Planning Commission, Cac & Pros - Regular Meeting

How about that? Good evening, members of the public, city staff, and commissioners. I will convene and call to order the January 15th regular meeting of the city of Sonoma Planning Commission. And if I could get a roll call, please. Commissioner Willers here. Commissioner O'Neal here. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins here. Commissioner Nent present. Vice Chair Wyrick present. Thank you. I'd like to point out that Commissioner Barnett and Chair Donbach are absent from tonight's meeting.

Thank you. So, a quick announcement for members of the public who are in attendance in regards to items 6.2 2 and 6.3 on tonight's agenda. Those matters will be continued to the February 19th regular planning commission meeting. So I would invite you to stay uh if you so wish, but those items will be continued to that date. Uh item 6.2 is the discussion of the general plan ad hoc committee comments. Uh and 6.3 is discussion on planning areas in the zoning code. Thank you. Outside of the changes I mentioned, are there any change proposed changes to tonight's agenda? Director Gates, do we need a motion to approve tonight's agenda?

Yes. Okay. Do I have a motion to approve the agenda as it appears? So moved. Second. Thank you. You can We don't need to do a roll call. You can just do an an I. All those in favor? I I. None opposed. All in favor. All right. If you please rise for the pledge of allegiance. And Mr. Ross, if you could lead us in the pledge, please. standy for all.

Thank you very much. All right, the first order of business on tonight's agenda is the selection of planning commission officers for the 2026 year. So at this time we will start with the selection process for the chair and uh are there any nominations for the role of chair for the year 2026? I would like to make a nomination vice chair for chair for the coming year.

Thank you for your nomination. Is there any public comment as to Commissioner O'Neal's nomination? Seeing none, I believe we need to take a vote. Any other nominations on the floor? Okay. Commissioner Willers, yes. Commissioner O'Neal, yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins, hi. Commissioner Nent, hi. and vice chair. I guess I'll say I thank you. Motion passes. Any commission comments? Seeing none. Thank you.

Oh, thank you for your vote of confidence. Okay. Next comes the selection of the position of vice chair for the year 2026 of the city of Soma Planning Commission. Are there any nominations for the role of vice chair? I'll make a nomination of Theres Nan for vice chair. Thank you for your nomination. Are there any members of the public that wish to comment on the uh item that relates to the selection of the vice chair of our commission? Does the commissioner Nent accept that nomination? I accept.

Okay. I think we need a vote. Commissioner Willers. Yes. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins. Hi. Commissioner Nent. I. And Chair Hyrick. I. Motion passes. Thank you. Any commission comments on that issue? Thank you both.

Thank you. Okay. We've come to the section of our tonight's agenda where members of the public can come and address the commission uh pertinent to matters that do not appear on tonight's agenda. Are there any members of the public wishing to make public comment on any matters that do not appear on tonight's agenda? Okay, seeing none, we'll move on to our consent calendar of the evening. And uh the first item on our consent calendar is item 4.1, receiving the minutes of the planning commission meeting of November 20th, 2025. So, you can make one motion um if the planning commission chooses to accept the cal the consent calendar and approve it as one motion. Um unless one of the commissioners wants to pull one of the items.

Thank you for the reminder, Director Gates. Is there move to approve the consent calendar? Second. Okay. Roll call, please. Commissioner Willers, yes. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Jenkins. Hi, Vice Chair Nent. I and Chair Wyrick. I The motion passes unanimously.

Great. Thank you. Moving right along to the public hearing. Item 5.1 of tonight's public hearing is discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve an extension of a use permit, exception to development code, loading standard, and reduction of a residential component, design review permit, and lot line adjustment. uh of the demolition of 13,963 square feet of existing structures for the construction of a 65,66q ft 62 guest room hotel, 80 seat restaurant and bar, spa and treatment rooms. Is there a staff report?

Yeah, we will. Sorry, we're having technical. Take your time. Good evening, commissioners. I'm associate planner Jake Dunn and I will be uh discussing the extension for the use permit uh of the hotel and eight residences at 117 135 and 153 West Napa. So, just to kind of give some background, the project entailed the demolition of about 13,963 square feet of existing structures on those three properties for the construction of a 65,66 foot uh 62 guest room hotel with an 80 seat restaurant and bar and then a spa with six treatment rooms, a raised swimming pool, 130 on-site parking spaces, and a 21,221 foot 8 unit residential building. So planning commission approved the project and the EIR on October 19th of 2023 and was appealed to the city council and the final project was approved with amendments to the conditions of approval by the city council on January 17th of 2024. Uh so in accordance with the findings for this extension, the applicant submitted an application for the extension on October 24th of 2025, which was more than 10 days before the expiration date for the permit. after reviewing the original conditions of approval. We found that the primary uh they would primarily be satisfied after the completion of the long line adjustment and during the building permit process. So the applicant provided further details regarding the extent of work that they uh that has been needed for them to achieve the

project goals and the applicant demonstrated good faith by applying for the extension on time and with the intention of moving forward with the project and submitting a proposal for a lot adjustment. The applicant has also shown an effort to initiate a building permit process to ensure that the work begins prior to the expiration of the extension. So staff's recommending plan commission approval of the extension for the new hotel and eight residences at 117, 135, and 153 West Napa. And we are available for any questions. And the applicant is here as well.

Thank you, Jacob. Does the applicant uh wish to address the commission this evening? I need to turn this on. Okay. Hi, my name is Eric Dau and I'm here representing the Soma Hotel Project. I just wanted to take the opportunity to introduce myself to the commission and um ask that you follow staff's recommendations and extend the cup. We've been doing a tremendous amount of work on the project. As you're as you're all aware, the the project was approved on the heels of COVID and like a lot of our daily lives, uh the hotel industry was hit particularly hard by the pandemic. Um capital investment for new projects all but dried up. I'm happy to report that the industry has rebounded and we've made tremendous progress um securing partners for the project and we're looking forward to announcing a strategic partnership here shortly. Uh, as Jacob mentioned, we've also been working with city staff to um advance other uh portions of the project. So, we have the lot line adjustment in process. We're looking forward to um submitting for the demolition permits once that's complete and then uh moving forward to submitting building and grading permits to the city with a goal of doing so by Q1 of this year. So, like to think take this opportunity also to thank staff for all their support and professionalism. Um, myself, the project architect, Michael Ross, and my colleague Bill Hooper are all here to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much.

Great. Thank you very much. Did any members of the commission have questions of staff or of the applicant? Okay,

go ahead, Commissioner O'Neal. Um, Jennifer, I'm wondering what impact, if any, the delay will have on the inloo housing fee. So, the fees regardless aren't going to be due until um if I remember correctly in the conditions of approval um at certificate of occupancy um and then a certain period of time after that there'll be some other additional payments similar to what we did with MacArthur Police. So, um again, it's all going to be based on the construction before we will start getting any payments.

Thank you. Are there any other questions from the commission for city staff or the applicant? Okay. Uh I would like at this point to open public comment on this matter. Are there any members of the public wishing to address the commission on this item? Okay, seeing none, I'll bring it back to the commission for any discussion. Any commissioners have any topics or issues they want to raise around this issue? Okay, Commissioner O'Neal comment.

Um, I think this project obviously has been very controversial and it's been around for a very long time. Um, and it's not the ideal project for anybody, for uh, those of us sitting here, for the developers. Um, so I'm going to put all that aside though because the reality is this project was approved and the last couple of years, not only as a result of COVID, but as of the increased interest rates that occurred over the last couple of years, um I think it would be um unfair of us to hold them uh to completing it on this schedule. And I think a one-year extension is a reasonable thing to grant. Thank you, Commissioner O'Neal. Are there any other commissioners who have comments? Okay, I will just briefly say that I will join in Commissioner O'Neal's thoughts. We're not here to relitigate this issue. Um, I believe the applicant has shown good cause to grant them one-year extension. On that note, is there a motion as to 5.1? Okay. I will make a motion to approve the extension for the use permit exception reduction of residential component design review and lot line adjustment for the development of a hotel and eight residences etc etc. Second

roll call please. Commissioner Willers. No. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Ogorman Jenkins. Hi. Vice Chair Nent. I. Chair Hyrick. I. The motion passes 4102.

Great. Thank you very much. Moving right along to item 5.2, two, which is the discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve a design review for the construction of a new two-story single family residence, including a recreational court in Pergola. Staff report, please.

Yes. So, the project planner, um, Diane, unfortunately, is ill and unable to present tonight. So, I am going to fill in for her. Um so this project is located on um Fourth Street East. It is on our rural residential zoning district and within our historic overlay. The planning area is in the northeast and it's around 6 acres. From the um front along Fourth Street East, you just see an existing gate that's there in a driveway. Um on each side of the driveway are two um houses. And on the next image, you can see that location. So, it is a flag lot. Um, in the true sense, there is a driveway that would get up into that lot in the back. And what you're seeing here, um, is going to be that new residence on that left corner, the bottom left corner. And then on the top right corner, we're going to talk about also is the proposed pickle ball court. So again, the dwelling that's in the um I would call the southwest corner is a two-story single family dwelling with 990 ft of living space above and a threecar garage on the base. The two accessory structures include the recreational court um or pickle ball court and a pergola. And then also this project is going to require a use permit to allow the 7 foot 6 in gate in the front setback area. The associated components of this project will also include landscaping grading. An easement for storm water will be required in favor of this property. also a storm drainage um

easement and then also a declaration of covenant for a sewer will also be required um to allow this project. So these are the images of the east and west elevations and then the north and south elevations. Again, this will not be visible from the public rideway. It is tucked back in a flag lot situation. Sorry, go back. It does meet all of the setback requirements. As discussed when we deal with flag lots, the setback is actually from the main portion of that lot and not from what I would call the pole of the flag. So, the 20 feet um or 30t back, it's a 30t front yard set back, 30 foot rear yard setback, and then a 50 foot combined sideyard setback. And in this case, the house is set at 25 ft. It's a 20 foot minimum. So, it would be 25 ft on each side would be the restrictive um setback moving forward with any other future house um or unit placed on this lot. So, the different materials and color board are going to be a metal roof in the gray um cable guard and rail system, wood stairs. There'll be only shield lighting and then stained wood siding. So again, the two accessory structures that we're going to talk about include the um pickle ball court and a pergola. So this is the location in relation to the neighboring residences here. Go back. Thank you. So I did do the nice red arrow. Um so this is the pickle ball court. The next little square that's adjacent to it is

the pergola. So the pickle ball court is about 30 by 64 feet. It would include a 4 foot netting around it and then it um is being proposed at a side step back of 11 ft. Um and then it's approximately 50 feet from adjacent properties to the south. The pergola is about 9 ft tall. just adjacent to the pickle ball court. Um based on this drawing, it it is appearing to be at the same elevation as the um pickle ball court itself. Also included is the gate that we talked about. This is what would be included a required use permit to allow that height. Um it's going to be um decorative lighting just um along its sides. It'll have a pedestrian grate and then it will um be wood and that's its location. It is set back from the neighboring properties um and from the front yard of those neighboring properties it would be 30 ft which would be consistent with the actual um front yard setback of those adjacent properties. So, for discussion tonight, there's been public comment that has been received um on mostly the pickle ball court itself. Um and um the concerns raised are in regards to noise um the grading. There's been some trees removed um that did kind of hide this um area from neighboring views. Um and so there's been change

obviously to area. Um we did red tag this work. Um it anything over 50 cubic yards does require a grading permit within our city and this would be more than that. Um, what I've put on this drawing on the right hand side is that red dash is an estimate location of where that front, rear, and sideyard setbacks are for a primary structure. When we talk about um accessory structures and or patios, which in some cases a pickle ball court is a flat patio that we've now painted um and put up a 4ft fence, the only restriction that we have per the code is in regards to it being allowed to be encroach into the setback if it's 6 in above finished grade. So in this case, they're looking to grade this lot and raise a portion of that pickle ball court so that it's level with the north side. So what you're seeing in this image, if you look on the south side, you see the topography lines really close together. That's where they've graded up and it's up to that level of 127 feet 9 in which is actually right if you go to the very back end of the pickle ball court that's at 128 ft. So what they've done is raised to that point to make it flat against that elevation line. Um and then their pickle, their actual pergola is within the allowed area to

have higher structures that wouldn't be um within that zone. So that is um the way that it looks from the neighbors um is what's drawn on the bottom. So again, it is a sloped lot at the base of the lot. So the south side is about 120 feet, sorry, 123 feet. And then at the top of the lot or the north side, we're at about 130 129. So oops, I'll go back. So if you were on the south side of the lot, that's where um this section is cut through is the south is the right side at six feet with a sixoot fence and then it builds up. So that's what you're looking at. Um Diane made this exhibit to kind of show how that lot that height difference would be from a 2023 ft, which is what the staff lot is. That makes sense. Okay. The other item um on your list for the use permit would be the gate. Um, and you know, the use permit is uh required when we modify a height of a fence in the front yard setback. Again, because it is a flag lot, it's an interesting case. So, it is meeting the 30-foot setback as if it was a um true lot versus a flag lot, but it still requires that use permit for that modification. So there are um design review findings required because it is a new primary structure um within our historic overlay zone. So these are the design review findings that need to be made for this project. So um that includes um

complying with policies and regulations in our ordinances. Um is the project consistent with the intent of our design standards? Is the project responding to the context of the adjacent developments and existing site conditions and does the proposed development um not be detrimental to the public health, safety and welfare? Next. And then the additional findings for historic overlay is will the project not impair historic character of adjacent historic resources? There are none. Um and if it complies with applicable guidelines um in this zone. The last That's fine. Um and [laughter] and then for fence and um modification findings, it's compatible design appearance of the physical characteristics of the site, height and orientation of the and location of the fence is proper and that the fence is a planned architectural feature. So the recommendedation is should planning commission determine that the findings can be met for design review and the use permit then stack recommends approval and a categoral exemption pursuant to section 15303 of the state sequenta guidelines which is a cast class 3 for new construction based on the findings and subject to the conditions of approval. So with that, staff is available to answer any questions and the applicant is also here.

