Town Council - Regular Meeting

begin with a invit invitation. Let us pray. Heavenly Father, thank you for uh just allowing us to be here to serve the town, serve the people of the town, and uh I just hope that you give us the wisdom to make uh good choices tonight uh to listen and do our uh citizens proud. Uh I would like to ask that with the nation facing uh difficult storms and people uh suffering because of that that you put your hand on them tonight. In these things I pray. Amen. Amen.

To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. call the meeting to order. Um, we'll begin with public comments. Um, anybody from the audience have a public comment that they didn't sign up for yet? Jeie, you have one.

Okay. How are you tonight? I'm good. How are you guys? Good. So, for the conditional reasonzoning subcommittee um topic for tonight, I was just Could you put the microphone down? Yeah, pull it down, please. Sorry. Just state. Um and your name. Oh, Jeannie Lindsay. I know it.

5639 Anglec Court. Um, I was just wondering about the conditional zoning subcommittee um, topic for tonight and I was wondering if we could um, potentially preserve the ability for the public to be aware of these meetings and for maybe uh, even if there's not public comment opportunity for us to be able to listen to them and have that publicized. I remember that during Stinson Farms when the development agreement process was going on. Um it was it seemed helpful to have a lot of public input early on in the subcommittee meetings that that particular case had about four different subcommittee meetings going on before it came to the town council. And during that time quite a few concessions were made um agreements were made um like maybe 11 or so uh before it came to the town council. and I felt like it was really helpful to have public input uh through that process. So, I'm wondering if that could be built into the conditional zoning subcommittee topic that you're talking about. And um I'm not really clear on why the sub why the development agreement process would be reduced to below 25 acres and then um and I mean to only properties above 25 acres and then potentially optional either. I felt like that was a really positive process that we had in place. So, I wonder if something else could be done instead of doing away with the development agreement process. Thank you.

Thank you.

Anyone else have any comments?

Good afternoon. Uh, good evening. Joe Horvath here, 719 Donagle Court. Uh some of us were wondering if we could please get um a meeting with NC DOT as it relates to uh traffic studies pertaining to um Stevens Village LLC and that project and any of its proceeding projects uh that are associated with that ahead of any vote on um the conditional zoning request that is um before us. Um, and then related, but I guess tied to all projects, and I think you guys are going to talk about this a little bit tonight, but um, wanted to see about how can we get information about these proposals much earlier than when we currently get them. I think by the time a community meeting or any other kind of formal vote is heard, um, so many meetings have already happened and the train is too far down the tracks for really anything to happen. So, uh, wanted to see about what we could do as a town to have much more public awareness of these proposals, uh, before it's too late, I guess. So, thank you for considering.

Thank you, Joe. Any other comments from the public? Seeing none, we'll move on to the next item, consent agenda. How's the council feel about the consent agenda? Mr. Mayor, I move that we approve the consent agenda first. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was wonder, but

yeah, I was want to know if we could pull the conditional zoning subcommittee policy out. I mean, ideally, we don't typically approve policies with within the consent agenda, and I just want to make sure that nobody's got any questions about it. I mean, I'll just throw it out there. Well, I believe since somebody has uh got a question about it on council that it does it automatically come out. Someone wants it removed from consent. Yes, sir. So, his motion just drops. He already made a motion. I'll withdraw my motion. That'll work.

Didn't get a second. All right, that one comes out and we'll make that um right after the audit report, but I'm going to I Oh, I would highly like our council to say let's move the audit report before the uh the uh resoning one so we can get the auditor out at a decent hour.

I move that we move number four audit report to number three um and me move number three to number four for the agenda. Wait a minute. My understanding is is that we would just approve the consent agenda. No, without the without the conditional zoning, right? And then we would go into the agenda approval. Right. Good catch. Okay. I missed having my man attempt nudge me. That's okay. Did something out of order. It's okay. Um, consent agenda with that change of pulling the the conditional zoning out, leaving micros surfacing in. How how goes the council?

I move approval of the I move approval of the consent agenda. Got it. I'll second. All in favor? I I Thank you. Thank you, Stephen, for the catch. Now we move to agenda approval and we've got conditional zoning sliding down to right below the audit report. We've got the um the uh item three sliding down to item pretty much five 4 A. Any other changes? And then is the conditionals zoning subcommittee 9A or are we adding because aren't we pulling it? So we have to discuss it as a agenda topic.

You mean u Oh, I was going to put that right after the um So it would be 4 A. 4 A. All right. Okay. Yeah. And then you're going to move three to up or down to um four basically switch three and four. Okay. Switch three. Four and 4 A. Okay. I move approval of the agenda with the changes as mentioned. Second. All in favor? I I unanimous. Thank you very much. All right. Now I got this right. The audit report is up. Good evening.

Good evening. Welcome back. Thank you. I see some new faces.

My name is Emily Mills and I'm a partner with DMJPS, formerly Pottering Company. and I'm pleased to appear before you this evening to present the town's financial statements as of June 30th, 2025. I want to thank you for allowing our firm to provide this service for the town. And I also want to extend thanks to Jesse, Mary, and all of the town staff that helps us gather the information that we need to complete our audit. Our independent auditors report issued an unmodified opinion on the financial statements of the town as of June 30th, 2025. An unmodified opinion is the highest level of assurance that we as independent auditors can issue. The report states that the financial statements present fairly in all material respects the financial position of the town as of June 30th, 2025. This is commonly referred to as a clean opinion. In addition to the independent auditor's report, we have also issued a group of reports on the town's compliance. These reports are found in the compliance section of the financial statements, which is towards the back. They deal with the town's compliance with government auditing standards in addition to compliance with federal and state programs with various laws and regulations. We noted no findings on the major programs we tested or on the financial statements this year. The financial statements were submitted to the local government commission, the LGC, on February the 10th, and we received review confirmation from the LGC on February the 13th. As part of the submission process, the LGC collects data and generates benchmarks for units. If the town does not meet any of these benchmarks, a response to the LGC is

required. And there are no such required responses for the town this year. And I think these performance indicators were yes, they were provided in your packet here. Um, again, I'd like to thank the town for the service and happy to answer any questions you may have. Um, I don't have any questions. LGC gave a super clean bill of health. They just they do a like a re cursory review and they had no comments. Good.

Seen a lot of our peers are on that list or not a lot enough. Yeah. Hats off to finance staff. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks all. It's a it's a big request on them to go through audits. Yes, absolutely. They're essential to do that. It's a all alear approach. So, it is. Yes. Any other questions, Lori? No, I'm good. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Next up is the uh conditional zoning subcommittee policy.

Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot of questions. I just wanted to make sure that everybody was okay with it just simply because I mean it it is effectively a a complete rewrite. And one of the things that I actually did have some questions about was um and this is just food for thought for we had we had a meeting and we kind of came out of there and I kind of gave my summary of what I thought when we had that meeting and uh and then we were at another meeting and we did things differently in that meeting from a committee standpoint. And so my biggest question was is like should we tighten up this process so that there is you know a kind of a given set of deliverables out of each committee meeting like and and this comes from when we first set up the committee meetings. we used to first thing we would do is appoint a chair for each committee and it was the and it was that person's responsibility to kind of put together some notes and actually send those notes out after the committee meeting was finished and then what I've found is over time we've kind of not doing that process and then also it seems like there's a there's a question on if we want a second meeting whose responsibility is to to call that second meeting and how that should work. And so it just to me it felt like there might be some opportunity there to tighten up kind of what our expectations is coming out of a committee meeting. That that was just my thoughts, but I'll leave it there. if I remember correctly um and and maybe we could ask Max about the um procedure for how we ended up with with this change was that um we're having the

subcommittee meeting ahead of the neighborhood meeting so that um when questions would arise in that first neighborhood meeting was so that we could be better prepared to answer those. I believe that's why we chose to do that if that's I think there was I think there was a few things that we cleaned up. I mean, it's part of I mean, this it was rewritten, but I think there was like three things that were cleaned up. Don't quote me on that, but but yeah, I think that was kind of one of the more drivers. And then I think like the last one we had, we talked about 5:00 versus 5:30 and trying to make sure that we didn't conflict with other programs. So, but

Well, Max is going to come up and explain a few things for us. Yeah. I'm just pulling up what's in the packet, but I'm here for questions. Um, it was just a directive out of your retreat and I rewrote the entire thing, but essentially it says the same thing and just made it clear policy. So, um, just for example, um, there were five main things that were changed.

