Planning Board Meetings - Regular Meeting

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All right. Good evening. On behalf of the members of the planning board and our professionals, I would like to welcome you to tonight's meeting of the Sparta Township Planning Board. This meeting is being held September 3rd, 2025 at the Sparta Township Municipal Building located 65 Main Street, Sparta. Proceedings of the meeting are being livereamed uh on YouTube. The address for that is www.youtube.compartwp. The time is now 7:03 p.m. and this meeting is called to order. Please note that no new business will be conducted after 9:30 p.m. and the meeting will end at 10 p.m. Please stand and join the board as we proudly pledge our nation's flag to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Roll call.

Burke here. Ernie Ragstad here. Brian Zimmerman here. Ron Day. Joan Ferman here. Councilman Mark Scott here. Get Bogler here. Vice Chairman Robert Otto here. Celeste Luciano here. Christine Dunar here. I would like to make a motion for Celeste Luchiano to be nominated for chair of the Sparta Planning Board. I'll second.

All right. So on the uh issue the that is not on the form of the agenda. However, uh that there is a motion has been seconded. Uh during the discussion, this uh issue of the chairperson has been brought to my attention uh by uh Joan Ferman who had some concerns over the voting. She brought to my attention a Hamilton planning board uh decision and I did discuss that decision with um the uh board of adjustment attorney Glenn Kees and also the burough attorney Anendos. uh interesting issue. Uh the Hamilton case is an unreported case. It's out of the county, but it deals with the uh quorum issues and vacancy versus absentee versus uh disqualification. And uh Joan had brought to my attention again this case that if you were to follow the case that since there's the class two vacancy, class one is the mayor, class two is the municipal representative, class three is the councilman, class four is the general public. Since there is no sitting class two member, uh therefore uh Joan questioned whether or not the alternates were permitted to vote. The case law talks about the alternate vote in case of absence or in case of disqualification. The Hamilton case talks about the vacancy is not a disqualification um or an absence. However, Mr. Kees then sent to me a case from our county uh dealing with Morris Plains and McDonald's. And in that case the court had found that uh uh technical irregularities in appointments of board officer is saved by the de facto officer

doctrine. So the de facto officer doctrine holds that acts of those acting in good faith under color of appointment are valid and that cites a Jersey City case which is an appellet division case back from 1959. So therefore, in uh consultation with uh the burough attorney and the board of adjustment attorney, I would agree that the board, even if there's a technical irregularity uh that the Jersey City appellet case in our county by Judge Minkowitz of August 22nd, 2025 would support the position of the board. Uh uh uh Joan did again bring Miss Ferman to my attention that other case uh but I do believe that Judge Minkowitz and the opinions of the board of adjustment attorney and the uh burough attorney are that which we should follow. I do represent the board. I do not represent individuals. So uh again out of courtesy to Miss Ferman, I said I would put that on the record that she brought it to my attention. and I did look at it. So there has been a second and uh any more discussion. I think there was also an email in our package with reference to this uh issue but that is just duly noted as part of the notice to the bureau. I have nothing further. We have a

right I I will say though um it's very clear in statute 405D-23.1 alternate members may participate in all matters but may not vote except in the absence or disqualification of a regular member of any class. and the Hamilton Township case did define vacancy as opposed to um an absence or a disqualification. Um so I will be filing something. So there will be some litigation on this and um I think that it should hold until the litig until that is decided. I also want to point out that um under the open public meetings act and you know there may be some disagreement but it does say that everything is supposed to be on the agenda uh that you can bring it up for discussion but if it's not on the agenda it should not proceed to a vote that it is a public matter um and it defines what a public matter is and anything that you know is brought up in public and this was brought up in public so I would question it on that and I would cite um the distinguishing member from a vacancy. Going back to that, here's the decision. It says here, "The board consisted of eight regular board members who all voted. One seat was vacant. The alternate was not authorized to vote because none of the regular members were absent or disqualified from voting on the matter. The board had a quorum. It was thus authorized to take action. No members were absent. Thus, only regular members of the board were eligible to vote. the alternates should not have voted and um it was a five4 split vote and uh the judge said they could not vote and had to you know go back to it. So I'm putting it on the record and we'll see what the courts have to say.

I want to thank Joan for all her hard work and relentless work. You know she's been doing the right thing here. She knows the MLU better than anybody else on this dis except maybe our esteemed lawyer. Um she's you know what what this really all comes down to is that uh is that Joan has drawn the eye of Neil Clark. Neil has put his desire and drive to have cannabis in this town over all other priorities. His political future is greater than that of Sparta Township's future. He puts his future ahead of Sparta Township's future. He has decided to dismantle boards by taking people off of boards, putting his surrogates on in the boards, and to push his cannabis. He has placed his pawns in place. Let's think of the greater implications of what we're doing here by dismantling this board and its wonderful leadership. You remove someone that lives lives by and enforces the rules and the blocks begin to tumble down. I don't believe that uh Celeste is the right candidate and let us recall that Miss Luciano from the podium here has said two residents said I will chop you off at the legs I will quote me please quote me correct my dis

Mr. Scott, if you're going to quote me, please quote me correctly. Yes, it was what I said. What I said cut me off at Mr. Porro to Mr. Dash. Mr. Porro, what I said to Mr. Dash at the time. All right. Point of order. Uh, please. May I continue? No. Yeah, you can finish. Okay. You know, at at during that case, she ignore the lawyers. She ignored the lawyers. She ignored the counsel at that was giving her counsel. What did I ignore? She led the board into a bad decision on the veterary hospital. It resulted in a lawsuit. It cost the town tens of thousands of dollars and the town lost. And this was all because of Muso's

Councilman Scott. Mrs. Luciano's I'd like to please at the moment. I'd like I'd like to report. Um, first let me say that whether I'm chair or not chair, there's one thing that you as the council liaison should be doing that you're not doing, and that's keeping politics out of our board. You're bringing it here. Uh, no, I'm not. I lit I literally did not start this conversation, sir. You did. Okay, that's great. So, let us continue. Yeah, let us

what I had said to Mr. Dash when he was exceeding his time because I did not want to put a time limit on him. I said, "Mr. Dash, I apologize. I do not want to have to cut you off at the knees, but unfortunately I would like you to get to your point. You can go back and watch the video." Now at the end of that when he came back to the microphone under the guise of I am going to res you were speaking to this was Mr. Dash not a res of the town

which you can actually actually if he were here I would love to have that conversation with him because he would back me up on this conversation. what I had said to him at the time when he was brought back to the microphone to retort testimony that was being provided by Katherine Sarmad when he did not retort that testimony and I asked him if he had anything to add and he did not add anything continued of value beyond his original argument and the conversation it was the last meeting it got heated I am human as is he and he and I have had this conversation subsequent to that meeting. I had said to him after he had said to me this microphone is here for the public and I said that may be true but this is my day. Now here's the point. The point is at that moment in time and any chair who sits in that chair not just me anyone they run the meeting they run the room. Now, if I hadn't been heated, what I should have said was, I am running this meeting. Yes, this day is is here for the people. This microphone is here for the people. I am here for the people. But unfortunately, being the human being that I am, I was heated. He was heated. We've had subsequent conversations and everything has been fine between the two of us since then. So if you want to bring up things that you think you know, you might want to have the facts before you do that. So whether you think I'm the right candidate or not, and I I apologize, Councilman Scott, I didn't think you were the right candidate either.

Oh, well then why did you want to run with me? I didn't. You asked me. All right. That's why I said no. No. Uh point of order. So, uh, if we're going off of that, it's actually my deis for right now. For right now. Correct.

And so, I'd like to take a breath. And I wasn't going to do this, but since you guys couldn't do what we did last time, which was set this aside and let the applicants present and get through what they need to, I'd like to do my own uh suggestion. So, um, could I get you guys to just bear with me for a few minutes? Let's take a breather. Let's take a break from this. Um, for the the last decade or so, I've sat through countless town council planning environmental meetings and I've served on numerous volunteer boards in this community and elsewhere. I've worked with international teams managing complex projects, educating kids, college students, and the general public on boring things and interesting things. Drawing from this collective experience, I ask you to join me on a mental journey which you can either find boring or interesting, but it's not pointless because clearly we need to just take a breath here. So, please close your eyes. Seriously, close your eyes and imagine Sparta in the 1850s, actually 1845. Uh, it is a muddy meadow about where Lake Mohawk was when you last saw it. The meadows full of cows and their dirt roads with farmhouses. Frankly, it smells pretty bad. So, how about we continue about 50, 60 years later, turn of the century will have you enjoying fresh country air from one of the many boarding houses where people have gotten away from the city and they're admiring the surrounding hills. You'll notice some of the roads are looking a little more passable. No sink holes. Sorry, cheap shot. Um, follow along as we move another few decades and it's smoky and loud and you notice there's a dam being built at the northern ed end of Judge Brogden's meadow. You see brush fires as

crews are clearing the meadow in teams and you see steam shovels belching black smoke as they pluck boulders and tree stumps out of the muck. In the distance you see water pooling and moving from the south end of the meadow and advancing north. Another decade and air smells like cut pine and hammering of carpenters and beeping of Model T's as the soundtrack. There's an eager boom of vacation homes followed by the crush of the Great Depression. Warriors follow, work eventually resumes, but at a slower pace. Nonetheless, White Deer Plaza and the boardwalk seem to always be busy. These last two decades have created a close-knit social community. And while Lake Mohawk's building department has continued to grow, the crane company is encouraging their membership to support what they've been working on in concert with the town. A vastly updated municipal construction building department. In fact, a result of this is that they created the planning board that we're now serving on because Lake Mohawk was one of the early planned communities. Some of you may not realize that Sparta's municipal machine was not as fine-tuned as it well I was going to say as it is today. I'm not sure with the latest. Um but it was a cross-pollinating effort between initial agrarian community and city folk that brought in the country vacation lifestyle the crane company built around Lake Mohawk. 1950s now 60s7s and the crane company fades away. Other developers gain a foothold. surrounding patchwork of Sparta starts getting infilled with houses. A few decades later in Sparta's updated its master plan a few decades later in the 80s it's updated master plan to reflect and expect a pretty new vision where today we're at what 40,000 residents. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. All right, so you can open your eyes. Welcome back. Thank you for the diversion. Uh hopefully we all got some rest. So it's 2025.

We we are collectively the Sparta Planning Board. According to municipal land use law of the state of New Jersey, it's our charge to draw from our experience, local knowledge, personal expertise, and interpret the local code and apply sound judgment to not just review applications, but also plan for our future and the future of subsequent Spartans. If I had a contract for these efforts, it would be to improve our community for my sake, for my family's sake, and for the community's sake. I view the time spent on my day as a worthy investment in our collective future. I may differ from some of you in my voting, but I absolutely love that we all feel comfortable in expressing our opinions and arriving at decisions that are a product of pure civic engagement. That said, I do refuse to waste my time and the community's time in plotting and bickering. Um, I'm not going to ask you to close your eyes again, but let's just recognize it's September 2025 and I have been urged repeatedly, start small, don't make waves, recognize that there's significant gridlock in making meaningful progress. Um, but I also realize time is precious and I'm selfish and I want my time here to mean something. So, I just would kind of urge everyone remember why we're here. Remember who we serve, which is the community by the way, the business owners and the residents. And I just ask, you know, my brief time on the deis that we just keep that in mind and we have some applications to hear and I'll turn it back to the rest of you guys.

Thank you, Rob. Yep.

I appreciate that, Rob. Uh, all right. One last thing before the vote. Um, so an email came forward that I guess I need to read into the record. Um, so I will do that. It's from resident Daryl Savage. Dear planning board members, this is for all the members who voted to remove Miss Ferman. There are no individual emails provided, so it must be sent this way. I very much disapproved of your action when it failed previously and was shocked that you would put it up again for a vote after the public outcry against it. There was no credible reason to do this and it is so unsemly and unfair that you are conducting business in this manner, especially as it appears to be solely in the purpose of exacting revenge on her from Councilman Clark. Not my words, Daryl Savage words. I beg you to please govern within the bounds of your ethical obligations in the future. However, I would say the undercurrent is let's just do the volunteer jobs that we're tasked to do. Thanks.

And I've never met Daryl Savage. This is not for me. Never met her in my life. Um she recognizes that Neil Clark interfered and acted as a town manager as opposed to doing the job he was supposed to do. Did not communicate with council and started this whole process rolling. It's a political uh thing and um it's not going to stop. So, I'm just going to back off. It's only going to be a couple of months and things are going to change up here. And uh I'm one vote, one voice. I was before, I am now. And I will continue to do my job for the benefit of the community. So, there was a motion and a second. Roll call.

Roll call. Bogler. All right. So, the vote is to have Celeste as the chairperson. Yeah. The vote is not to bring Sparta back to farmland. Sorry. Yes. Janette Burke, yes. Celeste Luciano, yes. Ernie Ragstead, yes. Councilman Mark Scott, no. Brian Zimmerman, yes. Christine Dunar, yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto, no. And Joan Ferman. I cannot vote for someone who does not have the best interests of the community. So, no. Yes or no? You heard me. Sounds like a no. All right. So, how do you want to do this now? Because we have applications.

We have two applications. If Celeste can take your seat or stay where she wants, wherever she's most comfortable this evening. Actually, Rob, uh, if you wouldn't mind Joan, you can move down here. Rob, if you wouldn't mind taking Joan's seat, please, because I value my vice chair. That's like other chairs. That's a fair request, Joe. So, Anyone watching, don't go by the name tags, I guess.

Dory, do you want me to switch the name tags for you?

Yeah, appreciate it. Let me bug you. Okay. Yes. Okay. Bringing us back to an order of business. We are up to on the agenda the approval of minutes. Uh, it is my understanding that minutes are going to be held until next meeting.

That's correct. I'd like to ask that this is the second time now in a row that we've had minutes that have not been ready for us. We spend the time reading them, going through them, and then they're just not formatted in time. um last time it was presented at the uh deis when we got here and we can't read them at the very last minute. So there needs to be a concerted effort to get them here so that we can do it and not waste our time. Thank you. I will absolutely be sure that we have minutes available to us prior to the next meeting and it wouldn't be the second meeting in a row because the last meeting I had the minutes done.

If you'll recall, Ronda Day sat there with a whole bunch of blanks that we had to fill in because Mr. day had the wrong package because it was presented that evening and nobody got to see it beforehand. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Let us move forward to our public hearing. Right now we have PB 25731 TQP Service Incorporated 160 Woodport Road 2016 lot 11 on the C1 zone amended site plan. Try following that. Welcome and let us

get you through this hopefully reasonably painlessly. Is this on? It is. All right, let's check these. Jay, here you go. Check check check. Uh, good evening ladies and gentlemen. Daniel Benor for the law firm of Aaskin and Hooker located in Sparta, New Jersey. Uh here on um the application of TQP Services Incorporated. Um here on their behalf is Peter Kim and Mr. Jason Dunn. If I can please have them sworn in. Mr. Porro. Yes. Swearing in. Both of you?

Yes. Let's go with uh the applicant first or uh who'sever speaking first, Council. Yep. Uh we'll go with Master Ken first. Master Ken. Yes, sir. The Islamist swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Uh so help God or affirm, whatever you prefer. I do. You do? And just your name and professional address for the record. Um my name is Ken Lee and 160 Wood Road and you're an agent. You're an agent of the dojo. Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. You can sit down, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Pro, you want me to take

Sorry, it's okay. Tell the truth, hold the truth, and not by the truth. So, I hope you got it. Yes, I do. And uh as far as uh your uh your address for the record, please. Work address. Um address is with Dystra Associates, 11 Lawrence Road, Newton, New Jersey. And uh as far as your licenses that you hold, um professional planning license New Jersey and licensed landscape architect and both are up to date and in good uh and I recall you've been accepted as an expert before this board. Yes, that's correct. Uh I'd recommend he be accepted as an expert in the area of professional planning and professional landscaping. So no. So accept. Good.

