Government Performance and Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

Alright.

I'd like to call order the government performance and finance committee meeting at

12/02/2025.

Clerk, please call the roll.

Vice chair Hochul? Present. Deputy Mayor Daniels? Absent. Council member Rumba? Here. And chair Hines?

Here. Alright.

The lights are on at all.

Think the mics are working.

Those are the old lights, I think.

Oh, they're that just means lights.

Alright. There we go. Okay.

Moving on to public comment. Sir, can you please read?

To request to speak during public comment for items on the agenda, please set up an affirmative if you have not done so already. If you are speaking virtually, please press please press the rate scan button near the bottom of your Zoom window or 9904. Your name or your last four of your social phone number will be called out.

Clerk, is anyone time to speak virtually or in person?

There is nobody online or in the.

Okay. Let's say clerks have not been informed of the survey.

No. Very confusing there.

No. Alright. So with that, we're going to close public comment, and we will move on to our one and only briefing item. Yes. Which is, municipal judge court judge interviews. Thank

you, chair Heinz, and good morning, council members. My name is Nicole, and today, you'll be interviewing four candidates to fill an upcoming vacancy for minutes before 2022. George Henke judge Henke announced her retirement from the court, and her last day will be December 31 of this year. At the council meeting of November 18, the council adopted a motion to begin the recruitment process that included creating an application and accepting applications yesterday morning. After interviews are completed today, the committee will recommend two to three individuals to their orders for consideration, and that's prior to it coming to the city council at.

For the four interviews you have today, the applicants were provided two questions in advance, and they'll have ten minutes to answer those questions. The questions were, tell us why you received this position. What about your experience makes you the best candidate for the position, and how do you describe your judicial temperament? After the conclusion of their presentation, you'll have about ten minutes to ask any follow-up questions and then make motions or. Or. Happy to answer any questions.

Alright. Councilor Montbaugh.

Oh, yeah. Thank you, chair. I just remember there was one we had talked about are we still bringing two names for it, or are we is it possible just to bring one name forward? The motion that was adopted was for two to three names, but I think can you repeat? Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah. Motion.

We've entertained some motions. Okay.

So with that, to my committee members, I see Debbie Mayer

is joined from the live. She is here. If your record reflects that.

The outputs were sent two questions ahead of

time, which are listed on

the sheet and paper in

front of you. They have ten minutes to answer those two questions, and then we have some suggested follow-up questions that I would say to the council members or committee members, feel free to

ask what questions you'd like.

We're gonna have ten minutes before interviews. My plan would be to return to executive session just to discuss the

applicant's interview process, and then come back out and have a discussion about the applicants and making emotions. So with that, I guess we will come in our first topic. We're gonna start online or in person.

Last night.

Hello. Hello. Good morning.

Good morning. See you too.

Thanks for being here. Welcome. Alright.

Well, mister Flores, so we have same question at a time. You have ten minutes or as much as you'd like to answer those two questions, and then we will have about ten minutes for community response and follow-up questions. And then once

we get through that, you have

any questions for us or anything. Sounds great. Thank you. I would be dishonest if I if I didn't say that I am a little emotional and nervous. I've been thinking of this moment for a very long time.

I've been wanting to be a Tacoma municipal court judge for a while. And the reason that I wanna be a Tacoma municipal court judge is because I've seen firsthand the the positive impact that Tacoma Muni can have in our community, not only through accountability and administering justice, but also in being a partner to all of the issues that or challenges that we see in our city regarding to homelessness and drug addiction. And that's why I wanna be a judge in

to call me this important.

I have the right experience, the right demeanor, and also a clear vision as to what Tacoma municipal court can be in its potential. I wanna start by talking about my experience. And to do that, I wanna start by telling you about my story. I was born in Mexico, and I immigrated with my family when I was

10 years old to Woodinville, Washington.

My parents came here with no money.

My dad had asked me. I got my job in a Mexican restaurant called as a

as a cook, cook, and my dad was the only one working. And I think we had $200. Luckily, there there's good people in this world. And one of his coworkers took us in his apartment, a two bedroom apartment with his family. And we're able to stay there for a couple of months until we can afford to rent our own apartment.

So growing up, I saw firsthand the struggles of growing up as a poor immigrant family, and all those challenges. By the time I graduated high school, I didn't really know how I wanted to continue with my life, but I knew I wanted to do something with my life. And I was very good at photography, and it was photography that led me to Seattle Central Community College. I wanted to get a technical degree in commercial photography, which I did. But once I got to Seattle Central Community College, that was the first time that I felt empowered by the people around me because those people, those students that were going to Seattle Central were a lot like me.

They were there because they were working hard to get somewhere. I was working a full time job in a carpet warehouse and going to school at the same time. And it was that experience of being surrounded by people who were passionate and working hard for their goals, and they they looked like me. And I feel very empowered, and I decided to be part of student government. So I got involved with the student body government.

I became the the student body president, of Centro in my my last year there. And it was that experience of government that led me to go to Seattle University and get a degree in government in political science. After graduating from political science, I worked in government for about five years. So with elected officials, worked for Dow Constantine when he was a council member, and then I worked for senator Patty Murray. That work was very meaningful, and I learned a lot about coalition building and about going to our communities and learning what are are the policy priorities and funding priorities of our communities in order for my in my role as a staffer to advocate for for those priorities and communicate that to, the elected official.

After that, I went to law school. And after law school well, I went, to law school in Chicago, but I wanted to come back to, Puget Sound because it's what I call home. However, I grew up in North Seattle and Seattle. And when I was coming back, it didn't feel like the place that I had left, but Tacoma did. And so my husband and I decided to move to Tacoma. And ten years ago, Andy here hired me to work for just develop and create our enforcement mechanism for the employment standards that the city

had just created the year before.

And I was working along Melanie Harding was my supervisor and created the the the enforcement agency, I guess, to adjudicate all of the complaints when it comes to the minimum wage, And I think that's when I met new council member.

And at

that time, I was staying for the bar. And when I passed the bar, it was Andy, actually. In fact, the major reason as to why I'm here is because Andy saw potential in meeting and talked to Bill Fostry at the time and said, hey. I have I have an employee who just passed the bar. I think you probably need him. And so he asked me to help with prosecution, and then I started helping there while I was working here. And then eventually, was hired to be a prosecutor. Never wanted to be a prosecutor before, but I took the opportunity, and I fell in love with being a prosecutor. For the first time, I was in a role where I could really make a difference and

make an impact in my community.

Building community has always been a very important thing to me. Everywhere I've been, everything I've done, I always look for ways to improve systems and make you more efficient and more equitable because I feel that's a responsibility I have just based on my upbringing. I saw the difficulties and challenges other people have. And so I'm I'm always making it my my mission to improve programs. And so that's what I did when I was a prosecutor.

I identified that our current system in municipal court and in course of the jurisdictions which is not working right. We kept seeing the same thing again. We kept seeing individuals being arrested for doing the same behavior, plagued guilty, maybe held for five, ten, thirty days, released with no services, and then we signed them again a week later. Just this revolving door. And I thought this is not right.

This is not justice for anyone. And I made it a point to try and find ways to to improve that system, and that's when I started getting involved with therapeutic courts and and other diversion programs that we can use. The difference between Tacoma and and district court Tacoma's court and district court and superior court, not any other court, is that unlike any other court, Tacoma Municipal Court and Pierce County District Court, their courts have limited jurisdictions, which require them to be a court of rehabilitation. That's why they were created. They were not created to be trial courts, although we have trials.

