Zoning Board Meetings - Regular Meeting

posted on the township website and this bulletin board in accordance to all in accordance with the open public meetings act. Now, can I have a motion to go into executive session? So move. Second, please. Second. Roll call. Marissa. Landon Tineri. Yes. Michael, yes. Michael Leandi, yes. Richard Robacker. Yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry. Yes. And this is for zoning board planner contract negotiations.

order. This meeting is being live streamed on YouTube. Also, no new testimony or applications to be heard after 9:30 p.m. and we adjourn at 10 p.m. sharp. Advocate notice of this meeting was provided in the New Jersey Herald. It was also posted on the Sparta Township website and its bulletin board in coordinance to all provisions of the open public meetings act. Please rise and join us. Salute the flag. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisy and justice for all. For the world. Marissa, please call the roll. Landon Tineri here. Michael Joseph here. Michael Leandi here. Richard Robecker here. Chairman Kenneth Larry here. We have Louis Karp here. Excuse me. All right. We have a few resolutions to be memorialized. First one is Lindsay Knight, zoning board appointment for planner. Chair will entertain a motion. So moved. Second, please. Second. Marissa, please call the role. Literary. Yes. Michael Joseph. Yes. Michael Leandi. Yes. Richard Robacker. Yes. You need to do the chair. Oh, chair McKenz Larry. Yes. Sorry. Next one is application 619 711 block 2016 lot 112 and 13 extension

of time which was decided on February 26, 2025. Please call the um have a motion to memorialize that. So moved. Second, please. Second. Any discussion? Marissa, please call the role. Literary. Yes. Michael Josik, yes. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Robecker, yes. Next resolution is 12-24 Sussex County Charter School for Dvarian decided on February 26 25, 2025. The chair will entertain a motion. So moved. Second, please. Second. Any discussion? Marissa, please call the role. Landon Tineri, yes. Michael Joseph, yes. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Roarbacker, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. The last one is application 13-23. Door Anderson decided on February 26, 2025 for Dvarian. Chair will entertain a motion. No move. Second, please. Second. Wake up. Any discussion? One stupid question real quick. Sure. This is to memorialize the resolution that turns down nine. Okay. That's all I needed to make sure of. I It's what I thought we were doing, but just to make sure. Marissa, please call the role. Michael Dosic, yes. Richard Robecker, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. And would we'll approve the minutes to September 11th minutes, 2024. Chair entertain a motion. So moved. Second, please. Second. Any discussion?

Marissa, please call the role. Michael, yes. Landon Tineri, yes. Chair McKenna Larry. Yes. And we also have the January 8, 2025 minutes to be approved. The chair will entertain a motion. So moved. Second, please. Second. Any discussion? Marissa, please call the role. Landon Tineri. Yes. Michael Jac. Yes. Michael Leondi. Yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry. Yes. Okay. We also have our new planner for a brief presentation that she's so kind to make tonight. And I'll open the floor to Lindsay Knight. All right. So, we are going to go through kind of an introduction to Dvariances and specifically we're going to go through the D1, D2, and then just some case law that's applicable to these variances. Um, so what is a Dvariance? I'm sure you guys, if you've been on the board, you know it's a form of relief um from local zoning uh zoning ordinances and the MLUL or the municipal land use law um kind of lays out the standards for D variances. Um and that D is what stands for the section of the MLUL. So kind of bolded it at the end. It's 4055D-70. So that's where um when you hear D, that's where it's coming from. Um, only the zoning board of adjustment can grant a Dvariance. Um, it requires five affirmative yes votes for approval. And, um, it's important to note that that counts for if you only have five members there. If you have six members there, seven members, it's always going to be five. So, you might have instances where an applicant is required to have those five votes and there's only five members of the board there and you might wish to carry their application. Um, an

application will never go to both the planning board and zoning board. The application will have to be um the zoning officer will uh be the person who determines what board it goes to. Um, and usually or always devariances are going to end up here at the zoning board. So, it could be a subdivision with a Dvariance, but it will be at the zoning board for that variance. Um, the standards of proof are much tougher than a C variance. um it's devariances are looked at in a much more serious way because a lot of the impacts from the devariances um are much larger, much bigger to the community. Um and it's important to note as well that every application must looked at be looked at individually and independently. Um you can't look at a similar application that happened two years ago and make a decision based on that. You have to look at the facts that are presented with each case. Excuse me, Lindsay. Just for the public, our new planner is just making a brief presentation to the board and the public. I just wanted you to be aware of that. Once she's finished, we'll have the applications start. Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Lindsay. Um, so there's six types of devariances. We're only going to touch on the first two, which are going to be um use related. D1 is a use or principal structure that is um not permitted in the zone. That will always be the principal structure. Accessory structures do not fall um do not rise to a D1. Um D2 is an expansion of an existing non-conforming use. D3 is a deviation from a specification or standard pertaining to conditional uses. Um, if you look in your ordinance, you'll see a conditional use typically has a number of items that it has to um it has to be apply to. And if it doesn't meet that, then it will end up being a D3 variance. D4, D5, and D6 are going to be related to the actual structure. D4 is an increase in the permitted F or

floor area ratio. D5 is an increase in the permitted density. Um D5, it's important to note as well that that is not going to be applicable to one and two families. Um sometimes you'll see dwelling units need to have x amount of square feet per acre. Um and if it doesn't meet that for a single family or a two family that is an increase in density, but in the case of D variances, it doesn't rise to a D5. Single family and two family are exempt. Um D6 is an increase in the permitted maximum height either by 10 feet or 10% of what is permitted. So we'll jump right into D1. That's the zoning ordinance. Lists the permitted principal uses in each zoning district. Typically that's kind of the first part of the uh zoning ordinance for a district. An application involving an accessory structure that is not permitted will not rise to the level of a devariance. And then for example, if a doctor wishes to practice out of his home which is located in a residential zone, the zoning ordinance um prohibits businesses in the residential zone. Therefore, that D1 use variance will be applicable in this case. D2 is an expansion of an existing non-conforming use. Non-conforming is defined by the MLUL um as law. It could be something that was lawful prior to the adoption or revision or amendment of a zoning ordinance, but it fails to form to the requirements of the uh zoning district in which it is located. Um, so that could be something that maybe had previously gotten um an approval from the board or in the instances of zoning amendments or revisions or a change in your uh zoning map cause it to now be an existing non-conforming condition. So for an example, a two family residential dwelling is located in a single family residential zoning district that prohibits two family dwellings. The applicant proposes in addition to that two family dwelling that is existing non-conforming

um that will require a D2 use variance as they are enlarging the non-conforming use. So Dvarianes require special reasons um to be approved and that is kind of a legal term from the MLUL. The applicant must satisfy the uh positive criteria required for a devariance. Um and the special reasons means the property is particularly suited for the proposed use and this can be shown in three different ways. Um which I'll go into the next one. So this is there won't be any mystery on that. Um the negative criteria must also be addressed and that is basically saying that you can approve this and it's not going to cause substantial detriment to the public good. It's not going to impair the intent of your zoning ordinance or your municipal master plan. I recently had, for example, I recently had an um an application where somebody was proposing a three family in a zone that their master plan re-exam looked at this zone district. They decided that three families were causing too much density in that area. So about five years ago when they did their re-exam, they noted that that zone should be changed. It should be amended. They should no longer permit three families, only one and two families. um and then somebody came forward to the board with a three-f family application. That's an example of it no longer um being in line with the master plan or the intent of the zoning ordinance. So the special reasons are the first one is going to be an inherently beneficial. You'll hear that probably thrown around quite a bit. Um and that is meant to be a use that is uh promoting the welfare of the community. Um and it's supposed to be universal value for the community. So, a hospital, school, daycare, um things like that. Um uses that provide jobs, services, products, and recreation usually are not going to be deemed inherently beneficial. So, if somebody comes forward with an indoor turf facility for