Thank you for your staff report. Director Gates, there any members of the planning commission that have questions for the director based on her presentation? Commissioner Millers, um can you go to the photograph of the gate where the gate current gate is? Is is the proposed location in the same location? It's I believe a little forward. Yeah, that's my question is whether or not it's basically coming. I think it's in line. Can you go to the N to the drawing?

So, it's it looks like it's in front of that house of the existing house. Okay, let's go back to the photograph. Or maybe that maybe what would be helpful actually is the photo site plan and then back to the house.

Is that is that the one you're looking for? Well, that helps. And so what would be helpful next, I can see what the sideyard is of the adjacent house, but what would be helpful now is to see the aerial um image. [clears throat]

Yeah. So, I'm assuming that you can't really see it. I'm just trying to Oops. Go back. I'm trying to see where the existing one is relative to where the new If you look If you look right at the at the center line of the photo all the way to the left, right, that's the that's the home that Right. Yeah. And is that the existing gate right there? I think it is. It appears to be the way that's casting a shadow. Are they proposing to bring a fence line along that? property line um of the flag up to the gate,

right? So, my understanding is that it's 30 ft back from the property line, which would be closer based on this. It'd be closer to the street, right? We're just looking at the impact on the adjacent property. If the applicant would like to come forward to address that particular question, you're welcome. Hey everyone. Hi Viera.

Uh so the idea was that um the the fence would be brought forward and then yes a matching fence at whatever regular height was required would then return and go back to the existing fence there. Is there any consideration of putting the fence putting the gate where the existing gate is? I'm completely okay with that. I don't I don't I don't know how the decision just simply to maintain your neighbors access to the Yeah. of the openness of the driveway basically. Yeah. I think everybody's okay with that. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Commissioner Willers. Did you have any other questions?

Um yeah, I do. Um and it's regarding the pickle court. We've got a lot of um uh response related to primarily noise and [clears throat] the impact on the adjacent neighbors. Um I have two questions. One is what is our ability from a mitigation standpoint of noise if we were to allow this? Um, and then second, um, how much I I I really, um, I'm really not supportive of the grading in the current situation, the way that the property is currently graded to accept the pickle ball court. I think the idea of raising it up on a hill to get even higher than the um, fence line at the bottom of the hill is problematic to begin with. Um, so I I assume the commission has the ability to um make modifications to the grading plan in terms of the placement of the pick pickle ball court if we're going to allow it. Um, and then second um it would be helpful for me to know what kind of um beyond denying it, what kind of mitigation capabilities do we have regarding noise? Okay. Um there's a couple of different um options. So this development as a whole within the historic is within the historic overlay. The the trigger for this project to be discretionary is a design review um of the project. So in historic overlays, accessory structures and um primary structures are subject to discretion. Um so your findings that you're making are your

design review findings. And so your conditions of approval that you can make are to meet those findings for what's being proposed. So it's not necessarily the grading itself because grading doesn't trigger it, but it's the improvements upon

um because as as I was stating, if they I just built a a flat patio, it the way that we measure was finished grade, not existing grade. Um something we'll bring up later, but for this purpose, concerns have been raised around the height and then also the noise aspect. As far as noise, obviously we have a standard city coordinates around noise. I do understand found that the pickle ball itself as a sport has a different kind of noise impact. Um and and so if that is measured, let's say a neighbor complains about noise once it's installed and we go out and we measure that noise, then there could be other enforcement measures as in okay, you can't use pickable court if it they just can't work that way. Mitigation wise, there's other options. Um there, you know, the other fact that it's raised means noise is going to travel if you sink something or make it lower. Um if you put up sound walls, um I worked in a jurisdiction where we put sound walls around AC units, um just to keep that down um and the padding and things. However, when you're talking about playing a sport and you're this tall and the noise travels up and bounces and things, that's where the height of that wall would then be quite high. And so then you're looking at a blank wall um which has its own visual impacts. Um

the others are the the time there's no lights on this so it won't be used at night where we have the most uh ability for sound to travel and also our ambient noise level is lower um so we hear more at night. So these are things that are out there available. Um some limitations on where it is um itself moving it um changing its direction. There's there's there's things out there. Point of clarification that is all within our purview tonight.

Yes. if you feel that that is what's going to make findings um specifically around environment and also um public welfare. Any other questions? Commissioner additional [clears throat]

um it's just a point of procedure. If we were to deny this but approve the residence after that approval of the residence, which seems to be the trigger for the use permit tonight, um would anything stop them from putting the pickle ball court in at a later date? Um the I need to look at the definition again, but I think we consider that an accessory structure.

Um the gazebo is an accessory structure, but if it's less than 120 square feet, so these are where some of these triggers um come in that I would look I could look while you guys are talking. Okay. There any other questions from the commission? Commissioner, excuse me, Vice Chair Lent, can you clarify, and maybe this is more for the applicant, is there so the garage with the residence up above, is there a primary residence somewhere nearby? So, is this is this a an additional feel free to come forward?

Mike Morardi, one of the owners of the property. Yes. Uh, this parcel is 138th Street East. It is directly adjacent to 429 Brazil Street which is where uh in uh fall of 2024 uh we uh this commission approved our main house remodel there. U so so that is the main house and you know technically this is a separate parcel with a separate residence. Uh the way we think of it it's like a you know small second thing on the same property but technically it's a separate person. Another question for you. Um what is the purpose of having the raised um pickle ball um bet? I mean is there why why not put it at at grade?

So the um the property has quite a steep slope to it uh as as Jennifer Gates described. Uh the north end is significantly higher than the south end of the lot. And uh so the court as as we uh were building it, we we would have honestly if it was a level lot, we would love to have the court be level with the ground. Um since it's a very sloped lot, we have to do something. And um so uh the way we were having it was the north end of the lot is basically level with the ground. I don't know if it's precisely level, but close to. and then the south end therefore ends up being above ground level.

Is there is there any reason that the court and the pergola um can't be designed and erected within the building envelope? I'm looking at the red um you know the is it does it is it

within that rectangle? We didn't I don't know. Um I should mention that we um we did start we did start maybe about six months ago we did start work on the pickle ball court because at the time we were under the you know as a pickle ball court by itself I think does not require uh planning commission review and so we started that and then we were told no you need to stop because the property overall has got undergoing review. So we did stop. So there is a that's why there is a something there already. Um uh as for the location honestly uh you know one of the considerations was that if in the future I mean my wife and I um uh intend to make Soma um uh we intend to make this our primary residence. Um and um we've owned the property for 20 years and uh and and my wife has grew up in Sonoma. Um but uh someday uh and we don't have plan to make any changes to to the layout of this but part part of the idea was that if someday maybe 20 years from now somebody wanted to build a larger home on that lot then that center space where the red is would be available. Um another consideration was uh honestly was neighbors. Um we were trying to position it in a way that it would uh not be uh you know too close to to neighbors. Thank you.

Do any other commissioners have questions of staff for the applicant? I was going to get their questions and then allow the applicant to to make a presentation if they wanted to. Okay. Would the applicant like to come forward and make a a presentation? And if you just state your name, please. Thank you.

Uh, my name is Margaret Foutinos Morardi and I am Mike's wife. We're co-owners of the property. Um, good evening everyone. Thank you for putting us on the agenda tonight of tonight. We're happy to be here. Um, I've resided in Soma for many years and attending local schools. I come from a grape growing family where we grow Chardonnay and pino in both Sonoma and Napa. I manage our family vineyard in Napa. Um, Mike and I are land owners in Soma and Napa and my family's been in agriculture for 56 years. I'm a member of Sonoma Valley growers and venters and the Farm Bureau. As you know, we're the owners of the two lots. We refer to the front lot, Brazil Street, is the front lot and the fourth street as the back lot. In 2024, at the planning commission meeting to request permit for a front lot, Brazil at Brazil Street, I explained that our wish was to keep our residents and this project very Soma. Since I grew up here, uh we had the opportunity to build a two-story large house at Brazil Street and instead opted to remodel our 1500 square foot house with a small expansion for a total of 1,800 square ft. We received unanimous approval from the planning commission, some who called this request a no-brainer. Mike and I uh appreciated the willingness of the city to work with us on our requests and our mission to respect the integ in integrity of the neighborhood and we appreciated the city's help to that the city helped us with to provide it to so we could accomplish this for the backlog. We're employing the same philosophy. The

idea is two small houses for little impact on the two open spaces. The back lot has been vacant since we purchased it many years ago. Um our our single family dwelling is 900 square feet above the 12,200 square foot garage. Our family loves outdoor living and recreation and the beauty of our region. So, the idea is to have these two structures and the open spaces. I'm um Miss Gates, I'm glad you had that diagram of or and Diane that you put the diagram of the recreation court because that's useful to understand and I just wanted to speak to that. So, as Mike explained, there's a grade and we there were two options. We either had to build up on the south side of the grade or we had to dig a hole to come down. We chose not to dig the hole because that would have been more environmental impact on our lot and we would have had to dig way down. So that was the reason we did that. Um we also tucked it back into that corn corner and the idea was just to reduce the impact on the the neighboring parcels. We understand the concerns the neighbors have about the recreation court and we take the responsibility of our project seriously. Um Mike will speak next and we have Louvier our design build contractor that will dig into this a little bit more. But thank you very much for all your work. I know it's been a lot of work.

Thank you very much. Appreciate your comments. Hi, it's me again, Mike Morardi. Uh, okay. So, I do have some written notes, but I will jump around a little since I already spoke to you a minute ago. Uh, so as I said, just to briefly recap, the main property we on Brazil Street we bought in 2005 and this we call the back lot in 2008 and it has been vacant uh since that time. Uh, and um I I love I love Sonoma. I love the small town feel of Sonoma. I love the the the rural and semi-ural feel of the area. Um and um and Margaret does too. Uh and um and we uh and the um and the small remodel of the main house was part of that effort. And the uh and what we're doing with the back lot, we we we you know could have tried to build a larger home there. We had we never even considered that. We didn't want to do that. Um that's not uh you know most of the most of the back lot remodel is um gardens, vegetation, plants, things like that. Um uh and um and we have good relationships with our neighbors on Brazil Street and on Fourth Street East. Uh and we have actually discussed the remodel with some of them. Uh and I'm not aware of any objections from neighbors uh from those neighbors. Um, I am of course aware that uh there's been uh concerns from neighbors on Wilkins Way and Grieve Lane. Um uh but um but yeah, we we talked to our neighbors and uh and have talked to some of them about the pickle ball court. Um uh and like I said, I I have not heard any um objections to it. There's been concern, there's been questions from them. Um but

but no objections to it from those neighbors. Um I want to be clear about this is probably one of the most important parts. I want to be clear about how we're picturing using this court. I do love pickle ball. I play probably about uh three or four times a week. Um and I play at a lot of different places. I play it um at public uh parks in Soma and other nearby towns. And I play um sometimes at at private residences. Um, and um, and I like playing in different places. U, that's part of the fun of it for me socially. Uh, this is a single private backyard court intended for occasional use, uh, with our family and with our friends. Um, I think once or twice a week is realistic. I think knowing myself, there'll be many weeks when it's zero times a week. Um, when I just don't, you know, don't arrange a game. at the house. Um, let's see. So, I know some of the letters mentioned lighting that concern. It's not a lit court and we're obviously fine with a requirement that that there be no lighting at the court. Um, noise is an understandable concern for sure. Um, uh, and and the visibility of the court. So, the plan that was submitted does have uh three large olive trees directly to the south of the court. Uh I don't know if there's a the the the vegetation part wasn't in the presentation, I think, but there are three large olive trees just to the south of the court uh in the in the um plan. Uh which will certainly help with visibility. They grow they're big. They grow to 20 to 30 feet tall. So that will definitely help with visibility. Uh it may also help with noise. Um the surface of the court, the cheap way to do it is

is concrete. Um there's a more expensive uh surface that um that I want to do. Uh partly because it's cushioning as as I get older. It's it's cush it's easier on the body. Also um uh the person who's installing it says it does help reduce noise a little bit. I don't know how much, but but apparently it helps a little bit. Um uh and and also in terms of visibility along the fence line on the east side, like starting at the lower edge of the pickle ball court, the east side and the south side, uh the we would be willing to do more vegetation along there if it would help alleviate the neighbors concerns. Um like uh laurel bushes, which are I don't honestly I'm not really a plant person. And I don't know much about them, but my understanding is they're very dense and um and you know uh fast growing and could help or some other sort of vegetation along that line. Um if that would help everything and uh Lou did you have any

comments? Thank you.