They were not created to appellate court because we don't have a. They were created to be course of rehabilitation. That is the mandate of of those courts. But we were not operating with that spirit, and so I made it my mission to try and change that. At the time, I had the opportunity to work in a community court in opera, and so I got a job there in 2021.

And I and I changed jobs so that I could learn about establishing a community court, how to do that, learn best practices, learn evidence based models. Because I knew that these things needed to be done right in order to work. And that's the thing about therapeutic ones. They have to be done right to work. They need to follow best practices and evidence based model because the goal in therapeutic course is for them to be a well balanced both accountability and compassion. Without one of those two, it doesn't work.

If you're not holding people accountable,

you're not also being a god calling. Having compassion, it doesn't work, and I've seen it. And there's a lot of data on that as to why it works. I'm happy to explain

it another time because I don't have no confidence.

That's why I ran for Tacoma Municipal Court three years ago in 2022 because I wanted Tacoma to have a community court in general, just be a more therapeutic and rehabilitated court. At the time, judge Henke was the only judge working on therapeutic approach. She had a mental health calendar with address which used a therapeutic model to address cases with people who were dealing with. But I wanted Tacoma to do more, and so I ran at that time because I wanted us

to have a therapeutic approach.

My commitment to Tacoma municipal court has not diminished after I did not win my election. In fact, the opposite, I doubled down. And that's just who I am. When I want something because I truly believe I can make an impact, I work harder to to convince others that I that I I'm doing it for the right reasons. And I think when I first ran for to come, a lot of people didn't know me, especially in the judicial branch.

And

so I needed to work hard and get more experience in order for for them to support my mission. And that's what I did. I started protesting in the court as a judge. I started protesting in district court as a judge and building relationships with the other judges so they learned who I was and what I was about so that I could help them get to where they wanted to be. Even if I was an elected official, elected judge, I could still help as a pro tem.

That's what I did. I helped in municipal court. I helped judge Santay and judge Krupa and judge Henke with therapeutic pro programs that they have established in in covering court whenever they needed me to cover courts. That is the direct experience that I have with this court. I believe that I am the only candidate that has that right now who has that direct experience with the course of limited jurisdiction, with therapeutic course, and with the communist court.

If I were to get this position, I could go in there tomorrow, and I already have a login. I already know the staff. I already know the judges. I can sit on the bench and do any calendar because I've done every single calendar that we hear in the court. I've done trials in the court as a prosecutor and now as a as a judge.

And so that's the experience that I have. When it comes to to the to the inside, I think my my experience as an as an immigrant, my experience as as a gay man has given me the opportunity to see the challenges that a lot of underserved communities experience with accessing our courts, especially these types of court. There's nothing more powerful to me, and I get chills thinking about it. When I'm sitting as a judge here in the communist court and I see an an immigrant who's who doesn't speak English and and has an interpreter, when they walk into the court, especially right now, they're tense. They know that any conviction, whether they are lawfully in this country or unlawfully, that any convictions can have serious consequences, not only in their immigration status, but in their family.

And so when they walk into the courtroom, I see their backs, their tents, their neck. They they're fearful. But as soon as they see my name and as soon as I say something as simple as, that changes. You can see it on their face. You can see it on their body.

Because they know that although I'm gonna be a judge and I'm going to be fair and I'm not gonna be biased and I have a lot to upheld, they know that I get that I get where they're coming from, and that makes a huge difference. I'm a big proponent of procedural justice. This is an approach that a lot of new judges are starting to follow. It is very obvious, which is, you know, I think we have a vision of what justice should be. I think TV does that for us.

We're like, justice is done when the defendant gets convicted. Right? But that's not justice. When you work in this environment, sometimes a defendant gets convicted, it doesn't feel just. You feel justice sometimes when you were able to provide through the whole process of our criminal system

fairness in the process.

What I mean with that is even before someone gets into the courtroom, when we send a notice, is that notice is that notice like, can people read this notice? Can people understand it? Can people know what how to contact our court? When people contact our court, is our staff going to be professional and friendly to be able to to to create more access to our court? When someone walks into our courtroom, are the judges saying good morning, welcome, thank you for being here, instead of saying, you're late. Take off

your hat, which it happens, unfortunately.

It's that type of approach of of procedural justice that makes a huge difference in people feeling just, both the victims, both the community, and the defendant. If you explain a ruling in why you're deciding a certain way and that your decision is not based on your own personal bias or or or an arbitrary decision, a defendant, even if you rule against what they want, if you explain it well, that person's going to feel like justice was done. And that's the type of judge that

I want to be. That's the type of judge that I

I I I try to be when I am protecting, and I know that that's the type

of judge that to call us.

Alright. We I didn't wanna stop you. I'm sorry. So no. No problem. So we're gonna set the time for seven. It's for

our conversation. It's over. And I'll start council Rommel for questions.

Thank you so much for being here, Sergio. I really appreciate you applying for this. I just first off, I just wanna say that I read through all of these packets from people. And judge Henke just really gave you a lot of credit for Auburn's therapeutic court that they set up. It just taught I mean, it was just such a glowing letter.

Also, just your personal stories. Just every time I read it, I wanna cry. But if you could talk, I really I know you know this about me, but I'm very interested in what therapeutic and community court look like and how we better use those in our community. And I would love to hear from you how you think we could be doing more with community court. And then if you could talk a little bit about court support services and what that means to you. I know that I've met with judge Hank. I guess I have to call him. Well, he's not really what is he called now? Krupa.

Co chair.

He's, like, the co chair

of the

Co chair of the the communist Yeah. Department.

So I'll

just gonna call him judge Krupa. But, anyways, I've met with him to talk about court support services, and I so if you could just kinda answer that that holistic Yeah. Question, that would be great.

So I'll start with with the beginning of that question. There's so much we can

be doing. It's a common municipal court from a

therapeutic perspective, and I think every judge right now sitting in that court will agree. One of the things that I would like to start is something that I started doing in Auburn two years ago that, to me, was has been the most powerful thing in therapeutic core practices, which is an in custody community core program. So when I started community core in Auburn, right away, I told him, I said, you know, the the out of custody defendants, the ones who are not in custody, it's gonna help them a lot. But if we wanna truly make a big impact, we have to talk about the repeat offenders, the people who are gonna be put in jail pretrial because because they just keep coming back and have too

much history to release it.

That's how so at first, I wasn't they they were not buying it. But then eventually, once they approved the community court work, they said, okay. Go ahead. Do a a pilot program. So then what we did is we identified repeat offenders who were picking up new charges. They were being held in jail. While they were in jail, we would make them an offer. We would say, do you wanna participate in in community court while you're in custody? And this is how it's gonna work. So how it worked was if they said yes, they would meet with a agency in jail.

They would do a substance use disorder evaluation, which most of them had a a substance use disorder. And then right away, we got them off bed with an inpatient agency. ABHS has allowed them to run this thing. We just got them offed within three days three to four days. Right?

So when you tell someone, you can be here for thirty, sixty days waiting trial or or you can engage in this process, be released to inpatient treatment. And while you're in inpatient treatment getting these your treatment for thirty days, at the same time, our caseworker and our and our community coordinator are gonna be working with you and other agencies outside of Tacoma or in the area to find you clean and sober housing, to find you an agency that can do your outpatient treatment, and all the things that are that is keeping you from being successful in this recovery. So when they left so at every single step, there was safeguards to make sure that they were in it. Like, we would have the agency pick them up from jail, take them directly to to inpatient treatment. We would have a a peer navigator pick them up from inpatient treatment, taking directly to the clean and sober housing.

