Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I mean, he said he was going to talk to me after the meeting tonight. So, she is one year old. I give her one minute. Well, you also have minutes. She's old. She'll be 18 months. Yeah, we got because she has lived her first year. How you doing? Happy New Year. Oh, because of Yeah, they don't count like Wait, what? Cherry blossom. That sounds It's very good. Can I smell it though? that grocery out. I like the the grapefruit is really good. Yeah, I like the grape. Yeah, it's very summer. I like

Yeah, I took some time off two little boys. So, finished dinner, but we survived. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. She sleeps great actually. It's a bad time. No, Chelsea and I are able to go to bed at like I hate to say but so we're in bed like 10:00.

Just let you get settling. All right. A little more a little more well. Not Oh, really? I mean, not like we were It'll never be the same. Why does that feel?

That can't happen with age. You know, it's a little more time to get settled. You know, we're easing into the new year. Okay, everybody. Welcome. Happy New Year to everyone. I hope your Christmas holidays were great. Uh this is the Traverse City Planning Commission regular meeting, January 6th. Uh, call to order. Do we have to take roll call? Um, Commissioner Duri here. Commissioner Hershey here. Commissioner Treadwell

here. Commissioner O'Brien present. Commissioner McGillary here. Commissioner Anderson here. Commissioner Swanson here. Commissioner Cameron present. Thank you. As always, our land acknowledgement. The land on which we gather is the territory of the Ottawa and Chippoa peoples who have stewarded this land throughout the generations. Thank you for your strength and resilience in protecting this land and inspiring us to uphold our responsibilities to do the same. Are there any announcements? Uh none at this time. Office hours. We put it towards it's on the agenda at the end. Oh, it is. I mean you could bring it up but it's it's on there.

Okay. Well, if you want to wait till the end, that's fine. Okay. Okay. So, that takes us to uh approval of the minutes of the December 2nd, 2025 regular meeting. Do I have a motion? I can move to approve the minutes from the December 2nd, 2025 regular meeting minutes. Brian, you support it already? Support. Okay. So, uh all in favor? I. All oppose. Is there any old business? None at this time.

Okay. So, we will move on to new business. This is our organizational meeting where we select new officers. And I just want to say that it's uh you know, it's been my honor to serve as the chair for the last few years. I've worked with some really great people with staff and commissioners, including the commissioners who are no longer on the planning commission on some really uh important things. and uh you know it's been uh great that these people really care about the city and the future of the city. So I want to thank you for that. And tonight we're going to be picking a new chair. So that's always exciting time for an organization. So we're going to start with the election of the officers. And so I'm declaring that the nominations are open and we're going to select officers in the following order. Chairperson, vice chairperson, and secretary. Does anyone have a nomination for chair? Can I add one thing before the nominations begin? Just to clarify that um exeicio members, so that would be commissioners Treadwell, Anderson, and Swanson are not eligible to serve as officers under the state guidelines.

Yes. Thank you. Y Shay, I think I saw your hand up. Who would you like to nominate? I would like to nominate Anna Deter for chairperson. Anna, do you accept the nomination? Yes. Okay. Does anyone else have a name to put forward for chair? Okay, seeing none, uh, we have Anna. Then let make sure I'm doing this right. Okay, now we have nomination for the vice chair. No, no. Yeah, the vote on. You'll need a motion to close the nominations. Second. I do wrong. I move we close the nominations and cast a unanimous ballot for Anna Detroit. Is there support? All in favor? Hi.

Congratulations, H. I'm excited for you. Thank you. All right. Now, we uh have a nomination for the vice chair. Is anybody have a nomination to put forward? Shay. I nominate Brian McGillary for vice chair. Brian, do you accept? Oops. Sure. Accept the nomination. This is a question. So, I have to close this one every time, but it's okay. Uh is there any other name to be put forward for vice chair? Okay. So I'm closing the nominations and I I know Yeah. You I move to close the nominations. Okay. Motion. I do it wrong every motion to close the nominations.

That was you. Yeah, it was me. Support. All we don't have to vote. Yeah, we do. We do. All in favor? I I did read this 20 times wrong. Okay. Uh, so congratulations to Brian as the vice chair. Next is secretary. Do we have a nomination for secretary? I move to nominate. Nope, I don't move. I nominate uh Shay O'Brien as secretary. Yeah. Do you accept? I do. Now we have to have a motion to close the nomination. I move to close the nominations of secretary support. All in favor of closing nominations? I I

Okay, so we've done that. And now we have to vote on each person individually. No, we just did that. Well, why is it number five? I'm not sure because we voted to close nominations. I don't Yeah, we closed nominations, but we didn't actually vote on the motion that Brian made for the first one was to close and unanimously vote for. So, the chair did get voted on, but not the other ones. So, yes, now we have to vote on Okay. Me and Brian. Yeah. So, we have to have a motion second for Brian. So, who moves uh to vote on Brian or the vice chair? I will make the motion. I second.

All in favor? I oppose. Then we go on to Shay as secretary. Who would like to move to? I'll make that motion. Okay. Second. Support. All right. All in favor of Shay remaining secretary. I I All oppose. We got through that. Okay. So, now we're going to take a moment to do musical chairs. Anna, do you want to come sit up here? Sure. Do you want to just swap so we don't make other It's whatever you wish to do, but usually you do sit up here. Yeah. Let's just have us swap. So, okay. Not everybody. And then we can swap the tag. This person ready for this. So much stuff.

That's for Brian. All important. I have no dabble for you, my dear. Use a phone or something. Anna will want this, too. Yeah, I forgot that. You pass my house. Thank you. Oh, no. This chair is not Okay. Thank you.

That was really fast. Musical chairs. Um, so the next item of new business is B, annual bylaw review. Um, we extensively reviewed these last year, y'all. So, um, does anybody have any new thoughts, comments, concerns about them this year that are different than last year, Jackie?

Um, yes. In light of the city having adopted um its new ethics ordinance, I wondered if we would like to consider um updating the conflict of interest bylaws uh page six, section seven uh to align with the ethics ordinance. Let me get there. Is it a certain item, Jackie? Well, um there is a section on page six of the draft. Um it's it's numbered section seven. It has to do with conflicts of interest

and it just seems to me that this is an opportunity for us to um reflect the ethics ordinance that was adopted by the city and that applies to all ah appointed and um uh employed. It's page five of the draft. Sorry, se six or seven of the packet I think is what Jackie me um any other thoughts about that? Uh I Let's go with Mitch then. Brian. Yeah. Uh I guess this is a question for Lauren who is not here. Yeah. But uh

Okay. Even though yes, ethics uh policy did get extensively reviewed multiple times by Lauren, I do wonder if any part of this language is specific to uh the Michigan Zoning Enabling Act um in some way that we can add a section C, but we shouldn't change um A, B, and C. a second. Oh yeah, I'm gonna go to Brian because he was up first, Jackie. But then you

So just to be clear, if you read our bylaws, we would be amending our bylaws. And to amend our bylaws requires a written proposal be presented to the planning commission for consideration prior to the meeting. So we're just discussing everything now. We're not making any changes. I'm open to changes to the bylaws. I just haven't I mean to the ethics aspects of it, but I haven't no one's provided me a copy of the new city ordinance yet and even though it impacts all of us and I have not no opinion on it until I've been presented a copy and see what you're proposing to be incorporated.

Yeah, I that was my first thought is we haven't been delivered it yet. So, I think maybe if this maybe we ask for an a memo from the city attorney reviewing this aspect of our bylaws against andor next to the ethics policy um as well as like asking for a copy of that since we haven't received that yet um to be reviewed at a future meeting because obviously Brian said we can't change it on the fly. And also, um, we can amend these at any time

throughout the year. So, I think there's no real rush. I definitely think we should consider it. Um, I agree with Mitch in that not replacing because we're already adhering to the planning and zoning zoning enabling act, but like maybe an addendum or a D. Um, but again, once I hear from the attorney, I'd feel more comfortable about that. And can I add a suggestion on that? You know, these three items were listed out, the appearance of conflict, contractual conflicts of interest, and financial conflicts. And they were spelled out in the bylaws in absence of an ethics policy that address that.

I think the easiest solution once you're ready to do that in this section is just reference the ethics policy because it's all spelled out there. So that way if the city commission ever makes a change to it, your bylaws aren't going to be instead of conflicting, it just says we will abide by, you know, but um I think it a valid point was made, you know, getting some more information from the attorney and I was in her office today and heard her talking about some training that she has planned in the next uh quarter or two with all the bodies. So I I do believe that information will be coming to you shortly. Jackie,

just to say I merely wanted to put it on the radar um if we'd like to consult with the with the city attorney on that subject for future direction and sharing of information with the planning commission. I'm happy. Do we think that um we need a motion to to get the city attorney's attention to then review and provide us this feedback or is this enough for staff to just take to her? And I think this is enough and based on the comment I heard her made today about the programming that she's working on, I'm confident that it's coming even without a motion in this particular case.

Okay. So then I guess that closes that we're going to come back to this at a future time when we hear from the city attorney the conflict of interest portion and we can amend at any time. Um so are there any other items within the bylaws that we feel like we want to address? Brian was very slow. Um, well, I'm going to try and do this tactfully, and it has to do with scheduling.

