Zoning Board Meetings - Regular Meeting

No new business or new testimony uh will be taken after 9:30 p.m. and the meeting will adjourn at 10 p.m. sharp. Adocate notice of this meeting was provided in the New Jersey Herald is also posted on the Sparta Township website and its bulletin board in accordance with all provisions of the open public meetings act. Also, formal action may or may not be taken on the applications being heard here tonight. It's practice of this board to salute the flag. Please rise and join us. Pledge allegiance to the flag United States of America to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat]

Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jik, here. Mr. Larufa here. Michael Leondi here. Richard Roarbacker here. Jennifer Paha here. Michael Steinberg here. Chairman Kenneth Larry here. Ryan Rowski here. Isabella Artisone here. Glen Ke here. We also had a new board um new board members tonight. Alternates. The first uh alternate Mike Steinberg was elevated to full board member. Congratulations Mike. Thank you. And

and the two new alternates, alternate one, Brian Romanowski, and alternate 2, Isabella Artisone. Congratulations and good luck with everything. Thank you. We have minutes from June 11, 2025 to be approved. The chair will entertain a motion. So moved. Second, please. Second. Any comments on the men uh minutes? Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jophic, yes. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Robecker, yes. Michael Thyberg, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, yes. Also, July 9th, 2025 minutes, the chair will entertain a motion to approve. So moved. Second, please.

Second. Any discussion or comments? Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jipek, yes. Richard Larufa, yes. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Roacher, yes. [clears throat] Jennifer Panaha. Yes. Michael Steinberg, yes. Chairman Kenflowry, yes.

The applications to be heard tonight, one was carried from uh January 14, 2026, Woodport LLC for a DVR Dvariance one. Billboards are not permitted in the zone. and also application 16-25 Sparta Main Street LLC in the TCMBB zone B variance one where childc care facilities are not permitted in the zone. After the applications are heard, I'll open the hearing to the public for any comments or questions they may have for items not on the agenda tonight. Woodport LLC, please come forward.

[clears throat] Good evening, Mr. Chairman, board. My name is Todd Hooker from the law firm of Aaskin and Hooker. I represent 66 Woodport LLC on this application. And Mr. Hooker, you know the process here from the last time. After you're done presenting the rest of your application, we'll open it up to our town engineer and planner for their reports and then the board members who have questions and comments and then back to the public for their comments and questions if any. Understood, Mr. Chairman. And also for the record and the public, it's a Dvariance. Well, you'll need five affirmative votes to prove the variance. And if it is, it's tied to the land in perpetuity as you know. Understood.

And then before you begin, board member Rich Larua, myself just had question or two. Rich, if you want to take it before we start the process. Well, just when we left the last meeting, there was a question of whether this should be considered a sign or a billboard. And uh the applicant and again, what is the application we're looking for tonight? And I just like you to start off by restating what you're here for that you perceive your application to be and who you are representing. Okay.

I do represent 66 Woodport LLC. The applicant here um which is the owner of the property as as you may remember Mr. Cintron owns 66 Woodport LLC. He has the offices of the corporate offices of Anori there because if you've been to the plaza you know it's a very small tight store and you can't do all the administrative stuff there plus have all the inventory. So his offices are at 66 Woodport and the stores in the plaza. Uh and the application is to uh use the the sign that's outside of 66 Woodport now that's not being used for anything as a directional sign um to direct people to the plaza for the store. Um I looked at the Sparta code actually after the last meeting to to look at that and billboard is actually not defined in your code. Um so I think uh it fits under the definition of advertising sign which is defined in your code which is a sign that advertises an off- premises business. Well, this is as close to that as possible because while there is an on- premises businesses business at 66 Woodport, it's telling people to go to the retail store in in the plaza. So, I think it comes closest under your definition to an advertising sign, which is also, I think, synonymous with billboard, but billboard is not defined in your code.

Okay. One question I have is the applicant is 66 Woodport LLC.

The owner of the property. the owner of the property, but is as the owner of the property, the corporation 66 LLC, they wholly own an is I'm concerned that this may be the situation where we have a corporate ownership that has another business and you're trying to advertise one of its businesses that's located elsewhere. the the property owner and the registration. I assume it's 66 LLC. And you have businesses. You own the property. You rent building the building there. That's a business of yours. You have another business called Anor the store. Yes, sir.

Which is another business owned by the corporation. And what you're you're advertising is another business owned by the corporation at this location. So, does that constitute? Yeah, excuse me. The Noria has two locations. Its corporate offices are at 66 Woodpour. So, it's a tenant there and the store in the plaza

is uh I'm confused. Is there a distinction between a a corporate ownership of multiple businesses running multiple businesses and one of them being somewhere somewhere else located even though they're both corporate ownership is this location. Does this constitute an off an offsite sign or does this constitute a billboard for another business that's located somewhere else? Well, I knew that that was coming up and I had an opportunity today to talk to your planner and I think he's going to have some things to tell you that I think will actually straighten out your question. So, I'd rather you hear from him and then I will tell you some things. he's had a chance to look at this because I was concerned in a slightly different direction as to ensuring that the jurisdiction stayed here and that in fact they still needed to use variance and I'm convinced that they do but that's why we have the smart guys.

Go ahead Mr. Hooker you can proceed please. Um, in in an effort to address the board's questions from the last meeting, we have prepared uh three additional exhibits which were circulated to the board secretary uh board's council and the board's engineer on February 2nd. I hopefully you got them. I asked them to send them to the planner because I didn't have his email address. Um, I think we should start by marking those and then uh proceeding with that. David, I uh have a a a stamped copy of the survey, updated survey for you. Um but because those are expensive, I just have copies for everybody. You and the board secretary get the official stamp copies. Then I have regular copies for the reg other members. I think we're going to call this A4. Uh just identify what's 84. It is a uh updated survey site plan for the uh for the property that shows that the billboard is going to be moved out of it's sitting in the rightway by I think two or three feet based on the survey that was marked as A3. Uh we're going to move the billboard over and this is the survey to show where it's going to be moved to. So it's out of the state right away. We give you everybody the rest. [clears throat]

Yeah, I have two more. I'm trying to get my pen here so I can mark this. And then the uh second uh new exhibit that we're going to identify is uh the board uh was concerned about the condition of the current sign and asked it to be spruced up. So we have uh some proposals for the sprucing up of the sign. Um that'll be A5. We have two designs. one that we prefer and we'll tell you which one we prefer. Um and and another option in case the board doesn't like our preferred design. Um so this will be A5 while we're doing that. Is everybody here eligible to vote? All the regular members. Where are we?

Well, all the regular members could vote. All the regular members can vote. Okay. That's my recollection as well. Always want to check on the record.

And the last uh exhibit, the third new exhibit will be A6. And this is a um um A5 shows a mockup of the sign with the picture. This is an alternative picture. And one of the things that we had talked about at the last meeting was uh making the picture a little smaller and making the bottom of the sign just text. Um but as you can see from A5, the sign is being reduced significantly. It's it's currently um um almost 8t long. Seven it's 7 ft.8 in long. We're reducing it to 4T. So, it's going to be much smaller and the A6 is designed to show you the um thinker now. That makes sense.

[clears throat]

Once everybody gets A6, I just want to discuss A5 and A6 for a second. does everybody have A5 and A6 now? So, starting with A5. Um, and if you have A2 handy, I don't know if you guys hopefully you have it, you brought it with you. Um, the A2 is looks like this. It's the dimensions of the current sign that's on the site now has the dimensions on the sign. And then if we look at A5, you can see that um while the height of the sign remains similar, I think under the the old sign, it's 107.5 in. But if we add Oh, let me just back up for one second. Um, the applicant's preferred design of the sign is the second page of A5 with the full stone base as opposed to two pillars, stone pillars. Um, we think that's more consistent with the neighborhood and the and and it kind of matches the lake pillars as you go down Winona Parkway. It's more full full stone. I think that'll look better, but you know, we gave you guys options. Um but either either way it's still going to be 108 in tall. Um which is about 8 8t 9 in. Um but the the sign area the the current

sign is 73.5 in wide by 93.5 in long which is 7 feet 79 7 feet 8 in. We're reducing the sign uh the the gold the gold frame is the signage area and that's going to be 72 by 48. So we've reduced it by over three feet in length uh to height. You mean

height? Yeah, height or length or whatever. The sign will be shorter. It's going to be it's not going to be as wide, but almost as wide. It went from 73 and a half to 72. But we talked to Kelly down at signs and he thought the proportions would look better this way and be more consistent with the neighborhood with the stone base and you know we worked with him and another designer to try to come up with this uh and meet the I know that uh Miss Panaha was concerned about the size so we reduced it um and uh and made it look nicer because some of the other board members thought it needed to be spruced up. So that that's the idea for A5 is to show you that the sign has been reduced in size and uh and it's going to be spruced up in accordance with what we think is the second page of A5. We think that's a better design. Um and we would hope that the board would agree. Now if you look at uh A5, both pages on A5 have the sign with the full picture and a nor overlaid over the picture. And if you take a look at A6, um, we think that just looks better because the picture looks truncated if you cut it off on that 20 8020 rule. It just looks like it's I don't know. And especially now that the sign is so much shorter or less length, um, we think that the the the first page of A6 and the representation on A5 with the full picture and the Anori overlaid over top of it just looks better. It's more visually more visually pleasing. So, we'd ask that the board allow that the full 48 in be the picture with the text overlaid at the bottom. And then, of course, uh A4 addresses the the signage and the rideway issue being address being taken care of. I I believe that was all the concerns of the board and we think these exhibits sort of represent and address those concerns. Um,

but that's everything Mr. Hooker for the time being. Mr. Citron, do you have anything you'd like to add? I'll open it up to our board engineer. You have any additional information, David, or not?

The only additional comment I had other than the comments that we discussed last time, Mr. Chairman and board members, from my report July 11th, 2025, uh, with the exhibit A4, uh, Mr. Hooker did hand out the proposed sign is relocated outside of the rightway. So DOT approval for having something in the rightway I don't believe is required. It's shown as one foot clear of the rightway. The one thing I think I brought up at the last meeting was I think if the board were to approve this, they would also need a variance for setback for the sign. Well, it's outside of the rightway and it's one foot off. I'd have to look up and see what the requirement is, whether it's 15 feet, 25 feet, or whatever. Uh, but I believe there would be a variance involved for the exact offset from the rightway line. That's the only other comment.

Thank you, David. I do I do recall that from the last meeting and I did request that that variance be granted. That's right. Dave, one quick question. When we measure the sign, do we just measure the sign or do we measure the structure though? I'm taking the one foot offset from the sign itself. Well, but I think the DOT is going to look at it for the structure being outside of the rightway line. It the it's the structure is reflected, David, not the sign. So any part of the structure would have to be one foot off the rightway line.

Okay. When we met when we talk about our sign ordinance, the sign ordinance signs have supposed to be certain sizes, right? We talk about just the sign or we talk about the sign structure being a certain size. I'm talking about the sign structure. David, he was he was referring to just the sign being a certain size. David, the sign is being proposed, I think, at least on A5 6x4. So, it's 24 ft. But I'm thinking the the DOT is going to want any part of the structure out of the right. Understood. But 24 square foot sign. Oh, the sign itself is the picture if you will. And that's that's how you calculate, right?

Yes. Not not the instruction, not the frame on the side. No, not not for the sign area. I'm sorry. Okay. Make sure how the ordinance was written for the the sign itself. All right. Rich Brian, you have any additional information?

No. the uh the applicant has presented the uh I think at the sign package that we were looking for. Uh the less obtrusive I think the smaller sign. I know that I know they want what they want but we're trying to stay within the spirit of your ordinance. Uh so if they would you know uh consider moving that one forward that would be great. Uh the question uh uh from uh chairman um I'm sorry board member Larufa is that it is unclear on the corporate entities uh uh in terms of on premise um presence but for the to meet the spirit of the NJ do it there isn't there isn't a distinction in my experience with that if the corporates if there's common corporate ownership not that I'm making a legal anal analysis it it doesn't the that analysis doesn't go it doesn't go too deep you know uh with respect to that so but I would say that a reasonable condition of approval is that if the existing ownership changes in any way from what it is now then they would have to come back to the board you know because that's what you're granting the non billboard sign on is that you have an on premise presence that's being wayfinding to another location. For all that to work, I think the uh the ownership entities have to stay intact to meet that kind of the spirit of the on premise um benefit of the doubt because your ordinance is unclear and if it's not explicitly permitted, that's why we're here for the D1 use justification and that's why you control aesthetics, signage, and location because that's your prerogative. I I think I don't hope that explains what you were looking to get an answer to.

But they they don't it's not drilled in too deep in terms of ownership. But if the existing ownership would change, then I think they need to come back to the board for that reason. Okay. My my my concern, it's still unclear, but my my concern was that we have a a a contractor, for example, who has this corporate business at one location, but he has different businesses that he runs. Even though he's running them all out of the one location, can he advertise his businesses all over town on his prop on that one piece of property?

I would say that as far as I understand the zoning board process, it is this is a unique application to this set of conditions and it's not a gateway to other advertisements on this specific board or or advertising sign. Okay. I think the testimony was he's only going to advertise for Anori on that board and and the condition of approval could be that. I mean that's all he intends to do. Yeah. I was thinking more of setting a precedence for other other

I think we can we talked Brian and I talked about this because I knew that was the issue and as far as I'm concerned you can certainly distinguish this because this is almost this is almost a wayfinder sign on this property and uh in order for the board to have jurisdiction you got to find that they do require in fact a use variance and I I think that's where Brian, I'm not speaking for him because his adult

uh that's where we're going with this in order for you to have the jurisdiction. It really is a unique situation. It is a it's not something like a little directional sign that you have on on your parcel that says exit an entrance or something. This is pointing you to something on a different piece of property. So, in some ways, it acts as if it is a billboard, but it's not. It's kind of a billboard, but it's kind of not, I guess. Right, Brian? Yeah. It's uh because it's unclear. That's why you have jurisdiction,

right? That you're you're looking at your ordinance as the the applicant's attorney said, it's like it's unclear whether it's a billboard, but you are making the interpretation uh in this particular set of instances. All right. Thank you, Brian. Marissa, would you call on the board members for their comments and questions, please? Sure. U Michael Jipek. No questions at this time. Richard Larufa. Uh just one other question. Would the samples you show one just has the picture [clears throat] in the address saying Lakemore Plaza your your preferred one. You said that the second page of A5

second page of A5 just has an already located in the plaza and that's fine. First one had better men's closing. And the question is, we want this we want this to be a directional sign or are you looking to be able to put anything on that sign like for sale this week, on sale this week? They both they both have better men's clothing. They do. Yes. No, we don't. This doesn't have it. Oh, that that one. Um yeah, one one's an advertising sign and one's a directional sign. Is it It's going to be directional. It's going to be directional. Uh, I think uh A6 is uh is a clear indication of what we're going to do.