soccer, that's not going to be considered an inherently beneficial use um because it's not actively helping the entire community. It's not universal. Um the next piece for a special reason is the site is particularly suited and the municipality will benefit by placing the building or use where it is proposed despite the local zoning uh prohibiting it. A prerequisite is showing other locations in the surrounding area are not suitable for the use. So it has to be a reason that this specific lot is meant for this specific use even though the zoning doesn't allow for it. Um and finally is undue hardship. So that's saying that if the property was to be used exactly conforming to the zoning ordinance, the applicant is going to suffer an undue hardship. So seek a test. I threw this one in there for you. Um so this is typically used with inherently beneficial uses. Um and there's four parts to it. So you're identifying the public interest at stake, determining the benefits that are proposed. Um next you're going to identify any detrimental um effects. Next, you consider the mitigation. You explore ways to mitigate or reduce the identified detrimental effects through conditions or modifications. And then finally, you balance and decide. So, you wait the uh you weigh the public interest against the potential negative impacts as mitigated. So, it's that balancing. Is it is allowing this going to be better than not allowing it? Um are the negatives um outweighing the benefits? So, that's where the it's also sometimes called the balancing test. And then we'll go into some case law. Medici is kind of the big one. Um and that is the Supreme Court upholding the showing of the positive criteria as sight specific. Um peculiarly fitted at the particular location for which the variance is sought. So as I said earlier, that's one of the things that you have to identify is this use suited for this property. Um sometimes you'll see like in certain zones like an

outlier lot that sometimes this can be applicable to. Um the court concluded that the property for which a motel and restaurant were proposed was not particularly suitable for um the development. And they thought this because it was located on a highway interchange and there were many other areas on the highway interchange. So um the other properties were then also near the interchange. So how was this one so specific that that use should be permitted when there's multiple other sites, right? it doesn't have that uniqueness of this is particular for this specific block and lot block and lot. Um so in determining this fact was insufficient to show it didn't show the particular suitability. The court stated that um the development of the site in the community is particularly appropriate for that very enterprise. So kind of really nailing in that this was a highway interchange. Multiple properties could have had a motel and restaurant. it wasn't just that property was not unique enough for that use. So, additional case law is uh funeral home management versus basilian. Um it's the appelllet division held that the subject property was not particularly suitable for a funeral home because the board made no finding that a funeral home use was not available in other locations in the area or indeed that there was a community need for such use. So that was the their professionals didn't come to the board with information saying that this was the particular site for it that um they didn't prove that there weren't any other locations where it could be located. Um the the court found particular suitability exists where generally the use is one that would fill in a need of general community where there's no other viable location and where the property itself is particularly well fitted for the use either in terms of its location, topography or shape. So that kind of once again going back to why a property could be particularly suited for a

use. Do you guys have any questions? Thank you for the presentation, Lindsay. Usually we open the hearing to the public for comments and questions not on the agenda. Sure. Tonight, but the public can just bear with us another five 10 minutes. I'm going to open it to the public now since our planning board chairwoman Joan Ferman is here tonight. and Joan, I think you were going to have a few questions or comments or not. If so, please come forward. Thank you everybody. Thank you Lindsay and thank you Ken for having the foresight to, you know, be thinking about these things. We face many of the same issues of course. Um, and it does get very confusing at times, but I just I I do have a question as I was listening and I'm sorry I walked in a little bit late for this, but um, the Medici is mostly based on a conditional approval, right? Like if it's a uh, you have a permitted use, a conditional use, and prohibited use. So if it's con that's conditional use, what would be the difference if it's a prohibited use in terms of the negative um, aspects that have to be met? Do you have to meet all negative aspects? Yeah. So, you would have to prove that the that it's not going to be detrimental to your ordinance or your master plan, right? So, I mean, if if it's something that is explicitly stated as prohibited and then, for example, um what I was saying earlier about the master plan re-examining identifying that the three families were too much density and they specifically said it in their re-exam and then amended their ordinance based on that re-exam that I think pretty clearly says that they don't want it. Right? So the from a planning standpoint, if I was to take on that client, I wouldn't because you know it very much says it in your planning documents that that's something that is not wanted. So in the case of the negative criteria, I think it would be extremely difficult to prove that

it's not going to cause a negative uh impact when your uh planning documents explicitly say that they do not want that use. Yeah. I was just curious about the difference between the conditional and the prohibited. Yeah. Yes. Um Yeah. So in conditional the conditional use is slightly different right it's um it's permitted if you meet these conditions um so and if you don't meet those conditions then you still need that dev variance that D3 variance um and you still need to show that like you need to still show the positive criteria and the negative criteria to why you can't meet those conditions. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to be able to do more with, you know, with each other as we go forward, too, because we do face, we'll get applications that maybe you heard originally and then we get and vice versa. So, it's just good to keep lines of communications open. But, thank you for having us. Thank you, Chairwoman Ferman. Lindsay, thank you too for your presentation and this board. Looks forward to working with you. Yes. Thank you. I look forward to working with you as well. Good luck with the assignments of the planning board, master plan, subcommittee, and now this board. Yes, I'll be busy. I'll be spending some time here. Well, I had one other question. Uh, could you define undue hardship? What's your name, sir? Robert Otto. Robert Otto from the planning. Yeah. Uh, undue hardship. You mentioned that. Is there a definition? There is a definition. I don't know the definition off this top of my head, but yeah. Yeah. If you don't know, I'll get back to you. Thanks. Anyone else in the public? Okay, that's it, Lindsay. All right. Thank you. Thank you for coming tonight and everything you did to here tonight. Yeah. Now for the public hearing, we have the following applications. 3-23 John Melli and Roco Fulo 513 Elmer block 320004 lots 234 and 5 are two seat

variants. And we have the application 423 John Melli Rocko 2-8 Elm Road block 320006 lots five six seven and 8 C variance and then we'll have the application 15-24 Nancy Hopkins for C variance of relief block 28002 lot 12. So, Johnelli uh Roco, please come forward. And this is a continuation from the hearing. Mr. Chairman, how are you? Nice to see you again. Harold P. Cook the third here on behalf of the applicants who are with us here. sir, as you probably are aware, we'll let you complete your application before we open it to the board and to our planner. Fantastic. Thank you. And the engineer was sworn two months ago when we were here. So, do you want to resquare him or That's okay. Just want to confirm that your your license is still active and valid. Yes. Thank you. As of this afternoon anyway. And you continue to be under oath from last time. Yes. Thank you. All right. Uh we received the uh memo or letter from um Herald Pillow Associates and I'm going to have our engineer go through it. There's nothing in that letter that uh the applicant will not comply with. And uh we'll address each item if the