Thank you very much. Okay. Okay. Um, we're here this evening to discuss a property located at 160 Woodport Road, block 2016, lot 11. It's a halfacre lot in the C1 community commercial zone. Um, it's developed with a 6,263 ft building. Um, there is one residential unit on the second floor um that is accessed through the uh I think the back. Is that right, Jay? Um, and there's parking in the back of the building as well through a garage door for two cars. Um and then on the first floor uh there are three commercial units. Um one of them is a state farm insurance agency. Uh the other is a um it's called Humble Threads. It is a tailor. Uh and then the last one is the one we're here this evening uh to seek approval for which is a taekwond do uh dojo. Um the new tenant um operates only three days a week. Tuesday and Thursday from 4:50 to 8:20 and Saturday from 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Um there are approximately 5 to 10 clients per class. Of those uh classes, um some of them are children. uh if they are in fact children, they're generally dropped off and the parents either leave um sometimes they watch their phones in their car, but generally they leave, they run their errands and they come back because um Master Ken's advised me that uh the parents tend to um uh elicit responses from the kids. So, uh they asked them to leave. Um so, uh Master Ken, if you'll come up to the microphone again. Um can you just raise that to your face? You've heard uh my recantation of what we're here to discuss this evening. Is that correct?

Yes, sir. And do you ac accept that as your testimony this evening? Yes. Okay. Is there anything you'd like to add or anything else? Um I'm willing to change the Saturday class to Sunday. Any problem there? Okay. So if there's any problem and the board has any concerns, he's willing to change it from Saturday to Sunday, but the application right now stands as Saturday. Um so Mr. Dunn,

council, before we go there, just uh can you spell the uh your name, please? Spell. Um my real name is Q Lee but um everyone calls me Master Ken. So that's my Bruce Lee is not real name. His real name is Jim Bun Lee but everyone calls him Bruce Lee. Same thing. So my so everyone calls me Master Kim but my real name is Q like a Ru but KY Yu instead of R. So Q. But most most people they don't know how to pronounce you know proper way. So they call me Caillou or like different way. So that's why I have you know different name. Master K. So K YU. Yes sir. Is your first name? Yes. And last name. That's my legal name. And Lee. Le E. Okay. Same as Bruce Lee. Yes.

Got it. Thank you. Um if the board would like they can ask any questions of Mr. Lee before I bring up my next witness. Just real quick, council, and I apologize. No problem. Give me the hours again. Yeah, absolutely. So, Tuesday and Thursday 4:50 to 8:20 p.m. and then Saturday from 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Okay. Thank you. Okay. All right. Any questions for Mr. Lee before I move on to uh Jason Dunn? Any questions from the D?

Just one. How How large are the classes? Oh, between five and 10 people. And those five to 10 clients of yours said that they would be willing to go on Sundays instead of Saturdays. Um yes, I can change the Saturday and Sunday class in case because now I think Saturday uh humble threat they open and Sunday if I open nobody else besides me. So I can you know I can switch

but they would come on Sundays instead of Saturdays. because I teach um now right now Sunday on Hamburg they see people coming on Sundays so a lot of parents they're working so you know some sometimes father or you know mom switch the job and the job of the kids and they go kind of how many years you've been in business uh

um in Sex County since 2009 and um I've been practicing mart since I was five so now I'm 52 so pretty long time and I taught in army me and there's a lot of good discipline for all the kids. So that's why I love to teach and um you know I love it. So that's why I try to I have a lot of students already in part area area and they they've been asking me why don't you open another location so I thought it's great idea so I starting like November but yes so that's I'm here

and do do you have to hold any licenses by the state? Yes, I'm I have international I have to that that's actually really good question. Now there's so many martial arts schools there. You don't know who who's respon responsible for that. I have to have certified I I train myself not not I'm sorry not myself but we have the the headquarters from Korea and they control. So I have international master certified and also examiner black examiner certified. So time to time I have to you know under the headquarters they control all 250 the countries they control. So I have to go there to test you pretty much like very strict about it.

There any state of New Jersey licensing that is required. They don't but they do the inter I have to have international master to apply black belt certificate. Thank you. You're welcome sir. So your primary location is in Hamburg. Yes. Yes ma'am. So this is like a you know kind of satellite like small classes from you know Hamburg I mean I'm sorry area so students that it's more convenient to come here instead of coming to my location and how many instructors or uh teachers you you teach the class yourself I have some students coming and learning about you know helping out for leadership but basically instructors me myself. Yes.

And on average how many assistants do you think you might have for classes? I normally don't need it but if I need it maybe one more maybe. Yeah. Okay. But sometimes my you know kids taking class too so sometimes they can help. Yeah. But same as like army like we have like we have a group then we normally have the one leader to help out other you know small group and then I pretty much you know help out everyone that way. Yes. When you said the army, is that the United States Army or? No, sir. In Korea, that's fine. Korean ranger.

Any other questions from the Dis? Should we move to professionals? Yes. Okay. Uh, Mr. Dunn, if you'll please go over the plans and the application. Thank you. you hear me? Okay. Yes.

Okay. Um, so I I had uh the responsibility of uh learning the site, the application, meeting with the uh client and finding out what their needs were. So I'm familiar uh with what we're asking for tonight. Um this is a a minor subsite plan or amended site plan from a an approval in 2003. Um whereas it said in that in that approval as one of the conditions if the uses were to change or one of the uses were to change uh the owner would have to come back to the board to present uh that new use. Um this is considered I think a studio um use uh where you have the the teaching and the students and the parking calculation is is different for that use than an office or retail. um that is uh it's one inch I'm sorry uh one space per 100 square feet of gross leasable space uh versus an office or retail which is uh one space per 200 square ft. Um in your planner's uh calculations uh which I agree with uh she says that um there are 17 spaces provided and 23 that are required based on those calculations. Um so we're asking for the kind of the reapproval of the site tonight and um that relief for the parking requirement. Um it's about a halfacre site. The uh parking field is in front of the building between the road and and and the building. Uh it is a site that has uh 97% impervious cover. Uh however, that is an existing uh non-conforming uh condition. Um I also note that there are several of those kind of uh existing non-conforming uh setbacks or impervious um that are uh that were approved in 2003. So I mean I I would I would assume it would carry on forward to today. Um

nonetheless um the main the main issue of this application is parking. We have pre presented to the board um a list of the hours. Uh this was should have been submitted uh with your packets. I know it came like a little later than some of the other things, but it was provided uh at least 10 days ahead of this meeting. Um and this summarizes what was already put on the record about the um the hours of operation and the number of instructors uh the class times. And uh I think that this pretty clearly shows uh why these uh three uses can coexist and not have a parking problem with the existing uh 17 spaces as opposed to the uh required 23 spaces. Um I also do want to point out um that a portion of the building is two stories and on that second story is the residential unit. It's an apartment. I think the owner lives there. Uh it's two bedrooms and that was part of the 2003 approval to combine that from two separate apartments to one unit with two bedrooms. Um there are there's enough room in the in the garage to stack two cars uh in the garage. So that's why in your calculations you may not see that residential um that parking because it kind of negates itself. But uh but we will include that in any um revised plan. Um, I want to show you this exhibit. This is different than what was presented.

So, we're going to label that um as uh A1. Uh, and is there a date on that? Uh, it's today's date, September 3rd, 2025. A1. Okay. And that was not submitted yet to the board.

Uh, that's correct. It's a new exhibit. Um, it it's titled um well, it's titled minor site plan. Um and it shows the existing conditions uh which is basically the survey that was submitted to you. Uh and then on the right it shows a 1 in equals 10 ft scale of the front parking field and a part of the side of the parking. Um what this does is uh this shows the uh dimensions of the existing parking layout. You notice all the other text is taking off and everything. So it's going to help me explain to you uh what the parking field uh how it's laid out today. Um, it also has a zoning analysis chart. Uh, that was not previously submitted. Uh, but it was brought up in the in the planners report that uh that that should be uh that should be submitted. So, as a condition of any approval, we would agree to uh provide these. This also has a signature line for the for the planning board if it should get approved. Um, so what what I wanted to first point out was about the parking field. Um the parking stalls currently are not head in toward the building. Uh they are head in toward each other. Uh and this is important because uh you don't want to have the risk of of a an errant car hitting the building. So that's why the owner prefers the parking this way, which I think works uh really well. Um it has two two ADA compliant spaces with the the correct uh aisle width. The parking spaces are 9 ft uh by 16.6 feet in the in the topmost row here. Uh 9 8.9 ft x 18.6 feet. And then uh along the southern property line, we have parking spaces that are 9 ft by 18.6. And then the parallel parking spaces are uh 20.3 feet by 9 ft and 19.7 feet by 9 ft. Um

so long story short uh they are uh they do fall short of the required uh 9 by20 spaces. Uh so the applicant is asking for continued relief on that existing condition as well. um the parking aisles uh on the northernmost between um between the end of the parking stall and the northern property line. There's actually a line stripe there uh which is just inside of the property line, but to that line stripe is uh 28.2 ft. So that is plenty uh uh more than the 24 that's required. the space between the front curb and and the parking fe parking uh spaces that distance is 19.6. Uh so that would allow two cars to pass by each other in the in the infrequent uh time that that would happen. Um and then we have a 17.3 foot uh access aisle between two parking spaces in the southern area and then 18.2 ft between the building and uh the two parallel parking spaces. Um the parking the parking works the way it is. Uh you know we have uh the owner has been here for many years. Has never been an issue with uh cars on the road or uh cars parking um not having enough room to park. Um so we would we would request that that it stays uh the way it is today. Um there are there are two access uh points into the property uh from Woodport Road and we do want to keep both of them open the way it is. Um if there's no other questions about the layout or the uh the parking, I can move on to the next point of the site plan, which is uh the signs. I do have a question about the parking

when the super 7ele11 is completed. I mean currently the that that when that super 7-Eleven is completed, will there be a barrier between the 7-Eleven and and this building's the lot line there or will cars after they fill up go through this parking lot out on to Woodport Road? I I haven't um looked at the 7-Eleven site plan. Um but I do I'm pretty sure that while it's under construction at least they have these orange like jersey orange and white jersey barriers.

So right now it is it is blocked off. Um we have not proposed any any blockades but I don't know if they are or not. That's something we may consider. I mean if we think it's it's important. I should mention it's also there's no barriers between the northern property and our and uh the property in question and I think that's important to keep at least that one open because they have access to the rear of their building along the property. That's smart attire to the spartire is actually one one building away. Okay. Oh, that's right. That's the new building. Right. Right. Right. Um Okay. Okay.

Just thought I'd point it out. Leave it up to the board. Thank you. Since we're on parking, excuse me, since we're on parking, I did have some questions to that as well. Um, there's going to be overlap. I mean, you're saying the times are 4:50 to 8:20. Other businesses may be open till 5, 5:36. I don't know. Um, and you have kids, parents coming in, they drop kids off early for these classes. So, you're talking maybe 4:30. And there just aren't enough spots. So, they're going to be circling with nowhere to park. And how what do you say to that?

Um, I would I would say that that condition is is not likely to happen at all. Um, because of the number of employees that are currently in State Farm is only three and the number of employees at the Taylor um I was told by the owner is usually just one um and sometimes two rarely. So you only have four parking spaces taked up taken up by the owners um or employees, sorry. Um and that leaves uh uh four 13 additional spaces for um five to 10 students coming in and out. Uh so I I think that there there won't be a conflict,

but keep in mind that if there's a variance, it will run with the building and um other businesses will be coming in in the future. So we have to just you know look at the standards as they are because it is a potential that someone else can come in and require that and uh run into that problem later. Uh that's correct. someone someone else uh with uh perhaps a different schedule or more employees uh could come in. Uh but perhaps we could make it a condition of the resolution just like the 2003 that uh the owner would have to come into the board and explain why and how the parking would work uh with with 17 spaces or similar to why we're here this evening. Yeah.

Um for this exact same reason, but we're coming here with with something that works. Uh fewer students, fewer cars. Um, I you know, and I think I think it makes sense if there was something that had a higher frequency uh that that you might give more thought to the parking, but under the current circumstances, it's likely we're never going to exceed the parking uh that's provided by the site. Council, is the owner here? You said the owner. Uh, yes, Master Ken. But, um, so can we have him testify that he'd be okay with that? He's very hard of hearing and doesn't understand the English language that well. That's why Master Ken's here this evening. Can Mr. uh Ken translate for him? Yes. Yes.

He's got a scream to him, just so you know. That's okay. That's fine. That's fine. Thank you. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God or affirm. Tell the truth.

Yes. Yes. Thank you. Uh and as far as can you explain to him that as the existing condition a new tenant comes in uh he was kind enough in the past or his predecessor to put that as a condition. Would he be okay as the owner if a new tenant comes in that same condition continues by way of he would have to come back before the board as we're doing right now. So if I stay here, right? If a if a new tenant comes in, that's fine.

Yes.

Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. I think to the to the point on parking, you know, years ago across the street there from this location, there was a uh a martial arts studio, but of course there also was a deli and a paint store and a health food store and which had high volume uh of people and there was parking wars there. So that's really why we're concerned about this. I I agree with you with the current businesses that are there. I don't I don't see the uh the conflict, but certainly one that had higher uh foot traffic could then, you know, cause cause issue. Yeah.

Right. And I I did discuss this with my clients prior to tonight's meeting, and if we had to go there, we were going to go there. So, we get it. Thank you, council. Understood. Okay. So, as I uh was probably mentioned before, there there's no uh site improvements or improvements inside or outside the building with the exception of uh proposed signage uh upgrades that uh need some relief as far as the sign area. Uh there was an documents of the proposed signs that was submitted to the board. Um I'd like to put them on the display.

Yeah. These are the same uh documents that were submitted even though submitted. If you wouldn't mind just mark the one on A2. Thank you councel. And the other A3. Thank you. And if you could uh put today's date on it after A2 and A3 and your initials please. And if you can make sure A1 has the same today's date and your initials. Thank you.

I'll do it.

So, a A2 is a uh document an illust illustrative document prepared by EM signs. Um it's uh it shows the non-illuminated post and panel sign or what I call the freestanding sign uh replacement that's going to be that is is there today and this would replace uh the existing sign. Um this A3 is also an illustrated uh document that shows um proposed non-illuminated dimensional building letter lettering. Um which I'll start with A3 U because it it shows what what signs are going to be going on the building. Um the first is the existing State Farm sign with a State Farm logo. Uh that was I assume already approved. That is existing has been there uh for a long time. The vacant space which is between the two uh to two occupied spaces is a taekwondo and very simply was just going to say that in red lettering uh 12 in high and uh 11 I'm sorry 9.8 ft long. The existing tailor sign would just be uh cleaned. That's going to stay as it is. And then there's another proposed sign um at this Mansard of the of the the right side of the building uh that identifies the building as 160 Woodport Road. Uh that will replace an existing uh much smaller sign toward the just above the board just above the door that says 160 Woodport Road. Um the relief we would be asking for is for the sign uh length. Um the the ordinance for signs in the C1 zone uh says that uh you you can only have a sign uh 12 foot long or uh 50% of the wall length.

Um so and you are allowed to have multiple signs on on a building. Um but the wall length is the question that's that's a little bit of a gray area. So I'm going to I think take the conservative approach. um the architectural plans uh that were submitted uh by um Elizabeth Reeves.

Uh they they show the um they show these columns and I I measured I scaled their drawing and it's uh uh 20 feet each column. So 50% of that would be 10 feet. So the maximum length of the sign uh would is is 10 feet required and we're proposing uh 9.8T 8 ft for Taekwondo which which works and uh we have just under 9 ft for the Woodport road. Um so actually those those are those are conforming. Um the total the the total uh area of all the signs on the building is 35.5 and if we take the facade of the the the facade area of the building and 5% of that would be 64.4. So we have a total of 35.5 square ft which is less than 64.4. Um, so I unless I miss something, I I think it's conforming. Um, unless we we add everything together, it may be more than 50%. Uh, but my testimony is this. Um, in the C1 zone, we have a a 25 foot front yard setback. And I think that when when the master plan was probably written about this zone, uh, it pictured the buildings much closer to to Woodport Road. Um this is about uh over 60 feet away from the road and I think this the size of the signs is appropriate to scale and uh identification um for this building. Uh for the restanding sign um that is 28.12 square ft and I think it's allowed to be uh 12 square feet. Um, but that's

an existing sign that was previously approved and the the owner is uh just changing the the layout of the sign uh not not so much the sa the shape and the size. I will also note that the sign is uh just 8 feet um so or just about quarter inch less than 8t according to the dimensions of the proposal uh which is uh just under your your allowed height for that sign. um your area below the sign, the open area uh for for a site view, is that that's going to stay the same? Yes. Yeah, that's that's not getting any uh lower or higher.