Would you consider a restriction that can only have the address, the name and the address on the sign? Or not the address, but Lake Mo Plaza. Yeah, fine. I have no problems with that. Okay. And no other questions. Michael Leandi, I have no other questions. Thank you, Richard Robecker. No questions. Jennifer Paha,

I just had one question that I don't remember the answer to. Um, was there any discussion about the the overall location of a sign with this much appeal to it in that spot, you know, down a hill that close to an intersection? Is is there something that has to be addressed or is that just Well, I think if you look at A4,

um there's really not a lot of other space to put it unless you move it closer to the intersection and I know that you did not want that. So, we kept it as close to where we could and still have room to stay out of the right. I'm just sort of talking about the distinction between a the previously benign boring sort of sign that was there before versus you know um you know a an exciting sign um and the location of it being right there. If I'm driving, if I'm pulling out of the theater center and I see your sign and there's a handsome, well-dressed man on that sign and I pause for a second, you know, is there is there any I'm just asking, is there any requirements or is there any thought that goes into, you know, is this is this kind of sign of distraction versus the old boring thing and is that something we need to be concerned with?

Well, I I if I could just maybe uh your question briefly. So, you know, Mr. uh Cron did have these signs up for a while before the town said, "Hey, you can't have those signs up. You got to take them down." And there were no incidents. Okay. And there were no incidents. That's good data because it is a very dangerous intersection. Um thank you. That's all I had. Michael Steinberg. Um no, no questions. Chairman Kenneth Lowry.

I just have a few I just want for the record our board attorney, our planner, our engineer all say it's a sign and not a billboard or typical billboard. Right, gentlemen? Yes, that's agreeable. We can certainly say that, but it you have to look at it. If you say it's a sign, then I think, and I'm looking to Brian for a little help on this, but at least it appears to me that you would lose jurisdiction. I I think this is I think this is something in between, as Brian said, and that's why you have jurisdiction, Mr. Chair.

All right. Thank you. And I guess you looked over the design standards, Mr. Hooker, for the township, correct? You must know them by heart at this point. I don't I don't know them by heart, but I have I have reviewed them. Yes. because it says all signs shall relate to the premises on upon which they are displayed or erected. Nor does have an office there. An office? Yeah. But they're advertising for the clothing aspect at another address.

And that's why we're before this board, Mr. And you don't consider that or do you consider it a directional sign?

Well, we do consider it a directional sign because it's directing people as Mr. Cron testified at the first hearing. I think it might have been in August or September of last year that the um um he would get calls asking where he where where it was to people people come from out of county to go to the store. Um and it's you know nice for him to be able to and as if if you've ever if if you live in Sparta you know how to navigate your way around but if you're new to Sparta that intersection can be confusing and you don't know like how to get down to the lake. You end up driving around trying to figure it out. So that that's a really, you know, Mr. Centron testified that when he had those signs up before the town made him take him down, it was really helpful for his clients to be able to come in and see that sign and know exactly where to go. So, you know, it is a wayfinder sign as a directional sign. It's similar to the one that Perona Farms has, you know, by the quick check. It's similar to the one Caldwell Banker has up at the top of the Winona Parkway on the Lake Mohawk sign. And that's why, you know, we thought that's why he he wanted to do it. It lets people know where he lets people know where he is, where his shop is. And uh and it it seemed to work when he had had those signs up before the town made him take him down and said, "You have to come apply for a variance." They use variance because it's a the town called it a billboard. The zoning officer did when when they made him take it down. [laughter]

And David, directional signs, they have to be located within the interior of the site itself or not. As far as an offset from the property, right?

There are requirements for that. Okay. Before I open it to the public, I just want to put on the record, I think this is going to set a precedent. If it is approved by the members of this board tonight, the billboard signs, that's the bottom line. Everyone seems to be sugarcoating it and passing it along to say, "Oh, we make the decision. I wish it was clear-cut, billboard or sign," but no one seems to, even our professionals seem to uh skirt the issue. So, I'll open it to the public now. Anyone in the public have any comments or questions, please come forward,

please give your name and address uh to the secretary, sir.

Uh Rob Otto, Northshore Trail, Sparta. Um so yeah, just to echo um the chairman's concerns, I'm hearing I wasn't at the last one. Um but I'm just I'm worried about setting a precedent. I'm confused. Is it a billboard or a sign? uh sign clearly has specific design standards. I think the design standards are there to protect uh public health, safety, and welfare. Um within there, I would note that there's a threecolor limit and so you're talking about graphical. Um, the attorney is describing the sign both as wayfinding, well, predominantly as wayfinding, yet it has a graphical advertisement that might change. The attorney for the applicant has stated that it's a confusing intersection. We know that it's a confluence of all these roads where we're talking about uh and you know I think it's it's important to note that it's a wellrespected impressive business and people do come from out of I mean obviously I I need a suit but [laughter] people people come from far and wide uh for your store right so I I think I guess My thing is I worry about setting a precedent. I understand that you want a directional uh you feel that and I'm sure a lot of the businesses in White Dear Plaza would like some wayf finding help. Um but the fact remains I think that Coldwell Banker um benefits from being the the the old lake office from when Lake Mohawk was developed. It occupies that spot. So it has this probably grandfathered in signage. Um, I know that Lake Mohawk, um, with the

buildout had actual billboards that were given up. Um, I think you also referred to Perona Farms. I I don't think any of the billboards or directionals that you refer to also have graphicals. So, I'm just kind of like I think you should choose is it wayfinding or is it advertising? Because I don't think it should be both. If it's advertising, I personally think, you know, as someone who lives here and, you know, deals with that intersection, it's a tricky intersection and you're adding an advertisement which is meant to stimulate your trade, right? It's meant to get eyeballs on it. It's not three colors. Um, and so when our predominant uh issue for for crashes here in in Sparta is distracted driving and following too closely, I I'm concerned that this might perpetuate that. As far as, you know, signage being offsite, I I do think that that's something that this board should consider because while you have an office there, I mean, what's to stop someone from creating hypothetically [clears throat] a hundred uh micro offices in an off-site location and then getting directory signage in the front of it pointing people here, there, and everywhere. So uh and then I would also say while I appreciate that you reduce the size of it, um the the guidelines again exist with a three color um maximum I think to limit distraction um to to highlight that you're in the town center. You have a beautiful store. It's architecturally beautiful inside

beautiful um you know people go down to the the small town village and wouldn't it be a shame to then kind of have this touch off for lack of a better descript like an arms race where oh they got a billboard now we want to get a billboard and then you just have all these distractions um because people say they got this why can't I get this Because yes, this board should be looking at the merits of the single application, but we all know that business owners are going to say, "They got one. Why can't I get one? This is not fair." Right? So, um, so I would just, you know, is it is it directional? Is it are you in a unique situation? You're unique because people come from all over. your your business attracts people. Um, and maybe there's some novelty in that where you could pull people in. Otherwise, you you do get people in there. I would also kind of refer to other applications that have I think come before zoning um electronic billboards that were denied and I think the rationale for that was it'll create more distraction on those streets and what was the purpose for it? The purpose shouldn't be to to to vary the zone requirements. It shouldn't be for financial gain. Does this ultimately right this board has to do the balance of is this in the public good to vary the code to allow you to have your billboard sign, wayfinding sign, advertising sign, whatever it is. And I would just urge the board to

consider if it meets the criteria of um preserving the public good in allowing you to have this at a pretty busy intersection. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Otto. Would you like to respond, Mr. Hooker, to any of the comments or not? [clears throat]

Uh, sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I I um uh I I do think that this application is unique, and I I think I agree with Mr. Keynes when he talked last at the last meeting about this application, if it were approved, is not presidential in any way whatsoever. Um there are a lot of unique circumstances here. You have you have an applicant who's an an owner of of the property in which the sign is going to be placed on and owns another business in town. Uh and there's offices for for that business in this property. I don't think I don't think there's a lot of other businesses like that. Um uh this was a pre-existing sign. Um we're repurposing it and sprucing it up uh as the board at the board's request.

[laughter]

So the original application was just to use the original sign. Um but yeah, you know, I I think ultimately those comments helped make for a better potential sign. Um so um I I I do I do think this is unique in a lot of ways and and my client has agreed to whatever conditions the board wants to impose on that. For example, like if the if property ownership changes, then the sign the the you know the sign goes away. uh you have to you have to be an on- premises business in order to advertise a related off- premises business and that's going to be really hard I think for people to satisfy unless they want to buy the building. Um so it's uh and then then of course nor wouldn't be advertising anymore. It would be the other person's sign on there. Um and and and it's not going to be any third party advertising. It's for one location to advertise the Anori store. No other business. It's not selling space on it. It's not going to be digital. It's gonna, you know, it's going to meet all the other lighting requirements the town has for the indirect lighting, which it currently has. We're not changing that. Um, so I I do think this is a unique application. I don't think it's presidential in any way. Um, and I I think Mr. Kees agreed with me at the last meeting on that. So I I I I that's my response.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Tooker. Anyone else in the public have any questions or comments? Please come forward. Oh, good. It's just the right size. Um, and Beth, if you can go through the process with the name and address. Northshore, Sparta. I promise to behave. If you could speak a little while into the microphone. I was sworn in the last time.

Um, but I have a couple of questions, so bear with me. And they might be a little bit repetitive, but I think the legal definition of a billboard is a sign which directs attention to a business, commodity, service, or entertainment conducted, sold, or offered at a location other than the premise on which the sign is located. Sparta ordinances don't provide guidance for billboards because they're not permitted in Sparta. So, it's kind of there. And the definition also says sign in it. Um, because the store location is physically down the hill and this is the corporate office, then I'm confused as to whether the advertising unit, whatever you want to call it, should that only pertain then to the corporate offices and not the retail location down the hill?

You can respond to that, Mr. Hooker, as we go along for each point. I I want to respond to her quote unquote legal definition of a billboard because it's not defined in the Spart ordinance. So I don't think this is legal in NJ admin code 194-8.14 signs signage types are. So it's a legal definition. This is not something that I found on Google. I'm just saying that Sparta has not defined billboards. I don't know what what part of the administrative code that is from. um 19 col 4-8 A the administrative code the way it's set I can

regulate certain areas of the law so I don't know what 19 is I know for example 726 is all the D regulations um and they have their own definitions and they could be different from I think this may be the New Jersey code but I'm not sure because all New Jersey code okay but anyway so the mic thank you Mr. the microphone there, please. Yeah. So, I I look uh make your comment. You have every right to do that. I just I the definition of That's comment number one.

Okay. That's comment number one. Under the Sparta Township design standards for signs. It references um that the signs that the advertising unit has to be compatible with their surroundings, expressive of identity of the individual proprieties, and of community character. It also says that it has to be non-distracting to motorists and do not constitute a traffic hazard. Pictures and phone numbers on signs are considered a distraction to motorists. So, I kind of want to put that out there. And I know that other businesses have run into this and have been turned down and told no, you can't have all of this other stuff. And also because we're looking at distractions. I'm through that intersection every single day. You have Woodport Road, you've got Stan Hope Road, the Winona Parkway, a gas station that needs a light to get out of. So, you're putting something that's colorful and different than other stuff that's in the area. So, that may constitute a distraction. I also know that with the planning board and the master plan, they're looking at traffic and traffic concerns that the residents of Sparta have, including that particular area and they've been working with a specialist on that. So, I think we have to keep that in mind that we can't be doing something that's contradictory to what other parts of the town are doing and working on. Um, another question that I have is advertising should not be permitted in any zone district in the township and also has to relate to what's on that location. Is this is there a is this a sign for the corporate office or for the retail store? Because the retail store is down the hill which we've discussed and um also it's directional. So, I don't know. I know Rob talked about it and was a lot more eloquent than I am. So, does that all factor in since this is not an exit

and ex exit sign like we see at the bank and Burger King. So, does that all factor in in relation to the Sparta Township design standards? And then I think those were the big ones that I had since everybody else kind of covered most of my questions. Oh, wait. The last one is that under the Sparta Township additional sign standard by zone, it says that a business establishment may display one or more signs not exceeding three relating to its business and already or Nora already has five signs at its location. One on the facade, three on the awning, and one on the side window already exceeding the allowable code. So this would be number six. So, I'm wondering if that factors in as well to what can be approved regardless of whether it's a sign or a billboard.

All right. Thank you. That's all I got. Thank you, Beth. Could you respond to that, Mr. Hooker, with the amount of signs there already on the premises?

Um, I I don't have a response to that. I mean, it is what it is. The uh and that's why we're here before the board because we're asking for a variance to to allow the sign. the um uh I just want to say that to the extent that that she was testifying as to what constitutes a traffic hazard, she's not an expert. It's her lay opinion on that and it really should have no influence on the board is in terms of whether it's a a hazard or not. Um so that's all I have to say about that. There's no expert testimony being given to the board about whether this sign would be a hazard. And and what we the only evidence we do have is it was there before for several months and it wasn't a hazard. So,

and Mr. Citron, any reason you have all those signs now down there at your place? F I think the individual said five signs already down there. Well, I think the awning constitutes one sign. I have the um the sign that was approved by the town for on the facade of the building which I own and also the one on the awning. Those are the only signs that I'm aware of. And that was approved by the awning was approved by the town as well. Exactly. Yes. All right. Thank you. Anyone else in the public have any comments or questions? Please come forward.

Jenny Derek's tap into Sparta. I just have one question. Uh the discussion about the sign itself. Are there uh are there any other examples? The two examples given were Perona Farms and Coldwell Banker. Are there any other examples of signs in the town that the sign depicts has a has a graphic a photographic image do that you know of? Uh David, do you know of any other inh signs like that in the township besides the two Jenny mentioned? Not off the top of my head. How about Tomahawk Lake? That sign still? Yeah. It's a It's not a photograph. It's also the fire, I think. All right. Please don't get into an argument.