Um, so moving the subcommittee to the first meeting and that was based on council's uh, directives. Um, it kind of what happened over the time is we had the neighborhood meeting first for the public and the council was getting comments and emails from the public and they didn't even know about the reasoning. Yeah. Um, so we wanted to make sure that was put first. Um, ever since I was I've been here since 2021, I've never appointed a chair. So I'm that's new to me, that meeting subcommittee. And it's also not written in the policy.

Okay. So, um, they were, how they were described to me from my first understanding is they were supposed to be informal, uh, conversations between the public, I mean, sorry, excuse me, from the developer and the council without the public there, without the pressure just to kind of have an open dialogue to kind of see what the development was about. And this is a policy that's not required by our ordinance and not required by our state statute. Another change, so I didn't make that clear in the in the change,

right? um other for the internal procedure guide. Um and I also wanted to make sure that it was clear that we'd have to follow open meetings and public record law records law. So we do record those meetings. Um meetings in the past prior to me starting and things like that sometimes were not recorded as well because it's not part of the they were not part of the open meetings. I didn't say that and state that. I wanted to make sure that was clear so this is could be legally defensible. Um and I also wanted to provide clear rules regarding scheduling as well. I have a lot of um challenges getting uh scheduling getting those meetings scheduled. That's actually takes up quite a lot of time to get schedule subcommittees for to get you guys to come out. And um

who do you have the hardest time getting a hold of? Don't answer that question. Yeah. Um, and I also wanted to make sure that the mayor had the flexibility to attend if we want because it's sometimes difficult to get even one member to agree to attend these meetings. Uh, so this is a council requested policy and I'm having very difficult time even uh following them following the policy. Okay. The new one, huh? You're okay with the new one. You just wrote it. I am okay with the new one, but essentially it says the exact same thing. I just tightened up a lot of the language and I added those few things that I just mentioned. As far as the chair, I don't know if we have to formally say there's going to be a chair, but maybe the um

the council district rep is Yeah. can informally be the chair. I don't even know what he or she would be doing, but you know, just Yeah. Well, this is a policy and council if you want whatever you want on the policy. So from right that

from your point of view I mean like I know when we have these meetings it seems like either you don't get any feedback or you do get feedback and like I guess just an open question here to you is what would you prefer? Or would you prefer that the council the members that were on the committee provide you one uh kind of consolidated feedback or just kind of go back to you directly for questions or kind of just

well what's helpful for the I think the developers do think it's helpful and people that also like residents that also apply for conditional zonings um it is helpful for them to know whether or not um you know they should change their site plan and change their proposal before it goes to the public because what happens is the public sees it first right now in our current policy and uh they don't know whether or not to bring to bring those changes and amend some of those things until they come to council. I want council to have an eye on it first, give them their comments and then bring it to the public to say, "Hey, you know, this is what we've discussed. These are some of the changes that we've incorporated." And then I can also give the public the feedback that, you know, council at the subcommittee meeting gave them negative or positive feedback as well because a lot of the public asked me what has the council uh thought about this process and I'm like, well, they haven't seen it yet. Um but they are not required by state statute to see it. Uh you're not required by state statute to see it at the um the neighborhood meeting is the first process currently.

What is required by the state process and then what do our neighboring towns so do what's their process? I mean there's all subcommittees like and different wording for that. Uh some some municipalities have different wordings for subcommittee. They have all different random types of committees. Sometimes they have two on twos, different types. What does Indian Trail do?

Um, Indian Trail and Wingut do what's called like a developers workshop. So, prior to the start of the meeting, like 15 30 minutes before, they come and present the project before an application's been submitted or anything to get feedback from the board to see is this something you all are interested in or not? because if you're not interested in it and it's not going to pass, then they don't want to spend the time and money do, you know, doing a detailed site plan and the engineer would be. So that's interesting. I thought that would have been like not legal because you' effectively be rendering a decision potentially outside of

Yeah, you're not giving a decision. You're just giving right feedback. Oh, I think this is greater. And right now our policy does it. We have them submit, then we give them feedback. Okay. Um, but what's required by our ordinance is just the neighborhood meeting, planning board, and council public hearings. That's it. This is a policy that's internal that we were that was drafted by uh the old planning director in 2020 that we've changed. This is our second rendition of it.

Okay. One of the things that um that I see with that three people, three members of the board are there at the subcommittee meeting and then the other the other three still don't get a a look at it in advance. And I'm I I don't necessarily care about having a meeting with a developer. you know, maybe the other three could just meet with you informally for, you know, 20 minutes, half an hour before a meeting so that the rest of the board understands what this is about.

Yeah. So, what I'm thinking is that there since there's a lot of comments on this more than what you know was brought from the tree, maybe it'd be helpful to kind of get your comments on it separately and I can bring it back for another rendition at a later date. I think that's probably a good idea. Um, what I'm finding is the and I rarely go to a neighborhood meeting because they see it before I do. And if I go or one of us goes, it frequently becomes a three-way conversation when it's meant to be a two-way conversation between the developer and the neighborhoods.

If we go, becomes that third leg and we get asked questions and we're not we're learning. That's the first time most of us have seen it. Supposed to be a learning but meeting. Yeah,

it works out differently because we're the board and we um it puts us in an odd spot because we haven't seen it enough. If we put the committee first, that means we have at least three of them have gone through and seen it in enough detail and we'll others will figure it out before the neighborhood the neighborhood meeting wherever it's going. Um, more than likely if it's a neighborhood meeting at that point, the board a board member or two can go and it's still not meant to be a three-way conversation, but at least the board member in attendance is informed. And right now, that's not our place to be informed, but we get informed at the next level and then the planning board meeting and then of course council meeting.

So, I like the idea of let's think this through just a smidge. Okay. Is everybody in agreement? And I'll I'll write up what I had. So, yeah, please uh let the town manager know and we'll kind of go from there. Thank you for all done on that.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, man. All right. Next up item, whatever it is, uh, Steven Schultz Lane RZ25.10.01. 01. All right. So, this is a general resoning application for RZ25101. Um this request uh was submitted to reszone this property from mixeduse 2 to multif family transitional. Um the property is located at 317 Steven Schultz Lane and is about a little over three and a half acres. Um the neighborhood meeting was held in November of last year and we had roughly around 10 residents come out. uh and their main concerns were traffic and um what could be built on the parcel if the zoning was changed. And then we did attempt a planning board meeting in December and in January, but were unable to meet quorum at both of those meetings. And so by state statute, if it hasn't been heard within 30 days, it can move on to council without um a recommendation from planning board. So that is what we are here tonight for. Um, I've got a picture of the aerial view of the property and also one from the culde-sac onto the property. Um, it winds around behind where that driveway goes. And then a little history on the property. Um, prior to 2018, it was

zoned R10 to match with the neighboring Woodbridge neighborhood, but was then reszoned during the townwide mass reszoning in 2018 and is now the mixeduse 2 zoning. Um, the applicant wants to reszone it back to a residential zoning. Um, and even though it's called multif family transitional, it does not actually allow multif family. It is only single family detached homes by right. Um, and this would also align it with the zoning that the Woodbridge neighborhood is currently. Um, and this shows you what the current zoning is for that property and the Woodbridge neighborhood below it. Um, you also saw a very similar image to this a couple months ago when um the property right beside it right here was reszoned to MFTt um off of Lawrence Daniel Drive and this property does match the future land use. Um it is the suburban single family neighborhood and it also matches our ID wild road small area plan um which is single family detached homes and staff does recommend approval of RZ25101 to reszone this property to multif family transitional. Um, it matches with both our small area plan and our future land use plan and will allow the least, I guess, the best transition from a neighborhood to the commercial properties that are behind this property. Um, and it'll also create the smallest impact on the Woodbridge neighborhood by only allowing residential properties or res residential development on that land instead of commercial development, which

is currently what is allowed. I've also g given you this chart um that shows the development differences between what the current zoning is and what the applicants um applied for zoning is. Do you have any questions? Yes. Yeah. Katie, with the uh existing zone or the current zoning, it could allow commercial development. Is the only access to that property through that neighborhood? Yes, it is. Okay. So, it would, you know, under its current zoning, it would could funnel commercial traffic through a residential neighborhood.

