Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

[music] Heat. [music] [music] [music] Hey. Hey. Hey. Heat. Heat. Good afternoon everybody. This is the planning and zoning commission of the city of Sakuro, Texas. It is January 6, 2026. Um 5:31 p.m. We call this meeting to order.

Thank you. Item number one, call to order. I'm sorry. Item number two, establishment of curl. Andrew Royos here. David Estada here. Julie Dominguez absent. Oswaldo Resa here. Yolanda Rodriguez We have a quum with four commissioners present. Item number three, open forum. Alfredo, do we have anyone that would like to speak? Not at the moment. Thank you. Item number item number four, consent agenda. Do I have a motion? Make a motion. I second.

I have a motion made by Andra Royo, second by Yolanda Rodriguez to approve. All those in favor of the motion. I. Any naysay? Any obstain? Motion carried. Item regular agenda item number five public hearing for a proposed amendment to the city of Sakuro's master plan and reszoning of track 12- A-L block 2 Sakuro grant located near Bowman Road Sakuro Texas from A1 [snorts] agricultural to R2 medium density residential to allow for development of multif family residential lots. Mr. Royos. Good

afternoon. We will open public hearing at 5:32. We have nobody that would like to speak. We will close close public hearing at 5:32. Thank you. Item number six, consider and take action on take consider and take action for the proposed amendment to the city of Sakuro's master plan and reszoning of track 12 block 2 Sakuro grant located near Belleman Road Sakuro, Texas from A1 agricultural to R2 medium density residential to allow for the development of multifamily residential lots. Rodriguez.

Thank you, Miriam. Good evening, chairman, commissioners. This is Judah Rodriguez, planner with the city of Sakoro. We'll continue with the next item on the agenda, item number six, and this is a resoning request for a property near the Bowman Road. So, we have some general information on this request. for legal description is track 12 A1 block 2 Sakoro grant property owner is clean land holding company LLC as the representative Cleanland Holding Company LLC the property area is 21.35 acres. Current zoning A1 agriculture current land use vacant future land used urban residential. Summary for this request, the applicant is requesting and resoning for a property from A1 agriculture to R2 medium density residential to allow for the development of multifamily residential lots. and the staff recommend recommendation. It's an approval for this request. Next, please.

The next page uh shows the location. Uh the property the subject properties outline in yellow and the green shading denotes the A1 which is a agriculture zoning district. Next please. This is followed by the future line use map which designates the subject property as urban residential. Then we have an aerial image. Next please an aerial image of the property. On the next page, we have the public notice map highlighting the area within the 200 ft uh of the property that was notified as required by law regarding the proposed resoning followed by the notification letters. Next one in English and Spanish that were sent to residents within those 200 feet around um no support has been received by any any means. One opposition letter was received this morning and a copy has been provided to you commissioners. Those are the public letters in English and Spanish. And finally, we have the site plan that was presented by the applicant showing the highlighting um proposed resoning area with a bold dash outline to be presented to you as for uh proposed resoning approval. Once again, this is request for approval of reszoning property from A1 agriculture to R2 medium density residential to allow for the development

of multi-family residential lots at this time staff and the applicant Mr. Escobar is here and now available to answer any question you might have. Thank you. I don't know if there's something to help me because I didn't put my hearing aids on. Do you have any questions for

um so we just got this letter and we're reading I'm kind of reading it just going through it. Um If I could answer most of the things on the letters, it's fairly simple. Okay, number one, he talks about traffic.

On the contrary, traffic will be alleviated because from the United States, if you see the drawing, we've already talked to the irrigation district. So, we're going to bring that road all the way across and put it on Bowman. Bowman is a street we're taking all the way to I 10. So, it's a five lane road. So, instead of going back to Horizon Boulevard through North Loop. Now they'll be able to come directly to Bowman Road and go straight out to the interstate. So that'll alleviate the traffic. The other thing he mentions in his letter is the water tables contaminated. We have no intention of drilling wells or doing anything to the groundwater. Everything we're doing is through the lower valley water. So anything that's built there will have water through the district. No ground water will be used. Okay. Number three, he says he's lived there a long time, so he ought to know it's a beautiful area. So there's a lot of people wanting to come in there and live. And we've already resoneed the commercial area. So this is 21 acres that remain in between the United States and and the commercial area and then the new sub all the permits are already there. All the compensation for the irrigation district already there be more connectivity we're bringing water to a lot of people that are basically landlocked we're bringing entrances to services I really see anything that looks detrimental to me, but I will answer anything you want.

So, this is going to be connected to the one that's being built right now and it's going to go all the way up to 10, correct? Yes, sir.

Have we seen a a master plan from from North Loop all the way to it?

I don't know if if you've got to see it [clears throat] because We only brought the commercial and we've only brought the pieces. We've been working with the city. We've been working about we have we've been working about the size of the road and the orientation everything else. We've been working with the county because what we want to do is when we get to I if you're familiar with the area there's an underass on the freeway and when we were going to come out it was very close to the problem that might cause a lot of But you have a road that's already basically called mountain park only. So we're working with a county to connect to that road. So you can come and basically take the underass. So you wouldn't have to drive all the way to all the way to Clinton. So the people that live in that area, all the people up and they go, they go underneath the freeway if they want to go. If they want to go, then they can keep taking all the way and they'll come out the other side of the so these 20 something acres We're reszoning to the request is to go to R2, right? But at this point, we don't see a flat of for these 20 something acres, right? And so my question is like what what size lots are you looking at developing there? Are you looking

what size lots are you looking to develop on these in that area? What we're looking for because it's part of the commercial, we're looking more for an apartment complex. Apartment complexes. So what would happen if you We've already been circle for that corner and then other people and then there will be an apartment area two apartment areas and then the resident I'm sorry I don't have that big master but but all that traffic that'll be fourth all the traffic for there will be directed to that new stream

right it's not only going to alleviate that little Everybody instead of going why would you go down to Horizon if you got a straight shot to the freeway. So everybody lives around Bowman all those new neighborhoods everybody lives on all that area they'll go straight down the new road. So it's going to alleviate a lot of traffic. Okay. Um do you do you anticipate smaller lots like for duplexes that area? No. It's all larger complexes. That area is going to be apartments and commercial. Apartments and commercial.

