Dundy's pointed it out before. It was the last question I asked you in a whole series of questions. Is it possible? Have you thought about whether or not a three or four unit would work for you financially, cash flow, return on capital, return on investment, return on equity, as opposed to

I got to have seven units or five or six. Can't do it. But so you're asking me right now to go inside the building and basically cut every rip everything that I've done already. That's technically what you're ask I would have to send my crew in to remove all the framing done all the structure done. It doesn't work. Okay. I didn't think of that. I'm just asking. No, no, it's fine. That's what we're all here for. Oh,

still um it would be useful to know if that rip out as you say would be necessary for as I said for the breakdown costbenefit analysis rip out is required for a three, a four, a five, but not a six or a seven. I mean where does that extra cost in a costbenefit analysis fit? If we had to change this would be the cost. That would be incredibly helpful to us.

We can see the numbers actually look at them and you say like listen this is what three would be this is what one would be. This is what 10 would be extra cost if we change not 10. Okay. Danny will you call guys? Will you wait a minute? Well you wait till we're done with Hope you guys

you'll have you'll have you'll have an opportunity to speak as was mentioned in terms of the cost analysis and we've done variances Dan has done variances and for projects and one thing that comes up as you say is costbenefit analysis. Well, now if you're going to reduce the framing from seven units back to six for some reason, I'm not sure because six is still beyond four. So, I don't know what the end goal is for the for our client, but to do that, that's wasting money. I mean, that just doesn't make any no offense, but it just doesn't make any sense in the equation to do that because you're tearing out work that's been approved and the work is already in place. So, between the plumbing, the electrical, and the framing that's been installed in a $300,000 budget, which is whatever $50,000 already per unit has been put into the building, now you're taking out a unit. And one of the other things is just as an equation for the whole project is that to bring seven units back to six units, you may still have the same amount of bedrooms. So depending on how the layout would be, you could still have the same amount of bedrooms. So I'm not sure what is being saved in the review process by cutting it back from seven to six.

Well, and it cost ahead. Or five. Well, five then you're ripping out more units. Yeah. But matter of ripping out a unit or just taking out an It's ext. It's extensive. It's extensive because when we were doing the design, every every partition is critical to make a bedroom sized or kitchen sized or bathroom size properly. So when you start moving partitions around and taking out walls, there's other ramifications that you're going to be affecting. And it's not a cookie cutter project. It's not like there's duplication amongst the floors even because of the way the building is configured.

And I I I actually I I respect what you're saying in terms of the costs involved in in some of these changes. But again, a costbenefit analysis would help us conceptualize are we talking $1,000? Are we talking $50,000 per unit? And what is involved in that change? I I can't I can't exactly speak to the dollars, but I'm just saying in terms of at this point where we are today, it's it's diff it's more difficult to do a costbenefit analysis because of the money that's No, it's not that much more diff

Well, I respectfully disagree because it's pretty involved because you're wasting money. You're wasting lumber. you're putting, you know, framing work that's already been done and wiring that's already been done to you're putting it aside. You're just like throwing it away and then you're doing it just to come up with an analysis that's about wasting money unfortunately at this point. But it can be done in an estimated way. It doesn't have to be to the sense. I don't think it's the first time that I mean we've had presentations before. Those kind of analyses are done all the time. No, that's what I'm saying. We've done them. I've been involved in those for variance hearings,

but not while the building is under construction. It's a very different formula that you'd be using because you're not analyzing how many apartments there are. You're analyzing what you have to do to bring it back to another number once you're already framed. But it is cost. It's possible. I'm not going to say it's just not sure what the goal is for it.

So the in order to qualify for the use variance, one of the elements is your client must show this board that he cannot re he cannot recover a reasonable rate of return unless the variance is granted. So it's it behooves him to come forward with a costbenefit analysis that shows what kind of rates of return he can he can recover at say five, six or seven units or something like that.

So um as I mentioned this this property was purchased in 2024. The bridge loan is for 12 month period. So, I already extended um the loan. Uh based on my relationship with the bank, they have extended this loan. Uh the terms go the rates go from 10% to 15%. To what? To 15%. Oh, I thought you said 50.

No, no, 15%. Um so, a bridge loan would someone with good credit and a clean background, meaning no criminal record, um you get a 10% given today's market. um you get 12 months to complete the project. Given this project, I was um you know very confident that I would be able to do so. Um but now given all these hardship and here we are I had to extend the loan um with penalties with extension fees. When you ask the bank to extend the loan they charge you an additional 2%. So 2% on the original loan. So you the purchase price is 110,000. Actually it was like 120 something I believe. Um so now you qualify for 10%. Save I I get 10% down on that. So this just says 15,000. So I'm financing now $90,000 from the bank. The bank lends me a draw of $500,000 with a conservative um cushion of $50,000. Now, that's there for reserves in the event that you pass your $500,000 mark. Um, we don't know if we're going to pass because we haven't gotten that far, unfortunately. Um, now, but the extensions have been granted. My rate today is at 15%. And that's why I pointed out where I'm paying $3,500 a month for a vacant building. Uh, and that's that's my fee now based on the draws that I pull. So when you pull when you do work the gutting that say I I propose to the bank that my gut is going to take me $20,000. The bank sends a member they take photographs and they submit it and they indicate yes if the gutting is done 100% they will with release whatever I stated for that draw would be. So, if the gutting if I told them the gutting was

20,000 and they verify that the gutting is done 100% then they wire me $20,000 for me to move forward to the next step. Um, this is where we're at today where so they already approved the the $300,000 mark based on where we're at and now the additional is to carry out the project. But now here we are where no work is happening and I'm still having to pay the mortgage. uh I have, you know, my other properties that are able to know carry this, but it's I it's it's tough. It's not easy. You know, it there's credit involved here. There's my background involved in this. You know, I I can't afford to get miss a payment. Then I can't do this no more. Then what do I tell my family? Oh, yeah. It's a great career. Get into real estate, become a developer. But then now if I miss one payment, then there goes my credit. There goes my background. Then what do I got to do? I'm a grown man. You know, now what? I got to go work somewhere else and get another career at my age because now I missed the payment on my mortgage. So now I got to start all over when this is what I dreamed of. I've done everything right.