Yes. Yeah. anything that's in the mixed use 2 zoning. So like restaurants, bars, any of that. From the neighborhood meeting, concerns about traffic. Was that related to if another multif family or single family home was built on that property? Just like construction, not necessarily long-term uh trips through the neighborhood.

Um yeah, they had some concern about like if he u the applicant did want to build more homes on the land, like how many could he build? was this going to create, you know, like a whole neighborhood's worth of traffic going through this already existing neighborhood? Um, and we were able to um kind of help with those concerns by saying that the maximum amount of homes, if he did want to build more on the land, he can only have three additional homes on it because there's one home existing on the property and you can only have four houses served by a private road. So, you're saying only three new houses?

Yes. Yeah. He he could leave it how it is and just have the one house and he could add up to three additional homes on the property if that's what he decides to do. Okay. And the applicant is here if you have any questions specifically for him as well. Can you um tell me about the um multif family transitional? What else is allowed in there? It's just um housing. Uh yeah, it's only single family detached homes by right and then um like accessory structures that go along with that. No um no town homes, no apartments, no multif family of any kind.

What about the attached? You were saying you've said in this chart that um 16 attached units would be allowed. Um it's they're not allowed by right. They still have to come. It'd have to be a conditional zoning in order to have that attached. Okay. Okay. You you said a private road, a private drive, private um like driveway basically. Show them the map if you So basically Yeah. If you go back to that driveway, there have to be a branch off of that driveway to access other houses, right? Well, there's only one cut through or one uh cut in the road.

Yeah. So right now if like you could add more homes on the rear of the property, it would be this one driveway that served those additional up to three homes. Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't that just be an extension of the road that's already there versus a private road? Is that just I mean what makes that determination if you do? Um, I think partially is that it would be the developer or the land owner that would choose to keep that as a private road. Um, if it was built as like a public road, it' have to come up to town standards um, in order for the town to take over the road.

All right. Thank you. Any other questions? So, that's what would be the road. That's a driveway. The continuation. The driveway. Yeah. whatever. Okay. All right. All right. Before we go uh to the next step, I'm going to open the public hearing. Any questions for Katie? If any questions of the developer, could we hear from the applicant? Sure.

Just mainly want my property to match the I'm sorry. neighboring neighboring uh zoning. So, currently I'm the only one on south side of the creek that has this zoning except uh second portion of Doug Marsh's property that was currently reszoned. I think he held back about seven or eight acres in the back. That's still the same zoning as I have. The same zoning I'm trying to go away from. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions? Do you intend to build more on the property?

Um, I'm not I haven't decided yet, but um I talked to Max about what and that's what Katie I think right Katie Yes just explained. So I do have the information that it's possible but I haven't decided just yet. I do have one because I was trying to figure out how the if you did do the private road, how you would wrap it around that the house that's currently there or is there any idea thought that you would tear down that house?

No, that house would have to stay. It just would not justify the the you know, because that house was built in 2017, so it's a fairly new house there. Okay. Yeah. So, the house would stay as long as I'm there, it would stay. Is is the house that we see in the back, is that um the on that property on the property that we're reszoning? Yes. Looking to resone. Okay.

And where's their driveway? So, I had to put in that concrete driveway back in 2017. And on that aerial or Google street view picture, it's the one in the center. That's my driveway. So, there's one to the left that goes to that house. Then there's a big No, there's another one. I'm sorry. I think I pressed I went to the wrong slide. I apologize. So, that is your house? Yes. Okay. So that's his house in the picture. Okay. In the back. Yeah. In the back. Okay. Yeah. So like the private drive could connect around this side of the house there.

Okay. And if you could let me hold it. Right here is my entrance. So that Okay. All right. Connect. All right. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Are there any public comments about this project? Jeanie

Jeannie Lindsay 5639 Anglec Court. Uh I see this scenario happen a number of times especially along Stevens Mill where private residents have been reszoned to commercial and I'm curious to know about the tax implications for that. how many other folks don't realize perhaps that they've been reszoned and if they've been paying commercial tax all this time since 2018. So, I would definitely be in favor of him downzoning that if he would like to. And um I'm curious to know how many other residents are out there in town with this same situation, unfortunately. Thank you.

Any other public comments? Thank you, Genie. I'll close the public hearing. and the council can discuss or make a motion. I'll make a motion to approve RZ2510.01.

I will second the motion. All in favor? I. That's unanimous. Statement of consistency and reasonleness. I move that we accept the statement of consistency and reasonableness as um given to us by the staff. Would you leave read the read the f the request paragraph?

Okay. Daniel Deshenko is requesting a general resoning of the property located at 3017 Steven Schultz Lane identified as K case R Z25 uh 10.01 from MU2 mixeduse 2 to MFTt multifamily residential. Council recommends approving. Well, you guys say that. That's the motion. Yes, that was my motion. That's our We got a motion to approve. I'll second and a second. All All in favor? I.

That's unanimous. Thank you. Thank you, Katie. Thank you. Got a reasonzoning. Next up, microserving mic microsurfacing information presentation by slurry pavers. Good evening.

Hello. Uh at the last town council meeting, council approved the contract for slurry pavers to do microsurfing microsurfing throughout town. And as part of that contract, they're here to present to inform residents who are here as we had sent mailers out so they can learn about the process here. So we do have Tim Herps here from Slurry Pavers to give this presentation. Welcome. Good evening. Good evening. Hi.

Thanks for having me. Um some of you have heard this and some of you have not. So, we're going to review um every 3 to 5 years, uh engineering has you guys' roads evaluated, uh for condition, and then based on that condition, you choose which roads to pave and what roads to do maintenance on. Uh slurry pavers, white uh paving construction is uh or are maintenance contractors. So we're basically taking roads that are in fair to good shape that have seen maybe about a third of its life uh go away and now it's time to do something to it to reinvigorate it to extend the pavement life uh to maximize uh overall service life um very cost-effectively. Um so just to give you an example of uh what microsurfacing can do as far as cost is concerned is that you have asphalt which is still very expensive even though we're seeing uh the price of oil and gas go down price of everything else has gone up. So we can do 3 to three and a half miles of microsurfacing compared to one mile of an inch and a half mill and fill with asphalt. So that is the reason why the the town has moved in this direction to uh cover more miles for the same amount of money if not less. Um so I'm here to explain a little bit about what uh what we're doing. Um this will be our third year uh working with the town. Um the first two years were very successful. Uh and we hope to have another successful year this year. So we're going to be touching four uh subdivisions this year. uh the Spring Hill subdivision, the Courtyards at Matthews, Lakewood, and Morningside Meadows. Um three of those four are going to receive what the other two contracts in the previous two years have uh gotten, and that being microsurfacing. Um this year, Lakewood is receiving what we call