I just have a question from the letter of the who is the opposition? He is an attorney. Okay. So, but it's his personal It just so happens that he is an attorney. So, he is an attorney. So, he lives in this area. Okay. Okay.

And and if you read the letter closely, he's not really making he starts the letter by saying, "I'm not opposed to development. I have these concerns. I have a concern about traffic, about the groundwater, about this. And I think all the concerns I mean, we have answers for everything right now. We've worked on it for a while. Towards the towards the end of the letter, he makes a reference to seriously considering like filing a lawsuit with the city of Sakoro or against the city of Well, if you if you ever met Mr. I know of him. Okay. He wants to file a lawsuit for everything.

Yeah. I I've known him for a long long time. bought property from him before. Uh he tried to sell me some some contaminated property before. Uh I'm just saying he's a lawyer. So lawyers always leave the door open for whatever.

So I have a question. So Lori, when um when Clint was first anticipated to develop the property, do those letters go out at that time and how long because I know this is not the first time that I see this in the works. I know we had already talked about it before or am I wrong. Was this not already once a pull up? So you have already seen and approved and council has approved the resent subdivision. This is a good map. It was first adjacent to the comp that was res.

Recently we have seen the request for the area across from the huge development with residential lots, commercial lots that Mr. as far as one route taking up and then the other to the right area. So this new property is close to that area. So why looks familiar? This is the first step in developing that When when will you or when when will we see the the replat on this? When will it come through? It's a yeah a plan.

You you'll see the plat for this property and everything for phase one of the residential. You'll see it in the next 30 to 40 days. Okay. Because we we're working on them already. We have a lot of things. This the acquiring of this property actually held us back because we were already going and then this came up. So we added it. So now we have to wait for the plant in order to add it. So, so this Yeah. So, this wasn't when we reszoned that first section down closer to North Loop. This wasn't this wasn't it wasn't a part of it yet. Right. It's just all the next

part. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Questions? No, I don't have questions. I'd like to make a motion to approve. I'll second. I have a motion made by Andrew Royos, second by Alandra to approve. All those in favor of the motion I.

Any nays? Any abstain? Motion carried. Item number seven, considering take action on the proposed approval of the final plat for Paso Lower Valley Commerce Center subdivision being a portion of parcel one track three and four block 24 San Alisario Grant El Paso Texas El Paso County Texas and located at southeast corner of north loop and estates drive Miss Rodriguez.

Thank you Miriam. Good evening chairman commissioners J Rodriguez planner with the city of Sakoro. We'll continue with the next item on the agenda. Item number seven, El Paso Lower Valley Commerce Center final plat request. We have some general information. Legal description. It's a being a portion of parcel one tracks three and four block 24 selisario grant property owner PGF number two Sarat LLC representative TR and associates LLC the property area 65.146 acres current zoning this uh property is situated in the city is Ouroro 2 miles ETJ J current land use is vacant. Summary for this request is the approval of final PL for El Paso Lower Valley Commerce Center subdivision and a staff recommends approval for this request. In the next space, the subject property is a light in red and the purple shading uh denotes the city of Sakoro 2 miles ETJ. This is followed by the aerial image. Next page, please. And then we have some pictures taken from uh the intersection of states rise and nor loop followed by the final plaid presented by the applicant to be presented for approval. And then we have the schedule of development in which uh indicated an estimate

estimated final county acceptance by November 2026. The summary for this request, it's approval for the final plat for El Paso Commerce Center subdivision. At this time, st and the applicant. It's available to answer any question you might have. Thank you. So, this is the one that's entering Cotton Valley Estates, right? If I'm not mistaken. Can can you go to the can you go to the aerial aerial view right there that so peon valley pon valley valley

yes okay okay and so okay can this is for approval of a final plan did we see a is there like a preliminary It was good evening commissioners with train associates. I think it was approved in the 16th preliminary December 16th. Okay.

And so it was approved with by city council as well. scheding for introduction and action item has agenda for this next again.

Okay. And so if city council hasn't seen it, the the preliminary one knowing board approved,

then I'm not I'm just not clear how it would come as a final to us without them having voted the first the requirements of we don't have any zoning and so we've been down this road before you guys discussed all this I was

yeah we talked Am I correct? Ask questions because

so so kind of my view where I stand anytime I see anything on North Loop. I know I I hesitate a lot because of the traffic that we have now. So it's a problem that we already have. It already exists. To me, the only fix to this is text, right? We've been pushing for text to what industry I know that they've been through a physibility study phase one, right? On page two or whatnot.

Well, the physibility study for North for the development of the construction right for construction as of right now with the current still being no there's still that opportunity

you can reconsider another past.

So, we're trying to go through this I got to go back that we we've already we have a big problem on North Group. I I live off one of the subdivisions off of North Group. It takes me, you know, three, four, five. Well, maybe not that much, but you know, 3 minutes is a long time to get out of, you know, intersection or whatnot. So, I I deal with it every single day. But I know that when growth happens, that's when text dot and them kind of, you know, you kind of pressure them into, you know what, we it's growing. It's growing. We've got to hurry up and we've got to move this forward. So again, I'm I'm I'm with it and I'm against it just because of the traffic right now. But I know that the only fix to it is if growth happens and and text looks keeps looking our way and and kind of you know pressures them to uh hurry up and fix it. One of the others that aren't break has started. We just don't know where the Right.