So, that's that pretty much explains the site plan. Um uh if you want me to provide some proofs or if you want to go over your professionals letters first to you, Madam Chair. I think we will move it to professionals first. Mr. Simmons, if you wouldn't mind.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh just referring to the report our office prepared dated July 31st, 2025. Uh the first page basically is the applicants described. We've got the State Farm insurance, the proposed Taekwond do unit, the Taylor, and a second floor apartment that was described tonight as a two-bedroom apartment. Uh with regards to uh the zoning, uh there's no site or building changes proposed other than the signage and uh some miscellaneous items that were discussed tonight. Uh, parking was described and I think it's probably obvious, but the applicants should confirm as I note in item number four that there's no loading dock required for the typew. Correct.

Correct.

Okay. And they did bring up the substandard aisle width and parking space sizes that they annunciated earlier as far as not meeting precisely the 9 by20 requirements or in some places the 24 foot wide aisle width for two-way traffic. With regards to storm water, uh again, there's no change in the site, so there's no increase in impervious, so that's not an issue as far as adding. Uh they're not proposing any change in the exterior lighting. Uh the existing building is serviced by water from the township water system. It's my understanding that there was a common water service line for that building plus a couple additional buildings in that general strip. And I just want to have the applicant update the board on the status if that's been rectified to everyone's satisfaction including specifically the township water department.

Okay. We'll have to look into that the water line. Okay. And with regards to the septic system, again, I would just recommend any approval the board might consider be subject to the health department u issuing a letter indicating that the existing septic system is satisfactory for all the proposed uses on the site. No objection.

With regards to landscaping, there's no change proposed. With regards to the architectural plans, I didn't have any at the initial point, but I don't believe there's any change other than the signage on the existing building, which they described here tonight. There's no environmental impact statement involved. And the items that I uh list under item number 12 for miscellaneous, county health department, the fire prevention bureau, the construction official for any modifications to the building interior, and the water department with regards to the water service line to make sure that's properly rectified to the township water department's satisfaction. And that's my report, Madam Chair. And I think the only one of those that we received correspondence from was Sparta Township Police Department. Uh we received that today. Um and uh it it specifically referenced the parking and that was the concern. And in addition to the parking, it it it referenced the um residential units uh that we've discussed here this evening and that there is parking for them in the back in the garage.

I'm sorry, one one other item just to make sure it's on the record and is clear. Uh, with regards to square footage, is there any basement in this building? Uh, I'm I'm not aware of any basement. The architecturals that were submitted only only showed the layout with the apartment and the uh the studios and the studio and the But there's no occupancy if there if there is basement. No, absolutely not. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that through the translator. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. So noted. Sorry. No, no, it's a good one.

Um I just have a couple more questions regarding kind of operational items. Um specifically regarding deliveries and refuge collection and um how many like anticipated deliveries? Um beyond do you expect anything beyond your basic kind of like Amazon, UPS, FedEx? Um I saw the the mailbox outside and also the owner will collect pretty much but I have since I have I have another location most of them will deliver to the other side. I can manage that. Got

you know. So another thing is that I now I understand about the parking concern most of other karate schools they go by like couple of classes a day. So they have a parking problem. So which means like um one class is like 15 to 20 people coming but we have actually I'm sorry this scheduling is very important. So what I'm doing is every every single day I count the students how many people coming each uh belt I I sort by the the different belt level so trying to make it even out so I can teach you better. So that's why it's not not going to help you know happen like I try not to in case like one class is getting bigger I'm going to split so like make a smaller group and normally what happen is um depends on like a back to school like September or January class like beginner classes bigger because a lot of people join and then getting smaller. So I change it to buy you know different sizes. So based on as long as I follow the scheduling, it not going to happen those kind of parking problem. As I say like there's more parking problem. I wish you know I have a lot of students but it not going to happen that way but I'm going to make um you know I pretty much like separate them so you're not going to too much crowded and also big events if I have I have another location I'm going to do those kind of events like Halloween party or something like that. So uh yeah so so Master Ken just to confirm there's not going to be more than 10 students per class.

I try to even even now I have Sunday class the first um no white yellow class age group is very young so I try to even the three kids coming I just let them just so I can help them more and the other classes are like five to between 10. So I try to make it smaller as possible. Yes. But just to confirm the the maximum number is 10 per class. I try to make it to smaller as possible. Yes. You know, less than 10. Thank you. You're welcome. Um, so is there a dumpster on site or how is Yes.

Yes, there is. Um, uh, if you look at the existing conditions map, you come in from Woodport Road on the southern part of the property and go straight back. There's a garbage enclosure enclosure along I guess the south property line um by the by the corner of the property. Okay. And the tenant will utilize that obviously. Excuse me. The tenant will utilize the dumpster. Yes. Uh for for the limited uh refues that they produce.

Yes. Um, and then finally, we didn't really go over the interior modifications and the amount of demolition that will occur and then kind of what the modifications will be within the site. So, if you could just walk through what is being done within the interior. There there's no changes to the interior. All right. Nope. That's why our architect is not here this evening. Okay. Perfect. Yeah, makes sense. The plan otherwise he would have been here conditions plan that the architect measured and produced um so the board could see how the spaces were used. Um the the taekwondo space has its own restroom that's ADA accessible that's already been that's already been built. So perfect. That's it. Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Let's bring it up to the D.

Any questions?

I'm just curious about something if I may. Um this is Chris. Um Do the parents tend to stay there or do they drop off and come back and pick up? I'm just would like clarification on that. So normally first day I let them watch because in case the kids like a young age like sometimes they cry so I don't want them to but after first class I recommend them to not to watch because that way the kids they can focus better actually they can build a lot of confidence without parents I mean that they get a lot of lot of positive things without parents. Yeah, sometimes even like the the other location one time I did open class and then I made a huge mistake a lot of parents coaching them. So it was like not one parents lot of parents there. So I have to deal with the parents and also the student and some young kids they have to run to the parents and hog and they come back. I can't even teach because um I really want them to learn about discipline. So to me I don't want the parents the first class at least they know what's going on how they learn about so I explain and then they see and then after that I don't want them to watch but I take pictures what they doing and they post on Facebook or SNS. So, Master Ken, it's your testimony this evening that that the parents generally will stay to watch just the first class and then subsequent that

you would suggest that the parents not stay there where they go if they're not in the class. You do not know, but you don't want them there. No. Okay. Not inside. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're welcome.

Yeah. Appreciate it. The other question I have is for Mr. Dunn. Uh, I was a little unclear on how you described the uh large uh sign and I guess on the entryway I'm talking about this one right here. Are you you said you're moving the lettering to be above the door uh where you go inside or did I misunderstand? Um the there's an existing uh uh building identification address that says 160 Woodport uh just above this doorway. That's going to be removed and then replaced with this larger lettering that says 160 Woodport Road. Uh the lettering as it is now is is very small. It's hard to read. So, for building identification purposes,

so you removed there's we can't really see it on our our picture, but there is I can see where there could be a a sign there identifying the the location. Um, so okay. So, but the what we're seeing here with the proposed signage, right, is is where it will be. Yes, that's correct. Only on the building. And then the sign out front. Yes. Somewhere I read three signs. Oh, there's three uh signs identifying the tenants, but then there's the address sign address on the building and out front. Okay. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Appreciate it. Sure.

Any other questions from the D? I have some questions. No questions. Um, well, I was going to, but by all means,

with regard to the freestanding sign, I just want to I know we haven't always followed this, but I do want to call it to the board's attention because I think it's something that they have to consider if they're going to wave it. Um, the ordinance says that the use of freestanding sign near the roadway should not be used to list individual tenants located within the building or complex, but instead should serve as a site identification sign. And that is in 18-5.3 M two.

Is that in general uh general sign design standards? Mr. Done, the existing sign though does have the tenants on it. Is that correct? Uh yes. Right. but it's going to be replaced, taken down, and anytime a sign is replaced or moved, it has to follow the current code. So, I'm just calling it to everybody's attention, right? Um, if I I think that that may um uh that may apply here. Uh, the only the only reason I would question it is I know that there's a specific sign uh criteria for the C1 zone. Um, and I don't know if which one applies. They both do. You have the regular design standards and then there are additional standards depending on the zone. Yeah.

For each zone, right? Okay. So, um yes, we would would ask for relief on that. Okay. I think it's important to identify uh each tenant from from Woodport Road. Um and I don't think it's too busy. There's if you wouldn't mind expanding on on the code. Um yeah, let me just find it again. Um 1853 M2. Say that again. M2. While you're looking for that, is the existing sign is being totally replaced? Is the existing sign a new sign's coming up? Same location though? Yes, it's going to be uh redone.

Okay. But same dimension as the old sign. Yes, that's correct. Got it. Thank you.

In the interim, I actually had a a Well, I was done, but I was just waiting. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, but I just figured while that was happening, because my question is about the parking and not about the sign. Um, I was just going to ask you if you wouldn't mind taking a moment to expand on the parking behind the building for the residents uh above so that we can understand how that works.

Um, so on this exhibit, we're looking at the exhibit A1 and the existing conditions map. Woodport Road is on the right side of the map here. Uh when Dan is saying about the the rear parking, it actually refers to the parking that's in the garage in the rear of the building. Um the twotory portion is actually uh about uh I think it's like 1,600 square feet and it's this narrow piece here depicted by the dotted lines. Uh, so the garage is is actually at the very rear of the building, but to to get to it, you have to turn uh from the side of the of the property into the side of the building. Does that make sense? And it is it's two cars uh one then another

and that's inside the garage. Yes. Yep. Thank you. It's attached to the building or it's a separate building? It's in the building. Attached. Yep. Um so that section of the ordinance is in conjunction with the regulations for the zone. In addition, the um section there says if and when any sign is altered, moved or replaced, but not including minor or non-structural maintenance andor repairs, the change sign shall conform to all requirements of this chapter. So are you taking down the entire sign?

No. No, I think they're just refacing it. They're keeping the same posts and repainting it. My understand well you're requesting a waiver or a ver if that isn't the case. If that is the case, we're requesting sign post removed and discarded. A brand new sign post and caps would be furnished. It's the same. Well, they just said on the record that they would request that variance relief as well. So, I think that's been solved. Okay.

Okay. Um, next thing I just like clarification on, this is not for you really, but it is a an issue. Um, because we come, we've had this many times at this board and we've denied uh other fitness centers. Um, and fit this meets the definition of a fitness center. No ifs, ands, or buts really. Um, and we have said that if uh fit if it's not listed as a permitted use, it is therefore prohibited. This one is coming in as a sports center uh which is indoor commercial recreation that has a minimum of 50 spaces but yet the fitness center is being used as the parking standard. So there seems to be some disconnect there and I just want legally some kind of an opinion as to what we're doing here since we have run into this before with different outcomes and I don't want to get caught. So, if the planner could could address if he could the I believe in the planner's testimony, you made reference to uh uh instructional students. Um if you can just give a little more planning testimony as to the use. I think you said studio use with a teacher when you're talking about the parking

be the definition of fitness studio. But yes, it's an instructional studio. Um, and it goes under your ordinance permitted uses of sports center. That's uh I agreed with what your planner had said about that. So trouble finding different uses though and then you have different parking standards. That's what's confusing in here. Um, I think we did another application uh of Pine Cone Plaza uh where that was a fitness center and I think I I know we were talking about with that 50 minimum parking. I think we asked for relief on that as well.

Um, this is a I believe a similar use although probably less intense than the women's gym that's there at Pine Gold Plaza. Um, so uh you you may be correct. We may need relief from that as well. the um 50 minimum guess sports center.

So I think there's two things at play. Um the first is the use sport. We've characterized it myself and I believe also the I know Dory's offices as well have characterized this as a sports center. So for terms of use requirement and variances, that's why it's at the planning board and not the zoning board for it's not requiring a use variance this evening. Um, David, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but when it comes to parking calculations, I know many times you interpret the parking calculation as what it's most like. And in terms of this, I believe indoor commercial recreation center is meant for a much more intensive use. And that's most likely why I know I went with fitness studio versus I agree with that. It is a fitness studio because a fitness studio means an indoor fitness business with services limited solely to offering instructor or coach coachled fitness or recreation classes which may include activities such as karate, martial arts, wrestling, yoga, zumba, private skill and sports lessons and similar does not include tournaments, competitions, demonstrations with spectators like an indoor commercial sports center would. So, it does meet the definition of a fitness studio, but a fitness studio is not listed as a permitted use in that area,

but I I myself has we've determined that it's a sports center. So, that's why it's been brought to the planning board and that's why it doesn't and well, I would say from a planning perspective, this is a sport and I would say this is where I would assume taekwondo is a sport. It's an Olympic sport, right? Um, karate though, sure, but sports centers are permitted. Karate is listed under fitness. I don't want to argue it. I'm bringing it up. Um, well, we have had some other issues with this and quite honestly, Dory's department brought up fitness studios and is not a permitted use. So, I don't want to get us into trouble down the road. I think we just need to address it and do

Well, I think it's sports center and a sports center is permitted. We don't have a definition for sports center. the Mosquitz book which you'll most likely will refer back to from a planning perspective as definition does not have a definition for a sports center. Um so I go based on visiting the site what's within the site the character of that zone um and then going back to the actual use which is taekwond do which in my professional opinion is a sport. and council. Uh just for the record, your application is for a a sports uh center, not for a fitness.

It's for a sports center, but with a fitness studio calculation for parking because of the limited size of the classes for the sports center. Okay. But the use uh we're looking at and following the planner and obviously the uh Sparta building department has placed you here as a use as a sport. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions?

Just one more legal question. If we granted a variance for this, is is it possible to tie a variance to the lease so that if the taekwond do moves out, the variance goes? If you remember, Joan, the owner came up and put on the record that he would uh and the council affirmed that the same condition that is in place now as the new tenant if it affects parking would come back before the board. Is that correct, council? That is correct. Absolutely. But would the variance go away for somebody else coming in?

Uh I'm not so sure it's a uh that the in my opinion the variance would not run with the property. uh the variance runs with the applicant and therefore uh I'm satisfied that if the variance by way of this occupancy and tenency um is triggered and the landlord has agreed to a new tenant review. It's not uncommon in other municipalities to have uh tenants come before the planning board for their review. The distinction would be in some other municipalities, it's kind of like your minor site plan review. Uh there's no notice per se as long as there's no new variance. Uh David, anything on that or

I agree with what you just Thank you. Okay. So, the variance will go with the lease.

It runs with the property which runs with the lease. And if the tenant changes, then the the lease would become void. if it's a change in occupancy if it went from a taekwond do uh and I apologize to some other type of uh fit uh uh defense sport uh and it's the same hours and same conditions in my opinion that uh they would come before the board say that and then uh the board would grant the amended uh approval based upon what we're looking at today and I hope I didn't confuse everybody by what Just saying if it changes to a deli then right right that's a better example better example.

Yes. And Mr. Pora wouldn't have to come back for a change of tenant would come back for a site plan or site plan anyways. Yeah that's what we're agreeing to the Yes. Thank you. So I think that's also in your regular ordinances. It was recently passed. Is that correct? Any change in tenant has to come to the planning board anywhere? Well, at least in the ED zone for sure. Uh yeah. Uh but uh thank you. Vice chair. Did you have a question?