board requires. And I think one of the uh issues, I don't want to jump ahead, but I want to get it out there. One of the issues was who's going to maintain the area of the road around the property. And we propose that the applicant does that. and we put in the a deed to run in perpetuity with the land that in the event the property is sold, the successor in title assumes that responsibility. Okay. You'll have to have a microphone. You can take the one from the stand over there. Sorry. Am I blocking the board or you guys could see the evening board or good evening. Um I'm just going to be very brief. So we we submitted revisal name is Giovani G I O V A N I last name Manilio M A N I L I O with Manta Design. Giovanni, uh you made revisions to the plans since the last time we were here. You submitted those revisions to the board, correct? Correct. Yep. We submitted uh plans and a response letter back at the end of February of this year. Um I'll just go briefly on the changes to the to the plans which were minor in nature. Uh so one of the the items that we revised um we heard loud and clear from the board and from the fire official. Um we changed the road which was gravel originally uh which is now going to be a full depth pavement uh cross-section. So that's one of the

changes that we're proposing and that driveway will attach from uh both ends of um of the uh project. Um, additionally, we added a site triangle at the corner of Washington and Elm. Um, and that's that's been added to the plans. Um, and I believe there was some other minor changes to the plans per the last review letter. Um, and that's it as far as plan revisions. I know we did receive two new um, letters, one for both um, 2 to 8 Elmode and the other one for five to eight u 5 to 13 Elm Road. And I could go through them briefly or if you like. I mean, we went through all the comments and we have no issues um complying with all the comments in Mr. Simmons uh letter of April 1st, 20125. Uh Giovanni, the one uh the one comment uh which I guess requires an answer rather than we will comply is uh maintenance responsibility of Elm Road in the area of the subject property must be established. That's Yep, that is correct. Um so the applicant did reach out to the lake community um and to the uh association. Uh they had stated that the uh practice is that the maintenance is on the actual property. Uh so has to be followed with the deed and it it carries with the property and to any subsequent owners. Um so we'll agree to that. Any other testimony? We have nothing else. Okay, we'll open it to our board engineer, David, if you're so kind. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. Uh, the two reports are very similar. I'll I'll go through the one of uh April 1st, 2025 for number 03-23. That's block

3204, blocks 23, 4, and five at 5 to 13 Elm Drive. page one of the report and the top is basically just a summary of the revised information and previous information that we received under zoning. Uh basically uh there was discussion about the variances that are needed on this particular lot. Again, the applicant provided background data on front yard setback, 50 feet required, 20 feet proposed for variance. Rear yard setback 50 feet minimum required, 31.9 ft uh or 28 feet to the rear steps by scaling variance required. And the lot area 25,000 square feet minimum required and what they were able to accumulate together is 19,000 square feet which requires a variance. Uh again, a planning variance is required because it is a private road. Uh and I indicated that under item 2D, I recommend a deed be uh provided to consolidate the lots as called for on the variance map. And with regards to maintenance and repair of Elm Road, uh as the applicant indicated earlier this evening, they were going to record a deed where the property owner was responsible for maintaining, repairing, and what have you. Elm Road. Uh I believe that'll be on both sides of Elm Road. Uh because they basically have an application on both sides. So presumably subject to the board council uh addressing it differently, that cost will probably be split 50/50, but that's the applicant's intent. So, it's uh memorialized in the county clerk's office in perpetuity so that anyone that purchases that property knows what their obligations are in order to make sure emergency vehicles and what have you can get through there in accordance with the municipal land use law. Uh with regards to uh storm

drainage, uh they did call for on this particular lot as well as on the other side of Elm Road uh dry wells for uh mitigating the increase in impervious coverage because of the uh driveway and the dwelling that's being proposed. I just had a couple comments on there regarding the soil logs and permeability tests and also putting a solid cover on the dry well so that it doesn't get overcharged from anything other than the intended drainage area of the roof. And then on architectural plans, will there be any HBAC unit? And I believe that was negative. There wasn't going to be uh No, I believe the testimony at the last meeting was that there will be AC units, but it will be on the opposite side of the closest dwelling. Uh so stand corrected on that. Yeah. And we'll show those on the revised plans. So on both properties there's a a larger sideyard. Uh that's the one that will be on not the one. Thank you. Yeah. Uh soil erosion and sediment control plans. They'll have to take care of that. That'll be one of if the board acts favorably. That'll be one of the permits they needed. With regards to utilities, uh they're proposing a new well to serve this dwelling. Plus the dwelling on the other side of the road. They're proposing a septic system. Again, we'll have to get the permits for that. And with regards to the aerial utilities, uh they'll have to expend the cost necessary to bring those utilities down uh Elm Road in order to be close enough for the utility companies to provide service for the dwellings. That'll be up to them and their expense. Uh with regards to the Elm road plans, uh the road plans on both sides of the road do in fact now reflect a 2-in patuminous concrete surface course, 4 in of puminous concrete stabilized base and 6 in of dense graded aggregate for a width of 20 ft. And when they did

receive the report back from the fire marshall uh fire department representatives, uh 20 feet is what they wanted for the minimum. So that that is being satisfied and they're basically constructing it between Deerfield Road and Washington Drive which are also both paved roads. So now when they go to get the snowplow and what have you and access, they're coming off of a paved road. Uh we talked about maintenance responsibility and an environmental impact statement was not submitted, but they are addressing storm drainage and they are addressing uh the septic and the well which will go through the county health department. And as far as this particular lot goes, they need the county health department approval for well and septic. uh the fire department uh construction official obviously for the building and soil conservation through the Upper Delaware Conservation District. I also recommend that they have an ASB bill when the project's complete so we can verify that in fact they've complied with any variances that the board may approve. And with regards to the road improvements in the utilities, uh what my suggestion and recommendation to the board is because this is presumably going to be sold other people. Uh it's important to have the roadway done and the utilities available so that they sell one lot to Mr. Mrs. X and another lot on the other side to Mr. and Mrs. Y that in fact somebody's not stuck trying to do the road after the fact. So what I'm recommending to the board is that before uh a building permit is issued that the roadway actually be constructed at least up to the batuminous stabilized base and the utilities be extended to the point where they're ready for connection to the two homes and then before CO is issued for the homes that in fact the

final wearing surface be constructed on the roadway. Now, that's the one side of the road. Uh, board members, looking at the report I did on April 1st, 2025, uh, for block 3206, lots 56, 77, and 8 at 24, and 8 Elm Road, uh, for all intents and purposes, just highlighting the things that might be just a tad different. Again, on page two with the zoning table on that particular lot, and the applicant provided proofs on this at an earlier hearing, front yard set back 50 ft minimum. We're proposing 18.8 which needs a variance. Rear yard set back 50 ft minimum 20 ft is proposed which needs a variance which is about 16 ft by scaling to the rear stairs. And also the minimum lot width 125 ft is needed on Washington Drive. It's only 95.55 ft for a variance. Uh again the variances are basically the same the private road uh and they had required acquired as much property as they could. With regards to the storm drainage, the one thing different on this that I suggested they again have provided uh dry well uh sizing calculations and dry wells for the additional impervious coverage for the dwelling and the driveway that they're putting on the lot. but it doesn't include the impervious area because of the roadway, Elm Drive, Elm Road, excuse me. So, one of my suggestions was, and the applicants engineer may have another alternative, uh, at the lower end of the subject property that we're talking about, they might be able to, since the road is all sloped that way, cross slope, uh, come off that road, create a small easement at the lower end of the lot, and make a rain garden type of affair to help mitigate the increase in runoff, and then let it get back into the storm drainage system down on the

