Zoning Board Meetings - Regular Meeting

New business will be conducted after 9:30 p.m. and this meeting will adjourn at 10 p.m. sharp. It's also being livereamed on YouTube. Adequate notice of this meeting was provided in the New Jersey Herald. It was also posted on the Township website and its bulletin board in accordance with all provisions of the Open Public Meetings Act. Also, formal action may or may or may not be taken tonight on the applications being heard here. Practice of this board to salute the flag. Please rise and join us. Pledge allegiance to the flag states of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Marissa, please call the role.

Michael Jophic here. Richard Larufa here. Michael Leondi here. Richard Roarbacker here. Michael Steinberg here. Chairman Kenneth Larry here. Brian Romanowski here. Isabella Ardone here. Steve Tobalakian here. Thank you. We have one resolution to be memorialized. The chair will entertain a motion to memorialize application 7-25 66 Woodport LLC decided on February 11, 2026 in denial of the variance. So moved. Second, please. Second. Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jik,

yes. Richard Larufa, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. And just for the record, from here on tonight with this application, 66 Woodport LLC, all Dvariances that are memorialized here by this board will be forwarded to the mayor, deputy mayor, and the town council in regards to see the reasons why these applications are either denied or approved. And again, applies only to Dvariances. And Marissa, like I said, you'll be able to forward this one. Yes.

Tonight. Thank you. Applications to be heard tonight. 16-25 Sparta Main Street LLC, which was carried with no further notice from the last meeting for D1 variance since child care facilities are not permitted in the zone. Also 1425, Pat McGuran for C variance relief. And the last one, application 126, Brian Patnia for C variance relief. After the applications are heard, I'll open this hearing to the public for any comments or questions you may have on items not on this agenda tonight. 1625 Sparta Main Street LLC, please come forward. Mr. Feldman, you know it's a D variance. You'll need five affirmative votes to approve it. If it's approved, it'll be tied to the land in perpetuity. Also, after you complete your applicants testimony, our professional planner and engineer will give their reports. Then this board members who have questions will go next. After we're finished, members of the public who have questions, comments will go next.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. Understood. Thank you. And please, as usual, speak clearly and directly into the microphone since it's a state requirement. We have a recording of all proceedings. Thank you.

First of all, thank you for having us back this evening. Uh since the last hearing, we have submitted some additional submissions in support of our application which will be testifying to this evening. Uh just one uh housekeeping item at the last hearing there were some questions raised regarding whether at any point in time this property was a somehow conditioned upon uh parking for the church. Uh we did an open request uh to both for both the church and for this instant property and I have personally reviewed all the prior approvals. I did not see anything in those prior approvals concerning uh requirements having parking on this site. I have submitted those uh prior approvals to uh the board council and and also I've spoken directly with the council for the church and they also have confirmed that I'm not aware of any prior agreements recorded or otherwise concerning parking on this site.

All right. Thank you. Uh tonight we have back almost all of our witnesses from a prior hearing and we have one new one as well. So we'll go right into testimony if there's any questions. All right, you can proceed. Great. Thank you. And then um you'll be able to swear them in if you don't mind. Thank you. All right. Were you Were you previously sworn at the So this is a brand new witness like to introduce Melissa Rodriguez. Okay. Well, raise your right hand, please. Mr. Rodriguez, do you swear from that any testimony you provide before the board this evening will be the truth? Yes. Can you please identify yourself for the record? Melissa Rodriguez. Thank you. All right, Miss Rodriguez, can you please explain who you are and what your role is?

My name is Melissa Rodriguez. Excuse me. Melissa, could you use the microphone, please? Yes. My name is Melissa Rodriguez. I am the regional manager for corporate operations with the learning experience. I have been with the company for eight years and I have 15 years of experience in early childhood education. And if you if you could just explain one more time who to learn experience is the learning experience um has been around for over 20 years. We are early child care learning center. We have um over 400 schools and we have more under development. I currently oversee 24 locations in north and central New Jersey. Um, we really believe that we are here to provide for families.

Okay. And what is your exact title at learning experience? Regional manager. And when you say regional manager, are you directly managing all 24 locations? No, I oversee them. Every center has their own franchisee. Um, and then each center has their own leadership team, assistant director and director that oversee and meets New Jersey state qualifications. And these 24 locations, where are they generally located? all in north or central New Jersey. Okay. And if this location was ultimately approved and built, would you be overseeing this particular location here in Sparta? Yes, because the franchisee has seven other locations that I oversee um in northern New Jersey. And when you say franchisee, can you explain what that means in this context?

Yeah, so every um location has their own franchises. So they're not ran by corporate. They have the support of corporate. We use corporate's curriculum, but they are the owners of that location. And when you say corporate, do you mean the learning experience corporate? Yes, the learning experience corporate. Does the learning experience corporate also run some of his own centers directly? Yes, they do have some centers. They have three in New Jersey at the time. Okay. Before you started working at learning experience, uh did you have any other background in childare? No, I've been in child care since I've been a senior in college. I stepped right into a director role at that time, but when I was early on, I was a teacher, assistant teacher, and worked my way up from there. Okay. And where were those those locations where you where you were a childcare teacher?

Um, Saddle Brook, New Jersey. Okay. Uh, are you married? I am married. I have two kids that attended the learning experience, a nine-year-old and a six-year-old, and they both are well above their grade level, and I give the credit to the learning experience as nine out of 10 of our children leave the learning experience reading at a kindergarten grade level. All right. Um, how many locations does the learning experience have nationally? approximately approximately 460 with more in development and about 70 of them are in New Jersey. All right. Now, is each location location licensed in any way or in some way? Yes, they're all licensed by the state of New Jersey and specifically which department in the state of New Jersey?

Um, child ser child family services. Okay. Is it also known as department of of children and families? Yes. Department of Children and Families and everybody is background checked and fingerprinted as well. Okay. Is each location licensed? Yes. Okay. Can a center open before it's licensed? No, we do not open any centers without having a full license. Okay. And what are the age of the students? And if you don't mind when I when I ask that question, could you walk us through the different classrooms and what the ages are for those classrooms?

Yes. So, we have infants, which is six weeks. We take six weeks on um because most parents do have to go back at six weeks old. Um 6 weeks to 18 months is our infant age group. 18 to 24 months is our toddler age group. And then we have our toddler age group, which is two to two and a half. And then at two and a half, we have our preppers, which goes till 3 years old. And we really focus on potty training in there. And then 3 to 5, we have preschoolers. Most of our buildings are licensed to 13, so we can have summer camp and help families in need for the months where there are no school. Okay. And what are the hours of operation uh for the center? Typically 6:30 6:30 6:30 Monday through Friday.

All right. Are you generally open on weekends? No, we are not generally open on the weekends. Okay. And uh if you don't mind, just walk us through the morning drop off. That is from the point upon which a parent uh enters the driveway to the center. What happens?

So the parents will arrive in the parking lot. They will put their car in park. They will turn off their cars. We have a strict policy on that. They will walk their child into the building. We have a key fob uh core access which allows them to enter the building from their phone. Um and then they will clock their child in on our paper and computer logs. And then from there they will drop them off in the classrooms. When they're dropping them off in the classrooms, they're there for maybe 5 to 8 minutes max. And then they'll leave and the children will stay with us for until 3 or 6 p.m. somewhere in that range. So to be clear, the only way you're going to enter the premises if if you have uh this this fob this access. Yep. You need full access for to enter the facility.

And is all that tracked on some sort of uh database which keeps track of who's coming in out of the building? Yes. Okay. Can you then uh sort of do the same exact thing in regard to the evening drop off that evening u pickup? Pickup. Thank you. Is it essentially the same concept? Evening pickup is the same concept, but we do allow our families a little extra time if needed to have conversations with the teachers or the admin. So pickup procedure is exactly the same way. They'll park, they'll go inside using their key system, they'll clock their child out, they'll get their little learner, and then they'll leave the facility. We do allow them time to speak with admin or teachers. Like I said, usually max of eight minutes every families in there.

Okay. There some questions about staff and environments. Um does DCF or uh require certain uh staffing inside a center? Yes. So everybody has to be fingerprinted and background checked and cleared by the state of New Jersey before they could be left alone with any children. Right. And is there a certain number of uh staff assigned to each classroom? Yeah. So we follow all state New Jersey ratios. So 1 to four for our infants, 1 to six for our toddlers, our and our toddlers. preppers in preschool is a 1 to 10 or 1 to 12 depending what age bracket they're in. Assuming the school is is generally uh well occupied, what is the approximate number of of staff?

Um it really all depends whether they're younger kid heavy or older kid heavy. Um generally we have like 25 to 30 when we're at 80% occupancy or higher. Okay. Uh is there a playground associated uh with the center? Yes, so we do have two playgrounds at all of our locations. We have a smaller playground and a larger playground. We make sure that all the equipment is vetted out and is age appropriate for the children to go on. So we have one that goes from 6 weeks to two and a half and then one that goes from a two and a half to um the preschool school age. Are they physically right next to each other? Generally, yes, we put them next to each other and there's usually a fence in between them.

Okay. And can you explain the cadence on how the students go into the playground area? So, usually there's a door that leads right into the playground. Um, they will go out twice a day, once in the morning, once in the afternoon, weather permitting. We follow all state guidelines. And we don't mix any classes. So, the toddler class will only go out toddler class. Preschool class will be on their side on only the preschool side. So, each class goes out one at a time. One at a time. There might be two classes out at a time, but they're on separate playgrounds. So within each individual playground, there's just one class or uh are are the playground uh supervised? Are they staffed?

Yep, we follow the same ratios that we do follow for inside. Um we make sure the children are constantly supervised, teachers are trained um how to walk around the playground so they can see all children at all times. So if there are two teachers assigned to a classroom, they're going to be out with the students in the playground as well. Yes. The same the same teachers typically. Same teachers. Okay. Let me ask you some questions about busing. Uh at the last hearing, a question was raised whether uh there would be a need to have busing uh from uh the local school district uh for afternoon programs. Is that something that is uh contemplated here?

No, these franchises have no um plans to do afterare. Um they just have plans for normal care Monday through Friday.

Okay. Thank you so much. Marissa. Um I'm sorry, Melissa. Uh at the last hearing there was some testimony regarding uh the need of the center to have uh loading spaces, two loading spaces and the criteria under the ordinance is that whether the uh the center will be in a routine manner receiving supplies or materials. So I guess the the big question uh is generally do the does the center receive receive supplies and materials uh in in an ordered course of business?

They get daily lunch served Monday through f uh Monday through Thursday and it's just the van that you see in picture one. This franchisee did take um this picture from one of their other centers. They'll be using the same vendor. All right. So let's me first mark if you don't mind. So I believe and I apologize this may be A6 remark this is A6 and just describe what this is this document that will be the van that will deliver the hotline. No well the document in general if you could describe what it is. Oh the learn the vehicle.

Yeah. So, if if I may, this document is uh is a March 10, 2026 uh document has two photos on it and it's entitled vehicle vehicle exhibit. So, looking at the top photograph, can you describe uh what the top photograph is? That would be just for a lunch delivery. It will arrive between 10:30 and 10:45 Monday through Thursday. They'll be in the center for less than 5 minutes. They drop it off into the pantry and they're on their way. Journey, what time does this uh van come to the property? Between 10:30 and 10:45. All right. Is that typically a busy time at uh in the parking area? No. Okay. Uh can you describe what is the uh the bottom photograph?

The bottom photograph is usually delivered on a monthly and it's just toiletry. So paper towels, toilet paper, maybe some snacks here and there. Um and they keep it to a monthly order. All right. So just to in summation, you have a top photograph which represents uh a daily delivery of food service to the property at approximately 10:30 in the morning. Correct. And the bottom photograph represents a one-time monthly delivery of other items associated with the pantry. Correct. All right, Mr. Felman, could you just hold that up for the back there so they could just

take a quick look if you don't mind? Thank you, Mr. Felman. All right, Melissa, can you speak to the concept of license capacity and what that means?

So, license capacity is how many children could be in the building at each time. Every classroom has their own measurements. Um generally our buildings um are licensed for I believe this one is 158 children if the plans go as documented. And who determines license capacity ultimately licensing they'll come out and do a final measurement before they give us the license. And when you say licensing what does that mean again? The New Jersey family children and family. So New Jersey DCF. Yes. Okay. Great. Uh so this building will be licensed at 158. Can you have more than 158 students in this building?