So Mr. Avora, a three from my from my sense. Okay. I don't I'm not a voting member of the board. on their legal advisor. Okay. But I do get the sense they are trying to work with you to the extent that they can.

I appreciate that. And you you do need a zoning var variance in order to go forward with this project. It sounds to me, and let the board speak finally about this, that you might be able to give them some level of comfort by showing them a legitimate costbenefit analysis that would justify uh your request for a variance or at least show them, you know, what you would be making at different levels, four, five, six, what, whatever number of units. I don't really know. I'm not familiar with the project that familiar with the project but I don't think the board is comfortable at least I'm not hearing that with just going forward on sort of a wing and a prayer and I realize this is a hardship for you is costing you money and that's all this is due to se a confluence of several unfortunate circumstances which seem to have come together in this case I'm sorry about that but the only way forward that I see and once Once again, I'm not speaking for the board, but what I'm hearing from the board is they need a costbenefit analysis. I don't know. They can they can speak for themselves.

The lump sum already. Uh your architect has some idea of work that would be required. How long do you think it might take to uh provide that to us? The costbenefit analysis? Well, that's something that I I would have to um sit down with with um my team and put together and um you know, see when we could get that to you, you know, but uh professionals do that. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's something that I I can't get to you know, tomorrow. I would love to say that, but um things don't work that way.

Well, we would need it by the next board meeting, and I think that would be sufficient time. When is the next board meeting? Next board meeting. The first Wednesday of every month. First Wednesday of every month. So also are you privy aware with you've got two variances. You got area and youth. We're focusing on the youth at the moment. Um February 4th that um there's four conditions that have to be met. Not just we understand your hardship but I don't think there's any denying the hardship. Um are you aware of the other three? Uh what are the other three? Three of those.

Yes, I would. Okay. So actually what I'll do is I'll indicate the um the the components or test for the use variance and for your own information um the area variance. Okay. So for a motion for a use variance um the the fir let me see first uh for a use variance the applicant must satisfy all four tests for approval. Failure to meet even one is grounds for denial. Uh therefore a motion to approve requires that all conditions be provide be proven and read into the record as factual findings. So the first um test is uh is the property uh is able or unable to provide a reasonable return unless the uh variance is approved. Uh two, the hardship relating to the property is not or is unique when compared to similar properties and does or does not apply to a substantial portion of the neighborhood. Three, the requested variance, if granted, will or will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood. And four, the alleged hardship is or is not self-created. Again, we must satisfy all four tests.

The last one has I think the last one is self-explanatory. It's not self-created. Well, we have the other three that we have to So, do you need any one anything for that last one or it's it's it's understood by all the members that the last one is clearly not self-created.

Well, we're not going to address that until we have everything. We have to have it all at once. Okay. And now for the area variance. For an area variance, the applicant does not have to uh satisfy all five tests and you can site only one or two in support of an approval or denial. So for uh that the first uh uh test or one of the tests is the variance will or will not create an undesirable change in the character of the neighborhood or be a detriment to nearby properties if it is granted. The second test, the benefit sought by the applicant may or may not be achieved by some feasible method other than the proposed variance. Three, the requested variance is or is not substantial. Four, the variance if granted will or will not have an adverse effect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district. and five the alleged difficulty is or is not self-created. But for the area variance, the applicant again does not have to satisfy all five tests and you could we can site one or two in support of approval or denial. Whereas for the use variance uh the applicant again must supply all four tests for an approval and failure to meet even one is grounds for denial. Those are our obligations.

I just wanted to make sure you knew that. Yeah. Okay. And I I have one more another question. I'm sorry. You mentioned you own the property next door adjacent to it, right? How many apartments do you have in there? How many units do you have in that building?

Three. It's three total or four total. Four total. That's four total. Four total. Okay. So, could I ask you a question? Yeah. Can you ask me a question? Yeah. So, how if that has four units, wouldn't and it's in the same two family zone purchased. So, why do you not need to get a variance for that? It may be grandfathered. Oh, maybe grand. Okay. Okay. I don't know. This one, this one was purchased, I believe, after it had been uninhabited for a year or better or something like that due to the fire, right? So, so there could be a a grandfather

could be a grandfather or family right next door. There could be other grandfathers throughout the neighborhood. I don't really know. Go ahead. I I Does the board mind if I ask one question? No, go right ahead. Go ahead. Okay. Um, you mentioned that you had worked on the or have been working on the sprinkler system. Is that fully installed? He's here. What would you say, sir? 90% 90% sir. 90%. So, okay. You you installed a 2-in line to service it. Everyone's here. And are the And are the

Sorry. So you you said 90% that means like most but not all the heads are installed yet or uh you want come on up so we can get it on the record please. All of the heads are in. We're just not tied into the main yet. Okay. That's all I wanted to know. Is that is that all all floors? Yes. Just your name too. My name is Seth from Matthew Sprinkler. I've done multiple buildings on this block too that are the uh 3075 has 12 units in there. I believe uh 3278 has six units in it now. He converted from a 3-unit to a sixunit. There's multiple buildings in the area that have done the same things. Okay. Thank you.