Hello everybody again. Uh so I think what I'd like to say is that uh throughout this entire process of this project, it's always been a concern to make sure that we were as least impactful as possible uh with the building especially. Um we were very mindful that you know we were building a two-story building there and we wanted to make sure that you know we used a stained siding so that it blended away as much as possible. It sort of blends directly into what Steve and Thaly have in the background behind it, which we thought was a good idea. Um, when all of the ideas came about for the sports court, uh, we were very mindful of where we placed it. We intentionally put it in that location so that it was least impactful to the neighbors. And then we also did design the landscaping to uh, come in as a screen. I know there were some concerns for some of the neighbors that, you know, they're going to be looking directly at it. The court is raised up uh a few feet just to get level, but the intention is to put a hedge along that entire fence. So, the the raised part of that court will not be visible to anyone other than the Morardis. As a matter of fact, you you probably wouldn't even be able to see them playing on the court after the landscaping is matured. So, um we considered the light. Um I know that there's regulations on that but and the pergola as well. So you know the pergola is there as a shade structure. Uh there is no upward facing light there. There shouldn't be any you know obstruction um to any peace from the neighbors. So I just want to make sure everybody understands that we're trying to do the best that we can for everybody involved and we're definitely willing to make some concessions if there are some landscaping items that you know we need

to add in there. We're open to that, you know. Um, so that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you very much for your comments. Any members of the commission that have questions for staff or for the applicant? Commissioner O'Neal.

Um, first I would like to disclose that I have been to the site. Um, I didn't meet with any of you, but I think your site manager's name was Chris. Yeah. And I toured it prior to our December meeting. So, I have seen the site and I've seen a lot of the work is already done. Um, the pickle ball court at that point was it wasn't covered. It didn't have the surface on it, but it was graded. It was there on the edge of the fence overlooking Cherry Block Vineyard, which I don't know why you would block that view because that's the best view in Soma. And I personally would have put a house closer to that. Um, but my question is first of all, why does the fence need to be the gate need to be so high? I don't understand that. I'm wondering what the purpose is for that.

Do you mean the entry gate? The entry gate.

It I would love for you to respond. I just need you to respond on the microphone for the record. Thank you very much. The fence, we have a lot of deer there. They come down from the hill um on the other side of Brazil Street. We see them like daily and they come into our yard. We need a deer fence. So, does that mean the fence on the entire perimeter, including the back towards Cherry Block, would be 7 foot 6 in uh the deer can jump landscaping.

Okay. I I I don't think our intention is to put a solid fence along the that whole east side of the Is that what you're asking? Well, I my understanding is if if the purpose is to keep deer out, I want to know what's going to happen around the rest of the property. Well, if we need to keep deer out, we've we've had that fence. Do they only come to the front gate? They don't. We've had that same fence since we first purchased the property and we do not get deer from there. The deer don't hop over from that way. They come over through the front and through the side if we leave the gate open.

On the topic of the gate, what is the difference in height between the existing gate and the proposed gate? I don't know. I don't I don't know. The I don't know. The existing gate is is uh tall. Uh I mean it's if I had to guess, I would say the existing gate is, you know, it's around there around at least six and a half ft, maybe seven. I don't know. Um I'm sorry. I don't have the answer to that. That's okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I don't know if you want to remain. It might be easier to to so you don't have to keep coming up and down.

Any other questions? I have a couple. Okay, Director Gates, I just wanted some clarification on the 50 cubic yard trigger for the grading permit. So, is that to say that the city of Sonoma um or the building code requires a grading permit moving any amount of dirt over 50 yards regardless of what you intend to do with it? That's correct.

Okay. Um If it were to be measured from natural grade, if the if the the measurements uh heights of the proposed new structures were to be measured from natural grade, would they conform to our code or is that an unfair question? So if the code was written that a patio slab is 6 in above grade within our setbacks then it would be measured it would be at a a sloped patio or you would need to measure it from its smallest distance. So if it was 120 I think it's 125ish around this area. it was 125. That could be six inches above that. Basically, you're laying a concrete slab down on existing grade and then you would cut it because it can be below grade just can't be above grade. So, if you wanted a level surface, you would cut in.

Okay. So, is the is the pergola proposed to be sitting on top of a new grade? It is. Okay. But it's within the buildable area, okay? Not in our required setback area. Okay.

I just have a quick response on that one. So, the pergola is only very minimally raised. Most of the dropping of the lot happens on the far south three quarter side of the of pickle ball court. And so the lot stays kind of consistently flat around the upper portion through almost the exact middle of the lot and then really dips off towards that corner. And that's why all that that new bio retention area is placed in that spot too because that's where all the drainage goes. So I just want to that everybody understood that, you know, it's it's really kind of being over pronounced in that bottom corner, but if you're standing on the lot, you can see that most of the cord is only within 18 in of the regular

according to your grading plan. Uh, it's a foot. Okay. 12. It's Yeah, it's 0.9. It's nine inches above. Thank you for that. Madam Vice Chair, Commissioner O'Neal mentioned that she was on the site and that the work had either had begun and I don't know how far along. Is that is that problematic that that the work was we we did a stop work on the project when we found out about it

and that's when we started this process. reviewing it. So the other aspect of it is we do not allow so a pickable court, pergolas, things like that, those are considered accessory uses and accessory structures to the main use of a parcel which in this case would be residential. So it requires a house to be on site in order to have accessory type uses. And so this parcel um like we talked about is separate from and so it needs its own residence. So then therefore have other things. Um so that's why you see it all together and then um the building permit and things like that will come after that for the rest of this grading. So the picture that you see was from that time when the work was stopped. Um I have not been to the site. Um but this was a picture that was taken by Diane that day.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Are there any other questions of city staff or of the applicant? Okay. Um, thank you for your comments. Thank you for your reports. Yes. Um, if we may, we would love to be able to answer any questions or concerns at the end if people have questions. Thank you. I appreciate I appreciate that offer.

Okay. At this time, I'd like to open public comment on this matter. If you're interested in commenting on this item, please come forward. Uh don't forget to state your name. I won't be strict with the three limit uh speaking limit, but please try to keep your comments as concise as possible. And to members in the audience, if you agree or want to join with the in with the comments of the speaker, you can always raise your hand and that signals to uh the commission that you are in agreement. So, thank you.

Well, great. This is this is very generous. Three minutes. The council is of course only two minutes. So I'll speak fast. Uh Steve McCrosty, my wife Thy and I live on the home to the south of this property and we have discussed the project in detail with both the contractor and the owners and we are up to speed on what's going on with it in detail. And we've also I've also looked carefully at the documents on the on the city website for the uh the application. So my uh comments are about one technical issue and that's drainage. And that's not been talked about so far, but it's an important thing to us because we've dealt with lots of uh drainage sheet flow coming down the hill. As you're well aware, there's a lot of water that comes off in rainy season off the slope to the north of us and can really create an impact. And we've had to do a lot of mitigation on our own property to mitigate that. Luckily, there's a a big storm drain in an adjoining piece of property that is addressed in the in the plans. And I applaud the fact that there's a couple of engineered sumps that are or not sumps is probably not the right word in talking about this with Mike Morardi but anyway they are created structures to retrieve drain water with piping to direct the water ultimately should it ever be an issue to an overflow that goes into a storm drain that's already been in place for many years and we direct a lot of our own waste water our own our own flow from our home into that as well. So, I just want to be sure that's done. There's an easement required on neighboring property to be able to put that overflow pipe into the storm drain should there ever be an

instance where it's needed from this development. I've just got a feeling that with all this construction, there's going to be more water coming down that hill. So, I just want to be sure that that's adhered to and that it gets done. that easement is required to be able to put that overflow pipe in. Thanks. Thank you very much. Hello, my name is Erin McTagert. I'm speaking uh tonight on behalf of myself and my brother Alec McTagert. Hi Margaret. Hi Mike.

Hi Lou. Nice to meet you. Um, we are the property owners of the Brazil street lots that contain the culvert that was especially designed for the three Brazil street lots that are the view to the cherry block. Um, my brother and I have been in contact with a land use attorney and at this time I'm sorry it's coming right now but we are not granting the right to use that covert because as Mr. McGrathi stated there's a lot of water and the when that was designed uh when my dad had that designed it was for the lots that it drained directly south into it from Brazil street to the culvert. We have been very good neighbors uh in trying to make sure that remains patent for the um Wilking way neighbors because that's where the water is supposed to stop and go into that drain. Um good to know that you know other people are draining onto this area. Um, but as good neighbors, we can can talk about it. But as far as the drainage plan, as people have said, sump pumps can work wonders and it should not come onto our Brazil street lots. With climate change and the way the system was designed 30 years ago, roughly it we are not permitting it at this time. So, alternative drainage should be discussed. We wrote two letters uh to the planning commission. Diane had received it and sent a note back saying none of this would impact drainage onto our lots because eventually we'll have an east neighbor. Um so that uh landscaping would be awesome. Um, but we are super hyper concerned about other people's lots draining them onto the

Brazil empty lots that have their design already done for the drainage in particular. And and the pickle ball court, I mean, it all looks great and wonderful, but the pickle ball court also is going to sheet down water. There's no absorption there that I would know of. Um, I'm sure they can make materials for that, but that's a concern, too, because that's the southeast, as he as Lou said, um, that southeast corner of the lot drains towards our culvert and our property. So, um, our particular concern is that no other lots water goes to the Brazil street lot. So, we are not giving permission to use that covert at this time. So, so sorry, bad timing. We're trying to get a note to you, but uh so did I make myself clear? No access to that drainage uh for right now. Thank you.

Thank you for your comments. Good evening. My name is Barbara Ganley. I'm here representing my husband and I, Barry Ganley, and we have a number of concerns and comments. First of all, I really appreciate the design of the houses and the their desire to keep it um friendly with the uh the aesthetics of the neighborhood. Our concern about the botchi court, our property where you see the botchi, the pickle ball court on the back side, our property line is a is feet from that, 50 feet.

Our our property line is closer than that, but our um patio. Our living our outside living area is probably maybe 80 feet from the pickle ball court. And we're concerned about a few things. The noise because the the impact of the paddle and the ball. It's very repetitious, anxiety producing, and very hard to control the another person's use of something. it's on their property. Um, in the uh um Realtor magazine, it has been stated that pickle living near across the street or near a pickle ball court reduces your property values by 10 to 20%. And if it your property is more like two blocks away, it's still 5 to 10%. Um, another concern is um

I'd like to re reemphasize that if I can't you have u we we live southeast. We live southeast and and then there's houses on grav that are that are south. You look at those just that little loop of homes that are in this direct line, this elevated noise system that that um would be detrimental to anybody selling their home in the future because people don't want to move into an area where your backyard in is adjacent to a pickle ball court. If you haven't gone and seen a pickle ball court, go to MacArthur. It's a public recreation area and it's a constant batting and batting. Now, it's nice [clears throat] and we we look forward to our new neighbors. We we want them to move in. We have no problem with their home in Brazil. But the pickle ball court itself will cause us harm. You were talking about

Diane. You were talking about things that you wouldn't approve if they were detrimental to the property. If if it's known that people are going to lose property value of several hundred,000 per home and you have like 10 of these, that's a couple million dollars. How could you not say that's not detrimental. Anyway, the noise level is prohibited and it shouldn't be in a residential area

and I think that the uh Tuscano Collier property is actually closer to the pickle ball court than Fourth Street because we butt right up against it. Also, once you approve one pickle ball court, that sort of opens the door for many more. Um, we also think that it's a pickle ball court like a a park should be in a recreational area, please. And we respectfully request that you don't accept more applications or approve this application for a pickle ball court. And by the way, we have lived here 25 years moving in.

We spend a great deal of time outdoors as do all of our neighbors. And if you're playing on your pickle ball court, you're not going to be bothered by the noise. But when you quit and you want to go on your patio and you want to eat, you they won't hear the noise. We're down here entertaining, talking to our neighbors, sitting outside, and and we have an 1100 square foot outdoor patio system right there that will make it prohibitive for us to enjoy the peace and quiet. So I have to reag Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. Hi. Hi. Sit forward and state your name for the record, please.

I'm Donna Conne. I'm here with my husband Dave. We live right next to Barry and Barbara and we So, their house is here and our house is there and then the pickable carts right there and it's all open. Uh we have a whole big garden area, outdoor seating. We have a big um oak tree that's between the properties. And this is a very very very quiet neighborhood. You get up in the morning, you can hear the birds. I mean, we have a ton of birds. And that peace and quiet is gone with pickle ball. There's just no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It It's not just the pitch of the sound. It's that constant repetition. I play pickle ball. I love pickle ball, don't get me wrong. Um, but there's a there's a place for it and it's not in our backyards where all of our the immediate neighbors are going to be disrupted. Um, the thing about pickle ball is like Mr. already said, it's a social game. So there could be people coming over to the Mori Artis playing tournaments. You know that's what pickle ball people do. They get together and they have a you know a gathering and pickle ball can go on for hours and with it being raised it that's it. It there is no more peace and quiet in our neighborhood. The other thing is our upstairs we have um an upstairs master bedroom with its own balcony. When with the grade being up high like that, we are definitely instead of looking at beautiful trees

and gardens, we are looking straight down at a pickle ball cart and watching people play. And that would be our view. And that's all I have to say. And hopefully you will deny this. Thank you. Thank you very much for your comments. Please step forward and state your name.