No, we would be maxed out at 158 students. Okay. Is license capacity the same as enrollment? No, they are not the same. Enrollment is one number and license capacity is a different number. License capacity is what can be in the center at the time. So could en rollment be less? Enrollment be less than that? Yes. And why is that? um because not it's very hard to get all of your classrooms to 100% occupancy at all times. We have part-time options um three days and half day options. All right. So, you've established that enrollment could potentially be less than license capacity. Is actual occupancy on any given day uh potentially less than enrollment? Yes.

Okay. And why is that? just based on generally 10% of children don't attend due to vacation, summer or scheduling. Okay. So on any given day you're enrolled at some number but only certain numbers show up. Is that correct? Correct. All right. Of the number that show up the the actual occupancy does each is each student represent a car trip? No, because you have siblings, you have some families that have nannies that bring multiple different families. So it's not per car trip. Okay, great. Just going to ask a couple questions regarding uh how TOE chose this location. Can you does the TOE uh go through a process in determining which location to open up a new center?

Yes. All right. And does the TOE sorry the learning experience look at market conditions? Yes, they absolutely do. All right. Uh do they look into um whether there's other providers in the area competitions so to speak? They do. All right. Do they look at the demographics of the community? Yes. All right. As part of demographics, do what do they look at? Let's say hypothetically uh uh income uh ratio, household income. Yes, we do take that into consideration because we want to make sure the families that we are going to be serving can afford our care.

Right. And based upon this uh I'm sorry, was this actually done? Was this analysis done for this particular location? Yes, it was completed. And based upon this, does TOE expect to have successful operation at this location? We do. All right. Have no further questions.

All right. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you, Mr. Feldman. You could call your next professional. Yeah, Cheryl. Miss Schwaker has previously testified, so she's been sworn in already. Would you please identify herself for the record and acknowledge she remains under oath? Okay. Uh, Cheryl Schwiger. And you you acknowledge your remainer.

Yes. Thank you. All right. Uh and excuse me. Can the public see what Cheryl has up there? If not, come a little closer. Maybe can see it. All right. Thank you. One you can do over here. No, that's fine. So the rest of our members over here in the corner could see it. Mr. Felman. Maybe a little bit more to Brian and Isabella there. Cheryl at the same time keeping it in perspective with the public. Back like that. Brian, Isabella, Rich, you can see it. All right. Thank you, too. All right. Thank you. Between that and the blueprints, I think they're okay.

All right. Yes, they match the submission. Carol, in this evening, will you be using any uh new exhibits in support of your application? Uh the two exhibits I have were part of the resubmission that we made. All right. So these can you identify them? Sure. So we have SA3.2 dated February 18th, the proposed elevations. Okay. And just for the record, this was part of our resubmission on February 27, 2026. Correct. And then a second one, please, if you just identify it. We have SA3.4 uh proposed signage also dated February 18th.

Okay. Again, this is part of our submission on February 27, 2026. All right. Uh can you speak uh to uh using uh SA 32? Thank you. Yes. Uh what new changes have occurred since the prior plan? Sure. So there were um two items that we um took into consideration on our last meeting. One was the long roof on both sides, the south and north elevations. So we went ahead and added several dormers similar to what's already shown on the west elevation to help break that up. And how many specifically on on each uh side?

Four on each side for a total of eight. So four on the south side. Is that correct? That's correct. And four on the north side. Is that correct? Okay. And these are uh aesthetic in nature, correct? They don't serve any specific No. No. It's primarily a aesthetic. All right. Uh could you describe how this changes the aesthetics of the building? So, this breaks up the long roof spans that we have on these elevations because we have a long narrow building and it'll help break up that long large roof area. All right. Are you generally u aware of the design elements of the Main Street Quarter? Yes. All right. Would you describe these changes as uh consistent with the Main Street Quarter? Yes.

All right. And do you think it enhances the building in a way that is consistent with the Main Street Quarter? Absolutely. Okay. All right. Can you uh show us the next exhibit, please? Sure. So, the other revision that we made was regarding signage. I know there was a lot of discussion on signage. So we removed all signage and um any column signage on the parking lot side. So there are no longer any identifying markers on this side by the main entrance. So previously what was located at that spot? Sure. So in the gable we had uh the large learning experience sign with their mascot and then on the columns we had their ABC123 blocks and those have been removed. So at this point is there any signage on the vera property? No.

Okay. Uh can you speak to the uh remaining signage then? Sure. So the signage on the main street elevation, the west elevation, we've left the uh learning experience and bubble signage. However, we've changed it to be externally illuminated instead of internally illuminated. So it'll have a series of gooseenecks down lighting onto the sign. And um we just clarified some of the square footages as it relates to the ABC123 blocks. Okay. Is there any other signage uh on the property? Uh there is a monument sign, but there has been no changes to that from the previous submission. I know you're not the site engine. Do you have do you have a copy of the site plan here?

Uh site plan. Yes. Is it right here? All right. So, some of the review letters had some questions regarding the location of the monument sign. And just for the record, one more time, can you point physically point to location where the monument sign is located? Right here. Okay. Can everyone see that?

Okay. And can you using the the site plan, can you show uh the depiction of the monument sign itself? Right here there's masonry signage. And and has that changed in any way? No. And uh how is that sign lit? Uh ground lit. Okay. So at this point uh you testified there's the uh the building frontage signage and then which is gooseeneck lit and then the uh the ground the malignment sign which is ground lit. Is that correct? Correct. And aside from those two signs, are there any signs on the property? No. Okay. Do you see? Sure.

You want to hand that out? The other comment we got was questioning the uh HVAC and where it would be located on the roof. And I know it's difficult to tell from the elevations we have prepared. Um, and as I described in the previous hearing, we're creating a well for the equipment to sit in behind this manered roof. So, I prepared an exhibit um that's being passed around of some other locations that we've done with the learning experience of some aerial photographs of completed centers where you can see the roof construction and how that HVAC equipment will be hidden from view. All right. So, you you've testified that of course it's it's not on it's not on the site itself. It's located on the roof and using the how we described this technique the uh

the manser roof the manser roof it's essentially shielded from sight uh from virtually every angle. Yes. Okay. What's the approximate height of the top of the of the mansard so the building height is 23 feet and the mansard uh generally varies between 6 and 7 feet. So it' be very difficult to see uh the HVH unit from any angle. Correct. Okay.

All right. Uh going back to the site plan one more time if you don't mind. And can you identify them the this site plan? Okay. Thank you. Uh can you just point out where the playground is located in the rear? Okay. And uh already there's been some testimony regarding let's call the playground operations, how the students uh move to the playground, how they're staffed, but if you could provide uh some detail as to the the way it's physically designed, the equipment on site, uh any special safety uh aspects of the equipment?

Sure. So the equipment will have fall zones around it. So there will be um soft surfacing underneath the artificial turf in a 6ft perimeter around the equipment that's over a certain height which is required by licensing and they'll inspect the equipment and they actually physically put stickers on the equipment saying that it's safe for children. All right. Is there are there any things to protect the students from let's say the sun? So, there are two awnings uh with picnic pads on the rear of the facility uh that will provide shade areas. All right. Uh are there any uh water uh outlets for the students?

Uh we have some drinking fountains and some hose bibs. And is the playground uh secured? Yes, there's a sixoot solid fence that surrounds the playground. All right. And um and one more time if you can just point to using the site plan where the students will be coming out of to enter the playground. Sure. So there's an internal corridor in this area where the children will walk out, exit into the playground, and they'll use the appropriate playground uh equipment based on their age. Okay. All right. Thank you. No further questions. All right. Thank you, Cheryl.

Thank you. Mr. Der has already been sworn in. Owen, do you acknowledge your remain on oath? I do. Thank you. Good evening. Um, Owen, can you uh briefly describe uh any uh new plans that you'll be testifying to this evening?

Sure. I'll put up uh this this exhibit was submitted as part of the application is called um what did I call it? Proposed marking parking and landscape modification exhibit. All right. And just for the record, it's the uh was submitted as part of our residdle on February 27th uh 2026. Yeah. The only difference is this one's twice as size so you can see it.

Thank you. All right. We So for the record, uh, Mr. Chairman, this represents a a part of the exhibit will show a new parking plan that we're proposing. Uh, we we wanted to give the board um the flexibility of of of this plan. We think it's we think it's potentially a better plan, but we we're we're sort of trying to get some feedback from the board as well what how they view uh the amount of parking that would be necessary. Uh the plan does create uh a parking variance when when we do this. But so I want to just point that out. But nonetheless, we we overall do support uh this this concept.

Yeah. So, the change to the parking is primarily the seven spaces located at the rear of the parking lot have been removed. Um, if you'll recall the last time we were here, the traffic consultant mentioned that based on their studies of TLE, the maximum number of spaces they required physically like at any point in time was 26 spaces. This would bring this down to 42 spaces. So, it's significantly more than that. The TLE corporate requires a minimum of 40 spaces. So it's under it still meets that requirement. So we felt this was appropriate. It would be a variance though to remove the seven spaces to go from 49 required to 42 required. So

if the variance was an issue with the board, we'd leave them because we don't want to create a um situation where we have a variance that the board doesn't support. But if excuse me, this this plan is different than the one we saw at the last meeting. It's exactly the same. The only difference is the seven spaces here. Okay. I'm just want And that's been submitted as that's submitted through Yeah. We we didn't get to see that this it was submitted as the part of our package this recent one. Yes. Together with the pack, huh? It wasn't together with the plan. I saw I saw the architectural plans. I don't recall seeing this, but okay. Go ahead. I understand what you're saying. That's fine. As long as it's been submitted, that's fine.

Yeah. The only other difference is we added some additional landscaping. We added a landscape buffer along the southerntherly side, a 5- foot wide um evergreen buffer there, and also a landscape buffer along the westerly uh property line adjacent to the neighboring garage. In addition, can you uh tell us how wide that buffer is along the property lines?

There's 8t between the property line and the parking area. Um the buffer will be five feet the actual um shrubbery in both locations. Um, in addition, we added some additional we relocated the um we had cleared more trees here to make room for that seven spaces. We moved those trees that were in that location forward, the proposed ones. So, it created a bigger buffer between the rear property and this. And then also, we added one more row of uh um evergreen trees here in order to create a better buffer there. Currently, there's a parking lot and the paved area 21 ft off this property line. This will bring the nearest part of the parking lot to um 60 ft. So, it'll add an additional buffer of approximately 38 ft from where it is currently.

So, at the moment, current condition has the existing parking lot at 21 ft off the line. 22. Yes. 22 feet. And uh what will be the new the parking lot uh now? um 60 ft at this corner. At that corner and if you don't mind just can you point out to the board you know just be uh where the existing let's call that the south um south uh east corner of the property. Okay. Uh uh where right and then um just south of the new plantings. Can you point out what that is? that that that looks that that a racetrack looking uh this Oh, this is a storm water um

uh water basin, just an infiltration basin. Okay. So, so no improvements in that area, just just

Yeah, it's basically we'll have these trees, we'll have a lawn, we'll have this, it's basically a rain garden, so it's a landscaped area and then the fence. So, we have a significant buffer between the existing um town houses, significantly more than the 21 ft that is there now. And and what is the distance approximately from the the rear property line to the fence of the playground? It's a little over 100 feet.

Okay. Can you point out using that plan where the refu area is? Sure. The refu area is at the end of the main access aisle. Okay. And uh do you recall whether their experience uses a public hauler or private hauler? They use a private hauler to pick up the refues here. All right. And will private horror be able to safely uh navigate this parking lot and access that refuge?

Yeah, it's an ideal situation for refuge pickup. A front loading garbage truck can pull straight in, back up, and then loop around the parking lot and out. When it's doing so, would uh in a material way block any parking spaces for the two minutes it's actually unloading uh the trash cans? Yes. But it's a very short period of time. Okay. All right. Can you speak to the uh environmental impact statement that was uh initially submitted um in conjunction with the application uh in December?

Sure. The original environmental impact statement had an operations statement in it that was kind of a boilerplate TLE and then as was requested by the board, we had that updated to include it to be specific to this site. So when you so as part of our resubmitt on February 27th, 2026, what changed uh in the environmental impact statement? It just was very specific to the number of students because they were approximate in the original one and this was the I think it was 158 students and all of the timing and things were a function of that.