lower street. I don't know if you have any comments on that. No, no, I think that's a good idea. All the water drains that way. We have a swale. We could definitely swell it onto the property into a some type of basin either set up an easement for that. Exactly. Yep. And that property owner would be responsible in the deed for that easement for that drainage. Yeah. And we'll work with Mr. Simmons on making sure that complies. And then with regards to the architectural plans, we just discussed that as far as the HBAC units goes. Uh the soil ocean and sediment control plan that's shown on the plan. Again, well and septic uh is going to be taken care of through the county health department. And again, we talked about bringing the aerial utilities down. The same roadway we're talking about, Elm Road, is the same road I just talked about a minute ago under the other application. And again, what my recommendation is is for that road to be constructed at least up to the batuminous stabilized base and basically uh take that before there's a building permit issued and then prior to a co for a house the uh final wearing surface being done. the same basic permits are being required and as built and in both of the deeds for these properties usually what we recommend in other municipalities and subject to the board council I'd also suggest the recommendation that it be included specifically a paragraph in the deed or a clause in the deed that the township of Sparta uh does not own or maintain these roads so there's no confusion or confusion or questions that may arise either either now or in the future with a subsequent owner so they realize Sparta Township's not going to be plowing the roads. Please don't ask because it's going to be their responsibility if the board approves the application. And those are my reports, Mr. Chairman. David, thank you for the

detailed reports on both applications. Appreciate it, Mr. Chairman. Uh the only comment that I would make uh based upon Mr. Simmons uh recommendations for the deeds is that the deeds both say that both property owners are jointly liable for the maintenance of the road. So that can't point in either direction. It's your response. It's your responsibility. How they handle a payment is up to them. But I want them to both be jointly responsible. Thank you. Is that there's no objection to any of these conditions. Thank you. You could call on the board members for their comments and questions, please. Lon Tineri. No questions right now. Michael Johnson. No questions. Michael Leondi. Oh, nothing else for me. Thanks. Richard Roarback Becker. No questions at this time. This is the only time. Richard, I know. I know. Chairman Kenneth Larry. Not no questions. Landon, now is everything Yeah. Okay. With the fire situation when we were covering all that at the last meeting. No other questions. Okay. Now open the hearing to the public. If anyone's in the public, please come forward. Please give your name and address to the board secretary. Sir Joseph Jones. Your name, not 37. Does he have to be sworn in if he's going? back. Thank you. If he's asking questions, no. If he's make uh if he's making a statement, then yes, I guess you have a few questions and a statement. Uh well, one general uh I guess today uh what was wait a minute has to swear you in. Okay, very good. You swear affirm that the testimony that you're

about to give in this matter shall be the truth under penalties of perjury. I do. Okay. And please restate your address. I'm sorry. Joseph Jones, 37 Washington Drive. Thank you. So before I ask my my main question, I heard you use the phrase uh what is the sight triangle at the corner of Elm and Washington? Yeah. So it's a almost as you call it almost like an easement. Uh so it's a a clear sight distance. So any vehicles that turn there um there's a distance there so you can have visibility down the road. Okay. So my main question is when you look at the current width of Elm, so I heard you say is 20 ft is what we're proposing in front of our So that means So that 20 ft, will that expansion be on both sides equally from the middle of the road out? Not equally. I think we try to center it as closely as possible. That road currently kind of jogs in and out. No, I mean when you It's going to be expanded. Correct. Okay. How far on each side? because my well cap is right up against that. Uh so there's let's see here on the west side it expands a little bit more than it does on the east side. So on the uh my property 37 how far do you think that's going to go? Because that's like I said my well cap is very close to Elm and I'll have to measure that tonight. That's 37 Washington Drive. So about the midpoint of Elm is where my well cap is on my side. Thank you. Yes. So I I assume you're on this property to the east. I don't have the addresses. I'm sorry. Okay. So where is one here? Elm

is here. This is Washington. Okay. So if this is Washington, okay, where's the end? So when you're coming up the hill, you're making a right. Are you making Excuse me, Joseph. And you guys can use the microphone. It's a requirement from the state of New Jersey that everything be recorded properly. I'm just going to bring up I'm gonna bring up an aerial um is exhibit A1. Washington. Yeah. So, we're we're actually not expanding the road that way. We're actually taking out some of that gravel. Okay. So, there'll be no impact to that. No. So, if you It's harder to do with the the distance. So, what will be on you speaking to the microphone? Oh, sorry. Joseph, if you want to take this microphone over there, please. So everything's recorded. You can you can stay there. All right. Go ahead. So what side of Elm? If you're going up Washington and make a left into Elm, what side is that? So ement going the easement is on our side. It's on our property. All right. Like I said, I had to ask is my well cap is probably 5T from Elm and if you expand that 20, you're doubling the width. Yeah. So, like I said, on on the east side on your side of the property, we're actually removing some of that gravel. That's where it kind of jogs towards your property and then back over. Yep. When they piled it up and they put the steamroller where the big pile was, it went on my property well past the road. Yeah. Yep. So, it should have no effect on your side. Very good. We're expanding on the the west side and then as we get further to the north and then it goes a little bit to the to the east, but not much. Very good. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Anyone else in the public have any questions or

comments in regards to this application? Please come forward. Seeing no one else in the public, now back to this board. Any other comments or questions from board members or attorneys? No. David? No, sir. Thank you. All right. Mike, the board will entertain. Please come forward to the microphone. I was at the last meeting. Jessica Dagustinino, not related to the store, please give your name and address the board secretary. Attorney will swear you in. Oh, Jessica Dagustinino uh 12 Elm Road, Sparter Lake. You swear affirm testimony that your practice will shall be the truth under penalty to perjury. I do. Thank you. Um I was just wondering where um the septic for both properties is going to be in comparison to both Joe and my house is right next door as well are wells. Sure. So they're shown on our plan. So 2 and 8 Elm Road, which is the property to the west, uh shown right there in the the box. So on the opposite side of the house and the same with 5 to 13 Elm Road, which is the east side of Elm Road, is on the this side right here. Uh Elm is here. Um Washington on this side. I just know that my my well is very close to one of the properties, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't damaged at all. Yeah. And obviously any approval is

subject to the county approving the uh distances from Wells and Septic. Okay. And how far is Elm Road going going to be paved from Washington to Deerfield or from uh for the most part from pavement to pavement where the pavement starts and the pavement starts on at the end of the house both both of the homes or is it going to go past the whole road? Uh so it's going to pretty much be from Washington. There's a driveway that comes off of um Washington. Uh, so from there, um, to the driveway, I I believe I guess where your your dwelling is, which is 12 L, correct? Well, we're not going to go past the the driveway. Okay. So, it'll just be the milling that was pressed down. Correct. Essentially. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Anyone else in the public? Seeing no one else in the public, it's now back to this board. Chair will entertain a motion approving application 3-23. John Deli Rockaso 5-13 Elm Road block 320004 lots 2 34 and five are to for C variance relief. Sure. Mr. Chairman, I'll I'll take a stab at this. Um, I'll I'll make a motion to have the board attorney draft a resolution approving application uh number 3-23 as well as 4-23 for John Miselli and Rocka Chafulo. uh block 320004 lots 234 and five at 5 through13 Elm Street as well as block 320006 lot 5678 at 2 through eight Elm Street seeking C variances for um for the for the combined lots on block 320004 a front yard setback of 20 ft where a 50 foot minimum is required a rear yard setback of 31.9 ft where 50 foot minimum is required and a lot area