a cape seal. Um its roads are a little bit more cracked up uh than uh the other three. So, we need to do something a little bit more um insurance-wise to ensure that the microservicing that's going um down as the final writing service lasts as long as possible. And what we're doing uh initially is we're going to put down a chip seal. Okay? Some people know it as a uh tarin chip. Uh we're going to put that down first and weld all of the deficiencies, all the cracks together and then we put the microsurfacing on top of it. So, you're never going to see the chip seal. Okay. But it is a necessary evil to ensuring that the microservicing lasts as long as possible. So the road So Lakewood roads are a little bit bit in um worse condition we'll say than the other three subdivisions. So that's but still very salvageable. Um some people say why are we receiving this and not receiving asphalt, right? Um it's not time for asphalt. It's time to change the oil in the car. It's time to go to the dentist because our tooth hurts. It's time to put fertilizer on the lawn. It's time to seal our driveway, right? We're trying to preserve you guys' biggest investment in this town, that being your infrastructure. And so, that's what maintenance is all about. So, we'll get to what the product is. Uh I'm not used to toggling. So, basically, as I said, you guys have your roads rated. Uh we are in the business of taking care of roads that are in the green down to the word corrective, which would put us down to about fair. um probably down to you know somewhere between 65 and 70. So that's where addressing um these processes and where these four subdivisions fall are within that designation. Um what we're putting down is microservicing and it is a state approved specification. Okay. Um it is

number 420. uh it's been in the state for quite a few years and the state is beginning to use quite a bit of it. Um you guys reside within division 10 and they had a huge program in 2025 and they have another one slated for 26 and 27. So they're pretty excited about the product and uh you guys are probably one of the reasons why they decided to go that direction with the success here. Um this is a a graph just to basically show you on the DOT level how much this product is being used. Um with the city of Durham is our biggest local agency and they do somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 to8 million worth of it on an annual basis. So just to kind of show you the the breadth of it um just kind of a neat thing it the microservicing product or uh is being studied by North Carolina State University um to make it better. They've partnered with the DOT. They believe that much in it and they want it to grow substantially uh and exponentially in this state and they're trying to validate it by partnering with NC State. Kind of hard to see, but basically these are the components. Um, it is not asphalt. People are going to be like, "Oh my gosh, you're putting down brown liquid stuff with stone in it." And absolutely we are. Um, it is a water-based asphalt emulsion um that has been polymerized with a latex. So, I put this down on US74 out here. Uh, with all that traffic, I put this product down at the same thickness we're putting it down in your neighborhoods. So, you wonder why we're putting down 38 of an inch and expecting to last long. Uh, yes, we are. And that what makes it uh gives it that ability to do so is the polymer modification. Um, we're putting in granite aggregate with it. Um, some bread uh breaking and setting additives and Portland cement. It goes it all goes into a um mixing machine on the orange

machine and it paves on down the road. So, we are not relying how close we are to an asphalt plant. We make everything on board on top of the unit and we use the staging area just down the road here. Uh and we'll be in and out of your neighborhood neighborhoods uh probably within a couple of weeks of arriving. Just a quick look at the machine and it going down. Doesn't do it justice too much. Uh kind of pixelated, but everything's on, like I said, on board. Uh comes out the back of the distributor. Like I said, about 38 of an inch thick. goes down brown when those breaking and setting chemist.

I thought you were a chemist last time we talked. Um when those breaking and setting additives uh react and the water gets up out of it, it turns black and what you have left is your asphalt residual. So that is the final product which would be the microsurfacing. What we're going to be doing um is a uh a host of of um processes or uh prep work. We there are some failures out there, some base failures, and we're repairing those with conventional asphalt. We're going to cut them out and replace it with new asphalt. We're going to crack seal the remaining cracks, and then we're going to put the microservicing on top of it. Um the line striping um is part of the contract also. And we're going to wait a period of time before we put the new striping back down on top of it. Because it is a water-based emulsion, you want to ensure that the water gets up out of the product 100% before you trap it in. So that wait time is going to be 7 to 14 days before the striping goes down. You want to go the opposite direction. Um this is serving as our um community awareness or community outreach um with with uh hopefully some good questions tonight. Uh what we're going to do is I guess we're attending a meeting in March with the storm water as part of the contract. Okay. We're not going to attend a meeting. Um but we are going to have the neighborhoods posted uh 48 hours at least 48 hours in advance. Um it's going to have door hangers and there's going to be neighborhood signs put at the entrances and exits of each subdivision. I'll let you know how long we're going to be there, what times we're going to be there. on the hanger are going to be um contact information to the uh to the responsible person on the crew and there's going to be links to our website. So if you have questions about what the process is, you can go on watch videos um and it'll answer any questions that I haven't tonight.

Uh we will never close uh a road in in its entirety. Uh we will maintain one lane of traffic. Uh we will pave one side. It will go from brown to black. We'll wait about an hour, hour and a half, and then we'll flip-flop traffic. We'll put traffic on what we just paved, close off the other lane, and then we'll pave that. And then when it's completely done, we'll open it up. We'll take the cones off. When will you know we're there? When the cones go when the cones go out on the road, we're coming that day. Um signs will be posted in the rightway uh so you know that we're not uh we're parking there. Uh if you have to uh get out and we have just paved by your driveway, um we ask that you give us maybe 10 15 minutes to let the stuff uh react and break and go from brown to black. You can cross on it, get into the unpaved lane or the the cured paved lane and go. Um if you can't wait and you have somewhere to go and you drive through it, we just ask that you don't turn in it. Um but if it is marred, we can obviously put a patch on top of it and repole again bit pixelated but the picture on the on the right excuse me on the left here is uh the brown homogous looking we've already crack sealed um and then after those chemicals react the white get the water gets up out of it and it turns black and that's the final writing surface the I don't have a problem saying the worst that this looks is right when it goes down because there is no compacting mechanism with this there's not a roller falling right behind it or compactor right behind it like there is asphalt um because it's uh a chemical break and chemical cure. So the aggregates that are in there stand straight up. So when traffic gets on it when it's it lays down and it smooths out. So in about a month or so you'll be able to you won't be able to tell whether it's asphalt or microsurfacing. Um so it is a process but getting there uh sometimes is the tough part if people

haven't seen it before. So, excuse me. I'm sorry I'm late, but it'll take about a month before it smooths out. So, we'll get some complaints about it's noisy. It's not as it's it's they will they will say, "Oh, it doesn't ride like smooth asphalt." Doesn't ride like But it will. But it will. Thank you. Yeah, it is a process. All right. Thank you.

You'll see it smooth out in the uh the wheel pads first and then as people ride on it and after a month or so um they'll quit talking about it. But again, the goal of it is to this uh product has less than a 1% void to it. You hear people talk about air void in asphalt that you need that for it to breathe. This has no void to it. So, it's meant to keep water out. And that's what we're doing is we're pres preserving the underlying structure. Um you know, if we have a pilot car that's going to run the open lane, so the cars will follow it. Um, if there are any questions, there's uh a steak bed truck that's running traffic all the time with people that are available to answer questions. Again, just follow directions. Uh, pay attention to what uh which uh directions the signs are saying. Um, and then when it's uh when it's brown, don't drive on it. Cleanup. We um those that that aggregate I talked of sometimes in laying down the fines, the real fine will work themselves off just like asphalt and have a tendency to kick. You may see some residual in the in the gutter pan or laying on top. We will bring a uh vacuum truck uh back and sweep all that up at the end.

And that's about two weeks late, right? Two weeks later.

