Board of Aldermen - Special Meeting

which means it is 2:00 which is our appointed hour and I'm going to do our protocol associated with the special call meeting which is I'm going to call our meeting to order tonight and I'm going to read my page as a call to the special meeting special meeting please so y'all bear with me on that and accordance provisions of section 21-3-21 Mississippi code Mississippi code of 1972 to as amended. Mayor G is hereby give notice of a special call meeting to be held Tuesday, February 17th, 2026 at 2 p.m. the second floor conference room, the city of Starkville city hall located 110 West Main Street of the mayor of the board of alderman of the city of Starville. Specific agenda items of the meeting are listed as follows. A is presentation and discussion by John Cunningham with Neil Schaper Engineers on the MDEQ requirements for the proposed remediation and closing of the Rockville landfill. B is discussion regarding sharing resources for the proposed development adoption of building and inspection codes by Pont County for areas around the city of Starville that are contiguous in planned for denser development. And C is discussion consideration for a committee to develop an RFQ to evaluate the feasibility and cost for relocation and construction of a new county jail signed by myself and they did February 9th 2026 at 10:00 a.m. So, um, President Howard, is there something you need to do to call your meeting to order? No, we we just actually recessed out of our LA meeting yesterday, so we're now back in session.

Okay. All right. Sounds good. Well, in that case, um, let me just set the stage for Mr. Cunningham, who is kind enough to be here, and I put him first cuz he's on the clock, so we don't want to sit through all the hook stuff. U, he's with Neil Schaer. And, um, in researching this for our meeting today, I came I went through all my old emails and discovered that this actually started back in 2016 before um, I was in office. Certainly. So, Mr. Cunningham has been dealing with this for a lot longer, but the discovery of the um expansion beyond the borders of the existing landfill were we're were in 2016, I believe. And so, I also put a map in front of you just so that you'll have a look at what the what the map reflects. Um, but Mr. Cunningham is going to provide us with a kind of a timeline and a way forward and basically where we are right now. Uh because as it stands with our interlocal agreement, the city and the county are 50/50 owners of property, but operationally speaking, we are 65% of the operational cost and the county is 35% of the operational cost. So over the years, we've got, you know, x amount each one of us has invested in this or spent on this. But um since 2018, I guess, we've actually been closed. Um so anyway, Mr. Cutting him if you would please unless there's some questions as a lead in for for him.

Yes ma'am. How many acres this is? John 40. Well it's the total landfill was about 80 acres or so permitted originally. Okay. But we are closing about well 13.66 acres. So is the other part not been used? It has not been used. That's right. Thank you. And it's been released back at this time back to the city for whatever uses. Uh see if anything. Okay. Thank you.

Uh if everybody got a I got a hand out. I've got this PowerPoint here if everybody wants to look try to look at it or you can follow along in the in the handout here I've got as well. Um let me start off as mayor said I wanted to kind of give you a recap of where we are, how we got here. what's involved a little bit with the regulations as far as go along with this landfield. Uh we'll talk about the closure plan that we have to have uh completed. Uh go through a few timelines and I've got a little budget here and then I can open the floor up for any questions or comments anybody may have. Uh I'll start out by saying that this landfield is permitted through a general permit with the Mississippi Department of Environmental Quality and has to follow those guidelines and rules and regulations uh under the state of Mississippi uh laws. Uh with that uh when a landfill like this goes into into operation, you know, it's inspected annually by MDEQ uh for make making sure things are in compliance and so forth and everything is operational like it should. Um there's an annual report that require is required uh every year by uh an operator of a landfill like this has to go back to MDQ. Uh this landfill has been dormant like the mayor said since 2018, but we've still been reporting yearly on that has been inactive. And so we just just submitted last uh the 2025 calendar year report uh last week. So again, even though it's dormant, we're still having to go through the process of of staying within the regulations. And so where we are um is is trying to get to the final closure of the of the site. But back in

2015 um there was some inspection done that showed some some non-compliance areas that would uh bleed present. Um that's back when we got involved with the city on trying to to do a little due diligence and come up with where things really were with the landfield. Was there anything that was actually out of compliance? And at that time we did find um that waste was outside of the permitted limits. Uh it was not built to the uh the stoopes were built too steep, things like that that had occurred. And um uh at that time the notice of violation came out in 2016 uh requesting a a correction plan that the city would have to put put forth to uh get things back in order, get things back in CL in compliance. uh part of that process went through when I had to do additional bors, so BS out there. And when I say it was outside the limits, it was actually outside, uh almost on other people's property. And so, um part of that correction plan was was coming back and looking at how to get things back in compliance. um whether the options you had back then were to either take everything and relocate it back into the areas we had permitted which you were about to move about 100,000 plus yards of waste that had gotten outside of those limits and um that's a lot of money and so the option was looked at to purchase the property uh to expand the landfield that way we could get everything enclosed in permitted limits but also it would allow um the closure to take place. Uh so that's where what happened was we went through a permit modification to actually of course the city the city went bought the land got the land got everything like that. We