And East Wind is pretty close to this one. So hopefully a lot of that traffic will'll go up east instead of coming down, you know, west on on North Loop or whatnot. So Again, the opportunity is there to make public comment once that window, that next window for public.

So, I'm I'm again I'm I like it. And hopefully it's something that'll push text a little quicker.

Yes. I think I think what is most important to us as residents of Soro is yes, the infrastructure is something that the city of Saporo has. And I understand that yes, the lights are gone when they're supposed to go out, but they've been going for a long time. And so as residents that have to drive down, we get very discouraged. see more development and not enough from the city of Sakoro for infrastructure to help us get from point A to point B. And I think this is where all of us are caught up is to say yes, we want a lot of development to come into the city, but the city of Soro cannot keep up with the infrastructure that we need. Unfortunately, it's a slow process, but we are projecting allowance which will allow us to go to the next step which will be to looking at those necessary and the other one that also slowess but we're working our way through it and trying our best to move that. So unfortunately when steering the wheels they can than the city. But we are we have indoors

in also commissioners as part of this project we are coordinating with text any improvements they might require for North Loop. So they are currently reviewing our improvement plans and we're just waiting on any any comments from text. We have started that coordination. I want to I want to clarify. Okay. My question my question is does the coral have any say as to what can be built here? No

whatsoever. Okay. And because they meet they meet the the subdivision requirements. So it's almost an automatic that it's got to be Okay. Um have you guys discussed in the previous meeting what's going to be built here? Residential. No, it's actually non residential and we we don't know the end user yet, but we have talked to the developer and It might be some warehouses.

Okay. So, that that's where I'm coming from. It's warehousing and that's been through the grape vine for this. We've been looking at this since we were looking at the other subdivision onto other states and the cotton field that's back there. This is going to end up being warehousing. So, we know the all the trees that are being out right over here.

Yeah. And so we have control over this one, the one that's being the one they're actually working on. This one we don't have any control. But I want to point out that these are warehouses that are going to be built and my opinion. It's it's not a good fit for coral having warehouses here. Now the next phase is going to be the next one to our left.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah, I guess it' be that's the next oneous and so on that alone I think that this board should be unanimous in voting no understanding what that we're not allowed right because they're meeting everything and throw it up to city council with a unanimous vote no simply on the opinion that this board thinks that warehouses should not that's my position I understand that city council has the final say but it's on our record And certainly me right now it's it's a no based on that. Whatever the repercussions are on that although they meet all the throw I say throw it back on them on the on the on the owners come back and do what they what they're going to do but city council should be screaming no warehouses on here. I see North Loop in the future maybe commercial units across Northage. It's, you know, you're talking about Eastwind, that's a huge residential development that's going to go up in there as well. Some commercial, somewhere housing probably, but we've seen the master plan for for going up on on East. All that is residential. There's I don't know how many thousands of lots in there for residential for the master plan. And so all that area right there should be frontage, should be commercial with single family or apartment complexes behind it. We should take advantage of North Loop frontage. And here we are basically with our hands tied behind our back. There's going to be warehousing and we're going to drive by and like oh my god we were in that position. So I I mean I think it should be just a unanimous shoot it back up to city council. No. And then we should have this room with the citizens of Sakor should be a thousand people in this room screaming to say no. We all know why. warehouse in in the heart of

As peon trees there the rest of my life I understand that that's not realistic but it does not have to be warehouse I I wasn't present but yeah but I don't think we discussed that it was going to be a warehouse it because of the fact that it was something that couldn't tell.

Yeah. I I and and I understand but the position should be and and I'm I think the position should be from from staff as well and from the the the position of the city of Sakoro as maybe not citizens within the city limits but you work for Sakoro as far as right and the position should be hell no more no And so

I I I understand that. But there there has there should be a point where you push back, right? And put it back on them. Come to the negotiation table somewhere somehow. Right. And so just to clarify and for the record, do you know or can you tell us what the owner will intend to do with this parcel? Just like you said a while ago, just if you can repeat that, please.

We don't know exactly the end use of the property, but Good afternoon, commissioners. Robert with Train Associates. For the record, to answer your question, sir, we uh we're not exactly sure, but um it looks like it will be a warehouse. So, we're um there's still no uh final approved plans. There's still no contract. There's still no contractor. There's none of that, right? But there's always a plan. And so it could potentially be warehouses. Can I ask a question? Yes, sir. Quick.

So, are you I'm assuming they're going to be you guys are going to be asked for a traffic for PIA, right? Yes, sir. We submitted that. Correct. Okay. So, I'm just curious to see if there's uh some kind of comparison that will show us a TIA uh with an industrial manufacturer. What not in comparison to residential, how many houses would fit there or or what the comparison would be?

That's a that's a great question actually, sir. This particular TIA focuses on non-residential and we did submit that that's on file with staff. Uh we've submitted that to the county. Um and I think like Lynette said, we're also coordinating with texttop, but we did we did generate a traffic impact analysis. To answer your question, sir, typically um what we see Historically in every TIA that we've completed, residential always, always always always generates more traffic. Um, just like for infrastructure, residential always takes up more capacity. Residential always needs bigger pipe sizes. Residential always has more hour trips. I I think the difference is the the size of the vehicle, right? So the size of the vehicle, if it were to be industrial warehouse, it's it's an 18-wheeler. Uh, it's bigger, but generates less axle loadings. In other words, less less traffic. For this particular TIA, there is not a comparison. In other words, it doesn't say if it were residential, it'd be this much. If it were industrial, it'd be that much. But I with certainty, I can tell you that residential always yields more traffic. And that's something that we're not opposed to giving you all. I can go back and within a day or two and say uh and this is in email format, right? Hey, I did the calculations. This is how much traffic would be generated if it were residential versus uh the opposition.