Um, you know, we're all unpaid volunteers up here, and we are scheduling our time and working around as I plan my vacation times. You know, I'm scheduling time off uh for, you know, um, avoiding two weeks of the year when possible. Can't always do it. Um, and I will miss some time, but it comes down to uh I'd like to know things if we're going to be I like it's the way our meetings are handled. And right now it's um if there's some conflict sometimes we cancel the first meeting, we have the second meeting. And if you look at our bylaws, we can have study sessions, but we are supposed to meet the first, you know, day of every first Tuesday of the month unless now I understand sometimes staff has conflicts with that and we make changes and I'm not uh and that is we're usually given plenty of adequate notice on that. we know that they're going to cancel it and switch it around. But sometimes we don't have a meeting and then we have a regular meeting in the middle of the month uh at a study session because some applicant comes in and wants to do it and they're not ready for the first meeting. And I guess I would like to see our if there's any interest in it. I would like to see our bylaws really focus on sticking to one meeting, the first meeting of the month and that if currently we require packets or applications be submitted 10 days in advance. And I think that if they want to schedule a special meeting, it should be done no later than the first meeting of the month.

So that gives us two weeks on the third meeting.

Yes. if we're going to have a special meeting. I mean, generally at the first meeting, um, we know, we're informed if we're going to have a study session, um, and what the topics will be and it's put out there for us. But sometimes it just pops up at the end and suddenly we don't we don't find out we have a meeting until the Thursday before. And I'm just feel like our time's not being respected. It's just how I feel. And so I want our time to be, you know, I want people to try and respect our, you know, we have one meeting. We're going to know if we're have a study session. I don't mind meeting twice a month. I just want to know we're meeting. If we're not going to meet, I want to know two weeks in advance. And then if for some reason some you know and that also allows us if we can't make a decision or we need more time and we want to postpone it that first Tuesday to the third Tuesday of the month or reschedule something that's the option we have as a commission. We're all here. We all have our calendars. We can make the decision. But I'm just saying that I don't like these surprise meetings after the first meeting of the month is canceled and suddenly we've got a heavy agenda in what's normally a study session as opposed to you know and just I think that's something I'll write something up if there's any interest in it.

Mitch,

yeah, echoing that it's not unexpected. we have on our calendar every first and third Tuesday or for many days this year they happen to be Wednesdays because holidays uh push city commission meetings back from Monday to Tuesday but we have a set calendar. Uh yes, the city of Trevor City has a lot more going on, including in its planning department than say Grant Township or uh Cassen Township, but the vast majority of other municipalities in Northern Michigan have exactly one planning meeting each month. Uh and the fact that we have two um one for business and another for additional discussion uh does give a little more leeway for us to have longer discussions. But I don't think that that should get abused by a developer that says, "Hey, I can just get it in whenever and I'll get a meeting that will be able to vote on it at the soonest bi-weekly opportunity."

So, did you have something to say, Brian, in response to that? No, I mean, I I agree we can I it's Yeah. No, I think Do you want to go before me, Jackie? No. Okay.

My initial thoughts are yes, I agree. I think that the first meeting should be almost sacred for lack of a better word. I think that the plan the study sessions, we'll get to it later, but we have talked about the rewrite. So I worry that if we the rewrite that is is meant to make this whole thing easier because it's going to condense the dupliciveness of our ordinances, cut down on like the just confusing language and the ambiguous language. So it's just something to think about that if we if we do that if we are trying to prioritize a single meeting and cutting out study sessions that leaves a lot of potential goals in the air unless we have a larger meeting at at the front or you're just saying

I'm just saying I want to know if we're going to have a study session two weeks in advance of the study session. Got it. I don't want to know it on Thursday before the study session. Okay. I want to know at our regular meeting if we're going to have a study session. if the regular meeting is going to be cancelled. I'd like to be able to know that you know for um we've had a couple of staff seminars or you know things that and those things aren't planned or technically they're planned out a year in advance but the people unless you're planning it you don't know about it until three four months sometimes six months whatever in advance.

So then what's your stance on it? So then it's just a matter of that let's put that in the calendar. Now if the staff's going to be you know I don't think it conflicts but you've got the national planning conference coming up. I think that's midappril or late April. So but if that had been the first week of May then you know we know about that. So let's address that in the schedule.

Yeah. let's make a change now in the calendar so we can address those things and it may not we but you know there might be the state conference that might conflict with the first meeting in October well let's change that now when we know when we find that out let's make the adjustment to the calendar then it's not really a bylaws issue it's just yeah let's stay ahead so we know what our calendar is going to be as much as we can because we know there will always be the potential for but I'm we have a lot of things to do on our study sessions. Yeah. That we can do. Agreed. But it's also limited by you know the staff time staff's availability

or just a small part of their job. Um these meetings and so I'm just you know if we're not if they're not ready for it let's know that two weeks in advance. Yeah. And if we're not going to be here just so we know. That's fair. Yeah. And I don't and I agree that I don't think we should ever just try to rush the study session to have it if staff hasn't had time to put all together whatever they need for that rewrite section that we're in or whatever item we're going to address. Um I agree that we should not put that kind of pressure on. Did you say something about a special meeting also?

I just want more context there. So what I meant was in December we had uh our was it December? Was it November? We did the special meeting that was because um the application came in and it was 10 days before a meeting. It got pushed off or we didn't have the first meeting November. I forget what it was. Not didn't have the first meeting because the election it was the election and we were all at the conference the state conference. the first.

But my point being is that if we're going to have a um that it should be the first, you know, that I don't want to be scheduling. Um so I want to know about that. Okay, you're going to be in the conference. You got the election. Let's make that decision two months in advance, three months in advance. Okay,

that's option number one. Number two, I don't want uh um I don't want a developer to show up or maybe the city commission throws something back at us and they want us to have a special meeting at the at our study session uh to um you know on that date because they couldn't get it in here in time for a regular meeting where there's time to act. I'm saying I want to have that discussion by the planning commission for special meetings. I want that that's got to be in 14 days in advance. In other words, if you want to have a if you're a developer and you have something that you wanted you want us to review, but you can't have it reviewed until um but you didn't get your stuff in today. Uh tough. You're going to wait till February. If you got it in yesterday or if you got it in today, actually 14 days in advance

in advance of this. Yes, you got in today and told us they want to do this, they want to schedule this, make it a special meeting, you know, then we can schedule, we could decide if we want a special meeting for them. I'd accommodate it. It's not a huge issue for me, but I don't want to find out that talk about it today and then have it be Thursday and have it and have it they submit it and they say, "Well, it's 10 days. They got to put it on. we have to have a special meeting after I thought I had that time off. Now it gets yanked back. So, you know, it's just it's just a time management thing for every one of us. Yeah. I um Mitch, I'll bump to you and then go to staff because I want their opinion.

Yeah. I'm not expecting us or the planning staff to have perfect foresight, but for study sessions, that should generally be a topic. say housing or some aspect of uh the plan rewrite or we're looking at reszoning this corridor along 14th Street and that will be an extended process. So here we're having a discussion about some aspect of it but we know that Bentley staff will know that uh more than 10 days in advance we can have uh roughly calendared those things and also yes we do have flexibility to have special meetings but we should know sometime in advance uh when that's happening because due to an election due to holidays or whatever. We didn't have the first meeting and other things get pushed back. Um, I'm not expecting every department and board of the city to mirror this, but uh, city manager Marintet has, as the city commissioner, done a very good job of each Friday in his, uh, weekly memo to the city commission, uh, gives a calendar for the next several meetings about specific agenda items that are likely to come up. So last Friday, I pulled it up and I can see for all of the meetings and study sessions in January and February. Are those set in stone? No. The agenda gets set uh the Wednesday before um and then published on Thursday. But that still gives a broad idea about what topics are going to be hitting the plate at what time and gives us even if we

don't have all the memos some idea about what issues are going to be coming up that we can be preparing for and understanding some of the background on.

Jackie, um I just wanted to speak in support of Commissioner McGillary's point um in preparing for tonight. Um, I was I was struck looking over our shoulder at prior meetings at the dir of of planning commission meetings during the month of September and then subsequently a special meeting called with short notice in mid November. So, um, while like Commissioner Treadwell, I don't anticipate that we want staff time dedicated to, um, filling in the the blanks for a for a very complete, um, uh, identification of topics meeting by meeting. Um, I think that the the two-week guideline would be very helpful. Um and and I don't know whether there's any interest in perhaps um re-examining uh who participates in development of of our agendas and and how those happen. So

yeah, Jerry,

yeah, I also I also think like if you are someone that needs to come in front of the planning commission, like there's no harm in saying this is the meeting you can go to. Like we're not going to make an exception or we can get this on last minute. like, "Nope, the next meeting's the first of the month." Because I just think, you know, I know they have a lot going on, but if they're working on a big project, like they got to they should know to build in like I got to do this huge process and go to the planning commission. So, I think if as long as it's communicated to whoever's trying to get in front of the planning commission, like this is our sketch, you know, plan on the first month meeting of the month versus oh, we can get in

Yeah. at the special meeting last minute because then that would eliminate some of the last minute stuff. Okay, staff, let's hear everybody's thoughts.