And so we created this system with outside agencies and to to partner so that so that we were getting these individuals with really high needs the services that they need so that we wouldn't see them again because, one, it's not good for them. Two, it's not good for the community. Right? It was not good for our business local businesses. Their windows are being broken when they're having a mental health issue or a drug issue.

They're not it's just not good for anyone. There's there's also a lot of money that the city spends on jail and and and court time where it shouldn't be that way. But this worked. We had a success rate in the limited time, which is about two years that we had the program that we had the program, it worked. We had a success rate of seventy percent. So the let's say that a 100 people, it wasn't that much, but a 100 of those repeat offenders, seventy percent did not had not picked up new charges, which is huge because we look at the national rate as the opposite. Right? Partnering with partnering with with the social services. That's that's the key.

Thank you.

Hi, chair. You, chair, and thank you so much for your willingness to apply for this position. It's very clear to me that you care very much for this community. You like you mentioned, you've been embedded here for many years and involved in so many things. But I do really appreciate your your application here. I think your experience with therapeutic courts, and I really love hearing about the experience you're having at Auburn as well, as well as your experience as being a pro tem, bringing your lived experiences, your background, your history, for compassion, but then also for, equity and justice, think, is really,

really laudable. I think it's fantastic.

Do you have any do you have any what you feel is is a weakness from yourself that you're looking to shore up? And we had talked you had talked about identifying weaknesses before and how you double down and overcome it and, you know, prove it to the wider community, to colleagues in the judge space that you have the abilities. Is there any other weaknesses that you self identify that you're working on to try and improve as well?

Yeah. And I think that's you know, I would say that with any any judge, any attorney, we call it the the practice of law because you never you never stop learning. Even, you know, judges who've been on the bench for many, years will tell you the same thing. And I I want to make sure and be intentional to never lose sight of that because I think it's so important to be able to say, you know what, counsel? I'm not familiar with that issue.

I need to take ten minutes to see if I can if I can do some research before I make a ruling. I love when judges do that. I respect judges who do that so much because that shows that we all have weaknesses. We all have shortcomings. But but saying that in front of of in a court, it makes you a human to not just to the attorneys, but to the people who are there.

And that's how it should be. I've seen the opposite when judges make decisions because they don't want us to be seen like they don't know. And it's never a good thing. So, you know, I want to continue working on being a better a better judge, a better attorney, and and to be able to identify when I don't know something to ask for help and to learn.

Alright. Thank you so much.

Well, Sergio, thank you so much for your presentation. I have all the questions. I just have to ask the question as to you how many questions.

I I read the process that it was adopted, and it that was clear. The only thing I guess I'm still not clear is the committee will make a recommendation to the mayor of two or three individuals, and then the mayor will the mayor be doing additional interviews? No. She'll make a decision based on the recommendation.

Okay. So she may

I I would imagine that, basically, we recommend she, you know, just to finish up

with three or however or one person or four.

And you have a conversation at times.

But in the end, she makes the model.

Sounds good.

Thank you. Anything else?

Do you have a question?

No. I don't think so. Thank you so much for reapplying and for applying. And, you know, I just also as someone has has lost elections and not use that as

a way of attorney for coming back, I I have a lot of respect for you to come back and keep going on. I think that's really important. Thanks a lot, sir.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. You have a good rest of your day, Nicole will take our next person first. Just a moment. It's about twenty minutes. And what I'll do is I'll flag in ten minutes. Hey. We're in ten minutes. So you know, continue to comment on that. I just did not wanna cut off the his conversation.

No. I thought you I think I really appreciate how respectful you were. Yeah.

I thought he was doing a job. So I think we set the clock for twenty minutes. And at ten, I'll just kinda pause and say, you know, this is the end of ten minutes. You're free to continue, but, you know, it won't question time. So that's okay.

And, Deborah McDaniel, if you'd like to jump in, just go ahead and raise your hand, and we'll make sure

you get get a question for you.

Okay. I'm sorry. I had to click over, and I couldn't remember if you said I was first or last, but I feel like I missed my question. And I also didn't have one, so it it worked out.

Yep. You are I think there's customer, there's three questions. So, you know, feel free to if you wanna jump in with a question, just raise your hand. Otherwise I

don't I think I'm good. I'm I'm I I think I'm okay. Okay. But I will let you know.

Alright. Perfect.

Who else is in person?

We don't know who else. Who else is in person? Can we see once they walk in the door?

We will. Second. Think it's the second first.

I'll give you our first applicant.

Alright. Hello. Good morning. Hello. Neil. Neil. Okay. Okay. Alright. Let's see. Alright. Just gonna just sort through the package.

Good morning. Good morning, council members. Good. Alright. So I'm chair Heinz, and welcome to government forum's finance committee meeting. Take time out and chat with us. So the way we're gonna kinda forward is you reset some questions ahead of time to answer. You have up to ten minutes, and then after that, we have ten minutes for questions. There's a clock on the screen behind you. Oh, okay. For twenty. So, basically, in about ten minutes Oh. Oh, it's right there. At ten minutes, I'll just kind of interject. Say, hey. That's end of ten minute period. You can feel free to continue if you're in an answer or Okay. Point, and then we have the remaining time for the council members to ask questions. Great. And then if you have any questions at the end of the process, we're happy to

answer them. Okay. Yeah.

Great. So feel free to begin when you're ready.

Okay. Good morning. I'm Neil Haribe. It's a pleasure to be here this morning. I know that at the end of the year, all city government is probably working really hard. So thanks for taking the time to to meet with me. So I thought I would start by answering the basic question of why I decided to become a judge, and there are two basic reasons. The first is professional. So, at the risk of sounding like a nerd, I love the law. I like talking about the law.

I like reading about the law. I like practicing the law. I'm a true believer in the justice system that when it's working right, that it's the best one in the world. Okay? So why is that important?

Well, I think that there is at least a public perception that judges on the bench are making their decisions not based on the law, but based on something else. So if you were to appoint me, you could be confident that my decisions are gonna be based on the nerdy legal analysis of the law as it applies to the facts of each case. I want everybody that ends up in my courtroom to know that my decision was based on a careful and open minded legal analysis and not politics or prejudice or personal reasons. So the second thing that brought me to the bench is a much more personal thing. My grandparents on my father's side came to this country, as workers on the Dole Plantation Park in Hawaii.

They made it to California. And when they were in California, World War two happened. And they were taken from their homes, and they were interned in Arkansas because they were Japanese. So why is that important? Well, I think that we need to have judges on the bench that that are making their decisions based on what people have done and not who they are.

And it's important to me to make sure that people that need to be in front of a judge have the have the confidence and knowledge that that judge is looking at the actions they took and not just looking at who they are. In essence, I wanna be the judge that

my grandparents deserve to have, and they did.

Okay. So, why Tacoma Municipal Court? So, I spent many years as a prosecutor, some years as a reserve police officer. Okay? And so I know what it looks like when folks make it up to the superior court level, and they've made some decisions that you can't come back from.

I know every superior court judge would probably wish that they had been able to intercede earlier in somebody's life when they ended up, in most cases, in front of a municipal court or a district court. So I've been practicing as a pro tem in in district court, and I love it. And and that's one of the main reasons is I get a chance to intercede in folks' lives before they are that far down the path. It's a very rewarding experience to know that you're there to find this person at a time that you can help them and not crush them. K?

And so I really am excited about practicing at a court and the municipal or district court levels. So why would, my experience make me a good candidate for this position? So being a judge is hard. And like all hard jobs, it takes time to adjust to doing it right. And a lot of times, you make your mistakes early in the job.