I think the the adding to that the the type of vehicle we're calling semi-truckss basically and I would add to that that that it's a slow moving vehicle that turn left, turn right, getting onto North. So, yeah, it's less traffic, but it's a a larger vehicle. It's a cumbersome vehicle. It's just the nature of of that vehicle, right? And so, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, it's less traffic than and single family produce more traffic, but cars tend a little bit faster than 18.

Yeah. And I understand and and just to reiterate because it's textile right away because we're in the county we are coordinating with them uh and we're abiding by everyone's regulations including so up to each person's limits. So we are coordinating with everyone.

I'll add I'll add something to it. So I remember in the brothers farms the first one they they opted for a de acceleration line. They granted an easement to the city for future extension. And I remember and and don't quote me on this, but I remember where they made an agreement that they would put the setbacks. I think the minimum was 250 and then they went up to like 350 accepting that they would leave the landscaping of peacon trees on the frontage of North Loop so that it wouldn't be a sour eye looking at all the warehouses. Would that be something that could be negotiated in this parcel? Sir, that's a good question. That's actually that before you even mentioning it, that's something that we've discussed with the developer. So, anywhere there could be a peon tree left, whether it be uh in a landscaping area, landscaping island, uh along the frontage, we're leaving, I think maybe 50 or 60 feet of frontage with some kind of water harvesting swells and potentially leaving some peon trees around the area. So, uh, we understand that the peon trees is a fragile conversation and so our intent is to try to retain as many of them as possible. Um, we have a layout where we've kind of highlighted and say, let's try to keep them here. Let's try to keep them here so that it incorporates into the development. So, that's a great question and we're already doing that.

Would it be something that we can put a condition to it? Maybe like I think setbacks are related to zoning. So, I'm not sure if you're

something here under the industrial line. coming old wo, right? You know, how they did the ponding areas at the front landscaping, all that. Would it be something that can since we have no say, right? Maybe at least make that a a condition to where it's not a sour eye and they must leave certain setbacks or and then landscaping of peacon trees there and maintain per say the warehouses hidden in the middle. and and Loren, I'm not sure if this could I don't know if it could be done um through through code, but for sure it's something that we wouldn't be opposed to because we're already doing that. So, if you could find a way to do that

I know that was a main factor when they did this one of the brothers farms. I know that.

Yes.

Regarding the landscaping and or setbacks. I don't know. Yeah, I mean I don't know if it's possible. Is it something that the owners uh or owners representative um is that something you guys are willing to agree to or accommodate? Yes.

Yes. So that that's something that we're not opposed to leaving peon trees where we find space for. Uh one of the areas is frontage also internally. Um I think the question is more logistically how does Lorine do that if if there's no I'm not sure how you want to word it. If there's no simple saying It it's possible too that some of the trees would have to be removed for utilities and things like that. Hi. Uh, can you all hear me?

Yes. Uh, my name is Dan Tmco. I represent the developer on this. I would say we're comfortable leaving pecan trees as a landscaping feature here on the site where it can be technically accommodated. And by that I mean areas where there's not pavement detention utilities. Um stuff that you know you can't have trees on top of a pipe or pavement of course but along green spaces and areas of impervious. Um I think we could leave them there with with no issue at all. And you guys are also dedicating uh space for the rightway the future expansion of North. Is that part of it also?

That's kind of part of what we're coordinating with texttop for with sorry and they have tested some deceleration some acceleration lanes and we're still not finalized with the coronation but whatever they require we're going to provide you will dedicate it what whatever they require we will provide for future expansion of if they require it sir yes that's what if they require it you guys are not opposed to

yeah if they require it they won't give us access if we don't give it to them so we have to abide by whatever their standards or whatever their requirements are If the commission is trying to formulate a motion, you could add that, you know, that they also meet text dot requirements, whatever they require. Um, those still have to do it anyway under state law, but you could add that on there. Um, on the I guess on the it sound like it was a frontage request or on the on the trees and the landscaping. Again, if there's an agreement with the owner here, we can try to put that into words as well with the uh if an approval is being considered. Um we just kind of need to kind of clearly state in the motion what you guys are thinking uh how you want to word it. But

I I I'm I'm with you, David, 100%. I don't want any more warehouses on the interior of Sakoro. I you know, I I feel I'm exactly with you on that. But being that it's in the ETJ and that they're meeting the requirements and if they're willing to um leave kind of that land, you know, the landscaping with the the con farms or whatnot and having to meet the textile requirements, it's still, you know, I'm a little bit forward or whatnot, but I get what David's saying and I just really really wish that we can So I have a question that the preliminary has not gone to. So why not let us why don't we let them take and then it'll come back to us.

I I concur with that. I agree. I think the process is flipped and this is not the first time that we Yeah, I think we should follow the process and to say that city council should approve. It'll be another another meeting that we come back to the next table. Yes. So, so we will table it and then it goes to city council. If city council passes it, then it will come back to us for a final. Right.

I think that what we should do. Uh because yes, I think we're all in agreement that um you're talking about 65 that is a lot of that is a lot of and so there I mean just looking roughly there's another 65 acres next to that

we go here we're trying to uh that we already have about a warehouse. We already have that even though we did that one. We did go to city council and they approved it. I think it's important that we just uh follow the criteria and let let it go to city council, see if they approve it, and then it will come back to us.