went back to MDQ and uh uh with a permit modification request plus at that time it was discussed about you know getting out of the business and not not taking that rubbish on to the Golden Trial landfield and um and that's how everything got inactive got dormant and that's where we got to that point. um 2019 we submitted the permit modification and closure plan. In 2022 we we actually got that permit approved. Uh however the uh closure plan there was no action taken by MDQ at that time. Um right now we have a a verbal from MDQ to go forward with a closure plan. And so that's kind of where we're at at this point. Uh I wanted to just show you kind of what's involved here. Uh well this if you can see this this area I'm kind of pointing to right here is what the waste area that got outside of the limits. And of course, this is the area that that was purchased to actually modify uh the permit to be able to leave this place this waste in place, come back in and do some remediation, uh flattening these slopes and moving some of this waste into the middle area here. Um so we've got to at this point with closing the landfill, we have to go back to MDQ. uh with uh that plan. Uh it happens again we're waiting on official approval from them on that. So we hope to have that here soon even though we've got verbal to go ahead but we've got about 13.66 acres that was got to be closed. Uh that

means we've got to relocate about a little over 59,000 cubic yards of waste. again that's that's you know with steeper slopes or outside uh some areas there even still in in the buffer area. So um that's part of the plan. Uh this is a sheet from the closure plan that that uh wanted to show you kind of give you an idea of what's involved. Again this is the area that was has been permitted. Uh this is the area that uh the buffer area that we had to buy to be able to to uh modify the permit. And again, some of this waste here has got some steep slopes here and on the outside here that's got to be taken care of. And that waste will be moved back into the middle and vertically to be able to to take care of that and get it back into uh regulated limits.

I want to ask you a question if you don't mind. not but um when when you were talking about the 59,000 cubic yards of waste um that um that are there where where what are you talking about doing with that?

Well, we actually in part of the modification of the permit uh when this permit was issued, you're only allowed to go 25 ft above existing ground with waste. And so part of the modification since you had more room, you know, on one side was you could spread out horizontally, but at the same time we could go up and by doing some analysis, slope stability analysis and things like that, we could go higher than 25 ft to be able to allow us to put that relocated waste in that upper area as we went up vertly above 25 ft. That makes sense.

So I think to because I had the same question. We are taking that 59,000 of cubic yards and just replacing it in the same redistributing it in the same field. Just moving it around. And so you can close it with that waste thing. Yeah, that's right. Top saw. I mean you got to go through the the whole final cap layer of the top so that's what's on the next. So yeah, we don't have to. So, so part of that

that's you get the waste back in inside the permanent limits 4 to one slopes that are flatter slopes and they're they're out there 3:1 and and steeper. Uh so we got to get those slopes laid back, move that waste into the top. Get all that spread out and uh there'll have to be some intermediate soils brought in there to kind of shape it up and be able to get some actual slopes. you got concrete and other type rubble that give you some irregularities on those slopes. Um, but once that's done, then we go in and the contractor will uh put a 18 in of of a low permeability low permeable soil, which is a fat clay basically to make a cap layer that will not allow water to penetrate that that soil and will shed away and keep from creating potential wastewater problems and all that rubbish that can come with decomposition of some of the vegetation and other things like that that are buried in that landfield. Um once we get that in place, we put another 6 in of top soil on it, grass it, uh we're going to put a fence around everything, and once all that's uh been certified by a testing lab we'll have in place and that sort of thing and and sent in to MDQ and they accepted it, then the landfield's closed and then it comes into what is called postco care after components closed. And what that means is just having to maintain the site basically mowing and making sure that nothing's eroding and have any problems with that cap layer. That's again that's the most from a water quality standpoint that's what that that cap layer is doing is protecting uh water quality uh from having a problem

with that going forward. Just just out of curiosity is that cap going to encapsulate the gases that you want to raise it.

Yes. But it there from the rubbish side of things, you don't you don't get the the type of uh gas that you would out say at the Golden Triangle with municipal waste. It's a higher decomposition rate and puts off more gas. Uh or they have to do something with the gas at some point. Either got to vent it uh they're burning it out there. golden triangle. It's got and of course they a long time they were taking it and putting on the generator and putting putting uh electricity back on the grid. But uh but yes, so but we won't have to have anything like that for this this enough inert materials in this we don't get uh that problem.

So we're just going to have to keep it mowed and keep it cleaned up and the fence in place and MD will come out. Is it an annual inspection? I I believe they'll they'll probably start doing an annual inspection that might lead into a you know, every two years. Every two years, every 5 years. And you're and you're going to get back with us on exactly how long it has to be inert or dormant before it can be potentially used for something else given that it's not a golden triangle landfill. It's a more it's a rubbish landfill.

That's right. Yeah. for for a municipal landfill like Golden Triangle and you close something like that, you've got to go through a 30-year postclosure care period uh as part of that process. Now, I don't that's something we need clarification on I think from MQ as to they're going to hold uh on this permit are going to hold you to 30 years or I think

do the things that have proximity to the fenced area the actual waste area are they limited because of their proximity to that or that it was originally you know the whole big thing was designed as a landfill but we haven't used all the cells so is that remaining land available or are we restricted in some kind of So the we are actually closing 13.66 acres and the rest of it out of the 80 or some odd acres that is part of that original permitted area has been taken out of the permit alto together. Okay. So it's available. It's available for y'all to do what you want to do with it. Okay.

And of course you got you got the old sanitary landfield that's been closed out there already too that is a an area that can't be disturbed but Okay. So, do you have those those uh dimensions under that? We do. Create a map of that. I want to I just want to make sure I know you said rubber tail. There's nothing that we're going to encapsulate in there that's going to do anything groundwater, you know, going it should you got about 300 ft of chalk below there from a geological standpoint.