Well, so I just want to read I think we're we're saying the same thing, but the applicant shall return to the board for minor subdivision approval upon any change in tenency or use of the building. Uh at said minor site plan approval, the board shall review the applicant and the applicant shall demonstrate to the board's satisfaction that adequate parking exists on the property for the proposed change in use uh or teny from 2003. We're structuring it similarly. Yeah. Right. Okay. Thanks. No questions from the Dis.

All right. Do you have before you an application uh PB 25-731 TQP? Sorry. We have a public ah good point. I knew we missed something. Ah, that was public. Good one. First day back. Jenny opening up to the public.

Jenny Derrick's tapping into Sparta. I just have a couple quick things. Uh the first one is is it is where is my question? Sorry. Um the current sign over the arched area of the building of the facade. Currently it has yes it does have a small indicator of the address but larger with a design it says humble threats. And so is it is the tailor not going to be asking to have their identifier replicated somewhere

as far as proposed sign u document here. It doesn't show that humble thread sign. Right. But this I don't think this this is what they're proposing. It's not the current existing. Yeah. It's just going to be identified as the Taylor. It's just going to say Taylor. Humble Threads doesn't want to have their identification anymore. Okay. Oh, that's okay. Okay. Thank you.

Hi, I live on Hunter Lane directly across the street from the 7-Eleven. So, I can see the progress. What's your name for the record? Oh, I'm sorry. Florence Slack at 25 Hunter Lane. So, I can see the progress every day that's being done. My concern, and maybe you mention it because I'm trying to absorb everything, but Hunter's Lane entrance will be closed off. It'll be simply Woodpour and Pine Cone Lane for vehicles to come in and out and Hunter Lane will be closed up. You're talking about the 7-Eleven.

Yes. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. And I'm saying that because so many times when I back my car out of my driveway, I have to look three ways, left, right, and directly behind me. Cuz I could put my car in reverse and just pull right into the 7-Eleven. People don't stop. They don't slow down. And so far, there's been no accidents. But I just feel like every day I'm taking a chance when I'm trying to get out of my driveway. And so I just want to make sure that that that part will be closed off so I don't have to deal with it anymore. That that whole that whole site plan was heard by the zoning board, not by this board. Oh, okay. Correct, Mr.

Yeah, I was going to say if I may, uh just talking about the 7-Eleven when it's completely done, uh there is no access coming off of Hunter Lane. Good for that application. It's going to be on Pine Cone Lane and off of uh Woodport Road.

Okay, perfect. And also like the signage, whatever signage goes up that may be lit up, um just to make sure it's not like really bright. Um you know, the way the sign is right now with the 7-Eleven up by the corner of Pine Con, that's fine. You know, it doesn't bother me, but I just don't want something really bright because I have to look out my window. You know what I mean? It's uh you know, a lot of the lights come in through my window. I can see the pole lights across the street where the nursery center is. So, I just don't want one more thing that's going to, you know, shine in my face when I, you know, when I'm sitting in my living room. And also, the store is that going to be facing the 7-Eleven store. Is that going to be facing Woodport Road when it's finished? the new convenience store for the 7-Eleven. Uh the front of the store is going to be facing Woodport Road and the gasoline uh service uh dispensing station portion of the project is closer to Woodport Road as well.

Okay, good. Great. Thank you. Jamie, can you answer that question? Is I mean that that whole area is part is paved pretty much from Sparta Tire all the way to the subject site. I is is the pavement from the 7-Eleven going to be attached to this site? I mean, are people going to be able I I would have to double check it, but to the best of my recollection here tonight, there's going to be a landscape buffer between called the northerly side of the new 7-Eleven by the gas station and the applicant's property. So, you will not drive across there. I'd hope so. Right.

That's kind of my experience, too. 7-Eleven wouldn't want the adjacent properties going through.

No, there's going to be a lot of Well, there's going to be traffic circulating for the gas pumps and that type of thing. Hi, Mike Divine Oak Parkway. Uh, my inclination always is to be very welcoming to uses that I think are desirable. I think this fits that category perfectly. So, I'm hoping that this will come to be. It's I think it's very desirable. One question which may not apply. I'm assuming you're going to have mats and physical activity, maybe noise in your location in Hamburg. Has that ever been an issue with any adjacent properties? You follow my question?

Yeah. I mean, you throwing people around and and yelling. I mean, I don't I'm picturing yelling. I mean, B school, so we probably yell, but you're not going to have hours that overlap with adjacent properties. I don't think in in other words, you have you have common walls with two other businesses, right? So any any activity inside your location would not interfere with what? Oh yes. That's why I changed my time to study at 450. Okay. Good luck. I hope you work out.

Uh just for the record, uh that was Mike Divine, correct Mike? Good. Thank you. Any other members of the public? All right, closing. Mr. Boro.

Yes. Uh, we have application 25-731 before us. TQP Services, Inc., 160 Woodport Road, block 20116, lot 11, C1 zone for amend amended site plan. Uh, represented by councel. There were three witnesses in support of the application. Uh the planner, the tenant, and the property owner. And uh there was testimony as to the hours of operation. There was also uh discussion of the uh uh parking uh requirements and also the uh stall sides. We have uh waiverss or variances as far as the stall size, as far as the number of parking spaces. And again, there was quite a bit of testimony on the uh the use that creates that parking variance and we talked about the sign uh variances also and the possible um application of 18 col 5.3 M2. Uh so before you again in some you have an application for waiver or variance on parking stall sides on the number parking spaces requirement uh and on signage and you've placed as a condition uh if you were to approve that any tenant change is subject to an amended site plan before this board. Let me just check my notes. I think that was also that uh you would require

has something to add. Uh you would require with the reasonable uh conditions of the board uh planner and the board engineer. Uh David, anything else? Uh just two items. I believe there was a waiver of variance required for some areas of aisle width in addition to parking stall size. And a suggestion I'd have if the applicant will agree, uh they indicated that the upstairs residential tenant was parking in the garage, uh I would suggest that they make you make that a condition so that it frees up the maximum number of parking spaces in the parking field. No objection. So council go ahead. And the location of the sign, the freestanding sign in the same location.

Uhhuh. the freestanding sign having multi multi-tenants instead of just the street address. Yes. Okay. Uh council, is that okay? Yes. Okay. And anything that I read uh contrary to your notes? No. Uh just the waterline, I have to get that information for Mr. Simmons. And I also uh need to contact the Sussex County Health Department, make sure that that's applicable, but that's part of his per uh his report. So

great. So one quick question to Mr. Simmons. Uh, and and Miss Knight, before uh before we push this to a vote, given the the current testimony and given the the explanations uh with regard to your reports and your initial concerns, do you see anything at this stage that um gives you pause with with uh with regard to the parking situation? Based on the information provided by the applicants planner, Mr. done with the times involved and the limited days and the limited number of students involved for this particular u operation. I find it satisfactory. Might do you concur?

Yes. And I would like to just add the information they gave us regarding the other businesses and the number of employees I think further um shows that potentially some of the parking spaces that are required for the other spaces, the other locations or tenants are not necessarily being utilized by them. So there's additional spaces for those as well. Thank you. It's ready for a vote. Yes, we are ready for a vote. If someone would move it and second, I'll make a motion. I'll second Bogler. Yes. Janette Burke. Yes. Joan Ferman. Yes. Ernie Ragstad. Yes. Councilman Mark Scott. Yes. I welcome Mr. Lee. Brian Zimmerman. Yes.

Christine Dunar. Yes. Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. Chairwoman Celeste Luciano. Yes. Welcome. All right. All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Have a good evening. Me, too.

Okay. Uh, okay. So, five minute recess before we start on our next hearing. I'm thirsty.

Everyone is settled. Good evening. Frank McGovern of McGovern and Roseman. Um, you probably did not expect me to appear tonight. Um, either Megan Ward or Kevin Kelly were supposed to be here, but neither of them could make it. So, they asked me to step in. So, please be gentle with me. Trying to be a fast learner, but not not that fast. Um, I did have an opportunity to review the application and to speak with the applicant. Um, and if I could if I could just give a little summary. Um, yeah. So, if Mr. Yeah. First, would you mind the microphone, please?

The handheld if you're if you're going to Mr. Por, if you wouldn't mind giving us credentials. Uh, yes. So, uh, Frank, you're, uh, you're the attorney, licensed attorney in the state of New Jersey. That's correct. And your license is in good standing. That's right. I hope so. Is it Can you hear me through this? Yes. Yeah. I think we're good. Yeah. Just a little closer to your mouth. Okay. Perfect.

All right. So, um, in general, um, the applicant, uh, here today is the, um, is Papa for Rentals, uh, which is owned by Mary Jane Negri, Dr. Negri, who's with me here. Um, the property in question is on Route 15. I'm sure you're all very familiar with it. It was the old Paperron's uh, property. Uh, there's, uh, several buildings on that property. And what this application is is actually in I guess in concept it's extremely simple at least from our point of view. Uh we're it's a tenant changeover. Uh the one is the pepperonis the old pepperonis restaurant um which went through several restaurant phases. Um there's now a new business coming in called Sparta Mediterranean Cuisine. And then the other location uh which is right next to it also along Route 15 uh was formerly a computer service shop and before that a Verizon store. And now um we propose to have a new tenant in there. He's actually in there. He'd actually already gotten a zoning permit. Um and that is the Sparta smoke shop. Um from our point of view uh the this is really just a change over from a uh a permitted tenant who what was permitted under the prior ordinances of what was the ED zone through variances and now permitted in the PCED zone um to a to another replacement tenant. Um the parking spots remain the same. There's no changes in parking and the signage uh in terms of dimensions and type and rules applying to the signage. Those all remain the same as well. The only thing changing with the signage would be really just the names. Uh the one would be the Sparta Mediterranean Cuisine and

of course the other would be the Sparta Smoke Shop. Uh there's a facade sign on the side of the um Sparta Smoke Shop. Again, same dimensions, just a change over in the sign. And then there's a facade sign on the restaurant as well. And again, just a change over on the sign as well. And then there's also a freestanding sign which um has the will be changed over from the prior restaurant to the new one. And then also some LED signage as well. Um, with that, um, I do I do have some questions for Dr. Negri. Um, if you want to swear her in.

Yes. Way to tell the should. Thank you. Name and professional address for the record, please. My name is Is it on? Yeah. My name is Mary Jean Negri and uh I am actually a chiropractor in Lafayette, New Jersey and I own the property known as 514 Lafayette Road. My husband used to own Paparonis. Uh we bought the property in 1992. He passed away suddenly in 2013 and that's why I am involved here.

Okay. Dr. Neggery. And uh how long um have I guess between you and your companies, how long have you and your husband and now you own the properties? Since 1992. Okay. And and um from very early on uh you started to have an a restaurant operated on the property. Correct. My husband did. Yes. I was not involved. Okay. And that was Paperonis. Paparonis. Yep. And for how many years did that operate? Uh until 2013 uh when he passed away. Okay. And then afterwards, uh, another restaurant came in. It did. Yes. And that was Anastasia. That was Anastasia's restaurant. And it that lasted about one year. Okay. And that was operated by your daughter.

My daughter. My daughter uh worked in the restaurant business with my husband for many years. All right. And after that, another restaurant came in. Correct. That was Casa Capri. Casa Capri. Then how long was that there? I believe three years. Okay. And then uh finally there was a Mexican restaurant teierra Tulum. Takaria Tulum. Correct. And then how long was that there? That was there I believe two years. Okay. And then uh so when did that uh stop operating? Last October is when he moved out. All right. So the place has been uh not being used as a restaurant or for anything since then. Correct.

All right. And um now you have a new tenant that you would like to operate in that space. Yes. It's a Mediterranean restaurant with a great menu and some healthier choices. Okay. And um have you already signed a lease with that uh with that company? I have. Yes. All right. And uh when were were you expecting uh the company to have already started operation there? Oh, yes. Many months ago. But and if if an approval is given today uh by the board, um are they prepared and ready to to go forward? Absolutely. They've already had their uh Sussex County Health Department inspection, uh their fire inspections, everything is ready to go.

And then adjoining the building is another uh another area that's used by the smoke shop. That is correct. All right. And just give a brief history that was used previously by Verizon, a computer store. Uh yes, Verizon initially. Okay. And then it was a computer repair store. All right. and he retired and went out and uh now hopefully we can get things moving with the smoke shop. Okay. And the smoke shop is uh in business now. It is, but it's not doing well because it is not allowed to put up a sign yet, which is one of the things you're asking for today. That is correct. Right. And um you've reviewed this matter uh with the owner of the smoke shop, correct? Yes, I have.

And um you're familiar with the operation? I am. And u how many employees do they need to operate based on what you observed? And one employee. They basically have one employee. Okay. And then in terms of traffic, how much how many how much business? They're they're expecting to store one to three an hour and they're usually in and out in a quick period of time. Okay. And then flipping back to the restaurant, uh in terms of the uh the eating and service area of the restaurant, u has that is that going to change at all?

Nothing has changed. No construction, nothing has changed, just updated painting and refreshing. Okay. And then um so for uh the board's use, um Mr. Kevin Kelly and Megan Ward had submitted a um an application package um so I'm relying very heavily on that um and would like to I guess generally submit that into evidence um and uh just kind of maybe give you an overview of what's in it

please if that's okay. Um so obviously there's the application itself is there uh it seek the applicant seeks to bring in these two tenants uh for these uses which our position is that it's consistent what what is permitted in fact they are permitted in the zone um and um without really any without any uh changes other than the signage uh itself uh based on the presentation that was made to you earlier tonight. And uh I was educated a little on that one provision of the sign ordinance that um that uh that that any new s any new signage that comes in uh triggers a requirement of compliance with all of the current requirements of the uh sign requirements of the zone. Um, I just want to make sure if required that there be a waiver so that uh the signs partic that are required for that are needed and requested for the restaurant identify the restaurant itself and that the signage for the smoke shop identify the smoke shop itself.

So not um so in the application uh you'll see an overview and then a series of exhibits. Uh the main point of this is to emphasize that um that calculations were made over the years. Many many applications had have been made usually uh when there have been changes in tenants um to get approvals uh to uh get uh permission to be able to have signage and to indicate the the number of parking. I guess um the calculations with regard to the restaurant uh that have been made uh indicate that with the 800 square ft of space and the number of seats in the uh restaurant um using the formula that's in the ordinance uh that there be either 16 or 18 required spaces which are dedicated to the restaurant use. And um so are there 18 spaces dedicated to the restaurant use?

Yes, there is. Okay. And that's been the case since pepperoni since 1992. Nothing's been changed. Okay. And then u with regard to the smoke shop area um again a calculation was made uh based on the square footage of 1500 square feet uh that there would be at least seven and a half spaces available and um and based on the calculations made and and the site plan that is also from 2015 that was presented as part of this package. Uh, there are eight dedicated spaces for that smoke shop area. And is that correct? Are there eight spaces for that?

I believe there's seven. I'm not sure though. I'd have to see the plans again. Sorry. I don't remember to be honest with you because Alan Campbell uh had it all figured out. Does it say up here? So, we're looking at um the last page of the package. I need my glasses, which is Exhibit D at the end is a copy of the 2015 site plan by Alan Campbell.

Sure. Yeah. Unfortunately, the print is very small. Uh but what we can see everybody's looking at it is uh it depicts uh eight spaces Route 15 and it shows the uh the two buildings uh which are the buildings right up against Route 15 with the parking in the front. Correct. Correct. Yep. Okay. And then um and then unit the unit that's in question was previously was labeled at the time as computer urgent care. Correct. Correct. Yep. Okay. And then um so the is here. Okay. Four.

Five. Six. Seven. Yep. What's that? Is that eight? That's a handicapped right there. Yes. Okay. So, be Oh, that's Yep. Okay. Faces. That's what it looks Yes, that's what it looks like. I need thicker glasses. Okay. And let the record show that Dr. Neggery needs thicker glasses. Uh so the the position that we've taken is that uh the parking is sufficient uh for these for these uses and that the uses themselves haven't changed. And then there is a you do have a plan correct for the future. Uh

yes, we're working on an updated site plan. and my engineer uh Alan Campbell and my architect Charlie Schaefer working on updating it so that we can come make it more clear and efficient for the other part of the property so everything is spelled out okay and that's uh okay so then uh review Mr. Simmons had uh prepared a report and made some suggestions of areas of testimony uh that he would like to hear from and would like the board to hear hear about. Um the one is uh on page three uh paragraph five u the question has to do with the use of the uh of the restaurant building. So, let's just take a look real fast at package on um in exhibit 3 A at the end right before exhibit B there is a floor plan of the restaurant. You see that?