Yeah, I'm happy to accommodate that. I just want to clarify like we don't get pressured by developers to to hold the special meetings and push things faster than I mean because anything that comes to you has to go to design team before it even comes to you for staff review. So that automatically means it's sitting for two weeks after the application. So we haven't been in a position yet. We have tried to accommodate out of fairness in the past. So like the November special meeting was the result of their application was turned in in time for the the meeting on the first but it was canceled. So they were waiting for an answer for the planning commission. So then they could go to the city commission. So we wanted to move them along. And the other one being um in July. We typically have a special meeting in July because we don't have the first meeting because most people aren't available. So in some of those cases um that's that's where that originates. But I just want to clarify like we we've never accommodated a developer saying I want this before the regular meeting. They they don't even really ask um okay about that. Um and then the other thing I was going to say oh and sometimes the special meetings are actually um generated by other departments. So the meeting that is scheduled in two weeks is prepared to be a special meeting because the engineering department this month is going out to bid on their projects for this next year and they need the location character extent review by the planning commission before they can go to bid. So that is something they came and talked to us about um today. So uh not a development you know just a city uh city business situation that needs a decision by the planning commission.

Okay. Any other thoughts? Okay. Um, so we're having a special meeting this next in two weeks. It'll be a special meeting. I mean, we we're going to have the meeting regardless because we're going to be going over the annual report for the planning commission and stuff like that. So, it was already scheduled. I mean, it is the third Tuesday, too. But, then engineering asked if they could have a decision because they need to go out to bid. We said, "Well, we will be scheduled. we could, you know, move that along. So that's the intent for two weeks from now. Just to give you a heads up on that.

So I guess a clarifying question then if we already have content that has to be on that meeting that staff has already plugged in and then somebody comes to them whether it is a developer or a text amendment or city or whatever and they've decided that a decision has to be made, you're that's fine as long as you get that two weeks notice.

I'm getting it. I'm learning about it now. I know what my schedule's going to be. Look at I have those dates scheduled throughout my calendar for the year. Okay. So, they're booked. I just want to know two weeks in advance if we're going to be meeting that second that's having if we're having a second meeting that month. You know, that's fine. I don't mind having the second meeting. I'm just saying if we're going to have it, I want to know it and I want to know what's on the calendar and what we're going to discuss. And I don't like coming in for a meeting that we spend a second meeting and we only or a first meeting where we only spend 30 minutes or we're out of here in less than an hour, but I got to come back, you know, next month or in two weeks for another hour. I'd like to get things a little bit more condensed if possible. I mean, I don't if we cancel the first meeting and go right to and just have a second meeting.

I'd rather have a two-hour meeting than two one-hour meetings. Um, I think that works for everyone. It's not always possible. Yeah. But, you know, and that's good. And I think we met this July during Cherry Fest, didn't we? I think we did the second one. We didn't meet We didn't. We So, maybe we should just cancel that. I do think that's fair. Let's just change the count. We have one meeting. You said if you were chair, you wouldn't have summer meetings. I remember you saying I know, but I'm only vice chair, so I don't need to cancel one. You get to cancel one,

you know. So, if we're only going to have that one meeting, we should just schedule it now and eliminate the first one off my calendar. So,

I think Yeah, I I hear you. I think a a lot of that is fair. I guess I would say since we've now talked about this topic for a long time, um I want to keep us moving, but I think that my idea just off the top of my head is in the planning department reports like when we get to the reports section on the agenda, maybe that's where you're like, well, as of today, here are some of the potential like this is what we think we're going to cover at the next session. we're definite or like so we're definitely holding it or we're not holding it and here are some of our topics just like a blip outline so that we can jot I think we're adults we can jot it down ourselves so that we can prepare um but at least we're getting a little bit of that and then staff and I can work maybe with something more in detail down the road when if and when they have capacity and we have time to come up with a better system of like the potential potential review that you've talked about, Jackie. I think that like asking for that right off the bat is like not attainable. So, I think if we start maybe putting it in reports, that would be great. Like you would stick in today's planning department report like this, we're having it blah blah blah. Um just to see if that works for a little bit. Um yes, I agree. I think we are asked a lot of ourselves especially with in with the last couple years master plan there have been a lot of meetings. So I hear that.

Um any other bylaw review conversations because that was not really Yes, Jackie. Um, I I noticed in looking at the uh section 9H about public hearings that um there it requires a one-year delay for reconsideration. And my question is whether that's aligned with the comparable policy of for reconsideration um in the city commission bylaws. Is it is it the same? Is it different? If it's different, I I wondered why. So, some help with that would be appreciated.

Yeah, I'm not familiar with the city commission bylaws. Um I I've seen that so consistently that I wonder if it's not spelt out in the planning enabling act. Um I'll cross reference that. Um I see that a lot in planning commission bylaws, the one-year wait for public hearings. So perhaps we could add that to the question list for Lauren. Um, and what were you saying, Leslie? Oh, I was just going to say it's usually in the zoning ordinance as well

that the same application can't come before you. Uh, whether it's for reszoning or uh uh like a a zoning board of appeals request or anything. Generally, those have to be uh you have to wait a year. and you're just wanting it to be aligned or I'm just wondering if it's not aligned, is there a a good reason? And and if there isn't a good reason, do we want it to be aligned? The city commission rules, if I recall, vary based on what's being voted on and what kind of or whether it's an ordinance, a resolution, whether it's zoning, it's like

budget budget. There's all sorts of So, I mean, some of the stuff doesn't apply to us. Yeah. It's Yeah. So, it's But generally, it's all I think I think they're right. It's all laid out in ordinance

and most planning commissions will implement something like that in their bylaws to frankly not waste your time. Like I worked for a planning commission once where someone wanted to do a fireworks tent and it was voted no and they just kept applying every month till the planning commission is like, "We've already voted." You know, like unless you've changed your proposal we're, you know, so they they kind of beef that section up a little bit to give them the strength they needed. So that's really where a lot of that originates is so that once you've made a decision, someone doesn't just keep coming back to you because if they do submit an application without some of that spelled out, those limitations,

then you have to afford them to due process and go through the process again. It could if it's one that requires a public hearing, I mean, that could get very expensive month after month doing the same notices and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, is this worth an ask of Lauren to just get her take on it? Oh, yeah. We can. Yeah. I I don't know that's as much a legal thing as it is more of a review of the other policy. Do you want to be inconvenienced by having someone in my five years here, it hasn't happened, you know, but I I have been in communities where they've had those reoccurring applications just keep coming and coming for the same project from the same developer even after a decision was rendered. But I'll I'll definitely Yeah, I think just tack it on to the

city. What does the city commission say about it? What does theirs say? Brian said it depends on the item like type and there's a lot of complexity. Sometimes you can bring it back. Sometimes there's a 90-day rule, sometimes it's by bylaw, sometimes it's by state law, sometimes it's by ordinance. There's like three different scenarios because every time we thought we knew what it was, Benjamin would say, "No, in this case, this is what applies." And it was always the clerk. So, attorneys to but that city commission has to deal with. There's so many more different topics that have different

Yeah, I I feel more comfortable asking Sarah at this point, I think, as the clerk based on what you just said, Brian, because I just don't want to take up Lauren's time. We've already got one ask into her that I think is more important. Um, so maybe we just have a review of the two and see what Sarah thinks. and and then we're definitely going to come back to bylaws at some point because the conflict of interest things. The thing about it is here's the you know if you want to reduce it from a year the fact is we can there is a we can wave the rules if we decided we wanted to wave the rules we could so I don't know if you'd want to reduce that time someone has a good reason they want to substantially change your proposal want to bring it back we have the ability under our bylaws to change it it's in the ordinance then we can't so it doesn't matter But that's always an option. So I don't see, you know, if you want to lengthen it to two years, that's a whole other story.

Yeah. Yeah. I I feel even better that you brought that up that I'll we'll have the clerk review and then get back with us. Mitch, did you have something or not? No. Okay,

great. Jackie. Okay. Um, in section 10A regarding public comment during agenda items, um, it it currently reads, "As part of its deliberation, the planning commission may clarify, answer questions, and ask questions as a result of public comment." Um, I am seeking some clarification on on how this looks in real life. Does this imply that we have the ability by bylaw to interact with public commenters? Um, because I think it could be read that way. So, I guess I'm asking about intent and and if the phrasing needs to be um clarified. It says as a result of public comment. In other words, someone gets up, they make a public comment, they have their time in front of us. It's not our time to interrupt. As a result of their public comment, we can then ask questions. You could potentially ask a question of the member of the audience or you can, but generally we would just simply make a comment regarding their public comment. We can make we can ask staff questions about it. We can ask the applicant a question about it

as a result of public comment. I think that's the key word. Not during public comment. As a result of public comment, which means after public comment, we could ask those questions. Yeah. I think it's just giving you permission to continue some sort of conversation because as far as I'm concerned, we can't be going back and forth. We can't be answering questions. And is that actually in the bylaws? that's in the zoning enabling act. Okay. Then I would suggest that I I I find a simple reading of this to not be as clear as your understanding. I would propose that it be rephrased for better clarity, Mitch.

Yeah. and both from a range of city boards and from a lot of other municipalities. The only time I have seen uh questions getting asked of a member of the public that isn't the applicant or um a staff person is uh when we find through a person getting up and speaking publicly that we have an expert in the room that can answer questions that have been raised. that uh the applicant and staff uh other people are unable to answer. Uh but that is a rather unusual circumstance that not saying that members of the public don't bring expertise uh but uh they are generally not uniquely qualified to answer specific questions that can't be better answered by staff, by the applicant themselves, or by somebody else that we can go and find that didn't uh show up to voice a specific opinion.