Hello again. My name is Elena Berto Collier. [clears throat] I live at 155 Wilkin Way. My family's called Soma Home for 70 years and I've lived at my current residence since 1988. Several of my neighbors are here. Nice to meet you. For nearly four decades, we've enjoyed an exceptionally quiet neighborhood. Last month, I submitted the letter with photographs uh showing the pickle ball project visible from every single backside window of my home where the uh I thought the only resident, but now I hear that Donna also can see it with an extensive direct view. My house is the one in the far lower right hand corner where you see the pool. That cluster of trees is also our property. We see the pad they raised 5 feet above the ground as the foundation for the court. And the pad now aligns with the top of my fence six feet, which by the way, deer have jumped over twice and landed in the pool since I've lived on the property. So, they can leap over the fence. As I look out my kitchen window, I can see the top of it aligned with my fence. It's before surfacing. Fences and people are added on top of that. Tonight, I'd like to add something critical to my letter, and that's a little bit of science. In 2023, an acoustical firm conducted a study for the city of Centennial, Colorado. It was titled Pickleball Noise Impact Assessment and Abatement Planning. You don't have to read it. 77 pages. I read it for you. The report defines any unwanted no sound as noise and the human response to noise as annoyance. Pickle ball produces what is classified as an impulsive noise. A sharp repetitive sound at roughly a thousand cycles per second right in the center of human hearing where our ears are most sensitive. It grabs attention,

interrupts thought, and becomes extremely difficult to ignore. But the real problem is not just how pickle ball sounds, it's how far it carries. The EPA says noise above 55 dB interferes with daily life in residential settings. And you can see from the photo there's a lot of residences around this area. The consultants measured pickle ball noise at operating courts. They found levels of 55 65 to 80 dB at courtside, 70 dB within 100 ft, and above 55 dB for up to 500 ft north and south, and 260 ft east and 260 ft west. Courts are oriented north to south to reduce the sun glare, but that sends the highest noise impact towards homes located to the north and south. Based on these findings, Centennial banned courts within 250 ft of homes because science shows this land use is not compatible with residential living. Now consider our situation. Today I measured our backyard property line is 1515t away from their property line. We are 45 feet only from the south end of the court. The pickle ball court is effectively in our backyard, but the sound reaches many homes in the neighborhood. Sonoma's not Centennial, Colorado, but the laws of physics don't change. The draft Synoma noise element goal N1 aims to achieve noise compatible to preserve the quiet atmosphere of Soma and quality of life. It uses DPAs, DBAs to elevate, [clears throat] excuse me, to evaluate noise annoyance. And it establishes a residential daytime exterior noise limit in Soma of 50 dbas,

which it also says must be reduced by 5 DBAs for recurring impulsive noise, which is what pickle ball has. That lowers Soma's daily standard to 45 dBAs. If what I read is correct today, pickle ball and impulsive noise routinely measures 65 to 80 dbas even with quiet paddles. We respectfully urge you to apply this same science-based guidance in Soma. Protect recreation absolutely, but not at the expense of residents health, homes, and right to peace. Please deny this application before it becomes a larger community issue. Thank you. Thank you very much for your comments. Are there any other members of the public that wish to address the commission on this matter? Thank you. Please step forward and state your name.

My name is Craig Hensley. I live at 170 Wilin Way. [clears throat] I've had that residence for approximately 38 years. As has been stated by other neighbors who we get along fairly well, [laughter] uh I'm in agreement with what Elena has just said in terms of the noise. Uh it was mentioned that the new neighbors coming in want to be good neighbors. Uh I may have missed it and I apologize to them and to anyone else, but I wasn't contacted and I on the court. Okay. And then all of a sudden there's grading going on. I'm not sure how that occurred. Uh but again, all of a sudden someone comes to my door and says, "Do you realize there's going to be a pickle ball court there?" I'm somewhat familiar with athletic fields and athletic courts because I was the director of parks and recreation for the city of Pedmont in the East Bay. And I even put in baseball fields, tennis courts, and all that. I'm also aware that such as the city of Carmel, I can't recall the other ones, but it's my understanding that city carell has eliminated there will be no pickle ball courts in the entire city. The reason for that is because of the noise aspect. I would graciously ask that you all time to your convenience to come down. You can knock on my door. You can take a look at the property and really get a good handle on on the situation that has been brought to us tonight. The u [clears throat] one

other comment and to disagree, but and I understand they want a pickle ball court. I understand he thoroughly enjoys pickle ball courts. He goes all over and there's a social aspect of it. Uh, and then he also made a comment he probably would only play maybe two times a week. Hard to believe for if I love pickle ball, if I love tennis, I got a tennis court in my backyard. I'm going to play quite a bit. So, I just would reiterate what Elena has said with regards to noise, the travel distance. I've told my wife, I said, "If that pickle ball court goes in, when we sit in our backyard and we don't have the property line that Elena and Barry have and Dennis Field is not here, but he's right next to him three really right on that property line. I'm one or two house. I'm one house down from that." Uh my wife said, "You're kidding." I said, "No, we've played pickle ball court pickle ball." We know the sound and the travel and it's noisier at night. Well, we have nights in the summer and that's when we're out on our backyards just enjoying our neighbors and our friends on our back patio or our front patio. So, I just want to reiterate that I'm in support of not allowing pickable court. And prior to you making any decision, I would ask again to look at the lot and do your due diligence with regards to this issue that has hampered many cities in the Bay Area.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your comments. Any other members of the public like to come forward and address the commission on this matter?

Hi, I'm Jim. I live in live with Alina right next to the property. about 50 ft away. And we know that uh pictures can take care of a thousand words of something a little audio which I found. This is pickle ball in my backyard. This goes on for 20 minutes. We don't want to hear 20 minutes, but that's what it is. And this is about how close it would be. Enough said. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Any other members of the public wishing to come forward and address the commission on this matter?

Hello. Uh David Payne, we have the Gravity Property. I agree with what all our neighbors have said. Uh but I do want to add uh or emphasize the the water issue. Uh I don't remember when, but we had uh flooding coming down from that area. Our whole backyard flooded, went around, flooded our um lower part of our house, garage, carpets, pool room, things like that. So, um that did happen. And uh you know I think the houses above on Brazil where those um they were just recently sold a year or two ago and they had they demolished. I'm sure there's going to be houses built up there as well. So just more issues with water coming downhill. So thank you very much. Is there anyone else? Okay. Seeing none, I'll bring the discussion back to the commission for commissioner comments. Madame vice chair.

Thank you, chair. Uh, question for staff. Um, I'm racking my brain here trying to think of properties that are around maybe even the valley that have have installed pickle ball courts. I know of tennis courts that have been modified. Um, but have is this a precedent for us? Have we is has anybody been permitted to build a pickle ball ball court in city limits and what are those regulations around that?

Um, I am not aware of that. Only the conversion like you were stating at a couple of condominium complexes, um, which is where I've received my complaint from. Um, but those we don't Let's just say pickle ball is a new thing. Um, and our code is not that new. So, pickle ball doesn't even exist in our code. Um, we do have a a racket court section in our code, but it's more pertaining to lighting as well as fence height. Um, but that's really it. I one one minute.

Hang on. One minute. Yeah, I'll have to re reopen public comment. Was there one last thought that you had? Just one last thought. Okay. I will reopen public comment. Be sure to state your name and then go ahead. Go ahead. My name is Barbara Ganley. I live at 165 Wilky Way. My comment is that the city has regulated uh gas blowers, leaf blowers, and that has been very nice and it would be nice if we didn't have the pickle ball instead of wheat weed blowers. Yes.

Thank Thank you for that followup. I will close public comment again and bring it back to the commission for additional comments and consideration. Commissioner O'Neal. First of all, thank you neighbors. I so appreciate people getting involved and coming out. It's it's really what this is all about. This is your neighborhood and we need your input. And uh Vieira Fine Homes, I've seen the work you do. It's beautiful. I really um recommend that people have faith in the work that you're going to do and I appreciate that you will be very aware of what I call the Fourth Street Waterfall. Um, it's known for that crazy rain that comes down. I mean, when we were fighting Shock and Hill, that was a big issue. And I I just want to make sure that that's highlighted. And I do have faith in you as as a builder. I know that you do quality work. Um, I don't like the pickle ball court. I don't like that it's a non-permeable court surface. I don't like that it sits right there at Cherry Block where from the fourth street side you probably won't hear it because there'll be that structure in the way but from the Wilking way gra it's going to travel down Cherry Block you are going to hear it if you're on Geroke so that sound of the pickle ball I think it's just going to travel too far from that location so I just think it's not a reasonable location for a pickle ball court and I I've never played pickle ball court. I really want to. I appreciate that you want to play. Um, and I'd say get involved with your community and find an appropriate spot where you can build a pickle ball court and enjoy it. I think it's a great site for a botchi court. It's quiet. You have a lovely view of Cherry Block and it would be a very social setting. It's not pickle ball, but your neighbors won't have the same kind of pinging noise all the time from a botchi ball that they

would from a pickle ball court. and the frequency of play. I appreciate that you say that you wouldn't play that much, but the fact is the house can be sold and whoever buys it can then go do whatever they want to do. They could become a pickle ball instructor in their backyard. So, I think that that's what we have to be careful of. It's not what you're going to do and how you're going to do it, but once that use permit is granted and you're allowed to do that, we can't control what happens with it later. Um, I do think that this is an issue that we have to put on our residential zoning pickle ball courts because it is a big issue and I would be so upset if my neighbors put in a pickle ball court next to me. Um, because even if you have lots of regulations around it, people don't follow regulations. They just don't. They want to do what they want to do, especially when they've been drinking wine. So, I would avoid a pickle ball court in any residential location, but I think this site is absolutely beautiful. I think that you're going to build a beautiful structure. I think the gate I don't really care that it's 7 feet foot 6 in. I just don't understand that. So, that's what I was trying to get around is if you have a 7 foot 6 inch gate, but you have fences lower on the other side, I just don't know how that works. So, that was my questioning was like, what's the point of that? help me understand why we're doing that. Um, but I'd be in favor of the house. I'd be in favor of the pergola. I'd be in favor of this the large gate. I'm not in favor of the pickle ball court.

Thank you, Commissioner O'Neal. Any other Commissioner comments? Commissioner Gorman Chase.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, and again to Commissioner O'Neal's comments, I really appreciate everybody being here tonight. um and and providing their comments. We do appreciate comments from the public. It really helps inform our decisions. Um I want to note that I went down a pickleball rabbit hole when this item first came up and did a lot of research around decibel levels and noise. And I was not a proponent I was not on the planning commission at the time, nor was I involved, but I was not a proponent of the leaf blowing ordinance. I thought it was um rather silly at the time. We are very very sensitive to noise concerns in this community and in all the research I did um it would appear that the data that was provided is very consistent. I didn't read the report you cited but um was very very consistent with all of the research that I did that this would exceed not only our leaf blow decibel standards but our our daytime decibel standards. And so I I have been concerned about it. I'm very familiar with that community with the Wilky Way area and that whole area. I grew up here. I've been here 53 years almost. Um, and that was my bus route every day. So, I appreciate um the neighborhood and the quiet and peace of the neighborhood. And so, I I have been very concerned. I did not have concerns with the gate. Um, I in all of the review I did of the staff report, it seemed relatively consistent. So, I had no objections to the gate, no objections to the structure. Um, consistent with Commissioner O'Neal, also the the pergola. But I do think um we the city needs to contemplate um some discussion, some broader discussion about pickle ball. It has grown in popularity. I was tracking for some time what was going on in Carmel just out of general interest. So um at this point in time, I'm not prepared to support the pickle ball

court, but do commend you for all of your efforts to try to address the concerns through the design. Um, but I just think um there needs to be a broader discussion about how we place pickle ball courts and I'm concerned that this would establish a precedent if we were to approve it tonight. Thank you, Commissioner Orman Jenkins. Uh, Commissioner Willer's comments.

I do have a question for staff. Um, and it's relative to the the issue that was brought up um related to the storm water and drainage. Um ha has the storm water issue been reviewed in its current form? I understand that there's a letter out there, but um it meets our storm water standards, I assume.

So there is more work to do as we noted um in um briefly in the PowerPoint that there is an easement requirement and then you heard a comment today. That doesn't mean that there is not the potential um to catch all on site which is always the goal um for any new development is that we are going to catch um on the site. They have in the um attached to the staff report in the drawings you'll see um the draft storm water as well as hydrarology report. I saw that read it so I'm familiar with that.

Yeah. And so that is the base. Now in the conditions of approval you see that we will require additional information and um with that final grading plan as well. We'll need um to see more um around what that storm water plan. And so if that easement is a no then what you saw in the drawings where you saw the bio retention in the base and then the pipe out that would no longer be an option. So it would need to be redesigned.