I know. And um that's a pretty good barrier for any and that first real uh aquifer that's Utah formation is about you know right below that from a water uh groundwater standpoint and uh but you should uh same thing uh you know we do a uh like golden triangle those sails are built out there we line the bottom with a twoft cap of clay. A2 or a clay liner, but most landfills are required to have a plastic liner on top of that. Uh, but we were able to show back then that uh landfill was cited with MDQ that there was enough geological formation of that chalk under there that u the plastic liner wasn't needed for protecting the ground water. So you you've got that barrier here too that should uh do the same thing.

Um and of course we remember back in 1982 when all this came into being um there was no there were no restrictions like there are now. So we're having to comply with MDQ that was much less restrictive. I would guess I wasn't wasn't around then but I'm guessing it was much. One other item I've got here. I just want to show y'all kind of what the closure plan looks like and how we went up vertically here. Um so, uh these are just the final contours we put together so far on how this will be built out, constructed once we get to that point. Um so, uh this there were five sales out here. This is part of 51 and two. Uh just for reference there. Um as far as uh timelines go, uh we do want to have an official letter or something back from MDQ uh proving the closure plan that was submitted back in 2019. Um we've we've asked for that. expected uh here soon. Uh put a 30-day window on that. Uh we'll need another 60 days to get through putting together the final bid documents and uh taking those same drawings, some of the same ones I just showed you as part of that closure plan. And uh fine-tuning that um and put bid documents together, get those out and advertise over about a 45day period. uh you want to look at maybe another 60 to order a contract and then construction. We've allowed for 150 days of construction and it's probably going to take 60 days to get it back to MDQ for final approval once we get to that point. So you're looking at a 9 to 12

month period from start to finish uh going forward. Uh this is estimated construction and engineering cost uh 1.581 million on construction with about a 10% contingency uh engineering $171,000 for a total of 1.91 million dollars to date. Uh that's the latest estimate I've gotten together. Uh and hopefully it'll stay that way.

That's actually a lot better than you might be about. Some say uh some say almost twice that on construction. So um hopefully we'll get some comp good competition. Uh we got some local uh competition around here now that we can probably make these numbers uh work and uh we hope that'll be the case. Okay. All right, guys. Any any questions of Mr. Cunningham while we got our hands on them? All right. Well, thank you very much. All right.

And so, you're going to get those documents together and I'll put them in front of the board once you hear once we get them written for any cues that we can proceed. Right. I'm I'm assuming that uh closure cost is a cost share. Is that is that what we're looking at? Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm assuming that the closure cost, decommissioning cost would be a cost share. Yes, I well 5050.

Yes, if the ownership of the land is 50/50 the operations, but I wouldn't call I would not call this operation. We'll let those two work out whether this is operations or if it's land cost, but I would I would default to 50/50 on the land cost and and place itself. Um but we I think we also have an opportunity to take a look and see what else is available with the remaining um property out there. So I didn't realize that there was that much that was not a part of the either the the landfill or the brother site. So if you could I'll get you the acreage on that too. Yeah, that'd be that'd be great. I'll do a little exhibit for y'all.

How long do we have to I'm sorry. No, no, no. How long do we have to continue monitoring and what would those ongoing costs over the next 30 years look like?

That a little bit just because the last few years when we have been when it's been closed um in 2020 we had a cost of $851. In 2021 we had a cost of $582. So basically it's the it's the engineer who's putting together that annual report for us and then I just just sign it electronically and that's it. Now if they come out and want to want to visit uh then probably there's a little more engineering to go with it just so that he would visit you know he would go with them and then show them whatever it is they needed to but basically it hasn't been an inordinate amount of fun years. Uh, a lot of these I'll say this, a lot of the sanitary landfills that were closed out like has been done at that landfield already that were closed out back in the ' 90s, early 90s because subtitle subd regulations that went into place and made everybody go to a municipal landfield for municipal waste. Some of those that are closed have got trees standing on now in other other places and other cities and counties. Uh I say that to say that I don't know what kind of monitoring you'll be seeing. Uh we're at a point across the state. uh where cuz these rubbish sites were put into place back then to help offsets I guess some of that cost of having to take way so far away like the Golden Triangle versus trying to handle your rubbish locally and be able to put it in your own landfield and have that savings. So, we're seeing the closures, you know, those lives like this one have been lived out or either their decisions been made to get away from that side of things, that business. And so, we're seeing more closures across the state because either running out of room or they're doing, you know, they're closing the site all together again for not wanting to be in that business. Um, but

what the main thing on closure that you're looking at, um, once you get grassing established and you're you're maintaining that, you're you know, you're probably going to have to fertilize, reseed every so often. Make sure you're not getting bare spots that you losing that vegetation. You start having erosion problems on that cap and you lose that protective part of that protective barrier. uh in part of that, you know, with those erosion problems that can happen. Um so if that were to happen, then that's going to act that'd be something MDQ would say, "Hey, you need to fix that and and get that back." And what they would probably require is is whoever did it, they would just want some some uh testing to show that it was put back to what what was approved when it was closed. as far as uh the permeability is what the main thing that's just making sure you've got that that barrier where it's not it's compacted and it's it's uh creating that uh uh permeable layer that water won't penetrate it get down below it

is it did you say how long this commitment would be that I miss I don't have a that's one thing I was talking the mayor about that I want to get a good uh answer from MDQ the regulations. I don't remember them saying they're identifying rubbish sites class one and class two as to what what time period they're going to expect. Uh they tend to if it's if it's not broken out like that or defined in detail, most time they're going to lean back towards what they're already doing with municipal landfields and that's 30 years.