Yes, I do. I see that. Okay. And that layout that you see in that floor plan, is that the existing layout as it has existed over the years? Yes, it is. And will anything change with that layout? No, nothing's changing. And you see the shaded area on the uh on this floor plan. Um is that the seating and uh service and eating area? Yes, that's the dining room and the seating area. Yes. And that's where the patrons come. Correct. And then the uh explain uh what you what the use is for the balance of this area.

Well, as you come into the restaurant, to the left is the seating area. Um and then to the right is the prep area where they sometimes they in previous times they made sandwiches. Um there were used to be pizza ovens right up front there. There's a sink with a counter for coffee and soft drinks. And then you go back into the kitchen. And then outside the kitchen door is the freezer and refrigerators uh commercial grade. There is an office off the kitchen that uh was for storage and had a little computer to keep track of inventory and stuff. Okay. Yep. That's

And then typically how many uh people would work uh in this for for this a restaurant of this size over the years? You know what? I was not involved in the restaurant, but I would say um probably two servers, one at the counter, maybe five five people. Okay. Roughly. And I know you weren't running the restaurant, but your husband was. Yes, he was. Yep. Your daughter was. Yep. And you actually observed the number of employees working there. Correct. Yes. Does that number drive with your experience? Yes, it does. Okay. And then did you ever see uh problems with overflow parking in the parking spaces that were set aside for this? No, there was never a parking problem. Okay.

And he was quite busy. Okay. Then um other question on Mr. Simmons's um report of page three. Paragraph 5 B2 uh the N this has to do with the smoke shop the number of employees and customers anticipated and uh you've made inquiries about that and have actually observed the operation of the business.

I have I've spoken with the owner and uh they have one employee and possibly three people an hour but and they do come and go. It's not something where they stay in there a long period of time. Have you witnessed at all any the spaces the age the eight spaces set aside for this being um overused or No, it's not been a problem.

Okay. And then uh with regard to the it's now on page four of Mr. Simmons's report um this has to do with the signage the freestanding sign in paragraph 11 uh D. Well, let's Yeah. 11 C. Um, the LED portion of the freestanding sign. Now, that's something that's existed for many years. I actually had that approved in 2015 when I came in front of the board. Okay.

And a a copy of the resolution is included with the package. Um, and that LED portion, um, is that just going to be used for in connection with advertising for the Sparta Mediterranean Cuisine? Yes, the restaurant is the sole user of that and it has certain limitations. It cannot flash. Um, it is turned off usually. I believe it's 11 p.m. so that it is not lit at night. Um, it does not move. It's they may Yeah, it's basically that's it. Okay. And also there's other limitations in letter D. Only one color background and one color lettering with three lines of type maximum.

Correct. All right. You It will not be lit overnight. That is correct. Uh the message will change uh be changed once a week. That is correct. And the illumination letter levels are to be reviewed and approved by the board engineer. Yes, they already they were in 2015 and they have not changed. Okay. And these are you recall these are conditions that are also included in the prior resolutions. It absolutely was. Okay. And um All right. And you understand that these restrictions are to remain in effect?

Absolutely. again with reference to the package. Um, with regard to the smoke shop, the board could see um in exhibit A, a few pages in a um depiction of the proposed Sparta Smoke Shop sign and its uh anticipated location on the building itself. and then a comparison uh to the prior sign that was on the property. So, this was it appears to be prepared by EM signs.

ENM signs. Yes. Okay. And did they work with you on that? Uh they worked with my tenants on that. Yes. So that it was within uh specifications to be approved. Okay. And uh you reviewed the sign yourself? I have with them. Yes. It's acceptable to you?

Yes. Then um with regard to the restaurant site and this is exhibit 3A of the package again a few pages And um there is a depiction of a sign for Sparta Mediterranean cuisine. Yes. All right. And again, who who prepared that?

ENM signs. And again, was that um was that done in collaboration with the with the restaurant owner? Yes. Okay. And again, you reviewed it and approved it. I did, and I spoke with Ron. Uh it's within the specifications that Sparta requires. And then the next page um shows I guess a depiction as as it would look on the uh freestanding sign. Yes. And then the page after that shows the existing freestanding sign without any sign in its place.

Correct. Council, why were there so computer urgent care is going to be replaced with the smoke shop signage? That's correct. And the physical therapy. Let me just show uh Dr. Negri. Yeah, that will remain the same. Okay. And now I did drive by the site.

Um the physical therap is that your operation? No, there is a physical therapist that rents from me. She's in the back area. She's been there for many years. See, the challenge uh and one of the reasons the application unfortunately became delayed is we're looking at a 2015 site plan and that's very unusual. Uh it especially when the site plan has tenants that are no longer there. And again, when I drove the site, the it was it's not like it's a freshly paved lot that it was easy to see where the parking spaces were.

I understand. Yeah. And that's why my uh engineer, my attorney, and um Charlie Schaefer, we are working presently on a new site plan. We're hoping to get them opened with the smoke shop's new sign, the restaurant get opened, and then we're hoping to come in front of the board soon with the new site plan so that Alan Kimmel said once the new one is done, um it'll be very explicit as so that when tenants come and go, it'll be a much easier process. If I'm looking at the 2015 site plan,

where is the physical therapist? If you pull in uh the driveway as right before the smoke shop, there is a building in the back on the right hand side and there are two tenants in there. The one is the physical therapist and then there is a gal that rents a small office space for uh she above the rest transport. She transports people whether it's elderly or people that need um assistance with things and on the plan it's not dead's office.

Yes, she she is renting uh part of that space right now. There was a photographer in there but uh they relocated to South Carolina. So that space is empty right now. And before we do anything with that, we're hoping again I want to make sure everything's in order. come in front of the board with a new site plan so that everything is coherent and done correctly. Is the office labeled for? Is that the physical therapist? Put the glasses on here. No, let me get my bearings. Yes, she is number four. Yes. Okay. So, that's PT. PT physical. One 1A is this transporter person

above the wrist transport it's called. Yes.

And number three, the former dwelling, there is no more residential there. That's that is above the rest home care. That is a separate business. They rent that Cedar Shake House. Um, it's like home healthcare and they hire nurses or LPNs to go help people in out of their home. There's not a lot of people coming and going out of there and there's usually one or two employees in there. Prior to that, it was a um a realtor's office and Alan Campbell had mentioned to me that the realtor office required much more parking than what the tenant that is there now. But that we're going to hopefully come back at a later date and get that all organized once we can get these guys up and running uh their businesses. Since we're on that topic, may I ask a couple of questions? Of

course. As we, you know, we met with you, we tried to um see what we could do to move it along. And one of the questions was um a listing of all the current tenants and trying to figure out the parking, which we never really got. So, I'm glad we're going over that now. And I know now what is in each of these spaces. But can we go over the square footage then? So if the restaurant was number one and that's 52 seats and I think everybody agrees it's one for every three seats which would be 18 parking spaces.

Council, do you have do you have uh Neglia's report in front of you? Neglia's report. I do. You have it. One second. I think that one uh John I think Negley is well I that's I had a issue with some of the numbers there so I just want to go through each of the numbers so that we're all consistent here. Okay.

Okay. So we have the restaurant and that does show the um 16 oh 16 spaces. I wrote 18. Okay. Um retail smoke shop that's 1,500 and that's at a rate of one per 200 and that's listed as number two. um the 1A with 1,200 square feet which was the photographer and the transport I don't see on here. Um and I'm pulling the 1,200 square feet off of your um latest uh that you submitted your uh site plan. So that one needs to be cleared up. And then the office uh which in number three which was the old residential and is now above the um rest healthc care that's 2800 square

ft and I don't I think um maybe I don't know where that is on this chart either it was hard to follow I I understand and then the physical therapy is 800 square feet not 1,800 probably about 800 square feet that is correct

so if we had 1,200 square feet 1500 00 ft. 2800 and 800. That's 6,300 square feet. With a ratio of one per 200 spaces or one space per 200 square ft, that would come to 32 spaces for these businesses plus the 16 um for the uh restaurant and compared to how many you have. And that's what we were trying to figure out then and we're still I guess kind of trying to figure it out now. So today's a great day to do it. Yes. Okay. Yep. Um and again, Allan is addressing that as we speak, right? But we're here now. I get it. I hear you.

I guess the way we are looking at it, we're looking at this not as a major site plan overhaul uh for the entire site, but really as a tenant change for two spots uh where the parking uh requirements for those two spots had already been uh kind of sorted out over the years. Uh but

when you look at a multi-tenant building, you have to take everything in consideration particularly because so much had changed from here on here. These businesses don't exist anymore. So um you know, one of the things that we grappled with originally is when the smoke shop came in and said that there were going to be 30 patrons at any given time. So you know, that kind of triggered everything too. And it was a change in use. It wasn't from a computer office space. It then went to retail. So that triggered all of that. Oh, okay. So, um you know, if we're looking at it now, my numbers come to we need 50 spaces.

I know Allan also spoke to me about um there's two spaces. He said that you could we could uh have stacked cars, two cars or two spaces. Um and again he mentioned that when the realtor office left the above the rest home care needed like a 2/3 less of what the realtor office was required one for every 200 whatever. Okay. Yeah. But part of that is a basement that they don't um it's more storage of um it's just a storage area in the basement. I don't know if that would include that area. Yeah.

In what we're talking Yeah. because there's nothing down there except for a bunch of my Well, you look at it as what is on the whole site because the tenants do change and so we're looking at it what it could be. So, we're looking at I guess 50 spots and and how many spaces do you have because I see one number 37. I see another one. I thought there was 47 if I'm not but I might not be 100% correct on that. I believe the calculation was

I found on uh section three of your exhibit, the second page of the Kelly and Ward letter that was given to the minor site plan. Under three parking, you say there are 45 existing improved parking spots on the property. The current site plan was approved in 2015 and includes 45 total parking spaces, the option for three additional parking spaces to be stacked for employee use, and a waiver for eight spaces associated with the real estate office approved to occupy the separate bungalow on the property. That's from March of 2025. So the two tenant changes that we're asking for I mean really would be substituting one for another is I guess our position that it's it's not going to

if you look at the whole site plan I guess I see it on here too now 45 versus 50. So that would require a variance. So, I think we should bring it to uh to our professionals so that they can expand on on everything that brought it that Jonas brought to light. So, uh Mr. Simmons, if you wouldn't mind addressing your report.

Uh Madame Chair and board members, just referring to the report we prepared dated August 1st, 2025. I would have to say that Mr. McGovern went over through his testimony with Dr. Negri. Um, most of the items that I had, uh, with regards to the parking, uh, based on the information that we were presented with and that I understand from the testimony tonight, uh, I'm of the opinion that the restaurant is a restaurant substituting for the previous restaurant and the smoke shop is, uh, similar in nature to the businesses that were there before. The one item that didn't get addressed in testimony perhaps they could elaborate on is item number 5C, the days and hours of operation for those two tenants. If they could provide them, please.

You spoke with the tenants, correct? Yeah, but I can't testify. I can't testify. So Oh, okay. So I believe the smoke shop is 9 to 9. Is that correct? and the restaurant. Aussie, what are your hours going to be? 10:00 am to 11 p.m. Okay. Okay. For the rest of 7 days a week, I believe both are seven days a week. Correct, gentlemen. Okay.

Okay. Uh, with regards to the site improvements, uh, nothing changing as far as the lighting or the impervious cover. So, there's no storm water mitigation required. uh they're served by an existing well the septic system I understand Dr. Negri said that the county health department had inspected the facilities and they can just provide verification that the existing septic system is still acceptable. They're not proposing any landscaping or architectural changes with regards to the signage. Uh again the key thing that is from the previous resolution was the fact that there were specific guidelines as far as the LED electronic message board was concerned and the applicant has agreed to comply with all them. And the other item that I wanted to make sure of was that the Sparta Mediterranean Cuisine restaurant will be the only advertising on that board, not any other business in the area, which would basically possibly make it a billboard. So, that's not the case there. Uh, from what I read from the information that was provided, uh, with regards to the smoke shop, the signage is basically going in the same general area, same general size. Uh, no EIS was required. there's nothing uh is going to be impacted as far as I could tell from the application documents and with regards to approval of the county health department which Dr. Negri mentioned they've been out there uh the fire prevention bureau and obviously the construction official to make sure all the facilities are up to par as far as the restaurant and what have you is concerned and those are my major comments madam chair.

Thank you. Um so my major comments are kind of related to more housekeeping type items. As Miss Ferman brought up in our letter, we requested them to provide a breakdown of all the uses and the square footage to determine the exact number of parking spaces required because it was unclear from the site plan since it is from 2015 and it's not to scale. So, it is difficult to read. Um, so that is kind of why there's a discrepancy between the parking I believe this evening. Um, the additional items that we requested as well were a signage zoning table illustrating the signage that is being proposed. Um, we were just given the the dimensions for the smoke shop and I think having some kind of table showing the dimensions with the um zoning related to what is permitted, what is existing and what is proposed would be helpful in making a decision um and confirming that they are compliant with the ordinance. In addition, there's a number of um sign ordinances um as it was brought up earlier this evening. Um, one of the biggest ones is there should be a sign plan submitted which shows that all of the signs on site in a multi-tenented and multi- um, a property with multiple buildings has signs that are integrated and coordinated. Um, so I think that that would be kind of critical for this evening. I know signs are something that are pretty sensitive here in the township of Sparta and I think that's important for the board to have to be able to make a decision. Um my next question as well with the parking is they say there are 52 seats. However, if you look on Google Street View, there are additional three tables outside. So if we can confirm if those are additional um seating that will be there permanently or not because that will then increase the parking requirement. Um and then also some kind of parking plan should be required so they can show how the spaces are delineated as well as ensuring that the

spaces for each use are used properly. um so there's not uh you know parking so we can make sure the parking spaces are distributed to the correct use. Um and the last question I have is just kind of functional um how deliveries are going to be handled between the two uses. Um are they expecting any deliveries from larger trucks um and how they will circulate through the site and also ref use and how rough use is collected on site. Do you agree with Jones assessment with regard to based on the information that we have for square footage for for the parking at at 50? Um, I would want I would feel more comfortable with the applicant providing a breakdown of the parking and the uses on site so that we can fully confirm what is on the site. Even if it's as simple as just an Excel document saying this use, this this and that. Um, I think that would be helpful. Unfortunately, I know not much has changed on the site. The sizes of the building are the same, but I just want to confirm that the uses align with the parking requirement and then the parking um makes sense and the calculations are correct.

Yeah, I agree. I I'm looking at Google view on the on that property. I'm I'm getting around 40 parking spaces, but it's hard to tell what is and what isn't as you said for So, I think we really need to Yeah. And I know that the applicant said they're working on a site plan, a new site plan. Um, but maybe at this time it's as simple as just providing a breakdown Excel document where we can see physically what is on site, labeled the building, label the use, parking requirement, what they're proposing or what they have for that use. I think that would be very helpful.

Uh if if I could board um and again I did drive by the site. Um I agree with with David in that if you take a global look at a restaurant was there, a restaurant is coming in. Uh the smoke shop has taken over space. Uh I didn't know the prior building, but it doesn't look like the footprint has changed much and it obviously is a permitted use. both of those in the zone. So, as David said, it's a like for like uh and I know that we meet every two weeks, which is good, but we also know the pressure on the property owner, and also I'm sure they'd like to open the restaurant sooner than later. Uh one option may be to give a prelim if you're so inclined to give a preliminary site plan approval uh so the restaurant could move forward in their tasks and then uh uh reserve on the final approval until you get the revised plan. Again, the preliminary approval is saying as David said, a like to like a restaurant is okay. A new restaurant can come in. Um the smoke shop uh again is permitted a preliminary site plan approval, but the final site plan approval would not be granted until you get the revised uh site plan uh as Ernie just said, showing where the parking spaces are and the like. That may again, you're the planning board. One of the topics we were talking about is that an applicant is before you because it's a permitted use. So, uh, working with the the property owner, this that may be a way of allowing them to continue their good faith efforts, but recognizing the applicant that uh this board that's an unusual relief that they would be doing for you if they do decide that.