Yeah. We want to allow enough time for it to good and compact and and to get a back truck on there. Um, all hot surfaces in this neck of the woods have a tendency to mar with hot weather, right? Doesn't matter if it's asphalt, chip seal, and this um uh if we're we're this is actually we're going to be coming up we're going down to Hilton Head and paving first off um in April and then we're coming here right afterwards. So, we're going to be doing this early when it's not super hot. So, I don't think we'll have a lot of these issues, but sometimes if you pull out of a driveway and you do a hard turn in in hot weather, it has a tendency to mar itself, but uh you're not going to take it all the way down to the original pavement. I have no idea what that is. Get through this just to show you. Um, city of Durham, like I said, big program every year. Uh, what does it look like after two and four years? Um it just lightens up like it does over time. No issues. They are now we are now repaving 9-year-old microservicing in Durham. So that they believe in it that much. Um see the high high point does about a million and a half dollars every year. They do double course micros on their main drags and single course on the residentials. Down to Garner. Um, one of their key tools for maintaining their their values is get, you know, covering up more miles and keeping the good ratings high rather than letting it um, you know, mill and pave and let it fall and have a low number. They keep their number high by putting microservicing on every so often. City of Greenville, North Carolina patching. So, just giving you some examples of where we've been. Uh this is a double course micro going downtown uh

Greenville, North Carolina, uh Pit Street. Uh it's the epitome of of uh what a a good double course micro should look like uh in a very urbanized setting. So I'm I'm assuming But can you just say what is a double course double done twice? Yes, done twice.

Okay. you without getting too technical, they you have um so many pounds of of aggregate that's what it's weighed by not so much thickness. So you're getting 18 to 22 pounds on a single course on a double you're getting 40. So they may divide that 40 up, not 20 and 20, they may go like 16 or 14 and then the remaining amount on top of it. So yeah, you do go down the road twice, but it's a matter of what's needed, are we filling or what are we doing? What's the road need? and they make that determination before uh we start the project. Uh like I said, we're going down to Bufort County um and doing some um and and they do a lot of it down around Hilton Head and Bluffton and Bu and City of Bufort, Charleston County as well. So just to kind of show you examples uh for those who have never seen it um division 12 um they do it in four of the five counties Gaston Cleveland Kataba uh do a bunch of it. The reason why they've switched from doing chip seal to microservicing is the population influx. They have guys like me moving in from Ohio four years ago and they people don't want chip seal roads in their subdivisions. So they're getting away from doing chip seals and going to microservices. So, um, like I said at the onset, the, um, Lakewood subdivision is getting what we call a cape seal. So, if we have roads that are in this condition where it's too extensive cracking, uh, to go in and just crack seal and then put it down, we're going to go in first and put a chip seal down first. And this is a um, this is an HOA over in Morsville uh, called Bay Crossing. uh during COVID they were at a point where they were ready to turn over turn over this HOA or this subdivision to the DOT and the DOT said we need to take this up to a certain standard. Um and so they went out and got a quote to pave it and it

was $800,000 uh for just 25,000 square yards which isn't much. And so they waited a year they got $700,000. So they called me and said hey what can you do? We went in did some asphalt repair and we do what we we call a cape seal. We put down a chip seal first. Uh we don't have any curbon gutter out at Lakewood, so we won't have to worry about that. We're going to take the chip all the way to the edge and basically weld the road shut, all those cracks, and then we're going to put the microsurfacing on top. That is your cape seal. Um after um the asphalt repairs and the the cape seal, the the total price is 275,000 versus 800,000. So, uh, that community brought their, uh, roads up to a certain standard and then the DOT accepted them. So, now the DOT is responsible for everything thereafter. Just to kind of show you the the divisions that work with it on the state level. And then we've also created a council uh, for pavement preservation. We have numerous um, municipalities uh, myself and another contractor and a couple engineering firms. And we're basically we serve underneath the National Center for Pavement Preservation which operates out of Michigan State University. Um and we're just basically advocating for maintenance. Uh we uh we vet new processes and technologies and we are a uh a leaison to and work in concert with the DOT and I'm part of that board. So just wanted to uh present that to you tonight and open the floor up for any uh questions.

I do have a couple. Mr. Herbs, thanks for being here. Sure. um the slide you mentioned about it being studied at at NC State, can you explain kind of the the history and and um the when microsurfacing be started to become a more prevalent method versus using asphalt to resurface?

Yeah. Um the need for, you know, to answer your question, it it came about in the 1980s. Uh it came over from Germany. Um the same individual who created the uh thermoplastic marking actually developed microservicing over in Germany. Uh the reason being is that he had his thermoplastic markings on the road and the road itself in between the lines started to rut and he they he didn't want his wonderful lines milled off because that would um it' be a waste of money. So what he did is he developed uh microservicing and microservicing evolved from a product called slurry seal. Uh what they did is they took the slurry seal technology, added the polymer, added the braking setting additives, and I can put microservicing down multiple inches thick as opposed to a slurry seal. So what we did back to Germany is basically fill in those wheel ruts in between the thermoplastic markings and the road was preserved and it uh made it more safe. Um that technology came over to the states in the early to mid 80s. Um the polymers we have gone back and forth between synthetic and latex as to which one's the better one and more effective uh use of that product. Um and um we the uh the partnership with NC State uh was just came about last year and so it'll be a two-year study. Um it's about a $300,000 contract between the DOT and NC State. They're going to uh sample our stock piles. They're going to visit our laboratories. there. It's almost kind of uh backwards because NC State doesn't know a lot about micro, so they have to learn it first and then advise us on it. So, but we're willing to partner with them and and and make it the best possible. But yeah, they're just trying to um they've studied other they studied asphalt, they've studied crack seal, they've studied chip seal, they just wanted to add this to their repertoire.

You mentioned on one of your previous slides like a a 9-year lifespan for one of the the projects you had worked on. What's the, and I know the answer can vary widely, I'm sure, but what's the expected lifespan for folks who are going to be in these subdivisions where these are going to be covered?

Um, you know, a lot depends on the condition of the road. It's only as good as you put it down on top of. So, if it's in worse condition, you're going to get less life. Um, if we hit it at the more top of the curve, you're going to get longer life. So, to answer to your question, you're going to get somewhere between six to nine years. Um, if you amortize all that, the investment out, it's it's pennies on the dollar uh per year compared to doing asphalt. um the um the idea of doing a Cape Seal in the Lakewood community, I would look forward to probably 10 plus years, right? So, if we're doing double course microsurfacings, maybe even longer. Uh the city of Greenville, North Carolina has moved over to doing nothing but double course microservices on all of the roads, um residential as well as on their main thorough affairs because the thicker it is, the smoother it rides, the longer it lasts. So when microservicing decides it's done, it'll start to wear from the top down. So in the culde-sacs or in the radiuses uh where it intersects, those will wear first because you have the most torque and the most turning. Uh when you get to that point, you can remic microsurfacing and that's what we're doing in Durham.

Is there any oldactory component to the work? Is there a smell associated with it?

No, it smells like money. No, I'm just No, it uh No, it's it's and we talk about um in my elongated presentation I I have the the toolbox that you guys available to you. I think that the drawback to pavement preservation. There are too many tools in the toolbox and I talk about a host that are just not good. Um, and what you probably are referring to is like you go to a Target box store parking lot and you have a bunch of guys spraying black stuff on it sealing it and it's got a very offensive smell. This has nothing like it. Um, it's it is very it is it goes down about 95 100°. It's not going to burn anybody. It is built as green. Um, so a lot of park systems like it. Um, and uh, it it uh, it's not going to affect anything really ecologically, but moreover the anybody sensitive to smell is not going to have a problem.

How loud is the work? How loud? We just don't want to do it at night time. But I mean the if I had my continuous machine on a very long road, it operates at about 250 ft a minute. So it's a very brisk walk to keep up with. Uh, but it's not going to um it's not going to wake a baby up. And I know you you're you'll be giving us the website and and other information. What other common questions might we receive that you often receive about this?