Right. Vice Vice Mayor, I'm sorry. Thank for the recognition, mayor. Um, mayor, in looking and observing in this presentation, I see that the overall cost is $1,910,000 in the honorable um chairperson of the board of supervisors asked the question, uh, is the cost sharing going to be 50/50? What I would like to see as a member of our board, um, as soon as possible, given the the, uh, very substantial amount that is going to require from the city, I'd like to be provided with a copy of our um, budget that would um, clearly inform all of us as soon as possible as to the available funding um, that we going to have to pay for this because we have a a very enormous amount of needs in our city now and we often look when the money's not there till millage increase. So I'm very hopeful that we can get this information very soon uh given that this is a cost share and obviously with this on the agenda today there must be some urgent need to move forward but 1.9 million almost put us at a million dollars. So, I would like to be provided with a copy um along I'm sure the other members of the board that they'll speak for themselves, but I'd like to be provided with a copy of um any and all available funding sources so we can um consider this very prudently and conservatively as we look at our many other substantial needs, including our needs that I'm often tasked with and called about in our 22 annexation. And every time I turn around, I'm getting a call about annexation needs, areas that were were brought into the city uh involuntarily. So, I would like to see this budget as to our available funding source uh as

soon as possible. Vice Mayor, um I want to recognize Alderman Sister because cuz she is obviously a budget person that can give you the information that Sure. Who whoever has it? I just need it. So, really good news, Vice Mayor. Okay. Go ahead. If you remember, we um when we closed the land the the the landfill, we um set up a landfill remediation fee on our sanitation bill. We've been escrowing that money through the years. And so that has grown to the point that I believe our share is covered. And and me recognize. Yes, sir. Yeah. I just want to be um aware of that and that needs to be said because you know I don't get I'm not privy to the information on a daily or weekly. I don't I'm not a member of the budget committee

so I need to know because I'm when I'm faced with because I don't have any appetite for any mill increase me yield. Thank you. Um I I wanted to just clarify um you have said rubbish you know a couple of times that that's what that bill is. Could you give us like the definition of what is out there just for

uh there's a list of things that you can put in a class one rubbish site. Um, class two is is more towards uh just demolition type material, rubble, brick, concrete, uh things like that. Uh when you get to class one, you can put some other things in there like uh asphalt you want to get rid of or some plastics. But what what that uh uh and there are some plastics out there from some of the local industry here that that's happened over the years. So, uh, the majority of it and of course vegetation like limbs and grass clippings and things like that, stumps and and so, uh, so that's the majority of what's out there is is some plastics, uh, concrete, brick, and u vegetation type debris.

All right. Anyone else? Anyone else? All right, Mr. Penn Cunningham, you're off clock. No. All right. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. All right. Thank y'all. And for and for the continued work that you're doing many years. All right. Y'all take care. Thanks.

Um and so not to be doing this, but but Wayne and I sit. Okay. Opportune moment to leave. Um Wayne and I had discussed and and I and I tend to try to watch your board meetings, your supervisor meetings. Um and one of the things that I know that y'all are looking at is the uh potential expansion uh to use planning and zoning and do building inspections. make. And so one of the things I thought about and I think uh supervisor Howard and I, President Howard and I and Supervisor Trainer and I have talked about off and on over the years is how we might collaborate on some of the expertise that we've got that might be of use to you guys. And so we obviously have building inspectors and we have um planning zoning person. So, I thought what I would do is suggest that you know as y'all move forward with this concept that we would be um happy to be able to help if possible um without y'all staffing up necessarily. It depends on what's, you know, what all is going on. Um because you do have a lot of development that's going on both to the east and to the west and certainly some to the south. And so depending on how far out you decide to draw that that area, um which I think y'all are still considering what you're going to do with that. So, I'm not doing anything other than just saying that this may be an opportunity for us to look how we can collaborate with you or assist you in um fulfilling some of the needs that you might have. Would you all take that into consideration with the um Squatter, not Squatter anymore, Willingham and Associates, I believe it is now.

That's correct. So that was that was all this was intended to be was to have that that potential conversation or or express that ability or willingness to share that those particular needs with

Well, I mean, as you as you mentioned, we've we've certainly well, one, we we're in the in the middle of updating our comprehensive plan and uh involved in that we've often talked about over the years looking at a buffer zone and that the area just outside of the city limits but still within touch of the city where city services could be could could be uh offered out out in that buffer zone and those are areas that's that's pretty densely populated and um you know would would be some bleed over from the from the city into those areas. So, we we've talked about how we might be able to partner with the city possibly and and look at um using some of your services for some of your codes and and uh code enforcement type things of that nature. So yeah, this is a conversation that we've had. Um, you know, we've just sort of briefly talked about it on several occasions, but um I think the possibilities are there and I think the board has the appetite to to delve into this, take take a little deeper look into it. Well, I just knew that, you know, if you drew a half a mile or you drew a mile, whatever you might draw to to make that determination of y'all are going forward that I wanted us to be able to say that we can we can help where possible on that because obviously it's one of those things that um at some point in time will probably end up annexed into the city, you know, 100 years from now or whenever. Um so it's it's just seemed like a a smart way for us to at least communicate the partner about it if y'all decide to do that. And if you don't, then no harm will file. So just offering that as a as an opportunity.