Debbie, I'm reading it. Maybe this is what Brian was saying. As part of its deliberation, the planning commission may clarify. So, you know, it does suggest after public comment, as part of our deliberation, we can clarify. We have occasionally answered a question um that several members of the audience might bring up. Um, but it's, you know, again, as you said, Anna, we're not supposed to have this dialogue back and forth, but to me, it's clear because it says it's part of its deliberation. Um, and and you can answer questions, you can ask questions, and that may be um asking staff the question, not necessarily the public question. And I I remember we spent a long time on this section. Yeah.

And that's the kind of thing we talked about. So to me it's clear. Any other thoughts? I I could not even have this sentence in here. Like I don't think we need that kind of clarification in here. I think it's clear what it's clear to me what public comment during agenda items means. Um this because this is not this is not speaking to us. It is speaking in particular to the public comment that happens after every agenda item. So it's really just saying you can deliberate about it after if you want but like in a really lengthy confusing way in my opinion. It's like there's too many why does answer questions and ask questions. you could just say answer and ask questions like it it really is a clunky sentence. Um so I'd defer to the group. I think it's a good point in that it probably isn't needed and it is pretty confusing but also like is it worth going through the I don't know going through the whole process of removing that single sentence at

well the bylaws are going to if you know again it comes back down to amending the bylaws. If someone wants to make a proposition, put it in writing, submit it to us for our next meeting. Uh yeah, 10 days before the meeting. So that's Thursday or for a future meeting and it's on the agenda, we consider it. Yeah. Simple as that. So you know, fair. Any last thoughts on bylaws because I think that's a good ending point. Jackie,

just one more please. Um, in section 10, uh, item D about unduly repetitive public comment, um, it it appears right now as though the presiding officer, which would ordinarily be the chair or the vice chair, has a unilateral authority to terminate what they determine to be unduly repetitive public comment. And I would ask my colleagues whether there is any value in having that require a a motion from the commission and a majority vote of people on the commission rather than it being a unilateral decision. We've never had that happen. So I in my opinion I don't think it's necessary. Like I don't ever plan on interrupting a public comment ever other than when it's disrespectful. But if it's unduly and repetitive, I we sat through hours of repetitive conver like comments. So I'm fine with it.

But I think this is why a good reason why it's there. Sometimes a a comment circulates amongst 30 people and 30 people get up and word for word read the exact same comment. And I think if that keeps happening, it's okay for the chair to say, "Does anyone have a comment other than what we've been hearing?" Because we've heard this now 22 times, the exact word for word. And I think that's why it's in there. It's not trying to cut people off necessarily, but you know, meetings, as you know, can run to 11 o'clock if 50 people are reading the exact same thing over and over again. And I think that's what the unduly repetitive means.

I That's fair. I hadn't thought about that instance of like a script. Yeah, it has happened. It has happened. Jackie, if if there's no intention to use it and if we run the risk of infringing upon individual freedom of speech, should we simply remove it? No, I think the authority makes sense if it's happened before, like Mitch and Debbie just said. Uh, how often has it happened? Rare.

Couple times. Yeah, I I guess I'd go back to what Brian said, which like if somebody has if you feel strongly, Jackie, about wanting it removed, I we can you can put it in writing and bring it up bring it back before us, but I'm not getting the vibe from people that it's necessary to remove it right away if it Yeah, Jerry, I'm sorry. Are you asking us to remove it or are you asking us to remove the part where there's a vote? I'm asking it to retain the right to exercise that but to have it be a consensus of she wants a vote on a vote of the commission rather than a unilateral decision single officer by a single officer. That just seems like prolonging the meetings to me.

And it's what the presiding officer's job is. Yeah, Jerry, sorry. Yeah, I'm never heard that term. Not trying to look something up, but it the definition of it is literally to like disrupt some sort of proceeding by being adding no value, slowing down, frustrating. Like that's the point of duly repetitive. So I guess I get why we would want to prevent that. Mhm. Like if it was clear that they were just I've watched meetings where yeah there's obviously like people that are there to disrupt or

make the meeting more frustrating. So I don't know. I think the chair can make that call if it's I think we would all know that that would be happening if there's 30 people in a row just saying the same time.

Yeah. The one last other thing that I'd say about it is it throws an air of complication in the middle of a public comment to then have a motion and a second and a vote. And that's a lot on staff potentially. So like I I again I'm open to the idea of it if we all want to review this at at a later date and amend the bylaws. Definitely I'm open to it if enough people want to. Um, I think at this point it's not it's not a strong enough occurrence for us to go through an amendment. Looking at faces, any other bylaw thoughts, comments, concerns? Brian,

just as an FYI, the bylaw amendment requires that they be submitted in writing to a meeting and then action has to be taken at a subsequent meeting. So you have to review at that review for that first meeting and then think about it and and then review the subsequent meeting. So it's a two meeting process. Two meeting process. FYI, if you get it in on this next our next meeting, you can deliver it. You can debate it on the third and I won't be here. Very strategic. Very. Yeah. Okay.

So, get it in. Get them in early, kids. Any other bylaw conversations? Okay. Um, do we want Let's open a public comment. I guess that it's typical to open the public comment after every item. Um, so I'll open public comment on the annual bylaw review top uh agenda item. Excuse me. Seeing none, I'm going to close public. Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, this is something I'm not used to. Okay. Please state your name, address, city,

city resident or not. And you have three minutes, two minutes you want. Yeah. Well, what's the usual? We say three. I think though in the bylaws it says five. Sometimes most of the time we don't say the ability. You get the memo. Thank you. All right. Paul Wilkins, 610 North Madison Street. Um, number one, I guess I'd like to uh congratulate the planning department because Is it not right that you guys won the gingerbread contest? They did. They did. Oh, I didn't know that. Sounds great.

There are pieces of it in the office. You want to see it afterwards. Having worked for an international company as an engineer and a business manager, um we really worked to be efficient and we worked on commonality and seeing that there are many appointed boards within the city and there are many opportunities for public comment. I can't believe that there's not a common statement as far as how to deal with unruly repetitive statements. that that statement should be common across all bylaws. I would think it would certainly be more efficient for our attorney to review it one time and then put it in every bylaw. Uh same thing with the uh the verbal interaction. Guys, this this is a no-brainer. This is efficiency. Um I just I'm stirring in my seat over here going, "Why are we doing this?" and having their attorney spend time reviewing it for your department. Just saying. Thank you.

Thank you. Any other comments on the bylaw agenda item? Okay, seeing none, closing public comment. Um, as long as we are having the city clerk get back with us on whatever the other item was. I'm blanking now. The time limit, the how soon you can bring something?

Yes. Can we also ask her if they have unduly repetitive in shouldn't that be something that's like relatively easy for her to review like light and power and see if they have unduly repetitive. I mean it's like a control F situation in my opinion. Um but I guess any one of us could also do that. We could pull up these bylaws for light and power and parks and wreck and see if they have that kind of nature. Can I make a comment, please? Yep. That's really the purview of the city commission and city staff. We're a planning commission. If they lay this stuff out for us, that's fine,

but it's not our job and it's not the planning staff's job to go through everyone else's bylaws for every other committee. Fair. It's their job to make sure that our bylaws are, you know, are reflective of what we do. So, we do have, you know, requirements in the state level and the zoning ordinance that guide this, which is different than every other. So, but there should be some commonality. Yes. But that's an efficiency question for the city manager, the city attorney, city commission, not the planning commission, not the planning staff. Fair. I agree with you. You're right. It is in the city. Yeah, I was just going to say I control left it.

I appreciate people control repetitive or impede the orderly progress of the meeting. Perfect. Okay, this language does come from ignore. Let's just Yeah. Okay, great. Perfect. Um, okay. Thank you all. Very thorough bylaw conversation. Okay. Agenda item C, 2026 planning commission goals. Yeah, I'm gonna hand this one over to Leslie to continue the conversation from the update this summer and there. Thank you.

Okay, so um I have put together some uh proposed goals for the planning commission for this year. Tried to make it a little bit more concise and it's really heavy on the rewrite or reconsolidation of the zoning ordinance. Um, it's been talked about within our office. It isn't really hasn't really been called out in the past. I think if you know might be a good time to uh just confirm that this is a goal of the planning commission to do a full rewrite to make it a little more clear and fix some inconsistencies and just get a fresh copy um without a lot of amendments within it. It's always a nice thing to do uh to get a a new ordinance, newly formatted ordinance. So, a lot of these would be part of that. Um additional changes to the zoning ordinance relative to uh zoning amendments that are called for specifically under the master plan. Uh and then other ones that have been sort of on the list. Um and then there's some intertwined projects that would be um necessary in order to make some of those changes. Things like a corridor plan for 14th Street. Um, we've talked about doing um, uh, a pattern book, um, or some kind of pre-approved plans, plan sets for certain, um, housing types. Uh things like that that are a little bit

um more projectoriented, might um involve more resources, things like that, but would inform the zoning ordinance are also listed on this list. Of course, the repairarian buffer committee, which I can give you an update on. Uh repairarium buffer ordinance is also on here. I don't know if you want to try to put this in a certain order or prioritize or hit on certain things that are mustd dos for this year that you consider really important to get done. Um or if you think that something's missing. Okay,

Brian, we debated this quite a bit in the summer. I don't see anything new on here. You didn't try slipping anything anything in there, Leslie. Um, so, you know, I have my disagreements with it then. I still have my disagreements now. I'm not going to rehash them. Yeah. Unless somebody has something they want to add. Uh, the only thing I really think is, you know, my top priority is let's get the riparian buffer ordinance done. You know, that's really should we just need to move it along. But a lot of this other stuff, um, zoning rewrite, you're going to hire a contractor. Is that in the budget? We were going to do it in house. You're do it in house.