of 19,000 where 25,000 a minimum is required. Uh for combined lots on block 320006, we have a front yard setback of 18.8 ft where 50 foot minimum is required. Uh a rear yard setback of 20 feet where 17.2 feet to the stairs and a 50 foot minimum I'm sorry or 20 feet uh where 50 foot minimum is required. I have a note left from January. Sorry. um and a minimum lot width of 95.55 ft um at Washington Drive where 125 foot minimum is required. Uh we've got some conditions. The applicant uh will maintain both sides of Elm Road in a 50/50 joint responsibility between the two assemblages with that responsibility running uh with success or entitle. No, we're doing that as a joint resp joint responsibility, not 50/50. Sorry. Joint responsibility between 5050 is between them as to who pays for what. Right. Right. Sorry about that. Um uh the roadway will be constructed and extended to the driveway connection points prior to building permit issuance. That'll be the the base course. And then prior to a co being issued, we'll put the final wearing course uh in place. Sparta Township won't take any responsibility or ownership for Elmro. Um you'll work with Mr. Simmons on a drainage swale and rain garden easement and you'll adhere to the balance of the stipulations laid out in in Mr. Simmons's report. Uh that's based on all plans specs testimony presented here tonight as well as the previous meeting at January 8th of 2025. And I believe there was something with the utilities too, David. Right. Besides the road, I've got some notes from last time. I I maybe some of these have been addressed, but we're going to bring utilities to subject properties as required. Um, talked about the roadway, got the letter from the fire department,

right, uh, planning variance for Elm Road, uh, lake association, we talked about that. Site triangle, we talked about that. All required deed updates for lot assemblages. Uh, and we talked about obtaining the county health department approvals, verifying septic system locations and appropriate setbacks for local water wells, and of course, as belt drawings. Lewis, that's all I had. You have anything else to add to that? Was everything covered or not? I believe so. Yes. Covered. Yes. And then also the motion is for the you were doing both applications. I did have both. So, let me just for the record also application 4-23 for C variance relief. Does the chair have a second? Second. Any discussion? Marissa, please call the role. Elena Tineri, yes. Michael Dosk, yes. Michael Leondi, no. Richard Roarbacker, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. Uh, your application's been approved. Congratulations, thank you for all your submitts in regards to the application. Thank you for your courtesies. You're welcome.

Good night. Application 15-24. Nancy Hopkins, block 28002, lot 12, C Vance Relief. Please come forward. They're new. Nice. Right. Yeah. Thanks for Thanks for noticing. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Daniel Benondorf from the law firm of Aaskin and Hooker located in Sparta representing Nancy Hodkins. Uh if we could maybe have everybody sworn in um and qualified as an expert uh just to start so that we can move right through uh testimony. Sure. Nancy, if you'll please stand up, come up to the microphone. And you're in architect engineer. Yep. Uh, do you swear affirm that testimony that you're about to give in this matter should be the truth under penalties of perjury? I do. Right. First, uh, come state your name and address, please. Nancy Hodkins, 7043 Broadway Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Jeffrey Hower, Hower Engineering, 11:41 Green Lake, Turnpike, Ringwood, New Jersey. Thank you. Okay. Oh, do you swear affirm that testimony that you're about to give in this matter truth under penalty perjury? I do. Please state your name and give us your address. Frank Coulter, C O U L T E R, Blueprint Engineering, 196 West Ashlin Street, Doylestown,

Pennsylvania 1890. Thank you. Please. Mr. Sure. Uh, earned my bachelor of engineering degree from Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken in 2003. I'm licensed in New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey. Been licensed here in New Jersey since 2008. Worked for several firms before starting Houser Engineering in 2009. I've appeared before numerous um boards throughout Northern New Jersey, though surprisingly though I work in town quite often. This is my first appearance in front of this board. And is your license current? It is. And valid? Yes. Thank you. Active is the word, I guess. Yes. Any questions from this board? Okay. I earned uh my bachelor from Drexel University in architectural engineering back in 19 gosh 96. Um I'm a been a licensed architect in New Jersey since 2006. I'm a professional engineer in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New York, 23 different states. Um, I've been practicing uh architect architecture and engineering for approximately 25 years. I've testified in uh multiple states including New Jersey. Um, I have been in front of this board but not as a professional. Is your license active? Yes, my license is active in New Jersey. Both of both of them, the engineer and architect. Thank you. All right. Any questions from the board? Thank you. Mr. before you spend. Do you have personal knowledge of the property? I I do as well. I I have a a home on Hawthorne uh Lake as well. All right. How can we help you? Okay. Um so, the property we're here to discuss

tonight is 26 Hawthorne Lake Road, block 82002, lot 12. It's a 431.4 acre lot in the RR zone. Uh it's currently developed with 29 homes. Um, when I first saw this application, I was a bit perplexed. It was kind of odd to me. It was something I had never seen before. Um, so the subject lot is uh or the subject home is one of 29 homes uh that uh the last one of those homes was built in the 80s. This one that we're here to discuss tonight was built in the 30s. Um, and my client will provide testimony to that. Um, and uh, most recently back in 2022, 2023, one of the homes was uh, demolished down to the foundation and then rebuilt. Um, and I I I reference these things for the purpose of historical uh, uh, knowledge. Um, the Lake Hawthorne Park Club was established in 1895. Um, and essentially what it is is is like I said a over 400 acre lot uh where there were 29 homes built on that lot and each one of the members owns a a portion of the property itself and some of those members also own a home located on that one lot. Um, this evening we're here to discuss two C variances. One is for the front yard must face uh an improved street. Um Hawthorne Lake community primarily sits on an unimproved street uh that services the community. Um and then no lot may um contain more than one principal structure. Again, a C variance that we're asking for. Specifically with respect to this home, the applicant is before the board this evening because

she'd like to put a 305 square foot addition on the home. Our architecture will testify to that. Um, one of the main reasons is because uh there's currently not a full bathroom in the home and the applicant has to walk out of the house around the side of the house down into the basement where there is a dirt floor so that she can take a shower. As a result of that, she is done. She doesn't want to do that anymore. Um, and so she's here before the board this evening requesting these variances so that she can improve the home. Um, so without further uh actually, uh, Nancy, you want to stand up for a second? Come up to the microphone. Sure. Uh, you you've heard what I said this evening. Is that an accurate representation of the circumstances warranting us being here tonight? Yes. Okay. Do you have any questions or changes to my testimony? No. Well, your testimony, but no. My recantation. No. Okay. Thank you very much. Yes. Uh, Mr. Hower, if you want to discuss the law. Sure. Uh council did a good job describing uh the the property as a whole. Uh over 400 acres. Um it's within the center of it lies Horththornne Lake itself. Um the property is accessed from the north and this particular dwelling number 26 sits about a mile and a half into the into the property. It is a gravel road. It is a seasonal community. Uh I this I've done several projects in here mostly septic replacement projects. Um, so I know in the winter time this community is essentially shut down. The gate is closed and there is no access to it. But, uh, around this time of year is when when it opens up. Um, this property is served by a septic and well. The septic system was just replaced several years ago when we designed it. It's a modern system with advanced treatment and a pure flow system. uh the proposed 305 square foot addition uh which