When can I drive on it? Um, why are you doing this and not asphalt? Um, I think we've reviewed those answers tonight. Um, other than that, not too much. just uh I think a lot of times, you know, um it it just it didn't ride like I expected it to ride. Well, and then after about a month or so, it those it stopped. Yeah. Like um I did my neighborhood last um was that summer, Kevin?

Last summer and I got all kinds of complaints and sent a lot of them to Kevin. you know, I could explain the swirly lines, but you know, this whole process I couldn't explain. So, Kevin had to, you know, Kev had to explain a lot to them. But, um, they complained about the pebbles. There was no the noise. I didn't hear any complaints. I didn't hear any, you know, particular loud noises.

Um, the little pebbles and um, you know, when's it going to dry? I can't, you know, can't figure out the traffic pattern. And then after I would say a couple of weeks, I I got no more complaints, you know. They just Okay. Yeah, it is. It's fine. It's fine. It just looks like black top. It's, you know, beautiful roads.

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. I was going to tell you the three emails that I it it was louder driving on it. the surface of it was not smooth and so people complained that it didn't look as good and then that the debris that was kind of coming off of it was kind of laying up against the side of the road but that was before they come through with the sweeper and that's the beginning but yeah after a while

besides the the two main purposes in Germany that was uh invented was one as we talked about was the rut filling the other was actually for skid correction so the DOT uses this this particular product, they actually amp up or increase the size of the aggregate in it to promote or create friction. Um, so when we uh we have slick roads out there, we talked about the the density and and and lack of air vvoid that the l the le the the less airvoid you have, the tighter surface you have, the slicker it is. Um, and so, uh, Emily McGra, who is the director of operations for the NC DOT, she, um, has been at her wits end to have the contractors decrease or actually increase the airvoid to make it not so slick. Uh, and they're not listening to her. So, she's basically like, Tim, we need your product to go in and correct safety related wet weather accidents. And that's what they're using microservicing for. Uh, and we will intentionally bump up the the size of the aggregate for that purpose. And back to your point as far as smoothness that that's a reason why we would want to not have anything smooth.

Any other questions? Thank you very much. Appreciate you coming and presenting to us.

Next up, Aaron and the um Annexation 59 at Chestnut Lane.

Yes. Okay.

Thank you, mayor. Um, this is just the next step in annexation for annexation 59. Um in your packet you have a certificate of sufficiency which I'm required to do stating that the petition is accurate and sufficient. I have done that and um that is just presented to you tonight. There's no action there that you need to do. The next step in this annexation would be to um adopt a resolution uh setting the public hearing date for this annexation which we have set for March the 23rd. so that it can be adequate adequately advertised by state statute in the news. All that's required of council at this time is to adopt this resolution adopting a public hearing date.

Thank you very much. Mayor, I'll make the motion. This is my district and then we can maybe take questions if you have it. But I'll make the motion to approve a resolution adopting a public hearing date of March 23rd, 2026. Second. All in favor? I. Unanimous. Thank you very much. Brad, you want to add some comments? Did you? No. Oh, I thought you did. We to answer questions if you have any. I don't think there are. We We've seen this before, right? Thank you.

Thank you, Erin. Alex, planning board ordinance amendment. Good evening. At the last council meeting, uh the town council expressed the desire to ensure equitable representation from a geographic perspective on the town planning and zoning board. As a result, the town council also directed staff to draft a some options for the board to consider and we've done that tonight. Now you'll notice in the various options we also tried to balance another concern that the board expressed which was we don't want to tie the board's hands because we need to ensure that the planning board has a quorum. In fact earlier tonight we saw a project where that couldn't meet because of two planning board meetings getting cancelled because of lack of quorum. So, it's a serious practical matter as well. So, with that being said, I'm going to run through the three options. The board is not limited to each of the three options. We just didn't want to give you more than three because like ketchup in the grocery store, more options sometimes can feel overwhelming. So, the first option is probably the simplest of the three. It simply means that if there are multiple applicants

and you have a situation with there's one board spot and you have one of the applicants being from a district that's already represented on the planning board whereas the other applicant was from a district that was not represented on the planning board then the applicant from the district that was not represented would get priority. The second option is more holistic in the sense that it says just as a general matter, there should be no more than two members from one district or no more than three members from one neighborhood because sometimes a district can split neighborhoods. Again, as I mentioned before, the second option allows the council the right to wave the policy if it's needed to establish a full board and establish a quorum. And finally, option three, this is most modeled against the actual current town council structure. Whereas with the town council, excluding the mayor of course, it's made up of district districts, different districts around the town of Stallings to ensure geographic equity in that representation. And so with option three, it's exactly that, meaning that there's needs to be one member from each district represented in the membership. So obviously in that case, priority would be given to applicants living in districts not yet represented. on the board. And like the second option, if each district is represented, there may be no more than two members from one district or three members from one single neighborhood. But again, the council reserves the right to wave that in order to establish a quorum in the town council's judgment. So, those are

the three options for the board that y'all asked us to draft, and we brought those to you. And as staff, we're happy to to um answer any questions, but it's really whatever direction the board wants to set for your planning board. Thank you, Alex. What is the history of why we uh set seven as the membership of the planning board where there six on the council? Yeah, that's a good question. Um I believe there are seven on the planning board plus two alternates. And I don't know the history. Miss Cox, do you know the history of that? Okay.

Okay. Does the chair um vote on the planning board only in a tie? Only in a tie. Oh, okay. Then that matches the council setup. Sure. Mayor doesn't vote. There are seven of us at the table up here. Yeah. Six vote. So, the planning board is mimicking their current council setup.

I I also asked the staff to develop a list of current planning board members and what district they're in. And you can see that in front of you as well. You could see, I believe, uh, district 1 and district 4 are the two districts that are not currently represented on the planning board. This would not in any way disrupt the current planning board. This would be for future appointments. Correct. Yes. Yeah. What I would suggest is that um you would grandfather current terms in and then when new seats come up, then the ordinance would be considered in making those appointments.

I'm not yet making a motion, but just the rest of the council. I prefer option three. I think it uh clearly states the objective, provides sufficient structure, and allows flexibility for the council to make maintain a quorum on the planning board. I was uh maybe struck isn't the right word, but something has resonated with me that um Councilman Richardson said, whether it was at our last meeting or two meetings ago, is that we shouldn't hold on to these seats for as long as we want to, but that we should be thinking about who's going to come after when when our time is done. And you know it for I don't know how many of us were on planning board. I know myself uh John Lorie um it it serves as a great training ground for understanding a the processes of the town getting to know the town staff getting to know what's going on in the town. Um so for for folks in in who are sitting here today who don't have this list in front of us of the members we have now we have three from Shannamara two from Kalenwood one from Kerry Greens. So then so two districts that are not represented and I think what works you know the reason that we have the distinct geographic districts is so that we have every part of town represented versus every seat being at large. Um, and so I think that served the town well, but also it puts a little bit of a gentle burden on our shoulders too within our own districts to go and say, "All right, who are folks who are uh whether civically engaged or not, people who would be good stewards of the town's future and who want to um make the best possible um decisions on behalf of the town. So, I think it's a good impetus for all of us to be able to say um who are the folks that we can um engage in in the business of the town, whether it's on planning board or or to run for council one day. So, I uh I say that to say I'm I'm in support of option three along with Councilman Vanderey.

Second. You were saying that I was thinking Jacqueline Wilson just became my best friend.

Any other comments? Well, I don't disagree and thank you for remembering my comment. I do think that's important. I would point out that's the most restrictive. So, so as we seek to have the most qualified people in the room to understand land development ordinances, and it's not an easy job. I didn't come from that background. You guys did. So, you would know better than I do. Um, so I would support your motion if you make it. Uh, but it would just it'd be on on us to go find really um interested people who can uh tolerate I think the work of a planning board member. I think it's pretty difficult work uh uh in my opinion. Um but I would support your motion if you'll make it or Lori would support it, I'm sure.