No, no. I'm just Facebook. My question is, is there a photograph anywhere else? Mr. Intendola in his last um at the last meeting uh characterized it as similar to a movie uh movie poster and I was so I'm curious if there is any other that you know of in the town that has a similar display. Thank you. Right. Thank you, Jenny. Anyone else in the public, please come forward. Good evening, Kathy Evan Sparta. Can you just give your uh name and address Kathy a little bit louder so the things All right. Kathy Evan cows in Sparta. Kathy with a K or a C K.

E BB I N E BB I N K H U Y S E N. You swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and the testimony you're about to give to help you guide. I do. Okay, Kathy.

Uh, so just a couple points, observations if you will. Uh, this location, this intersection is a fiveway intersection as far as I can tell. Um, there are children that cross this intersection. Um, this is one of the most uh dangerous intersections in our township due to the fact that there are so many cars crossing in so many different ways. to introduce a sign that is a photograph as I just heard. Uh, you know, a photograph you want to look longer at as opposed to maybe something that just has words on it. So, when you're driving and you're seeing a photograph, in my opinion, you're going to want to look longer. But really, going back to the fiveway intersection, there are children that cross that intersection today. It is very dangerous. Um, there are children walking from Whitier Plaza. This is one of our town centers, right? And that's why we want to and we want Sparta to be walkable, right? And we want to encourage children to walk there and and adults. And when you have something that is causing a problem, in my opinion, causing a distraction uh from pedestrians, knowing that there in the last 5 years has been uh a fatality in that area alone without a sign, never mind adding more signs. So, um I'll just I just wanted to, you know, mention that this is our theater center. This is a place where we want kids. Um I don't know that that's a great thing to have another distraction there in a place where there's already five lanes of traffic kind of crossing over there. Um and it just looks out of place, my opinion. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, Kathy. Anyone else in the public? Comments or questions come forward. Seeing no one else, it's back to the board. Board members have any other questions or comments before I ask for a motion to approve the application?

I have one one last one last concern and trying to understand what it is we're voting on and how we're voting on it. Um, [clears throat] you're representing that this is Nori. Their corporate offices are here, but the store is down in the plaza. If you look up Anori on the web, the store is the address. It doesn't say anything about a corporate office and [clears throat] the applicant for this variance is not a nor's corporate office is there. Why isn't the applicant on the application anori rather than 66 LLC

because the the owner is making the application on behalf of the tenant. It's common ownership. Mr. Sron owns both companies. So So Anori is a tenant there. Well, if if if you would prefer, we could get the legalistic language. It's just you could say I meanusion. Mr. Cintron owns both businesses. I mean, the the propertyy's held as in an LLC and the business is a separate legal entity, but they're they have common ownership. So, he's here as the owner of both businesses. If if if the distinction if the distinction is the application should have been made under a nori,

we we can resubmit. That's what you want. Make it under nori. I don't think it makes any any difference the it's not going to change the nature of the relief we're requesting. I I think it does unfortunately. Uh but it's it's just too muddled in legal ease for me. That's all. That's my comment. Often times when when signs application come before the planning board, it's the owner of the of the of the business or the of the property that makes that application on behalf of the tenant. It's pretty common.

Any other comments, Mr. Hooker?

Um, yes, Mr. Chairman. I just to I mean, one of the things the I I agree that the the ordinance on the prohibition, general prohibition of billboards, um, and the ordinance related to signs really relates to health and safety. Um and at the at the end of the day, uh the town has to weigh that that obligation for health and safety against what what other rights that applicants have including commercial speech which is constitutionally protected. That was addressed briefly at the last at the last meeting and I do think it's an issue here on the complete ban of billboards in the town. Um the town has categorized this as a billboard. The town directed Mr. Cron to come before the the plan the land use the zoning board to get a D1 variance for this billboard that he's proposing or sign whatever we're going to call it.

Oh wait a minute if you remember not a typical billboard wasn't that's just the billboard remember I agree it's not a professional said that not a typical it's not a typical bill because of the restrictions that Mr. Cron has imposed on himself that he's happy to make his conditions. He he owns both properties. He owns both businesses. They're related in terms of where the sign's going to be and and where the and where the business is located. Um there's existing sign there. It's not being used. Um and the fact that it's you know directional sign as well. So it it is a billboard I think in a in some sense, but it's billboard's not defined in the Sparta code. So Well, thank you for admitting that anyway. appreciate it.

But uh that's I again I you know we've talked about this now for this our fourth meeting or third I can't remember. It seems seems like it's the fourth but uh you know this is a unique application. It's not presidential in any way because of all the conditions and unique circumstances that are here. Um I don't think anybody else could come in and meet all the requirements that we've met for the approval of this billboards sign that we're seeking. All right. Thank you chair. I'll entertain a motion approving the application. We'll move there. Ike. Would you I like that a lot better, actually. [laughter] You can second it after that goes through the conditions and so forth. Richard.

All right, Mr. Chairman. I'll make a motion to have the board attorney draft a resolution approving application number 7-25 for 66 Woodport LLC, block 2026, lot 3 at 66 Woodport Road for a D1 use variance for modification of the existing monument sign to serve directional purposes for the applicant's business in White Deer Plaza, including relocation. Uh, nope, that's from last time. Disregard that. So, applicant's business in White Deer Plaza. um any existing non-conforming variants for the appropriate setback from the rightway. I guess we'll confirm what that number is and make sure that's captured as well. Um and some conditions that the sign will not be used for advertising or billboard purposes aside from the applicant's business in the plaza. No sub lease or sale of the sign is permitted. Uh provide any lighting detail to be approved by the township engineer and planner. Um, if existing ownership changes for any reason under any new structure, the new owner would have to come back to this board to consider using this to continue using the sign. Um, the copy is going to be limited to business name and location. Uh, and you're going to submit an asbuilt plan as applicable according to all plans, representations, and testimony presented here tonight. Right.

Thank you, Mike. Second, please. Second. Marissa, please call the role. Michael Jophic, no. Richard Larua, no. Michael Leondi, yes. Richard Roarbacker, yes. Jennifer Paha, no. Michael Steinberg, yes. Chairman Kenneth Larry, no. Unfortunately, gentlemen, the application has been denied. Thank you for your time.

You're welcome. Thank you for all your efforts, too. Florida Main Street LLC. Please come forward.

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman Craig Felman but affirm Paris Acriman on behalf of the application. And Mr. Felman, if I can just go through the process after uh you're done with your professionals presenting your client's application, our professional engineer and planner will give their reports. Then our board members with any questions or comments will go next. After we're finished, I'll open it to the public. And as you know, this is a variance. You'll need the five affirmative votes to approve it. And if it is approved, it'll be tied to the land in perpetuity as usual. Understood. And uh please speak clearly and loudly into the microphones. It's a state requirement. We have a recording of all proceedings.

I will. At this point, we have four witnesses this evening. Architect, traffic engineer, site engineer, and uh and planner. And just in light of the time stra, I'd like just move right into that if that's okay. Craig, you can sit however you're going to be comfortable, but get Owen to set the stuff up and premark them and then with Cheryl.

Thank you. And Craig, I don't think you've appeared here much, at least since I've been back. So, if you have something up there that was submitted as part of the application, we don't need to mark it. Just identify it. And if there's something new, we will mark that. Okay. Craig, we have Let's see.

And keep your voice up. It really is a dead night in here, it seems. I don't I don't know whether it's just me or what, but you having trouble hearing? Uh, no. Oh, it's just me. Okay, thank you. [laughter] What? You just got to turn it on. Would you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth in proceedings before the board tonight? So, help you God. I do. And who might you be? I'm Cheryl Schwiker. S C H W E I K E R architect with Jal Kell Architects and Engineers.

Uh and you're a licensed professional architect in the state in New Jersey. I am. And have you made appearances before other boards, Cheryl? I have. Not this board, but other boards all over the state of New Jersey. Right. And this is the traditional stuff that you do. Is that correct? Absolutely. Board accepting of uh Miss Schw. Any questions from the board for the professional? Nope.

Okay. Okay. Also, just one note since we have two members, you all are allowed to participate even though your alternates as much as you want. Uh you just will not be called to vote unless we have a shortage or somebody steps off. Okay. Okay. Council. All right. Cheryl, are you prepar you preparing any plans for this evening? Yes. And what are those plans? Uh we have the uh architectural floor plan. Could you use the microphone please, Cheryl? So we'll put that. You only want to hear from him from you. [laughter] [gasps]

Uh we have the architectural floor plan SA 3.1 which was previously provided. Uh we have the uh architectural color elevations essay 3.2 2 which was also provided but I don't just identify them as you're going along. Sure. Okay. Just start your testimony. Okay. Thank you. And Cheryl, have you previously prepared plans for the learning experience before? Uh yes. Our firm is a uh preferred vendor and architect for the learning experience. Our firm has designed over 400 centers for the learning experience and about 75 within the state of New Jersey. And as the preferred vendor, have you previously given testimony as to the tenants operations?

Yes, that's correct. About how often have you done that? Um, a dozen times within the state. Okay. If you don't mind, uh, can you explain what the learning experience is and who they are? Sure. The the learning experience is a national franchise child care chain uh, similar to other franchises that you may be familiar with. They operate um I think close to 500 centers now across the nation. Um with many of their first ones being in the state of New Jersey and approximately how many are in New Jersey? Uh operating they have about 75 to 80 operating. In fact, they were found in New Jersey. Isn't that correct? That's correct. Yes.

All right. If you don't mind using um your exhibits, take us through the design details of the project. Sure. I'm going to use the mic. Yeah. Is that on? Yeah. There you go. There. Can you hear me? Okay. Um, so I'm going to talk a little bit about operations and architecture of the building. Um, and take kind of take you through um a day uh of the facility. Um, [clears throat] so the facility is currently designed about 10,750 square ft.

And if you don't mind, identify that exhibit please. Uh this is drawing essay 3.1 the floor plan. So based on the licensing calculations we have 158 children in the facility ages uh from 6 weeks to six years. Um the facility the classrooms are all sized and laid out appropriately to the state child care licensing requirements. The facility will be required to be licensed by the state to operate as a child care facility. And which agency in New Jersey licensed childare? Uh it's a department of children and families. Okay. So they will be inspecting the center after construction and ensure that it meets all their rules and regulations.

So before opening do you have to get a license? Uh so the license is obtained after the building is built and the certificate of occupancy is issued. Thank you. Uh so in a normal day a parent would park, walk their child into the facility. There's a secure vestibule. They enter through a key fob. There's a computer. They log them in. They walk the child to the classroom.

Um drop their child off and then exit. And the same kind of sequence for pickup at the end of the day. Um we find that uh drop off and pickup happens over a course of a few hours in the morning and then in the afternoon it ramps up. Some children are half day, some children are full day. So parents come at their convenience to pick up and drop off. There's no set start time to the school day where everyone's showing up to drop off or pick up. Excuse [clears throat] me. Um, in addition to the floor plan, we have a uh playground attached to the facility. So, when the children uh are dropped off, they're within a secure facility. They don't leave the confines of the facility. They enter the playground from a central corridor. And there's a playground divided in half with play equipment that is designed for the uh appropriate age of the child using the equipment.

And is that playground fenced? Yes, it has a six-foot solid fence. Okay. So, the only way into playground is it through the building itself. Uh, that's correct. But there are um emergency egresses out of the playground as required. Okay. So, I'm going to move to the um the architecture of the exterior and I'm going to start with some photos of the existing building on the site. So this exhibit So this one we have to mark. Yep. Will be essay 3.3 just mark it as A1. A1 please.

Did you take the Did you take these pictures? No, I took them off of uh Google Street View. Honestly, did you enhance them? Did you do any of that AI stuff? No, I did not. Okay. So, this is what you see is what we got, right? That's right. Yes. That's your testimony. Approximately when did you you pull this off of Google? Uh, yesterday. So, the exhibits marked uh February 10th.

Thank you. Um so these are some Google Street View images of the property with the existing structure there um that will be um removed showing view from looking headon looking uh northbound on Main Street, southbound on Main Street. And you can see the the view is obstructed looking um southbound or northbound with the large tree on the adjacent property. Um so understanding the architecture of the existing structure that's there um which we we find that couldn't really be converted to daycare because it's it's too small the age trying to bring the facility up to the standards that a child care facility needs is just not feasible. So in looking at the new facility so this is essay 3.2. These are the elevations that are in the packet, but this one is colorized.

So, the the original one was not colorized. Uh, I believe the one that was submitted was not color. Well, this you remember. All right. We're going to mark that as as A2. Okay, that's fine. I I I think there was. I I don't think there were color. Okay, we'll mark it as A2. Black and white. They were black and white, right? Yeah. Thank you.

So, the new facility [laughter] um is has architectural themes in keeping with the main street and the other buildings uh in the area. We have a sloping roof, uh kind of residential looking, uh siding, lap siding, uh divided light windows, some shutters, architectural shingles. So the the the architecture of the building is is keeping with the the theme of the the area. And if you don't mind, just point out the directional which I believe is west uh the the main street direction, right? Yes. So the proposed uh west elevation is the view that you would see from Main Street and then the the east uh which is facing the parking area is is the top.

Correct. So, the east elevation is where you're going to park in the parking lot and enter the building in the rear at the east elevation. Um, let's see. Want to talk about signs. So, regarding signage, I'm going to leave the elevations up. So, currently we're showing building mounted signage on the west elevation. which is the main street side internally illuminated. And then we have another sign, building mounted sign on the parking lot side on the east elevation. And we also have a monument sign. So this drawing is SA3.4. Um we'll mark this as A3. So this drawing um demonstrates the design for the monument sign which has a sign area of 21 ft and it also provides the areas for the building mounted signage.

And this signage is is this something that learn experience typically requires for their centers? Yes, this is their branding signage. Okay. [snorts] So, a little bit more about the building itself. It will be designed and constructed in accordance with all building codes. It'll have a sprinkler system, fire alarm, um proper egress. Can you speak to the exits, emergency exits?