Okay. So there was some updates on in a couple pages and just for the record, Mr. Chairman, those pages were uh 11 through 15 of the environmental impact statement. So the rest of the documents stayed exactly the same. All right. Um have you reviewed the uh newest view letters from uh the township planner and township engineer? I have. All right. Is there anything in there that uh uh would be a problem for us to comply with? There's nothing that we haven't responded to already. And you you generally agree with the recommendations therein. Yeah, we had provided a response letter and that still maintains all our responses. Okay. All right. No further questions.

All right. Thank you, Owen. And anyone else? Mr. Felm, I think you have the updated traffic report too, right? Is that uh Yes. Engineer here? Yes. Okay, good. So for the record, uh at the previous hearing, Matt Seckler from uh his firm Stonefield Engineering testified. This is John Korak, uh who's also uh from Stonefield Engineering, who will be a colleague of Mr. Seckler who will be providing testimony uh in furtherance of the previous testimony. So John, you have to be sworn in correct this evening. Mr. Craig, do you swear from that any testimony you provide before the board this evening will be the truth?

I do. Can you please state and spell your name for the record? It's John Cororak. Last name spelled C O R A K. Thank you. All right, Mr. Crock. Can you um give us your background uh your education, your experience? Of course. I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey. Have a bachelor of science in civil engineering from the College of New Jersey. I'm an expert in the field of traffic and transportation engineering. I've prepared over 250 traffic studies for land development applications. I've testified before over 100 boards uh throughout the state. Um I also serve as board expert for a handful of municipalities and my license is current and in good standing. Mr. Chairman, I move that he be admitted as an expert in traffic. Sure.

Thank you. Any questions from the board on that? Um professional? No. All right. Proceed. Thank you. All right. John, have you reviewed uh the previous reports submitted by Stonefield Engineering in support of this application? Reviewed and prepared? Yes. You prepared them as well? Yes. I'm the other signature on the cover. Oh, that makes it even easier. Okay. So, you incorporate those reports as your own. Yes. And at the previous hearing, Matt Seckler from your from your firm testified. Is that correct? Correct. All right. Are you generally aware of his testimony? Yes. And you're generally aware of his findings and conclusions? Yes. All right. Do you incorporate uh his findings and conclusions as though of your own? I do.

Okay. uh can you walk us through uh carefully uh the various reports that have been submitted in connection with this application? And we're going to do let them do them one at a time if that's okay. Okay. Okay. So I I believe there was report September 12, 2026 dated September 12, 2025. 2025. Apologies. Correct. All right. And we're going to call that report number one. Okay. And uh what did that report cover?

So that report covered uh an analysis of the learning experience. It covered traffic counts and analysis that um incorporated counts from July of 2025. Um as well as full level of service analysis, evaluation of the site and yeah. All right. Was school in session at that time? Of course. No. Okay. And how was the weather uh was on that particular day? The weather was nice. Okay. Good. Uh was an additional report submitted? Yes. All right. And do you recall what that is? Uh that was the the January uh 30th traffic volume comparison memorandum.

Okay. Uh and for the record, it's called the technical memorandum and it was actually dated January 29th. That's okay. 2026. We're going to call that report number two. Uh and do you recall what that report covered? Right. So that report provided a uh count comparison to um traffic volumes with school in session uh versus the uh you know the July counts when school is not in session. And you recall specifically what day that count occurred?

Yeah, so that day was on Wednesday, January 28th. So it was very tight turnaround from our you know January 29th report um in order to make that upcoming hearing date. Uh, coincidentally, um, as the as the board noted, that day was the, uh, first day back from school following one of our large snow events this past winter. So, um, you know, while school was in session, uh, I think, you know, from from what I've heard from the testimony and the, you know, the hearing notes that there was some concern about the validity of really a full traffic impact on that date. Okay. Um, was there a third report submitted? There was

Okay. And uh can you give us the date of that report? Yeah, that's the February 25th, 2026 uh traffic impact study. We're going to call that report number three. And and for the record, that report was submitted in connection with our resmiddle that occurred on February 27th, 2026. So, uh report number three, um what what counts or counts uh were involved in that report?

Yeah. So within that report um we performed another set of traffic counts. Um uh this were on Thursday, February 19th, 2026. Uh weather conditions much more favorable. Snow has been cleared. Um didn't, you know, didn't have those same types of impacts whether it's from, you know, the big snow event or school not being in session. Uh we counted we conducted those counts at the existing site driveways Main Street and then also and from the board request we did a traffic count uh a little bit further north about 750 ft north at the intersection of Town Center Drive and Main Street. Okay. How was the date of count three determined the the February uh 19th date?

Yeah. So the the date was determined because it is a typical weekday period and upon selecting that then we worked with Mr. in Tandola to you know confirm that that date was acceptable as far as a uh you know account date when you know with general activity throughout the area. So it was in conjunction you know with your board professional.

Okay. So you you mentioned that report number three uh not only covered the site intersection but covered a an off-site location. Can you uh tell us about that off-site location? Yes, that off-site location uh intersection of Town Center Drive and Main Street. Uh it's an unsalized intersection. Um and it is fairly busy. So, Main Street has the the throughway of travel. Town Center Drive has, you know, a stop sign at its approach. Um, and uh there's also a site driveway opposite creating a four-leg intersection which which has minimal traffic volume, but really the the Town Center Drive is the the main leg of additional volume off of Main Street.

All right. Was the town engineer aware that you're going to be conducting a uh count at that intersection? Yes. All right. Can we use uh the new exhibit if

Yeah, of course. Thank you. Keep going. Anyone that's We're going to mark this as exhibit A7.

Uh, we already have A7. It's A8. Apologies. Thank you. A8. Apologies. All right. Um, can you tell the board what this exhibit is? Yes. So, this exhibit is a set of tables and graphs. um that provides a count comparison of the three sets of count dates that that we collect the data on. Right. And you you have the actual counts among the three dates. Is that correct? Count one, count two, count three. Correct. Uh how would you describe the consistency among the three counts?

Yeah. So, so as we work through the exhibit, say the left half of the page is all the morning peak hour, the right half of the page is all the evening peak hour. And so, as we look from starting on the morning side, uh July 2025, January 2026, uh February 2026, uh what we see uh in the northbound direction, um variation from uh the July counts to February counts actually goes goes down in comparison. Um February is lower than July. Um but you know January to February that volume's up. Southbound the February count data is higher in both cases. Um and overall you do have an increased volume which I think you know lends lends itself to kind of what we would expect given the conditions in the July um counts. School not being in session as well as you know in January with just after the snowstorm you may have people not driving as much. Um but overall you know an 11% um you know total change from January to February or a 6% total change from July to February. Um these are not you know catastrophically significant by any means. They're they're well within the realm of of regular um you know traffic flow and really day-to-day adjustments that that we experience out there whether we know it or not.

Good. Same thing same thing working on the uh the evening side. Um cutting to the chase. These ones are actually very very close together. So overall the evening volume's higher than the morning. Um but we're in about a 2 to 4% difference across all three counts collected. So it it's the data is fairly consistent with each other. I wouldn't consider the older July or January data particularly um you know like bad data necessarily. Uh but the February data I think is a is a normalized data and just wanted to represent that as we work on the bar graphs for visual appearance. Um orange is the northbound, blue is the southbound, green is the total and you can see that you know across each of the the three sets of days that we did counts. It's you know really consistent across each one.

Okay, great. All right. Um, I'd like you to direct your attention to the site intersection count in the report number three. So, using the most recent data from report number three, again, this is count three, can you uh advise the board what you found?

Yes. So, at the at the site driveway intersection at Main Street, we conducted another level of service analysis like we had done in our prior reports. Um what we found is you know consistent levels of service with the prior reports in that um your your north south main street operation you know being that it's the through movement continues to operate at level of service A at the intersection whereas the turning movements coming out of the site driveway operate at levels of service C or D um which as you know my colleague Mr. Secular testified to, you know, those are acceptable operating levels of service and it it would, you know, looking at the February data, you know, typical traffic count day, um, still operating at those, you know, acceptable levels of service at the driveway.

Okay. At this time, if you don't mind, can you speak to the counts at the, uh, Town Center Drive intersection?

Yeah, of course. So, the Town Center Drive intersection, as we all know, busier intersection, and all the movements at the intersection work fairly well with the exception of the left turn from Town Center Drive onto Main Street. I don't think we need a traffic engineer to to tell you that, but we did the counts and the analysis and it bears that out also. So, there's a few reasons for that. Uh, one simply just the volume of traffic, right? It's a lot of left turns being made there. So, you're likely approaching that intersection waiting behind someone. But two, there's it's a difficult intersection to maneuver right from a visibility concern as you're trying to make that left turn. As you look left, there's the big stop and shop sign, monument sign right in the way. It's if you're if you don't pull up into the crosswalk, you can't see oncoming traffic. As you look right, you do have a vertical crest, a hill that while you do have what is measurably an appropriate sight distance, you don't have much more beyond that. So, you can't once you're making the left turn, you can't look right, confirm there's no one there for a good chunk of time, and then look left. You're really going back and forth. And then the third piece is with the left turn and the right turn, there's two lanes, so you get that jockeying for position. people in the right turn lane turning out and blocking your view and that compounds the issue.

So the left turn uh eastbound out is a existing condition. Uh you did a uh actual count analysis and and based upon a build analysis what did you find? Yeah. So the build analysis the key here is that the location of the center does not add any new traffic to that movement. All right. there's a marginal increase in traffic that's making, you know, the through volume either north or south and perhaps some of the right turn volume, but really as it relates to the increase at that left turn, um this is not a development that is significantly exacerbating that movement.

So, will there ever be is it realistic there'll be any cars that are leaving our site that's going to be making that left turn eastbound movement? No, it's you would have to basically circle all the way around and then make the left turn back onto Maine, whereas you would just make the right out of the driveway to to go that way. All right. Was there a gap study done in report number three? There was. And can you uh explain to the board what a gap study is?

Yeah, so a gap study, this is a more detailed study that we don't perform on on every application. Um, but it is basically an evaluation of the gaps in traffic that exist at the site driveway. We essentially video record it and we time basically for each gap, each passing car, how much time is there in traffic for you to make that turning movement in or out of the site. So, it's a very detailed process. It's a time- inensive process. Um but what you result what the what the final result is you have a better understanding of really those gaps that do exist how how long they are and you know can your driveway support uh you know the future traffic volume anticipated at it.

All right. Can you give just maybe one or two examples uh what you found in the gap like for like for instance uh left left in um in the AM time frame?

Yeah. So, for example, like a left in at the AM time frame, what you're battling as a as a motorist um is really just the oncoming lane of traffic, right? And so, within that one hour period during the peak hour, um the traffic forecast is 31 vehicles that would be making a left turn in. the gaps in traffic that are available on Main Street to support those turning movements are over 700 um a capacity of over 700 vehicles could make that left in. So that aligns back to the level of service where you know we're seeing the the level of service a for that movement. Uh and this is accounting for you know the occasional backup that we do see on Main Street, right? We've all been stuck behind that left turning vehicle or the school bus. Um but even accounting for you know those minor periods of uh of sight driveway blockage there's still really excessive amount of capacity to accommodate the left turns

and that example is that consistent through all the other movements and peaks times.

Yeah. So that that's probably the you know the the um I'll call it the least conservative example. I think the the most conservative one for the board's edification is making the left out in the evening, right? That you need to cross two lanes of of travel um at the busiest period with the most traffic on the road. Um and so there where we'd have we're anticipating again about 31 left turns out over the course of an hour. So about one every two minutes. Um there's capacity for that movement of over 200 left turns. So a a bit a wide gap. We're not looking at say 31 left turns and a capacity for 40. We have capacity for over 200 left turns at that driveway.

It's like a sevenfold. Correct. Okay. All right. Um you have another exhibit I believe for queuing. Um yeah, call A9 here. Oh, it's on the back. Okay,

that explains it. All right, John, can you identify what this A9 is?

Yes, so this A9 is the uh revised site plan that was uh just testified to by by Owen Dystra. Um but we've overlaid essentially a uh a queue of cars at the driveway. All right. And can you I know it's a little hard maybe to see because but can you point out where the uh where the the actual queuing is that you're showing that is what cars are be or Q cars.