I have a comment and a question may work for you. Not trying to give you any advice. Just want to make that very clear. You have two variances that you need to meet. The area variance and the use variance, right? I'll pause. No,

I know what you're saying. That's okay. What if a little creative planning took one of the variances totally off the table. Let's go back and think about what she's harped on all night long with the fiscal analysis. and your engineer or architect said going from seven units to six units or six units to five units, what's that going to do other than waste money? If code says a unit has to have, pardon me while I look at this,

700 square ft. Okay, plug that 700 square foot code requirement into a unit. The real question is, how many square feet do you have to work within that building? If I could be creative, I might be able to reduce my construction cost, not draw down on all of the capital that's sitting on the table to advance a seven unit job. Part of that savings could reduce your debt load or continue you to amvertise the loan for additional months. Think about five units as opposed to seven moving a wall one way or the other. That's not my job. That's his job. and get back to 700 square ft per unit and one of your variance issues goes off the board. It doesn't exist. Now you're back to the use variance only, not the area variance. You're spending down less capital in terms of your amortization cost and you could p perhaps not have that that credit issue. Now, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just thinking out loud,

Stephen. Just to clarify, create a win-win situation. It's an average of of of 700. An average of 700. So, they don't all have to meet that threshold. Okay. So, so my point is this. Let's do this in a very elementary process. And I'm surprised nobody sat down with you and did this. How many square feet do you have to work with within that building? I don't know what the answer is, but it's X square feet, right?

Okay. If I'm looking for approximately 700 square ft or more per unit, how many units would that give me without asking for an offset or a reduction in square feet for the area variance? Would that absolutely reduce my overall cash flow and construction cost and allow you to recoup and keep your credit in good faith and maybe have a fiscal analysis done and get yourself a win-win? I'm just thinking out loud, buddy.

Well, thank you for that. Um, but I could assure you it does it cuz we're we're one thing you're not considering is carrying cost to carry this loan is costing me every month as I pointed out $3,500. Okay? And the money that was already drawn, the money that's left, it may not be sufficed because now of all this cost. So if I'm paying $3,500 a month, I had to add that into the cost of the project. And not to mention when the project is complete or turn key, the the the lender collects his fees, the two points for every extension. They grant you the first loan at 12 months. The extension, the second one is four months.

Yes. This the third one is four months. Now, let's not talk about the fifth one or the sixth one. It seems like that's where we're going this approach. Where I'm going, I understand. But do you understand my hardship? Do you understand my position now? All I am is trying to do the right thing. I'm doing everything that was given to me and approve. You know, do would you rather see a building empty, abandoned? This is what I do. I I I take buildings that are in poor conditions and I make them nice and that's all I'm doing.

I understand. and um and it's already approved for a seven by the city. So I don't understand this. I wasn't told that I had to do this. I wasn't told that if they would have told me then I would have done all the necessary steps. Nobody should with your sir the the attorneys here that is representing this. If you could look the permit is still active, sir. There's no stop work order. Will you you represent here? Is there a stop work order on this project? Best of my knowledge, there's no um stop work order. So, right now, Seth,

for sever, you could go in there, continue to work. Carl, you could go in there, continue to work. Mark, you could go in there, continue to work. Danny, you could go in there, continue to work. Nick, you could go in there, continue to work. We all could continue to work. Sir, there's no stop work order. I didn't say there was. No, I understand that. But now they called me and verbally told me. So what I did respectfully because of the good reputation I have and always doing the right thing and being noble, I stopped. I didn't know about this.

No. And sir, neither did I up until the phone call. I done I submitted everything asked of me. I mean, look at all these professionals I have here. These are licensed people. Not that's that's that was my point is not one of these licensed professionals said whoa right here. But no [clears throat] no but neither did the building department. So when I when I hire somebody right like when I hired my real estate agent I told her in the beginning of the process I said make sure I'm not making an emotional decision. Protect me from doing something I shouldn't do. And because she that was her profession

to say I'm going to stop you from doing something wrong. That's kind of what when I hire a professional, I kind of expect that from them to say to give me the stop. Just I'm not saying that the city didn't tell you that this can be converted. You can convert anything to anything, right? But I'm just saying to me that's that that's So what? What's your name? I can't I can't see the tag from here. What? My name? Yeah. Zack. Zach. Zack. Okay. Zack. But isn't that the city's position as well? Just or no question. Yeah, I Yeah, I agree. Just a no. Just just a no question. two wrongs never made it right. I'm just asking a question. It's just a yes or no question. You you you you don't want to answer that.

No, no, I I did. I said yes, I agree with you, but I'm saying two wrongs don't make And again, I'm not in any way, shape, or form trying to be disrespectful. Just everyone has to understand my position. You're not being dis We've been standing here for two and a half hours. I have everyone here. No one's left. Everyone's still here. I think each and every one of the Thank you. That that that's a lot of merit. That shows a lot of character. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. No, no, I understand your hardship and there there's a ton of money in respectful of your situation and we just want to indicate our situation of our obligations to as I read to you that

what it seems like to me, ma'am, is the city approved something that they shouldn't shouldn't approved and now they they're they're responsible for it. They the city approved a seven family. I have the permit for it and I went ahead and did everything right and now they made a phone call and now here I am in limbo with with expenses with bills and now that I have to be responsible for you know by providing us with additional information. Yeah, and I'd be more than happy to do so. It will help us hopefully have this uh uh result. Okay. Understood.

Yeah, understood. Mr. Can. So, so someone else open up to the public, please. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm the framer. I'm the framer. I frame the place. Okay. Long time frame. I'm afraid. What was your name? Mark Anthony. Okay. Would you mind picking up the mic and speaking more directly?

Mark Anthony. I frame a lot in Troy. Five contracting. We do a lot of business out here. the cost analysis of framing right off the rip. If I was to charge 5,000 a floor, four floors is $20,000. You change the blueprint hypothetical. If you change the blueprint, it becomes a whole separate cost. I'm charging from the beginning again because I'm not going to go dail all the wood. I'm not going to use old lumber. It has to be completely demoed and I have to start all over again. That's doubling his framing cost from the very beginning. the sprinkler guy has to come and take apart all of his stuff in order for me to do that. The cost analysis automatically doubles to the point that he's at right now,

right? But we need to see it by numbers of units. So all the all the specialists get together, but everybody's been here long enough to know that when the building has to be demoed, it costs money, right? Simple scenario, right? So nobody does it for free. So now we got to d we got to double it. We got to demo it again. Double the cost. We got to build it again. Double the cost. Sprinkler guy has to come. Double the cost. Now the electrician has to come use all new wire. He's not going to put junction boxes everywhere. Double the cost. If this was from the beginning and it wasn't approved, it wouldn't have went this far. True.