Sure. So, if we go back to the floor plan, you'll see that each classroom has its own exit door to the outside, which is why we have this 4ft fence around the building to act as an an extra layer of security in case a child did open a door. Um, they're not running out into the street. And what kind of fence is that? The 4ft fence. That is a 4ft solid PV PVC fence similar to the playground fence, just 4 foot. And it's white, I believe. white PVC. Mhm. Okay. Can you speak to the HVAC and where it's located on the property? Yes.

So, the HVAC will be all rooftop mounted behind the mansard. So, there'll be a well behind this roof here. So, all the equipment will be on a flat section of the roof hidden behind the uh shingle manser roof. And and just to clarify, it's a one-story building, correct? Correct. And approximately how many square foot is the building? uh 10,754. Okay. Can you speak to um kitchen and and how the children are fed?

Sure. So, there is a warming pantry in the facility. There's no stove. There's no hood. They're not cooking. There's some microwaves. All meals are brought in catered, pre-cooked. They're just warming them and serving them. So, essentially a microwave. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Is there any generator associated with the property? No generator. Can you speak to the hours of operation?

Sure. So, the facility will operate from 6:30 to a.m. to 6:30 p.m. Uh, as I said before, pickup and drop offs are staggered to the parents convenience. Um we have the facility designed for 158 children but we find that there's a a number of absenteeism every day sickness vacation. Um some children have siblings so they're coming in one car. So we're not seeing that the center is full on any one day because of again sickness or whatnot. So we say 158. Where does that number come from? Uh DCF regulations. What is DCF? uh the Department of Children and Family the licensing regulations.

So the the regulations, how do they decide the number 158? It's based on the square footage of each classroom. So the square footage determines the number of students that can occupy the school. That's correct. Can you ever go beyond that number? No. Okay. Uh is there a difference between the maximum occupancy versus the actual enrollment at the school? No. In terms of the number that's well you have you have a a maximum capacity right determined by your licensing correct but on is there is the enrollment always at that number the actual enrolled students the the school will enroll 158 ch children right okay

can you speak to how the children are dropped off in the morning sure so um the the parents park, they walk their child in, check them in, walk them to the classroom, and then exit the building. And then the same is true for pickup. Approximately how long would you say this process is? We find it takes five to six minutes, and I know a traffic engineer has data to back that up. Okay. So, unlike um let's say uh an elementary school, all the parents are lined up in their cars waiting for drop off, is is it is it akin to that? No, because there's no set start time to school. Parents come at their convenience of their schedule and they actually park in the spaces. Correct. Okay. Do you know off hand how many spaces are provided here?

Uh I don't remember. The engineer can provide that. Yeah. Okay. Will the child ever be late to school? No, there's no set start time. Okay. In regard to parking, and I know the the traffic engineer was speaking more as to parking, but has the learning experience approved this site? Yes, they've done their studies and demographics um to ensure that there is a demand. They wouldn't um build a center in a location that they didn't think was feasible. They've done many studies. They're successful uh franchise. So, um they know what areas that they want to develop in. Okay. Is parking a material factor when they're selecting sites? Absolutely.

And do they specifically look at the parking requirements here? Yes, they have their own minimum number of parking required. Okay. Uh let's talk about uh where the staff park. So the staff also park on on site? Yes, they will park on site. Usually they're directed to park in the spaces that are furthest from the entrance. Um there's also data that shows some of the employees use programs like ride share, Uber, Lift to come to work. And do do all the staff show up at the same time?

No. So um the the facility will open with like a handful of teachers and as children arrive they kind of learn the schedules. So teachers start showing up as more children show up and then the same is true at the end of the day as um children leave the teachers start to leave. So approximately uh when does students start to start leaving the school? Like is do they is it around 5:00 p.m. 6 p.m. When is uh it could start as early as noon. So why is that? Some children are half day. Um some you know again parents are picking up at their convenience. Maybe they're picking up an older sibling that gets out of school at 3 or or later after work. So, there's different end times that they pick up. Does learning experience allow for half day programs?

Yes. Okay. What about special event planning? Is are there like u graduations, birthday parties, those kind of things? Um, so if there's ever a special event that would require the whole school, they would do something offsite that could accommodate uh the volume of people. if they were going to have some kind of say graduation, it would probably be for one class. Um, the biggest classroom only holds 20 kids. So, if they were going to have a a graduation for the preschool three class, um, it's for 20 kids.

As to that point, does each classroom uh have a uh maximum number of students in that physical class? Yes. So there are maximum group sizes per DCF's rules and regulations. So you can just to clarify DCF is the the department of children and family. So in a given classroom there's a certain number of students could be in that classroom. Is that correct? So if for instance the uh the infant classroom is full, can you ever go beyond that number? Um not in that room. So sometimes what they do is they would change one of the other rooms to be a different age group. Um but they would never overenroll or maximize for that classroom. For that classroom. Yeah.

Uh is this uh is learning experience basically open Monday through Friday? Monday through Friday. No weekends. Right. So will there be any parking requirements on the weekends? No. All right. Are there any special events on the weekends? Uh no. The only um and outside of the hours from 6:30 to 6:30 um there's a cleaning crew that would come you know twice three times a week in the evening to to clean the facility. Yeah. What about uh the question of loading? One of one of the uh waiverss that are being sought in this application is regarding loading. Does the learning experience have any real loading needs?

No, there's no school bus that comes to the site. They don't get large deliveries. Um if they're getting their catering deliveries, it's in a small van. Um you know, Amazon UPS truck. Um nothing larger than that. Right. Can you speak to the playground and how it's designed? What kind of equipment's there? any safety protocols that are there?

Sure. So, the playground um again is uh enclosed with the six foot solid fence. Um the surfacing will be artificial turf. There is play equipment in there on each side of the playground for the age ages of the child using it. So, we have a infant toddler playground on one side with age appropriate equipment and then a preschool playground with uh equipment for that age. the equipment will be inspected um by the state and requires to have its inspection stickers on the equipment in order to be used. All right. Sticking with the grade school analogy when uh everyone goes out for recess at the same time. Is that what happens here?

No. So each classroom is scheduled um times to use the playground. So it'll only have one classroom for the preschool side and one classroom for the infant side out at the playground uh at once. All right. Are there any special safety protections in within the playground itself? Uh so the the equipment is designed um per the uh playground requirements. There's fall zones. Um so everything is designed to meet those regulations. Are there anything to shield the students from uh uh let's say the sun for instance? Uh so that we have two uh awnings uh in in the playground. We are required um per department of ch children and families to provide shade areas. There's water fountains.

And there's water fountains as well. Uh when the students are in the playground, are they monitored by staff? Yes. So the the uh child teacher ratios must be maintained similar to in the classroom uh must also be maintained in the playground. Okay. Will the learning experience offer kindergarten? Uh, if there's a need from the local school, they'll offer it. Um, but it's primarily their their curriculum that they provide. What about busing? No busing. Okay. All right. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Felman. Thank you, Cheryl. Who's your next professional, Mr. Felman? Uh, Owen Dyster, sir. Please come forward. Owen. So this is a a colorwized version I gather you've made. Okay. So we'll mark this A4. Not yet. Okay, please. I'm sorry. Owen, do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth proceedings before the board tonight god?

I do. Speak your name and address and who you are and what your qualifications are. Owen Dystra, 11 Lawrence Road, New Jersey, professional engineer. Testified before this board before many times. Can't even remember how many. Your licenses are valid as of tonight. Right, Owen? Correct. Thank you, Glenn. Owen, can you turn that [snorts] a little bit so the public could actually see it too? I don't know how you can accommodate everyone, but maybe you can do something over there. While he's doing that, council, this is this was submitted, but the colored version has not. So, we're going to mark this as A4. Is that correct? It was not submitted with the color. Correct.

Right. [clears throat] But no, the plans were submitted. It's just not the color. Correct. Okay. So, we're going to mark this A4, which is a colorized version of the site plan that was submitted in connection with our application. Thank you. Maybe the public can move a little bit closer to where the Owen is so you can see the plans. Thank you. Uh, thank you. Oh, and is there a date on this?

Thank you. Excuse me, Brian and Isabella, can you see the plans? Okay from there. Thank you. Oh, you're fine. You're good. [clears throat]

Can you hear me? Oh, before you start with the with that exhibit, did you receive a copy of the completeness letter from the town? I saw the review letter. Yes. Yes. and uh and the other letters from the various professionals and departments of the town. I did. And in response to those uh various letters, did you prepare any sort of documentation in response? I prepared a response letter that was submitted to the board today. All right. I believe the board has it. Does the board have We have it. We can go over it after you're all finished with your presentation there. Great. Thank you. We have all the documents. Okay. Perfect. I'll just start

if you don't mind. Thank you. The property is known as tax lot 41 block 2001. It's in the town center main street business zone. It's a 1.66 acre track located on Main Street across from the Presbyterian Church. It was formerly part of the Presbyterian Church. I think it had a a house for the preacher as well as some overflow parking. The property has approximately 145 ft of frontage on Main Street. And just for the record, uh we are a contract purchaser. The applicant is a contract purchaser to buy the property from the church. So it is still owned by the church.

The existing site has 42 parking stalls on the northerly portion of the property. It also has an existing dwelling, a garage, and a shed and some other minor structures. There's also some wooded area in the southerntherly corner of the property and it's bounded by a couple of commercial sites. Um there's two commercial sites to the the south the former Southern Bank is to the north and to the east is the uh spark.

It's a it's a town hall community. proposed learning center building is located 31 feet off the off the rightway. So it's 31 feet set back from the rightway. The rightway has been expanded by five feet as part of this application in order to get the existing streetscape improvements within the rightway. So we're donating five feet to the township and the 31 ft is measured from that new rightway line. The building conforms to all setback standards. It meets Oh, and excuse me a little bit louder into the microphone. We can never hear you on YouTube when we uh watch. That's the goal. No.

All right. Good.

Now, um the the building conforms with all the setback requirements. Um it meets the front yard, sideyard, rear yard requirements. Um, we have a two-way access coming along the southerntherly side of the property along tax lot 40 that goes to the parking lot. That's a 49 stall parking area in the rear of the site. Um, the fire marshall had requested that that access way be labeled as a fire fire zone um fire lane and we'll provide signs and pavement markings to that effect. The parking is area is designed in a loop. So people come in, they can loop around, find a parking stall. They never get stuck where they have to back out. The ordinance requires one space per 200 square ft, which is 54 parking stalls. Per the state law, you get a credit of one um parking stall per EV ready space. we're providing to buy the EV ready spaces. So, the 49 parking stalls that we're proposing meets the code requirements. The primary building entrance is it actually in the rear of the building because that's the most uh easily accessed from the parking area where the parents drop off. They'll drop off some they'll park in this parking area. They'll come down the sidewalk, come through [snorts] the vestibule to deliver drop their children and then they'll leave through that and can leave the facility. So the front of the building looks like a front entrance, but the actual entrance to the building is in the rear.

Decorative LED lighting per the Sparta Township standards has been provided on the parking lot to provide adequate lighting in accordance with the parking standards. Um those lights will go on at 6:00 a.m. and they'll stay on till 900 p.m. during the dark hours. As suggested by the environmental commission, we did provide porest pavement. The lighter colored areas where the parking stalls are is porous pavement that allows for infiltration and water quality features through the pavement that acts as a filter as well as allows water to infiltrate the surface. Um there's no shared parking agreement with the church. Um the overflow parking is no longer required by the church because of changes in membership at the church. So there's no agreement there. Um also there's no loading area proposed as Cheryl mentioned. There's no requirement for one from the learning experiences perspective and also the ordinance only requires it if there are deliveries required. So it's a question whether it's a waiver or not but we asked for it as an abundance of caution. Um, no generator is proposed. We also have a trash enclosure located at the [snorts] rear of the parking area. Um, as far as anybody who's delivering trash will walk out the front door, there's down a sidewalk to the trash enclosure. The trash enclosure has a gate. Um, it's it's designed so it's easy easily accessible for a garbage truck that can just nose right in there. There's a playground area at the rear of the building that's in dark green here. As Cheryl mentioned, um the surface is artificial turf. It's also a permeable

artificial turf. So that actually allows for water to um go through it through a gravel into the providing infiltration as well. Um it's fenced for the safety. How high is that? Is that a sixoot fence? My notes say four, but Cheryl said six. So, six foot fence. Thank you.

There's also a sidewalk around the entire perimeter of the building that's also fenced. That's with a 4ft vinyl fence. There's a gate in that fence to a sidewalk that goes out for pedestrian access to the street. Storm water has been designed in accordance with the township storm water management requirements. The current flow paths have been maintained. In other words, the water where it was flowing is still flowing. However, we've reduced the volume and rate leaving the site through various um features. That being the the um forest pavement as well as we have an infiltration basin that collects all of the roof water in order to put that into the ground. Mr. Simmons had a few comments regarding the storm water and we'll address those with his staff provided we get approval. U there's also a ground lit monument proposed at the front entrance. Not at the entrance, at the front of the building. Um we located it right in the middle of the site. We looked at different locations along the site and there's a an existing two-story structure just immediately to the south. So if we put it where it could meet the 20 foot setback, it would be blocked by that building. So we felt it was more appropriate to put it in the middle middle. Um, we've set it 10 ft back from the new set new rightway, which would have been 15 ft from the current rightway. So, it's a variance for or a waiver to allow the sign to be 10 ft off of the rightway that also puts the sign that you see here is kind of a exhibit. Um, the sign itself is 9 ft. So if it's 10 feet off of the rightway, then nine feet and then it's nine feet to the building to the columns on this part that sticks out. So it kind of sits right in the middle between and it feels like the appropriate spot for that sign. And also being in that location, it allows cars that are coming northbound,

because of this building block being the learning experience building, they'll be able to notice that that's the location they can enter without missing the entrance. That building is set forth a little bit closer to the to main street. Is that correct? Yeah, that looks like it's about 15 feet off of our new setback, whereas ours is about 31 at its closest point. Thank you.