Absolutely. Um and then back

stay. Um, and then also the the jail issue, which is I guess the big the big elephant in the room was uh I'm I was made aware by conversations with um Mr. Carpenter um and as well as Sheriff Phelps and um our own understanding of the jail being quite mature and in need of maintenance pretty regularly and and uh some more offices and some more space. And I make no secret of it that I have always wanted to get the jail out of our central business district and out of downtown. Mr. Robertson and I, Representative Robertson and I have had this conversation on for 20 years, 20 plus years into how we might make this happen. And so, um, since the jail seems to be reaching a point at which I believe is is a maintenance issue and it's a space issue and it's and it's aging, I had thought that perhaps um that might be another opportunity for us to consider how we might partner to do that. And so, this was an exploratory opportunity to me for how we could conceivably partner to um get a new jail that serves the city as well as serves the county. Obviously, we we um use beds in that jail, and that jail impacts our downtown and our central business district. And our central business district is starting to become um much more economically viable. We're seeing um land and property turnover and look like it's going to become residential as well as um commercial in that very corridor where we're talking about. And so the highest and best use to me for some of that simple business simple business district property is not is not a J. And so I'm just being straight up. Um I would really love to see something along those lines change so we can go to height and best use in that area

particularly when your needs when county needs are um are eminent. I believe am I seeing your hand? You are seeing my hand. Yes ma'am. Please feel free. I'm I mostly wanted to say that I took the opportunity to tour the jail um last week and um those floors sure are shiny.

Those and it smells good too, but I understand that was just because we were visiting. But um anyway, it it is an older building. It is um in in it. It doesn't function well now um for for the purpose that it needs to serve. it doesn't have um a lot of areas that they need to have in order to to be able to do um a better job of housing the the the inmates that are there. It it has reached near the end of its useful life. So, I think that that the county is smart to be thinking about um doing something with that particular building. I I don't think it's necessarily something that could be rehabbed. I think you're probably I think it would be not cost effective to rehab it.

You got the space to rehab it. Yes, ma'am.

Um, you know, I want to say we have, you know, we know at length, but here we discussed um, you know, where we haven't decided on anything. Um we have had discussions with you know people that are that dos and that do um that is going to be a huge undertaking. Um and I'm not speaking for the entire board but I think we've all discussed that you know we don't know whether we want a new jail or a justice complex and put jail on the back side you know of it. Um, we don't know. We haven't that that none of that has been decided because it's it's going to take a lot of money. Um, you know, to do it. It's got to be the correct place to where everybody feels comfortable where the jail, you know, jailhouse, wherever it may be, you know, will be. But I do think that is something that is on, you know, that that's definitely on the county's radar if I'm not if I'm not mistaken. We we certainly realize that the city and the county is joined at the hill and uh there there are um some projects that would be beneficial that we might could partner on. We we certainly our sheriff sheriff Phelps is he's here and he and he can he can definitely speak speak to the the condition of the jail and the age of the jail and the some of the challenges that they are having down at the jail. So I, you know, I've always said that it's it's it's good to start this conversation. You know, let's let's let's start talking about it and uh see, you know, where the conversation would lead. But but I would certainly uh defer to to our sheriff on speaking it because you know even even somewhere down the down the road if we partner and and uh

build a facility together there's still a lot of nuances and details that has to be worked out um with with the new new jail partnering on on a new jail. But the fact is the jail has been there a long time. Um, we've often discussed, as Supervisor Little said, um, the the the need for a new jail. Uh, some of our discussion has been where do we put it at? Uh, I think you looked at a location uh, that could possibly work. Uh, but we have we we've discussed it and I would defer to to our sheriff to talk a little bit about that if you don't mind.

Alderman Bone want to say something. Can I move here for a minute? Absolutely. That would be one of my question, you know, did Sher bring this to you? He needed a new jail. That be one that was one of my question. And uh if he ran out of space, he don't have enough space. How long did that have inmates that he question? And it's the third question. Where's the money coming from? Where's the money going?

Well, then and that and that's always the questions and that's the reason to have a meeting is to have that conversation. And I had the conversation with Mr. Carpenter. I had a conversation with Sheriff Phelps and both of them indicated that there is certainly a need and a growing need. Um, so that would be yes like to me if if you were having with with the jail the shortage of this and solve this feel like he would come to you like he would be implementing this program. He the one starting this he the one trying to get it started we get it started he would be the one getting started.