So with me, I've been practicing as a judicial officer officer at at a a state agency since 2019. I can't say that I won't make any mistakes. No. Nobody could. But I can say that I'm less likely to make those beginner mistakes, because I've been working in a judicial role for over five years now.

I've also been a judge pro tem in Pierce County District Court, as I said, for a number of years. And I think that my my experience as a prosecutor will also lend itself well, in particular, to being a judge in a municipal court. I spent a lot of time working on domestic violence cases. In fact, I was probably gonna date myself, but I was one of the first prosecutors assigned to the Crystal Judson Family Justice Center when it opened. So domestic violence has always been something that was part of my practice.

Traffic, I actually when I left the prosecutor's office after working in many, many units, I was working at a felony traffic division. So I prosecuted traffic crimes, you know, from from the beginning of the the most the least serious all the way up to the most horrible, serious tragedies that you can imagine. And then lastly, I worked as I said a reserve police officer. Well, so you'll get the perhaps somewhat unique perspective of somebody that's actually enforced traffic laws on the street. So all those infractions, all those radar readings, I did that.

So, you know, I know have some experience about what it's supposed to look like when it's working right and what it's looking like when it's not working right. Okay. So oh, and then the last thing is, I I just like living in the city of Tacoma. I bought my first house here in 2007, and I've lived here ever since. And I have no intention of ever leaving. This is where my community is. This is the place where I practice, and this is the place where I live. So I wanna be a judge and contribute and give back to that

community that I've been living in.

So, basically, if I could sum all that up, if you were to appoint me to the bench, I would be able to hit the ground running. I know how to be a judge. I know how the databases work. I know how jabs and lakes and all those things that judges need to know how to do. I know how they all work. And I've been in front of a lot of judges, and I've seen things that judges do that are very effective. And I've seen things that judges do that are less effective. So twenty years of litigation or courtroom experience is what you're gonna get with me. So, judicial temperament. So this is a hard one.

I because you kinda have to think to yourself outside looking in. But I like to think that I'm calm, professional, respectful, and open minded. I think that more than any other court, the municipal courts and the district courts are kinda like the people's court. It's the courts where folks end up when they have their first brush with the justice. So all walks of life are gonna come in there.

And I wanna make sure that everyone feels if not comfortable, I don't know if anybody feels comfortable going into court for themselves, but safe. I want them to feel like, they're not being targeted because of who they are. They may be held accountable eventually for what they did, but they should feel safe showing up. And I'll do everything I can as a judge to make

sure my court gets that feeling off.

I also know that folks are there on their worst day. I know it. K? I've seen it. So I think that, what's worked for me as a judge in my current practice, and I wish that it could be be spread to all judges, is is you gotta let people speak their mind.

Okay? Because no matter what the decision is that you make, I think that you wanna make sure that they were heard. They need to understand that even though things didn't go their way, they had a chance to positively interact with the justice system in a respectful way and that the judge heard them. That's very important to me. Alright. So I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have.

Great. Yellow on the top. Yep. There you go.

Councilman? Hi.

I'm I'm Sarah, and I just wanted to thank you so much for applying for this position. I really appreciate all the wonderful things that you said about what a courtroom should be like and what a judge should act like. Resonates with me at my house. And I I just wanted to to ask some more specifics about one of the things that we here at the City of Tacoma and on our council really strongly in is finding other ways to help people, and that's through our therapeutic and also community court. And I'd love if you could talk a little bit about your experience with therapeutic community court and how you view court support services as a part of that.

Absolutely. So, I mean, at the as I kinda said, the municipal courts and the district courts at their core are courts of rehabilitation. Okay? And the core of that principle oftentimes is identifying what what

behaviors, what needs

brought the people to your core. And and and it's a sad fact that I know that everybody in this room grapples with every day. But chemical dependency, mental health, these things are an unfortunate part of our society. And so at the prosecutor's office, I absolutely because of the the types of crimes that I prosecuted, treatment was always a component. I worked with Rose Welhelm to give back when she was doing the drug court program, and I'm frankly I'm not sure if she's still there or not, but it's a hugely important thing in all levels of court to identify what services do people need to get them away from the courts.

And and, again, I can't stress this enough with district court and municipal courts. That's where the services are gonna make the most difference. You know, you if somebody is committed a minor misstep because of the chemical dependency problem, that's a health problem. We need their district courts and municipal courts are not gonna send them to jail forever. They're they are a member of our community. Okay? They're coming back. So we need to make them we need to give them the tools to be the best community member with us. Chemical dependency treatment, mental health, anger management, we wanna make them good community members. We wanna give them the tools to be good family members.

Because this is that's the time to to get them back out to the community because that that's where they're going. In district court municipal court, you're not crushing anybody. You're you're you're helping them come back.

Thank you.

Vice chair Michelle?

Thank you, chair, and thank you so much for for putting your name in and then coming to interview with us. I really appreciate it. I really also appreciate hearing about your family story. It's it's a dark chapter in your history. One of the questions I had is, what do you feel is is one of your greatest weaknesses for this position, and how do you how

do you intend on, like, going about

building on that?

So I think that, in my experience, one of the the biggest pressures that judges have to operate under is this time and efficiency. Especially at the municipal court, district court levels, you got lots of cases, and you have to find a way to handle them efficiently and effectively. And so I think that if it can be thought of, I suppose it's a weakness, it's kind of a double edged sword, but I have a lot of experience in the justice system. And so, I think it's important. I have to always check myself not to not to start drifting into autopilot and handling the cases on an efficiency level.

You always have to remember, to treat each case as this is like I said, this is this person's worst day. Even if it's just a traffic ticket. You don't know the circumstances that brought them there. You don't know what this traffic ticket could mean for their life. You don't know what it means to have a driver's license and the things that they gotta do. It's a big deal to them. And so I think that anybody who's been in the justice system a long time, you may sometimes start to drift and just start doing the job, and you always gotta check yourself. Make sure that you're looking at that person from their perspective, and give them the time and respect they deserve.

Thank you. Yeah.

Deputy mayor, do you have any questions for our applicants?

I'm not sure where to look.

Like the voice of god.

Oh, okay.

Sorry. I'm trying to find my button.

I actually I thought you guys asked some really good questions, and I thought those were really thorough answers. I don't have any more.

Alright. You know, you know, I have a probably more technical question for you. So what is the can you describe, like, your work as a

Oh my goodness. Judge for Washington? Oh, oh, I'm so sorry. Yes. So the Board of Industrial Insurance Appeals is a state agency that basically hears appeals from orders issued by the Department of Labor and Industries. So you have the Department of Labor and Industries. They'll they'll make decisions based on workers' compensation, workplace safety violations. They do a lot of kind of tax premiums. Any business owner, any small business owner knows about that kind of stuff. All of those things, if a person disagrees with the decision made by the Department of Labor and Industries, it goes to my agency, which

is separate from the department called the

Board of Industrial Insurance Appeals. We assign a judge to mediate the case, which I have experience doing that and and presiding over the hearing. And hearings at the Board of Industrial Insurance Appeals operate like superior court bench trials. That so I know that some people may have had administrative hearings that are casual. The rules of evidence don't apply.

Things are kind of, like, on an interactive basis. The Board of Industrial Insurance Appeals is actually, the hearings judges operate like like a judge. They enforce the rules of evidence. The superior court civil rules apply. And I I can imagine that most superior court judges, will perhaps sometimes to their chagrin, say that the parties are stuck with the record that's made at the agency. And so at the superior court level, they just have to read it. So the parties actually work really hard to litigate their cases in front of the hearings judge or investor insurance. Yeah. I didn't actually know about that agency long before I started

working there.