Uh we've also provided extensive landscaping on the site um in accordance with the ordinance requirements. There's large trees in the rear. We saved them where possible um in the areas we had to disturb. Obviously, we've removed trees, but we have provided a uh evergreen buffer to the rear to try to because these are all deciduous trees. Providing evergreens kind of gives it an understory, so it'll provide more of a break for anybody living in these units looking at this facility. Um, the environmental commission requested review plantings for native and invasive species. We did go through the plant list on our landscape plan and we did have one for Cythia which is a uh non-native. So we could replace that if the board would prefer with a winter bur holly

and oh and you agree with all the recommendations the environmental commission made correct agree with them I mean the recommendations part [laughter] I I responded to them you know they have a lot they recommend the building be smaller you know we don't agree with that obviously you know there was a number of recommendations that you responded to accommodate their recommendations we've [snorts] done the poorest papers we've provided Ed the I see you responded to all of them also in your report correct right

um there's al they also asked for additional screening both the planners and uh Dave's report um and we will provide that on the westerly boundary and I think on the westerly boundary of the parking area as far as utilities the facility is currently the existing building is currently on sewer. I I thought it was on septic but we verified that that was changed over in 2020 2004. Um it's on water and the proposed facility will also be on sewer, water, natural gas and electric.

Believe that covers pretty much everything I had. And will you be covering the traffic report too or do you have a traffic engineer? We have a separate traffic engineer. Mr. Chair, how about the fire report? The fire report I covered as far as the um uh the fire lanes. They also we agreed to the locations for the uh hookups that they have. I was a little confused though. Did you see the letterhead? Township of Hardy. I noticed that. I did see that. Was it Sparta? So I don't know if that was just shared service. I think it's a shared service. Oh, it is. Yeah, shared service. Oh, all right. Good. Okay. Anything else, Owen? That's all I got.

The next Thank you. Next professional, Mr. Felman. Yes, Matt. Matt, did you see this?

You swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And we're seeing it before the board tonight. So, I hope you got it. Yes, I do. And who are you tonight? Uh, Matt Seckler. That's S E C K L E R. I'm with Stonefield Engineering Design. Address is 92 Park Avenue in Rutherford, New Jersey. Matt, you're a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey with a particular expertise in traffic. Is that correct? That is correct. And you testify regularly on behalf of Stonefield all over the state. Is that correct? Correct. And your license is valid as of tonight. Is that correct? Valid and good standing. Yes, we got you. Anything else, Mr. Chairman? That sounds good. No questions from the board, etc.

All right, Matt, aside from the fact that you're you've been qualified as as a traffic engineer, have you specifically uh provided traffic testimony in regard to uh childcare centers? Yes. Uh over a dozen in the state of New Jersey for this uh specific user as well as about uh a handful of other daycare facility users. and your firm Stonefield Engineering. Have they also provided beyond what you've done? Yes, we've provided probably three dozen uh traffic studies in New Jersey related to uh daycare centers. Okay. And some of the testimony you're providing, is it based upon the cumitive knowledge of both yourself and your firm's experience in in providing uh traffic testimony for childcare centers? Yes. All right. Great. Thank you.

So, as part of this project, we did prepare a traffic impact study. It was dated October 30th, 2025. I'll briefly go into the data we collected, the methodology, and the conclusions we reached. I'd also note that we did prepare and submit uh a technical memorandum called the subject was count comparison, and that was dated January 30th, 2026. And in my testimony, I'll describe what that was based on. As part of this project, we did prepare uh and perform traffic counts. Uh we counted the uh roadway frontage right in front of the site along Main Street on July 30th, 2025. It was a Wednesday from 7:00 in the morning to 9:00 in the morning and 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Uh the police department, I believe it was Sergeant Smith, on January 21st, 2026, highlighted the fact that we did those counts in the summer and wanted to see what the traffic would be like if we counted when school was in session. Uh we scrambled uh because between January 21st, 2026, shortly thereafter, we had that big snowstorm and we had to wait till school got back in session and we did counts on Wednesday, January 28th, 2026. Again, 7:00 in the morning to 9:00 in the morning and 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. along the site frontage. What we found was that the summer counts were actually about 5% higher in the morning and about 6% lower in the evening. So, when I go through my testimony, I'll explain what the differences would be if we utilize the January counts versus the July counts, but I want to have everyone on the board understand that we were responsive to the comment raised by Sergeant Smith in January. And I believe he had provided a subsequent uh memorandum that was dated February 2nd, 2026 that seemed to um you know uh affirm uh the our conclusions in our report and seemed like he did review the

counts that we had provided based on those January inschool session counts. So again uh the board's obviously very familiar with the site along Main Street here. Main Street is a 35 mph roadway under township jurisdiction. Uh it is considered a major collector roadway. Uh obviously it's not as busy. It's not uh an arterial roadway like route 15 is but obviously is vital in connecting uh you know uh local roadways to higher uh classific classified roadways uh in the area. You do see typically on collector roadways uh businesses residential you know uh uh type uses which obviously we are looking to put a daycare center at this site. So in addition to the counts that we performed, we increased the volumes. We counted 2 and a.5% compounded annually for the next two years to basically look like look into the future what traffic would be like along this frontage even if nothing gets built on this property if it stays the same way it is today. That 2 and a.5% compounded rate is based on NJ DOT standard data. They provide for every county and every roadway type what they expect traffic to grow in the area. that accounts for uh nearby developments that may be coming online, vacancies of businesses in the area. Basically, we see a general fluctuation in traffic and they're seeing a trend of about 2 and a half% upwards uh in areas like this. So, we looked at what traffic would be like two years in the future even without a daycare center here. The next step we do is we determine how much traffic this daycare center would generate on the roadways. And to do so we utilize the institute of transportation engineers trip generation manual that is the fin of source used by the county used by the state basically all jurisdictions to project how much traffic a site like this will generate. It's based on engineers like myself who have sat and counted the number of cars that go in and out of daycare centers. We collect that data. We publish it. We collect the data. We submit it to the Institute of

Transportation Engineers. They review the data and they basically publish on a three to five year uh basis uh the new data in a book called the trip generation manual. Uh that manual recently came out uh uh within the last year and we utilize that to project how much traffic this site would generate. It's important to note that this type of user is unlike elementary schools, high schools where you typically have everyone arriving at one time and everyone leaving at one time. There's basically a graduated sense that it's basically per parent need when you students get dropped off and when they get picked up. We found in studying sites um about 45% of the students get dropped off in the morning within the same hour which means that over half the students get dropped off outside of that busy typically 8 to 9:00 hour. So again uh you know when we're talking about our student enrollment and the trip generation over half the students are not dropped off during the busiest hours. They're basically dropped off in, you know, the hour before or the hour after that busiest hour. In the afternoon, it's even more spread out. About 38% of the students are picked up during the busiest hour. And again, you have about a third that gets picked up the hour before that and a little less than a quarter the hour after that. And then throughout the day, as was mentioned, some students are on half-day programs. Some get picked up at 3:00 when the, you know, the uh parent is about to pick up kids at local schools. So again, you do not see like you would have at an elementary school 95% of the students arriving basically in a 15-minute interval. That does not happen at at at um at learning experience. And uh the IT recognizes that with their trip generation rates. Terms of the actual traffic, we're typically looking about 60 cars between 50 and 60 cars uh coming to the site in the busiest hour. So that morning busy hour about 50 to 60 parents would be dropping off and during the busiest hour in the in the evening

again about 50 vehicles to 60 vehicles leaving to get back onto the roadway. Now with the way that our site is designed I think it's important to understand that the way we've designed it is with a very long throat in the driveway. We understand you know certain rush hour time periods along Main Street, it may be difficult to make left turns out onto Main Street. So, we wanted to make sure that the parents that were leaving the site or employees are not blocking the circulation pattern within the parking lot. You could stack at this site here between seven or eight vehicles from the stop bar all the way into the site, which would be about seven or eight minutes of parents picking up their students and stacking in this driveway, which again, when we look at the delay at this intersection at the driveway, we would definitely expect there not to be, you know, more than two to three cars needing to wait at the stop sign at any one time. Now, to uh kind of uh expand on that, we did do what's called a level of service analysis, and we studied the expected delays that you would have for parents looking to leave the driveway here um during the morning peak hour. That value is a level of service C. And that is whether we utilize um the counts that we performed in January or the ones we performed in July because the July counts, which our report were based on, are the higher numbers. level of service C is a delay of about 18 seconds in this case. Uh that would be the expected average weight that you'd have trying to turn back onto Main Street. Uh for example, this board, you may have heard this level of service concept that is utilized by traffic engineers like myself. We grade intersections on an A through F basis. It's a measurement of capacity and delay. Uh it's impossible in New Jersey to design everything for level service A, B, or C. That would be basically if you designed your pipes and even during the worst storm, you basically only used about half of it. Uh as you get up to level of service D& you

still have operating uh ability, but and at level service F, you're basically a failure. You're waiting an extended amount of time. You may see people utilize, you know, decide to make a right turn and U-turn someplace. You see that at level service F. this driveway would operate level service C in the morning peak hour and in the afternoon peak hour it's just ticks over to the level service D uh delay uh criteria basically anything above 25 seconds is considered level service D we're at 25.8 eight. So, we're just a little more than level service C, level service D, and looking to exit the site. Um, if we utilize the counts that we performed in January, it still is a level service D. Uh, again, about a 1 to two second increase over what we showed in our report uh with the um uh with the additional traffic based on the January count along Main Street here. So, overall, when we look at uh levels of service, level service C and D are acceptable. the DOT accepts them, the county accepts them as uh a a um goal when you're looking at designing roadways and sites. So, we could state that with this site, uh the access would be not only safe, but also efficient. Uh we have proper sight lines when you're looking either right or left on Main Street from this location. One of the things we've uh have done is that uh obviously in creating this driveway, we're kind of proposing to um restripe where the on street parking spaces are along the site frontage, but we're looking to leave areas at either side of our driveway as a no parking area for a few for about in one direction about 10 ft and the other direction about 5T so that someone who's parked is not blocking the sight distance for someone trying to leave the site. And I think that's important when you have this style on on street parking. you don't want it to infringe on someone's ability to see properly to get in the driveway and that's something we've designed accordingly uh with this site in terms of uh parking and on-site circulation I would say that we do

Matt one question so the leaving the site it's it's a C or a D depending on the time of day what is the uh level service for north and southbound traffic right so north and southbound traffic on Main Street so if you're looking to come into the site you're making a right turn you basically have no delay uh you just have a free movement If you're making a left turn, you're making a left turn. It's considered level service A as well based on the delay. Basically, you're waiting less than 10 seconds for cars going northbound to basically clear or create a gap. And then you have proper ability to make a left turn into the site. So, level service A is our measurement for the left turn into the site. Again, you'll wait around 10 seconds for traffic to clear in the northbound direction and be able to turn into the driveway appropriately.

So, a both north and southbound. Correct. a both north and southbound. Our driveway again they're the ones with a stop sign it's it's C or just into the D range in the PM peak hour.

Thank you. Um in terms of the on-site design as was mentioned by the uh site engineer um we will have sufficient parking based on your ordinance standards. Um I would also again emphasize in terms of the operations of the site. You heard from the architect we have done we've counted at least a dozen times at uh learning experience sites specifically to study how long does it take for parents to park bring their child in get back in their car and leave. In the morning it's about 5 minutes. In the evening it's about seven to eight minutes is the turnover time. Uh typically parents are in a rush possibly to get to work, get to the gym, get their kid inside in the morning. In the afternoon, you're a little more relaxed. You may ask the teacher how, you know, your child was that day. Did they eat? Things like that. Um, and then you would get in your car and leave. So, um, based on that, uh, there is sufficient parking on site. Um, and again, as we get to the questions and answers portion, which I know will come later, be happy to answer any other traffic questions as it relates to the on-site circulation. But overall, in summary, this site uh, does not create a significant negative impact on the roadway network. We have proper sight lines and safety uh and and uh to provide for safe access into and out of the site and we have sufficient parking on site.

Right. Do you recall what uh it would suggest would need adequate parking for the site? It would typically look at about 37 parking spaces would be what they would expect to see at a maximum at any one time on the site. And so, and we're providing what number? Uh well, we're providing 49 actual spaces, 54 when you get the EV credit. Thank you. All right, Mr. Seckler. Thank you. Mr. Felman, your next professional. Awesome.

You swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth and proceedings before the board tonight. Yes. And who are you? Allison Copsko, senior planner. Jay Caldwell and Associates. Alice. Allison Spear. Last name, please. KO Pso. And you are a licensed professional planner. Yes. And a member of the American Institute of Certified Planners. And you regularly appear before boards either testifying or in representing them around the county and outside the county, too. Is that correct? That's correct. Not before this board, though. Not before this board. And you have a valid planner's license. Yes, it's current. and and in good standing. Thank you, Glenn. Any questions from the board? If not, please proceed, Allison, and speak clearly and loudly into the mic.

You might have to remind me. [laughter] Um, so I do have a couple of exhibits that I'd like to hand out first. Do you need I think one is A5. Craig, so you first one's going to be A5, right? Let me give it to U. Give it to the boss. That's right.

I think we might have to share the second exhibit. Alison, which firm are you with? Jay Calwell and Associates. And you are the for senior planner. Yes. Was representing who? The applicant. The applicant. Yes.

Okay. U picture of it if you need. share this.

So, just as a uh brief overview of the site, um the subject property is located at 29 Main Street, block 2001, lot 41. It's currently developed with a two and a half story structure, various accessory d uh accessory structures, and ancillary site improvements. Uh the site is about 71,000 square feet or 1.6 acres uh irregularly shaped and it has frontage along Main Street. And figure one of exhibit A5 was the first one, I believe. I'm sorry, A5 was the first exhibit. Yes, you're A5, correct?