Thought you were going to do it. You guys were looking at in house. Yeah. Busy busy year. Yeah. Started yesterday. They'll hire interns. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah. More work for us, too. Also, my top priority is the riparian buffer. Not because it is the single highest priority in all of Trevor City planning and zoning, but it is something that I hold uh deeply personal to myself. It's something that I and the it's something that city planning has been working on longer than any of our current planning department staff have been in their jobs. It's true.

Yeah.

Right. which I think speaks for itself. This has been six years in the work and yes there were uh there was a pandemic, there were other delays, there were various things that happened um and re-examinations of scope of specific portions of uh what does Lauren have to say legally about what we can do here or there? But I'd say it's long overdue. I like it being a goal though. I would uh actually strike E under the five bullet points fold into full um zoning ordinance three. Right. Not that we won't do it, but that I don't see that as the specific step in this process anymore than it is for any other ordinance. Uh, yes, we're working on it and depending on where we are with the rewrite, it will get incorporated in, but we shouldn't view this any different. Once it's written as our other ordinance has have been and we get it to a form that we are ready to adopt, then we can vote on it and pass it and city commission can vote on it and how it falls with the rewrite is just how it falls. Okay. Um, one thing I don't see a specific like bullet point that addresses this, but one thing that I thought about is um, when we talked about the project in November or December, the project, the PUD, is it PUD? Lot size requirements.

I'd like to talk about that. I think that that lot size requirement feels too large. I mean, it would be interesting for somebody to research how many lots even would qualify for that in the city as part of a rewrite conversation just as like a bullet point within the rewrite because if we don't even if we have one lot left in the city that qualifies for that, that feels like a silly size limitation, an arbitrary limitation. Um, I didn't really see that fitting in here. I'm sure it would organically come up, but just to think about like as part of the rewrite um the historical context of why we put that there like because sometimes there will be zero historical context. Sometimes I'm I guarantee we'll find something that somebody just arbitrarily decided in the '9s that that was the number we're going to go for. So like that kind of background information and context would be helpful on any portion of the rewrite. Um just so we can think about it from their lens and also from our lens which is future focused. Debbie

I have a couple things. So similarly the discussion that we had about building material durability and remember you created those uh charts from other communities. I'm going to hopefully finish off that discussion and come up with our own parameters. Um, also under the communication goal, I just want to ensure we really do have joint planning commission and city commission meetings where we really sit down and talk about a subject and and discuss it thoroughly, not that something's presented to us, but that we talk with one another. And then um the last thing I need to bring up and uh I guess it's under I'm not really sure where it fits, but I just wanted you to know um I had a have had two conversations with the city attorney about the relationship of the city strategic plan to the master plan. and um she is willing to write a memo about this, but she needs a motion um from this board to uh ask her to write this memo um on the relationship between the strategic plan and the master plan. And um I would like to put that motion forward so we can get that going because um we've talked about it a couple of times and I think many of us felt like hey you know there's not an attorney sitting here to explain it to us. So we would like to have some clarity. So I'd like to put forth the motion that we um we ask that we request from the city attorney that she produces a memo and the relationship between the city strategic plan and the master plan.

I'll second that. Okay. Jackie, wait. Do can we engage in conversation before the vote? Yeah. And we typically would open up public comment prior to the vote. Yes. Okay. Sorry, Jackie. Go ahead. Okay.

Um I I would appreciate hearing from our city attorney on that subject. Um, I have some suggestions for specifics because the strategic action plan that's being developed as a result of the adopted strategic plan um does include department level objectives and key results and that as I understand the process that's going to be reflected those those OKRs are going to be reflected in the budgeting process coming up this year as well as um you know performance evaluations. It's going to it's going to be integrated throughout a number of city processes. And um my request relative to these goals for 2026 was to ask for some commentary on how exactly they support um the OKRs for the planning department because I think the money will follow the OKRs and and that can impact how far we can get on these goals. OKRs.

OKRs, objectives and key results. Yeah, they're like a marketing term. You've been in city government too long now. You're adopting the acronym SU. Anyway, so I think should we should we broaden that to include, you know, the stage that the strategic plan is at, which includes objectives and key results at a department level? I'm not interested in that. I I really It's a really simple qu it's a really simple question. planning department.

Um I believe that staff will dictate to us, not necessarily this staff, but their supervisors will dictate to us how by way of just seeing what their responsibilities are and what they have to prioritize. I I don't think it's our place to be involved in that. I think it's our place to stick with zoning and to stick with land use and like how staff spends their time and what they have to prioritize is not our responsibility as a board to be managing unless it pertains specifically to land and land use. So I I don't think I'm interested I I would be surprised if it wouldn't come up as part of her conversation. um or as part of her review, the city attorney's review. But yeah, it doesn't it doesn't make sense for me to have that at this point. I want to first find out whether or not we're even beholden to a strategic plan, frankly. Brian.

Um, so I mean the outcomes and the OKRs whatever uh for the departments is not the outcome from the planning commission. The planning commission is an independent body. Okay. So you can make you can make goals for us but it's would be I don't think you have you've made goals for the planning department. If you've made goals or you want things to come out for the planning commission, then that's a discussion you need to have uh it's a peer-to-peer discussion that needs to be had. That being said, if there are things in the strategic plan you want adopted into our goals, this is the time to put them forward because we're talking about is there anything else we want to add into our goals. So, I think you've got to say if you've got things that you want added in, then you should present those things for our consideration. Uh, but we're not giving we have goals for things the planning commission here wants to accomplish, not what the we want the planning staff to accomplish because like you said, we're only a part of their job. So, I know people think that that's all they do, but you know, they're involved. You know, so many other aspects of city government um are intertwined. Um so,

so I'm open to hearing them, but this is a separate motion. I think I'm hearing you say that the strategic pillars within the plan, things like um affordable housing, um is that you believe our planning commission has the opportunity to discuss as as a goal for 2026.

If if you want to put that forward as a goal, then you should submit that. You shouldn't ask me whether or not you know I mean really it's it's a question of presentation should be I want to come up with ideas for increased affordable housing. I wanted to continue that as a goal. It's been on our goal sheet in the past. And if you have while that's a great pillar and a goal, it'd be good if you have concrete strategies to address that. Some of that stuff we've already done and we did have a meeting with the city commission on that and we talked a little bit about, you know, maybe there's some things that we could do

outside the city commission and that staff can do. But that's a direction from staff. You know, I mean, that's a direction from the city commission to staff. You know, if you recall from that meeting, my approach was we should take it everything with a broad brush. Let's get it all out there so it can be used. Let's do the establishment. The city commission's decision was to focus on only one aspect, one thing at a time. Okay. So that was your position and that's kind of how staff will react to that. We can't tell staff to go against, you know, the city manager and that the city manager isn't supposed to go against the city commission. But if you want us, if you have something to say, well, affordable housing is a great goal for the city. I don't but I mean personally it's you got to have a you know when you guys have your action plan put together and you have things come back and let's talk about it or if you have things actual steps to do I mean we have goals affordable housing but how are we going to accomplish that goal this is our it can be an objective but I need something to you know come up with something else that you want under there for how are we going to do this or the steps we're going to take

and frankly A lot of the sub bullet points I think could tie back to it. We just don't have a a listed goal. But like under

the complete rewrite objective two C, we talk about setback considerations. That's pretty vague. So we could talk about any and all setbacks which in my opinion would have an impact potentially on housing. So they could tie back. I just think that this kind of way provides a hopefully a little more structure and guidance for us to check some of these off throughout the year. Mitch,

yes, housing uh I would say is a bigger priority than the repair and buffer as a community level. Uh we have checked off a number of specific uh planning and zoning related tools for housing over the past several years. But for the last or this is the first time in at least six years that housing in some specific way hasn't been a part of the planning commission goals. And I don't think we should have one word housing, but to recycle the language from a previous year of pursue opportunities to expand the availability um and diversity of housing types in the city. That isn't specific to um some zoning change here or there, but it can cover a wide range of things that may come up in the future. And that can tie into, oh, as we're doing not just setbacks, but if we're doing the reszoning on 14th Street, we have inner goals to u expand housing. So, how can that work into this discussion? And yes, it's vague. It's not something that you can just check off and say, "We did that and it's done for all time." But I would like to see something in there.

Yeah, I we do have the motion and we do have to go to public comment. So I think we should Are we okay with going to public comment and then coming back and continuing this? Yeah. So, and this I mean this motion is really I mean honestly I'm tempted to vote no. I don't mind it. I'm happy to do it. But the fact is is that we're supposed to be we're talking about our goals and this is kind of outside the whole question of the goals. So I don't think this ends the goal discussion. No, but I think it fits under correct address that first. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to open public comment. We're going to come back to the motion. Then we can keep going with goals.

Could we have a reminder of the motion, please? A re reread of the motion. Katie, did you capture that? I captured some of it. Or Debbie, can you help me? I said request from the city attorney that she produces a memo for the planning commission. I forget how you word. Regarding the relationship between the city strategic plan and the planning commission's master plan relation. Okay. Uh what what was the word before? What did you say? Relationship. Relationship between reiterating orating.

Relationship between this city commission strategic plan and the planning commission's master plan. Okay. Okay. We're going to open public comment. Then we're going to come back to goals. Vote. Nope. You're right. Then we're going to come back to vote. Then we'll go back to goals. Correct. Okay. Is there any public comment on the goals for the planning commission? That's the specific item we're talking about now. No, not the goals. You're talking about the motion. I'm so sorry. But is there public can there be public comment on the motion? Okay.