essentially is going to increase the footprint of the house by 50% from a uh a modest 662 square ft up to 955 square ft. The addition is to the southeast of the existing structure. Currently, there is a a deck in that location that the deck that the addition will be uh built in place of and then a new 171 square foot deck will be to the souththeast of the new addition. Um from a from a bulk perspective being 400 acres, we don't have any issues with setbacks with uh lot lot area, lot width, lot frontage, front yard setbacks, sideyard setbacks, rear yard setbacks. or hundreds of feet away from the actual property line. Um the uh from an impervious coverage standpoint, we're only increasing the impervious coverage by 112 square ft in total. Um so it's a a modest increase. Um nowadays, anytime uh we are working on a property that is essentially within 300 ft of a water body, we always take a look at potential NJD regulations. uh they do come into play here. Uh we did check uh the geo web. There are no freshwater wetlands in the immediate vicinity that we feel would impact this project. However, um Horththorn Lake itself is just to the northeast of our of our dwelling. Uh but projects like this uh qualify for something called a permit by rule because we don't exceed certain thresholds. So, specifically with the addition, uh, because this addition is more than 25 ft away from the edge of the water body, because it's less than 400 square ft, because we're not below the flood hazard elevation, it is el eligible for what's called a permit by rule number 12. Um, and then the second permit board rule is has to do with the deck. Uh, those same

criteria were not within 25 ft of the top of bank of of the lake. Um, and we're not within the with the flood hazard below the flood hazard elevation. So those are essentially a permit by rule is essentially an exemption of sorts. You just state the fact. We don't have to apply to anything from the state. It's just a known fact. So we have that information on the plan and detailed it. Uh we're also in the Highlands Preservation Area. Um, as a very modest addition here, we believe we're eligible for exemption number five, which we would apply for, assuming uh we were fortunate enough to get approval here this evening. Um, in terms of the there are no proposed improvements to the driveway or to the to the walkways or anything of that magnitude. It's strictly the addition to the southeast. Um we are we are proposing a silt fence during construction to try to protect the lake. Um we are not disturbing over 5,000 square feet so it doesn't warrant soil conservation district but we will implement uh soil erosion and sediment control measures um during construction. Um that's all but that's uh that's all I have in terms of an overview. If anybody has any questions, I can move forward with the architect, you know, testimony and then we can have questions or after you completed the application. Okay. So, you can go seats. That's the same that you submitted to the board, right? Yes. Mr. Do you have any plans or were they also I I do have plans and I apologize. I've been traveling. Um I have two copies. They are infantestimally small. I kind of brought them for my own edification, but if the board would like to see them, you certainly may. Have

they been submitted already? They have been submitted. Yeah, they have been submitted with the application. Okay. But they haven't been changed since then. No, they have not. So be uh being a a fellow homeowner uh in on Hawthorne Lake and Nancy knowing that I was both an architect and engineer, she came to me and uh proposed uh improving her home to to uh basically give her proper uh facilities on on the living level. Um also she has her laundry her laundry facilities are also down in the dirt basement. So we came up with the uh with the plan. Um since the dawn of COVID obviously many people work from home. Her her adult son and daughter uh both uh have that capability. So she was interested in in adding a home office where they would be able to come you know during the summer and work from there and then improve the home by adding the laundry facilities upstairs as well as excuse me uh a full bath. So that's that's basically what we came up with with the small addition. The 305 square feet will contain a small hallway with an entry door. Uh a long a little laundry area of the full bath and then a home office and the the addition will not be used as a bedroom or anything of the type. As far as I know, no. That is is a home office. The intent is the intent is to be a home office. Do you have architectural plans with with that, sir? I do there are two I did bring two copies and again I said I apologize that they are so small if they were submitted with the application though did everyone get the the plans and the applications I just want to identify the uh the um date on those

5 latest revision. Okay. You want the full copy? Looks like Richard has it. I have a pair I have a pair of readers if anyone needs them. I don't want to get too Yeah, I was traveling. I was like, I'll go back to my That one's on me, not on Nancy. The small plan. Yeah, you have the 11 by 17. You want to go grab the explanation? Yes. Uh, as I said, it's a 305 foot addition. Uh the on the lake side of the home, that's where the home office will be. Um it'll be separated by a small entry hallway with a co- closet. Um being built in the early 1930s, the the home is does not have many closets to, you know, put anything in quite honestly. Uh and then on the other side of the hallway, there's a small laundry facility that'll have a a stacked washer and dryer. Excuse me. What page was uh was that feeling? A I think it's A100. J1 I A1 A1 Absolutely. Um as I said there there'll be a small uh you know stacked washer

and dryer uh laundry closet and then on the back on the back side of that will be the um standup shower um water closet and lavatory in the bathroom. Good question. Where where's the bedroom? There is no bedroom. No bedroom. No bedroom. Home office. Where's the existing bedroom? Oh, that they're in the the existing home. The the existing home is um is two stories. There's there three bedrooms upstairs. Oh, here. Yeah. Sorry, that only shows the addition. It doesn't show the the full home. There's going to be no uh adjustment of any walls or anything on the second floor. No, no, this is strictly a single story edition. I have another plan if anybody like I brought one more thing. Oh, we're good, Marissa. Thank you. You want it? You need it. Where are you going to be putting the deck? I don't see plans. We did not uh at the time that I did these, the deck

was not included. So, I do not have plans for the deck at this time. what they what do the expected deck look like? Uh it's it should be it's going to be located on the lakeside of the home and will extend out from the from the home office. What is the square footage of that? I believe it's 170. The new essentially you want to come up to come to the microphone please. Um the new deck will be essentially the size of the current deck. It's just pushed out a little bit. The front deck side side deck the front of the house is where the home office is or the the whole thing is going to be on the side of the house. Maybe you could explain a little bit better. We're not architects. You have to explain what's on these plans. So this this is the proposed addition in the dark gray home office located here. Small hallway passing through bathroom located on the back back corner and then the proposed deck will be to the side. And where's the road? The road is Maybe when we get to David's report a little bit. Are you ready, Mr. Chairman? No, not

when we get the lake. The lake is down here. Lake is south of north of the home office. Northeast of the home office. Excuse us. materials. I believe be composite wood.

Composite the exact I do not have the exact width and depth. Japanese. I think it's important to not be covered. Correct. No. No. Thank you. So, any other testimony to be submitted? Not at this time. You have any other comments you'd like to add? Um, I I would like a shower. I have a toilet and a sink in my house. I would like a shower in the house. Um, my kids live in Switzerland and Cambodia, uh, respectively, and they can come to the lake, uh, which I use three months out of the year for a couple weeks, and they can work from home, but my daughter has a one and a two-year-old, and they need an office to do that. So, I'm trying to provide that. It's pretty much it. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. I will open it to our board engineer, David, please, with your report. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, uh, for the record referring to the report, we prepared dated April 1st, 2025. As the applicant indicated,

they're basically doing the addition for an office deck and a bathroom. Going on to page two, uh, we are in the R our rural residential zone and as Mr. Hower pointed out earlier, we're on basically a 449 plus acre parcel of land. So, I agree with his own table that we're not near any property lines. So setbacks and what have you aren't an issue there because basically as I understand the development created many over a hundred years ago. Uh it's basically on one piece of property not separate individual lots. Uh with regards to access again this is one of those locations where you have to go someplace. You can't get there from here if you will. I actually had to go to Augsburg up Edison Road and then in about a mile and a half to in the gravel driveway to get to the subject property. Uh they are cutting down uh there are some existing dwellings as they pointed out. Uh again, the proposed disturbance is less than 5,000 square ft, but I do recommend because of the steepness of the lot and the close relative close proximity to Hawthorne Lake that they implement the soil er implement the soil erosion and sediment controls. And on Mr. Hower's plan, he does show a sill fence circumscribing the active area of the subject property. So, I believe that's appropriate in this particular case. Uh probably the biggest thing I'm concerned about on this is the access to the property and how it's handled on a year- round basis. Uh again, I literally when I left Edison Road and came into the subject property, it's about a mile and a half and it's basically a gravel driveway uh that varies in width primarily based on what I saw one vehicle wide. So, when we get to the end of my report, I'd like to hear some more testimony if it's all right with the