Okay. Yeah.

It's a very interesting practice. Yeah. I just had a question about it. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thanks

for asking.

I think the question I actually follow-up on Neil's. Do you have any questions for us? I

mean, I think that, just like any applicant, timeline, what's the kind of timeline that can be expected for decisions being made and things like that?

Yeah. So we are gonna

we

have we've got one interview. You're our second one. We have two more that we'll be completing. We'll open the second session to kinda discuss how the kids will come back out of this in second session, and we'll further discuss and come in withdraw making motions. So you will get a the committee will

make a decision by the end of the day today.

K. We'll forward names to the mayor, and it's her final decision on that. So we're there, but we're working with the mayor's office if you're looking forward to get her to

see what her time is for that. I would imagine Great.

Yeah. Okay. Alright.

But, I mean, we all I mean, judge Henke is retiring on January 1. So we need the time is of the essence to have someone out and ready

to go before she departs. Great. Okay. Thanks.

Alright.

Yeah. I would

say that was my main question. Okay.

Thank you so much.

Well, thank you very much, Neil. It's pleasure meeting you, and thank you for your willingness to serve us in this capacity. Alright.

Thanks,

Okay. And our next two applicants are online.

Next two are online. There was

That's the first interview I've

done in person since pre COVID.

It feels good. It's been

a long time. All all

of her are usually online,

so it's good.

A real person. I oh, they're old,

but, like, a person who's

in in

person. There you go.

Okay. You're very good. Okay.

So we're gonna send Pam.

Pam Wolfers. Okay. So, Pam, this last one. There you go.

Alright. Good morning.

Good morning. Can we pin her to the screen

so she's bigger than us?

One second while we're working through some techno technological.

No worries. I'm making sure that I can see you guys as well.

Okay.

Do we place him? Oh,

we gotta do that. Sorry. Sorry. We're working our way through. Well, good morning, Pamela. How are you doing this morning?

I am well. Thank you for asking. Thank you for having me as well.

Yeah. So my name is John Heinz. I'm the chair of the member performance finance committee, so I'll be directing our meeting this morning or our conversation this morning. So the way we're gonna work is you are sent two questions ahead of time. We're gonna set a clock that'll be on the screen for you to see for twenty minutes. The first ten minutes is kind of for you to answer or take time to answer the questions that provide ahead of time. And then with the remaining time, for the committee members to

ask any follow-up questions you might have. Perfect.

At the end of the meet at the end of the time, if there are no further questions or if the to the twenty minute mark, we'll give you an opportunity to ask any questions of us, and then we will be done for today.

Alright.

So I will turn it over to you. The clock will start whenever you're ready, and excited to hear more about

Thank you. Well, I am Pam Nogueira. I am currently the Olympian Municipal Court judge. I have been on this specific bench for a little over two years. And prior to that, I was a court commissioner for Thurston County Superior Court.

With that said, obviously and I'm gonna change the order of that question. I think it's important for you to know my resume and what I bring to the table before I tell you my why. So, obviously, I I have the bench experience. I'm I'm familiar with the criminal cases, the infraction cases, criminal rules, procedures, and everything that entails of being on the bench. With that said, I I in my eyes, this position is so much more than just simply, being on the bench.

Can you see my dog in the background? Is that what's happening? Yes. I do bring my dog to work. We have our own little policy here in Olympia.

We find the dogs to be very therapeutical, especially with the amount of, you know, high level stress that our job brings. And so I'm not the only one that has a dog here, but it's that that's z the dog. She's a one year old troublemaker. I I I just saw the giggles, and I was like, I can't see her, but I'm assuming she's in the back somewhere. So as I was saying, I I do believe that this specific position, it takes a unique person to not just do this job, but to do it as well.

Right? Many back in the day, I think we had an older view that a judge will come, do court, and leave. That is far from what I see my position to be. Personally, here in Olympia, we've reshaped our treatment court to really have our community court to be the most evidenced based it possibly could be. We partner with local stakeholders to provide social service in the courtroom.

We created resource fairs. We go above and beyond to finding the gaps and needs of our community and ensuring that us, as a court of limited jurisdiction, we're offering that first opportunity for intervention and opportunity for rehabilitation. So to me, I do believe that this position is not just about being on the bench, but it's also the vision behind the bench as to what you can do and what and always having the eye for how we can do it better. Because the reality is our problems are always changing, and people are not they're individuals. They each have a unique solution to every barrier and struggles that they face on a daily basis.

There is not a one answer solve all, and that's why we need someone that is always willing to adapt and change and thinking about creative alternatives. With that said, I also think it's important about discussing judicial temperament. Obviously, there are the four pillars of fairness that I hope every judge strives to to be and enforce, which are the neutrality, respect, voice, and trustworthiness. I think we're we're living in a time where promoting public confidence in the judiciaries is extremely important, and I strive to do that through my leadership in the community, my leadership in the District and Municipal Court Judges Association, which if you have seen my resume, I serve in mark committees that I could possibly count, and, really being a part of every in every aspect possible. I've been involved with the Washington State Patrol Law Academy providing, opportunities to talk to their students, basically every mock trial there is in in this side of the state with the YMCA, the MTAs, UW.

We've been involved with we're offered to be involved as well with local high schools, with some responding more excitingly than others, but, certainly done lot days in local schools. And and I know that Tacoma Municipal Courts does a great job. I've been lucky enough to be very good friends with judge Sontag. We we met in college, went and met again in law school, and and thankfully remained good friends through the years. And but but, again, I I think what what I also like about being a judge is increasing representation about young women and more specifically as an immigrant, bringing that representation and showing that there is a different voice and that I'm willing to listen and hear from different backgrounds.

With that said, I think I I will switch into my why. So when I first moved to The United States, I lived in the Tacoma area. I went to UW Tacoma. And to me, when I've learned that my court was closing, my first thought was, well, like, at least I get to go back to Tacoma. So to me, that that's been in the plans to move back to that community for a while now.

I loved volunteering as a college student at Lincoln and Mount Tahoma. And, you you know, I've, again, always been involved in that community. But more than that, there is a reason why I've loved Tacoma. And it's not just because how it looks, but it's because how this city acts and how it has meaningful partnerships throughout the city that I truly think that the court could use as well. One thing that I've done in my court was truly engage with our crisis response team and what we call familiar faces, I believe, would translate really well to your guys' HEAL, your houseless outreach program, and really make sure that they had a very big presence in our courtroom.

In fact, in one of our partners, we found out that a lot of the WorkSource and other work alternative programs that we've partnered with for our court participants required two letters of recommendation to make any further referrals. So one of the things that we've created was a pilot program in which our familiar faces would allow folks to shadow them for a few days. And then if they found that person to be willing to learn and participate and engage that they would offer that letter of recommendation on behalf of a different employer. So it was a really nice way of meeting that gap. And and, again, I I think there are so many partnerships to be had in so many different ways through the city.

I know, obviously, Tacoma Creates has a partnership with so many different organizations that could, again, be community service and and all sorts of other ideas for the courts. And I say this because, obviously, municipal courts specifically as a courts of limited jurisdiction are oftentimes the first place individuals interact with a court system. And with that, we have so much opportunity not just to, you know, ensure accountability, but also rehabilitation and ensure that we are taking steps to ensure that the community is not only safe but thriving. Obviously, I think that promotes you know, the grit growth and gratitude of Tacoma. And, again, it would be an honor to join your court.