Yeah. So so to cut to the chase right in conjunction with the gap analysis conducted right as as part of our level of service analysis we also calculate uh the what we call the 95th percentile Q. This is what traffic engineers use really to evaluate your your peak queuing conditions. So that 95th percentile Q in the morning is 8/10 of a vehicle which we generally speaking round up to one. In the evening it's 1.2 vehicles which also again rounds to one or you could say that the 95th percentile is is one vehicle four days of the week and two vehicles on the fifth day. What we have at this location what is shown faintly on the map. So we have the one vehicle in red, right? That's represented at the 95th percentile. And then theoretically a capacity to stack an additional seven vehicles on the site before interacting with any parking areas, any pedestrians through the parking lot. Um really any conflict points uh that could be perceived. So the the point of this exhibit, it's it's it's almost comically over um you know, the the length is almost comically oversized, but that's just the nature of the site and the building. Um but there's certainly adequate queuing capacity, throat length here to to support the operation.

All right. So just in to sum this up, uh you have queuing capacity for eight cars before there's a conflict with the parking lot and you expect that at the 95th percentile to have 1.2 cars. Correct. All right. Thank you. Right. Um using um this plan, this also represents what we're calling the alternate parking plan. Mhm. Correct.

And I think uh you're aware I know you're aware of the prior plan that showed 49 parking spaces whereas this uh alternate plan uh shows 42 spaces. Can you speak to um whether this alternate plan would satisfy the parking requirements of the learning experience?

Yeah, so I think I think Mr. Dyster testified to it well, but I'll reiterate the testimony. Right. So, we're down to 42 spaces on the site. Um the learning experience, the TLE standard that they look for on their sites is 40 spaces. And this is really to provide an abundance of parking so you're not hunting for the last space. We've done traffic counts at other learning experience locations in New Jersey. Found very consistently that the demand at those sites, the the peak amount of cars ever on the site is 25 to 26 vehicles. Um, and to clarify, you're talking about open and operating locations. Is that right?

Open, operating, full capacity. Study the entire drop off pe the entire drop off period. Studied the entire pickup period. both of which are are higher demand parking wise than at the middle of the day. Um yeah, the the peak has has readily been 25 or 26 vehicles. And what is the IT requirement for this? So the IT uh has a wide range of data of various different daycare users. Um their 85th percentile which is another benchmark that traffic engineers use would call for 37 spaces for a site like this.

So it would satisfy it. would satisfy uh TLE's estimated requirements and it would satisfy uh actual operating locations in the learning experience portfolio. Yeah, absolutely. It it it meets really all the check marks that as a traffic engineer we look for. Um you know, in terms of parking demand, it just doesn't meet the ordinance requirement and you know, quite frankly, that happens sometimes where the ordinance requirement doesn't always match perfectly with our real world experience. Would you describe 49 spaces being a bit overparked? I would describe it as as overparked. Yes. Okay. And would you describe the 42 spaces as being a bit more appropriate?

I think that the trade-off between providing additional buffer versus those seven spaces um is is a definite benefit. We, you know, despite being a traffic engineer, you think we love cars, but I much prefer green space to parking space. Right. And previously um you your firm has testified that the circulation on site is uh safe uh ingress and egress to site is safe. Does the change in parking uh number parking count change that analysis at all? In no way. Okay. All right. Uh are you aware whether the police uh sparted police department uh issued any reports in connection with our application? Yes. Yes, they did. And what were the nature of those reports?

So, there's a few different reports issued. Um, most recently, and I want to pull it up because it's short enough to to really read into the record, please. Y have copies. I just need to remember where I put it. Okay. So, this is the memo from the Sparta Township Police Department um dated March 9th, 2026 from uh Sergeant Richard Smith, the traffic bureau board has a copy. Yeah, I presume. Yes.

Um but maybe mostly for the public's edification. Um, you know, the the memo reads, "I have reviewed the updated traffic information submitted in connection with application ZBA number 16-25 for proposed use by the learning experience at 29 Main Street. After reviewing the additional information provided and considering the existing roadway conditions, the Sparta Police Department has no objections to the proposed application from a traffic safety or circulation standpoint. Should the board require any additional information or clarification, please feel free to contact me. All right. Thank you. No further questions. All right. Thank you, John. Thank you. Anyone else? Mr. Feldman from the professionals.

Yes. One more. U bring back the planner for a short few a few minutes. Oh, okay.

Thank you. Alison, do you acknowledge your remain on oath? Yes. Thank you.

All right. Allison, would you mind remind me remind the board uh the standard for granting a use variance?

Yes. Um so I will walk through the seek a balancing test for the board's uh consideration. Um so the first uh consideration that um we need to undertake is identifying the public interest at stake uh which in this case is child care in Sussex County. Uh the legislature has expressly named child care as an inherently beneficial use which is universally considered of value to the community because it fundamentally services uh the public good and it promotes the general welfare. along with child care. The other uses expressly mentioned that in the MLUL are schools, hospitals, group homes, and wind and solar facilities. Uh so the MLUL has also given child care centers uh special zoning considerations uh including permitting them in every non-residential zone um as well as exempting them from uh parking requirements related to floor area and uh the permitted density. Uh so we've heard testimony from uh the re a regional man manager for uh the learning experience as to how exactly they've uh determined where to place a new location. Um and through their research they've identified a specific need here. Um the need for child care is generally a wellstudied topic. Um and so we can in reviewing the state of child care uh from a broader perspective the center for American progress conduct conducted a study in 2018 and one of the key findings is that rural areas have the highest concentration of child care deserts where people don't have access um or there isn't enough access to child care. uh in reviewing the state of child care in New Jersey. More specifically, we can look at the New Jersey strategic plan uh for state supported preschool expansion. Uh that's that was prepared by the

Department of Education in December 2024. Uh the report identifies gaps in preschool uh preschool coverage and finding specifically for S Sussex County uh that in order to reach universal access and that's um universal access is defined as 90% of the full population of three and four year olds um in order to reach that universal access at least 87 additional classrooms would be needed in the county. And currently school districts are um uh projecting to serve just 46% of that population. So even more specifically, why this site? Why here in Sparta on Main Street? Um Sparta is the second largest municipality in Sussex County and it serves as a key access point to Route 15. Um the and uh in this zone, it only consists of just 11 parcels. None of those parcels are being used as residential properties. Uh functionally this is a commercial zone and uh the use has been designed in a manner that fits in uh with the existing character of Main Street. So the second prong uh of the SECA balancing test is to identify any detriment detrimental effects that could be caused by the granting of this variance. uh certain effects such as an increase in traffic or a tendency to impair uh the character, utility or value um that are usually associated with non-permitted uses. Uh when minimal, these effects uh fall short of outweighing the inherent benefit of this use. And so we've heard testimony this evening um as well as at the prior hearing uh from our project traffic engineer that the increase in traffic is relatively minor. um it's acceptable

um in general it will not be uh readily perceptible by the public. Uh there are sufficient gaps in Main Street to accommodate the proposed use um during the peak hours. Uh it should also be noted that the TCMSB zone permits other uses such as offices, cafes, restaurants, and mixed use family uh units, multif mixeduse multif family units. Um each of these uses has their own traffic associated with it to varying degrees. Uh the third prong in the see a balancing test is determining whether or not the board can impose any reasonable conditions uh to mitigate any of these negative impacts. And so uh the board and the public have raised some valid concerns at the prior hearing with respect to traffic as well as the appearance of the building. Um, and in response, the applicant has provided new plans through this alternative parking layout and these architectural changes, those dormers on the north and south elevations. Um, additionally, the applicant also remains open to other reasonable conditions as the board should see fit if they look favorably upon the application. And then finally, uh, the last prong of the SECA balancing test is for the board to balance the positive and negative criteria. and determine whether on balance um the devariance can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good or uh substantial impairment to the intent and purpose of the zone plan and zoning ordinance. So again, the general welfare welfare purpose of zoning is sufficiently advanced uh by providing for uh increased child care services for the residents of Sparta and Sussex County and this results in uh minor deviations from the zoning ordinance. uh the site is able to accommodate uh

the use and impacts associated with the use and importantly the project does not result in any substantial detriment to the master plan which encourages redevelopment of underutilized lots uh seek it the master plan also seeks to support community health and wellness and to create a hub of increased activity. Would you describe uh the instant parcel as undevelop underutized lot? Yes, it's currently a single family home on the site um with a a large parking lot. And is the parking lot of any value today?

No, it's my understanding the church no longer requires that parking that excess parking area and otherwise um there's no other use that requires that space. So today you have a single family uh use and is that a conforming use? No, I don't believe it's permitted in the TCMSB zone. You have a non-conforming use uh single family house with a parking lot. Correct.

Okay. And would you describe the childcare use as a better use that's consistent with the TCM zone? Yes, I do think that um you know given the location to not just Main Street but also Route 15, it really is a um unique parcel that's uh that can accommodate this use and the intensity of the use. Okay. Anything else? Um I think just running through the bulk variation. Oh, of course. Yes.

Thank you. And just to clarify, um, at the prior hearing, I testified to the bulk variance criteria, which remains, uh, applicable, even with the modifications to the project as proposed this evening. Uh, these were to permit the monument sign closer than 20 ft to the property line, a waiver for not providing any loading spaces, and the size of the front facade signage, which now includes those blocks. And also in regard to and the parking as well. All right. If you if you don't mind, just for the record, uh state what is the variance in regard to parking. Uh I believe uh I don't remember what's required, but 42 spaces are proposed.

And for the record, I believe 49 spaces are required when you factor in the EV credits. Uh so uh it would be not 49, it would be 42. Um, for the record, I believe both the planners uh and the engineers u review reports I think they say 44 spaces are being provided and but to be clear it's it's 42 that's being proposed. Okay. All right. Anything else? I have nothing. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you Allison. Thank you, Mr. Felman. Thank all your professionals for their presentations. I'll now have our board engineer, David Simmons, present his report, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, just referring to the report, the latest report we prepared dated March 6th, 2026. The applicant and their professionals have touched on me most of the issues, but I'll just highlight a few if I may just for the record. Again, going through, they did provide their updated hours just so everyone is on the same page as I understand it. Monday through Friday, 6:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m., no weekends. Uh, with regards to uh, the site plan, we touched on it the last time, I believe there was the question brought up if there was going to be any emergency generator and the answer at that time, and I assume still that there were not. Correct.

So, that addressed that as far as being shown on the site plan. Uh we discussed the uh parking lot tonight as far as the reduced number of parking spaces that they're proposing and the applicant's attorney confirmed that they researched the records on the parking lot on the existing subject property with regards to any requirements for the church to maintain those parking spaces and he found none. So that was confirmed as something that we requested be done. Uh with regards to the seven parking spaces that are suggested to the board be removed, the one question I just want to clarify so it's correct on the record. Uh my understanding is that those seven spaces would be removed permanently and not banked for future use.

That is correct.

Okay. So, I wanted the board to know that and everyone else to know that if the parking wasn't adequate, they're not going to go in there and take away that additional buffering and add those additional seven parking spaces. That option would be foreclosed. With regards to the storm drainage, uh the applicant has basically met the requirements. They do have a storm water maintenance manual that ultimately will have to be filed in the county clerk's office. So, future owners of the property are aware of that deed restriction. Uh, with regards to lighting, uh, again, they've got the gooseenecks fixtures, goose neck fixtures on the building and, uh, those fixtures I believe are supposed to be operated within the same operating hours as necessary.

That is correct. With regards to the architectural plans, again, they provided the exhibit that showed how the Manser type roof is going to screen the HVAC equipment that'll be roof mounted. They added additional dormers uh to enhance the look of the building. With regards to the elevation views, I just point out that Mr. Laro pointed out in the last hearing that those elevation views do not reflect the fencing around the perimeter of the building. Just so everyone is clear what's shown and what's not shown on there. My understanding is the fencing is god forbid in the event of an emergency the children have to be evacuated. It keeps them within the confines of that fenced area to get to safety. They did provide additional landscaped uh buffering which was a good thing. The only thing I would point out about that is the exhibit that they pointed out basically shows evergreen trees and additional plantings. But if the board approves, the detailed landscaping plan uh will have to be revised to update the quantity and size of the various trees and what have you that will be provided. So there's a record of that.

Of course,

with regards to utilities, uh they basically subject to meeting the requirements of the sewer and water department in town and what have you. U they can meet those requirements. One thing I just thought about while we were sitting here listening to the testimony, if the board approves the application, one thing they should realize and the applicant should realize, uh, there were some improvements made on Main Street this past year. And one of the last things to do is any kind of remaining milling and resurfacing of Main Street. The reason I bring that up, uh, we've got a situation where once that's resurfaced, there'll probably be a moratorum on opening that up. And the reason I bring that up, u my suggestion is again if the board finds favorable with the application that the construction of the tiein for water and sewer be done as soon as possible, if you will, after meeting all the requirements of the utilities and payment of fees to get it past the curb line.