board, just how when the community is open, who's responsible for maintenance. Again, just worrying about emergency vehicles getting to the subject property, god forbid, if there was ever an emergency situation that should arise. Uh, I believe they do have to go to the highlands and hopefully will qualify for an exemption. Uh, with regards to the well and the septic, uh, again, Mr. Hower's firm did the, uh, updated septic system. I saw that when I was out there at the site, and there's no new bedrooms being added. And as the board chairman said, the porch is not going to be enclosed, so there shouldn't be any additional bedrooms or anything added on to that that would adversely impact the capacity of the septic system. There's electric to the site. With regards to storm drainage, Sparta Township does have their ordinance that if you're increasing the impervious by more than 500 square feet, you're supposed to provide mitigation, but in this case, between the deck and the addition, you're at about 449 square feet. Plus, you're right there by the lake, so mitigation isn't required by the ordinance in this particular case. Uh there's no new bedrooms being added. I did point out that one other improvement under the crawl space, the architectural plans call for a concrete slab, a rat slab to be poured under the house. So that's a good improvement. And my understanding and the applicant can confirm that there's no plans to utilize that crawl space other than for storage and access to the bottom of the house should it be necessary. Uh there was no EIS provided for the application, but again there was a plan that was submitted to the county health department to get the permits to upgrade the septic system on the subject property. And I reviewed with our wetlands person in our office the permit by rules that are noted on Mr. Hower's plan and we generally agree with them in

this particular case because of the proximity away from Hawthorne Lake. I noted some of the approvals that would be required the county health department just to verify the well and septic capacity for what they're doing to keep their records up to date. Obviously building permits from the township construction department. You've received a report from the fire department uh with regards to D. The permit by rules and the Highlands Council and as we do with most recommendations for most applications suggests that a asbuilt plan be provided upon completion of the project assuming the board grants favorable approval on it. But the biggest thing having said all that the applicants covered most of my points. The biggest thing I'd suggest the board hear more testimony on is the access to the site when it shut down for the winter or just how that operates in this facility because of uh being able to get emergency vehicles, god forbid, if there was an emergency. Sure, David. What did you think about the fire prevention report from fire department here in town? Ba basically I think the fire department realized is that as was testified here tonight for the first time that I heard I guess this was built uh established around 1895 I heard that date so we've been doing this for over a hundred years 130 years roughly uh and he realized that it's an existing situation with 20 some odd homes uh I won't say that geometrically there's it's not it's possible for a fire truck or emergency vehicle to maneuver around the corners and what have you. Uh, and I did not see any areas of the existing gravel driveway uh that were soft, if you will that would not support the weight of a of an emergency vehicle. Again, the concern I have is uh and I don't know as he brought it up or not in his report, what about the wintertime?

Is it plowed? Is is snow removal, ice and snow removal just so emergency vehicles can get in or is it in fact shut down for the wintertime and no one comes to the area? So that becomes a moot point. That's what we I think the board needs to hear about. Any other concerns of our board engineer if you can address them please? Yeah, this evening we have the vice president of the club here to discuss exactly that. Hi, Stephen Garcia. S T E P H N G A R C I A 21 Burn, New Jersey, and have a house at currently the vice president. Hey, David, can you move that microphone a little closer to the gentleman? Thank you. Is that better? Yeah. Yes. Do you swear affirm the testimony that you're about to give in this manship of the truth under penalties perjury? Yes. Thank you. So why don't you talk about what happens in the winter time with respect to the community? Sure. So in in the winter time we uh we close the gate. There are there are two residents who live at uh Hawthorne Park Club year round, but the remaining uh 27 other houses are largely unoccupied. Um so there's really very little activity at all up there between you know September and May um over the course of the year if if there is a snowtorm. So there's uh DVS plowing plows our roads when there's a snowstorm. So we have them on contract. They've done that work for us since before I was

treasurer. Um so for the last, you know, 15 or so years. Um and and they'll they plow for for every storm we have. So regardless of the fact that the majority of the homes are closed, they're still the roads are still maintained and open during the winter. Um the the plowing is goes about halfway around the lake. So, we don't plow the full distance around the lake, only to where the homes are occupied. Where the homes are over the course of the winter? Yes. Um, and what about the maintenance of the road itself? Who's responsible for that? And how often is the road? How do you determine that the roads are there? So um we have a we have a committee made up of members and and volunteers um that is responsible for maintaining the road. Uh the club makes periodic road improvements. Uh we assess members um for those road improvements and work uh with local contractors to you know anything that we can't handle oursel with our own tractor we um uh contract for that work to be done. Um, we have had the Sparta Fire Department has been up there before on those roads with their their big truck. Um, you know, uh, pumping water from the lake. Um, um, that's certainly happened in the last, you know, eight or so years. Um, and we do have, uh, you know, we're a tree farm, so we have to have really large timber trucks up there, um, that use the use the full road. Um, they're I don't I don't know their weight relative to a uh uh a firet truck, but they're, you know, very big and loaded with, you know, large trees. Okay. Thank you for that testimony. Sir, if you're so kind, could you have Mr. Garcia look at this for a few

seconds? Maybe he would address those. You want to identify what it is? The uh fire report from Okay. Thank you. Mr. Maybe you could address each one of those, sir. Sure. So, um, so I I I've not seen this before today, so um, we just got it today, so take your time to review it. Um, okay. So, I'm I'm I'm not familiar with the width of the road at all at all locations. Um, I' I'd have to, you know, I'd have to go and and check that. That's um certainly, you know, two cars can um pass each other on the road. I mean that that's a frequent occurrence. Um so uh I'd have to check and see though exactly how many feet it is at various points. So um so that's in reference to the first bullet, but I I do know it's at least two cars wide. Um I'm I'm not sure about the imposed loads from the fire trucks. to bold point number two. I don't know exactly what that um um you know those loads would be. Again, we do have the the timber trucks up there which are as big as uh as as a fire truck and loaded with uh you know really large uh trees. And when we when we've done the septic systems up there, you know, we have big back hose and gravel trucks, you know, that are are bringing gravel in. So, I'd have to think that the roads are capable of of supporting those those loads. Um,

uh, if if the board look kindly upon the application this evening, would you be open to the possibility of a fire truck coming up there to make sure that they can access all areas of the community? Yeah. Um, and that the roads are supportive of the weight of the fire trucks. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I think I think it's in the members interest that the fire trucks can access. And in the event that there there was an issue found, would you would you maintain the road or correct that issue on the road uh to accommodate the fire truck? Um, so so it would it would require a a vote of the membership, but I feel confident that the membership would vote in favor of ensuring that, you know, emergency vehicles of all types can reach whatever house needs those services, you know, as quickly as possible. Attorney, I don't know that we can compel the the association to do anything. Uh I think that maybe what you can do is condition any uh condition the approval upon the fire department being satisfied as to the access and leave it up. If fire department is not satisfied and they don't make the the association doesn't make the improvements then the applicant can't move forward with her with her addition. I I think that's acceptable to my client. Absolutely. It's it's for the benefit of all. That's acceptable Nancy. Thank you, Mr. Garcia. Sure. David, now you had some comments on their responses to uh my understanding, Mr. Chairman, is that for the most part, uh the roadways are not going to be open in the wintertime. uh with the exception of a couple of houses and access in the wintertime to those two houses would be provided by a contractor who would be pro some snow plowing and sanding and salting the road for them to get