Well I think he's been to the county and I am I am if nothing else on I am certainly somebody who wants to try to get things done. So, you know, I kind of kick things in the rear to get them going if I can. And so, this is part of how I thought we might be. If anything, we might consider partnering and we might consider moving it along and helping them move along with it. So, that was that was my thought. And if nothing else, we've had a nice conversation here at the table. So, um Sheriff,

yeah, I'll I'll say a few more. The jail this this these this September will be 34 years old. The jail is work working fine now. It's no doubt that I've talked to my board. We have had discussions for several months now about we need to start making plans for a new jail. I don't know when it's coming. It's so much to look at. You got location, you got wind, you just like all the where the money coming from, but it's something that we do need to talk about. Um but the jail is functioning fine. the inmates are taking care of the office. But also that when the jail was built back in um 92, it was 10 road deputies. Now we've got 35. It's just the time is changing. But as of the inmates and everything that's going on, everybody's taken care of at the jail. The jail is clean. Um yes, we do have maintenance problems, but just like anything else, if you own something, you going to have maintenance. Um, but I know, like I said, I've talked to I've talked to my board. I've talked to the county administrator. The talk has been going on about moving forward within UJ.

Thank you, mayor. I have um given a lot of thought to this issue. Very important issue for our community. And let me just say, it's a matter of protocol and respect and honor and professionalism. Um, at this time, mayor, I'm just going to put it like it is. The sheriff is um the dual elected um law enforcement officer countywide and he's certainly in the eyes of voters um possessed a very enormous amount of law enforcement experience. He served as a deputy sheriff uh for many years and now longtime sheriff um honorable Dolph Bryant and other outgoing sheriff uh and he served as constable and he's also served as director of emergency management. He has a lot of experience and I am of the opinion that if this county needs a new jail, Mr. here and I'm I'm giving complete difference to you. You're the professional. You're the expert. You know, I'm an attorney. I'm going to stay in my lane. I cannot tell you or say to you, Mr. Sheriff, you need a new jail. You know whether or not you need a new jail. You there with it. That is your duty that you've been charged with by the qualified electors of this county and you've won this position uh in a in a very large way. Uh, I am of the opinion, Mr. Sheriff, that um we in my opinion should wait until and unless you give that announcement. Um, if you do not give that announcement, then it is my opinion that we should defer u any further

conversation on this matter until and unless you do so. um you've given your brief narrative just a minute ago um about that the jail is fine, is working u and and and you're not you didn't say anything to us today that yes, we need to move forward with a committee. You didn't say that. You didn't say that we need to have a feasibility study. So, I'm satisfied with that. You know, I'm one that give difference to those who has that level of expertise, expert knowledge and who has the training and experience in the background. You walk that jail many days, you've been in that jail more than any of us can ever imagine. And uh and certainly if you um say that you want new jail, we would know that. And then u and then there is an announcement of a jail then the qualified electors have to then decide where is the funding going to come from. And a jail is going to call many many millions I would imagine. So, uh, and I would think that, you know, our budget in the city, in my opinion, based on my limited knowledge about it, is not going to have the available funding just to pay it out of general fund. You know, we have um we have a um a a high school that's being discussed and we don't hear much about it publicly about $120 million high school and that's going that's going to cost us a lot of money on the tax ro you know and the taxpayers are in my opinion from what I hear they are um they are burdened ownorously. They are tired and sick and tired and sick and tired of all these taxes. and I'm one of those along with my constituents. Now, uh but if you are the pen and you're the Mr. Sheriff and you are dying, so I think that unless this honorable sheriff says he wants us to move forward, we need to

cease the discussion. He's the top cop in our county. He was elected from all the 21 how many precincts, Mr. Board President? 21 22 22. Yeah, he was duly elected sheriff. We need to give difference. The sheriff has not come before us and say, "Well, Mr. Honorable mayor, honorable members of the st board of ali we want a new jail." He just gave you the report. And so with that report, you know, we don't there's no need to to develop a committee today for the relocation, construction, new jail. The sheriff's not asked for that. Why are we going to play sheriff? We don't have one sheriff in this county. And Mr. sheriff and I'm sure that if this come forward then that's going to be a plan. Then what the cost going to be is going to be in the millage increase. Can we afford a a 30 or $40 million um jail and then $120 million more or less high school out there on lease land at Mississippi State University that we don't own. We got to make some decisions in this in this in this city. And and and and the taxpayers that I represent war six they have told me said vice mayor we are tired of these millage increases. we don't want you to vote for another one. I said, "Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. I'm a servant. I know how to listen. Pay close attention. I'm an old school lawyer, old school citizen. I understand and know how to be quiet and share what I'm told and give instruction. I came from old school. That's how we were taught in my family home. You you follow instruction. When when the when the people who are responsible talk, then you have to be quiet and listen." You understand how it works, Mr. Supervisor?

Absolutely.

And so, Mr. Sheriff I give complete difference to you and if there is not any indication from you then we need to just adjourn this meeting and go home this last one on the agender I want to thank you for your leadership and I work closely with you when you were sheriff I had cases with you shown professionalism you shown pride and and and you and you understand this city and you understand this county you work with a long time sheriff honorable Doc Ryan who knows the city in and out and you got a lot of experience under him and I know that because as I'm an officer of the court I'm an attorney. I've done a lot of the sheriff I've done a lot of criminal practice and cases down there and I respect that and his role and his position but we don't need to step out here today and establish a committee and if we do what what's the rationale when the sheriff is not asking for this? So hopefully that we'll just uh uh not take an action on this and wait to hear from the sheriff if he decides to be heard from. Mayor yield. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Well, let me just say that it is my opinion and I certainly respect yours. That there is more to it than simply jail. There is the city itself. There is our downtown. And all of that is an important element to who we are as a city and who we are as a county. And so I do not think that um initiating this conversation is inappropriate or out of line and particularly given the fact that I did have conversation with both Mr. Carpenter and um Sheriff Phelps as well as um Mr. Robertson and any number of others off and on over the years. So while it you may not be ready to do so um I do think the beginnings of having this discussion are entirely appropriate because it is more than just about a jail. Um it is about our community. So more