Um so that's just an over view of just to give you context of where the site is. Uh figure two of that handout contextualizes the property as it relates to the surrounding zones. The subject property is located in the TCMSB Town Center Main Street Business Zone. Um it's a relatively small zone comprising just 11 parcels. Uh direct directly to the south and west is the TC TCC town center commercial zone and to the east of the subject property is the R4 town center residential professional zone. Uh the TCMS zone permits professional office specialty retail uh service uses and multif family residential uses. And so looking at the slightly larger neighborhood context, um it's generally surrounded by commercial and service uses shown on figure three. Uh to the rear of the property is the Sparta Village townhouse community. Directly across the street of uh from the property is the first pres Presbyterian church and the cemetery as well as additional commercial and service uses. So, uh, the applicant is proposing to demolish the existing two and a half story building. Um, as well as the other existing improvements on the site, uh, and they will construct a daycare and early childhood education center. Uh, the building is, uh, 10,754 square ft. Uh there is a parking lot with adequate parking, two play or one playground uh divided by uh the appropriate age groups um and other associated site improvements. Uh this again it's in the TCMS main street business zone. Uh daycarees and education centers are not permitted uses in the zone. Uh in addition to this use variance, there are several uh design waiverss that are being requested as

part of this application. Um I'll first uh go over the the D1 use uh variance criteria. So the municipal land use law sets forth the positive and negative criteria for variance relief. Um it permits the zoning board of adjustment to grant dev variance related in particular cases and for special reasons uh or the positive criteria and then applicants also need to demonstrate the negative criteria whereby the approval of this variance doesn't result in any substantial detriment to the public good or any negative impairment to the intent and purpose of the zone plan and zoning ordinance. Uh so we can look at um the seea balancing test for these uh since um child care is one of the five uses explicitly identified in the municipal land use law as um an inherently beneficial use. Um this is essentially a use that fundamentally serves the public good and promotes the general welfare purpose of zoning. Where a proposed use is is determined to be inherently beneficial. there's no requirement that the site is uh proven to be uh particularly suitable for the use and because um because it's this inherently beneficial use uh the positive criteria are answered um and the negative criteria can be satisfied by um going through the see balancing test. Can you give us the citation for the NJSA that specifically provides that childcare is inherently beneficial use?

Yes, it's um NJSA 405D-4. Thank you.

Uh other inherently beneial beneficial uses um called out include hospitals, schools, group homes, and winter solar energy facilities. So the first uh step in this seeka balancing test is identifying the public interest at stake um with the understanding that some proposals are more compelling to the public interest than others. The second step is identifying any detrimental detrimental effects that could be caused by the granting of this variance. Um primarily substantial detriment to the public good um the surrounding area and any substantial detriment to the zone plan and zoning ordinance. Uh the third step is to determine whether um the imposition of reasonable conditions can mitigate any of these negative negative impacts that have been identified. Finally, uh the board has to balance the positive and the negative criteria that to determine whether on balance that the devariance can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good or uh the zone plan and zoning ordinance. So going back to that step one identifying the public interest. Um in this case the public interest is served by the proposal to provide for child care in the in the form of a daycare and early childhood education center. Um again this inherently serves the general welfare by providing for child care in the Sparta and Sussex County community. Uh we can also note that child care is so beneficial that the legislature has permitted uh has uh permitted them in every non-residential zone. Um this is in 40 col55D-66.6 of the municipal land use law uh that permits child care centers in all non-residential zones and exempts them from certain bulk requirements such as parking standards and uh permitted

density. Um, so it's though it's not directly applicable to this um to the town center uh main street business zone which does permit multif family residential uses. Uh the zone does not currently have any residential uses to my knowledge in my review of the area um and is functionally a non-residential zone. Approximately how many lots are in the uh in the zone? 11. So 11 parcels constute the whole zone. Yes. and and as as far as you know, there's no uh residential properties. Correct. Thank you.

So, step two of that SECA balancing test is looking at the potential impacts of this use. Um concerns about overdevelopment or imposing structures, which would typically be a concern for in the case of a use variance. It's not present in this case uh because the bulk standards are able to be met to be met uh particularly impervious coverage setback requirements and height. Uh the proposed improvements also eliminate prior non-conforming conditions bringing the project closer to the zoning uh standards from a bulk standard perspective. The primary concern in this case is traffic um the traffic associated with this use. Uh a traffic impact study as we've heard was conducted in July and January. Uh we've heard testimony from the project traffic expert. Um that this analysis shows that at peak hours traffic remains at an acceptable level of service. Um this is primarily due to the staggered drop off and uh just the nature at which um the use operates. Another uh concern may be the oversaturation of daycare uses in the area. Um so we have the Alpine Monasuri School that's approximately 1,000 ft north of the site. Um and the Spartan Academy which is about 400 feet south. Uh the presence of multiple child care child care centers can um actually signal signal a strong demand uh in the community rather than an oversaturation. Um especially considering this is a natural a national franchise who has done their due diligence and has determined that this is an appropriate market. Um, additionally, many families uh may remain on weight list or are seeking a more structured educational experience rather than a monasuri type [sighs] experience. Um, and opening another center uh gives families more choices

and ensures access to quality early education. So, I've also had the benefit of reviewing Sparta's zoning ordinance and uh master plan as they relate to this particular area. Uh the TCMSB zone contemplates a mix of uses uh commercial and service uses and it notes that buildings uh shall be designed in a manner that will preserve and mimic the rural and historic character of the area. preserve the tax base of the township, promote the public health, safety, morals, and welfare, and promote development in harmony with the existing town center by maintaining the scale, form, and proportions of the adjacent and nearby R4 and town center zones. Uh so this project does exactly that. Uh daycare and educational uses advance the general welfare purpose. Uh the architectural as we've heard uh the architectural design is unobtrusive and it complements the existing architecture on the site uh and the project is uh compliant with the bulk standards of the zone. And so I also reviewed the proposal in the context of uh the 1984 master plan, the 2016 town center main street business amendment and the 2020 master plan re-examination report. Uh the goals of the town center amendment which uh are directly furthered by this proposal include encouraging redevelopment of of existing underutilized properties, creating a hub of increased activity, optimizing the use of available infrastructure and supporting community health and wellness. So moving on to the third step of the Sika balancing test, we can look at mitigating factors. Um and so the project again complies with the vast majority of the bulk standards and the applicant has agreed to the condition most of the conditions as identified in

your board expert reports uh including working with your board engineer on storm water management uh providing acceptable lighting and landscaping and um additionally the playgrounds are fenced in and there's another fence around the property uh to promote safety. Uh and there's also a natural forested buffer between um the subject property and the town home community directly behind it. And so on balance, the benefits of the project in my professional opinion outweigh the the detriments and can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good. Uh so the proposal uh can also be considered under the non-inherently beneficial standards. Um I won't go into too much detail on that but I would like to point out um that the site also happens to be particularly suited for the use uh primarily because it has direct access to Main Street uh which is a major thoroughare through the township. Um and the site has the ability to accommodate this use um in a manner that's consistent with the bulk and aesthetic requirements of the TCMS zone. And so finally, we are requesting several design waiverss. Um the first being for section 18-5.3s, off- streetet loading spaces. Um the ordinance specifically reads in all zones for every building or use requiring the receipt or distribution and vehicles of materials and merchandise. Um that there should be adequate loading spaces. Um I would opine that this requirement is not applicable to this proposal. um just because the proposed use um we've heard from the architect, it doesn't require the receipt or distribution um in vehicles of materials or merchandise. Uh the next design waiver we're requesting is from section 18-5.3S1.

Um this is the setback for the freestanding sign. 20 feet is required and 10 feet is proposed. And so as proposed, the freestanding sign is uh consistent uh with the vast majority of signage on Main Street. And this goes to exhibit A6 that I handed out. Um I don't think we marked A6. Yeah. So the second um exhibit that I handed out um it's titled Existing Freestanding Monument Signs on Main Street. Um Okay. Did you hand this out? Yes. Yeah. Did everyone see this exhibit?

Fair enough. That's to know, right? I'll mark this as A6. Thank you. And these are just screenshots taken from Google unedited. Um I took the screenshots today. I So they were photoshopped, right? No photoshopped. No photoshop. No photoshop. Going down. and the screenshots or the Google Maps view is from May of 2025. All right, thank you.

Um and so basically the uh this handout just illustrates that um the location of this freestanding sign as proposed is certainly not unusual for the area. It's very much consistent with the existing um character and layout of existing signs. Uh finally um section 18-5.3S2 requires that signs a fixed to the facade of a structure shall be permitted provided that they do not exceed 8% of um the facade area. We are proposing two uh facade signs, one on the front, one on the rear um that are approximately 8% of the sign area of the facade area.

[snorts]

Um, we've heard that this is the standard uh uh our our architect mentioned that this is the standard for um the learning experience franchise. It's not unusual for early childhood uh education center signage, these bright colors. Um and the signage draws an appropriate amount of attention without being visually obtrusive. And it's also a practical um design choice in that uh the drop off primarily happens in the rear of the building. And so though these are design waiverss that we are requesting um if we do look at it through a more stringent approach with the C variance um under the C variance criteria. Um again these are all very much practical um decisions made to uh vary from the design standards. Um and we can also look at uh Poland v. Township of South Planefield wherein the court found that the benefit of the entire development can be considered um and applied to C2 variance criteria. Um and then [clears throat] uh with respect to the neg negative criteria for the C variance um we we can again look at that sign exhibit wherein it's very much in character with the area and not a detriment. Um so just based on these proofs that I've discussed so far um the proposal meets the positive and the negative criteria for the board to grant a D1 use variance and uh the design waiverss can also be granted um without any substant substantial detriment to the public good or impairment to the zone plan and zoning ordinance.

All right. Thank you Allison. Who's next Mr. That's Mr. Chairman. There's no one here from the learning experience themselves. Correct. No, no, not from New York. We have the developer, the applicant, uh, who himself has developed some, um, 20 different locations and as we said, the the architect herself, Cheryl, has testified uh, dozens of times in regard to the learning experience operations because essentially she's a third party consultant to to the learning experience.

Okay. It's the only reason I mentioned I've been on this board many many years. It's the first time I've seen an operation where firm didn't have someone here that was going to operate on a site etc. That's the only reason I brought it up. Understood. So and and virtually everybody on the team has done work for the learning experience as well. All right. Thank you. Parthetically I was the former general counsel for the learn experience. So uh David, could you give your report please?

Yes, Mr. chairman. Uh just for the record referring to the report we prepared dated January 19th, 2026. I'll start out by saying that the applicant had a copy of this report and address several of the items, but I'll just highlight some of them if I may. Uh going to page two under the zoning, as the planner indicated and the engineer indicated, uh the bulk standards were primarily met as far as the layout of the site. Again, it's a use variance for the child care facility, not permitted in this zone. Uh, with regards to the site plan, they clarify no generator. They are deeding some right away along Main Street, which is a good thing for the township. Uh, and with regards to the parking for the handicap and any of that access, I leave that to the review of the township construction official. With regards to parking and circulation, listening to the testimony of the traffic engineer and the planner and the engineer, again, the only uh waiver I found that was necessary, no loading spaces because it's not that type of facility. Uh, the one question I have on the parking facility as far as the Presbyterian Church goes, I think it should just be checked, and I don't know this one way or another, if in years past if there was an application by the church where they banked on that parking being available for any expansion they had on one of their properties. I don't know that they did or didn't, but I throw that out just to make sure no one inadvertently throws the church into a variant situation.

So, I think that's something that should be checked. And specifically, I spoke with uh Bill Ain. He represents the church just last week and he confirmed and because he spoke directly to his client that the church uh has gone from a cent 900 parishioners to approximately 200 and in his in their in their calculation they have more than adequate parking on site at the church. They get about 130 congregants uh on any given Sunday. So they feel they have more than sufficient parking. You're satisfied with that David? I guess

I I would just ask I would suggest I'd defer to board counsel that any resolution that the church may have had over the years just be sure that it's not tied those properties together through some condition of a resolution. You can provide that. You can get that from Bill I would think. Right. I'll take care of it. Thank you.

Just don't want anybody to get into trouble. Uh with regards to storm drainage u again the applicants engineer Mr. Dyer indicated that they would work with our office to address the comments that we had with regards to that. Uh lighting hours were specified. Uh as far as exterior lights by the exit doors, uh perhaps the architect could comment if there's going to be any significant impact with the lighting plan or if it's just basically to uh meet the requirements of the construction code for the exit doors. You want to speak to this, [clears throat] please?

You could, if it's easier, you could just use that mic. That's fine. Um, so yes, the uh lighting over the exit doors is for egress and it'll be shielded. Yes. Okay.

Okay. Thank you. Uh with regards to the architectural plans, there's no generator and they indicated that the uh HVAC will be roof mounted and screened by the Manser type roof. With regards to the landscape plan, they indicated that they'll work with our office to provide the necessary landscaping additional buffering that's required by the ordinance. utilities. There'll be connection fees for water and sewer and also they will be subject to the review of the utility director for Sparta Township as far as the details and what have you are concerned. Um I did point out that there's an existing utility poll uh that may have served the bank building next door. There might have to be an easement for that. I would point out that I believe this board just received an application for an urgent care for that property next door in the bank building. So I would suggest that any easement situation that has to be clarified be a condition of the approval that works out with the property owners so that everybody's satisfied.

Okay. With regards to signage, again, uh the planner pointed out the variances for the facade signs and the setback. Uh, I did have a question and I think this is something for the board to decide. On page seven, my comment number 11 C is, "It appears the columns on the front and rear elevations have decorative quote unquote blocks with numbers and letters on them. The dimensions haven't been provided and they're not included in the sign area calculations." Mr. Dyster responded, and I understand that it's more of a decorative feature than a sign. I leave that up to the board uh to see how they want to interpret that. It's just something that I noticed in years past different applications. I know if uh a particular uh coffee doughnut shop had a D on the handles that was counted as a sign. I think it's something for the board to decide whether they're going to count that or not. And I also pointed out that they've got shown on the plan a temporary coming soon sign. No details have been provided. And if the board was going to allow that, my suggestion would be that there be a cut off date, how long that sign could be in place. Uh item 12, we pointed out some construction details that would be needed uh to complete the plans if the board approves the application. I would only suggest also that on comment 12c with regards to the streetscape repair details that they be subject to review of the township engineer to make sure the materials and the uh and the details match what the township's using on Main Street. They've been doing some repair work and reconstruction. So, we'd want that as a suggestion to match everything. Uh item 13. I again had just pointed out that overflow parking for the church and I think the applicants attorney is going to research the resolution

correct for the church. Uh I'll let Brian comment on any more on the traffic impact study. Uh my understanding is that in the study they talked about banking seven spaces possibly, but my understanding from the response letter from Mr. Dyster is that that [clears throat] is not being proposed as far as banking any parking at this time. There was no community impact study uh provided directly as a report. Uh and finally under an item 16 standard conditions as far as the asbuilt by the applicants land surveyor and also I listed the various approvals that I believe at least would be required for this particular application. And that's my report. Mr.