Public comment on the motion. Yes. Great. So, we're doing public comment. I'm so sorry. On the motion for the city attorney to review the relationship between the strategic plan and the planning body's master plan. Okay. I'm I apologize for having to amble through that. Okay. Seeing no response, closing public comment on the motion coming back to the body. All those in Oh, do we discuss or do we have can ask if there's any further com any further comment on this motion? Yeah, Jackie. Point of order. This motion and and this topic was not noticed in the agenda.

It's not required to be, I don't think, if we're just asking for a memo. We're asking for a memo. And I I wasn't really sure where to bring it up, but I thought it fit under communications goals. In order to get the memo, we need to have a motion and and a vote or we can't have the memo. It's I think it's a questionable Yeah. appropriateness, but I think it's it's there. Let's just do it. Um, in this case, it's not a it's questionable, but I wouldn't, you know, I don't want to spend an hour studying it one way or the other. Yeah.

Okay. Are we ready for a vote on the motion? Okay. So, all those in favor of the motion, I I. All those opposed hearing none. Motion passes. Thank you. Okay. Goals. Back to goals.

I I have to agree with Mitch. I'd like to have a either something that carries over from last year, whatever we said about housing, and if some of that has been accomplished, we'll take that out and see what's left. But I I always want to have a housing goal in here. Um, just to be fair, the communications one is carrying over and can I see you just specifically I'm asking the housing to carry over. Okay. Yeah, Brian. Um, wasn't wait.

Okay, Jackie. Um, in terms of this as a goal setting process, this is um has some gaps in it for me. Um, one of them has to do with uh accountability for the results. Um, and I would propose that we begin our deliberation on 2026 goals with a rather more complete wrapup of how far we got on our 2025 goals. Um, I was struck by the number that are being carried over. I'd like to understand why those didn't get completed. you know, what did happen, what didn't happen, what were the barriers. Is there anything that we can anticipate and and um be proactive about working through in 2026 if we do carry them over? Um so I think that that sense of holding ourselves accountable. I'd like to propose that we request from staff um a quarterly goal progress report that would help us to understand, you know, so that so that hopefully something like the repairarian buffer ordinance um isn't uh carried over for a period of years that we can um help help ourselves to be disciplined in in the timelines for these goals that we apparently want to be serious about. Um,

can I hold on that one because I I I C I think addresses that and I wanted to see if Leslie had an answer to that because I I would like to continue my comments if you don't mind. Okay.

Um, and then the other issue that I have is to do with alignment and I appreciate that we'll have a commentary from uh the city attorney on her perception of master plan versus strategic plan. I think that um alignment of every department in the city uh with the strategic plan is um it's coming. it's going to be happening through the through the budget process this year and on an ongoing basis and that we should be prepared as as the owners of land use in the city to be responsive to that. Um that's my perspective and anything that we can do to um enable that would be a positive not a negative. I think the further we divorce ourselves from the strategic plan process um the less successful we'll be. Um so accountability and alignment um are are my watch words in looking at at goals, goal setting, goal performance. I think that we need to be more diligent about establishing timelines and identifying resources and setting priorities for these goals. Um, if you read through Leslie's very excellent October summary of where we stood after after nine months, um, it w it was difficult to see to not notice that there appeared to be more items on the on the um, staff initiated side that were that were making progress and getting completed than perhaps there were out of our original set of goals. There are many possible reasons for

that, but I think that part of our oversight responsibility should be to ask for that information. Thank you. Okay, so accountability, I see the improved communications uh item C sounds like that's kind of in alignment with what I'm hearing Jackie wants. And I think that we did talk about last year having some sort of checkpoint. Can you expand on that a little bit just to see if I'm in alignment with what that item means?

So that item C, which is a development dashboard to publicly track development projects, is really more like we have an applicant who's come in. this is where they are in the process and has that been built and even um or you know has it been permitted and where is it in the process?

Gotcha. And um that's even part of the redevelopment ready requirements. Um and uh you know there are some places like uh the city of Grand Rapids where they have a complete dashboard and map that goes with it where you can find every open permit for everything whether it's you know as small as a um you know adding a deck or something to your house or a porch. um everything's on there and you can track them all. I don't know if we need that level, but we we should be tracking those things and making that publicly available information, but I don't you know, we've in the past we've done the the Gant charts showing uh proposed months to get each of these goals um addressed. Uh, and I think it would be a good um way of tracking all of these to keep a Gant chart um up to date on the website um and move, you know, move those uh projects along um in that kind of dashboard so that we can all see where they're going and what hasn't been hit yet. So, um you know, I don't know for sure if that gonna fly. We have the capability of doing that, but I think um that could maybe be added under communication.

Okay, Debbie. Love the Gant chart because it really was helpful. Something else that's easy to do that might also be helpful is when you're listing the agenda items, put in parentheses next to it each item if it if it applies like I'm just saying communications goal A. you know, this has to do with that. Um, so that we can look on our agenda and see that the things we're talking about are pertaining to different goals and we know that we're doing work towards reaching them. That's an I think that's a fair idea, Jerry.

Yeah, just looking back at our goals, I think we from 2025, we did didn't we re go over them in the fall? Yeah. Yeah. February 2nd. But like for example, I'm looking at the short-term rental ordinance. Um that was a goal. From my understanding, we did our part and we sent it to the city commission and So is that goal to to reflect? Is that goal done? Did we do our part and now we're like from the planning commission we we set it up. We gave an assessment

and now we have to wait until it comes back. I'm just wondering like when can we say that goal was reached even if it's not if it's out of our hands if if the city commission has to now run with it the planning commission we did our part at this point until we get more direction. Right. Yeah. Unless we decide to attack the issue from a different direction. Correct. Yeah. So which would be foolish without direction from the city commission

because we don't know how it's going to land. So, here's my opinion on goals. I think I think Jackie, you definitely won't like this, but I do think there are other people that won't like this. I don't really care about them. I care about them. If somebody is managing a person, sure, get a couple goals here and there. I think they are unfair. I think we should have goals for ourself as a body that we can we can know whether or not we're in the right lane or if we're out in left field. But it is not my prerogative to be creating really strict um really like boxedin goals for us to accomplish in the coming year. This is the most conversation we've ever had about goals with the exception of maybe last year. Like on this body, the first couple years on this body, we talked about goals for I don't know, maybe 30 minutes, Brian, and we moved on. They are supposed to be guiding points that are like the light in the distance. We can just know we're going in the same direction. They are not supposed to be prescriptive for staff. That is the city manager's responsibility. They are not supposed to be prescriptive for us because we still have to prepare for things coming from the public, text amendments, development projects, PUDs. And I don't feel like we should prescribe because I'm kind of in support of Brian every single meeting every two weeks for every 12 months this year. I want a guide. I want to know roughly where we're going, but like next month you can tell me we're on the ship for repairarian buffer. Next month after that, maybe you can tell me we're on the ship for a rewrite of a different section.

That's my stance on goals. I I have been in enough different careers where I think they are it all depends on the person that is managing those goals of another person and how they feel about goals. So I think these look great. I don't mind ha adding housing somewhere in there although I feel like they are addressed in some of these sub items. Um that's my stance. Shay.

Um I tend to agree like if you get too prescriptive, you're basically doing the job that the goal is putting you that that the goal is guiding you towards, right? Like um and the housing thing, housing is always in the back of my mind, plain and simple. And I think housing relates to every one of these goals. Um, I I mean I get that like if you put it on there, it's that guiding light, but I personally think that every one of us is thinking about housing all the time and it relates to all of these goals already. So, I don't know how I feel about I don't think it's necessary personally. Yeah. Brian,

uh, this is my suggestion. Um because one of my goals is to be more efficient with our time. So write up your ideas, submit them to staff, they can provide them at a meeting and we can vote them up or down.

Simple. Then we can go I'll tell you right now, no, not quarterly reports on our goals. I'm more along with Shay and Anna. I mean, if we could, you know, you want to be accountable for our goals, well then make one. Okay, our goal for this year will be the riparian buffer ordinance and that'll be it. And then we can meet that goal because that's a meetable goal. If we were masters of our own time, that'd be great. But people keep bringing other things to us. Okay? They want to build things. They want the city wants to fix roads and bridges. All that stuff eats up a ton of our time,

you know. And if we want to, you know, if you want to get all the stuff done, then put everybody in a room for three weeks um and you can work 12-hour days and we'll get everything on the list. We'll solve all the world's problems or we'll kill ourselves. Probably the last or both. But the quick way to do this is let's just put it in writing, submit it at a future meeting, and we can vote it up or down. Yeah. So, are you February 3rd sounds like a good day for that? Yeah. Are you sure that are are you suggesting we don't vote on these tonight then? I'm suggesting we don't vote on these tonight. I don't have anything in writing in front of me. I just have some comments and some statements. Okay.