No objection. Okay. just so we don't he doesn't get foreclosed from tying in. Uh with regards to the signage, the monument sign other than the setback uh was within the limits. Uh there was a comment on the plans that if required by the authority having jurisdiction that they also add the street number on the monument sign. I would recommend to the board that that be added.

No objection. Uh with regards again the planner pointed out that they do need a variance for the size of the facade sign on the front of the building towards Main Street. 121 square ft pro proposed 55.7 square ft allowed and they have changed the uh signing to gooseeneck sign type signing. Uh they did have a temporary sign coming soon on the site plan. Is that still part of it just temporarily or it's as we get closer to opening we put up the tempor the it's it's a coming soon sign we can apply for a sign permit at that time. We we tend to put on a site plan just just to be transparent.

I just wanted to make the board aware of that just so they know it. With regards to details, the one item I just point out is 12C. With regards to any kind of streetscape repair details, they will have to do to modify their entrance that they consult with the township engineer to make sure they're using the same same style materials and what have you to match in with the streetscape improvements that I just mentioned were done this past year. We talked about the applicants regional manager talked about the EIS and the operational description. Uh I'll leave it to Brian to comment any more on the traffic impact study, but that was provided. And then we have the usual comments about approvals that are required by the various agencies at least plus an asbuilt at the conclusion of the project. And that's my update report. Mr. Chairman,

thank you. David Brian, could you please give your planners report?

Yes, sir. uh with respect to our March 5th letter uh we noted that the uh it's a D1 variance uh with that they have to provide the proofs that the one in this particular instance the use is inherently beneficial which is um which based on our reading of the MLUL it does qualify as one of the uses that is inherently beneficial. Therefore, the uh balancing test for uh the SECA court case that they uh referenced um the emphasis is on uh basically on-site safety and circulation almost as if it was a permitted planning board use as an analog, but it's not quite. Uh and in looking at that, we looked at site circulation. Um it's self-contained. Uh we do not disagree that they were slightly overparked in this instance and that the 42 spaces proposed uh would serve the use. Uh we are familiar with the IT calculations in this particular uh brand of um daycare center as well and uh uh so the parking ratio is right and what we also know for these sites is that because uh the way the site is designed you have a long throat into the driveway. So a lot of the drop off uh activity has a space spatial separation from main avenue which you as you can come in you can see uh if there is a a child and a caregiver coming across the parking lot. So that is one of the uh features of the site that is unique to it. Um and the on the queue out it's satisfactory. It's more than the the 95th percentile, meaning that it will never hurt cap more than uh there's a 5% chance it's ever going beyond what they testified to. And it's not more than two vehicles when you round it. They had a throat, I believe, of uh six plus is what we look for and they're a little

bit over that before they start to impede into general circulation. So um with respect to the traffic aspects in the balancing test uh we are satisfied with the uh the the traffic report and the gap study. Um although it's not perceived that it's easy to make a left turn into the site from main uh avenue or main street. It's it there are gaps provided by the different u traffic signals that are uh next down from this. And it also uh they're pretty forthright in reporting that Town Center Drive right out here is getting to the point where uh at some point a traffic signal should be re uh looked at, but the onus is not on the applicant for that. But it's something to uh be mindful of because that left turn is difficult under any situation. It's a because the as they test they testify to the line of sight is just there uh when you look to your right uh because of the uh the uh there's basically a a grade it's it's humped over and then a platoon is sent of traffic and they're all in a row. So other than that uh we're satisfied with the traffic operation. We believe that the the need for the uh ordinance required loading zone uh given the intermittent nature of the uh paper and dry goods delivery in the it looked to be like an SU 40 vehicle uh is readily offloaded in non- peak hours. We do not believe that will cause any detriment uh to site circulation. And with the uh panel van delivering the uh food on a daily basis, I we don't see the need for a loading zone uh for this particular use. Uh uh there is a parking variance requested. Uh we believe that is a common sense variance. The ordinance is

uh little aggressive. Uh and if you were able to give back green space uh to re to increase the buffer to the rear residential uses, we believe that is a good thing. and uh and if uh and there the team that's presenting this uh I believe I don't know based on my experience seen them at different hearings in in different towns. Uh I've yet to see one where it didn't work with this particular team. So uh I'm pretty confident that we have um the reporting of this is right. Overall uh this would not cause a detriment to the master plan. Uh and just to echo the planner uh to make hubs of activity, this is exactly that uh where daycare is provided for and there is a der of uh quality daycare uh in Sussex and in the area and that's been proven out by state reports. So overall the balance tests is met. So we don't see an issue with uh this particular application at this particular site uh considering the D1 which is the uh most um it's a serious uh variance to grant the use variance but we believe in this context it could be granted uh uh and serve the public good ultimately and that that's the substance of our report. All right. Thank you, uh, Brian. Marissa, could you please call on the board members for their questions andor comments?

Michael Johnson. Yeah, just a few, uh, questions. Um, I know there's testimony that they said there's going to be no, uh, school buses for afterare. Um, is there any before care being offered? Before before school? Yes, I know some places offer that where the school buses would come to the school to pick up the children. No. The answer is no.

All right. Um, let me see what else I have here. Um, yes. And then I know there was the images of the vehicles uh that were given out. And then uh for the I guess the lunch van, it said it was coming Monday through Thursday. What happens on Friday? So Friday is a fun day. Uh that's when a local police u pizza delivery is uh is used. So um Domino's you know car um so we be local pizza person.

Okay. All right. It's very good. Um trash pickup. I know the trash area is located close to the uh I guess the town homes um in the back. How often is trash going to be picked up and what are the hours of pickup? And Melissa, would you mind just want to come forward and speak into the mic? There's a mic over here. Just identify yourself. Melissa Rodriguez, regional manager for the learning experience. Generally two times a week depending on what the need is for the center. So we can always add more as time goes on.

And would that be during the day? Not like weekend pickups or generally they're during the day. They're usually earlier in the like a pickup early in the week and a pickup like Thursdayish. Okay. All right. And then um for the school's curriculum um is that like 365? I'm just trying to see if enrollment is kind of seasonal like in the summer does it drop off? We do our curriculum all year round. We also have a summer curriculum that we implement. We also have an enrichment program Spanish and sign language. Okay. So enrollment is kind of consistent.

Consistent. Okay. All right. Um All right. Thank you. And then um just one I guess question or maybe clarification for the record. I know on this um document here on the left side it's supposed to be for uh the morning hours, but above the uh bar graph it says weekly evening peak hours. Is that just a error? I just want the record to reflect correctly. It looks like a typographical error. Okay. Yeah. Left side should be morning, right side should be evening. Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you. That's all I have. Richard Laroffa.

Uh yeah, thank you. And uh I I appreciate the changes you've made, especially removing the sign from the back and the extra buffer for the the condos behind it. That's very good. Uh I still have I still have an uncomfortable feeling with the uh egress and I'm not I'm not saying it's not the code but the the concern I have and it's it's I'd like a little additional testimony on on this. Um you have the doors in each out of each classroom going to the I'll call it an alleyway and the reason I call it an alleyway is it's only six feet wide. It's right against the building. Last year, the board considered a uh an addition to a uh a school up on White Lake Road and they set the sidewalk off the building 10 15 ft so you can get away from the building and then walk away to an area of safety. Here it's right against the building and you have a 4ft high fence that's enclosing this what I call an alleyway right now.

And you're speaking about emergency eress.

Emergency egress. Yes. Now, um, a 4ft high fence doesn't seem high to us, but you're talking about a population that maybe 3 ft high, 3t tall. So, it is it is like an alleyway. And you're showing on your drawings that you have lights, loose neck lights over each door. And part of my concern is that's sufficient lighting for an a a pathway of egress. And on the on the front of the building, the only gooseeneck light is over the the uh by this under the the door by the sign. There's no other lighting along that the street side of the building. Uh what I'd like is if someone could walk us through what happens when an alarm goes off because again this is this is not school age kids. It's not kids that you can have fire fire drills regularly that they know what the fire drill represents. But when an alarm goes off and you have the egress out these doors, what is what is the what what happens next?

We're going to have both Cheryl the architect who designs a virt from learning experience. So we're going to have both answer this question.

I think it's important because of the age of the kids that we're dealing with here. Okay, this is the floor plan that was part of the original submission. So, I'll talk about a little bit code and a little bit of operations and Melissa will jump in as needed. So if there is an emergency fire, fire alarm goes off and they need to evacuate, each room has two means of egress. So they are provided obviously the quickest way out, furthest away from the emergency if there is a fire. So while they can use the doors directly to the outside, there's also an interior corridor where they can use corridor doors. So, we're not seeing um an assembly of all the classrooms using every single sidewalk. There's plenty of options for them to use. Uh as far as the lighting, we have a phototric uh study that was part of the I think the original submission. And if we feel that there's some light levels that are low, we can add additional fixtures, but not too much to provide uh any issue of overlighting the site, but we will meet code. So, we are required to provide a certain foot candle of of egress lighting.

Yeah. My main concern is in these alleyways around. Sure. Sure. Yes. And and as I said, we're required to have I think uh it's a half a foot candle of lighting uh on the egress paths. So, we will make sure that we comply with that as well.

Okay. And as far as ops, we require one fire drill on a monthly where we're pulling the alarms. We're notifying the fire department. They'll come out, they'll check annually. Um, most towns do in October. Well, during fire prevention. Um, all our teachers are also trained what we call as name to face. So, they're every time they leave a threshold, they're doing a name-toface headcount of the children. So, they can see all the children at all times. Um, and like she had stated, we have primary and secondary exit. So, they're not always going to use the alleyway. They're going to use whatever the safest option is.

Okay. That's that's a decision that has to be made immediately or very quickly. And all our teachers are trained to unlock. So, if but if everybody has to go out the outside doors to the alleyway, where do they go?

So, as you're right, there are uh fences around the building. So, we have gates into the playground which that could be used and we have some additional gates at the front here so that they could egress out um if needed from there. So, they have multiple ways within the alleyway, the gated area or the fenced areas around the building. So, there are options to exit those areas at different points as well. And we're meeting all the travel distances per the building code and and all of that. Are you concerned about the number of gates along that fence perhaps?

Well, not it's not only the number of gates and again we're dealing with infants to preschoolers. Okay. Which some of them have a mind of their own how they walk and they don't have a a pace like a a school grade kids where you can walk a stride of two or three feet a step. It's more like inches a step. But if you had if if they emptied out into the uh alleyways and I'll call them alleyways now. Now, you just said they can go north to the you can go east to the playground area, correct? Or you can go forward and go out the front entrance,

but there's a gate also to to the parking lot area. So, as part of the fire drills, they are learning where they need to go in an emergency. So, they are trained every month. They do this repeatedly. So, in the case, the adult the adults are not the the children that age. do a do a variation as to the multiple ways that they have to go. So they are familiar with each access. So it's designed to meet building code. It's designed to meet operations. It's designed to meet the state licensing requirements to get the kids out of the building safely. We meet all that criteria. Okay. get them out of the building safely, but you have to get them to an area that's

well. So, in the in the in the um building code, it talks about uh access to a public way, and it's part of the egress system. So, in the building code, you have three points of egress. You have an exit, you have an exit discharge, and you have your access to a public way. We are meeting all of those criteria in the building code as we design it for travel distance, the number of exits, how big the exits are, it's all meeting building code. Okay? And and I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm just I'm just concerned because because of the population that you're dealing with, which is toddlers and that that type of thing.

Absolutely. In designing over 400 centers, safety is the number one. As an architect, we are by the code to provide a safe environment for the occupants. So we would not design something that wouldn't be safe and TLE wouldn't even allow a design that wasn't safe for the occupants. Part of my concern and again this is just just a concern and I just want to go through it with you is the the group whatever it is whether it that heads towards the street. Okay. Now that could be half the population of the building. Half can go to the to the east and the other half can go to the west or whatever you have an alarm go off. You have to go get out the fastest way you can to something safe. that says you can have half your student population going out to the street which which is very close by the driveway where the same place where the fire department and the police department is coming in and so you you could have 80s something kids right there on the street level that they have to continue to a public access way.