Can I ask a question to the developer if he's still online? Um are you all also looking into purchasing that lot next door for the same thing? the uh the adjacent lot on North Loop. That would be north, I guess, page left. Looking at the screen, we have a contract to purchase that as well. Um with the land owner, correct? I did want to add, yeah, if I can real quick, and Loren, you may need to kind of uh correct me on the timing of anything, but if there's a motion to consider tableabling it, and I caught bits and pieces because I couldn't hear on some of the speakers on the microphones, but there is a timeline still on the final plat of when this was submitted to planning zoning uh department that P&Z needs to take action within 30 days. So, we just need to maybe confirm the date with Lorine on when the application was submitted here on the on this final plat because by inaction or tailing it, it could get automatically approved. So, I just do want to confirm the dates. Loren, if you don't mind,

Loren, may I ask a question here while you're looking into that as well for you? Go ahead.

Um, by the way, the the code is currently written here, um, local statute. Um, as this is a plat a subdivision plat process here, um, is council or planning commission um, legally allowed to deny um, a subdivision plat on the basis of of more of like a zoning type case. What what I'm saying here is if down the line, take me out of the picture, if the current land owner or future land owner wanted to subdivide their property, if their plans and their subdivision plat meet the technical requirements set forth by statute, um can that be denied in the future?

So that is correct. As long as you have to be very specific and I don't know what those are being that is the You are correct. Understood. Thank you.

Yeah. And I and I can confirm. I mean, we, you know, I'm council for the city. We can't give advice to applicants, but again, what Miss Lorine said is correct. And just again, as a frame of reference, at least for the the commission, what I'm looking at in front of me right now, Texas Local Government Code uh 212.0091. And that's what also the uh Sakoto um local ordinances mirror. It says, you know, if there is a specific condition uh for approval or reason for disapproval, each condition or reason in the written statement must a be directly related to the requirements under the subchapter. B include a citation to the law, including a statute or municipal ordinance that is the basis for the conditional approval or disapproval. If applicable and number two may not be arbitrary and so if it meets this is with all applications on final plats preliminary plats if they meet the all the conditions um then they're you know it as I think said you know hands can kind of be tight on it especially when it comes also to ETJ territories they're just treated differently they we have some regulatory oversight but not fully because they're not really within the city. So, um I at least just have to give you my legal spiel to the commission on it. No ma, you know, whatever your decision may be. Um and so, you know, the requirements for a plat are also listed in uh 212.004 Texas Local Government Code. Uh it's got several factors and usually I'll give you just an example. I'm not going to read through all them. A plat must describe the subdivision by meets and bounds. uh locate the subdivision with a corner of the survey or tract, state the dimensions of the subdivision of the streets etc etc. So it has very does

have very technical requirements and usually if it comes to planning and zoning before even comes to planning zoning commission if they were meeting if they were missing some items on on that plat um that would have been accumulated with the um owner owner's representative before he even got here so that they would have a chance to fix it and make sure their application is complete. So, um I know I've probably gone over this with some of you guys in the past on the commission on other items. Um but I would kind of be remissed if I did not again kind of let you know at least the state of the law on it and you guys make your decision uh however you see fit. So, just wanted to let you know. to add a correction valley introduction on December. They would not take action in the final two weeks after that. So that was already that information Can can I add a date to that if if I may, uh, Lorine and council? So, our submitt for the flat, it was November the six, and I just want to throw that out there for whatever that counts.

And that's all we're voting on for today, right? That's right.

This is a tough one. I just I'm going to give my opinion. I just think that again I don't I don't like warehouses in the city of road. I'd like to see them in the outskirts, but again it's in the ETJ. Um they meet all the requirements and if you guys are willing to work with us on the keeping the landscape structure. It's kind of the same and and meeting all the text do requirements. I think I'm okay with it and at the same time I'm not because [laughter] if we were to what happens

it's either going to get approved we approve it or get weeny it has to specific reason for us to be literally don't have a voice there and we already approved preliminary. So I I don't think it should be fair to to now we can approve it with the conditions you said could right you said we could approve it with the conditions.

Yes. Yeah. If if you put conditions on it and especially if the owner owner representative is willing to accommodate those um we can have an agreement on it then yeah absolutely then I don't think we have an issue. So it automatically gets approved or we hoping they abide well they would they would have to abide well then but it has to still go to city council and what if they remove them there exactly that is just in city.

So, okay, question and I'll I'll refer back to the you refer you're referring to it as the brother subdivision, the one that that is farms. Okay. So during that discussion that we had uh part of what the developer proposed was doing like for example a visual barrier with mounds of dirt like that was with landscaping that was it was a visual barrier. I don't remember that at all. It was trees. It was the trees. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. But we we had and I remember seeing like for example on their visuals there was like mounds of dirt and part of the discussion that that their part told us was it's just keeping, you know, just obstructing the view basically. So you're going to have the trees and then you're going to have the mounds of dirt. The mounds of dirt are landscaped. And so I'm under that assumption. I might be wrong, right? But I drive by the Edmanos subdivision right now and I look at the mounds of dirt that are there and I wonder are they going to stay or not. I'm under the the assumption that they are going to stay as a as a visual barrier, right? And but then I'm thinking, well, we just the And if I'm accurate, if I'm correct on the discussion, we just saved them hundreds of thousands, not a million dollars because they didn't have to remove that dirt from from the property, right? They you excavated for their foundations three foot probably of excavation for their warehousing pad and they left the dirt on site. Okay, fine. That's fine, right? And so the other part of that is the the theos farms are leaving peak on trees, right? And I'm thinking, is this new owner, how are they going to handle the peacon trees? Who's going to water them? Who's going to irrigate them? Does it is there going to be water rights? Is there irrigation rights on there? Are these owners thinking that they come in with sprinkler systems and irrigate these trees? That's they'll be dead within a year, right? Who's going to harvest the peacon trees? That in itself is a lot of work. And the other part of that, who's to say that they can't tear out the trees a year from now, or two or two years from now or whenever, or they're all going to dry up and they're going to die. you know, it's relying on irrigation. And so, again, and I'm referring to the Armanos project. I'm wondering if all that was written in, right? Is it taken care of? Was it in there? You know, what what's what's going on, right? Where are we at? And so, that one we have control of. And nothing like you're saying, I'm doubtful that all that was addressed in writing. Uh, this one is in in the ET in the ETJ.