Because I would have took the blueprints and I've been like, "All right, 70 unit." If it was four unit, I would have been like four unit it was approved. Well, in your analysis, you could put, you know, zero construction. This would be the breakdown at this point in time. Construction is at what half whatever percentage and then indicate. So, we would have that perspective. It's double the cost and time as of right now. whatever he spent right now, if he says his loans is at 300,000, let's hypothetically say 60% of that is

is lost is going to be recouped. There's no way. And you as a realtor, you know that. No, you as a realtor know that. I don't think there's any argument of anybody in this room that there's a financial hardship. I I think I I I think we all agree there's a financial hardship, which I mean of some sort or another. Financial. Well, it's not. You got to meet all four. That's the problem. One of the four I have a question. I've been here listening. Isn't it you guys' due diligence to sit there and say you don't have all the everything in order to grant this to you? But nobody said that to him. You guys granted to him saying, "Okay, move forward with this." No, this board.

You're right. Maybe not you. Somebody did. If it's the city, whoever it is, the building department sat there and said, "Oh, yeah, you could do this." That's what he did. He could have submitted a 50 unit and if the building said yeah you could do it he could have did it. The question is here is he didn't ask for forgiveness. He asked permission and he was granted permission to do this but not forgiveness

at this stage in time with added information specific information it will help us help this situation go forward. So the city itself should did not do their due diligence before granting this. Could we all agree upon that? Somebody who matter of fact who signed the permit that said yes do this. Let's let's look at that and then we can get him here because that means he didn't do his job. So that is not the issue before this board.

That's not the issue. The issue before this board is whether your client is going to get a variance or not. Okay? That is the only issue before the board. That's what has to be decided. They've asked for more information. I think you're I think uh Mr. Zal forgive me um has agreed to provide that information to the best of his ability. The other the other stuff is not the other not being finished what I'm saying sir. The other stuff is neither here nor there here.

That's not not at this point conversation. All we're asking is he didn't ask for forgiveness. He has permission and it was granted. I understand the cast the cost analysis, but now it's to the point now like what does he do until then? So hang on. He's not he doesn't have a stop order, right? But because all good terms, he heard about this and he stopped it. He said, "Hey, let's let's do this the right way. Let's everybody breathe. All of us breathe, including us. Let's let's stop to try to get this resolved and now move forward so I'm not financially more in debt and the city of Troy is not upset." So that's what he did. So now the cost analysis like you said if this takes another two months he's $7,000 in loans right from the very beginning. So no one said anything about another two months.

No no I said because now he's got to he's got to pay somebody to do his cost analysis. Hang on that going to cost him money which he said he'll do whatever it takes to get done. But my asking is how do we move forward from here because if he keeps working he's not in the wrong but it'd be disrespectful. Am I right? Am I right? It would be but he stopped. I'm just asking a question. He wouldn't be wrong, but he would be disre he but he's not but he would he stopped. I'm just saying he stopped right now. We're the ones who asked the questions, sir. With all due respect, okay, he stopped out of respect. He doesn't know how to go further from here because it's costing him money. Well, I think we're giving him a way to help resolve the situation.

A reasonable way. Please, I'm just, you know, it's it's fine. I I want to say yes, it was out of respect, but also he stopped because if the variance isn't issued and he continued working, he's that much further building. So he if he finished the building tomorrow and he paid you whatever you're getting for framing, right? And then he said, "Listen, I don't care. Work order is good. Keep going." And then they came here today and we said no. So then then you have to start over again or or right. So when you're yelling at us saying that

that well he's doing it out of respect. I I agree that there's both sides 50% of that is respect and 50% of that is crazy to keep working knowing that he needed the variance. So I I agree with you that it but crazy to keep working. You're right. And it was a respect thing. No, I'm agreeing with We're both on the same exact page here. We're not arguing that. So that's why the order has stopped.

But in the very beginning when he got when he got permission to build this, he assumed that the city did their part. Everybody did their part. And if there was something missing, all they had to sit there and say is, "Wally, you're missing this." And he would have been like, "Okay, let me go back and get this." But given the permit to start building, that wasn't an issue until it become an issue somewhere else. That's what I'm saying. So again, he didn't ask for forgiveness. He asked permission and it was granted to him and this is why we are where we here are today. That's it. So again, anybody got a little heated for it, but he's emotionally distressed because financially it's stressing him out. But right now, I don't how does he how does he benefit from here? Like how does he do what you guys are asking him from? Still carry keep carrying the loans which now the year is coming up. He's going to have to get that extra 50% with the extra interest rates. And now we have to conclude of whatever the board says. You gave an example. He said, "Oh, we're trying, the city is trying to come to a point that everybody's not even understanding. We could kind of come to an agreement." So, what is that agreement? Is it six units? Is it five units? Like, what would be best?

There's no way for us to know without looking at the the numbers. I know you're you're saying that it's seven. It's It has to be seven, but but that was what was No, no, hang on. Let's just hypothetically said you said that.

Yeah. We're just going in circles here. If you want to go forward, I think that you need to provide the board with a costbenefit analysis. We can schedule that for next month. Probably if you get that to us within a reasonable amount of time before the hearing, then I think the board could probably commit commit to coming to a decision that time. We've had a number of new information tonight since you were here. you brought a lot of things forward to the for the board to consider and uh I think the best thing to do from your perspective and from the board's perspective would be to table it for tonight come back sometime between before the next meeting with a costbenefit analysis in detail that shows the board you know what the what the likely return is and uh you know that that might be the best way to go forward. I don't know if the board is in agreement with that or not.