Yes. And but we we pick a place within the property that's safe. So we have multiple different places depending on if you don't have a place if they go out that way there's not a place in the property in the same location. So we'll have the same meeting location. So they would go down the the driveway right. So you want hold no no. Okay. If you go out the doors we talked about the last time. Look at the north side of the building. You have five classrooms there or something that exit. You said half part of them can go east towards the playground area. The other part could go west towards the street area, but they all correct me if I'm wrong on the architect plan. They all should be able to get to the same meeting point. Correct.

Well, the only way the only way they can get to the same they would traverse through the down either the driveway, their sidewalks with the gates that they would go down and they would have areas that they would meet in the parking lot like rowing points. So the group so any you're saying any group that goes out towards wherever they exit the building they're all going they'll have to go all the way around and correct because they're already outside to that access to a public way you're meeting the the the

I know you're meeting the code I'm just saying from a from a from a practical common sense you're dealing with toddlers okay you're not dealing with school students it's a constraint on the site that that just bothers me okay that if you go west towards the street level. So the street side, you have to come all the way back around to the to by the main entrance if you're going to go to an area refuge that's in the parking lot. Can you point out the the exits on one more time? The gates. There are two gates here.

Right. But you're saying everybody meets up at the same place which is by the main entrance to go to the area refuge which was in the parking lot. So they have to come all the way around the building through this alleyway. 180 158 kids and and adults plus adults that have to do that. And I'm just concerned about the this alleyway as the as the means of of passage. It's right against the building. So your concern is say uh fire rescue vehicles showing up. You're right there on the street. You're very close to the street and you're right there at the driveway where the rescue vehicles and the police and the fire are going to going to enter. So but they're behind they're behind the wall initially, right? If they come through the gates,

okay? Then they then you have this number of kids that are there right at the street level. Right at the street. Okay. and somebody's got to take care. There has to be a process of getting them to a safe area. You can't take them all to the back parking lot. Well, every location is a little different. Some location meeting places um but we and I don't know much about how Sparta fire and police work. We need to be out based on licensing under three minutes. So, we generally are going to be out before police and fire come and we are going to do anything and everything in our power to make sure all those children are safe.

And you if if you take them up to the um to the east, you you really you have the playground area and you have the the parking lot area. And the parking lot area is really the area of refuge. I'm sorry. I have that's that's so there's landscape areas and areas where the children can congregate away from any kind of vehicle the parking lot area parking lot and then you have this the grassy area back correct well not in the basin but you have some buffer areas like we took out some parking spaces we have some more buffer in the back okay

so there are areas where the children well and that's part of the DCF inspection they also have to show how the kids get out of the building safely and where they congregate so that's also part of the Excuse me everyone. Uh David, could you comment on Rich's concerns from your engineering perspective, what he's bringing up, please?

I I understand uh what Mr. Luffa is talking about and I understand what the architect and the regional manager are explaining. Uh the the concern is uh when they get to the back by the parking lot, I I think from a practical standpoint, given the fenced in uh recreation area and the infiltration basin in the back, you're basically talking about being in the parking lot is what I think is going to happen with the kids. God forbid they have to go back there. They might have some in between some of the trees, but 158 people is 158 people. If they come out the front towards Main Street, uh I'm just looking at the exhibit A9 and there's an extensive landscaped area up front. I don't believe there's room for 158 people up front. They'd have to go to the back as well. So, I I agree everybody's basically got to go to the back. The only the only additional thing I could suggest uh is I was looking at the uh zoning table and the minimum uh sideyard setback is 15 ft and they have 19 ft. If they were to slide I'm just thinking out loud. If they were to slide the proposed building to the north by an additional four feet four feet. Yeah. Four feet. They have an additional four feet in that alleyway next to the driveway to help get the kids to the back

is this this area here. Yeah. Yes. The side so the kids could walk back down this way. Technically, they could walk down this way as well. No, I'm I'm thinking to add the additional for to that side in this side. It makes it makes the the throat longer. Move He wants to move the building back this way. You want this? That's what I'm suggesting. You shift the building to the left. Gotcha. this.

Okay. Yeah. And we and when we addressed this with the other school a year ago, we helped to come up with a solution that better. The the other concern is the weather we had in February here is typical of Sparta for the winter. Okay. The ice and the snow. So, in my mind, the playgrounds and the grassy areas can't be used as an area of refuge because you can have two feet of snow and ice on it. But it also brings out the point that this alleyway, these walkways that are that are fenced in, they're going to be a nuisance to maintain to be clean and dry. Okay? Because you could have dripping off the mansaw roof. You could have icing uh neither neither one of those areas that is only six feet wide with the walls is going to get any sun on it during the winter. So, it's going to be it's going to be that's going to be a maintenance issue. But hang on. Um, one other thought for consideration is did you could you modify the roof design so the roof covers the walkways?

So the roof um the eaves are 2 feet out so it does partially cover it but what that does is it lets the ice drip onto the water there but you'll still it's a maintenance issue. Yeah. So, and each facility is required to remove snow immediately again because they need to maintain the emergency egress and exit access. So, they are on top of snow removal around the perimeter of the building.

And and I I don't disagree with you. It's it's very important. And the weather we had this last month is very typical of the winters we've had in Sparta since I moved up here in 1970. And there's a question is to minimize that the potential of a maintenance issue is could you cover those walkways with the roof so the roof extends over the width of the walkway. Uh they're not going to get any sun on them no matter what. And it's it's just something to consider. Yeah,

we we can look at it and see see if it makes sense, but with snow it's it's hard to always protect it because windb blown snow, snow drifting. But you do have the 4ft fence there to help with some of that snow drifting. So, um I don't think extending the roof peak is going to help. Okay, that's that's fine. I'm just I'm just I'm just trying to trying to offer some solutions for you.

But it it's still it's still a concern that everybody has to get to the the parking lot in the back as the uh the area of refuge. So, if they go out the north side or go out the uh the west side, they still got to get around the building and go all the way to the back. Uh that that's my only concern again because of because of the population we're dealing with. It's not school kids that are all living that they can walk.

Correct. And the ratios are very low. So like toddlers it's one to five. You have one teacher for five kids. So they are in control of their children. And again by doing these fire drills the kids learn the rules how they need to exit building quickly and safely. Is it is it Dave? I don't we make it a condition of the approval if that that that a plan be acceptable to the police and the fire department. I I think you uh they have to get the comments from the fire department and my question is would the applicant be willing to slide the building over the four feet to make that area wider?

Okay, we we can do it. So if that's that that would go from a 4 foot to 8 foot wide corridor along the along the drive from six to 10 foot. It pardon me. It's it's a six foot six. Six would go from six to 10. Yeah. I mean you have the number of areas to get through there. Correct. So you're looking for the 10 foot just on this side? No, I'm I'm I'm just looking for to work out. Okay.

All the way around some way. you know, maybe move the sidewalk on the north side off the building or or some way. I I I don't know the answer. My my my only concern is because of the the uh the population you're dealing with, even with the sup this the adult supervision, you got to get these little kids far away and off to the off to the Mr. Felman and Cheryl, you agree then with our board engineer to slide it over to in terms of what he's suggesting. That's the bottom line as a condition. Okay. Yes. As a condition. All right. Thank you. Thank you. But also, can we make it a condition that they have to have a plan that's been acceptable to the fire police department? Mike has that downfire and police. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

My concern. Thank you. Appreciate it. Michael Leandondi. I I don't have any further questions. Thanks. Nice presentation. Thank you. Richard Roarbacker. I've only got one really fundamental what I think is a basic and fundamental question. Why don't any of the drawings show the fencing that is supposed to surround the building?

I'm sorry, Mr. Owen. Can you please come up to the microphone? I think fencing locations are all shown on our plans. Um, they're laid out. You're talking about the elevation. Let me clarify that. Why doesn't the architectural plan show it and state the type of fencing that is supposed to be surrounding the building? So, the reason we don't show it on the building elevations is because it'll obscure the building. We want you to understand what the look of the building will be.

All right. Then the question becomes, what sort of fencing are we describing? Is it chain link? No. Is it is it some sort of vinyl panel? Yes. So, it's uh solid PVC uh fence and there are details of the fence styles on the civil drawings part of the original submission package. Do we have them here? Let's bring them up. I need that stuff. Is that the air conditioning? It's raining. See the fence on the pictures? What's that, sir? You can see the fence on the pictures.

Solid. It's solid fence. Well, it's a different style fence though. this location on the drawings if I remember correctly. They they they show where it's going to be but they don't show what it is. Well, and then here you've got chain link around. That's why I was asking that stupid question.

Yeah.

Because I've got sections that are of the PVC that are five feet high and I've seen four feet and I've got four foot high um screening the whole house generator. Yeah. This is not an exhibit. This is the site plan that was submitted. This is sheet eight of eight. It has the fence details on the upper part of the original submission in December.

Yes. So, it shows the 4 foot um PVC white fence on the left and then the six foot that goes around the um playground area to the right. And and as was explaining the if you using the the photographs of the HVAC uh the top photograph has uh what the the PVC fencing that uh the learning experience uses that the picture shows a sixoot version but it would be a 4ft version that would be going around around the building

around the building. So just to clarify the entire building will have a 4ft PVC fence and the playground will have a sixoot PVC fence. Is that correct? That's correct. Right. Thank you, Owen. That's it for now. For now, Michael Steinberg,

uh, one one quick thing around the traffic. Um, and I I appreciate the the testimony that's been in front of here. It actually answered a lot of questions. And Brian, I think, uh, you you also reiterated a lot of the things that I said. Um, so this is more of a statement than it's going to be a question on this one. If you take a look at um the appendix table AI that Stonefield has provided on here, um I think the one thing that becomes very striking is that lefthand turn lane out of Town Center Drive uh going eastbound, right? Completely agreed that this is not a learning center experience or learning center issue on this one. Anyone who could move in up and down that street would probably run into these same issues on here. But if you take a look at what those numbers actually are, if especially on uh a weekday evening peak hour, it goes from F to F minus I would essentially say, right from like existing condition to 71.8 to 101.9 with the no bill condition to a bill condition of 137.5. Those are not good numbers, I think, is what it comes down to it. So, I think Brian, your point was spot on as far as the town needs to take a hard look at what they need to do with that intersection because if we're intending to grow in that particular area, this needs to be addressed moving forward here. So, more statement than question. So, thank you,

Chairman Kenneth Lowry. U Melissa, I just had a few questions on the license renewal process. Does that come up yearly or every other year? Every three years. Every three years. And what about the license capacity renew? That will not change. That will not change. They'll be grandfathered in um for the center. And again, the the license capacity number is based upon the square footage of each classroom. Is that correct? Yes. And that's based on per child. So the state has a requirement what each child needs per square foot.

Right. And you I think you mentioned there won't be any weekend events or maybe weekend occasionally be some weekends events, but not on a monthly. Very sporadically if we do a summer open house to let the community know that we're here or if we're doing a fundraiser for Make a Wish, but they're far and few between. All right. Thank you, Melissa. You're welcome. Brian Emanowski.

Uh just two quick things. One is thank you for addressing my concern about the roof line. I appreciate that. And um the other thing is and to piggyback on Mike's comments, uh the initial thought I had was a question for Brian and that is if we were to require a right turn only out of the premises. I that's obviously going to add to the problem that already exists in the more congested spot down there. But is there any value to considering a right only out? Um the only thing when you do a right turn only when like say like if I was a county reviewer right for uh Main Street I would ask for the gap study to justify the left turn out. So um they provided that and to make the left turn out and the level of service indicates that um there's the max Q was uh uh about two vehicles waiting to get out. That tells me that driver frustration is minimal. Like if you're doing a daycare drop off and you have to wait for the person to make the those who do make the left to wait for them. And it doesn't to me to the point of frustration where you would need to do like a right turn in and right turnout channelized island. And then my experience with daycare use is that even if you did restrict the right turnout, parents need to get where they need to get to and if they need to save a minute by not recirculating around to a back street and then back around again, they will most likely make that left. So I look at it from the safety point of view, from driver frustration. It doesn't seem that that level of frustration is there. uh and the apple can provide it is that experience there

at that driveway. Um and like we had said before, the left turn of Town Center Drive has its challenges, but I don't think you're going to have the same order of magnitude nowhere near it that you would have for the daycare center. And we're finding daycare center traffic is mostly concentrated in the morning now and then it's more diffuse in the uh PM and the afternoon. So, it's just a design to that and I think they have and because you have the throat of that driveway, you're not on top of where the parents are dropping off. So, on a balance, it seems that you could sort you could live with that left turn. All right. Thank you. I have no other questions. Isabella Artisone.