I I think it is a great court as it is, but I I I would you would again, it would be a privilege and an honor to to work alongside judge Krop and judge Sondag. But not just that. I think Tacoma is special, and and and I think I have a lot of vision and and dreams that I I it doesn't just take one person. That was probably the hardest thing to learn in this job is that it takes all of the branches of a government working together to truly have the vision as to how to move the city forward. That although we may be independent, that we can only truly thrive by working together.

And I'm I have fifteen seconds left left, so I'm gonna stop here.

Alright. Thanks. Well, thank you very much, Pamela, and I'm gonna kick it over to council member Robaugh to ask our first question.

Yeah. Thank you so much for your interest in serving on our municipal court here in Tacoma, and I'm sorry to hear that that it sounds like your job is going away because it's becoming part of Thurston County. Is that correct?

Yeah. That is correct.

Yeah. Yeah. That is really sad. Just want to recognize, like, less service for people. Like, I think, for me, as my husband is a superior court judge here, and I would say I just really appreciate what how important your job is. My question really is about therapeutic and community court. And if you if you're steeped in our city, that's something that our council really is leaning into is how do we how do we use our therapeutic community court more. And just I'd love to hear from you how you you just a second here. Court support services. And if you could just talk a little bit about that, that would

be great. Thank you. Of course. So I'm extremely passionate about treatment courts. That's what I've studied and then my thesis in law school.

It's been something that it's, again, been a passion of mine from the very beginning. But at the same time, I very much understand that treatment courts, the prosecutor's office are the gatekeepers. So I I think the the primary thing that as a judge, I was working on and and would hope to continue to work in Tacoma is to truly ensure that we have a group mentality as the core team for treatment court, and that there is the buy in of every stakeholder in that team so that with evidence based approaches, we can ensure that every eligible participant is getting that chance. But on the other side of the coin is that treatment court is not for everybody. Evidence shows that specific crimes are eligible and specific crimes are not.

So then what do you do? And that's where I've completely relaunched my community supervision office as well to truly ensure that there was a chance of rehabilitation, even for those that didn't qualify in treatment court. So we had a social worker coming into the courtroom. We created a resource hub that was available to everyone. And, again, just ensuring that everyone has that training and education, beyond the team mentality so that we can collaborate and communicate those needs and gaps, to continue to serve the community in the best way possible.

So it's it's a multilayered response, and I apologize for that. But it is a it's a difficult problem, and I I I think it it ought to have a multilayer response.

Thank you.

Of course.

Alright. Vice chair Bushnell. Thank you, chair, and, thank you so much for for your willingness to apply. I really love hearing about how, you know, your roots in Tacoma and

and wanting to come back.

And I I completely understand that having spent, some time in the marine corps away from Tacoma, and I

couldn't wait to find a way

to come back.

So one of my questions is in regards to, like, do you have you identified any potential weaknesses in yourself, and and what would you do to, kind of combat that as it pertains to this position?

Yeah. Of course. I I mean, I hate to say this in an in an interview, but I think we all have a million weaknesses. Right? That's what makes us human.

And I think you can only be good at this job if you were humble and aware of those weaknesses. And it's why I'm always studying, and I'm always learning, and I'm always putting myself through additional training. Because the reality is not only are things always changing, but I'm never going to be the smartest person in the room. And I think that's that's what it takes for us to really always be seeking that evidence based studies. And I say that very often with treatment court because oftentimes people say, well, it's so much about feelings, and I know it's not about feelings at all.

The feeling is I want you to help our community. But the how, it's all about the evidence and what the studies show are the most efficient way of treating substance use disorder and mental health and the root causes of criminal behavior. So to me, again, it's not about, I I know I will never know everything. That's part of life. Right? So it's it's always about studying and working harder, and that's the one thing I know I have. I I will always strive to work the hardest, to be the hardest working in the room.

Great. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Right. Deborah Daniels is joining us online while you pay a lot. I just wanna see if she had any questions for you. Alright.

Well, hell hello. Thank you so much for applying and sharing your story. I can't remember when I got to my deeper question about your experience with therapeutic courts and things of that nature. So I will yield my time.

Well, thanks.

No. Thank you so much. It leaves me to kind of a final question. I think the question I just have to ask is, you know, you currently reside in Olympia, so to order takes place, you would you would be willing to move to Tacoma and then take on the role. Correct?

Oh, yeah. Most definitely. And, again, I was already planning on relocating.

Okay.

Whether I have to do this a month or two sooner, that is not the end of the world. I'm very much part of the plan as it was.

Alright. No. I think that was my my one question. I had was similar just around kinda what's the thing you're most proud of that you've done since you've been

on events in Olympia? Honestly,

the work we've done with our treatment court has been phenomenal. We've also created so let me backtrack. So we made sure that all of the memorandum of understandings that we have with every provider for community court, which there were quite a few, we've modified them all to ensure that not only our community court participants, but any member of the public could have access to. So even if someone didn't participate in community court, I could still, as a pretrial release, order folks to stop by a resource hub. So, obviously, especially on a pretrial services, I'm not allowed to order them to take advantage of the services, but I could order them to stop by.

And, hopefully, you know, that connection in itself sparked a little bit of change and opportunities for those folks' lives. We've gathered, a a ton of donations for hygiene products, clothing items, and that was always available to all of our core participants. We've also created biannual resource fairs. And the last year, and I know this is gonna sound quirky, but I truly loved that, we brought a yoga instructor to do a yoga meditation session in the courtroom. And we realized a lot of folks wouldn't partake, but it was really just the idea of showing the courtroom as a place of healing and not a place of trauma and inviting folks to have that happen while the resource fair was happening.

Again, because we realized that not always folks wanted to come to a courtroom together to have help. Right? So it was a way of demonstrating that it would be a welcoming place. We had foods. We had snacks.

We partnered with the Thurston County Food Bank, and they offered our our folks food on a weekly basis as well. So there is a lot. The team we have here is absolutely excellent. The morale that we've had, you know, I always say, you know, this court closure has been heartbreaking in so many different ways. But the reality that my staff did not want to leave and were afraid that they would never find a place, they would be this happy, it was heartbreaking. And yet there was so much gratitude in in that thought and that feeling. So it I couldn't be more thankful for this experience.

Thanks. Well, thank you for question, Pamela. And so I get to ask then the final question, which is do you have any questions for us about the appointment process?

My my primary question would be about the timeline.

Yeah. So great question. So timeline is judging you retired from January 1, we wanna have something in place or have a decision here short very soon. So you are our third interview of four. Mhmm. We will complete interviews here in a moment, and then we will, as a committee, decide on what names to move forward to the mayor. The mayor is the one who makes the final choice for the appointment process. So you'll know by the end of the very shortly after, due today whether you're moving forward for the appointment process there or not. The mayor's office if you're moved forward, the mayor's office will work with you on that. But, otherwise, I just wanna thank you so much for for willingness to apply and share your story with us, and, it's always great to see people who are excited serving in this role.

Thank you all so much. And I can't say how, obviously, I've I've I've been following Tacoma for a while, but it's just really nice to see the work that you each do, you know, looking through city council meetings and having previously been a city council member myself, it's just really nice to see so many folks put together and with so much goodwill and hardworking. So, again, just thank you for your work as hopefully a very soon to be future residence of your town. So I just wanted to thank you as well.

Oh, I I have seen you're the you're a member of the Rainey City Council. I know your mayor very well. And my one of my good friends is the his family owns the. So, anyways

There you go.

There you go. Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you. Course of your day, and we will the course office will be in touch with you shortly.

Thank you so much. Same to y'all.

Their confirmation? Yeah. Okay. There you go. Just double check. Here we go.

So there's still, like, a checking

balance on that one.