I'm hearing the peak on trees. If you were proposing mounds of dirt, okay, fine. It's it's a compromise, but it's still lipstick on a pick, right? And we're they're not doing us any favors. They're doing themselves a favor by leaving the dirt there, for example. If that's what you were proposing, I'm not sure if you are, but peon trees, I'm like, great. They'll be green a couple of years, they'll die out. How are you going to handle how's the owner going to going to handle irrigation? How how are they going to handle harvesting? How are they going to handle the leaves? Are they farmers? Are they going to contract it out? Are they under are they obligated to leave it there for life? You know, what what are they going to do? I don't I don't hear those discussions. So, even though it's proposed right now, it sounds great. It gets approved. What's going to happen? I mean, and plus these are these are living trees. There's no guarantee that they're going to survive a year, right? They're contingent on irrigation water, if not well water, the success of the tree itself, whether it bears fruit or not, just keeping it alive. Right. And so overall, you're you guys know my position on it. Um I think this affects real estate values for surrounding properties, right? Uh the other part of that is overall I think the city of Sakoro has huge bargaining power because we have the land. I ask questions as to how much this land is selling for and these big these companies are buying this land super cheap, super cheap, right? Um the econom the the economics behind it for some reason, you know, I get different answers, but we have an influx of warehousing that's affecting us and as a community, we should stand up and say no more. So again, my position is vote no. I understand everything that the attorney is saying, but we should say no and that's it. Throw it up to city council, but with a bold of no. That's why

then that's the problem. We have to have a specific reason to deny. I understand that. And again, we got to keep in mind all these investors are preparing for arterial one. That is why they're doing all this warehousing there because that's exactly where one is going to come to, right? Um I totally get the stand, but I would say going back to the landscaping at that point, it's like any other commercial development. they have to hire it out or do whatever it is because then at that point it would be code enforcement, right? I don't think they they'd leave them. If does code enforcement even have a jurisdiction over there? No, not a DJ. No,

that would be a the county one, you know. So, the county would have to be dealing with their code enforcement and as they manage the one in the back and you could see they really don't do anything about it, right? So, who knows what would happen in the commercial. Now, if like you said, right, if it gets denied, then there has to be a specific reason to deny it. But like I tell you, most of these investors are going because of art one and they're literally preparing to where there's no other choice after that and they one down

there. There's something else I'm going to add because I I heard a couple comments and I just do want to clarify to the commission too and I know it might just be thinking out loud but you know any decisions by planning zoning commission can't be made on financial factors. So you know none of the plat standards include what a price is. You never see dollar amounts on anything because we can't consider what something's being sold for or what it's being bought for or if it's a good deal for somebody or if it's too cheap. It just none of the standards involves dollar amounts. It is a private economy. Planning zoning commission is does not have authority to regulate private transactions. you know, we have the authority to regulate land regulations, but absolutely not on the financials of a deal or if it's a good deal. I just I kind of wanted to mention that as well. Um, you know,

understood. Understood. Questions?

I'll make I'm going to make a motion again to approve just because there's really nothing that we can do to change it or whatnot. And I think we get a chance to at least put in that condition to where they have to meet text requirements and that you will work with us on the landscaping of it or whatnot. I don't know if we can go as far as into, you know, the trees ever die or what not, you got to replace them again or or I don't know how far deep we can go into that requirement. Uh Mr. Body, is that something that we can we can like really go down into and say, "Hey, you know what? It's got to be maintained and run by the by the industrial park or whatnot, and they have to run it and maintain it, you know."

Yeah. Yeah. I think you could put reasonable requirements such as you know that they maintain some perimeter. I think I I I think it's m Mr. Dan. I see that the name on there on the but he had stated it in a way that I think if you put that stipulation and that they maintain the landscaping. I think that should be something agreeable.

Yeah. And to add some more detail here from our perspective as a as a developer, um it's in our best interest to keep stuff looking nice while we own it. You know, it keeps our tenants happy. Um keeps the property looking nice. Um well-maintained, well manicured properties at the end of the day are worth more. Um everybody knows it when you drive by a house that nobody's maintaining. It's a kind of a blight on the neighborhood. It's our intent here. We're investing um a lot of a lot of equity here in these uh potential buildings. It's our intent to keep them looking nice and keep them reasonable. Um now I can't say down the line. I can't say how long trees last. No expert um by any means in that in that nature. What I would be fine saying is we will um leave trees in areas. We can here again areas where there's no utilities um storm piping, storm water, stuff of that nature. areas where trees can't go. Anyway, I'd be fine committing to that. And I'd be fine saying if we comply with text dot requirements, which we are required to by law anyway, which we fully intend to, um, as we move through kind of the process with them. Um,

does that make sense? Yes, sir. I have a I have a question. Yeah. So, I I Yeah. Oh, sorry. What I was just going to say, yeah, if you guys are looking for wording, I think you could say to maintain natural landscaping and trees uh were feasible on the property. I mean, that I think that might be the best they can come up with. I have a question for the for the owner. Um, will will you or are you looking to retain irrigation rights for for

I'm not at I'm not at liberty to really discuss that here at this time. Um, as uh Mr. Body kind of indicated before kind of the ins and outs and the financial um every everything related to a transaction. I don't know if that's really appropriate to discuss here in in public form. I think I think irrigation rights, which is water rights, that's water coming out of these canals to water these trees. I think that ties in directly to to the subject of of of the trees of the livelihood of the trees because there really is no other way to maintain these trees alive uh other than irrigation water or or well water. I I I can jump in here and and just answer that question. Re related to the irrigation rights. We are coordinating with uh the El Paso County Water Improvement District uh to provide them their anything that they want. So if they want to keep the irrigation rights, uh we are we've already submitted to them and we're coordinating with that department. Uh whatever their requirement is.