Um so my comments related to the project I I'm fine with the design and placement of the the proposed residence. Um I'm fine with the height of the gate. I would prefer that it be placed in the location that currently is rather than brought forward in front of the neighbor's house. Um I'm not in favor of the um pickle ball court primarily because we do have a no noise ordinance and we're responsible for affectuating that noise or ordinance and not causing issues that need to be um essentially enforced. And so I do, you know, I I know personal experience I don't I would not want a pickle ball court in my backyard or within the distance of my backyard that this one is. Um, having played it, I know the noise related to it and it belongs in a place that's in my opinion a public setting. So um, I don't support the pickle ball court and and in relationship to the grading of the property. um that has been done. Um I would prefer that the grading that has been done that's altered the grade relatively significantly um be restored to what the natural grade was, which may also help with your um drainage issues. Those are my comments. Thank you. Any additional comments? I have a couple. Um, I will start by thanking the applicant, thanking the builder for their thoughtful design, for their um for their willingness to come and and their their apparent willingness to make concessions and for their uh their comments tonight. Also, uh would like to extend my thanks to the the neighborhood and the community for

coming and for participating in this process. I think it's very important and um like my colleagues up here have said it it helps to inform our decision- making and and how we proceed with uh with these issues. Um the the residential structure is not offensive in the least. In fact, it's very it's very attractive and I think it's it's very fitting for that lot and for the neighborhood and and blends quite well. Um, as far as the gate and any height concerns on the gate, I think it matches the the existing gate close enough. Fits in with the neighborhood character, uh, the setback is not offensive to me at all. Um, it's designed as as an integrated feature, and I don't think it dominates or overwhelms the site at all. Um, it beats fire and building codes, and it doesn't really impair the architectural integrity or or the uh the character of the zoning in that district. as to what seems to be the issue of the night is the uh the pickle ball court. So in terms of design review which is the lens through which we are evaluating this there are a set of findings that we need to make and um if if you look at the findings um finding C third finding is that the project responds appropriately to the context of the adjacent development as well as existing site conditions and environmental features. So I have a hard time getting past this finding um for three main reasons. The first of which is that the height and the massing when measured from the natural or what was the existing grade um are change everything. Um the proposed structures

read taller and they read more imposing than surrounding development. Um I think this affects both scale visually and perceived bulk um especially from adjacent properties. Um and I think there is a serious and compelling concern uh around noise. Um, another point that I have in my notes is that the design or the layout of of this pickle ball court sort of shifts the the impacts of it onto surrounding properties. Um, it increases the overlook. It increases noise transmission and and the visual dominance of of the court. Um, and I'm not sure that these are things that could be mitigated solely through um through landscaping or through um other conditions that we can apply if this was to be built as proposed. Um, it sort of externalizes those impacts onto neighbors and and on balance, it's hard for me to be able to make the finding um that this project responds appropriately to the context of the neighborhood. And I do have a precedent concern um namely in that if a finding of compatibility can be reached um or be achieved in spite of altering grade without prior approval, it sort of weakens the city's design standards and development code and the whole purpose of design review. Um, so with that said, I I'm not prepared to support the construction of a pickle ball court in spite of the fact that I love the sport very much and I have parents who love the sport very much. Um, but I would uh be strongly in favor of uh the approval of the the other proposed structures.

With that said, are there any final comments or analyses from members of the commission? Okay. Would we like to take a stab at a um motion in this case? Um so I'm going to be I'm going to break it into two pieces. Um, I'd like to make um the motion to approve the proposed um twotory single family residence um as well as the 7 foot6 um gate height exception or variance um for the subject property. Um, I will also make a motion to deny um the pickle ball court um based on design review findings C and D and not be able to make those um findings in our required findings. Um the pergola I believe is probably an accessory structure to the um pickle ball court, but the pergola I don't have any issue with it as long as it's within the setbacks as required. Okay. So it sounds like we have uh the first motion on the floor which would be the approval of the residential structure and the pergola as proposed. So on that motion, is there a second? Second.

Uh, roll call, please. Commissioner, sorry, just to clarify that that original motion did include the use permit for the gate. So, it's not just design review, but a use permit. Commissioner Williams, yes. Commissioner O'Neal, yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins, yes. And vice chair, I. And chair, I. The motion passes unanimously.

Okay. Uh the second motion on the floor is the denial of the design review for the narrow component of the application in the construction of the pickle ball court. Uh for that motion on the floor. Is there a second? A second. Roll call, please. Commissioner Willers. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Jenkins. Hi. Vice Chair Nent I. Chair Wick I. The motion passes unanimously.

Thank you to the applicants. We appreciate your time. Uh thank you to members of the public that came out tonight. We very much appreciate your time and your participation in this process. Thank you. And at this time I would call a five we'll call it a fivem minute recess. Thank you. Call it a fivem minute recess. um reconvene at 10 till 8. Thank you. Does this

Are you just Okay, we are back on the record in the regular city of Sonoma Planning Commission meeting of January 15th and we are moving on to item number 5.3 of the calendar discussion, consideration and possible action to approve sign permit for an illuminated sign on a replacement panel

on a monument sign at 540 West Napa Street. Staff report, please.

Good evening, commissioners. Again, Jacob Dunn, associate planner. So, I'll be talking about the uh new illuminated wall sign and uh replacement panel on the monument sign at 540 West Napa Street. The property is located in the West Napa Sonoma uh corridor. The propertyy's 14,200 ft and zone commercial. Everything around it is zoned commercial with a mixed pro uh property to the west. Uh the project's proposing one illuminated wall sign to advertise the business name which or extra mile uh which includes a backlit halo LED. It's also proposing two illuminated replacement panel signs on the existing monument sign that you see on the top right there. And that'll be on both sides. And then this gives you some sizing guides uh with eight it's about Is that

Yeah, 8 feet by 3 feet and then you have a sorry the two feet by one foot. So the property has a 200 foot uh frontage on West Napa Street. So the aggregate would be about 86 square feet and an additional 43 square feet is allowed due to the distance between the primary structure and the center of the line of the road. Uh the total area of the proposed signage is 42.2 2 ft and uh so it meets the aggregate. The proposed illuminated wall sign will be 25.2 square ft and the replacement panel is 3.4 square ft. So it complies with the illuminated sign standard for 27 square ft max. So in accordance with these sign permit findings, the proposal is consistent with the size and illumination standards that were found in the code. It's consistent with the intent of the code by proposing signage that doesn't negatively impact the surrounding character by maintaining the consistency with the existing signage and using minimal lighting. The signage is harmonious with the surrounding area by maintaining a small scale and uh with the existing signage and not expanding in a way that would obstruct the surrounding environment. So staff recommends planning commission approval of the sign permit to install the new and uh illuminated wall sign and replace panels on the monument sign at 540 West Napa Street in accordance with uh sequest section 15301 and 15311. If there's any questions staff's available and I believe this applicant is here as well.

Thank you associate planner done for your report. Are there any commissioners who have questions of staff? Would the applicant like to come forward

there? There's no requirement. who is the applicant on behalf of the deal. Thank you. I thought I carried enough, but it's all good. Anyways, this is a uh an a nationwide upgrade on the signage and and paint, but um right now we're just talking about the signage and um uh I mean I can go through a lot of things, but I don't think it's really necessary because uh you can see how much better the new signage actually is. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Do any commissioners have questions of staff of the applicant? Okay. At this time, I'll open public comment. Are there any members of the public who wish to address the commission on this agenda item? No. Seeing none, I'll close public comment, bring it back to the commission. Are there any comments or concerns or analyses that my colleagues on the commission would like to share? I have one question. We have four sign permits today. Is design review not doing this anymore? Design review struggles to find ques did not have corn. So we moved from two day Tuesday's meeting. So we have to do two jobs for double the salary. [laughter] Okay. Thank you.

Pizza and wine overtime. Okay. Any other commissioner comments? Okay. Is there a motion? I'll motion to approve a sign permit for new illuminated wall sign and replacement panel on a monument sign on a commercial property at 540 West Napa Street. I will second. I'm sorry. I'll defer. I will second. And roll call, please. Commissioner Willers. Yes. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins. I vice chair nent I chair I

the motion passes unanimously thank you very much for your patience this evening very knowledgeable for me I expect to see you in February I hope so [laughter] thank you very much okay moving down to item 5.4 four of the public hearing this evening. Discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve a sign permit for a new wall sign and monument sign in a residential zone at 615 Fifth Street West. Staff report, please.

So, as you said, this is a signed permit for a new wall sign and monument sign faces at 615 Fth Street West. Uh, the property is located in the Central West planning area. The property's 13,356 square feet in zone residential medium density and the property surrounding it are all residential uses as well. The project is proposing one wall sign with 6-in brown letters that will be stud mounted onto the prim primary street side of the building. Uh and it's also proposing two logo signs along with two facility name signs on an existing monument sign uh with external lighting. Uh you can't see it in the picture, but they would be facing directly at the and have covered is covered lighting. So the property has an 84 foot uh frontage on Fifth Street West. So the aggregate would be 39.6 ft would be allowed. The total area of proposed signage is 25.16 square ft. The illumination of the sign will be required to be compliant with standards found in the illuminated sign section and I'll get to that again in just a second. So to be in accordance with the per signed permit findings, the proposal is consistent with the signed standards in the aggre aggregate area of the sign ordinance. This it's consistent with the intent of the code by proposing signage uh that doesn't negatively impact its surrounding character by maintaining a simple design and in utilizing the space that's already available. It's harmonious with the surrounding area by maintaining a simple design and uh is intended for signage or sorry is not expanding in a way that would be obstructive to the other other neighboring properties. So staff's recommending planning commission approval for the sign permit to install a new wall sign in monument sign at 615th Street West. Uh something else I would ask the commission is to suggest a additional condition for lighting standards on this permit. I did not add that in the conditions approval. Uh so I'd ask that you add that there. The applicant is not with us tonight but uh

staff's available for any questions. Thank you very much. Associate Planner Dunn. Are there any questions of staff? Is there existing lighting there now? There you go. There is there's a there's lights that face the monument sign. I believe it's on both sides, but that face into the straight onto the monument signs the um kind of ground. So, and and like for like it was there was a a church in this building and a and another uh church has purchased it and is doing

that is correct. They've been approved for their zoning clearance for the use of a religious facility there. Uh they're just trying to get the signage. Thank you. Is the applicant present this evening? No. Okay. Uh yes, another question. Commissioner Millers. Um I just noticed in the photograph that the address is at the bottom of the sign and it doesn't appear to meet our current fire code requirements. Is that going to be an update? And where will that be placed? Um, I am sure that Trevor will be on it like a hot potato. Um, and it'll probably be up in the right hand corner where the old um JW sign was. Um, it probably be right there next to that entrance.

At the entrance. Okay. Yeah. I had the same question and I'm wondering has there been any progress on that? that requirement for this the address signs to be so large.

It's actually a building code requirement that they are that size. Um so um it's a matter of implementing that and they I do know they've gone around to some businesses and started that as well as requiring if it's a multi-tenant facility um new site location mapping and things like that. But as far as us working with them on the design of what that looks like, like our requirement that they're pen letters or something to that effect, no, we have not done that yet.

Any other questions of staff? Okay. This time, I'll open public comment on this matter and welcome any member of the public present who wishes to come and address the commission on this matter. Seeing none, I will close public comment. bring it back to the commission for thoughts, comments, concerns. Seeing none, is there a motion? Okay, I will make a motion to approve the new wall sign and monument sign at 615th Street West, including action to approve a categorical categorical exemption and add in that piece. Jacob, you got that taken care of in the um Okay.

All right, that's it. Okay, second. Roll call, please. Commissioner Willers, yes. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Jacen, hi. Chair, Vice Chair Nent, I. And Chair Wick, I. The motion passes unanimously.

Great. Thank you very much. Okay, moving on to item 5.5 of tonight's public hearing, discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve a sign permit. I see a trend for a new illuminated wall sign on a commercial property at 552 Broadway. Staff report, please. All right. So, this is for an eliminated wall sign at 552 Broadway. The property is located in the downtown district and the property is about 1,742 ft zone commercial surrounded by commercial. The project proposes one illuminated wall sign to advertise the business name which is

I hate to interrupt you, Jacob. Our um the screens on this half of the dis are not functional. I mean, how about

all three though? Yeah, they're all connected. Oh, and serial. Yeah.

So, it would probably be me. Yeah, just these three. We'll go off the record and call a fivem minute technical difficulty recess.

How to go?

Okay. Back back from recess, back on the record. Proceed. Associate planner done.

All righty. Um, so back to our uh we're looking at a illuminated wall sign that will be advertising the business name of Body Rock. The sign will feature a halo or side lit LED channel letter with black acrylic face. And this will be the only sign uh that's proposed. The property has a 36 uh has 36 feet of frontage on Broadway. So an aggregate of 20.4 square feet of signage is allowed. The total area of the proposed signage is 9.41 square ft. Uh interiorly illuminated signs were permitted shall not exceed 27 square feet. So this complies with that. The proposed illuminated wall sign um I think I have it incorrect there but it is it's actually 13.33 square feet. Uh 9.41 41 was incorrect. So in accordance with the sign permit findings, the propos proposal is consistent with the standards found in the sign ordinance and consistent with the intent of the code by proposing signage that does not negatively impact the surrounding character and the historic qualities of the area by maintaining a small size and using minimal lighting. The signage is harmonious with the surrounding area by proposing a small scale and uh using a single color and minimal hal halo lighting that won't obstruct a large portion of the existing wall. The signage will be limited to a small space in the wall above the main entrance and has minimal impact on the historic historical character of all the surrounding properties. Um, so staff is recommending a planning commission approval for the sign permit to install a new eliminated wall sign at 552 Broadway and I don't believe applicants here. So staff will be available for any questions.