Should we be able to still hear the uh uh public comments? Yes, you can still hear them today. I just asked a question before. So, so, so for how many units should I do this for? Because if seven was allowed, should I do it for a seven? Should I do it for a six? Because now if I do it for six, we have to rip everything out. Now, my architect is going to charge me again. the the city might say, "Well, now you know the the sprinkler um company is going to charge me." So now it becomes unforeseen money. You're seeking a variance for seven units.

Right. Right. Correct. I think your cost benefit analysis at a minimum would address why seven units is required in order for you to make a reasonable return. You have additional costs because some of the construction has already proceeded. If you were to reduce that number of units, you can show that in an analysis also. I I would uh but it's your facts and figures that will educate the board as to what the situation on the ground is.

Your your own architect indicated he's done this before. And I my uh indication is that the more information we get the better. So, I would go from, you know, seven and and lower. As far as you can go where and and just come up with the numbers. I mean, it's the it's the same analysis whether you're going 76 54 or three. It's the same analysis, but the cost will change. Well, the cost is going to change dramatically because I have to pretty much rip everything out. Well, then you indicate that in your show that it's going to show.

Yeah. Well, well, again, that that gives more hardship because now it's more time, it's more labor, but it's fine. If that's what the board is asking of me, then that's what I'll do. So, I mean, you should indicate [laughter] if that's what you want. That's what the board is asking of me. Correct. Is this

I can only tell you what I think. I would have a spreadsheet and I would have a column seven units, column six units, a column five units, and I'd have my cost itemized per unit. And it would show me what it would cost to do the seven versus the six versus the five. And we we've been provided those from other presentations before and and now we have to assume the cost that already has been included by the spending the carrying cost. So I'm going to be have to put all that and

that's okay. And you've got [clears throat] to have a return on equity. What I don't I don't think there's going to be a return on equity, but I'm trying to I actually know that. Show that. Right. So now, so I mean, I don't even know if I could afford it. This is This is Wow. You should be able to do this yourself for the most part, don't you think, ma'am? I I operate 165 units to that. Let me ask you a question. So, you said that you have a bunch of other multi-units close to this house. I have three three others um on the same street. What What are those addresses? Um, if I may ask,

is it relevant to Yeah, because because I need to know because one of the things of these four is does it is it a detriment to the neighborhood? So, I'd like why but if we're here for one property, why it's part of what if if your if your houses are all in a two family location and there's a seven unit then I have a problem. But there isn't. I know. I'm just asking. The one that was approved by the city were actually in the department on the same floor. No, no. I'm answering your question, man. So, the same floor that we're on where I was permitted to put this into a seven family was the one that gave me permission to convert it to a seven family. The same floor that we're on. Question that. I just wanted to know what the address is.

But I don't understand. We're here for one address, not another address. So, I don't understand your point, ma'am. Would you rather she ask the assessor? No. No. I'd be more interested. I just but I just don't understand that because one of your requirements that you have to meet is that your variance is doesn't change the essential character of the 3028 6th Avenue. Yep. Um 300066th Avenue. That's the one in next door. Correct. And 30726th Avenue. 3072. 30726 Avenue.

Okay. Thanks. So, wait a minute. Is aren't we talking 306? No, we're talking 304. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. And those are all over three or something. They would they would be comparable to what you're doing? They those are threes. Those are threes. [clears throat] The the 3072 is a one. One one family. It's a one family. And the others are three three families.

Yes. And there's several other units on the on the block. There very very um assorted range of um multifamilies on that block. I'm just I mean that would be something you could also present to to your benefit. Okay. We are trying to actually help you according to what we supposed to be doing. According to our tests, we have to support our motions. No, ma'am. I I look ma'am. This board that's talking about this board,

right? No, no, no, I understand. But to on the permit, it says approve. I know. I know. That's not us. That's not us. No, that's but but I but then so then so then there should be two departments when you go to to to to reconstruct the building. Just not one. You can't say you know your mom gives you permission to go play. Dad comes home and dad can't veto what what mom said. You can't do that. If if if if mother gave permission to the son to play, he has permission to play. The father cannot punish the kid. But now I'm being punished.

I'm glad you guys are finding humor in this. It's not right. This is not my hardship. This are not my dollar. We understand, sir. We understand. Fully understand. We are understanding. We're very understanding. We're trying to with information, sir. We're trying to have this resolved. Okay. So it how now based on what you're asking me am I going to get it email or or or stating what you are exactly are asking me now because now you're asking me a lot. I did everything that was already asking me and it put me in this place. Is is that safe to say?

Your your your own architect indicated he is fully aware of what a costbenefit analysis is. So, I mean, that's what we're [clears throat] asking. So, so is the building department capable of approving permits and they put me in this situation? So, you are the board. What is it that you're asking of me? Can I have it in written detail in black and white transparency so I know exactly what to provide? I think I'm asking a fair question. It's all on video. I think the video is online. Yeah. I'll be posting and we we've been going on for for over two and a half hours.

Yeah. Well, all this will be the video of all this and their questions which you can review at your leisure and and and your team's leisure. It's all going to be posted either tomorrow or day after online. You want to ask? Yeah. There's someone from the public that would like to come up and speak. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Hello everyone. Um, my name is Lamont Walters. Can you hear me? No, I can.

Okay. Yeah. So, um, I am a licensed commercial and residential roofer. I am with local union 241. I am also licensed certified for asbestous removal and as well as lead removal. I've been knowing Wall-E for like five and a half years. and I do a little work with him sometimes and help him out from time to time. And I just want to say I'm also a tenant of his and he's an excellent landlord and he's always on top of everything and he makes sure that he takes care of whatever is requested or if there's ever any problem with no issues and he does it promptly. I also want to say this man is providing homes for people who can't afford housing with the way the the prices the cost of living is today. And he's also helping fix up the communities from seeing a lot of abandoned buildings not looking good in the communities and actually has an effect on, you know, the prices of the homes in the communities as well. So, he's doing a great job in actually adding some type of positive element to the communities and it breaks my heart and it will actually break my heart if he's unable to continue to do so because it's a positive thing and we need more people like him in the community to help people out so that our community will be better all together. You know, it's it's about, you know, building the community up for us all because it also allows all, you know, everyone that owns homes when the communities come together and all the houses are built up properly and and and you know, and and and fixed up in the community, we all know that the

costs go up as well. And you know, and you know, it's it's it's a positive thing. So, you know, if I'm asking if you can give the man an opportunity and, you know, be leaning on him and work with him, you know, that's all I'm saying. I'm giving him a lot of credibility and acknowledgement from what I've known since day one and he's doing a positive thing, you know. That's that's all I have to say. He's a good man. Thank you. Thank you very much. Very nice. Anyone else?