I think and mayor I I appreciate that because I do know that that discussion has been going on for a long time and I think everybody at this table agrees that it probably you've run out of room if nothing helps and the countyy's growing and hopefully we don't have to lock up many more people but probably will. Um it was just one of those things as a we're here to help. What can we do? And that kind of goes back to with the code enforcement stuff. learn from our mistakes if y'all choose to do that because we've made plenty and that way we've gone before y'all. So, we're here to help. We want to kind of get to where we can work together and on projects and going forward. So, I do appreciate those conversations about the jail though because that is what's future the future of our downtown. and and and I'd like to um say that um I heard sheriff felt slightly differently saying that that things were working but but that there were problems in the foreseeable future in terms of growth programming the kinds of things that need to happen with within the jail. um whether it's a city county discussion or just a county discussion, the first step is always going to be to sit down and and start to have a plan. It may not be implemented for 10 years, but you've got to start somewhere. And so by having those discussions, um I think I think you are more likely to get to the point that you need to be when you're ready to pull the trigger on on a jail. I'm going to use the um McKe Park renovation and the splash pad at McKe Park as as an example. When I ran for alderman in 2009, I visited with a little seven-year-old that lived in my neighborhood and told her, "Someday we're going to have a splash pad in McKe Park." And 20 years later, we have a splash pad in McKe Park. But you've got to start, you've got to have a vision for what you want, what you need, and

then and then start to put together a plan about how you're going to do it, how you're going to fund it, um who all is going to be engaged in that process, that sort of thing. And so I think I think it's an appropriate discussion. Would prefer that the city and county could have that discussion together, but at a minimum, it should be a county discussion. So

um I would like to say one one other thing. You know, like I said before, the county has been proactive on on this. It has just been a kind of discussion just, you know, about it, you know, since I've been on board. I think, you know, before we came in. So, it's nothing that we're being deries or any of the above that the county has. Um, we may not have been vocal and the sheriff. We're just being very methodical what we're going to do, when we're going to do it, and how we're going to do it. But that discussion has been had by the county and you know the people and we are always open to any land y'all want to dominate

you know we are open to that. Well, I I do think that we have opportunities um you know, again over the years from uh Supervisor Trainer, Supervisor Howard, uh we have had those conversations about doing things jointly and this just seemed to me once actually I was just doing some research and once I saw a statute that said municipal and county jails, I went well maybe there's knowledge unity here. But, you know, that is that is entirely uh on y'all. And if if you want to pull the trigger on it at some point in time um and that that is fine. We will, you know, from my perspective, I'm happy for us to explore how we might participate with you. So, that was the intent of this. Nothing more than that. And if we don't want to take up moving forward with any kind of exploratory effort, then that's fine with me, too. So, all right. Yes. Supervisor Williams. Well, I'm glad to know that I have uh great minds in the room today who can answer a question that have been uh pondered over pondered over for some time as to whether or not the jail has to be within closed vicinity of the courthouse. Um if so, where would that be and still be within closed vicinity of the courthouse? And I don't know whether that's true or false. I don't think there's any statuto language about it being near the courthouse.

And if so, if that is true, we would have to build an attachment to the jail to hear some of those criminal cases to be able to justify that particular requirement. And that might not be I'm just I'm just glad that I got enough people in the room today to be able to answer that particular question. Mr. Mr. Robson may be able to answer that, but in the statutes that I read, there was no requirement that the jail be near the courthouse. So, okay, I see him shaking his head.

There's there's no statuto issue with that. Now, there's logistical there's obviously logistical issues with that that as we choose to move forward with this. Um, I think there's been discussions about a jail. I think there's been discussions about it just as complex with a potential dynamic as uh Supervisor Williams said, but I'll defer to the sheriff and how he thinks about this.

Like I said earlier when we talk about the jail, I think we do need to be but I've been moving with my on we've been in discussion about a new jail. I mean I think it's time for us to start talking about it because of the age of the one we've got and of the employees that we have now. But also, you got to think about when we move it, when it comes court time, it's probably gonna take three or four transport guys, you know, be transporting my guy when we have court back and forth from the jail to court. So, there's so many things to look at. Like, as Patty said, everybody got we got to find some land. We got to find some money. But, I think the talk the talk is already here, you know, about a new jail, but it's just going to take time, you know, but I'm willing to do whatever. I've got policy. anybody wants to come see me, they're welcome to. But, you know, when you when you have something that's 34 years old, it's 34 years old. It's it's an older building and it's and it's, you know, like I said, we keep we keep it up the best we can do everything that the inmates, the employees, everybody's taking care of it at the sheriff's office. Um, but we have had a discussion. I just want to let you know the city you know we have as a county we have talked about you know a jail county administrator and and the supervisor so we know you know it's probably going to be something here in the near future where we start moving forward with that one but like I said it's just it's going to take money going to find some a good location so if anybody can help on money or location please let me know I'll take it to my board