Thank you. David Brian you could go next please. Thank you. Uh just to lead off, uh with respect to the rearfacing facade sign, uh can we just get details if that will cause any um glare uh to the uh residents to the rear? Was not not clear on that. How's that sign going to be lit? It's internal uh channel block letterings and will be turned off at reasonable hours of operation so that you don't have a sign on at 4 in the morning towards the residence. All lights be off by 9:00 p.m.

Okay. Thank you. I just wanted a clarification on that. And then uh basically our letter has a table of the uh conforming or non-conforming. We lead off that this is a D1 use variance. Uh specifically is this used childcare facility not allowed in the zone. However, it is a uh found to be as the planner had testified to one of the inherently beneficial uses. uh in the state of New Jersey recognizes that that this is a you know a needed type of land use uh and in this particular case the uh the TC zone uh does not allow for that uh but so they have to provide uh you know emphasize the seek a balancing test and I think the uh testimony provided does do that I think that uh you know what we also look for but uh they did cover but they don't have to cover is that it is well parked Uh actually because the parking rate is at the one per 200 square foot as which is what retail is and not specifically to what the traffic engineer said which was uh more of expectation of 37 spaces. So I think it's well parked and not that the snow patterns are consistent uh anymore but that allows for better snow management if you have those extra spaces. So that that kind of works out. And sometimes you have a daycare facility, you have to scramble to manage the snow. So if you have a little over abundance of parking, it's not a bad thing in this instance. Uh so that's those are that was things I want to highlight from our report. Um uh the spaces are conforming in the context of the EV spaces. Um so that works. Uh and then other uh the freestanding signs uh there I don't know if we saw an exhibit

with the 86.5 foot sign on the facade. Did we did we get that or is it available? I just want to see how it looks like relative to scale. I don't know if that was like want to look at that real quick if you don't mind. Brian, can you use the microphone, please?

Look at it real quick. So um the question of the uh learning experience with the uh blocks uh in prior applications and reviewing learning experiences in other jurisdictions I believe that the variance should be considered for that decorative element because it's specific to the learning experience and it's to their benefit. So I think in this instance that square footage should be accounted for and should there be resolution compliance plans specific to an approval should the board move forward on that that area should be included because um it is to me a basic design or signage element to the learning experience and like I said it benefits them and it's not quite it's a decorative element but only to the learning experience. So I think if should the board move forward that square footage should be included. I I think that's just fair to the board to have that accounted for. Um so other than that uh the seek proofs have been been provided. The traffic [clears throat] study uh did support that. Uh uh from our opinion, the the parking lot is wellsized for this use and the longer throat to sort yourself out as a parent is provided. If you're not right on the site, I think overall the site will work well uh in the context of the D1 use variance requested for an inherently beneficial use. That's all I have. Chairman,

thank you Brian. Before I open it to the public, Owen, can you address the temporary sign coming soon and also what David mentioned about the columns front and reel elevation if you can? I'm going to have Cheryl handle that if you don't mind. Um, so we can provide details on the temporary coming soon sign. Uh, it's basically to help them with enrollment while construction is going on and would be removed um before construction is complete. I'll make it a little easier for you, Cheryl. The uh you'll have to get the permit first of all. Sure. From the town and the expiration of the permit will dictate when the sign will be removed.

Okay. Do you know typically how long that permit is good for? Well, I don't even know. Marissa, would you zoning permit? Six months for the temporary sign. Oh, the temporary sign. Uh they allowed temporary sign. I think it's still like for six months. Okay. I think that would be fine. Yeah. Okay. Then about the um the blocks with the numbers and letters on them. We'll provide um square footage to be included as part of the the compliance documents. Thank you. Thank you. Any other testimony, Mr. Felman, from your professionals? No, sir.

Is it okay? I'll open it to the public. Oh, excuse me. Marissa, do you call on the board members? Wait, Miss Idle, the board members have to go first. Michael Javic. Yeah. Um, so I understand the building mounted signs will be illuminated. What about the monument sign or those block columns? Are they going to be illuminated at all? The columns are not illuminated. The monument sign is ground lit.

Okay. All right. And then um I know there was some concern from the environmental commission about uh mature trees being taken down. Do you know about how many mature trees would be removed as part of this project? I ask Owen to handle that if you can. Yeah, I don't have a number of trees. We have an area in the back right corner. Um it's probably a half acre, something like that. Half acre of trees. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That's all. Richard Larupa.

Um, yeah. Couple of just quick observations on the architectural we can make clear up. Uh, the, uh, you're providing a 4ft high white PVC fence around the building. Correct. And on the north side where the classrooms exit, you mentioned about emergency egress. So the classroom doors are only for emergency. They wouldn't use those on a daily basis. Okay. But but for emergency eress, got bit of fire in the building. It's emergency egress.

A little concern there is that they go out that door and 6 feet away is this 4ft high wall. And you're talking about little kids, infants and toddlers being escorted away in case of a fire. They have to go all the way around the building to the front to get out. added additional gates on the street side. So they only only by the driveway. So they have to come down the side and across the front. So they have two ways. They could go through the playground or they could go out through by the street. They have to they have to go go along the length of the building one way or the other in a six foot wide space. Concern that should be reviewed with the fire department.

Correct. And it's in compliance with the building code. We've looked at that in terms of building construction. Okay. The other question has to do with the uh you you mentioned the equipment will be in behind the mansaw roofs up in this the up in the uh so it's a flat area of the roof. It's recessed behind the the I didn't see anything on your floor plan as far as access to that roof. Yes. In the janitor's closet there is a roof access ladder. Okay. And it's Yeah. Wasn't obvious. Sure. Okay. uh on the uh by the entrance by the the two entrances there's some blocks laid out on the pavement or something and I don't I was just wondering what they were for.

Those might represent the columns of the uh covered entry potentially. I I it didn't look like that on it's just on the floor planned. Are are you referencing these two I'm sorry boxes right here? Nope. It's uh there's one here and there. May I come up? Yeah. This here and that.

Oh, those are picnic tables. So there's two two concrete pads where they have picnic tables like handicap [laughter] thing. The the only other observation is regard to the signage. It just seems like it's overpowering. You have the monument sign which I like but then you have the 4ft picket the 4ft fence in the front of the building and then the sign behind it which is going to be partially blocked with the the block letter is going to be partially blocked with the sign in on the front of the building. So, so the fence, excuse me, [clears throat] is going to be kind of sandwiched in between the blocks. So, it won't block the blocks. So, if you look at the floor plan, you can see the fence straddles between the blocks on this side. So, it's not blocking them.

So, it's open to the No, the fence is constructed up to them. Up to them. The fence is six feet away from the building. Correct. The blocks are at the at they're off the face of the building. They're on the fence line. Yes. Okay. That's something different too then with the signage. And it it just seems like you have the monument sign and then the fence and then the building right there all within 30 ft of the Right. So the monument sign is more like a wayfinding sign as you're coming down as we said coming up north main. Just seems like a lot of signage. Understood. within 30 feet of the sidewalk and I'm not sure that it's all and these are not lit. So okay blocks you're referring to

and the sign in the sign in the back of the building is to indicate what other than just to have another name for the building to designate the entrance but it's not telling anybody that's where they are because they know they're already there. It's facing the back the people in the back property is my concern and it's lit. That's correct. Yes. It's a lit sign facing the back of the building that does no serves no function other than to be another entrance. Understood. Okay. Can you guys do anything with that, Allison, or not? Um, we can um have it goose uh lit with gooseenecks if the lighting is a concern.

It It's just something that's facing the back of the building, facing the private property in the back. Yeah, there is no function as far as I can tell. Obviously, the the franchise operations prefer to have this as their ent. Let's try it this way. He's being really polite. Yeah, I'm not going to be polite. Can you eliminate that sign on the parking lot side? Are you looking to eliminate He's talking about all of the signage. So, even the the building blocks? No. Is that what you're asking? Well, not have them lit. Not have the building blocks lit. Leave the building blocks lit. Leave the building blocks but eliminate this. I think it's the lighting that everybody's concerned about. Yeah.

Bart's not in you. You got to hear the other application. Can we have a sign that's not lit back there? Bart is not big on signs. Okay. Certainly we can offer up not having those. Sorry. We certainly can have non-d signs in the back if that would work for the board. Oh, my other concern is I think each of the each of the professionals made a a very good presentation, but the problem I have is that I have different sets of data in each one of the reports. Okay. Which ones you referring to? Uh I have the uh the environmental impact statement which is essentially a learning experience document. It's it's all on their letter head. Okay. No, it was prepared by u Dyra's uh

right, but that's one of the things we're looking at. Okay. And that says that building this size has a maximum capacity of 180 to 185. Now, you represented tonight that it's going to be of 150. Yeah, that document is um uses like a standard document to draw data from. It's not specific to this site. Well, but what we're looking at is what you're presenting to us is specific [clears throat] to this application. I'm seeing different sets of data and I'm seeing I'm seeing data that tells me you could that the building this size could have 180 a capacity of 180

and the state of New Jersey but in other states we could where the rules are different. So that's why the document that you're looking at was generated from the learning experience to draw information from to understand their operations. So that we can have clarification, Mr. Lecture, that for the record that the license capacity for this building is going to be 158, would it be okay have come testify at that point? Guess what he's asking is is simply why isn't it sight specific? Right. Well, not only why isn't it sight specific, but if that's the data we had to were given to look at, right?

What that's also telling me is that instead of now you go to the traffic study and the traffic study says you're going to have 62 turning movements during the rush hour, but that report tells you you're going to wind up having 83 or 86 rather than 62, which is a 25% increase. Now, it may not affect whether it's a a minor D uh level of service or a bad D level of service, one or the other. That's not, you know, it may not affect your results, but you're ask you're giving us information to it. It would affect the results. So, I'm happy to have think Travis will come back and and testify. I would just like I would just like everything to coordinate. Understood. And and you're you're certainly entitled to that. So, the traffic consultant can come back and testify.

Well, wait, wait, wait. I I don't think that I don't think that's what he's looking for. He's looking for documents that walk, talk, and that walk, talk, and quack like they're all in sync. And and you know, we have engineers on this board that routinely do stuff like this and bigger stuff like this. And the concern is, yeah, you can testify to it, but the documents don't all mesh up. Well, we got we got some boiler plate, I think, is the problem. We certainly can revise the documents as well to conform to our testimony. I would just like them to Yeah. And the last question is the uh the current use of the property is what? By the church. Is it is it owned by the church?

It's owned by the church. It's it's primarily used as the home of the of the um of the pastor. And I believe there's also some right now it's in a it's in a it's in a church residential function. It's not a commercial function, but we're going we're changing it to a commercial function. It's it's allowed, but we are changing it to a commercial function. And it's also being used as office I believe for the church. Is the church still going to be the owner of the property or is the No, we we applicant is a contract purchaser. So we will be changing the use. Correct. You also be changing the use. We're also considering that not not that it's not permitted. It's just just what what is it we're doing and who is the applicant is is the question. Yeah. Who is the applicant? Yeah.

The applicant is Sparta Main Street LLC. Who's excuse me the developer of the learning experience location. Okay. We had a contract purchaser from the church. And it's a a commercial operation. It's not a commercial operation there right now. It will commercial operation. Okay. That's my confusion tonight. Thank you, Michael Leandi. I don't have any other questions. Thanks. Richard Roarbacker. No questions at this time. Jennifer Penoha. I have a few questions. Um, our traffic person, is he still here? Yes.

Hi.

Um, I really appreciated your expertise and your knowledge. I I have driven kids to school in this town for 30 years and um I can tell you that I I have a hard time accepting the inputs to your data model because Main Street is so clogged up in the morning that you can potentially have a backup from from the Glenn Road area all the way past and up to Winona Parkway. Um, are any of you guys local here? Do any of you I know Owen you are, but you didn't do the traffic study. Are do you have you you don't live in this town, right? Okay. So, [snorts] I just I I have to say I'd have to see more data. I think your data is flawed because Main Street is extremely congested and it's extremely congested during several bouts of the morning traffic, you know, because of course we have schools starting at different times. So um my experience is that it's terribly crowded and to add even in a tiered way60 you know and I know it's a percentage of that and I you know I understand that but um it's going to be very significant. Um, so I I don't know how to address that, but I think you need to be collecting some data points when we're not fresh off of a a foot and a half of snow and in flu season and we need data points collected when it's a regular busy day in town to be able to run those numbers correctly because I think you're going to be shocked because I think your peak was it was uh 50 cars an hour or 60 cars an hour. Our busiest hour is between 50 and

60 cars. Yeah. Leaving the site or entering the site. I think that's I just think that's darn low for what we see in town. So anyway, I would just ask that somehow we collect some more data because obviously July was worthless data too. That's, you know, that's not meaningful, right? Um the 50 number is not number of cars on Main Street in that hour. It's the number of movements that would come out of the site. Okay. 50 cars would be leaving.

Yeah. And that's you're 18 seconds. I think the other Thank you. Thank you. I get that now. And I And and I think the other data point that I grasped on to was 18 seconds to make a left out of there. And I think you're going to be I think you're going to be hardressed. Is that Is that what I heard? Just to clarify, 18 seconds is the average delay leaving the site. So that is an average of both right and left. So your right might be Yeah. 11 seconds, your left might be I don't have the math of it. 21 25 seconds. So,

and I'm not a traffic expert like you, but all I can say is I think those dates that you collected, it put us in a position of not having accurate data. I think we're going to have to, you know, I'd love to see something a little bit more accurate. Um, that's just my one question. My my other comment is just um child care is always a good thing, right? We always need child care. I struggle with the fact that this just feels to me like we're trying to put a Walmart in where a 7-Eleven should go. You know, it it's just it's it's really packing in that site. You are going to remove basically the entire boundary between this and the residential space behind it. And they're going to have no coverage now. I mean, it looks like you left about three trees. And I understand that because that's the site plan, but um I'm having a hard time understanding the benefit to the town in terms of the scale of it. That's really my comment. Okay. Um I just think it's too much of a good thing sitting in that spot. Um so that's that's just my comments.