emergency access. My wait I then I understood it differently than you did. Didn't I thought they was said that the roads are plowed up until the lake to so there's access to all the houses. It's it's the two homes. Um, I think the testimony was that there there are two homes that are year round and it's plowed up to access of those two homes, not the remaining homes that are not accessed. That's that's the correct. Yeah, that's correct. It's becomes an issue with the if there's an emergency, fire emergency or something at one of the other homes separate from the homes that are occupied like the unoccupied home. there's a fire, you know, what is that going to do? The fire department can't get there. So, I I might need to talk to my client about that. Uh that might be something that uh they have to take back to their board as well. All right. Well, I I I don't mean to speak for the board. Uh and I know your client came in from out of town and it's a major travel for her. Uh but you know what the board may what the board may want to consider is finishing all the testimony tonight and not taking action tonight uh and allowing the the applicant through her attorneys and her professionals to investigate this further and come back to a a a subsequent meeting to uh to address these issues. I agree with you, Mr. Karp. It's up to the board, but I just uh I just I do just want to point out that the last paragraph in the fire department's letter uh where it where it notes in bold print that the following are only recommendations and should not be a deciding factor in the approval or denial of the application their words. Um I just want to make note of that in case it wasn't clear for everybody. Thank you. Because if if we're going to punt to the fire department to

investigate and make it a condition of approval, I I think that puts them in a position they are sort of outlining here they don't want to be in. something they might have to get involved with since it could something could happen up there and I think you understand. Yeah. Can I have a moment to speak with my client just There's no way that sharp It is not mention the amount of All right.

sounded like she does everything. All right. Sorry for the delay. Thank you for your accommodation. Um, so yeah, we'll we'll have to go to the board uh to discuss the matter in further detail and we'll have to uh talk to the fire marshall again about this. Um, we were hoping not to have to uh plow to the end of the road because nobody's living in those homes, but uh we'll talk to the board. We'll talk to the fire marshall and see what he says. That would be great. Okay. And then your applicant will not have to come back. Our attorney if you want to explain that one more time to the public. Yeah. What what we're to we understand that the applicant is coming in from out of town and it's a major undertaking. So what what I had said uh what board what we're suggest what I'm suggesting is that you finish the testimonies particularly if your client will open to the public tonight uh so that she doesn't necessarily have to come back but you bring the professionals back who who are more local uh with whatever you have at the next meeting we'll carry it to the next meeting without notice and if you're not ready for the next meeting we can continue to carry it I suppose to subsequent meetings let me just let me just finish then then you and and uh then they can vote at that the board can vote at that time to give you the chance to work this out because u to me it's it's it's a concern just if the fire department if a house burns down the fire starts in a house and it could be because of electrical you know short or something like that I don't know how it's how it's heated or well it has to be heated I guess for the water unless you have uh yeah I think they're shut down they are shut down the pipes are are cleared and they're closed for the winter. But electricity turned off also. I I I assume at the breaker box, but but I can I I'll find all those answers out. Yeah. And and I mean, if you're 200, 300, 400 feet away from the

next house and and there's testimony that that it can cause a problem, then that may be a factor. Also, you know, when you're on 60 foot lots and the houses are so close to each other, fire is a is a concern. Yep. We'll we'll we'll we'll deal with it. Okay. We understand the issue. Um is there are there any other questions for our experts? Your applicant answer, you want to say something or not? Say that um there's no HVAC in any of the homes around me. All the um pipes are drained and the power is turned off. So is the power still in the in the line the overhead lines? I'm sure. Yeah. So that's you know you know get a squirrel up there that's that start something causes embers to fly and starts the house on fire. You know things like that. Okay. You know I and it's more Yeah. I don't Yeah. I don't I don't want to get off. Let's let let's just we'll we'll kick it down the road and we'll take care of it at at the next meeting. I think I'll have a better uh handle on it. We only got the report today. So understood. Marissa, when's the next meeting in May, please? Uh May 14th. May 14th. So, you're okay for the application to be carried to May 14th. That's okay. I I think that we'll be able to clear up the uh experts testimony this evening unless uh Mr. Hower might need to come back for engineering purposes regarding the fire, but other than that, we won't need the architect. Right. Well, um, what I'm, again, I'm not talking for the board, but, uh, you may want to bring it back with with a plan to show the deck that's not on the existing plans. Sure. And that will certainly make it easier for the board to to to I I can tell you I will not be available on the 14th be on a boat in Good for you. You do you want them to does the board

want them to add the uh deck to show the plans? Right, David? Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Do you want to carry this to June then? If if you need me here, I mean, I will submit the I will submit plans for the deck, a revised revised plan, but if I if you feel that I'm going to need testimony, I'm not going to be able to intervene. What do you think of that? Do it right. Yeah. our our engineer can go over the plans, the deck plans. Good. Yeah. Yes. Make carry. So, why why don't we finish the testimony tonight? Especially for for for Mr. uh Colton and for for Mrs. Ms. uh Hodkins uh and let the public ask any questions and then then you know if if you if unless there's anything else that Mr. asking wants to add um we can you can journ'll carry it to the meeting of May 14th without further notice. I think everything was covered tonight for the time being. Yes. All right. Anything else? All right. I think the board should ask questions and open it to the public. I said the board have any other questions or I think you were all okay, right? I have some question. Oh, you Marissa, if you can call on the board members, please. Sure. Elon Tererry. Um, no question in particular about the actual proposal, the plan, just on the concept of when you guys come back. Um, I don't know the protocol. Maybe this is just a general question, but when we're dealing with municipalities that are nearby and could have to use their services, what's the protocol for maybe getting a report from a neighboring municipality as well? It should be covered. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. No, that's a great question because Ogdensburg has been the ones to respond to any uh emergency calls. So, what I'll do with that question because I think it's very valid, I will go to Ogdensburg

and I will confirm as well. Thank you, sir. Y that's all I have. Michael Jac. Yeah. So, again on the whole fire safety um situation, so you're saying Ogdensburg is the department that responds uh sometimes. Yes. most recently Ogdensburg were the ones that responded and if it is sparted do you know I mean I don't know do do they have like a plan or like um you know from what direction they approached the prop I mean the Hawthorne Lake because I know if you come from I I don't know the direction but from the top of Edison road I mean from a fire truck coming from the station on Glenn going down Ed I mean you're talking the amount of time and then once you get to the Hawthorne Lake to make that left turn I can't imagine how it does that um So that's why I was curious as to is it Ogdensburg and they're the ones primarily responsible. So I I'll contact both fire departments and maybe I'll be able to meet them out there that we can, you know, look at the circumstances and and further discuss it. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Michael Leandi. Nothing else for me. Thank you, Mr. Roar Backer. No questions at this time. Chairman Kenneth Larry. No questions. Marissa. Okay. I'll now open it to the public. Anyone has any comments or questions, please come forward. Now close to the public and back to the board. And as we are doing and applications being carried to the May meeting without any further notice. Okay, gentlemen. Yes. Thank you very much, everyone. Really appreciate it. You're welcome. The board will entertain a motion to adjurnn. So move. Second, please. Second. All in favor? I. Thank you, David. Thank you for your reports tonight and everything. Mr. Chairman and board members, I'd just like to thank you for the new table.