that was kind of the thought about putting a group together to start looking that. But I'm I'm backing my way out of that and letting y'all do what you want to do. I'm sorry, President Howard. Oh, no, no, no. I'm trying. I was just sorry. I thought she was point Supervisor. Well, I was just I was just asking ask the question. Sheriff, how large is the jail now? Square footage. Why? I don't know square footage. I don't I don't know that for sure. I can find out. I can hold about 125 inmates as of right now. That's count the the new jail and the old jail. That's the one across the street and the new one. What's your average? My average is around probably 905

and I think we can talk about maybe 175 was you know that you think about how to start at looking but this is just talk you know we were talking the other night. You mean tell me the the population inmate count? Oh if we did a new jail. Yeah. How many beds like he's got like now like you know 125. We're thinking, well, maybe if it's new and start with 175 with and build it to where you're able to add on very easily, you know, um to it, you know, we were talking about not. Well, I'm I'm thinking about square footage. I thought I'm thinking mayor residential square footage to build here and start with what about $200 square foot? I'm just uh more than that. And talking Well, actually,

uh the high school vice mayor that you were talking about a few minutes ago, uh Mr. McGee, Dr. excuse me, gave us an update at the partnership uh board meeting this morning about it and they were moving they were moving forward with it and they were in the neighborhood of what did we say? $400 a square foot. Okay. Something like that for the school, but that's a much Warren County is building one building a jail at $700 a square foot. I'm sorry. Warren County, they're in the process of building one now at $700 square foot. We can cut that a bit, but okay.

Hey, I don't know. But now one of the things I wanted to to bring up and of course I think that's important and I would support you know establish a committee because I think in Lee County it's taken them about 10 years uh to get where they are right now. This is a $97 million, you know, but I know Johnson and we don't understand the political dynamics behind that. But mayor, are you all aware the inmates that the municipal that are housed in the jail right now? You are aware of the new legislation that's coming out that could possibly cause the city and the county to renegotiate the cost of housing a municipal prison.

Yes, I'm I'm aware of that. I know it's gone back and forth a couple of different times, so I don't know where it is right now, but I know that it's in discussion. I think uh it looks like if it passes because you know a lot of things could change. It's going to set a floor for housing municipal inmates at $25 a floor. Now there's no ceiling but there's a floor.

And I a lot of my colleagues uh in other places tell me about the the amount that most cities and counties have negotiated now is not sufficient to cover the cost of housing municipal inmates. And so if if it's different here in Starville, we would be probably one of very few, but I'm thinking it's probably about the same. So I think we probably need to look at some kind of discussion on I don't know how many how many inmates, city inmates do we house varies dayto day, but we haven't sheriff Phelps is going to send us a daily report. Okay.

And I know there's some discussion between when it becomes a city inmate, then when it goes over to a county inmate. So, and I guess that would be a source that we need to be looking at because uh I'm just using H County for an example. I know they get so much from Jackson and I think it cost them 60 to send the the prisoners to somewhere else to get them housed and so I don't I don't know whether we're in that same dynamic or not, but I'm sure we're running in a in a deficit I guess at certain at some point.

Well, yes, I am. And my end would be that of course we as our part of our animal taxes we're also paying for the support of the jail. So just to give a little bit of perspective but you know that's part of the reason for the discussion in the first place is because you know from a jail perspective we use it too. So you know how could we partner so that it makes sense that whatever proportion we use is part of a proportion that we potentially pay for. So that was part of my reason for considering this as a opportunity for us to have this discussion. Yes, ma'am.

And and we've talked a lot about how many prisoners and beds and all that sort of thing, but one of the things that I took away from my visit and from talking with um um Sheriff Phelps and Captain Word was that that the the ability to treat prisoners in the way that we really should be is they just don't have the space for it. They have very limited visitation space. they um don't have any space for uh GE classrooms, for a chapel, for uh programming like that. So, the the jail reflects the times that it was built and between that and the population growth, it's it's really nearing the end of its useful life. So,

well, I think this the it's been established the fact that that the jailer is is nearing its end of life. Uh, and mayor, I I I appreciate you want to have dialogue, and that's that's what I thought it was was going to be today, just a dialogue, just just to to talk about it. But as you all can see that we have had extensive conversation about with with our sheriff and and uh a county administrator and the board, you know, we're we're fully aware that that the year jail is nearing nearing it its end of life. Uh, I guess to uh, Vice Mayor Perkins point is probably the official way to kick this off would be our sheriff come come to the board of supervisors and and uh, you know, make a presentation and let us know that it's time for us to move to the next phase and that's that's probably uh, establishing a committee, start to do a feasibility study and then we come together again and and and uh have this have this meeting. So, you know, again, I'm I'm very appreciative of of having this dialogue. Uh but again, maybe the official way to do this would be our sheriff come to the board and and uh let us know that he would like for us to delve into uh putting together a committee and starting a feasibility study. So,

certainly difference to you guys. It is it is certainly yours to do. This was just an opportunity for us to say, you know, if you decide to move forward, I think there may be some support for us being of assistance to you in some in some kind of way. And we certainly do appreciate that. Again, I we're joined at the hip here. Yes, sir.

Second. All right. Thank you very much. All those in favor say I. All right, we already done. Thank you so much.