How many parking spaces are we talking required? Joan, what did you say around? He said 50. I calculate 50 based on the numbers from their site plan with the square footage. Um and I don't I didn't know about these three outside and that's a whole other question. Um was it ever approved for outdoor dining? Because if not then that may have been a carryover from CO may have been. I'm not sure. Um but I do want to say if you go up and down Route 15 between the bagel station um the Sprinkle Shack, everybody's got outdoor dining and you know, they've made patios, they've made all kinds of stuff.

Maybe maybe they were approved. I can't speak to any of them. I'm just asking for this property. I I don't know the answer to that question to be honest with you. So, um, I I think if we're if we're talking about a preliminary approval, you know, it really has to be that can you get to 50 spaces, you know, I mean, otherwise we're talking about a variance, right? So, exactly right. And again, like I'm looking at Google. I I'm I'm somewhere between like 42 and 47 depending on the blobs that are on there as to what they are as to whether they're a dumpster or whether it's a marks. So I mean I think it's you know a matter of you know what you know are you confident you can get to that 50.

And also to Miss Knight's point um regarding circulation for for deliveries and and for refu pickup. I mean we I couldn't get a good look. Yeah, I think the circulation is okay because they do share the parking lot with or the property, the adjacent property on the one side of the restaurant um shares. So, they have parking, but it's a shared driveway. So, it seems like there's pretty good circulation on that side. It's the other side's a little tighter, but I don't think they're getting the same amount of deliveries over there where the the transport is or the back.

One of the reasons with the counting I think might be because you're counting back to back. You said you could double park. Yeah, but we I didn't count I think there was 47 spots without the stacked parking. Again, I'd have to talk with Alan Campbell, but I believe there was 47 spots. And as far as the gu uh the deliveries, there is when the delivery truck pulls in. Granted, there is an area alongside the freezer, the freezer and refrigerator, the huge commercial freezer. There's an area that is away from the they can back right in where they can take the stuff right in the kitchen door that's marked off. It's hatched out.

Yeah. On the Sorry for interrupting you. Um the on the site this site plan from 2015, it says total spaces provided 45 and then it says variance for eight spaces required. So it appears that in 2015 um 53 spaces were required based on those uses and 45 spaces were on the site. So I think just that may have been when the realtor was in there also the realtor office. Uh I'm I'm sure because it says office warehouse storage. So many of these uses are no longer what's on the site. So once again by providing us with that I think it would provide us with a clearer idea of what is happening. Yeah.

So two questions. Um, number one, what's the timeline for your your official site plan? Oh, he's pretty much uh he's they've already measured um him and the architect have been there. They've measured their it's it's getting close to where I'd like to get it done and come in front of the board. But of course, these guys I mean, is it possible that it can be done before our next meeting?

I have no idea. I would have to talk to Alan Campbell, but I I know Allan is a busy man and I know he was working on it, so I'm not sure how far he's gotten. Okay. So, question number two then, um, would it be possible to provide us with something similar to what Lindsay was discussing in terms of just maybe an Excel sheet that kind of shows us what's where, even if it's not an official. Yes. If we can get these guys up and running and I will work on that as absolutely as soon as possible and talk with Allan maybe see what he's got uh how far along he is prepared. Is the the restaurant are they I drove by but how long until they'd be able to open?

They are ready to open. They are ready to open. And you know I've I've lost nine months of rent with them and months of rent through the smoke shop. My taxes on that property are $34,000 a year. 1.75 acres. My insurance is $9,000 a year. That doesn't incl That's just those I'm trying to stay afloat to get them going. Uh, you know, I don't want to lose this property. When my husband passed away, we struggled to keep things going. He owned two other restaurants that I was thrown into overnight, and it had been a nightmare. But now we're in a good place and we were in a good place. But again, I've just lost so much rent that if we can get them up and moving, I will promise you that we will get you that site plan. I will talk with Allen. I know he's already been there and measured with the architect. He's talked to my attorney, uh, Megan Ward. It is not far away. Doctor, just so you realize though, this is very unusual and in a lot of other municipalities, they would reject your application as of right. You wouldn't even be before the board.

I understand. So I understand and I app I know you guys are all volunteers, so I appreciate at least being here tonight. We have been waiting a very long time and it's been a great expense.

My thoughts are as Mr. Simmons said that uh like to like and as long as they're can conform with the last uh variance and come into those same numbers um I'd be comfortable with that. And if you look at the uh that the 2015 exhibit, it does as was repeated, I think uh Lindsay just said 45 provided variance for eight required uh variance granted March 25th, 2015. I know in the package there are some resolutions, but they reference prior. Uh but as uh David and Ernie just said, the if it's the like for like with a preliminary approval, uh I think that's something that uh I could protect you as the board attorney in your resolution.

I do want to say one of those spaces is empty. I am not renting it out to anybody at this point until we get the the revised site plan with Allen so that it doesn't take up any more parking spots.

And that's a good point. Now, describe the space that's empty. the the the space that is known as 1A 1A has two little offices with a large room in the back area that was rented to the photographer. The one the small office is rented to above the rest transport. It's a it's a very small office. The rest of that is vacant. I will not rent it until I know that legally I can put something in that. So we stay within the guidelines of Sparta Township. The 1A is right next to the physical therapist if you look at it.

No one A says 1,000 square ft office that is vacant. That the there one there's two little offices as part of that, right? It says real estate.

It's probably No, the Yeah, it's the above the above the rest transport. She's got a office maybe 300 square feet at the most if that. She's the only one in there. The rest of that is vacant. When the photographer moved out in September, I did not rent that so that I could come in front of the board and do the right thing to make sure that we have the proper parking spaces. So that those parking spaces for that office are not being used by that spot. Now, how about in the 2015 again it says 1A office and then it says excuse me underneath that warehouse storage. I'm looking at your 2015

1A that used to be some storage for the restaurant when my husband was alive. Um that was his partly his office where they would store stuff for the restaurant. Yeah. I I'm just trying to make it easy on myself because if we say that no further use at 1A on your 2015, I don't believe that is I'm not sure that that is all vacant right now or is it? It says 1A storage for restaurant. If the new restaurant operation comes in, are they utilizing 1A? No, they are not.

Okay. Is anybody in 1A? right now. Yes. Above the rest transport, she has an office maybe 2 to 300 square f feet. A small There's two small offices as you walk in and the larger area is in the back. But if the board was to give you preliminary approval, you would agree that you would not rent out uh any further space in the complex until final site plan approval is granted?

Absolutely. what I would hope to do in the future, and Al and I have talked about it. I am a chiropractor. I've been practicing over 40 years. I'm 68 years old. I'm retiring. Um, I have three children in Florida. when I come back up to this area every couple months and we may try to get approval. I'd like to put one chiropractic table back there or maybe I could see a few people every couple months just to you know we'll see if we get to that point with if Sparta would allow that which not would not require law space.

Yeah. Is there any room in the back at all where you could expand parking or somebody like lease a parking space from some land in the at somebody else in the back? You know, I believe uh I don't know the answer to that question, but I know Allen probably would. Alan Campbell probably would. And I would be absolutely willing to do that if I needed to to get this property up and going and keep it uh proper. And then and then you'll also come back with a multi-tenant sign plan where they're all consistent, the same colors, same Okay, I have a question.

Um, so if I may, that when was this application dee deemed complete or or we're kind of saying it's quasi complete at this point, Mr. Porro?

I think it's quasi. Uh, okay. the as a courtesy I I know that this has been around for a while and uh uh so I'm I'm satisfied that you have enough before you for preliminary approval. I have paused uh that if there was a problem on final approval, but the applicant has already agreed uh to the like for like as far as the restaurant and the smokes shop for a preliminary approval so they can get up and going and then before they get a final approval uh that they would provide a final plan and parking and there would be no additional operation in 1A. Uh so that's our discussion right now. So, with that being said, I have a follow-up question. Um, how does ordinance 256 bear on the retail use on this? Because that I think that went into effect in February. So, I don't know if the lawyer or planner could weigh in on my understanding is PCED has uh a restriction on retail uses within PCED.

So, you're saying the smoke shop operation Yeah. I mean, specifically, it's it's uh you know, you want to take a look at 256. Well, I I would just say this. I mean, again, I drove by the site uh and I've driven that that uh roadway. Uh we would be hardressed to say that the smoke shop that's in operation there now is uh not in compliance. They may be grandfathered. They may may be now a uh pre-existing non-conforming use. Uh but as far as they are up and running, they obviously got some approvals from the town. So I

All right. So they got some approvals, but the application is quasi complete, but prohibited uses in PCED include outdoor retail sales, retail display areas, and the only permitted uses are agricultural uses and outdoor recreational uses. So presumed prohibited, right? I would say that just checking, right? It's my professional opinion there are pre-existing non-conforming use if under that statute. So pre-existing non-conforming because the smoke shop has been operating prior to receipt of complete application or from the previous uh retail use bearing on this.

They they obviously got some approval either in the building department zoning that they are up and running. They don't have a sign approval. They don't have other approvals, but the use again they're before the planning board. Now, if that new ordinance uh comes into into place, um well, it's in place. Well, what do do we have any idea at what point they got their certificate of occupancy when November of last year? I'm sorry. It was November. November of last year. The the gentleman in the back who with with the smoke shock, can you stand please? The Islamist swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and not but the truth of be God. What is your name, please? Please give him a microphone.

You can give him the other one. Good evening. Uh your name, sir. You have Raj Oroy. Spell that please. Y u V R A J. And you're that's Ooy. O B E R O I. And you're the owner of the smoke shop. That's correct. And when did you get the certificate of occupancy open up? Uh November 20th, 2024. Okay, that's good enough for me. I don't know if So, can I have a question, please? Go ahead. Okay. Um,

just because I'm kind of a beginner at this, I don't understand how this is like for like. We had a computer repair shop doing repairs and now we are selling selling something is repair and sales that those are the same thing. I'm I'm satisfied that the in November of 2024, the use that was proposed at this site was such that the building department found or the zoning officer found was permitted. They have a certificate of occupancy for the property. Uh, so I mean we could historically go back and see how that happened, but they're in possession and they've been there since November 2024. So, uh, again, I haven't done the research on why they are pre-existing. Uh, but they're absolutely there.

Okay. Um, thank you. Um, why does it say in Mr. Kelly's report that the Sparta spoke shop was advised it could open prior to appearing here before the the board without the parking spaces straightened out without you know the use discussed without anything h how can that happen? Well, as um as David uh our engineer had noted, you've got the four corners of the building. If the four corners of the building did not expand, and it's not uncommon that a use that is permitted can move into the space because there's an assumption. Now the tenency uh on parking let's say that the tenant moves in has a different parking requirement but it looks here that the operation has one employee and uh limited uh uh customer base. So there was a determination by someone that they were permitted to go into that zone.

Okay, great. Um change in use is supposed to come before the minor site plan subcommittee. Oh, did the change in use come in front of the Meyer site plan committee? No, I don't know. No, no. Oh, that's not good. That was at the end of last year. So, yeah, you never seen it at the end of last year. I know. It did not come to the minor site plan subcommittee. So, just not good, right? That's not good. Okay.

Section two uh of what was provided by Kelly and Ward. Page one um says zoning approval conditions for zoning uh retail use was approved November 20th 24 2024. No interior exterior changes. Sale or distribution of cannabis prohibited. And if a new sign is proposed that is not a like forlike replacement, a minor site plan application is needed. Um, and previously an ED zone wherein retail uses were not permitted, but subsequently I believe they were permitted and now they're not as February 2025. Okay. Just want to get that on there.

All right. So, let's Okay. So, next thing I next thing I wanted to know is is is are are you a is this is the Sparta Smoke Shop LLC a licensed cannabis retailer? I'm sorry, sir. No, it's not. It's not. Okay. Um, is it a class five retailer licency? I would not be able to answer that. You mean as in cannabis? Okay. Have has the Sparta Smoke Shop been through the full state licensing process to sell cannabis? Uh, and

I'm sorry. Go ahead. Please go, please go right ahead. Right. So, just to let the whole board know, we are not a cannabis store. We sell hemp derived products which are under.3% THC. And that's it. That's not considered for my knowledge cannabis. It's all hemp derived products. Okay. See, because I didn't understand that today. I was in there and you can look at me. I'm on the tape at 4:00. I was in there for about 20 minutes. Lovely girl, very helpful,

very explanatory. Told taught me a lot about lot a lot about it. Was kind of bringing me back to my high school days. It was really kind of refreshing. Um, and I was thinking of it. They said that uh, you know, she said that I could buy buy some flour flower bud that would allow me to get get really stoned or I could just buy flower stuff that would just make me feel smooth all throughout. Now, is that is that the product? Is that is that Did you buy it?

No, I didn't buy I didn't buy anything. Please, just for the record, I did not purchase anything. I was just a shopper. Okay. Um just shopping. So, I just wanted to know is what was she trying to sell me? Hemp. Hemp. And that's different. The THC is lower. That is correct. That's according to the 2018 Farm Bill. Um, anything that contains less than.3% THC is considered hemp products. And this is hemp derived.

Okay. So, if I go in tomorrow, I would not see something that's.5 or higher. No, sir. Every product has barcodes on it. You can scan it. Lab reports pop up. We do not sell anything that is out of packaging or does not have any significant labeling or any sort of uh nondescriptive. So that is it. Great. Okay. So also along that line now would would Sparta be receiving any tax revenue from this your sales He may he may not understand that.

Can I invite my partner? You can ask anybody. Yeah. Does try to tell the truth the whole truth and not put the truth. Uh name and address for the record, please. The microphone. Hello. Hartar Johan. H A R A V T A R. Last name Jawan. C H A U H N. and your involvement to uncle but I have experience I'm adviser uncle uh my wife is a partner in the business can you answer the question of council of course

so all the products that we carry are farm bill compliant and uh these are all hemp derived legal in the state of New Jersey uh you know and all the products that we have are compliant throughout the state as well as federally and this doesn't fall under the recreational marijuana. This is a hemp derived product legal in all 50 states. And this isn't like where you would sell cannabis and give a percentage to the town sales tax. Just the New Jersey sales tax. It's not under any of those uh you know products.

So the leg the legalized THC concentration is below.3%. So maybe the person helping you just thought you had a low tolerance. Yeah, maybe that maybe that that Yeah, maybe I I I could have been delusional that I saw higher higher levels than that, but maybe, you know, I I've made mistakes before. Um, so, you know, on on in the corners, you know, there was a a vast array of glass pipes there. Yes.

All right. And those glass pipes could be used for for many things, right? They could be used for crystal meth. They could be used for crack cocaine. In fact, there were special stems that were that looked just like cracked cocaine stems. All right. With little with little uh screens in them already put in. Now, that's that's convenience, right? So, um I was just looking at that and then I was looking and I turned and I looked up at the at the torches, right? Because instead of just using a lighter like I used to do in high school, right now you can you could put this torch like they do when they smoke crystal meth or crack cocaine and and you have a whole display of those. And that is that's that's illegal in the state of New Jersey under, you know, NJSA2C-36-2. And I just don't I don't understand why that's allowed in in in in in our town. I mean, I I go to the lovely restaurant that it sounds like it's going to be and I come out with my child and we go by the store and I have to explain what these things are. And I I didn't move here for that. And I don't believe that this is a legal operation. That's just my humble opinion.