You said if they irrigable part of this process. So, another So, that's just another check for us to go through the irrigation district, which we're already doing and coordinating all that. But you said if they want to, who's they? The irrigation district. The irrigation district. But does the owner want to retain the irrigation rights? Uh, I think that that's a question for you.

Yeah. Again, in terms of subsurface rights, property rights, I'm I'm really not at liberty to discuss that and I I don't think that's appropriate for me to discuss here kind of in public form. Um, as Robert mentioned, we are working with the irrigation district. Um, and we'll be complying with all the requirements they have and making sure we're checking all their boxes on their end. Um, so from a technical standpoint, um, we will be, um, checking that box, making sure we're in compliance with local ordinance.

So again, I'll go back to and I'll make a motion to approve as long as the that you guys meet textile requirements and that you would run them and maintain the trees along the frontage. Um, and again what we mean by run and maintain them is, you know, a year or two years they're dead. Knock them down and that's it. So that's the condition that I would do.

I have a second So these trees have been there. Give me a second. So no second motion dice. Okay. Can I'm sorry. Do we have a first? Do we have a second on it? No. So the motion died. So we would need somebody else to make a new motion.

Okay. So if and let's go out a little bit, okay? And and it's it's frustrating because all this goes to city council, right? But I'm hoping somebody out there on YouTube goes viral on something like this, right? And look, if there's somebody in California who's got a project like this and this affects a freaking mockingb bird or a minnow, they'll stop a multi- billion. They'll stop it for 20 years. And here we are in Sakoro. People are buying land for the cheap. Okay, because these farmers are selling cheap, right, for whatever reason. And here we are can't can't stop something like this as a community. It's I am freaking it's just it's just frustrating. And then we ask a question and and so within his right, you know, the owner is saying, "Well, I'm not at liberty to discuss." Well, that and I'm wondering if the owner is local to Saporo. Does he understand what irrigation is or what that means to this community and what that means to this particular parcel and to the livelihood of the trees? And so we're being told, okay, I'm not, you know, I'm not at liberty to discuss. Okay, fine. The trees are going to die maybe. What are you going to replace them with? With a 1 in freaking saplings, right? It's these trees have been there 60 years at least. slow growth trees. They're there. And I I just keep thinking, well, maybe we should we should go the mocking bird route and stop it, right? Yeah. Because the other way is we're going to end up flooded with warehousing, flooded across this community, across this valley. And it's just I'm I'm amazed. I'm amazed that that city council passes it. It's just I'm amazed. But I understand. So I'm I'm I'm not doing a second and I'm I'm voting no and I'm prepared to stay

here till tomorrow. So it's on you guys. So I think technically there was a motion made. There wasn't a second. So if somebody wants to make another motion, you can. I think that's the point where we're at. Well, I make a motion to deny. Do I have a second? I have a motion made by Dea, second by Yolanda Rodriguez to deny. All those in favor of the motion? I any naysay? Any abstain? I'll abain. You abain. Motion D.

Yeah. So again, frustrating because this goes to city council and and I I'm wondering how many people or city council members actually see the discussions that we have when it comes to this and do they have the same passion that we have when it comes to this. And we know and we speak to homeowners in these areas that are just as passionate as we are. And they ask us to come up here and do our due diligence, which we do. And I mean, again, we understand the laws. We understand the rules. I might add, as far as the laws, the laws that are on the book are freaking joke. They were they were they were passed and lobbyed for by developers. They're they're super easy laws to comply with, but just because it's the law doesn't make it morally and ethically right. It doesn't make it morally and ethically correct. And I think that's where we're at right now. Again, I want to repeat that these laws that are on the book are lobbyed for by developers somewhere along the line. Uh I know of other communities where stuff like this is just an absolute no uh limited growth in certain communities, but you know, those are different communities, different jurisdictions. We have the power right now to to to send a message or at least make our message heard, right? Uh I At this point, I think we're at a standstill. Um, I'm not sure what happens.

So, I think we had we had a motion to approve that was denied and then a motion to deny that was also denied. Um, so either Yeah, we can I'm sorry.

I believe so. Yes. You need the three um So I think you know either we can entertain another motion or you guys can decide if you want to move to the next agenda item and then it'll just show up as that you know the motions failed and no action was taken.

May I ask one more question on that for Lorine or Mr. Body? If the motion did did fail here, like if we we couldn't come and there is a a deny or approval motion here on this um based on the time frames per statute of that that 30-day window if we had filed if we had submitted on um November 6, I believe Robert said, does it become automatically approved in that case? Then

yes. So after 30 days after the application's submitted, if there's no action taken, then it's deemed approved. Um, and there'll just be a I think technically the way it's done is there's a separate stamp or something that's stamped onto the plat that says that it was deemed approved by no action taken or something to that effect. I think Lorine can also correct me on that because I remember at least one instance where that happened, but Do you recall the mechanics of that? No one think but still the preliminary we haven't seen the final. So the preliminary is still in the process going to go to city council as I mentioned next Thursday and Preliminary

I can add Yeah, I'm sorry.