Yeah. Alright. Good morning. Good morning. Now thank you for coming in and be interviewed with us this morning. How are you doing?

Good. How are you?

I'm very good.

So I'm chair Heinz. I'm welcome to network performance of finance committee. We are going to put a timer up. You will have and it's gonna be for twenty minutes. You have about ten minutes to answer the question that was sent to you ahead of time. And at ten minutes, I'll try to just give you a heads up. Say, hey. We're getting close to ten minute timer. You can feel free to continue if there's some points you wanna make or wrap up at that point in time. And then we'll have ten minutes for the committee members to ask them any follow-up questions.

Great. Thank you.

Alright. So you can feel free to begin wherever you'd like unless you have any questions for us, and, the talk can start when you do.

Do you want me to read the questions or

just You you do not have to. We have it in front of us. So

Okay. Great. Thank you. I'm ready when you are.

Go for it.

Alright. Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity. My career has been shaped by advocacy and community service. I have been a public servant serving the state of Washington as a judge, administrative law judge since 2021. I believe in serving the community that has accepted me and helped me grow.

I'm a resident of Tacoma and have volunteered, with the city of Tacoma, different organizations and commissions, and had the privilege of serving, as a chair and commissioner for the commission for immigrant and refugee affairs, with the city of Tacoma. I'm proud to see how much Tacoma is growing, and I believe that change starts with our local communities. This is why I would, love to have the opportunity to serve my local community as a judge. I understand that judge Henke also served as an administrative law judge for five years. My in my current role, I have served almost five years, and I have heard, thousands of cases ranging from child support, public benefits appeals, licensing issues, allegations of child and vulnerable adults, abuse and maltreatment, unemployment benefit appeals.

And I have, I believe that I have evaluated and heard every case impartially. I've trained, on my own and by my employer to remain unbiased and recognize when I do have personal biases and how to eliminate them before I make a decision. I absolutely love the practice of law, and, I absolutely love serving the community. Prior to my current role, I worked privately as an immigration attorney representing clients in more than, 20 different states, following their cases all the way from, the trial court to board of immigration appeals and even the ninth circuit. I also work currently as a pro tem judge, which, means basically a substitute judge when the main elected judge is not available, and that is with the district court in Jefferson County.

I hear, infraction traffic cases and criminal matters, mainly misdemeanors and gross misdemeanors. And I believe that that's very similar to what a judge in Tacoma municipal court hears daily. My, experience proves that I, adapt easily changing from federal practice to state practice, administrative, and, state rules. I understand the importance of working really hard to prepare, when I change fields and even when I have experience working in that field. I am not a stranger to asking questions from, brilliant mentors that I have had and continue to have.

If I, don't understand something or if I need another set of eyes on, what I am making a decision. And I do understand that ultimately, I make the decision, and every decision that I make, can impact the community, the families, and the individuals before me. I currently in my role as a lead administrative law judge, I have worked with my colleagues to develop training and educational, continued legal education presentations, and, it's very similar to what I did before going to law school, which was teaching. Lastly, I understand, that Tacoma is home to communities from different backgrounds and experiences. And, I use my personal experience, as an immigrant and, the training that I have received to understand different communities and their experiences with the legal system, and I use that in, my everyday work, as a judge.

I know that our communities have unique backgrounds as a community, but also individually, and I feel competent in my ability to address everyone's needs in my hearings. Like I said before, I've seen firsthand every decision impacts not just the individual, but also the community at large. And I hope that I can bring my personal and professional experience to serve the community of Tacoma and our legal system. As far as the second question, I strongly believe in impartial tone and treatment of all parties. I believe that I have maintained that impartial temperament in my hearings.

In my role as an administrative law judge, I hear cases mainly from pro se litigants, which means individuals representing themselves. Also, in district court infraction docket, it is a large percentage of individuals who represent themselves. And I understand how difficult it is to represent yourself whether you are, an attorney or not, whether you have any exposure to legal system and, knowledge of legal, of our laws. It is very difficult to represent yourself. So I understand that I should remain patient and impartial.

I, tend to repeat myself as many times as needed, to explain the rules and the procedures of the hearing. I make sure that, all parties feel heard and, they have an equal, an equitable opportunity to present their cases. I have, in my role, worked with many individuals who, may have needed accommodations, or had the language, English, deficiency or or is difficulties with understanding English. And so I understand the importance of providing accommodations, providing interpreters, and making sure that everybody is ultimately feeling that they have been heard and they presented their case. In my role, we are often evaluated, by our colleagues, for our temperament and con for conducting our, hearings, and I have always received positive feedback on, my patients and fair temperament in my hearing.

Thank you.

Alright. Thank you. With that, I will kick it over to council member Roma to ask our first question.

Hi, Natalie. Hello. I'm just gonna let everyone know that I do know you, and I know you personally, and we have done stuff with my lottery, and I just wanna be honest about our relationship. And I wanna also thank you for all of the years that you served on on, Sierra. I appreciate everything you brought to that, and I really appreciate the bucket of experience that you bring to your to your interest in being on our Takoma municipal court.

So thank you so much for all of that. My question's really focused on therapeutic and community court. Our council is very interested in our on that part of what they do in in Tacoma Municipal Court. So I'd just love to hear where where you are with the with that. And if you could talk a little bit about court court support services, that would be great.

Thank you. I have, received, a lot of training from, district court judge Walker, in Jefferson County on therapeutic court. In my role as an administrative law judge, we don't have therapeutic court, but we do have cases involving, individuals who, like I said, may need additional assistance. So I understand, at least in Jefferson County, that, there are a lot of resources through the probation manager's office and, through, the peer counselors and through the drug court, that individuals can access resources. And, I understand the importance of making sure that we are patient with individuals who are going through, personal, challenges, to, complete their therapeutic court and graduate from those.

I I hear, a lot of amazing success stories, including a lot of individuals who graduate from, therapeutic court and end up actually serving therapeutic court in different positions. I have also received some training additionally as far as just training by other judges, but that is the extent of my experience. I do really personally believe, in, therapeutic and drug courts and how important it is to address the underlying issues too that may impact recidivism.

Thank you.

Alright. Vice chairperson. Thank you, chair, and and thank you so much for, one, your your service to our community, and now and then in the past. And then thank you for for applying for this. I know that you really care deeply about Tacoma, so I know that this is a very top of, priorities for you. One of the questions I had is what do you feel is, one of your greatest weaknesses coming into this position, and and how do you think, what you'll do to to really address that?

Thank you. Going from administrative law judge to I I will talk about the, experience I have with the district court. Initially, it was very difficult for me to, make a decision right on the spot in the hearing. As an administrative law judge, we do have the opportunity to, complete the hearing and close the record and then, have a certain amount of time to make a decision. So it it initially was very difficult for me to make a decision, on the record, record, on the spot.

But since then, I have, been comfortable to take a minute, or more and, research something. And if I have to, like I said, I am no stranger to asking, for assistance and, from mentors to understand anything that I may, struggle with. But since then, I I believe that I have worked on that, and it's a lot easier for me to either make a decision on the record or, perhaps, have additional time to make a decision. As far as, changing, caseloads and courts, it's always going to be difficult. But as I said earlier, because I've had, experience that's going from federal court to administrative court to then state courts, I I I have learned to adapt to changes and, really prepare, for any challenges that I anticipate.

Great. Thank you so much.

Alright. Thank you, Natalie. My question that I asked the previous applicants was just kind of of your work in the legal field. What are you the most proud of?