Anyone else, ladies? You may want to grab that microphone and put it in your hand like you're on stage. Okay. The same people from the last meeting. Tina Ursen from the Neighborhood Association. Joyce Daniels from 30 30006th Avenue. Stephanie Floyd, 30006th Avenue Troy.

My concern is if your city let them put all these apartments in a building, where is the parking facilities and Mr. Waldo, if you paid $110,000, they owed you money cuz there was two people ahead of you that wanted that bought. Would you kind of address the board? Can't hear you, ma'am. There was two people ahead of Mr. Waldorf who bought the building. speak into the mic. Here you go. That's like you're on stage.

There was two people before Mr. Waldor that bought the building for like $46,000 and then he comes back and say he paid $110,000 for it. It's not the idea that we're concerned about the building as much as the apartments he's trying to put in there. There's too many apartments in there. and I've been there 44 years in my house and there those two houses 304 and 306 are three family houses and there's a basement in both of them and nobody has ever lived in those basements and that house has been on fire three times since I lived there. I used to live at 300066th Avenue also and it was a three family house. It was a basement. Nobody lived there. Now, my concern as being a neighbor to 30,46 stab that which has been on fire three times or if not more, where is the parking going to be? I asked Wally, I said, "Hey, this is our house right here on 306 AB. We have an alleyway and then there's 3004." I said, "If our maintenance man needs to get between the alleyway when he put that lock there, can we have the combination? We don't use that alleyway, but if our maintenance man needed to come and fix something on the side of our house where it is, can I get the combination?" I never got the combination. Okay, no big deal. We never had to use it since that lock was put there. But now the lock is broken, so it's being hung on by a nail. And then Wall-E says he had people sign a petition. Who are these people that signed the petition? Do they live at 3066 Avenue? Where do they live? They're not our neighbors. We don't know. Who are

these people that signed the petition saying, "Okay, we want you to put seven units there." I'm against seven units. If he put four units there, okay, no problem. Parking is a problem. He said he did an analyst. Okay. Come in the morning where everybody is going to work. Of course, you're going to get as much parking as you want. But in the evening, there is no parking nine times out of 10. Um, and there has been squatters in that building. Um, parking is a problem. And like um, Miss Tamara said, there are too many apartment buildings in the city of Troy. That's all Troy is, is a bunch of apartment buildings. And it seems like every house that he's buying now that he's saying he wants to convert it to um 6 7 8 9 10 units. This is not the projects. This is a residential neighborhood. I'm against 3004 having seven units because we've been there over 44 years and we've had some good neighbors and we've had some bad neighbors. And like I said, there's three, it's a three family house and it has a basement. 3006 three family house. I used to live there on the first floor and a basement. And I just feel that we don't want a seven unit next to our house. That's what I have to say.

Yes, sir. I have two questions. I Yes. had a lot of questions when I started and I said I was confused about a gang way. That's the gang way. That's the alleyway. An alleyway is you could Let me finish please. Yes. Who owns that gang way? Who owns that alleyway? I'm not sure if it's his house, but when we've had neighbors in the past, if we had it to get between their all if they had a lock on it or whatever. So, we would ask

if if you were searching for a solution, I would think Mr. A vora might provide what you're requesting, a lock with a key or a lock with a combination.

And if that problem were to go away, the other objection I'm hearing has to do with parking our cars. And I thought I heard Mr. of Bora say something about putting an easement into a deed that would provide off streetet parking up the block that would not tie up or block what way up the block well I'm look I'm not

a magician I'm just trying to get solutions to questions. And if Avora wants to come back up and talk about the gang way issue, accessibility, a key lock, giving you a key or giving you accommodation or doing an easement for parking, I would think that he might come back in January along with the fiscal analysis. And I think I'm not done. Oh, sorry. and have some solutions to these issues or questions that I think are valid that are being raised.

Agreed. I now I'm done. Thank you. Um and I think if memory serves me, uh you raised an issue with regards to a tree. there's a tree in in the backyard or 30004 that needs to be cut down because like I said if it's a rainstorm windstorm or whatever and that tree starts swaying it's coming over I believe into our property it's going to fall into our property or or maybe the next house over and I do have pictures of a tree in the backyard. Let me just ask you know I'm done. So

and you have yet to speak which is fine. I don't know if there's any more people in the audience, but let me ask you three ladies since you're at the podium. If we could, if he could, we could all of us find a parking solution, would that temper your resistance to this project or are you still against it? Still against Still against it. Okay. No. If they were to and and so explain that's what I'd like you to explain further because parking seems to be a recurring topic. So if if the parking is not actually the problem, I just want to know what your resistance is and that you any all of you can each however you want to answer that one.

Okay. The parking is an issue because there's only two spots out in front and he said maybe he can make arrangements up the street but like Joyce said, Mrs. Daniels, where and would anybody actually use that or they all try to be the only ones that get in front of the house? Outside of that, you still have the social nightmare of all those people in that house. He said that someone would be taking care of the garbage cans, putting them in the basement, but that that seventh apartment's supposed to be going in the basement. So, how does that work? Does somebody smell garbage all week while they're in there on that? What's that? Garbage cans would be stored in the basement, but the basement would be one of the seven units. Yes. I'd like to

Two on the first, two in the second, two in the third, and one in the basement. Yeah, I would just like to hear him speak to that. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a problem. Fine.