There's no I mean, it was what I was told was, you know, these are the goals. Do you like them or not? Do you want to add things? I've heard all sorts of suggestion, but nothing really fleshed out in a motion other than yours, which was kind of questionable as a goal. Just a clarification. It's a clarity thing. It's not. Yes. But, you know, I don't I don't see anything. No one's giving me anything in writing. Um, you know, or that's, you know, simple. Do we need to add housing? And you all, you know, the housing, there's nothing new there. It's just you want something on there because it looks good. It reminds you, it just shows, well, this is always one of our goals, right? Goal. That's more of a

that's important. That's important for the public who looks at our goals is that there's some mention of housing to know that it's important to us. And to be fair, a lot of in previous years, we we said there were too many things on here to achieve. And so I think staff did a really good job of trying to shorten it because a lot of these things that are on here we have talked about and have been mentioned and so you've been keep obviously been keeping a list and so you know they're on here and the only thing for me about the goals is staff does need some direction right of of what to do and and so that's why it's here but they're very open-ended you know and that and as they should be I don't think they're overly prescriptive they're open No.

So, and just to be clear, we don't need to move. No. For these goals. They just exist in the background. So, we don't have to approve them. No. And obviously, they'll come back because we are noodling over them. There's been a lot of discussion. People might have different ideas after this discussion, but like we don't have to adopt. We don't have to move. We don't have to like those are just a guiding correct. Yeah. Which is feedback to staff. Yeah. No, that's one thing. So, you know, so give them some feedback in writing and let them put it to make their job easier. We'll get a memo. Get a memo and for the February third meeting.

Yeah. Vote on it then.

Um I say we'll probably go ahead and put this on the next study session meeting just as a placeholder in case the conversation wants to continue. There doesn't have to be an expectation that it goes into depth at that meeting. But if any of you are like me, as soon as you walk out of this meeting, that's when your ideas are probably going to come to you. So, we want to hold that space that you have that opportunity. Um, two quick things on that. This year is a little unique in the discussion on what goals you want to achieve because the rewriting of the zoning ordinance provides a lot of opportunity to explore and incorporate and there's probably going to be things that you're not even thinking about now until you roll up your sleeves and get into it. Okay. Um, the last thing I'll say is as you guys were talking on the topic of the development dashboard. I I emailed you all two links from the um, city of Columbus, Ohio, they have a great little system there. I've shared it with our IT director um because we we need some um, I don't know technical advice on how to even pull that off because it's way above my understanding. Okay. Okay. Great. Seeing nothing else from the group, I think I'm going to move for or open public comment on this agenda item C, which is our goals, planning commission goals. Seeing none, oh,

careful. I'm not going to repeat my instructions. You remember them.

That's fine. Uh Paul Wilkins, 610 North Madison. Um, again, I'm I'm perplexed coming from a a business background where we run fiscally responsible and my expectation is the city does too. I I like to always make sure that everyone in the organization is pulling in the same direction and that's kind of why you do have goals. And I would think that this whole discussion about well we really don't need them or we're going to just throw housing out there because we got to make it look good to the public. That's that's scary guys. um all the more reason why every one of the initiatives that this board looks at should align with one of the six pillars in the strategic plan for the city. Is it moving in the direction that the strategic plan wants it to go? And I understand there's a difference between the master plan and the strategic plan. But to know that you guys are just going off rogue is that's concerning to me. It really is. Now, I did go through the city academy. It was a great foundation. There's a ton of stuff for me to learn and I need to make a transition from my business background and again I w work for a multinational corporation to come back into the city and go how is this working because it's just doesn't seem to be as efficient as it could be. Um so guys just think about that and why wouldn't you want to have some main direction on where you want to go? Um, when I was looking at your goals, the first thing I did is what happened in 2025? What were the goals and how did they do? And oh, by the way, I think it was um Jerry, you mentioned, did did we get the short-term rental thing done? And I kind of scratched my head and said I keep a pulse on it, but I didn't know either. That would be a great place to go because guys, feel good about yourself.

Pat yourself on the back and say, "Dang it, we we we knocked that one through. We knocked that one through. We didn't get to that one, but we really needed more resources. And that's where you corral the resources to get you over the hurdle if you happen to be stumped on one. It seems like this repairarian rights might be a a stumper to get yourself over. So anyway, I thank you for the time and I do thank you for each taking the time to serve on the board. It's appreciated.

Thank you. Any other public comment? Seeing none, I'll close public comment. Okay, back to the group on goals. Okay, we're ready for us to send additional notes to staff and then we'll get some memos on the third. Sounds good to me. Okay, moving onward. We're going to move to reports. Update from the city commission.

Well, uh, yesterday Yes, we didn't swear in since that was last time, but we have a new city manager and Ben Marintet and we uh swore in Sarah Lutz as the city clerk and Rebecca Adler as the deputy city clerk. Uh we did have the city commission hearing on the easement for the Marriott hotel from the planning commission meeting in November and I'm pleased to report that the aspects of liability and maintenance that we had brought up are incorporated into that easement language. So, uh, the city is not on the hook for, um, maintaining it or, um, if anything goes wrong. We continue to own it, but, uh, it is not an undue cost to the city and it is aligning with our plans as we've already discussed. Also, we had uh, quite a bit of discussion about um, properties on State Street. the proposal from a developer, John Socks, uh to put in a parking deck at uh State and Pine. um currently is city-owned and uh we are I guess intrigued by the possibility of that, but we went out for RFQ request for qualifications to get um a sense for both how this plan could actually work and what uh other plans could be brought to the table. Uh we had discussions about the future of the Beiju and Carnegie buildings uh which were going out for RFPs on that uh for future lease or other agreements for how those uh will get used. They're

also city-owned properties that have seen uh public facing uses. But uh what that use looks like in the future and how it contributes to the vibrancy of our downtown and Trevor city as a whole, we'll have to see. Anything to add, Jackie?

Just to um expand upon those things. Uh one of the motivators for both the request for proposal and the request for qualifications process is to encourage public input and comment. provide multiple opportunities for that. So we are anxious to hear from those in the community who will be bene beneficiaries and and uh we want to want to know their perspectives. Planning department update?

Not a whole lot. Um we do want to let you know that registration will open this month for the national planning conference in Detroit. It's kind of a unique opportunity. It's never been held in Michigan. Um if you are able to make it, we have um incorporated that into this year's budget. Uh it will be April 25th through the 28th. So the city um covers for the planning commission their registration and travel and accommodations while they're down there. Um the national conference, I've been to it twice and if you find value in the state conference, the national conference is just over the top. I mean it is about 5 to 7 thousand people over the course of the four days and every topic across the country you could possibly learn many of which won't be relevant to us such as you know hurricane mitigation in the Gulf you know but those are the type of things that are talked about there and you can glean things from it but usually there's about

five to 10 sessions going on concurrently at any time so you can constantly pick ones that are of your interest but that's our um primary um announcement that I have today unless you guys had more Oh yeah we do have those office hours listed. Our next one is coming up here this month. That is going to be on Wednesday, January 14th, 6 o'clock at um Tank Space on East 8 Street. Can we explain a little what that is? That they you know there's uh planning commissioners and staff who are there. They'll be there.

I'm going to be there. They will answer questions that the public may have and it's a part of our communications goal to have these office hours. Um and obviously we will be meeting in two weeks. That is only the only other update I think that we discussed would be in there. Yes, we do have that meeting on the 20th. Uh it might be the 21st Wednesday that Jackie then Mitch. Um if I could ask, can we get a report on how many how many members of the public are attending office hours? Um, so the last one we had in December, there was nobody. It was very big snowtorm. It was a snowstorm

and it was the middle of the day. So that's fair. The one before that I did not attend. Brian attended and there were two people. Thank you. I did have an email from someone that we met with last month who expressed interest in coming in January. Um, I don't know, but then she met with us, so I don't know if she's still planning to come, but that's the only person that has explicitly reached out about it to us. So I think a a little bit more time getting people used to it and it was called out in the recent TER article. So yeah. Okay. A question I have for staff I didn't see a memo or minutes about this but is there an update from uh November's local officers compensation commission meeting?

The only thing that would have cons potentially discussed uh compensation for planning commissioners. Did they have that discussion in November? Yes, they did. I have not heard. Um, the last I heard last month is that the discussion was forthcoming. So, if it had happened already, maybe they had some discussion and we'll have more discussion later and and I don't think they meet very often. Correct. Yeah. So, no, every other every two years. Every two years. Yeah. Yeah. So, I know the city manager has made that request of that, but I've not heard any followup.

Yes, Jackie. And uh just a PSA that uh the Grand Traverse County Housing Growth Corridor Strategy Meeting is coming up on uh January the 12th, 3 to 4:30 p.m. at the Traverse City Curling Club. I don't know if you have any any more information. Are they meeting on the ice? Is there a room there? Well, Jerry and I are on a league at the Curling Club, so we're quite familiar with it. Yes, there is a what's called the warm room. It's got a bunch of tables and um accommodations for serving. They got a kitchen in there and stuff. It's a really nice actually Brian Brian came and did a podcast on the curling club.

He really wanted to join our league this year, but we were full. Sorry, bud. Um okay. Any joint planning commission update? No, we meet in a couple weeks.

No. Yeah. Uh January 28th, I believe it is. Um that one got moved a week because of the MLK holiday the week before. There is a scheduled public hearing that night regarding um the development envelope and the shed. Yeah, it basically will allow it will address the need for a couple additional sheds at the community garden because there's three different nonprofits operating there. They all have their own tools and things like that. Um they have um essentially wrapped up their review of their master plans. We'll beginning begin the conversation of um possibly updating it. uh the conversations we've had with them through the review process. A lot of the updates are focused on reflecting what has happened since the last master plan. So, a lot of the data is outdated now. Um it's kind of a unique area in that um the focus in the master plan is pretty much preservation. You know, it's to preserve it as is rather than change a whole lot. So I don't anticipate a any kind of massive update just given the nature of the property and the constraints of the different conservation easements and historic ements and things like that.