Great. Thank you for that very thorough, detailed and highly complex staff report. Are there any questions of city staff by the commission? Okay. Um, with no questions, we will open public comment on this matter and welcome any members of the public wishing to come forward and address the commission on this item. Seeing none, I will close public comment and bring it back to the commission for commissioner comments. Are there [snorts] any commissioner comments? Seeing none, uh, is there a motion on the floor?

Go ahead. I I will make a motion. I'll make a motion to approve the new illuminated wall sign at 522 Broadway. Excuse me, at 552 Broadway. Not the one at 522 Broadway. We don't know what that one is. Um, is there a second? I'll second. Roll call, please. Commissioner Willers, yes. Commissioner O'Neal, yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins, I. Vice Chair Nent, I. Chair Wrick, I. The motion passes unanimously.

Great. Moving on to item 5.6 of the public hearing. discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve a sign permit and a variance for new window signage on a commercial property at 548 Broadway. Staff report, please.

All right, so this one is located right next door. Signed permit for new window signs at 548 Broadway. Property is located in downtown District as well. It's 894 square feet and commercial and surrounded by commercial land uses as well. The project proposes three window signs um if you were to separate them to advertise the business name, service information, the hours oper operation, and contact information. Uh these are going to be decorative decals or there's going to be decorative decals that are included at the bottom of the door there, but they're not considered commercial signage or part of branding for the business. So, they're not considered part of the sign. Uh a variance is being requested for this one particular because the total window area taken up by the signage is going to be 29 square feet. Um the standard window signage distinguishes a limit of 20 square 20 sorry 20% window area. So they're 9% over the standard. Um they're limited in terms of their window area because they only have these three doors. And so the property has 23 feet of frontage on Broadway. So they get an aggregate of 13.8 square feet of signage. And they're proposing 9.41 square feet. So they meet the aggregate sign area but they do not the percentage of window coverage. So, in accordance with the sign permit findings, this is uh consistent with the sign ordinance. It's consistent with the intent of the code by proposing signage that doesn't negatively impact the surrounding character and the signage is only limited to the windows and doesn't cause a visual impairment. The signage is limited to um like I said the signage is limited to the windows and it won't impose any style changes to the historic character of the structure itself or any of the historic character historic structures surrounding it. And to make the variance findings the subject park parcel is a duplex business building with limited space for placing signage which is why they located the signage on the windows. Um, and this is kind of limiting to their ability to advertise the business,

but they've chosen to limit it to the windows anyways. Um, if the applicant applied the standards to their proposed signage, it may limit their ability to advertise overall. Uh, the exception is only for 9% of the total window area and they still aim to be consistent with the surrounding area without impacting public health or welfare. This will give you kind of an idea of the site photo of the front of that building where there's the windows, those three doors, and then the rest of the building where there's limited area for signage. So, staff recommends planning commission approval of the sign permit and variance to install the new window signs at 548 Broadway. And this applicant is here for any questions as well as staff.

Uh, great. Before I call him up or give him the opportunity to come up, does uh the commission have any questions of staff based on his report? Can you just bring up the image of the signs proposed? Great. Are there any other questions? So the we're calling them windows, but it's they're are they is a door in the middle? So it's functioning as a door and then there's windows on each side. That is correct. Are you able to go back to the picture of the overall of the facade?

So, uh they would be within their rights um to put illuminated large much larger signs on the face of that facade, right? I suppose if they if if they complied with all the other st standards. Okay. So they're in a sense, you know, limiting the impact of signage by keeping it in a small glass door. Staff feels that way. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Those numerical address numbers are large. They're complying there.

Yes. Okay. Um would the applicant like to come forward and speak to it? Thank you. Thank you for your patience this evening. I know you've had a crash course in local civics, but yes, little flashes of parks and wreck as we go, you know. But, uh, my name is Alex Deo. I'm a co-owner and lead technician at Elevate Sonoma. We're going to be hyperbaric oxygen therapy center and red light bed center as well. Family-owned local Soma. I'm Paluma, but dad, sister, and mom are all in Soma. We'll allow it.

Yeah. Okay. And I just want to say if you have any questions or if you know, one day maybe the banner ahead would be uh something we'd want to do, but for right now, we just want to get those windows going and let people know we're open starting. We just opened January 5th. So, thanks for your time. If you don't mind, I'll leave some, you know, information for you guys to to see if you want to learn more about it. And uh thank you so much. Yeah, sure. Thank you very much. You could probably leave them, right? Yep. Exactly. Thank you very much for your comments. Do any uh members of the commission have questions of the applicant before he sits down? Yes. Not related to signs, [laughter] related to the services. We'll talk later. Yeah, please. I can stay after. So, thank you.

Okay, great. Thank you very much. Um, at this time, I will open it up to public comment. Any members of the public wishing to speak on the matter are welcome to come forward now. Okay, seeing none, close public comment. Bring it back to the commission for commissioner comments. Are there any commissioner comments? Commissioner Willers?

My only comment is I'd like to see the [snorts] signs. Um, you know, I realize this is a paste up graphic, but when the signs are actually applied to the windows, I'd like to see some form of alignment, whether it's the top of the signs or the QR code gets spread out to be the same bottom of the sign on the left hand side, just so it looks like it's more thoughtful than simply applied to the window. if you follow me. And just as a heads up, the yellow is that was drawn on by

No, I get it. But even the type with the type, the way that it just the only object on the sign is some form of organization of all of that type. So that it reads as if it's been thoughtfully applied rather than just

applied to the window wherever it landed. That's the way it feels in this in this photograph to me. Um, and it can be done. You know, you can align the top of the hyperbolic the left hand one can align that with the top of the other logo and then bring the QR code down to the bottom of the one that's on the left hand side and that'll give it some balance. So, thank you. Any other members of the commission wishing to speak on this topic? Yeah, I I will just I'll add that the uh the tenant who is the applicant in this case is a little disadvantaged uh when it comes to signing just because of the the facade of the building and to to to so much to say that I don't have a problem making the variance findings to uh to allow it to be uh approved as a as proposed. I don't

It's also set back. It's not right out on the There's a an entry kind of um five feet or whatever there. So, I think it's set back further. So, I'm good with it. Okay. Any other comments? Okay. Would anybody like to make a motion? Let's see. Where are we? Um I'll make a motion to approve the design review of an exterior remodel. No. Yeah. Duplex. Why not? You can approve them already. Yeah. Well, why not, right? Feeling good. Why don't we move it on?

Approve a sign permit and variance for new window signage of the commercial building located at 548 Broadway with the comments made appended. Right. Thank you. Is there a second to the motion on the floor? A second. Vice Chair Nent. Thank you very much and congratulations. Thank you for your time. Well, thank you, Commissioner. Not so fast. Yes. Commissioner O'Neal. Yes. Commissioner Gorman Jenkins. I vice chair. I. And Chair W. I.

The motion passes unanimously. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time this evening. I'm already fine. Good luck with your new business. Okay, last but certainly not least is item 5.7 of the public hearing this evening. Discussion, consideration, and possible action to approve a design review of an exterior remodel of a duplex in public view within the historic overlay at 21 Chase Street. Staff report, please.

All right. So we will be discussing the design review for the exterior unit model that's within the historic overlay at 21 Chase Street. Property is located in the Broadway corridor. The it is a 8,430 foot lot on a mixeduse zone. The property is surrounded by mixeduse properties as well. The project proposes an interior remodel of the duplex which includes a kitchen renovation, new bathrooms, laundry room um and relocated living spaces. The exterior will include a removal and construction of new entryways, uh new windows, and added condition space. This just gives you an idea of the north and south elevations. So, you have uh north on the left and south on the right with the existing at the top and the proposed at the bottom. You'll notice that there's a minor addition on the north elevation of 46 square feet to convert that covered patio, that dark uh gray spot in the center of the structure is a uh entryway currently and that will be closed off to make a conditioned space. The windows will be slightly enlarged and then a new door will be proposed for access from the kitchen to the front of the duplex. The south elevation will include a removal of the of a non-conforming structure. You'll see that small structure at the back of the house there. that will be removed and then a new rear sliding door and covered entry will be uh constructed as well as new windows placed where the uh previous uh non-conforming structure was. On the east elevation, there will be a removal and replacement of a covered entry and uh construction of two new doors and a modification to the windows by increasing their size. The west elevation will include the least amount of modifications and will just be a reduction of windows from 9 to six. And the windows will be approximately the same size but relocated. And this kind of gives you an idea of the floor plans for the inside of that

duplex which we talked about some of the changes that will be happening in there. Uh, one of the u one of the units is at the uh bottom end of that floor plan on the left and the second unit is at the top. There's a living space with a kitchen and a stairway that leads up to the second floor which is accessible for that other space. These are the materials that they will be using. It is a sorry uh stucco finish with oyster white color and a horizontal wood sighting with black uh that will be Sherman Williams black fox and then the exterior wall scones will be slack black and the entryways to the u the new covered entries will be uh slate gray. So the applicant doesn't propose any expansions to the existing duplex. So they're in conformance with the standards of the development code and we'll be increasing the rear setback actually by removing the non-conforming structure at the rear from uh 14 ft at the rear to being 20 ft. So, as a point of discussion for this property in particular, uh the project's located adjacent to Nathansson Creek and uh any project next to a creek or stream needs to be uh assessed for impacts on riparian habitat. And Chase Street Bridge underwent some reconstruction back in 2024 uh which identified the top bank for the Nathansson Creek. So that was utilized to identify the setback for this property. Uh which helps us inform um whether the work would be located inside or outside of that setback. And it looks like it all will be out located outside. Um but a condition was also added to require best management practices for reduction of sediment runoff into that creek for any construction activities. So in accordance with the findings, the proposed project complies with standards of development code and coordinates development on a small lot while protecting Soma Valley wershed

resources. The project will maintain the design of the existing residence without causing a significant impact and will not be expanding over a large footprint. The proposal will not be detrimental to the public or cause undue burden on that adjacent street uh creek. The project required a historic resource evaluation as well due to its age being over 45 years and it's also located in the historic overlay and the HRE found that the property is not eligible for listing on the California register and therefore is not considered a historic resource under SQA. The project complies with the guidelines set forth in chapter 19.42 and will not affect any applicable preservation plans or guidelines. So staff recommends planning commission approval of the design review permit to remodel the existing duplex at 21 Chase Street in accordance with the SQA section 15301. Staff is available for any questions and as well as the applicant.

Thank you for that expertly delivered staff report. Associate planner done. Does do any members of the commission have questions of city staff? Okay, seeing none, I see the applicant is in the audience. Would they like to come forward and address the commission, please uh just state your name for us? Thank you.

Good evening everybody. This is Beatrice Evangelist and I'm the designer for this project. Um so this project focus on the renovation of an existing duplex. intent is not to um change completely the character of the building but rather just to refresh it and clean it up as it's not uh have been renovated for years. Um the scope of work is intentionally modest. Overall the footprint of the building is basically uh maintained the same. It's not alterated. And the primary focus of the project is just to refresh and clarify the front facade through a selective infield, update materials and clear the entry uh definition while preserving the existing residential scale and presence of the building. So yeah um for the focus of of this project for me was just to define since it's a duplex it was born as a as one single family house and now it's a duplex so I wanted to define these two main entrances and like giving the coherence as now they are two different apartments so that's why the only work it's been made like clearly uh at the entrance point because I wanted to define just like a hierarchy or like just like that they are two units and that's I would say the main um focus on this project and the rest is I would define it just co cosmetic the facade right now is taco and it's like rather white and it's going to be a little bit more beige with a new like finish of taco the dormers were added later we're keeping it as is they our wood siding. Um, I just felt like they were popping a little bit from the

sides. So, I just wanted to muted them and like match a little bit like uh shingles. Um, so those are I think in my eyes the major uh change to the aesthetic of the building.

Great. Thank you very much. Do any members of the commission have questions for the applicant? Okay. Seeing none, I will open public comment. Do any members of the public wish to come and address the commission as to this agenda item? Okay. Seeing none, close public comment, bring it back to the commission. Any commissioners have comments. I think this is a great improvement to the building. Congratulations. And I'm and I'm happy that it's remaining the duplex or being converted to a duplex. Um, it's a nice project from the standpoint of an example of how a home that's relative in a that is a modest home that sits in a residential neighborhood can provide multiple units without any impact.

Very nice design changes as well. Thank you. Great. Any other comments? Um, Neil, mark this in your calendar. You got a compliment from Commissioner Willers. That's a big deal. He No, he's a hard critic and that's big that you got a compliment. So, take that. That's really important. Thank you. And I agree with him. I think this design is really lovely. You're just elevating the existing property. And I think the the design you've come up with is going to really enhance it. And for the people that live in those two units to have that pride of entry of their own home, I think this is really beautiful. Thank you. Any other comments? Just that we concur. Exactly. Concur.

I will join in those comments as well. It looks great. It's going to be great. Well done. Thank you. Okay. And thank you for waiting all night. Yeah. And thank you for your patience. We owe you a gift certificate at Mary's Pizza or something. I don't know. [snorts] Okay. Um on that note, is uh there a motion? Commissioner Millers. This time I'll make a motion. uh to approve the design review and of an exterior remodel of a duplex in the public view within the historic overlay at 21 Chase Street, including an act. Well, we already do that. So, is there a second? Second.