Oh, that's a difficult one. What I'm personally proud of is, my achievements, coming to America, speaking almost almost no English to learning English, to getting, my undergrad graduate degree in English and then going to law school and to becoming, an attorney and a judge. But all of that, I owe it to, the community that helps help me grow. And, what I'm proud of is that I have always, tried to give back to the community. I've done a lot of pro bono cases in my private practice, and I do serve in different, roles in the community.

So that I believe that my, giving back to the community as much as I could has been, what I'm mostly proud of.

Alright. Well, thank you for that answer, and I appreciate all of your service.

With our time remaining, Natalie, the question I can end this with is, do you have any questions for us on the appointment process?

I I believe I asked a question earlier from, the city clerk. My question was just the, timeline as far as when you would make a decision, and I was told, potentially today just for this round, and then it goes to the mayor.

Yes. That's very yeah. So that is you are our last applicant. So we'll after this, we conclude our application process, and we'll begin our discussion. We, as a committee, will forward names to the mayor for future consideration, and she will make a final recommendation to the full council for confirmation in early January. Judge Henke was retiring at January 1, so we wanna make sure we know have a rough idea of who's gonna be taking her spot before that happens. So you'll know from the city clerk sometime this afternoon about what the outcome of our conversation.

Alright. Thank you for that. I I don't have any other questions. Well,

thank you so much for coming in and interviewing us this morning and for your willingness to serve, and you have a wonderful rest of your day.

You too. And thank you for all you do for the community, all of you. Have a great day.

Okay. Alright. So we have concluded our interviews. And at this point in time, I will entertain a motion to convene to executive session pursuant to our study 42 dot 30 dot 1101 h to evaluate qualifications of a candidate for appointment to elected office not to exceed ten minutes. Second.

So moved.

Oh.

Second.

Oh, I thought I

said that.

Oh, second. Sorry.

To move

by the vice chair and second

by customer robot. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed. Alright.

So ten minutes. Do we need to change locations or how many minutes? Okay. So customers three of them will Alright. Do I have the gavels back?

No. I don't. Alright. We are yes. We are back in session. Thank you very much for the patience of all of our listeners out there. I will gonna turn over to customer Rohmah to make some comments about our applicants. Thank

you very much, Cher. And I just wanna say that when we do interviews, I we rarely have such a great quality. Every single person had, wonderful experience. Also, just the diversity in our candidates, I just was really impressed with that. I felt their packets were really well done. I also just I wanna just say that I really appreciate that they took the time to interview as well. I know it's been a really busy part of their day of work, and so I appreciate that as well. I just wanna start with the first one. It was with Sergio. I really felt that he is really well aligned to what we're already doing in Tacoma Municipal Court because of what he's been doing right now.

I appreciate what he brought as far as experience from Auburn with therapeutic court. I just I really appreciate all of that. Neil, I felt our second candidate. Really appreciate his background, his story, his breadth of experience in the prosecutor's office working in appeals court, also just and the other work that he's been doing as a pro tem and his experience with district court. I think that that he has that experience as well with therapeutic courts.

I appreciate that. Pamela, loved her. She's really great. I really am sorry to hear that her job is going away because they're changing how their courts are being done in Olympia, Thurston County. And I just really I appreciate all of the things that she has done and what she would bring to this job.

I her her creativity, I just think that that was amazing, and I think that that would be such a great thing here as well. Natalie Natalie has a different bucket of experience, but I really appreciate how she got here and what she's been doing. And also just the she's the only person that's on that has experience with something else at the city besides Sergio. She actually has been on CIRA, our commission for immigrant and refugee affairs, and I appreciate that and what she's done there. And she was chair, and that's how I know her.

So I just I wanna say we just have had such great candidates, and this was probably my favorite interviews that we've done. So I just I'm so lucky I got to be here, and I really appreciate this job I get to do. So

K. If you were advanced to names, who would you put for?

Sergio Flores and Neil. What's Neil's

last name?

How do say it? Coribe. Coribe. Those would be the two I would consider.

Okay. Thank you, councilor Robot.

Thank you so much.

We'll go with vice vice chairperson.

Thank you, chair. I just wanna say that I really appreciate all the candidates that put their names forward and their willingness to serve in this position. It's obviously very important, not just for our community, but as a function of the city. And I think each of the candidates really bring a well rounded and unique experiences that would really be beneficial to the bench. So this is very tough.

I wish we could appoint all three of them. I think they each would be able to serve really well in this role. Or, excuse me, all four of them would be able to serve really well in this role. I particularly appreciate Sergio Flores and his abilities and his and experience both within the municipal court. I feel like he would do a really good job of of coming in and understanding the system as it is, and be able to execute on those duties right away, as well as experiences around therapeutic courts.

He also has a very compelling, background that I think would lend really well to the diversity of our community. I also particularly appreciate Neil. I think he really has a good background and great experience that I think would be beneficial to the bench. He also has, I think, just a very a judge judgely view of of the courts and procedures, and I think his experience would be really beneficial. And, again, I think the other candidates are also good as well, and I I wish we could appoint all four. But if I had to pick the top two for me, would

be Sergio and Neil. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Vice chair. I see the. So She's got Okay. Alright. So

I guess I'll

Oh, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry.

Okay. So thank you to customer push vice chair push not customer for

thoughts on this one.

I just would reiterate, you know, I I know how hard it is to, like, to apply and what service capacity is. You know, I I think we all really value the work on this important support team does. So, usually, we do interviews. There are people that stand out, and there are people that, you know, kind of candidates who stand out. And I felt like we had four candidates, and it's really tough to kind of differentiate between them all. I I appreciate Natalie and her her service so far and her experience in Jefferson County and all her

service community. I thought it

was really valuable information to share, and I I really appreciate her answers to my question about what she's so proud of. I think she, at some point, would be a really good judge. I also really appreciate Pamela and kind of her commitment. I'm deeply impressed by her resume and how much she's done in her short time since she graduated from law school. I think she takes really pride in that, and I think it really comes through.

She's very engaged. And I think we'd be very lucky to have someone like her serving as a support judge in Tacoma. That being said, I I mean, I agree with my colleagues. I think Sergio Flores and, you know, more definitely to candidates opposed to Hoffman was actually most comfortable recommending for them there. I think Sergio's experience at our best support so far and kind of his long list of support from the other members of the bench, along with many other people in the community makes he's really makes him stand out in the candidate.

I think tells him what is the top and something else that I would

seriously consider. I thought Neil was deeply impressed with this interview, and I thought that would be a really compelling case for, you know, why he should be a judge. So I, you know, I would also agree that we should forward the names of Sergio Flores and. So with that, councilor Bushnell, I would entertain the motion.

I move to forward Sergio Cueva Flores and Neil Haribe as a candidate for a judge position two to mayor warrants for consideration.

Second.

Alright. It has been moved and seconded. All those in favor of any final questions or comments. I would just again say thank you. I know it takes a lot of courage to stand up and and to interview, and I think we had a great group

of applicants here that could would

the court judges. With that, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. All those opposed. Alright. The motion started out. Thank you. Oh, yes. Right. And with that, Andy, can we skip over top several meetings? Because alright. I'm just gonna do it. So we have one more meeting on December 16 versus board of ethics interviews. Nicole, how many applicants do we have for ethics?

We'll be interviewing four. There's two positions open. Okay.

So one reappointment and one and but two open positions in four areas. Thank you, Nicole. And that will be our December 16 meeting, and we are canceled on January 6 because we'll have a new council. I don't have a new until committees are finally settled. So with that, I hope that there are no other items interests, and I'll entertain the

final motion. Move to adjourn.

Second.

All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion's adopted by the senator. Thank you.