And um as the head of the neighborhood association for God 25 years, of all of our problems we ever had in South Lancingburg or North Central was always overcrowding of houses at absentee landlords took from a a two or a three or a one or a two and broke them down and it became a social nightmare. Police calls all the time, arguments all the time. And nowadays things are worse. Now when there's an argument in the street, it's not like, "Oh, get out of here." and you call a lot of vulgar names at each other. You pull out a gun and shoot. It's scary. And for the Daniels to be living next door to that, I mean, we tried to resolve this years ago and Timise told us owning was planning changing so we could densify that area and restore it to what it was originally. I mean, these houses were built in the horse and buggy days. You know, nobody had cars out in front. You didn't have two cars per apartment. Sometimes maybe three. You never know. Every situation is different, but you try to, you know, prevent it when it's first starting instead of after it's already been, okay, maybe it'd be good and find out this is a damn nightmare. Yeah, we don't have the resources in the city anymore. The police, you know, to deal with these types of things all the time. So, that's one of the big big big issues.

I I have I have a question also. Sure. The gang way that's an issue or the alleyway between the two houses, is that between I forget what your address was, ma'am. So it is between 3004 and 30,000. Okay. So earlier someone mentioned that I think it was another between four and six.

Yeah. So I So it is the alley the alleyway that you're having an issue with the gang way is between the property in question the 3000 and 46th Avenue and 3000 right next door to each other. Okay. Get in there. Thank you. Thank you. All we needed to have a way of getting in there if we had a problem in my house. That's all we were looking for. Just wanted to just clarify because it was earlier they talked about it differently. Yeah. And I think that's pretty much it. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you for the attention.

Should we ask if anybody else has any comment? Yes. Can I make comment? Is there anybody else who would like to go and speak before Mr. Varo? Yes. Can I make a comment on online? Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Hi. Um, my name is Lion. I am a property manager and landlord on that street. Um, have been for about seven years and generally actually further in that neighborhood. And I will tell you when searching for a tenant, my number one hurdle that I have to overcome when finding someone who's a good fit is parking. Everyone is always concerned about um street parking. Um so it's a point of weakness in that neighborhood, which makes my job as a property manager, as a landlord, more difficult. Um because realistic, I mean being real, everyone has a car. Whether or not um people say Troy is walkable or there's public transportation, it's still a fact that everyone has a car and it is an ongoing issue that I face. Um within that block, I just want to make you all aware uh 306 is a three unit where two units are currently occupied. The third unit on the third floor is not occupied, which means that's one another unit coming online. Um across the street at 3027, it's a the old um Mance building that is being converted into eight apartments, at least eight apartments. um further up the block at 3075 as this gentleman who is bu installing the sprinklers just made note of that is another 12 units coming online. Um and then there are I know another landlord who owns a threeunit on that street as well as another two unit on that street. Um he is he is also renovating and bringing those apartments online. So although Wall-E like I um am sympathetic to the financial hardships of this but typically from a property or a developer perspective there is an order of

operations where you um consider zoning and any variances prior to applying for permits and being issued them and starting construction. And then it's like there's a there's a sequence to go by. Um and and and uh the his problem I I'm I'm sympathetic toward it. However, even if Wall-E can solve for the parking with his specific seven unit, you still have to account for the whole ecosystem of that neighborhood and all the other apartments that are going to be coming online in the next couple of months or within the next year and it's going to be a nightmare. Um, so that's the the parking uh is is my major concern. Um, it's a very busy street and every time people jaywalk all the time. It's like every opportunity to get hit or to have your car swiped. Um, and I actually have to advise my tenants sometimes to park on Middberg um, next to school one because it's there's usually more parking in that space, but then once again, you're having to cross the street, a busy intersection, and it's always like a a danger factor. So, um, that's that is my two cents and I I hope you take it into consideration.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else here or online like to speak?

Just curious on the cost analysis. This is Seth from Matthew Sprinkler. If he does the analysis on a seven unit and somebody decides that he's making too much money, no. No. Does he have to drop it down to a sixunit? That's not That's not what the cost analysis suggests. I mean, if it's if it proves that he spends x amount of money on the building and it it verifies that the seven units okay, I guess, right?

No. What the cost analysis does, think of multicolumns, four unit versus five versus six versus seven. What would it cost to build, complete, modify, or amend to go to a four? What are the rents you would get on a four and show the return on equity? You do the same for the five, the six, the seven.

So that's going to determine how much money he can make on the building. I'm just I mean if he got approve if if the four unit makes money then he has to do the four unit. No. Okay. I'm just I think you're missing my whole point. I I think I am too. What a cost analysis means to me [clears throat] is if I expend X dollar doing this and I get Y dollar in rent or revenue, what is my return on equity?

I understand that. So now compare that to the fifth unit or the sixth unit. So you've got a spreadsheet where you can look at what's reasonable. I don't care if he makes a million dollars a unit. That doesn't that's what I'm asking. What what is reasonable exactly though? Well, that goes back to return on if I guess if he made the same on a four unit as he's going to on the seven unit, then why do the seven unit if you can make the same amount of money? Yes, I I understand that

that's conceptual, but we have an obligation as I indicated before under the use variance to satisfy all four tests and one of the tests is the property is able or unable to provide a reasonable return unless the variance is approved. Okay, this will help us. What is what is a reasonable return that well the numbers will indicate that to us? We have to see the numbers. This is all conceptual. No, I get I get looking at it. I'm just kind of lost as

if I'm losing if I'm losing $10,000 a month cash flow. I have a negative return on equity for a four unit. Yes. But if I can break even on five or make a 10% positive cash flow on six, that demonstrates maybe I need the five or the six versus the four. Well, why can't I go seven and make more money though? I'm not okay. No, I'm not. I'm just [laughter] It's somewhere there's a limit there. We can't do 10 units in this building because Well, we have other non-cost issues that you've heard from the public comments. Yeah. So we have to look at the numbers and then all the other tests that we have to look at as well.