Councilman Scott, unfortunately, we're we're not here to to disparage any anybody. I'm not I'm not disparaging anybody. I'm just saying it doesn't appear to me to be It sounds like when you were there, you if if you truly felt that way, you should have called the police. Um that that's what it sounds like. Okay. Well, thank you. But the unfortunate circumstances that's that's beyond the purview of of the board and and what we're doing right now. Um

so I I think we should probably bring it back to um the the application and uh seeing as though we haven't yet opened it to the public after uh Burgett's question. Okay. Um so Mr. Simmons in his report uh under septic system said the existing buildings are served by existing septic systems. Confirmation on the adequacy of the existing septic systems to be obtained from Sussex County Health Department. uh in an email today um received by uh the Sparta uh planning department. Um it said that the health officer or or such um took a quick look at the septic records and found that the metal septic tank was replaced with a concrete 1500 two compartment tank in 2003. The tank and any components should be loadbearing if it is in the parking lot. The septic disposal field appears to be the original and was designed for 5,940 square ft retail use as well as two apartments. Total volume designed for 1,464 I'm assuming gallons gallons. If this system has not been inspected to ensure it is operating properly properly, this should be considered. There is a change to one two-bedroom apartment as well as taekwond do classes in the retail space. The septic size volume may need to be reviewed to ensure it is still sized properly. Um can you speak to the septic

that? Yeah, I'm that deals with your prior application. This this was this was under the Sparta smoke shop and Mediterranean cuisine email. So I think perhaps that was just forwarded to me this evening from his ward. That might have been a typo about the taekwond do but specifically it's this is very specific to a different property to 25736. It says Sparta smoke shop and Mediterranean cuisine. I think it was mislabeled because it's not our property. They probably mistakenly put our label on the application that was before you earlier tonight. Well, it's from Dave. David, you're right. That's what it said. I I did not see that email. Tin metal.

Well, does it have a blocking law on it? Just came in. I mean, there are three there are three septic areas marked on the 2015 site plan. One is uh uh in front of what is still labeled as building number two or space number two, the computer urgent care. It has two septic things. And then towards the back of the building, there is a reserve septic disposal area and a septic air.

Yes. Just for the board there, there there is nothing wrong we've done in the past put as a condition of any approval that they're prior to opening that they have compliance with uh all those public health safety issues and the septic so that that uh uh that is not a problem with putting that as a condition before they open. I mean, when Yeah. When was I mean, we need to know at least that the septic would be able to accommodate.

I I agree with what you're saying. And as a matter of fact, just so the board and for the record on page five of my report, item number 13A, Sussex County Health Department septic system confirmation. So, I I agree with what you're saying, and Mr. McGovern and Dr. Negri can confirm uh as a condition of approval they'd be willing to do that. Yeah. The only of course my only concern of course is we'd love to get this place operating. Right. But it you know I understand. Right. Believe me. Just so it's very clear.

I understand they if the toilets don't don't operate. Nobody's opening. So for the applicant council you agree that as that would be a condition prior to opening. I think we're at the point where we should open to uh to the public here for any questions.

Just one minor point. My first point I won't won't make any friends but I've been saying this since I was on a pling Mike Divine OP Sparta.

I've been saying this since I was on a planning board a thousand years ago. We spend so much time on signs and parking and other things that it would seem to me they could almost be solved by a robot before it becomes in front of you people and you might focus on bigger picture things. I sat here thinking what about cannabis? It's such a hot topic. Are they going to sell cannabis? I thought Councilman Scott's point about the pipes is something worth discussing. That seems to me it's relevant. I know when I use the uh therapy place, which is right adjacent to them, to turn left. If I'm going north on 15, I got to go in a crosshatch yellow area and make a left-hand turn. I'm sitting in the middle of the highway for five minutes trying to turn. If I come out and I want to turn left, that's another big problem. I haven't heard any discussion of things like that. Aren't they maybe more relevant than if we have five or six parking spaces? I I think it's a safety hazard the way they turn in. I don't know how they've been screwing around for 6 months, not you. I really think we should be leaning towards getting businesses, desirable businesses underway. It It concerns me as a resident that they've had to go through whatever six months is. I don't still understand exactly what the smoke shop is. I know the cigar shop has like lounges where you sit there and smoke. Apparently, they're not going to do anything like that, I guess. that would affect the residence time of people in the parking. So, I I don't know that we've really probed into some fairly important things, but I hesitate to bring it up because I like this I like you to say tonight given these circumstances, these conditions, etc., these agreements, let them start. So, that that's my point of view.

Thank you. Hi. Hi. Not made for short people. Um, Beth Broadick, Northshore. I have a question kind of like what Mike was saying. Little louder. How is the was a traffic study done to handle the volume of people in and out? I know you said at one point I think you said 30 people for the smoke shop. Is that I thought I heard 30 people at one point. That was an error in the beginning when they uh Okay.

And then there was how is the volume in and out going to go? Like Mike said, what about safety going in and out? That is I think according to McCarrick's report the worst spot for cars and driver safety in all of Sparta. How is that being addressed to make sure that when people are going to support these businesses that they're not going to get clocked by a truck or something or whatever goes on there? My other question is with the delivery trucks, what time would the deliveries be coming? Because if you have people in and out from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. based on the outlying hours, how is that going to work with people in and out? And can the trucks get in and out safely without causing a problem for everybody that's going to be in and out of there? Because again, you've got a big truck. I don't know what size truck is going to be coming in, but are they going to be backing in? Is that going to be a problem with Route 15 and customers going in and out supporting these businesses?

My husband never allowed delivery trucks to come during lunch or dinner. It was always prior to opening or in the afternoon between lunch and dinner. No, if they have to go out, they can go right, take a left at Shopright if they had to and go around. It's really That's right. You mean anybody? Sure. Or you could go down to um Limerest and even come around to Wilson Drive if you had to get back onto 15.

Okay. I'm going to be a smartass. Um that's an awful lot to ask for a customer to do to be safe. But also 2010, 2000, 1999, whatever. Route 15 is very different than 2025. Route 15 with the housing development and all of the businesses across the street in the shop shop center. Traffic is very different now than it was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago before co. So that's gonna that's something that's of concern. And I think it's also a lot to say, "Okay, well, gee, we want to open. We want people to come in. We want to support the local businesses." And I'm a big supporter of local businesses. But I think it's a lot to say, "Okay, guys, we're in a rush to get this open." But it may or may not be a good idea for you to pull in and out of the parking lot. If you want to go left to go up to White Lake Road or go up to Dunkin Donuts, you have to make a right, go down to the jug handle on Route 15 over the railroad tracks and everything to come back up to go to Dunkin Donuts. If I were going to go to the restaurant and it was a pain in the ass. Sorry, the pain in the butt for me to get in. Um, sorry, I've been up since 5:15 this morning. Um, for me to turn in there and then say, "Okay, well, you want to go. You need to make a left to go on to your next thing." I'm not coming.

The food was good enough. You don't. Sorry. But I'm also a traffic nerd. So ask these guys. I asked this of everybody. So well, wasn't a Chipotle just recently approved, too? Right on the corner there. And then they were turned down and then they turned around and sued. But and now, but I'm I'm not here to talk about Chipotle. I was a big It's the same area,

right? And I asked the same questions. I I think and I'm and I'm all for getting you up and running with the $34,000 in taxes and everything else. I understand. But I think that the board needs to focus on the residents of Sparta and making sure that whatever comes in regardless of what was there before that resident safety has to come first. Nobody's going to go into a restaurant or to your shop if it's not safe to get in and out. You know, that's just going to be another challenge for you down the road. The other thing again too is with the trucks. How does that work? How big are the trucks? I know it's not going to be or I'm assuming it's not going to be like a an 18-wheeler trying to pull in there.

Okay. And there's enough room with the 50 parking spots that it always has been since 1992. Okay. And the master plan was to always put development out there, not to protect this the smarter residents and not put it into the main street. But the master plan is also 40 years old. No, it's actually not 40 years. I think wasn't there a new updated one like 20 years ago to move to Route 15 onto a major highway then onto a But either way, it's still very different. Again, I'm not again I'm not I'm just asking the questions. There's I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just asking I've been here since 1979, so I understand. I've been here since 1982.

So, you get it. So, you understand the corn fields and everything. I'm just asking to make sure that this is addressed not to be difficult because again these guys need to look at the safety of the people that would be going in and out as well as your tenants and the people that work for your tenants. So I just want to make sure um do you know did Kurt Morris do a traffic study?

I have here was by Sergeant Smith. Um he was more concerned about the parking capacity and the shortfall and the discrepancy that's going to result in those shortages and future complaints to the police department. So it ties into kind of not necessarily the volume or anything but also the safety. Okay. Thanks. Hi Dean Rhau 15 Birch Parkway. Been here for over 42 years. I tend to be very pro business and the questions that I expect to see um asked of the people sitting on the planning board have somewhat been addressed, but I think it you're getting into some minutia. As somebody in the transportation industry, I look at it as if you're not going to have a 53 foot truck pull into your facility, the dispatching of uh the company of the products for food or whatever goes in there, just like in the past, they're going to know the roads. They're going to send maybe a 28 or a 36 ft truck. They're not going to put a 52 foot truck in. They have that ability. We have that with it's called logistics. Okay? And I think that can be handled. I have seen that sign, Mediterranean cuisine and pizza coming soon. Man, I'd like it to open already. I mean, we've got 30 some odd empty buildings. I understand getting into the weeds, but it's like enough already. I mean, it we're talking a freaking sign when it comes down to it. I mean, I I think you you you got to go and you can tweak along a tweak along the way. Let them let them open and and then tweak along the way. It apparently isn't going to be cannabis. it's going to be hemp. I know that's less of an issue than um um cannabis and um I've used hemp. So, you know, um I' I'd really like to see an opportunity for

these businesses to open. Thanks. Thank you. Any other members of the public? Close to the public. We're close to the public. Go ahead. Okay. closing to the public. Mr. Bora. Yes.

Um, you know, um, it appears to me that that that proper approval was never really received here. And, you know, I I I I think to what people are saying, we want to get the restaurant open. Why can't we just approve the restaurant and, you know, claw back the smoke shop at this point in time until we get some clarity as to what's going on there, what's being sold, what's being uh what products are being sold, and get these and get this group in front of the minor site plan committee so it's done the right way.

And uh I think we still need the septic conversation. Isn't that correct, Dave? Mr. Simmons. Uh the condition was that the uh health department review the septic system and make sure it's adequate for Okay. So, we're not there yet is what you're saying. That that would be a condition of approval if the board was willing to grant it. But what if it came back afterwards and the approval was already granted?

No, it's a condition. It would never be able to open without the septic approval. My advice to you is you have two operations that uh again if you walk to the site the uh smoke shop building uh was in the footprint that didn't expand. Uh they do have a CFO uh to the property if I would ask that they uh provide a copy or Dory confirms that. But let's assume that testimony under oath is correct. The restaurant is pretty clear. Historically the restaurant was there. So I would recommend to the board if you're inclined to give preliminary approval so they can move forward. However, uh again the 2015 uh site plan is on its phase deficient and uh I would say that before they get final site plan approval that they would provide an updated uh final site plan that addresses those concerns that were discussed. by giving them preliminary site plan approval, they can move forward with their uh renovations, with their uh efforts. But so it's clear to the applicant they the restaurant could not open until they get final site plan approval. As the uh public was saying, they need to know the uh police department and the like. How are trucks coming in? Where is the dumpster? what are the hours of operation? How are you restricting uh access if any to this the streets and that is where it would be addressed in final site plan approval. Um but by giving preliminary you're allowing the applicant to move forward with their efforts in good faith. That's all I have.

So are we ready for a motion? So, is this just for the restaurant? No, I thought that it's the smoke shop sign and the restaurant renovations.

Well, the what I'm suggesting is the the smoke shop has a CFO. They don't have a sign. So, the preliminary approval is just allowing the restaurant to uh move forward. they can't open until they address the issues that were discussed and when we get the signage that would have now the proposal of smoke shop and the restaurant. So before you give final approval and hopefully it can be in two weeks at your next meeting uh that you would have these revised plans. We'd have a final site plan approval and a final signage um depiction and then they could be on their way. Could I just add something to think about? I know time is tight, but uh it's come up before, Ernie brought it up. Uh we heard from Mark. Um regarding the question of I guess products or paraphernalia possibly. Um, is is there any way we could condition so that the smoke shop is just selling uh hemp and not uh paraphernalia or how do people feel about that or just

Well, the the requirement is they have to comply with the law. So, and Ernie is here if there's a violation of a statute um they can't do it. It's it's really that. So from a zoning perspective, they have a CFO, but that does not permit them in any way, shape, or form to sell anything that is not uh proper by the state of New Jersey. Ernie, anything to add?

I just wanted to but I just wanted to call that out because it says that zoning approval conditions included no sale or distribution of cannabis, but it doesn't mention it's silent on anything regarding paraphernalia. So I would feel more comfortable including Rockway Mall and go in Spencer's Gift Shop. I mean, they've been selling that stuff for Okay. All right. years. I mean, it's it's legal to be sold in New Jersey. I mean, whether we agree with it or not, it's not it's not an illegal product. Okay.

I think this sets a bad precedent. I'm for the restaurant opening. I'd love to see it open, but I think we are setting a bad precedent here. Um, and it's two weeks away. What is two weeks? Why are we rushing this? Let's get the information. Let's find out about the square footage. Let's find out how many parking spaces there are. Let's find out a little bit more about the traffic circulation. And let's do this the right way. That's my opinion. If they want to sell paraphernalia, they can sell it and rock away.

I'm going to make a suggestion to the applicant and you don't have to take it because I we we will eventually go come to a motion if you don't take it. um if you can get us either that site plan or a lot of the information that we're looking for within the confines of the next two weeks and we can get you back on our our schedule. Um that that would be I think preferable to to the majority of the board um just for various people's comfort levels and and for the vote sake. um if if you're not amiable to that, I I understand, you know, you if you want to try to push forward and see where the vote lies, um the unfortunate circumstances that you may have to come back regardless. Um but I am going to throw that out there to you as as an option. Um and and I'll leave it to you to answer before we we make a motion.

One second.

Don't they have to come back anyway? They will have to come back for the final site plan and the final signage. Um, yes. The only thing a preliminary would do would allow them to start getting the restaurant ready, right? That's it. They wouldn't be able to open. They'd be able to do any renovations, move things around. You could if they get preliminary that you would not be able to stop them from being a restaurant going forward in my professional opinion, but I don't think that's a problem with anyone anyway. Your concerns are traffic flow, final site plan, layout. Uh so, as the chairperson uh raised,

if you can get that to us in two weeks, you can take care of everything. Well, actually, that begs the question, Dory, do would we be capable of putting them on the on the calendar? Okay. So, you we would be able to get you on the calendar in two weeks. I have a question. Sure. If Allan is not able to finish the site plan and I get um a letter from the health department stating that the septic is adequate, can we get them open if he's not able to get the site plan prepared in two weeks? If Allan is able to come here and testify that we we shouldn't have any spaces there are,

right? correct to be able to come and answer the question. Part of the problem is that he's not here to answer those questions. So, you know, we're we're missing too much information and to for for everybody to have a a a good idea and a good assessment of of how this is supposed to play out. Parking spot.

Yeah. But, Dr. Traffic flow is a problem because the lot is not laid out with arrows and space. It's conf it's as the public had mentioned public health safety and welfare is our and god forbid there is a car accident. So a final site plan normally shows the lanes dumpster location traffic flow curbing restriction of turns all those public health safety issues that we just don't know.

And we're not trying to delay you months. We're just we're we're saying I can I we we've confirmed that we can get you on the calendar in two weeks if we can either get Allen here to testify or have those that final, you know, site plan complete, then we can we can really get the ball rolling. Um but again, like I said, the the decision at this point is yours. I can put it to a motion. You let me know what you're willing to do. So it sounds like what you're really suggesting is really a continuence, right? Carry correct. Let's get it in two weeks and I'll like I said they've already been there, measured. He's met with the architect. So hopefully he's got a lot of it done and going. And if he's not ready, we would notify you. So you can carry two more weeks if

right. We can carry two more weeks or again if he's if he's willing to come and testify, that's again a totally different animal.