Roll call, please. Commissioner Willers, yes. Commissioner O'Neal, yes. Commissioner Oberman Jenkins, I. Vice Chair N. I. Chair Wick, I. The motion passes unanimously. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Thank you all. Have a good rest of your evening. Thank you for your patience.

Okay, moving down the list to items for discussion. Item 6.1, continuation of the study session from November 20th, the regular planning commission that occurred on that date to discuss amendments to an ordinance of the Snow Municipal Code related to signs. Staff report.

All right, commissioners. I think uh we're going to we're going to continue from where we were last time. Uh the last meeting when we had a discussion about this, we ended at the Sign program. Um I will go through starting from the temporary signs. We'll u we'll see how far we get and kind of give some ideas to what we what we want to see going forward. Um so taking a look at temporary signs, we'll start here. Um, so one of the things that one of the things that came up um is trying to determine whether temporary sign should be considered as part of the total square footage for all signs on a property. Um, it could be counted towards the freestanding sign allowance. Um or it could be something that is considered a separate um but it was something that came up because currently it is I believe I from what I remember is it is counted towards it. Um, and I'm trying to determine whether that's something that we should count because that means that when reviewing these projects and removing reviewing purpose for signage, we're now asking for, you know, extensive information about a temporary sign rather than just saying here's a standard size that's allowed for temporary signage and anyone can use that size. Um, so that's something that that came up. Um, something to kind of give an idea about is attachments to these signs as well. um like balloons and ribbons, whether those should be allowed. Um you know, you see those a lot on real estate signage. Um you see it for all kinds of different, you know, just fun in general, I guess, if a business would like to add that for awareness. Um

there's also information about time limitations on these signs. So A-frame and upright, um currently it states only during business hours. Type one is also only during business hours. Type two and three, which you can see on the sign itself on the images, it'll say which ones those are, uh, is a max period of 120 days. The banner is one 8 square foot banner for 120 days in residential or 115 square foot for 15 days, three times a year. um and one 45 square foot for 30 days and one for 120 days once a year. It's a little all over the place. So trying to distinguish how to treat each of these types of signs, temporary signage and you know if their time limits and whether you know if it's only if they need to be brought in every day or how that's treated. Um, in general for these temporary signs, you know, standard is always going to be you have to have clearance for walking paths. So, that'll just always be a requirement. Um, so that's not something I would consider too concerning in in regards to these. Um, and so talking about the sign types, um, these portable signs, they capture typical political and realer signage as well. Um, but there's also time limits that you that could be reflected for political signs or realator signs that could be added as their own separate standards or they could be kind of brought into temporary signage as a whole. Um, and I've seen it in other jurisdictions where they do specify political signage and they do specify real letter signage or they have it as combined. So, um, these are kind of the the topics I'm bringing up right now just for temporary signs and I'll I'll leave that open for discussion.

Jacob, as a matter of framing this discussion, I I and without the benefit of having seen your presentation or the rest of it, would it be easier to go for you to deliver your entire presentation and okay, you we'll go item topic by topic? It's probably easier topic by topic. Okay. Yeah. That way we can figure out how far we get with it because if I get through if I go through the rest of the ordinance, you know, makes sense. Yeah, makes sense. Okay. Thank is that is does that conclude what you have to say on the temporary

for temporary signs? Yeah. So, I'm kind of just looking at currently um you know the total square footage, whether it should be counted towards it or if it's going to be a standard for each type of sign. We'll have a size limitation for each one individually. Um it could be as simple as letting me know that one or the other. We want to choose those. Um whether we want to allow attachments to these or not. That can be something that you uh inform me on as well. And then um these time limitations and whether we should add a sign type for political and realer. Okay. Or if it should be part of temporary as a whole.

Understood. Would anybody like to jump in? Commissioner Willers? Um, I completely support standardizing the temporary signs, even to the point where we prescriptively say what the sign type and material is so that there's an option for a temporary sign, but we know what we're going to get. Um, and so I'm going to go by category. Um, first of all, the typical A-frame or street sign that advertises a business, you know, I understand the need for them from for businesses that don't front the plaza um because they're typically, in my understanding, typically limited in terms of their signage anyway because of um their lack of frontage for the most part. Um, so again, material type. Um, I prefer an A-frame and I prefer even though it's bigger and it takes up more space and volume than I do the wiggly up standing ones. And I think that we should just simply make it a board and a metal frame so that we don't have wood that's decaying and we any banged up and we don't have plastic that is plastic. Um, and then for the, you know, the typ whatever the typical A-frame dimensions are would could become the standard. Whether or not they get added into the signage requirement or not, I think we can have a discussion about that. My my take on it is it's more who can have it than not in a

way. And that's kind of difficult because it you let someone have it, you should be letting someone else have it from a speech standpoint. Um the political signs I thought we already had an about flu there there is. Yeah. In terms of time limitations, I think we should just stick with what's on the books. Um and those are, you know, do they have a maximum size right now or Yes. Yeah. I I'm I haven't reviewed it. Yeah. Re recently, so I don't remember.

So I I'm fine with that. I think if we limited the size and we've got a time restraint, we can let that be realer sign. And realer signs, I think, are also protected that you're allowed to put signs up just by law essentially to advertise. Um they're certainly not high. No, not typically. And we all get them Yeah. So, they're they're I was saying they're not they're um maybe two feet high

and they are plastic. Um and they are all um you know manufactured by the same company. So, all the brokerages use the same you're referring to A-frames, not the long street side A-frames. But it's the hummingbird ones. Have you seen them all over town? They're definitely different and they're in my opinion ugly. Um they're large. I don't know what the size of those is, but you know the ones I'm talking about, they're like all over Soma. Um and I don't see them take them down very frequently. That you know that that builder Denova, he could be producing those himself. Yeah.

So again, time limitations. um and location. I don't know what we you know I don't know enough about the state law related to really re you know temporary science for real estate um because I know that there are they are protected in a certain way but um I think we should define that in our ordinance via state law like we define everything else in terms of where they can be placed, how far away from they can be placed and how many can be placed. placed within the community. Um that's yeah I think from a material standpoint on both sides on the real estate signs because they are in essence generic to the industry um I don't really have an issue with the corner sign that is advertising an open house that comes and goes with the open house. Um, it's the business signs that are that get placed by everyone on the plaza that have basically the litter of the sidewalk. And and so in order to get that to be something that's more unified as a temporary sign, I think it would be beneficial to the business community as a whole. Um, so those are my comments on on this. Um, and timing wide attachments, I guess. Attachments, balloons on open house signs, but balloons on, you know, or wiggly guys or whatever. It's like why?

Yeah. Well, and that could be the case where, you know, it could be a choice of saying that standard temporary signs aren't eligible for balloons, but if you want to say it's okay for realers, then well, or we just say, you know, I think we should be consistent. Honestly, it's clearer. It's easier for you guys to enforce, right? Those are my comments. Personally, I would never put balloons on my sales. I I would say I think just in general I would go against the the attachments but also just the balloon factor. It's a hurts our turtles and our fish.

I'm gonna I'm gonna pull my climate commission group and devalues the well they can also be distracting the motorists and the pedestrians to safety issue with reflections from myar and other things. That yard sign type one is also a garage sale, right? That's where you're going to see the balloon or birthday party this way. And you know that's that's those types. I think there's a different Are you crying? No. [laughter] He really he really likes myar balloons.

He's because of all the work he does. [laughter] staring at screens for um the uh what I was going to say was the um the wiggly guys the twisty things that's a different type of sign that we've already said is not allowed.

Um so yard side type one would also be the garage yard type three um we do have a number like that that are the you know a new development goes in. This is this is kind of more in the new development construction side of things that I've been thinking about more. Like obviously it's not just hummingbirds A-frames but Hummingbird's actual sign and it's the same thing at Aliva. they still have their original sign and but then I've also seen there's been that property for sale across from Napa for ever and it's one of the giant real estate commercial signs. Um, that's the thing I'm not used to specifically seeing on a street like that is just the number of commercial for sale signs and that that size that I don't know about as far as standardization if that is something that we can limit.

Well, that's what I you know my understanding is that real estate signage is protected. Um there's there are state laws that guide it and whether and so I would ask the question what can we do and prescriptively go to what is allowed essentially.

I do sorry go ahead. I know that there are communities and and maybe um the fact that they have a homeowners association can can change that or where they do have a very homogeneous or uniformed um signage policy for real estate signs where they all have to be of the same color. Our home at in a country club at Lake Almanor they all have to be I don't know what the size is. It's small smaller than your average. I'm talking about this the type two signs. Um they're all have to be brown in color and it's very uniform and homogeneous. So the extent to which being in an HOA,

right? Yeah. So there must be some this is out of the city limits, but the ranch allows no uh uh realtor signs. You cannot you cannot you can't put a for sale sign in your on your property. Yeah. And there's a private if it's being if it's being um marketed, you know, for an open house or something, then you can you can put the signs up, but very much temporary and that's it has everything to do with the HOA.

Okay. Well, that gives me good direction. So, in terms of realer signage, I will look at state law and kind of get some guidance from that and then I'll be able to have probably a better. So, uh that kind of helps with that. In terms of the real estate signage, it sounds that the political signage is about the same. Um, making a separate policy for those and just being consistent as we can with state law. Um, and those are pretty standard. I think it's 60 days before an election, 15 days after an election, I think, is the standard. Um, I don't know that you can limit size or whether there's a number limitation, but that's something I'll I'll look into and consider as part of it. Um, so I think that covers these. Uh, is there any other questions or comments in regard to temporary signs? Um,

sorry, wrong. I I would like to see I I'm more concerned about limiting time than I am limiting construction materials of a temporary sign. Um, I understand Bill's point about um, consistency, but comparing the upright sign that wobbles a little bit versus the A-frame, I mean, to me, that's a little bit uh should be more of the sign owner's prerogative. Um, so maybe you govern the total area or the or the heights of those. Um, but I'm more concerned about the the time and whether or not they can just stake, you know, four square feet of public domain for their own advertising purposes. That bothers me.

Yeah. No, I think the business hour thing has to be in place. It's got to come and go, right? And is that in regard to even type one is what we're thinking for real sign if pos if that is something. I would say yes. Okay. It's like, you know, living in a neighborhood where um a certain developer signs are basically constant not you know they're there 247 basically

you're talking when you when you're saying type one or A-frame you're just talking about like the real openhouse signs right that we're hey we've got that's what you're talking about that's the as well as those business ones just come and go with business, right? Versus like my house is for sale. That's a different time frame because your house is listed for sale, right?

Um the next thing is banners. Um and you know people use them for grand openings frequently. Um, that's what we, I think, generally see them for. Um, when they're trying to get their sign permit and they're in the process of that, they put up a banner or they just put a bunch of new now open banners, grand opening banners. Um, currently,

I don't have anything here for us uh to look at. Um, but if you can just think of a few places around town that you know, I think uh Panda Express has a banner up um for their now open sign. Um, but they also have their normal signage as well. So there's a there's a couple different places um where you can think of I think even with the u hyperaric they they have a banner up at the moment and they will be changing that out once they get the the window signs on. So thinking about time frame for those banners and whether there should be size limits or because our current code does not distinguish size limits for banners. Um huh. Yeah. So, our current current code is it doesn't really have much limitation on banners besides time and the time is 45 days I believe. Um, so trying to take that into consideration of how many times can they put a banner up because banners don't only include grand openings, they also may include some kind of sale that's happening or some kind of flash sale or um an event that's going to happen there with the public or things like that. So that's why you see our current the draft ordinance kind of talks about allowing one 15 square foot for 15 days three times a year. And the reason it's doing that is because if they have some kind of event that happens there three times a year, they can put that up. So thinking about how do we regulate it and when do we when do we say a banner for grand openings is allowed to be for this long and it has to be this size or event banners can be this size and for this long. So that's something else to think about. I don't know if we or if you want me to go into depth with that.

Can you describe a banner? Are we talking about something long and vertical or It could be any which way they would like to place it, but yeah, it can be long vertical hanging like a fabric banner that's hanging off of something or I don't know that there's a specific definition that talks about material, but I mean we could say that, but I would say a banner could qualify as a you know, any kind of a material as long as it's not it's not mounted onto something in the sense that it has like a structural frame to it um is how I would distinguish a banner. It's just kind of tied up or pinned up. It's usually intended for temporary use. Typically intended,

right? Usually has grommets. It's usually a malleable soft kind of a material, vinyl or something. Yeah. Well, I'm all for the limiting the number of times and the time um to whatever seems reasonable, but um and and definitely the the size. Um

so in regard to that, how does this the current draft is saying 18 square foot for 120 days in residential areas or 115 square foot for 15 days three times a year? And on top of that would be allowed this is that's this is outside of residential sorry. So it's 18 square foot for 120 days in residential or outside of the residential it'd be 115 square foot for 15 days three times a year and they're also allowed 150 or 45 foot for 30 days and then and one for 120 days once a year. It's and that's why I brought this is because it's a little bit all over the place.