I just wanted to for myself just it's one of many factors but it will help us review the situation. Okay. No set number for reasonable rate of return. It's reasonable in all the circumstances. Yes. That we are aware of. Okay. Thank you. One other point. These these considerations aren't just a troy thing. They're a like a a standard for all zoning boards from my understanding. All use varian. All use variances. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So, this isn't this isn't this isn't the city of Troy coming up with these four things. This is this is everything. Yeah. We're gonna ask him if he wants in January or he wants to vote

or February. You want to come back in February? Ask ask if there's any more public questions. He's done that three times. All right. We're good now. Please.

If I if I Good evening all again. And um would um to the neighbors, I believe your name is Joyce, correct? Yes, I have Joyce's phone number. I have texts of Joyce and I communicating. Wally, um the gang way. What about it? It's it's belongs to me. Oh, it's dirty. Okay, I I'll clean it. I haven't got my permit yet, Joyce. I can't do anything. Joyce texts me again. Wally, um, there's people. I'm like, there's people. What? The building is boarded up. There's no one in there. My guys are working there. There's no one in the building. So, there's been communication. Have you and I had communication, Joyce? It's just a just a no question cuz No, no, no. Your daughter. Your daughter. You have to address.

No, no, I understand. No, no, I understand. But I have we have text messages and that we've communicated. Now the gang way belongs to me. I have no problem cooperating with with with Joyce. If she needs access to the gang way is I'll be more than happy to give her access to the gang way.

No problem at all with that. No problem at all. The other question they have a concern of uh criminal activity. Um, the other lady, I do an extensive background check on all my tenants. I don't it the I do a background check to see if they've been evicted, if they have any criminal activity, if they ever been arrested. I don't allow anyone in there that there isn't a working person, you know, that's going to be good for the neighborhood because I don't want a headache, you know. So, I'm not just going to let any individual in my properties. I invest hundreds of thousands into these business. So why would I let a criminal in one of my apartments

or ma'am? I do I do a background check a background check. I have um a few of my staff members that are here are the ones that operate that. Is everyone here familiar with Appfolio? Okay. You know what though? I don't want to this is this is immaterial. I have one more question. Sure. that they raised was that they that the garbage cans are going into the basement where the Yes, there's Gohead. Go ahead.

Okay. The unit there's a utility room that where um Seth is um putting the sprinklers and there's another utility room where the garbage. So, these these rooms are closed off. They have a door. There's a petition war which divides the unit in the basement which was approved from the unit is separate from where the garbage cans are. That's correct. That's all. Yes. That was the question. Yes. Yes. Okay. I And for the parking, real quick again, who's pulling the cord

for the the question for the parking, there was another concern with the parking. I want to work with the community. I'm I'm for the community. I'm for the people. Okay, let me make that very clear. If she has my number, she has my phone number. I volunteered my number to her to all the adjacent neighbors. And the lady actually just called in. I purchased the building from her. That that was that was kind of funny to me. That was hilarious. That's line maniculus. I bought the building from her, the adjacent building. That's why she knew how many tenants are there. So, it's kind of behoomed to me why was she I I don't I'm a bit puzzled. Well, m there might have been some confusion, but what I'd like to ask in the time frame that you for the hopefully the next board meeting that you'll hopefully provide the costbenefit analysis if you could since you have the phone numbers of the uh uh neighbors

and those and those people are from 6th Avenue. Yes. Right. But if you have the numbers already, if you could come up with a little bit more of a detailed plan for when you come before the board again with regards to possibly that tree removal uh or something addressing the tree. Can I ask in regards to if Okay. Aren't we all for saving the trees? Well, whatever whatever whatever happened to that? Well, whatever there are. So, uh, are we just now trying to think of things to I've never seen the tree s this would have to go through planning as well where something like that could be addressed. Eve, I just want to

Yeah, I got to get a permit to remove a tree. I can't just go and cut a tree. the people who voiced their concerns, whether it's the gang way, whether it's uh the parking easement at that other location, and present to us. Look, we looked at this tree, it's healthy, it shouldn't be a safety issue. Something, man, because we don't know, ma'am, in respect to your question, if I get home tonight and I park my car facing the driveway and my neighbor comes to me, well, I don't like the way you park your car. I want you to This is what we're doing. This is It's something so silly. I I really don't understand it, but I'm willing to work with people.

I make the gang way. I'll put a lock box. Everybody, the whole block, I have access to the lock box. Okay. The tree, I need permission. I'm not going to cut a tree. Understood. Understood. If you Now, the parking is concerned. If if this say they say, okay, if it's a legal three family, I'm maxing for four. That means there's four additional units. That's four additional parkings. I'll make sure as the gentleman here stated that on one of my deeds, which is up the block, it's not even maybe 100 yards. I'll put um on that deed that I accommodate the additional four parking spots. All I'm saying is with regards to something outlining that,

okay, the address, sure, the proposal, the coordination with your neighbors, a inspection of the tree, something that gives us more information than we have now. But we're talking about trees now. I mean, just I'm just Okay, I got it. It's just coordinating with your neighbors. Mr. or respectfully. Would you come back next month then? Or would you like us to vote on it? Okay. Yes. Yes. Next month. Yes. Okay. Thank you. So, don't we have to make a motion to table? So, I'll make a motion to table this until our February meeting the first Wednesday.

I'll second. Uh, I vote to approve. approve. I vote to approve tableabling until next month. Thank you. And approve. He's got approve, too. Approve. Thank you. I want to express our appreciation for your willingness to come back to us with this further information.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity um to come back and come back with all the documents that have been required. Um and again, it's just been an emotional day. Um there's there's a lot going on here. Thank you for all for for for understanding that. I appreciate everyone's time here and um I hope you all get home safe and um on our next meeting. I hope everything works out and I can leave here a happy camp. I'd like to make a motion to adjurnn. I'll second it. Uh approve. Approve. Approve to. Yes. Thank you. Good night everyone.

I know. You should understand what the remarking