Um, just one about the drop off times. I know obviously it's 6:30 to like 8:30ish, but what was like the heaviest if you know if that's something you guys measure, heaviest drop off time and then heaviest pickup time. So the heaviest drop off really varies based on the area. Generally I would say since co we see it more between 8 and 8:45ish. Um before 8 is not as much. Pickup again, same thing. you'll see a little bit of a rush around 3:30 when the teacher um parents get out of work and they're coming and then they'll pick up but it's nothing like major it's like spread out and the biggest what I would say would be like between 5 and 5:30 5:45

okay thank you that's all I got I'll now open the hearing to the public just a few ground rules if you all are so kind to try to keep your comments and questions to five minutes or less so everyone can have the time to speak since I'm pretty adamant about adjourning at 10 p.m. as you all know. And Bob, please give your name and address to the secretary,

Robert. Uh, and I believe I just have to say, um, Sparta, Robert Otto. Um, I don't typically go by Bob. Um, that's my one rule. Um, I want to just read the 18-4.37 Town Center Main Street Business Zone description just so we start there again because it's been some time. So the purpose and general requirements for all uses in TCMSB zone is it's a district in which professional office specialty retail service use multif family residential and mixed uses of any permitted uses are allowed. Site plans and buildings shall be designed in a manner that will preserve and mimic the rural and historic character of the area and the township. Preserve the tax base of the township and promote the viability of the existing and future commercial areas in the central business district. Promote the public health, safety, morals, and general welfare. Provide adequate open space. Preserve environmentally sensitive lands such as freshwater wetlands, transition areas, severe slopes, and wetlands. Promote development in harmony with the existing town center by maintaining the scale, form, and proportions of the adjacent and nearby R4 and town center zones. TCMBB therefore promotes the establishment of appropriate office service use specialty retail multif family blah blah blah blah blah. All right. So desirable visual environment through creative development techniques. Uh and then it goes on to say uh unified design conservation of open space prevention of urban sprawl demolition of partial or partial demolition of any structures in the TCMSB shall comply with subsection 18-4.2. But don't look there because it's moved. regarding historic preservation. Um, primary consideration and reviewing the suitability of a proposed use is conservation of the character of the

existing buildings within the zone to accomplish the following goals. And obviously, this is going to go on far longer than anyone needs to hear, but the first one is preserving the resources within within Main Street Quarter which reflect the elements of the architectural history. um and to encourage the continued use of the existing buildings and to encourage appropriate reuse. There's other interesting things in there, but the point is to preserve the streetscape. I think um we heard uh in the last meeting that the building was not historic. I'm not sure if a historic study was done. Um but you know, I've seen on the tax maps it just says 1902. I would just point out that the first Presbyterian Presbyterian Church of Sparta um was I believe the first which church which was incorporated in New Jersey um for the which is across the street um when New Jersey legislature passed the act which allowed for um incorporation of religious societies. And with that on the 50 acres donated by Lord Rutherford um across the street there is mentioned um the parsonage property November 23rd 1786. Actually sorry the church is November 23rd 1786 and the parsonage is May 30th 1787. Obviously, the current building is not dated 1787, but um I would kind of say that if you're going to demolish a property, which has a site, which is kind of revolutionary, we might consider doing further study on that. Um I think there was a mention that it was a single that there are no single family hose homes in this 11 parcel

uh zone. This is a single family home site. Um, we heard the SECA test. Uh, it's obviously an inherently beneficial use. There's no question about that. Um, we heard that, uh, there's these daycare deserts. Um, and obviously the learning experience is is going to have done their market research, but I would just point out that Kitty Academy, Little Genius, Oak Tree, Goddard, Garden Grove, Alpine, Montasauri, Tiny Town, etc. And I believe Alpine Monttoauri just down the road is a good example of an adaptive reuse. So it just strikes me that this proposed scope and scale um the use is significant. It's a D1 variance just on use. So that's intensity um in this zone. But is it is it even more than that? because the intensity contemplates that daycare is going to have drop off and pickups and we're talking about a 10,000 square ft building uh with as I understand it until you get past the threshold of 80 plus kids the learning experience is not making money so they're going to get 150 plus kids in the space um so then I I would just kind of draw attention to are the negative criteria associated with this particular application satisfied um in regards to safety and traffic. We heard from traffic experts that said um based on the data um I think you know we heard some F minuses uh that I would kind of characterize as lay lay person observations are that there's there's concerning traffic and it might be a misperception but then we might need a traffic signal. So it kind

of seems like with FS and we might need a traffic signal there's already a traffic issue there. Um, excuse me, Bob. Let's have Mr. Felman and his professionals respond to some of your comments and questions and then we can have our own planner. Brian, since you're going over the five minutes and again, I know there's a lot of people in here that want to come up and maybe you can come up for a second round. That's I don't want to do I I'll just wrap uh wrap it up and get out of everyone's way uh because I don't All right, I did. Sorry about that. Um, and again, Mr. Felman and his professionals can uh go over your questions and comments. You have All right. Wrap it up.

Yeah. I mean, just just I would just say scope and scale. We're talking about surrounding a 10,000 square foot building, raising an existing building that fits within the uh main street corridor. So,

thank you, Bob. Mr. Felman or Omen want two points. Uh first the the references to uh uh F or F minus level service that was specifically related to the uh eastbound left out turn movement at the Town Center Drive which is which we've all discussed is an existing condition. So that's to be clear that has nothing to do with the site intersection which was uh at the build analysis was a a C and a D. Uh so there are no Fs associated with with the site intersection. Uh and and one more thing in regard to whether there's any single family homes left on uh Main Street in the zone. The seller here is the church. Uh they do use it today as a single family, but of course their goal is to sell it. Number of them are here tonight in support of this application because they are trying to sell the property. So they're not it will not be maintained in the future as a single family that that there is really I don't believe any opportunity for that.

And then Bob mentioned about the potential historic uh issue with the building.

I don't believe anyone on our team is aware of any historic uh designations to this site. We of course would have complied uh with any had we were aware of that. Uh I think perhaps the church uh council who's here this night tonight can speak to it in detail, but I I'm not aware and we've never been made aware uh through any of the uh various uh uh reports from the township professionals that there is any sort of uh historic designation. And of course, we would have complied. We would have gone through the appropriate channels. U we're confident it's not uh the building was not built in 1783. I I can say that much. I know. I I'm not saying there's a designation. I'm just saying

someone should maybe look at the site itself. All right. All right. Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Mr. Felman. Anyone else in the audience with questions and comments? Please come forward and give your name and address to the secretary, please. Jenny Derek's tap into Sparta. Um, Mr. Lowry, I first have a quick question. Um, can can we have an introduction to the attorney that's representing Oh, yeah. He was uh sure. Steven Topalockian. Are you an associate of Mr. Keynes? Partner. Partner and and I'm not trying to cause a problem, but isn't there a conflict between the the firm and Mr. Dyster having represented Mr. Dystra? I didn't know about that.

I haven't represented Mr. Dyster. No, the firm M. Okay. Just just asking. Um Mr. in Tandola had mentioned um that of course and it's understood that there's a presumptive positive uh nature to this project. He kind of inferred though Mr. Antendle I'm not trying to put words in your mouth that they've that they get the benefit of the doubt basically that that don't worry about the negative criteria but I'm going to be using there I have to say that those were words that did not come out of my Okay. I misunderstood what you're saying. So, let's be clear. That's why I'm asking. Let's be clear. I didn't finish my question, but

No, I'm not going to have what I said mischaracterized. Okay. No, I appreciate that. And so do I. So, what I said is that they have to meet the burden of proof that on-site circulation works and interfaces with the public right away in a safe and efficient manner. Okay. They met that burden. It's not any other way. That's the way it is. I appreciate you're clarifying that. Thank you. Thank you.

Um the question though then does continue on about the traffic safety. Um the report that we had I'm sorry I'm not picking on you, Mr. and Tendola. But but the report that we had uh the traffic report that was given to the planning board not too long ago um did show that um the traffic count, which was a 24hour count, um I'm sorry, I'm trying to find it in my notes. um was much more significant number than just Yeah, it was

an average of 12,98 vehicles per day on Main Street, which was um characterized as a major collector. And so that is a significant number of vehicles traveling up and down the road. And as was mentioned earlier, um any any traffic going through Main Street, even if you're just going through Main Street and not interacting, not making that left-hand turn, you're going to be creating more of a difficulty. And the lived experience of people who travel these roads in Spartan know that that intersection is more than just um the left hand, the left turn lane. um our lived experience is that there is a um a challenge throughout the day and Mr. Antola did nicely uh explained that since co there is minimally peak hours in Sparta and that it mostly is spread out throughout the day with and please correct me if I'm mischaracterizing your test your words Mr. in Tandola, but that the peak is basically through most of the day. So that there is constantly traffic regardless of the two hours that were chosen to be studied. And so the question um that we always talk about is the traffic issue. And I would ask the board to consider that that is still a main um concern for the town. and you're adding to 117 cars in the morning, 117 or thereabouts in the afternoon, which is a significant amount of cars in that major collector two-lane road. Thank you.

Thank you, Janie. Would you like to respond? Um yes John and John also just one observation you know if the if the concern is that there's traffic all day long then the childcare use is is is perfect because our our our peak hours are really very concentrated and so we don't provide traffic all day long on and certainly not on the weekend. So, it's very concentrated and we've testified to that to those peak periods. And John, can you speak to the the 12,000 number?

Yeah. John Cororak, for the record. You know, that number is a daily traffic volume, two-way volume on uh you know on Main Street. We've reviewed similar numbers published by the NJ DOT. I have no question on that number. Our study focuses on the peak hour in the morning and the peak hour in the evening because that not only coincides with really the busiest traffic period but also you know when the learning experience has their their peak drop off and pickup generally. Right. Thank you John.

Right. And the testimony given was that there are no official drop off times and pickup times. There are there are um times when it's more um possible that people more concentrated but that that there are pickup and drops off drop offs all the time. There's also I don't want to get too close close. Um there are also um that intersection uh from the data the traffic study data done a four-year study done by the the chief of police indicated that that town center intersection saw a three-fold uh increase in accidents, motor vehicle accidents. And he also he being the chief of police also did say and it's been noted here a couple of times the frustration level and as traffic grows the frustration level grows and people use more risky behavior when that happens that again lived experience of people from town.

Thank you Jenny. Anyone else in the public please come forward. Beth please give your name and address to the secretary.

Uh Beth Broadick Sparta. Um to kind of piggyback on what Jenny was saying cuz I'm a traffic dork. Um Jenny mentioned the chief of police's traffic uh accident study. Um if you look from 20 January 2021 to June of 2024 at that intersection, which is the Sparta section, it was 30 accidents. Town Center Drive had 46 accidents. Um, so that's something to keep in mind when you're looking at Oh, just so you know, 4T is about here. Okay, just to kind of keep that in perspective. Um, cuz when you're 5 foot, you can't do anything with walls. Um, sorry. With the traffic and almost 13,000 people, you're saying 8:00 and then around 3:00 with school teachers. Well, if the schools are getting out, you guys are between Pope John, Reverend Brown, the preschool, two Sparta schools, and a bunch of other stuff in between. That means school buses, student pickup with the personal drivers. So, you're saying, "Okay, well, yeah, there's 13,000 or 12,900 and whatever cars, and it's constant, but your peak hours, your busiest hours are 8:00 a.m. and 3:00 or 4, whatever it was. That means that you're putting extra in and out there when you've got school buses and parent pickup and everything. You also have to remember that Cloveberry, which is a couple of doors down, opens at 8:00. So, you're going to drop off the kids, pick up coffee, pick up a muffin, and bring the kids over, whatever that is. So, you have to factor that in. The other thing, I'm not going to get into all it because these guys are tired of my traffic question, but the other thing that you have to keep in mind is when you're putting in a You guys are going to have to correct me on the size. With a 10,000

square foot use, are you looking at we're considering the other local businesses? Are we looking at small business displacement for commercial gentrification? You've got one large business. Are you disallowing other small businesses and at the same time creating yet another traffic nightmare for a very busy area? And I'm under five minutes for the first time ever. Thank you, Beth. Now, who would like to respond to Beth? Would it be Owen or your planner or I'm a traffic j. I'm sorry. My intersection failed too.

Thank you. Sure. You want to just summarize?