Honestly, a 120day banner that's not a temporary sign. That's a six month sign every half of a year, right? Because

theoretically every other six months you could hang a sign up. So, you know, I think banners should be my personal opinion, they should be limited to to truly temporary grand opening, you know, coming soon, those kinds of things or and you know, not a constant revolving door of additional signage on the building. Um, where does where do window signs come into play? Because the that that's another one of my Yeah. So, that'll be

pet peeves. So,

yeah. So, we have later in the code um or what I was going to do later on was get into the meat of all the general standards for each type of sign, which really gets into like the window area and total square footage and aggregate totals. Um, which are a little bit more set in stone as they are right now. It's I those were just going to be kind of presented to you as do you like the size that's proposed or do you think that it's too small or too big? Um I think at the moment the way that uh it was drafted was meant to be you know applicable for this area. So that was taken into account when when addressing it. So um bringing it to your attention is more of whether you like what was proposed or not uh for those. But if you fill that with the banner signs, we we should take a look at it from more of a limiting standpoint with saying that it should only go for grand openings and coming soon signs and then maybe less than much less than what it currently states um for like events then I can I can update it for that. That's the direction. Yeah.

It was is there any discussion of colors? Um, I do not have a discussion of colors with this. Should there be? That's already not allowed. Yeah. So, there is standards that specify like not allowed to have, you know, fluorescents or things that are gonna blind someone that's driving by or things like that. [laughter]

Nothing. Yeah. Reflecting at you. Um, so those are already in there. Um, but if there's other things that you feel that should be limited, then we can add those. But I think it sounds like we're good with this temporary sign section for now. Anybody else have anything to add on that? Okay.

Okay. So, one of the other sections is variances. Um the purposes of this is to provide a pathway for certain types of signage that may not meet the requirement uh meet the standards that you would find for like typical wall signs or freestanding signs. There's some images here that kind of give you an idea of that and how you go about measuring those because um something like the one that you see on the bottom left for Six Rivers Brewery, there's a there's a branding on that wall um and you know it's a curved branding. um I'm sure they can measure it out, but it's more unique in character and um is a little bit different. So, this is allowing for those options of like if they want to do something that's a little bit different. And the reason I bring this forward is because um you're going to have someone that's going to want to do a variance no matter what. And this is kind of giving the limit of how much of a variance do we want to allow. Do we want to have a percentage of increase based on based on um acreage or based on square footage of a property or how would we want to address a variance and how much how much larger can they expand over what's the general standard? What would get them through the permitting process as simple as possible? Um, something I've seen in other community is doing a section for um, what was the term for it? Um, you can call it unique signage or you could call it um, artistic signage, but they'll have a specific section that is for something that is like the spoon sign where it's [clears throat] maybe it goes over maybe it's it has different materials than what you would typically allow. Um, but that section would specify allowing a unique artistic design. Um, I've seen that and um, but

otherwise doing variances is another way of just being able to allow those artistic styles. So, I wanted to bring this forward as if we think about what kind of variance, do we want to try to base it on percentage? Do we want to base it on a total aggregate or a max number? Well, Six River Brewery is from Humble County, um, my previous jurisdiction. Um, and then a few of these are just from random places in California. These are spec specifically California though.

St. come up with a percent. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out whether a variance passes or so we'll have our general sign standards for area and square footage um as well as your aggregate and then uh whether we want to allow variances beyond that. I mean, you're going to have someone request a variance beyond the general standards. Well, I I think they should be able to request a variance, but I also think that it should be reviewed. So, right. That's

so currently or I think, sorry, I'd have to re-review what the proposal was, but you could have subjective standards that is based solely off of whether the planning commission feels that the variance should be allowed based on whatever they're seeing as presented, or you could have a variance that's set as a standard as we're only going to allow a variance to a max of this size. I don't really want to put a max on it if it's going to be reviewed because I think there's artistic people that can come up with something that might be very large but might be really well done. So I would prefer to just if there's a variance and it goes through the re review process that is subjective but it's signs are can we be subjective on a sign? we can be.

Okay.

Um and I also just want to reiterate I'm taking some of these comments based on uh the ad hoc and their comments. Um particularly the subjective nature of findings was presented as an issue by uh Commissioner Latimer. So I wanted to make sure that that was presented. You know, my comment is the center one, the spoons is I assume that it would probably in most cases be accepted as a variance to the size of a sign. The sign the sign company's sign probably would not [laughter] at least here. Um

but But they can, you know, I I don't know. My my feeling is they they could, you know, they could try. Okay. It's it's their investment in time. But I don't think that we should be, you know, I I honestly don't think that I I agree with um Commissioner O'Neal. I don't think we should set a limit on it. Let the expression happen and then let it be reviewed. All right. too many hypothetical hypothetical things or too nebulous and nuanced to try to come up with a I think a code that contemplates any future application. So I I think I think the answer here is to allow it to be subjective and yeah and I also think

you know I also think that if you don't want to come for review then follow the rules right exactly all right well acknowledging time we're at 857 um I think I have just this one here and then the LA after that I was just going to go into general science standard. So, if we want to talk a little bit about multiolor LEDs and all electronic signs, let me just take a quick poll of the commission. Can we do this last sign component or is there anybody who's needing to

as am I all right? So, the topics on this is going to be time limits, sizing, whether we're prohibiting these types of signs. These are two exact these are sorry these two images are exactly the type of signs that are named above. So multiolor LED is going to be your open sign there and then your electronic signs are those store LED signs. They move so you'll you'll see them move. Um items for consideration on this is whether there should be time limits about whether they're on at certain times or um and then their sizing how big they can be. um whether we're going to allow them. The another thing to consider is whether it should be part of the total window or wall area for signage. Currently, it's not listed in there as part of the window area. Um and then if this should be specific to zoning given commercial or mixed use only. Um and then whether it's allowed in the historic district or not.

I mean, I personally I think the types of signs that are pictured here fairly offensive. Um, but I I think of things like u like gas station prices, right? Like is it would that be included in or described as an LED? I was already gonna probably do that kind of separate because those do have state requirements for allowing the um the lighting on those. So, I'd have to separately address those.

And then I also think about signage like that which exists in front of the high school, right? They're scrolling banner and whether that may or may not be appropriate. Um, there I think it fits. Um, you know, schools a lot of times you see those scrolling banners on schools or other public buildings. You see them on religious facilities as well. We actually don't allow those at all right now. the scrolling. Um the fire house wanted to put that in to match the one they have in boys and I said no. Um so we don't allow that kind on even on our public buildings. Schools don't have to follow our rules. The district. Yeah.

Um so [laughter] our that's why a lot of schools you'll see like the big huge banners like when you go to Sonoma Market it's just that fence is just not Sonoma Market the Broadway market. it's just covered in banners and things like that. Like those are the types of rules that we're trying to get away from. I think it's more about do we want to continue to not allow the scrolling LED sign, which I do have a couple in town right now that I'm like, okay. Um it's the open

driving and they're bright. I would be personally inclined to to prohibit them, but I'm willing to entertain other opinions. Commissioner Willers, is it okay? And just to confirm, we're talking about the scrolling the scrolling electronic signs, I think. at the school.

The nuisance sign in our community from the school is the scoreboard LED sign that's illuminated illuminated 247 and it actually shines from where it is into the second floor of our house on First Street East. The football field LED sign. It's got to be what it is because otherwise I wouldn't be able to see it from the second floor and it's behind everything. Um is on constantly and it's super bright and big. It's on all the time.

It's kind of like the one on Arnold anyway. Okay. Okay. It sounds like Were there uh Amy, did you have something else? No, I just concur. I I I would prefer not to to continue to disallow any of these. I'm not I'm not a fan, particularly. Yeah, absolutely. All together.

So So what we're hearing then is no LED, the multicolor LED or electronic signs, but not even just the multicolor component of it, but a lit open sign. It sounds like we're going with the no throughout the city or are we just really focusing on our historic district? Yeah, for the open signs, I've seen some people here in the plaza have them. I would I would see a bar. I mean, I've seen bars with them, too. Well, I could see some that could be tastefully done like a nice neon sign or something. I was just telling him to bring up. But that's different than LED, right? Neon you could.

So my personal opinion is that the multiolor LED and electronic signs should not be allowed. And also, can we eliminate LED headlights on cars [laughter] in the city of Soma? That's a different body you need to harass with that. So yeah. Yeah. So, it sounds like the the guidance is that for all LED signs and electronic signs, we should probably just go ahead and prohibit them throughout the city. Is that correct? Unless I'm I'm not thinking of a tasteful application that fits well in its surroundings. I

could it be allowed with a variance. So, if there was somebody came forward with something really artistic and we liked, we could approve it, but otherwise it's not allowed. It would be considered an illuminated sign. Yeah. at that point because this is specific just to these like all these crazy multiolor LEDs. LEDs also kind of go into fact uh into neons because neon isn't always what it used to be. Now it's LED. So that would be kind of part of this

mission accomplished. Here we are talking about them. Well, then I will take that into account in the next uh draft of it. And then um and I'm it's sounding like with neon it's about the same, but we want to allow for some artistic freedom and variances when it comes to elimination and potentially neon. So, um, okay. So, the generic, we'll call these generic signs, right? You buy an open sign like this. So, those types of things for these because we the open sign is probably less than what our standard would be for a sign. However, it is illuminated. So, we're saying no for these. If you want to have an you can buy them at Costco. Yes. Um if you wanted to um install a um illuminated sign period, you could make that aspect regardless of what its purpose is and require that to come to commission for its review. And then that material and its brightness and all those aspects would then be reviewed by you. but not allow anything else. Does that make sense? And then we definitely wouldn't allow any scrolling period even if you were artistic.

Yeah. And on on top of that, it's because if you think about with the illuminated signs, most of the time the standards are there is that that it's got to be steady and it got to it cannot has to be static in nature. It can't blink. It's got to have the same color. It can't be like these tons of colors. Um, and also with these they're less from what I understand they're less you're you're not able to like reduce the the intensity of them. Whereas with other lights you would be able to reduce the intensity. So I think that's kind of why these ones are more that's why I put these on here is because I'm like these are more in your face and when you buy them they just are what they are. Um, but with an illumination for illuminated signs we can be more specific as it has to have a reduced uh brightness and things like that. I think in a lighting ordinance we could probably do holiday decorations. I think that's where you would find that.

That's religious expression, vice chair. Um, so Santa, those are not were we in in what you just said, Jennifer? Was that were were we discussing the idea that you could that it's possible to have lighted signage but with discretionary review? Is that is that what you're

um that's one I am hearing. Um because we want the opportunity for creative lighting, not which is a designed illuminated design, right? So, like you can design the new style neon um and things like that, which brings back a historic look, but these specific ones that he has up here that you can just buy at store are not the same. It's probably self- enforcing, too. If you're willing to come before the planning commission to fight for your Costco open sign, then be that as it may. Um, do you feel like you have the direction on that?

I think that gives me good direction for this section. And, uh, at this point, I think the next it I think we should probably continue for a next session, um, to discuss it further on in regard to just these general sign standards because that's when we'll get into a little bit more of the meat. Um, but I think At that time, I'll also be able to work on some of these changes and present those as well. Okay. I think the Thank you for for that. Yeah. Okay. Um items 6.2 and 6.3 were continued to the planning commission meeting of February 19th and uh we've moved on to director comments and announcements.

Thank you. Um so we had the community meeting last night to talk about land use um around the Sebastiani parcels and we staff will take that information. Um tomorrow we'll post what was provided by the different community members that participated. we had around 80 um and that stayed [laughter] um and then um also opened it up for others to participate in that process and then after that um we'll we've also was recorded so that'll be available as well. Um so you can watch it for those that aren't there. Um so that'll all be up by the end of the day tomorrow. We also um are having on the January 26 will be the city well sorry let's go step back January 21st don't forget we have a joint commission meeting so pros planning and climate action commission will be meeting to talk about the um tree canopy study as well as the tree inventory. So that is that meeting on the 21st that agend 21st

next Wednesday. Yep. Next Wednesday. Um at six o'clock joint meeting in the EOC or in these chambers

right here. Um and then we'll post that one tomorrow, that agenda with those reports. Um Jacob will be giving the presentation. Um, and Dave John's, our new parks director, will present on the next steps because a lot of that will fall in kind of more his area with some of the activities that we'll be doing over the next calendar year. The um then on January 26 is city council. At that meeting, um they'll be doing the adoption of the um housing element ordinances that you had recommended for adoption and then they introduced in December. Um I did end up getting a letter from HCD in December saying January 15th is the deadline for the uh actual ordinances. Um but we're right there. It's fine. [laughter]

[snorts]

Um, it's right there. Um, I already told them that we introduced it. So, and I gave it to them and they still haven't said anything. So, um, if you're listening, I tried. Um, and then no, there's steps to take before they would actually determine our housing element to be non-compliant. um the threat was there but um we've done the effort to get that specific ordinance adopted um and it's on path to be adopted. The um other aspect is on January 30th is goal setting for the city council. And so they'll set their goals on that Friday afternoon at the community center after which um they will adopt them and we will update our work plan um and talk about our work plan probably in March. I think February is going to be pretty meaty with the land use element discussion um and the feedback from the Sebastiani section and then some other topics around the general plan but also some zoning code updates that we're going to need to do with the general plan and just to get that initial direction um on those items. So that kind of brings us to the next meeting in February. So that's what's going on over in our world.

Great. Thank you for your comments. Commissioner reports and comments.

Seeing none, do we have a motion to adorn? Let it be. Thank you everyone. I was going to say