It's the there's a septic has certifications has a whole David has a whole world of its own and that's way above my pay grade. So, any thoughts on the septic, David? I think one of the things that Mr. Campbell can do is uh evaluate the septic, write a letter to the county health department, and get a concurrence letter from them. Allan, I'll talk to you about it. Okay. Yes. I'd have Allen call the county health department. Okay. So if we're amiable to continue to uh our next meeting which is the 17th 17th September 17th we we request that and consent to that. Yes. Thanks.

Okay. And there so board uh if we can get a vote on carrying this application to September 17th. There will be no additional notice. Uh so the public uh can know we're just carrying it without new notice. If someone would move that. I'll move that. Uh, according to stipulations as we put it together. I'll second. I'm sorry. Who is that? Second. Me. Thank you. Uh, Burggat Bogler. Yes. Janette Burke. Yes. Uh, Joan Ferman. Yes. Ernie Ragstead. Yes. Counciloman Marott. Mrs. Dariat. Yes. Brian Zimmerman. Yes. Christine Dunar. Yes. Uh, Vice Chairman Robert Otto. Yes. And Chairwoman Celeste.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Okay, I know under normal circumstances we wouldn't be doing any new business, but I think we should probably jump to I'm satis I'm satisfied the uh the board member role and powers. We've talked about that the last meeting and at the beginning we talked about that a little more. So I have nothing further to add on board member role and powers. I would say you can go uh lady chair to updates. Yeah, that that's that was my assessment. So um let's jump to updates and if we can keep them brief that would be great.

So we'll start with town council here at the last town council meeting we had uh we passed a lot of lot of uh a lot of bills and a lot of uh 19 uh laws. We passed a lot of we made a we made a lot of action and then we were trying to fill the zoning and plan zoning board and and uh we lost our quorum. So uh that's all I have to report. Okay. So we will jump to environmental.

Yeah. The environmental commission. Um I'll just make it short and say that we've achieved our uh sustainable New Jersey bronze certificate level once again. That's great. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. So, uh let's hit minor site plan subcommittee. Uh do you want to do master? You want to go this way and just do just go ahead.

Uh well, I was going to bear on that, but um I don't really want to get too specific, but just in general, we had our professional today. Uh, and that reminds me, we glossed over the other board business, but uh, last time I had brought up the billing question. I didn't know if you guys wanted to address it when we talk about fiscal responsibility and about under expenditures when we get to that.

Okay. Um, so yeah, otherwise, uh, just the minor site plan subcommittee is just still wrestling with, uh, tricky ordinances and, uh, hopefully we can improve the design standards. Okay. So, master plan subcommittee.

All right. Well, I have some unfortunate news. Um, Ron Day has uh decided to resign from the master plan subcommittee. He was a very valuable member. Uh, served last year as chair. Um, and we're going to definitely miss him. And, um, in with him leaving. Um, as chair, I'd like to, uh, appoint Rob Otto. Rob has expressed a lot of interest since, I don't know, months ago. Kept asking and asking if there's ever an opening. So, I'd like to put him in that spot, um, as the planning board member. And also, you know, we were talking a lot too about the master plan and the design standards and everything and thought it might be after last time's conversation, thought it might be a better place to do the design standards because we could in we could um have more people than just the planning board. We can have hopefully the zoning board. They've expressed a lot of interest. At the last zoning board meeting, they were bringing up um the need to have a subcommittee and they want a voice in it and they had a lot of issues with some of the applications. So um my suggestion is that we move it there.

So um and I appreciate that and and it it is said that that Ron will be uh he will be missed. Um, so just to address, I'm now chair of the master plan subcommittee. Um, and I would agree and I absolutely agree that um that Rob should join us. I I 100% agree on that.

Um because I think that Rob, you bring a lot of valuable knowledge. I really I really do appreciate the the conversations that we have and you're indispensable right now when it comes to to design standards, your pushing and your dedication. I truly appreciate that. Um so yes, if if you are willing to join us, we are willing to have you. Um, that having been said, uh, unfortunately, uh, I will be cancelling tomorrow night's meeting, um, until I have an opportunity to sit with Lindsay and kind of get up to speed on where we are. Um, you're at every single meeting. I'm sorry.

You're at every single meeting. You should be up to speed.

Well, the unfortunate circumstances, I have a bunch of questions that I wasn't allowed to talk to professionals prior to now. So, now that I have the opportunity to to sit down and and discuss certain things with Lindsay um and and kind of get up to speed, that would be uh that would be ideal. But yes, I will be rescheduling as soon as Lindsay and I have that conversation. Um it will likely maybe be a week or so, but I will let everybody know um when that gets rescheduled. Um, and on that note, unless there is anything else for updates, which I don't think there are, and in the interest of time, Rob, as much as I would love to have this conversation about expenditures, that I think is going to end up being a lengthy conversation. Um,

what are your thoughts? I don't I don't know that it has to be. I mean, we did the um the CBD uh decision quite quickly last time, even when we were kind of Okay. So, um I'm just curious if people wanted to weigh in. If we can do this in 10 minutes, two minutes, I don't um then you know, question first. Are you also chair of the minor site plan subcommittee now since you want to be chair of everything? Well, I I don't need to be, but seeing as though Rob is the chair of the minor site plan subcommittee and I was the chair of the master plan subcommittee. You were the chair of the master plan subcommittee because you were the chair of the board, says you.

Is that how it works? That is because the chair same thing. That's the exact same thing. So So just just to to expand. The egos are too much. I'm sorry. Oh my goodness. Joan, if you'd let me explain. I I don't care to hear it. I don't care. Okay. Well, you as chair had the discretion over subcommittees just like when Rob was chair, he had discretion over trying to put together a design standards subcommittee. Now I'm sitting in the seat and I have disc. Yes, it's your deus. We know. Don't cut me off with the knees. Ow. Joan,

I'm done. you're the the assertion of self-serving that was put out there for you and and I I fought for you and I tried to defend you. Ask Mark. Mark, I talked to you and I said, "Can we fix this?" And the fact that you're going to sit there and blame me. Let's be nice now. All right. Can we move on to expenditures? Because that's unfortunate to expend. All right. The board on the expenditures you have, the only expenditures are neglas. Uh and I think they're self-explanatory in your package. Uh they're in uh legal form and look proper to me. Thank you.

And uh well with that too was just the question if you guys wanted to discuss it if you thought it was a good idea or not. What had come up was just you know our professionals we talked about last time that uh Miss Knight I believe charges um when she is reviewing an applicant a developer like developer ABC she charges accordingly. Mr. Simmons does not do it that way for us but he has done it in the past for other uh townships. So my personal feeling um is that uh we're giving our time uh the staff are here. If if we were if taxpayers are paying for the professionals, my preference would be that we we would tackle design standards with them um in an open forum and we just get through that hard work and that would benefit every business um going forward. But we don't do it that way. So, um I just I just think that the the time Lindsay is getting paid to represent the applicants. And my feeling is that Mr. Simmons should also be getting paid to represent the applicants who if they weren't here trying to uh convince us of the worthiness of their application um we would be doing other stuff. So uh you know if if they had a conforming application we wouldn't need our professionals to review them is kind of where I'm coming from it. And if we're trying to be fiscally responsible, um, and we're hearing that, you know, uh, ratables, we need ratables and we, you know, need money, um, I kind of would lean towards, uh, put the onus on the

business owner to pay their fair share. And I understand that some might say, well, that's not businessfriendly. But we are here. We're giving our time. Uh, our professionals are here reviewing it. Um, and again, I think that if we can update all this other stuff, we can be very business friendly. Unfortunately, right now, again, we haven't updated the master plan quite some time. The design standards are all over the place. Um, so I don't know. I think what you're saying is, you know, time is money, too. So, yeah. Um, if we can if we can streamline the process by bringing the professionals in, that may be worth that money to those businesses to get things done quicker.

Well, yeah. And that's that's sorry and and that's exactly what we heard I think was even on minor site plan we have a very hard time making a determination within the confines of the the published code. So Mr. Simmons was good enough to come today to help us with kind of you know some questions that we had for an ongoing uh application with minor site. I think the issue we discussed the other meeting was that um having to um contract the no the fee that we uh the escro fee that that's charged need would need to be increased. So we need some help from you know with the ordinance with council and you know yeah I it's going to take a little bit of time. Well this we can't decide this this is just right this conversation.

Do you guys agree that this is a memo to the governing body to revisit this? I think that the conversation needs to be a little bit broader because I'm not exactly sure we have all of the information. Um, okay. So, from one standpoint, I mean, yes, I get your 100% get your right like that. Let let the applicant kind of kind of weigh in on on what's going on. From the other side of the coin, there is also, well, the professionals are here anyway. They're going to be here. They're here for our benefit. Well, we should use them then.

No, no, no. What I'm saying is they're they're here for our benefit. They're not here like the the applicant has brought their own professionals to represent them. Our professionals are not representing them. They're here to assert the documentation that they've already written and have already build them for. So that's kind of in a sense double dipping. I've heard that word before. So, I'm not exactly sure we have all of the information and I don't know if this

talking about just a minor sub no I'm talking about I'm talking about billing a as it as it pertains here because so what they were saying so what what was originally said was that Lindsay bills the applicant for her time when she's here but in essence Lindsay is here for our benefit to expand on the document that she wrote which she already charged the applicant for so Is her billing her time to the applicant an actual valid use since she's here to represent us or is that you see what I'm saying? There's there's there's a a gray line there. time here in this meeting should be us paying for it. the time but that

right and I think was committee we don't usually have the benefit of the professionals and to be able to have them um opine you know basically have them pay to have them there minor site plan subcommittee total totally different different animal because that has no budget and the fact that you know mechanism haven't done that yet let me ask if we didn't have applications here would the professionals be here to help walk us through the application. No. Uh yeah. Well, not walk us through specifically. You should be paying. That's why the customer here. All right. So, so we're not going to make a decision.

Yeah. If I just wanted said this wasn't going to get sent in. Let me use a a very tonight as an example. It's 10:30.

We spent about an hour and a half on each application. So we would bill each the professionals 1.5 on each application and a half an hour to the board on our additional discussion. That is that is one mechanism. The other mechanism my retainer is I'm paid per meeting a set fee. If I'm here from 7 to 8 I get the same number as I'm here 7 to 1:00 a.m. So that is the other mechanism. [Laughter] So, are you available until 1:00 a.m.? Is that what you're telling me?

I I have a practical question. What difference would it have made to you, Mr. Simmons, and you, Miss Knight, with the questions that I asked about the septic system or the sport uh with the taekwond do? What difference would it have made to the way that you answered me? Would I have gotten an answer or would I have like I think she's saying are you prejudiced to the board or what?

No, no, no. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking is what difference would it have made if you build the way that Rob is suggesting versus the way that you are building now currently which is that you are here to answer questions that us the the nonprofessionals I'm I'm I'm not an engineer and I'm not a planner what difference would it have made

actually uh I think Mr. Porro explained it the best from the standpoint that most boards that we that I go to uh in his example where assuming each applicant tonight used about an hour and a half worth of time. We would put their project number down hour and a half meeting. The next application an hour and a half meeting half hour or an hour whenever we get completed here tonight Sparta Planning Board general board business that's how we would divvy it up. Uh when I started coming here many many decades ago uh I was advised charge the meetings to the Sparta Planning Board and that's what we've done ever since. My answer to you on those questions would have been the same no matter what. Um the answer is not going to change and depending on how you folks would like it build divvied up or or not we can do either way. It's a matter of one entry on the computer tomorrow morning or exit entries depending on how many applications. It's not a problem for us. The only thing I I think I mentioned this at the last meeting. Uh, you may want to, and I know it's a separate board, but you may want to talk to the township manager and and the zoning board and make sure you're consistent between the two boards because there may be some applicants who have applications before both boards. And some applicant who's in that situation may say, well, how come at the planning board I pay the planning board, but at the zoning board, I pay myself or vice versa. And we had also brought up the potential of reviewing the contracts to make sure that there was nothing prohibited.

Exactly. And there wasn't. So I while I was briefly chair, I reviewed them. Um I I didn't see anything untoward. Um so I I think we could have moved forward on it, but I respect that uh it's early in the game and my hopes to kind of quickly get through some stuff uh can't happen. But I would just put it again another way which is if tonight's meeting were approaching you know a couple days ago and we had no applications my feeling is the meeting would have been cancelled and uh we would not have used our professionals. Uh alternatively you know if if we're billing for Mr. Simmons time uh no matter whether there's an application or not again I think it would be you know long-term short term it would be actually in the overall business community's best interest to say okay guys don't show up until 8:00 from 7 to 8 we're already we're paying the taxpayers are footing the bill then we should all just like have a discussion about design standards and updating things that we have seen with past applications, minor site plan applications, and say, how do we make this work going forward? And same with planner. So,

and and I just would like to say there's been a couple meetings in this past year, and I believe I called the the board chair lady and I said, you know, based on there not being applications and is mainly planning work and what have you, I really didn't think you needed me at that meeting, so I didn't come. Yep. And I was trying to save the township some money, right? Yep. So, so while you were while you were chair, I was

Rob, I went and spoke to Mr. Zep and he indicated that the reason that we that we seem to that Sparta seems to eat all the professional time for the for the developers is because he wants to be businessfriendly. and he had never heard of any other towns that allocated the time to the to the to the deposit or to the escrow. Now, I would did a little research on on just three uh using just three different uh AI uh functions and over 75% of the towns in New Jersey do bill specifically the developer for their time. And I I I ran out of the house today so I don't have that complete list of all the entities for Mr. up. But you know, some some 400 towns in this in this, you know, they instead of instead of them paying the bill for for your services, the developer does because the developer is getting the entire benefit of it.

So, I'm just last thing that I'll say is I'm not trying to be business unfriendly. I think that uh if it's properly communicated that the businesses would appreciate this as you know a good way to save them time and increase efficiency. Um and so you know it's a negligible amount of money Mr. Simmons. I mean, you know, an hour or two review of your time for something. It's, you know, not not I'm not diminishing your your hard one PE license. Um, but and probably all your myriad other licenses, but it's not a significant burden, I don't think, to an applicant. And, you know, they come here, they come here with lawyers that they pay, they come here with architects, plans, all this. What we're talking about is not a huge amount of money. Correct. We're trying to save the voters money

and that's what we should be doing protecting their money. The only other thing I I think you have to be careful of is and I've seen this in the past in other towns. Uh if you were going to switch it so that it charged the applicants escrow, you may have to bump up the escrow deposits.

Sure. That's what that's saying. One thing I've heard, not necessarily if someone comes in with a big major subdivision or a major site plan, but a a smaller business, if they think it's like refinancing a mortgage, if you think it's going to cost you $2,000, okay, I'll do it. And by the time you pay points and closing costs and everything else, it cost you $5,000. Well, they might have said, well, if we didn't know that, we wouldn't have done it. Well, it's better to know upfront so that they don't get that sticker shock later on. Not that it's going to be a monumental amount of money, but just so they know. Or if they get denied, sometimes they won't pay. Yeah, there you go.

Um, on that note, again, I don't think we're making a a decision on this tonight, and we're going to open it up to the public. Thank you. Um, Jenny Derek, I I would just ask that you reconsider cancelling tomorrow's meeting. I know it's less than 24 hours since then and I know me personally I have had to reorganize my schedule to accommodate the meeting. We didn't have one last month because there were other issues involved and so I would just ask that you maybe reconsider that because everybody has planned to have this to be at this meeting tomorrow and it's less than 24 hours and you know schedules have been accommodated. People are donating their time and uh

I I do and I appreciate all of that and I will endeavor to do my best. I I have to just let me see what I can I can get done. I appreciate it and I apologize. Can I make a motion to adjurnn? Okay. Voucher. Yes. Vouchers on me. So I Yes. Please. Neglers in your package. I said they conform with uh your requirements. No. Uh, two bills on neglia bills. I make a motion to approve neglia bills as presented. I second it. All in favor? I I

make a motion to adjourn. I'll second it. All in favor? I have one more quote for you, Joan. Let me protect you. Yeah. Yeah. You've used that one before. It's It's not a new one. Let us protect