Yeah. So I I just cor again for the record. I just think it's important to to note the balance here, right? We're to some extent we are we have a you know a set morning peak and a set evening peak and very little throughout the day. But also, it's not like an elementary school where you've got the drop off line of cars that inundate traffic volumes. While we still have a peak, it is still spread um you know, across those multiple drop off pickup hours with the you know, we talked about the 30 to 45 minute periods that are the highest, but we studied lots of uh learning experience sites. They don't create those those same levels of what I'll call school rush congestion that really schools do. And that's one of the things that just want to try to clarify for the record.

All right. Thank you, John. Anyone else in the public, please come forward with questions and comments. Question. What was that, Beth? I was also asking about like the small businesses and the impact there. Well, you can have a second go around. It was all part of the five minutes. It was all Oh, you still had five minutes. All right. Please. It was all rapid fire. I just because All right. I wanted to get it all out and not tie everything up. What about the impact of one business replacing or causing issues for several small businesses?

Because again, you've got a 10,000 square foot place, but then you have I'm sorry, bear with me. I've been here not quite as long as Richard, but a million years. You've got these small businesses with, you know, everything else, but then you're going to put a 10,000 square foot one business. What's the impact or the anticipated impact on all the other small businesses whether established or that want to come in but now have a problem and also I have another question to take off. Let's take that question real fast. Uh Owen, could you respond to that if you're so kind or or your planner or someone? No, I don't think it's on uh

just for the record, there's no small business located on the site. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. But it's main street, so there's a bunch of them and and the church has and I think they can speak to this issue. They've been trying to market the property for some time. So it's not as though uh the learning experience has t taking away an opportunity of another user to come in and and uh and use the uh house in its current state. Unfortunately, uh it's been difficult for them to sell the property. uh and so uh I I don't think there's a uh a a a zero sum game here between us and other small businesses. I don't think you understand understood the full scope displacement of So you've got

that's a little bit louder into the microphone please. I'm short. I'm barely 5 foot. Um so it's like the the way I phrase it was the commercial gentrification and small business displacement. So it's not just that one spot. you've got a huge amount of them along there. So, or not a huge amount because half the, you know, there are some other vacancies. It's not okay. Well, the it's going to keep a whole bunch of people out of that one building that you want to tear down and put up a new one in. You're impacting the whole surrounding area, including the small businesses that are established.

Yeah. I think adding this type of business where you have traffic coming to the area actually impacts positively. It brings people to the area, brings people to the coffee shops. It's a positive. You want people in this area. All the small businesses can't survive without people. But it's a safety issue. We have to look at the way it works because when you've got I don't know if you I don't know.

I know you've got a lot of projects going on, you know, up by, you know, Shopright and everything else. I don't know if you've tried to go down on any of the like the town the roads near Mohawk Avenue and everywhere else when school's getting out at 8:00 in the morning. The rush hour is not is non-stop. I can't get out of my street and my street is not half as bad as this one on any given day. And now, you know, you've got to look at the safety for people that are best case 3 ft high. Yeah, we've studied the safety of the intersection, which is your concern, and it demonstrated that it's a safe intersection. It got Fs. We did not get Fs. Town center got Fs. All right. Again, for the record, the F references is the town center. Center.

Thank you, Beth. Uh, anyone else in the audience, please come forward with your questions and comments. Give your name and address to the secretary, please. Pat Caruso, 437 East Shore Trail. I had a question. Allison, you referenced the universal preschool expansion program. Is the learning center going to be part of that? No, that was just Allison, sorry, use the microphone. That was more just to um illustrate how um studies have indicated that there's a need for this use in the area. So for it's to provide n free preschool through the township for 90% of three and foury olds. Correct.

Correct. That's what the universal access. Okay. And I I guess I'm kind of confused is you referenced that program but you're not going to be part of it. That's where I'm confused. That was a report conducted by the uh state department of education on um basically projecting where they anticipate the need the need for preschool but you're not participating in it. So you're not addressing that need for it in the search for the three and four year olds. It it if you're not participating correct it wouldn't be a state sponsored operation but it is contributing to this need that's been identified by the state.

Okay. I was confused by your reference to it if you're not participating in it. That was my question. That's okay. Thank you. Thank you. How many other people are in the audience with questions and comments on this application? Just one. All right. Come forward, sir. Only reason I'm mentioning it, I don't think we will be getting to the C variance applications tonight. 14-25 Pat McGuran and 01-26 Brian Patmia. Since we don't hear new testimony or applications after 9:30 and it's around 9:20 something, Stephen, yeah, you can carry those without further notice then to the next meeting. Well, what what is the date of the next meeting? Um, April 8th.

April 8th. April 8th. All right. Would you like to make me to make the announcement, chairman?

Yes. Thank you. Um, if anybody's here for ZBA14-25, Pat McGuran 10 Summit Terrace block 4014 lot 16 for C varants. And if anybody's here for ZBA 01-26, Brian Patamia 210 Glenn Road, block 35004, lot 5. Those were scheduled for hearing this evening, but given the uh late hour, those are being carried to the board's regularly scheduled meeting of April 8th, 700 p.m. in this room. They'll be no further published or mailed notice. Sorry we couldn't get to those applications tonight. But if you're here for those two, um, April 8th is when they will be heard.

Thank you, Steve. And I apologize to both applicants. Your name, sir?

Uh, my name is Frank Suiki. uh live on Hunter Lane here in Sparta. So uh uh good evening and thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you to the esteemed members of this board uh for your time and consideration on the matter. I just wanted to speak I know there's been a lot of technical architectural engineering references uh to the need and justification for this establishment this structure here in our town. uh but I wanted to offer some anecdotal evidence or not really necessarily evidence but just the perspective because I wouldn't want to stand here and to presume to think to enlighten you as I'm sure many of you are already parents and grandparents of course but uh speaking as a young father myself I can certainly identify uh the absolute need for an establishment like this in this community um I have a three-year-old daughter uh my wife and I moved here from Michigan we were uh born and raised or I was born and raised here in Sussex County and I got to enjoy as the proud member of this community a really strong excellent education uh that started uh not far from here just around the corner on Glenn Road what with used to be called children's care or I'm sorry children's garden um and has proceeded to you know blossom into earning a bachelor's a jurist doctorate and uh now I am a proud member serving my community as the programs manager at Family Promise of Sussex County, which also serves a unique uh perspective on the matter because one of the programs that I serve is eviction prevention. And one of the largest demographics that we serve uh as that agency is serving single mothers, head of household mothers, one income, who have the lack of available child care uh to be able so they're forced to stay at home and have less hours uh to be able to afford their apartments and are facing evictions at

large numbers. But I can say, you know, uh, as a member, as a as a dual working household as well, it's it's a crucial importance to my household and many members of this community who really desperately need these kinds of services. As I mentioned, I have a three-year-old daughter with my lovely wife, and we have a new uh child on the way who will be born in May, another daughter. And without these services, uh, it really uh poses a severe problem on our ability to earn. Uh my wife, for instance, the wait list just to get into a daycare here in Sparta was at least a year long. My wife has to take my three-year-old daughter all the way up to Suffur, New York, where she works, which is a very long commute for a child and poses a lot of behavioral issues and of course fatigue and safety issues as my wife tries to commute her up there. So having something local, affordable, and available would be very impactful for not only myself, but young parents all across Sparta and Sussex County. And of course, I'm also a proud, you know, um, confirmed member of the Sparta Presbyterian Church who will clearly be the financial beneficiary of this sale. That money, of course, will be reinvested into this community. So, I see a whole litany or excuse me, a real um um plethora of really excellent benefits that could serve this community, not only to me and my family, but uh proud working moms and dads who contribute and pay taxes to this community. It'll also bring in a lot of potential patrons to local businesses when they come to drop off their children. Of course, staffers uh at the um facility itself, the learning education center, so teachers alike. Um it'll benefit to the local economy because they'll participate in patroning shops and so forth. Um so I think it really serves a lot of benefits here and I just wanted to make that aware to the board. So I implore you to please really consider this because it'll benefit us greatly.

Right. Thank you, Frank. Yeah. Thank you for your time. Anyone else in the public? And Bob, try to try to keep it to five minutes, please, or less. Yeah. Yeah. This one, this one's You've been good. You've been good tonight. All right. So, because because we're timing you, too, Bob, over here. All right. Sure. All right.

So, I just think that that uh you know, it's ultimately up to you guys, but I feel that the applicants have presented an application for an inherently beneficial use. Um but I don't feel I think there's an absence of proofs that this particular use is well suited um to this this particular property in in scope and scale. Um I think that the proofs demonstrated fail to show the day care is needed in this. They've just kind of generally said there might be a daycare desert. Um I'm I'm a parent of two young kids too. So I will say that there is a need for daycare. So even having said that but there are many uh blocks and lots in this uh area. Um it's also noted that there's a detriment to traffic conditions. Yes, C's and D's not Fs but Fs adjacent. Um and there's demonstrated safety concerns in regards to the parking lot because on the street side you have plantings, you have tight area on the side. Um, and so I would just caution you to refer to those as you weigh that and then suggest that you perhaps you don't have time to, but uh, Inman LLC versus Woodbridge uh, Township Board of Adjustment. I think you guys um, just need to weigh the inherent benefit and that the negative criteria are well satisfied. I don't believe they are. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh Bob, is there anyone here from the First Presbyterian Church that would like to comment? Yeah, I'm uh I'm Daniel Bondorf from Askin and Hooker in Sparta, New Jersey. I I am here on their behalf. I was here just to listen to the application and speak with some of the parishioners here. Um but uh I have nothing further to say other than that we're in support of this application. All right. Thank you. Uh Dan, please come forward. Give your name and address to the secretary, please. Uh my name is Scott Finsellet. Uh 88 Westgate Drive in Sparta. And I just wanted to share that we do have almost 20 people here from Sparta Presbyterian Church.

That's what I thought.

So we we are a church that serves this community. We're a church that has probably up to 100 families that serve this community and live in this community. And um it's something that uh our church has been trying to sell. As you know, we've been trying to sell this property. It's not been easy. We found someone who is a perfect fit for what we're doing. They can use the property that we have and uh we just thank you for the consideration. All right. Thank you. Anyone else in the public? Seeing no one else in the public, the hearing is now brought back to the board. And do any board members have any final questions or comments? No one.

All right. The board will entertain a motion approving the application for Sparta Main Street LLC.

Mr. Chairman, I'll make a motion to have the board attorney draft a resolution approving application number 16-25 for block 20001, lot 41 at 29 Main Street for a DU variance to allow for a child care center where it's not currently permitted in that zone. And we've got some C variances for 42 parking spaces where a minimum of 49 would be required for this application. Uh elimination of off- streetet loading space requirement. I believe there's two of those. Um, yes. Set back for a freestanding sign at 10 feet where a minimum of 20 feet is required.

Um, a sign out front on front of the building of of roughly 121 square feet where a maximum of 55.7 is permitted. Um, and we've got some conditions. Um, that streetscape materials be reviewed and approved by the township engineer. The revision of the landscaping plan to reflect actual and proposed final conditions. Um, the signage package in totality should be reviewed and approved by the township engineer. The construction of water and sewer tie-in be done as soon as reasonably possible ahead of future milling and paving of Main Street. We're going to add a street number to the monument sign. We're going to have the fire and police department sign off on the building plans and egress plans. Um, we're going to slide the building approximately 4 feet toward the north northeast to widen the passageway between the fence and the building from 6 feet to 10 feet. We're going to submit asbuilt drawings at the conclusion of the project and that's according to all plans and reports and testimony presented here tonight.

Thank you, Mike. I believe you got everything. Chairman, I I stand corrected. I don't know if I heard about the elimination of the seven parking spaces permanently. No. Yeah, I I did say it, but um it was one of the the C variances at the front end. Yeah, 42 parking spaces were Thank you. minimum 49 would be required here. Do I have a second? Second. Any further discussion? Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jik, yes. Richard Larufa, yes. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Robecker, yes. Michael Steinberg, yes.

Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. And Brian Romanos Romanowski, excuse me. Yes. Congratulations. you think it's been approved. Thank you and I'd like to thank you and your professionals for all the updated application that you presented here tonight from the original plan. Of course. Thank you very much for entertaining us. Thank you. And anyone in the audience have any questions or comments on issues that were not on the agenda tonight? No.

Seeing no one, the chair will entertain a motion to adjourn. All in favor? I. Thank you. Meeting adjourned.