So I will chime in because I I I agree with uh Councilman Richardson. Uh, in the five, I guess four and a half years I've been on town council, I feel like we've had issues having quorum with the planning board the entire time. I know we had the period where I don't think we even had enough people at all. We were down significantly in numbers. I so I say all that to say I don't want to have the most restrictive means and I don't want people to look out there and say oh well there's a policy and I see that there's already three people from say Shannara I'm not going to even apply where if we need the bodies we I mean if we we we want people to be engaged and I don't want there to be something discouraging people from being engaged so I I go back to what I and not that it was the best idea, but I do think something along option two, but I like option two with also the caveat of if we're or even option three that if we're exceeding that limit, then those people can become alter alternates and in that instance say like right we how we have it right now if we have someone else from Shannon are applying, they would become the first alternate and then essentially because there's a vacancy, they would be attending meetings and voting and until we can or until I I guess it's kind of on me can recruit someone from my district. Yeah. Uh because we're under poorly underrepresented, but I I'll I'll stop there and that's that's just my thought. So, Graham, maybe in the last uh sentence of option three, if it said

something that the uh council would have the right to wave this requirement in order to appoint someone to an alternate to an alternate position or

Well, I I think just if if the if you've already met the cor um the maximum allowed for the fullterm seats, then the person would and if there's a vacant alternate seat, that person would immediately be applying for the alternate seat. Again, I I I don't want it to be, oh, now I have to go to town council and hopefully they will just wave this requirement because if someone does go online and looks at what are the rules around this, that's what I would think. Instead, I would okay, if I apply, what would and I see that there's three Shenamara reps, then I would just be an alternate. And that it also lay the groundwork for how are you applying? And I don't know if it says it on the application or not, but

this might help just a little bit just so you know the way it works. Let's say we let's say there was a full board of seven. When you appoint alternates, if a full member comes off of that board, an alternate automatically fills that seat, okay? And takes over that term. So the alternates are there to fill into full seats. Haven't had that luxury lately because we had haven't even had a full board.

So the alternates automatically slide into full terms if the full term seat becomes vacant. But Miss Nichols if if someone completes that's only if a term is interrupted short then then they automat otherwise if they complete the term if they complete the term when the terms are up for reappoint you as the council have the right to appoint whoever you want in those seats. So if an alternate term and a full seat term come due the same year you have the right to appoint the alternate to the full position. Okay. And said the council has the right to do the appointments when the terms expire.

So for instance, like when I applied, it was the same time as Tony Pin, who's on the board now, and he was appointed to the full term. I was appointed to the alternate, and then I think um Heather Grooms uh left the planning board, and I slid into the full-time spot.

I don't want to minimize the importance of this. I think it's important. Um, I like number three from the perspective that it gives our wishes, right? It specifies our wishes in a more formal way that we'd like equal representation across the town, much like we have on this board. I'm okay with a caveat at the bottom that says we can wave it. I'd also suggest isn't this isn't a statute that can be easily changed in a year or two. I'm I'm a big fan of pi pilot projects, see if it works, if we like it. Um, so with that said, I would again support a motion for number three if someone would make it. Nobody did. No, nobody. Not yet.

All right. So, I'd like to make a motion to uh approve uh the ordinance of option three for our planning board. And is there any other particular language that I need to just the amended budget? Yes, excuse me. The amended ordinance for the planning board with option three. Okay. Um, can I just substitute some words too? Just maybe say review period of 24 months and just see how we're doing. Come back to us and just give us a report. Is that okay? Yes, Mike. Again, and and the guess we don't know what it's going to look like, but but it would be helpful if we could just have a formal two-year review. How how has this been done? What would I'd like to add that to the motion. Yes, sir. You're going to add u writing. Did you get it, Eron?

Um, we will bring it back to you in 24 months. Then if you have it, I don't need to write it. Go ahead. Second. Oh, second. All in favor? I I All right.

Planning board application. Next up, uh, attached to the email for the council was the application for Heather Wright. Um, per your new amended ordinance for the planning board, you are allowed to appoint her because she is in Fairfield Plantation District 1. Um, so Council Member Hall, good job for recruiting. Thank you, girl. He knew that all along. Yeah. And um, snuck under the wire.

Would so choose terms are become expired each for their year in March of every year. This term technically expires March 31st, 2026. I would recommend to the council because that is next month that you appoint her if you choose to appoint her for a term ending March 31st, 2029 because the planning board terms are for three years. Council, any discussion? I have a question. So the we have a list here of the six planning board members, a seventh full seat that expires next month.

The seat the term goes with the seat and that vacant seat expires March 31st, 2026. That term for that seat. So I suggest if the if the council wants to appoint Miss Wright, you appoint her for the term for a full term which is three years plus one month to make up for March. Okay. Unless you want us to bring her application back to you. That doesn't violate any town ordinance about a three-year term limit.

She'd be three years and one month. Okay. I move approval of Miss Wright's application for planning board for a term a full term ending March 31st, 2029 and the remainder of the current term ending in March 31st, 2026. I'll second. I'll second. Sorry, was there a second? Yes. Third. I

Thank you. Alex, you're up again. Council operating agreement. Uh, thank you again, Mr. Mayor. I wanted to come back before the board to present a draft town council operating agreement coming out of our annual retreat. Uh the town council as part of its strategic action plan determined uh that it would like staff to draft a way to memorialize and put on paper uh the positive uh work environment that the board uh sees at the town right now when it comes to mutual respect, ethical standards and a number of such things. So, with that being said, um without going through everything, uh staff have drafted an operating agreement. I'd be happy to walk you through it or to answer any questions. Any preference, Mr. Mayor? Um I think we all had a chance to read it and I think we all had a chance to

digest it. Anybody not have a chance to read it and digest it? I did, but I'm I'm happy to have the manager walk us through the highlights. I think it's important for those listening and those in the audience who who may not have read what I've read um here. I think it's important. So, could you give us three minutes on it?

Absolutely. So, several highlights. Um first, commitment to the law and ethical standards as to what uh what you do. There's very clear parameters when it comes to general statutes, um things of that nature. uh attendance, participation. Uh we heard from the board that showing up is 90% of it at the annual retreat. And not just showing up, but being prepared and engaged. Your work, your job as a town council member is very time commitment and it's also very intensive if the right preparation is done. And so there was an expectation the board set for each other to come in prepared to meetings. professional behavior, respect towards each other and the public and staff, uh appropriate attire, uh trying to make this office as nonpartisan as possible to work together. Um adherence to the council manager form of government, which is what we're based on, a desire to have open discussion, strategic deliberation. We've scheduled that as discussed with the board uh for working dinners and of course compliance with open government laws and uh just a final accountability and public trust. So that is a very high level review. May I make a motion to approve the

Well, I I have a comment for you and and I'll tell you my biggest concern here is that um what they sometimes call as the Cobra effect. I'm just my concern here is that this will ultimately end up, you know, paving the the the road to hell to some extent. uh because my concern here is that it's going to build a measuring tool and then at some point in the future whether it's this group or a future group somebody's going to ultimately I mean how does this work? Somebody's going to say hey you're not following this policy. So my biggest concern here is that it's actually going to over time actually result in creating discord than fixing the discord that we may have because once you put this in writing it effectively to some degree allows it to be weaponized and and and so that's my biggest concern is that it's going to ultimately cause more grief than it's actually going to be fixing because most of these things that are in this policy policy are already state statutes. And so that that's just my biggest concern is that us putting it in writing, it's it's it becomes a ruler and then at some point somebody's going to use that ruler to do some measuring. And my concern would be is that if you think about how that would unfold, it's going to be, hey Bob, you just broke the policy. And Bob's going to turn around and say, well, you broke the policy last week. and and so that's my concern is that eventually it would actually cause the discord that we're trying to make sure we don't we prevent. So anyway, my concern with it while I'm it's all great. We tried and strive to do this anyway. Most of us do.