Michael Steyberg. Yeah, I kind of want to piggyback a little bit here on what uh Jennifer said as well regarding the traffic study. So, I'm kind of in alignment with what her thoughts are around this one on Main Street. Um, but I think that the question that's not being answered on this one around the traffic study in particular is actually Town Center Drive over there and the impact on that particular road, that intersection is a disaster today. Right? If you start to add more traffic to that one, taking a left out of there or other people taking a left into there, right, that's a traffic study I actually want to see because on the best of days, that thing is backed up and it's difficult to turn. The sight lines are not great. You get piles of snow like you do right now and it creates a lot of danger. Right. On top of that, you have three different child care centers there, right? the proposed learning experience. You have Monasuri, you have Goddard down the road on there. Um, as well as, you know, the the stop and shop that we have. So, for me, I would like to actually see a study around the impact on that road in particular and what's being done and if there's anything that needs to be done either through the town here or even through the state to remediate any of the traffic and the dangers that are going on there. Right. So, that that that's one. Um, also I think um, you know, my colleague on here kind of uh, talked a little bit about the environmental impact study and particular around the trees uh, that are being removed and Jennifer I think you kind of commented on this as well. Um, but we did talk about how there's extra spaces. And as much as I like for that to uh accumulate snow and have a great place for snow on this one, what can we do to help shrink the size and take into consideration the environmental study to accommodate their requests as well? Do we need that many parking spots? Do we need that square footage for the

building? Can we help come up with some sort of compromise that is taking their study into consideration as well as what the learning experience needs here? Last question real quick on this one. Um, in regards to inclement weather closures, how is that handled in particular with the learning experience? Is that done the same way that like Sparta school districts would if like they call out school the learning center's closed or is it stay open and we need to ensure that there are priorities from like a snow removal or whatever type of like you know debris removal type of stuff for for that site

I believe they would close so they would follow the schedule of the public schools. Okay, that is it. Now, chairman Kenneth Larry. Um, yes. Did the learning experience purchase the entire site? Correct. Again, we're contract purchaser, but yes, we will be entire site. Correct. Okay. And how's the checklist coming along with the Sussex County Planning and Engineering groups? I know you have the Zoom meeting coming up next week. Yeah, that was deemed complete. It's all complete. You won't know anything on the checklist with them. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Now for the public. Wait, wait, wait. You still got your alternates. Oh, alternates. I'm sorry, Brian and Isabella. Go ahead, please.

Very quiet. You go first. You're so quiet down here. I didn't realize you guys were still here. Brian Romanowski. Okay. [laughter]

Um, all right. So, I'm my first day, so be patient with me, okay? I'm learning on the job. Uh with regard to the traffic, I understand that the volume of uh people that are dropping off their children at this facility varies over the course of the the morning and then later on in the course of the afternoon. And I understand that there's this service level um and that it takes five or six minutes for a typical family to drop off their child at the store at the at the building. Um, does that can you use that data to figure out how many people or how many cars you expect to be waiting in that long neck at any given time or what will be the worst? And the reason I asked the question is because if people are going northbound and turning into the facility um, and they can't get in because of the backup of people trying to get out, that's going to spill over into the main road. So, I'm trying to figure out if you have any data on that. Yes. So that's actually part of the analysis we prepare. So we prepare a delay calculation which is what I gave earlier. But also the software we utilize provides a queueing number. And basically they look at the 95th percentile queue meaning that the amount of cars would be this or less 95% of the time. And for this site it's expecting to be two to three cars being like the worst queue you'd expect trying to get out. And you could fit seven to eight. And I'm just gonna pull up eight.

You think in the worst case scenario, there'll be there'll only be two or three cars waiting to exit the building. Two or three cars waiting to exit. And then again, we have room for about seven to eight before you get to the parking lot portion of it. And is that taking into consideration the volume at any given moment? Yes. So that takes into account the volume on Main Street. So again, when we counted Main Street in the morning, I'm sorry, I meant the volume of people dropping off. both. So, it's it's it's a factor of both. It's the volume along Main Street and the volume coming in and out of the site.

Okay. Uh with respect to the waiver of the um uh I'm sorry, the loading zone, did I not hear somebody say that there's going to be vendors supplying uh food and meals for children there? Yes, but essentially that's a a box truck that comes like no different than like an Amazon, you know, no different than would be delivered to a residential house. Do we know how big the box trucks are? It's like an Amazon truck. Well, okay. But there could be a large variation, right? We could be talking about something. I believe they're typically in the range of 22 to 24 feet would be the typical delivery vehicle for this.

Okay. Um, I'm curious. I'm I'm sure that the company has done its due diligence to find out uh evaluated the demographics to find out what the demand is. Um, curious how much uh how many children will be served at this location? Is a maximum of 158. 158. And do they expect two times that for applicants or three times that? Do you know offh hand?

It would not be two two times. No, we're doing we build two schools then. But uh Okay. But no uh they essentially the schools start you start uh let's say net net profit around 80 to 90 students. And so the expectation you want to get to is approximately 120 130 would be a very productive school. Right. And what I'm getting at is how certain are they that that kind of a number is going to be achieved? Certain that they want to build build a location right here. Okay. Is it by a long shot? No. Okay. So, maybe like is that Well, any business venture, but but they've done it. Um, sure.

Does this facility require any security? C can we speak to the issue of u childcare deserts? Sure. this there's actually a website called uh childc care deserts you can look up um and you can see in the area um where there's a need for child care and um you'd be surprised in areas where there's already multiple centers it's still considered a childare desert because of demand and Sparta was on uh on the spectrum for for demand. Okay. Um, does this building require any special security

in terms of like a security guard or? Yeah. No. No. So, they have cameras and secure entry with key fobs and so Okay. Um, I'm trying uh have any more questions, too? One more. One more because again, this board adjourns at 10 p.m. I just want to make sure you get Isabella to That's why I'm That's why I'm going to be mad at me tonight. We probably won't even get to the public, but the applicant will be back the next time. Kathy, you know the drill. Okay, Mr. Autot, you know the drill. All right, go ahead. Uh, Brian. Okay, I'll try to wrap this up quickly. Yeah. Um, the um aesthetics,

with all due respect to you, I I have a problem with it for the simple reason that it's a very long and deep building. The roof line looks like a a yacht. It has no almost no dormers. Two little ones. You're going to see it. Frankly, the the the sides of the building are flat. There's no porticos. There's no porches over the doors. There's a light over each of the doors, but it looks to me very much from the side, not the front and back, like a warehouse. Okay, that's all. Okay. Is it Bella? I don't know. This is appropriate question for

it is if you ask it if you ask it

is this like were any other sites considered for this in Sparta at all? Um I'm not aware of that and and of course not every site is suitable Sure. for childcare for a number of reasons and and this site as you as we've testified to uh what's uh unique about it is that we're able to uh you know provide for uh the building the playground and and substantial parking yet still comply with all the bulk requirements. So we're not seeing any uh bulk variances in in connection with this application. So even though it's a use variance, there are no bulk requirements that are being sold here. Bulk variances.

Okay. Um and then just the the rightway dedication is that for the no parking in the front. Is that what that was for? Rightway is for the DOT, right? [clears throat] Rightway is across the lot frontage. The road doesn't have enough space in it to hold the sidewalks. Okay. So we add five. Okay. Okay. That's all I have. All right. I'll now open it to the public. And if you're aware, it's what time is it? Quarter to 10 up there. Yeah. So, we adjourn at 10 on the nose. So, keep that in mind, Mr. Otto and whoever else. Well, don't you normally limit also, Mr. Chairman, the comment.

We try to uh five minutes, right? Five minutes or so. And I I'll run the clock. All right. Bob, please give your name and address again to the secretary. Uh Rob Otto, Spartan, New Jersey. Um I didn't think we'd get to this. Uh so I understand the see test kind of. Um I would kind of echo some of the sentiments regarding traffic and scale because even if it's um uh inherently beneficial use, um does it need to be that size? It sounds like 158 is the goal. uh because you need to clear 80 to 90 kids. Um I'm just going to try to hit the big things.

Bob, we covered all your questions it seems, but go ahead. [laughter]

Uh internally lit signs prohibited I think throughout Sparta, but um corporate design standards are something that you want to hit. Um I would just take a look at that because there are 11 parcels in the zone that you're proposing to build in. Um, and of those 11 parcels, this zone uh has I don't know if the planner read through it says demolition or partial demolition of any structures in the TCMSB zone. Again, only 11 parcels shall comply with subsection 18-4.2 regarding historic preservation. And so if you're going to reference the master plan and if you're going to reference the zone, is it congruent with what the the zone standards um have here published? Um I should also say I'm just speaking as a private citizen. Um but there's a consideration um the suitability of a proposed proposed use in preservation of the character of the existing buildings within the zone. So I would echo you know what was said that um is it [clears throat] appropriate in this area? Um I'm just looking over the Sika the SECA test proofs that were given. Um I mean it's 10,000 square feet. I would argue that I don't believe it's unobtrusive. I agree that the aesthetics don't they may make it stand out. Certainly the rear internally lit sign and the front internally lit sign. Um and I think the intent for TCMSB might be some sympathetic redevelopment, but it's also adaptive reuse of existing historic fabric. Uh,

and I I did I'll have to read up on childcare deserts, but I kudos to the planner for noting all the the numerous daycare facilities that we have, but somehow still saying that while we have saturation on its face, that might suggest that we actually need more. Um, and I I'll leave it to other people. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Bob. Anyone else in the public, please come forward. Kathy, please give your name and address again to the secretary. Kathy Evan Sparta and Kathy, if you're so kind to with the

try to be brief. Um, who is the owner of the LLC? I don't know that I know that was discussed but not clarified. Who is the the member of the LLC? Is that the question? The owner. The owner. There are two individuals here tonight. Can you name them? Louisa Ke and Eric Spongen. Thank you. Um in terms of the um instruction offered, is it prek? Is there before or after care? Speak to it.

Uh so if there's a need for half day kindergarten, they'll offer that. Um and if there's a need for before and after care, they would offer it, but only if there's a need.

Okay. So, thank you for that because it's my understanding that when you offer before and after care, you have the option to um as as seen in Gddard School to have a bus drop off. There is a an actual bus drop off at GDD school today and that serves before and afterare. Um so that's for the board's consideration too. It was testified that there would be no buses. That will change if that is considered for your consideration. Um, I agree that the facade and and the the building aesthetic doesn't seem to match what's on Main Street. Is the building you're tearing down historic? Owen,

no answer. No. Okay, thank you. Um, why is there a need to tear down this building? I mean, we have another um another school like you mentioned maybe a thousand feet from this the um the Monasuri school which operates in a in a pre-existing building that didn't need to be knocked down. So, for the board's consideration, um trying to be quick. I have a lot of questions here. Kathy, you'll be coming back to the next meeting. I sure will. Yes. So, keep that in mind. Yeah. You know the drill.

Okay. I mean, I can I I can cut it short. Um, one thing I noticed in the diagram um that concerns me uh is that there doesn't seem to, and maybe I'm mistaken, be a buffer between the playground and the parking lot. Um, so if someone were to pull through to the parking space and have an accident accidental um gassing of, you know, moving into into the playground area is what I'm what I'm try trying to say. Yeah, we have ballards all over. You do have ballards. Okay. I didn't see them in the in the uh diagram. Thank you. Um the garbage truck um or the disposal area, is that accessible by a garbage truck?

Yes. Okay. It seems to be impeding on the parking spaces that are there. Can you speak to that just based on what I can see from the picture? impeding meaning meaning if there was a car or two parked in front of that area it would block the uh the garbage truck from removing garbage. No. Okay. Uh I can save my questions for the next definitely for the next meeting. You're so kind. Thank you. Anyone else in the public? I think we have about five minutes left. Give me about a minute to get up there. [laughter]

And please give give your name and address to the secretary. Name is Don Kek, KE CK. Address 33 Ele, Sparta. I'm speaking on behalf of the Presbyterian Church that are the sellers in this case. All right, give Let me just swear you in quick, Don. Just raise your right hand, please. You swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Proceedings before the board tonight to help you God. Yes, sir. And you're speaking, you were you were asked to appear on behalf of the board of trustees of the Presbyterian Church or the Senate or who? I'm not, but I am on the board of trustees. Did they and they sent So, are you representing the church?

Yeah, I'm the president of the corporation. That's good enough for me then. So, when they talk about who they talk to about the the use of the church, that's me. Don, you have about five minutes. That's about it. So, I just want to say if nothing else that the church supports this transaction and we put them through a lot of hoops to get to this point, not signs and stuff. That's not our our deal. But anyway, so they've they've run a lot of that through us and yes, unfortunately, we did shrink a lot. So, we don't need that anymore. Anyway, we do support it. So, thanks. Thank you, Don. And again the public with uh other questions and comments the applicant will be back at the what?

March 11th. March 11th. Marissa. Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You're welcome. And I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. What about open to the public not related to applications? Oh, yes. All right. Thanks, Bob. All right. But you have to I think you'll like this one. I think you'll like it. All right.

Um maybe so just as Robato uh Northshore Trail Sparta um as we were talking about signage and for whatever reason I've been reading up on signage the past year and um I couldn't help but notice that 1853 M uh F. We have the use and display of spinners, similar objects, devices across blah blah. We also heard an application where we talked about concerns about you know why do we have signs three color limit distraction driving yada yada yada right so my question to this board and I'll ask the same to the planning board um feather flags uh I've seen these spring up all around us and uh their intent I just googled it uh from some vendors they describe it as high impact visibility eye-catching passing motorists and pedestrians. Um, suitable for grabbing attention with movement, wind driven, and enhancing brand visibility. Um, and so I would just put it to this board, consider that we have a section in our signage um that that dissuade spinners, objects that would attract the eye and uh may represent a threat to health, safety, and welfare. um we have adequate uh guidance in the code already on um portable signage and I would maintain that um if there's a need for trade stimulation in exchange for uh doing so properly that's been well contemplated and it's within portable signage just look it up on the local code it's not under 1853M I forget what it is but uh I would recommend that you guys ask or maybe draft something to prohibit feathers feather flags or just

kind of point people towards that. Okay. He understands what the zoning's all about. But we Well, I'm bringing it up because it may come up in some of your applications, Bob, for the council and the planning board, but nothing is ever done unfortunately. Well, that's what a member of the public is bringing it up and I'm asking you. I understand what you guys do, but they may be accessory uh ornamentation to applications that you hear. As I said, I'm going to bring it up in front of the planning board as well. And I would just ask that you uh consider drafting something to the governing body for their consideration as well. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Kathy. The meeting is adjourned. If I have a motion. So move.

Second. Second. All in favor? I. Thank you all board members for coming tonight and your comments and questions. Give it all again.