Board of zoning appeals update haven't met all of last year and our meeting for next week is already cancelled. Right. Repairarian buffer update.

Uh so I got today a uh map from the GIS department. Thank you very much. So, it shows um it would allow you to zoom in on any property and see where the proposed buffer would be and you can look and see what structures might be impacted and what properties. Um so, it's a helpful way to do um kind of truthing ground truthing of the ordinance to see if it makes sense. So, a draft has been um put together and I'm expecting that it will be on your next agenda at the um study session. Uh just to get again a gut check from the planning commission if we're on the right track. The committee asked to um have their uh last changes brought back to them again. So, we'll go back to them after we hear from you. And then um you know we'll go through the whole process of adoption and review by the design team and other internal reviews and along with um I'm hoping a a lot of opportunity for public input because it will impact a lot of people and we want to make sure we're getting it right. So thank you. Grand Traverse County update. Um just two items and thank you uh to Commissioner Anderson uh bringing up first thing I wanted to talk about which is our uh zoning atlas discussion at the curling club next Monday. Um, at that meeting, uh, Housing North and their consultant, Flywheel, will be talking about, uh, the growth corridor mapping project that we've been doing, um, as well as showing some modeling on

some different sites that we've chosen to to showcase, um, higher density and and affordable housing options for our community. The uh other uh update that I have for you is that uh the the county in our 2026 budget has uh allocated funding for um a community development or community coordination um department or um office. And so we are going through the the process of understanding what that is going to look like. Obviously the county um wants to play a role in uh regional coordination. and it's aligned with our strategic goals. And um we're going to be looking at putting an RFP out uh for uh consultant to help us um kind of determine what a community coordination uh office would look like. Uh what sort of staff we would be uh looking to bring on board. and um just overall identifying, you know, what our what our highest priorities would be um in the next one to three years as as we look to build that out. So, uh more information on that definitely coming. Uh but I think that's that's something big and and exciting that that we're doing at the county. So, looking forward to sharing updates with you throughout the year.

Thank you. Um, so this item, do we just receive and file the Garfield Township master plan amendment request for comments 2025? Yeah. And I had sent that out to you guys before, but I just knew that we weren't going to be meeting until um today and I think they asked for feedback by like next week or something. So if anyone felt compelled or as a you know commission felt compelled, I mean I hope that someone would have Mhm.

um emailed me and we could have talked about it or something, but um yeah. Uh yeah. Okay, we're moving on to public comment. This is the general public comment. So, I'm going to open public comment. Um again, please state your name, address, city resident. Sure. And two to three three minutes.

Fred Bimber, 1223 Randolph Street, city resident. I'll be brief. I have two proposals for your consideration and possible further action. Each of these relates to transparency, openness, and communication with the public. The first is it appears from what I've heard tonight that the planning director sends a memo to planning commission members outlining for the next couple of months when the meetings will be and the topics that you're expected to talk about. That's the first I've heard of such a thing. If such a memo exists, post it along with the meeting materials on your website. It would be a convenient way of giving the public also a heads up about when meetings will occur and the likely topics. Good way of communicating with the public. It's cheap and simple. Secondly, al and somewhat related with respect to your meetings, people can show up and speak or people can submit an email or some letter or some other type of written comment. I would suggest that you take whatever steps are necessary so that if you go through the city's website to meeting materials and you see things about the planning commission, you have the option to get not just the agenda and the agenda packet, but also public comment there. simply post as received on a rolling basis the public comment that you've received about the topics for that meeting. That would be a good way of letting the general public know what do other members of the public think about this? What have they said about it? Right now, if you submit public comment by writing to the planning commission, it's like it goes into a black hole. Unless a particular commission member responds to you, you

have no idea that they received it, that they're considering it, or what they've heard about it. I think you should adopt this other method of putting it there. It's more open to the public. It allows people that are making these comments to understand that yes, it's out there and my neighbors will see it as well. And it also incentivizes what you should try to incentivize for public comment on meetings like this. Almost all of us are going to make better, more organized, more complete, but more succinct comments when we put them in writing, and you have the opportunity to receive them and consider them in advance of the meeting. Let's try to incentivize written comment by truly making it public. Thank you.

Thank you.

Doug Kimble, 523 North Spruce Street, Traverse City Resident. Uh I wanted to speak about uh zoning and relation to master plan. Uh but first, uh January 22nd, 2024 governance session. Cadet Janick said in effect the the city departments are in place to serve the residents of Traverse City to improve the lives of the residents of Traverse City, but I don't see that happening here. I see that you're working for the interests of developers and for people who don't live here but want to live here. In your marketing of this master plan to us, you continuously uh dismissed the impact of your master plan as merely a suggestion, just a guiding document. However, every time there's a development to be considered, you cite and refer to the master plan. In fact, the May 6, 2025 agenda packet for the meeting uh referenced the master plan 29 times. Um so we expressed over and over that we don't want commercialization of Bay Street. We don't want multifamily development on Bay Street. We want to preserve Slab Town as it is. So check out the listening session results and you'll see what we wanted. But instead what we got is well perhaps uh you know we could put some driveby businesses in there such as a dry cleaners. Well, you thought a dry cleaner would be a good

place that would be a good place to put a dry cleaner across from uh Grand Travers Bay. So, um really uh are you getting a lot of requests for dry cleaners in established neighborhoods? It shows exactly how far removed you are from the expressed wishes of a long established neighborhood. You said the neighborhood preservation was top of the list when developing the master plan. So apparently you're going to preserve Bay Street by changing it. You know what? What are you saying to us? You you want to preserve neighborhood top of the list, but you're going to change our neighborhood. I don't get it. You didn't you didn't have to include this in master plan, but you did because you want it to be commercial and multifamily. You can amend this. You can amend this plan. And that is what we want for Bay Street to be R1B only, not transitional.

So there you have one perspective from the peanut gallery.

Thank you. Right. Third times a charm. Paul Wilkins, 610 North Madison Street. Um, planning assistant Miller did a great job taking me through the city academy and I I I did I really listened and I tried to learn as best I can. um chairperson uh Dmitri uh was uh talking about puds and that's something I really don't understand. So, this public comment, I'm kind of hoping that we get that verbal interaction because um when we talk about puds, and I I kind of tried to follow the one that that was at recently at the church, but then I looked back at the one that was at TC Milworks over on uh on Whitmer. Um was or Woodmir. Uh when I looked that up, I couldn't find a lot of records on the pud. And I I am on the on the zoning appeals board, but we never met. Um, but apparently city staff uh approved setback variances, building square footage uh on the lot size, zoning variances, but was there public input involved? Were those meetings public when city staff met with the TC Milworks to negotiate this? And by the way, I do like that development. I think it's awesome. But I just question, and I'm still learning, I question the process. How does that work? Can I attend a pud as a public person and and kind of just listen in on those negotiations? So again, this is that verbal interaction. As I go to sit down, maybe you can tell me who I can talk to so I can better understand that process. All right. Again, all about transparency. Can I look it up to see who was involved in

those? Because that's kind of cool. I think so. Thank you.

Um, so a PUD is a planned unit development. It's a zoning tool which allows flexible, innovative design for mixeduse projects, including any and all residential, commercial, open space on large sites, typically three plus acres, that deviate from traditional zoning, encouraging clustering, preserving features, and integrating infrastructure, requiring planning commission and city commission review. um they and serve as an alternative to a slop, I'm pretty sure, but I could be incorrect, or just standard development of the site. Um those don't get approved by staff. They go through the typical process of planning, review, and city implementation. Um am I missing anything else? All of those anytime they come before the planning commission, those are public hearings. There's public hearings involved and those would be also put through public hearings at the city level before implementation. Um, so there's at least like two meetings at each of those bodies that are public and accessible to the public and live online in perpetuity in recordings. Am I missing anything else? Um,

no. No, the way it typically works if someone's uh we'll use the mill works as an example because that's a fresh one. They actually came um three or four times to the planning commission in public meetings plus two or three times at the city commission. The first was when they presented their concept and it was like pre

pre Yeah. Well, because they wanted permission to apply on a property less than three acres. And so they provided their concept and in there they were outlining what deviations they would need, why they would want the PUD because of the uniqueness of the site. Um, and then once they were approved, then they finalized their application and stuff. So yeah, those were all presented as what they needed to planning commission. The planning commission made a recommendation to the city commission. We as staff aren't we we don't have any authority to approve those or anything like that. They present it to us as when they submit their application, then we package it up and pro provide it to the planning commission. And essentially a PUD creates a lot specific zoning ordinance for a unique development or something,

an agreement between Yes. Yes. And there's there's usually tradeoffs. Um, sometimes you will see them present a public benefit uh in a almost like a quid proquo for for what they're asking for. And in this case, they were going to provide the um they're going to build that trail down to the Borman Lake Loop and stuff like that on their dime. So, which was something that our plan had called for,

but going forward as part of a rewrite, I would like that much more just in plain language. Right now, it's not at all. And I think it gets really chaotic when a member of the public is just trying to read through our ordinances or search for it and try to get a definition. Um, because it's mentioned in so many areas that you're just Yeah. Um, okay. Any other public comment? Okay, closing public comment. Um, thank you for being here and this meeting's adjourned unless we have any other comments. Great. Thank you.

Congrats. I It's going to be hard for me. I have to pee, y'all. I drink a lot of