We're elected officials. But there is absolutely zero thing any of us can do if we violate it. Nothing. Well, there's one extremely rare thing called an a motion, right? That's a word. Yeah, but you're not going to get it with this. No, it's a it's it's a it's there's nothing sensor. And that's a big deal. Happens all the time somewhere else. Yeah.

Um I kind of agree with Stephen. I mean, I this is stuff I strive to do. We obviously comply with the government laws, this the constitution. Um, most of the time we're in appropriate attire. Most of the time, summertime I see us a little more casual, but you know, um, I don't know. I I like the idea that we're talking about it, but I'm not signing this or doing anything. It just doesn't do anything for me.

Well, I mean, I have another question. This is going to be directed at Melanie. Obviously, uh we know that you work for a different group also. Do they have something like this here? Yes, but it's and and it's a policy. It's I don't remember what it falls under. There's you know there's many different policies and theirs works how well you think. Sorry. Sorry. I'm putting you on the spot. Yes, you are.

I'm putting you on the spot. I mean, the reason why I bring it up here is is like if you visit social media very often, you will see that it does not help any type of discord within council groups. And that would be my that's my biggest thing is like the idea here is that this is to preserve our culture and yet based off of other entities, it does not appear that this type of thing helps their culture at all. So that's just my concern anyway. So what do you what is it you're saying?

I I don't support I mean I really don't support it. I mean that's that's basically it for me. I mean it's not that I don't support the things that are in it because again most if not all of the not all of them but the the most of them are state statute anyway. We're we're actually required by law to do most of the things that are in this. So my only concern is is that it it will provide I mean if we have this like I said at some point somebody's just going to call somebody out which is going to ultimately end up in Discord right I mean I just my concern again is just that it's going to cause the opposite effect that it's intended to do and when we talked about this during our meeting it was intended to preserve and not to brag on this group but a really positive positive group that works together versus a lot of infighting and a lot of disrespect that goes on and so I just you know that would be my concern.

Any other comments? A question for the town managers having worked in other municipalities coordinating with other town managers uh around the the area and the state. Um, I guess to build on Steven's question for Miss Cox is how many other towns h do you know of? Not asking for a list, but is this a common item that other towns have?

It's common for rules of procedure. And forgive me, Council Member Cousins, I don't know how common having an operating agreement is. I think what you'll find is bits and pieces of this are common, just like it was common for us. We took parts of different policies and applied them here. parts of different statutes. Um, Miss Cox, are you familiar how common it is?

I mean, you have to have the the ethical policy that's required by state statute. So, some of this is repetitive of this. A lot of it is not. Um, some other municipalities may have it and there's just right there isn't a need really unless you are going to weaponize against I see it being pulled up.

Uh, forgive me. Uh, does town do you have something like this for your uh town staff an override um arching like policy?

Um, in bits and pieces. We have our personnel policy which sets certain requirements from ethical standpoints. Um, a variety of things of that nature. Uh, we label our internal staff workplace culture called the Stallings way. If you walk around in certain section of town hall, you'll see a poster up on the wall where we try to um emphasize the positive workplace culture. And there are a lot of things that are similar to that. You know, mutual respect, responsiveness, things like that. Um, so, uh, we took a little bit of that and added it to the council as well.

And, uh, sorry, chief to put you on the spot. Is it, I think you mentioned there might have been, you have something similar for a police department in the past. All our officers were required to assign a code of conduct. All right. After taking me over.

Thank you. So my this my made a joke earlier when we talked and I do think this is this to me comes off as a solution searching for a problem because I don't think we have any of these issues. That said, I also I mean I I do I am slightly in favor of this only because if the town staff have something and if the police force have something then I think it's only fair that we have something in writing to show we're on board and we're we're all one big team and there aren't standards for one and not for us. Um, but I I do I I I echo Stephven's point and I I also think I don't think we have the problem. So, I don't know necessarily know if we ever needed this, but if since other staff have it, I'm actually in favor of it.

So, I'm glad I didn't make the motion. Like, whoa. Sorry. Sorry, man. That's all right. Glad to I'm just um my qu I have a question. So So how much Alex is is of this is incorporated in the council orientation the the new council member orientation. It feels a little bit like this is a lot of this I I get it. I'm a little bit when you first started talking council member heirs I'll be I use your last name to be formal. I was like well I don't get that it's going to be required. We're going to be required to be formal.

No we're not. But but no, in a roundabout way, I guess I see what you're saying. So I don't I I think that's a very astute point you make. I'm not sure I agree with it entirely, but but I I give it to you. That's a that's a good point. I'm okay to not take action tonight. Does it require action uh to be adopted? It would require council. We want to think about it a little bit longer. I'd like to think about Mr. Heir's comments. I don't entirely agree with them. And if I'm not mistaken at the retreat, this might have come out of my mouth after Mr. Walton sort of talked a little bit about um codes of conduct. So, um I like the Were you going to say something?

I was just going to say I do know that the bigger cities all have them. Durham I know definitely has it because when I was researching policies for another client, all the big towns do have them. Well, what what you said kind of answered my question though. It's only ever brought up to be a weapon in my experience. Right. Because there's one person that's not following it. If everyone's following it, right? So it would always differ in nature than an agreement for staff because we can be we work for the voters and we can be fired by the voters only every four years

over four years. So how would something like this be enforcable in any way during the term of a council member? I don't know that the point of it was ever to be enforceable, but so much as to say here are the standards that we would like to hold ourselves to. And uh I I agree with what Council Member Richardson said is that I uh hear Stephen, I don't fully agree with Stephen. Um but I don't think that it looks good to say we here are these rules that we have that we've talked about and asked the town to bring to us and then to say no, we don't want to do that. I think it's good to have a high set of standards for ourselves. I agree. And to codify them.

Maybe we change the word town council operating agreement to town council operating standards to change that. It's not an agreement, a legal agreement or to be misconstrued for legal agreement. It's a standard that we try to operate under. So to take Brad's idea, maybe I I'd like to just pause it think about it and bring it back to another meeting if we decide to. I'd like to think about Steve's comments and John's as well. But not mine, not yours. I'm sure that's a violation of one of these.

That's true. Okay, I'm good to defer. It sounds like not disagreement with any of the content. It's just does it accomplish what we want it to accomplish and could it be a source for discord that doesn't currently exist in the future? I think that's my biggest concern. Not what's in it. The language is fine. My biggest concern is that eventually it would be weaponized. Okay. I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate your perspective. Really, I think that's important to think through. I'm not just saying that. I do. I think it's very helpful. Yeah. Could Could we defer this to another undetermined date while we think about it? Appropriate. But thank you for putting this together. Of course.

Just to say this out loud, you know, I served with on the Wuman Council for several years and it a lot of those meetings was nothing more than a recourse of kind of discourse within other councils. And so the the harmony that we have is very critical to us. And so I I I want to make sure that everybody hears that that I'm not against that. I'm actually just concerned that it this may actually cause more discord than it than it helps. That's all. Thank you, Alex. Tabled till future.

So for our understanding, is there a date that you would like us to bring it back? No. No. Sounds good. Not yet. talk about it. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Next up, close session. Pursuant to NCGS143-318.11 A3, I move that we move into close session pursuant to NCGS143- 3181 A3. And do we need to invite anyone? I don't know. Alex, we need to invite anyone. No, sir. All right. Do not. Thank you. So, we have a motion on the floor.

Seconds. Second. All All in favor? I. All unanimous. Thank you all very much for coming tonight. Thank you.