I can add a little bit on there. So section 212.009 009 uh of the Texas Local Government Code B. It says um within 30 days after the date the after the date the plat is approved by the planning commission or is approved by the inaction of the commission. A plat is approved by the governing body unless it is disapproved within that period. Um and then section D of that same statute says if the municipal authority responsible approving plats fails to approve approved with conditions or disapprove a plat within the prescribed period. The authority on the applicant's request shall issue a certificate stating the date the plat was filed and that the authority failed to act on the plat within the time period. The certificate is effective in place of the endorsement required by the subsection. So that's

what the law states are. Commissioners. Well, okay. Yeah. So,

explain that in terms only process first but that preliminary is already underway when processing the And so technically it doesn't it doesn't fall on planning and zoning commission right at the end of the day because it was after 30 days regardless. So we're going over an item that automatically got approved after 30 days. [clears throat]

Correct. But if it's past the 30 days is what I'm understanding from November 6. They were both at that time, but now we're moving forward with the final, but it hasn't got into city council on the preliminary either. Exactly.

Yeah. So, when do the 30 days start for the final flat? Let's say they started for the preliminary then when But then automatically both kick in when no decision is taken for the 30 days or is day one going to start today for the final. Let's say the preliminary gets accepted and starts today for the finals since it's our first time ever even hearing about it. But both applications were submitted at that point. Then I think we should have presented both to city council together or or both together to us at the same time because we're past those 30 days. Exactly. already

until our process is just requires us to meet. So that's just our process and it's really the applications of posting.

So then let's say we posted it last Wednesday, right? Day one would be last Wednesday because now we post them on Wednesdays rather than Fridays. So day one of the final plat would be Wednesday. Do we agree? So meaning it doesn't automatically get approved because we're barely at day Let's say that would be day six where we're at now. So the preliminary I'm sorry. So the preliminary basically today was automatically correct without our is what I'm

taking you through the process. not having an issue with us or going through this process at all citys. Who's they?

But because it's in their because it's in their benefit. Well, it's in their benefit. The way that it's being presented and the order that is being presented is not it's in their benefit. It's not in the benefit of the city.

They are doing that. They are requesting that the owner. We're not taking it to city council. But the owner already knows right off the bat that he can actually get it approved and that's okay on the preliminary one, but we're discussing the final flat and that's what I'm I want to know confirmed when is day one because okay, he's got preliminary fully approved since he knows the guidelines, right? And he's bringing up the codes. So, he's fully aware of what he's doing. So, he knows what he's doing. Get approval because he has followed all of the guidelines. Correct. And And and at that point preliminary has passed and so he's fully aware he doesn't even have to come through automatically it's approved past 30 days

the process of getting it and city council seen the preliminary

Mr. B.

Yeah I would tell you I some of your comments sir were were very correct is that you know when you have developers and you have applicants since a lot of people don't know the process and don't know the system and a lot more experienced people that have owners representatives do. Um because the law is out there for everybody. You can just Google it and find the laws that that apply on plats. Um my advice always to the city and and even for you guys is be most conservative with deadlines, right? So um you can do simultaneous applications of the initial plat, the final plat uh the preliminary plat and the final plat. And my advice always is to count from the most conservative. So we don't want to give ourselves more time. We want to actually make sure that the city complies when it's the time that it needs to act. So I would always go with the earliest date that we believe that the application was turned in. Even if they went on a little bit sidetracks, the law doesn't forgive us uh the city if there's Christmas or New Year's or whatever that falls in between. City council couldn't meet, B&Z couldn't get a meeting together. It's unforgiving. Uh uh as the other gentleman noted too is that it's just that's the way the laws have been written. Uh you're correct. It's not not cityfriendly and it was not made to be unfortunately. They made it very difficult because you guys know how fast can a city act and do things and get things done and get them approved and you know it's there's just bureaucratic issues with every city, county, municipality and so they've made it they have made it difficult the state legislature and put the timelines. Uh but it's unfortunately it's statewide. Um and so that's why we always count from the earliest deadline possible to make sure that we meet it. There was a period of time unfortunately with Sakoto and it might have been where a lot of I think even before a lot of you guys may have gotten on the commission was that

there was a time period of planning zoning where things fell right off the wheels and a bunch of applications got approved or deemed approved because they just fell through the cracks and that that was on the city. Um, and so those things unfortunately can happen, but you know, and people will, as you, as the other gentleman said, will will benefit uh from the city's inaction. So, yeah, I I I would be conservative and say day 30 ticks today from November 6 because they turned in a simultaneous application uh just to be on the safe side. Can you repeat day 30? What was that? So, from November the 6th when they both both applications.

Okay. So then it was automatically approved. Both both items were automatically approved per se, right?

Mr. Body. Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. Yes, I would agree with that.

You said that because of our not because we didn't get a good either yes or no. So hypothetically is that could we still well the it seems to me like the developer and again right I personally don't know the person he knows what he's doing right and developers know what they're doing so

I mean can we deny it again we also have to understand that there there has to be a reason to deny somebody's uh land use right or an owner's land use we can't just add up to what I He can't just automatically deny it because of feelings and he understands what he's doing. So, it's automatically approved. He already knows it, right? I mean, I guess they were all being like like you said in the best interest, their best interest, being courteous, but at this point, I think if we deny it, we're just going against it and making it more personal rather than than Yes. So rather than how we have to go by

somebody somebody a long time ago many years ago said when you don't agree with something you got to stand up and be the person who stands up and and does cartwheels on the conference table. Yeah. Saying I do not agree with this. And sometimes it needs to be a collective group to stand up whether it's a community or a council or who whatever say I don't agree with this. this is wrong. I although I I don't disagree with anything that's said. I'm understanding it and I I get it, but this is not right. We can get I mean there can be

the developer there can be a lawsuit or whatnot, right? If we just because of our feelings or whatnot, Mr. Body, is that correct? I mean, that's that's correct. So another sorry I'm I keep citing to all the the code but I have it in front of me because I need muted you guys have that's in your ears. We need to hear the most we can right

that's why I'm here but uh section 212.0.000099 0099 judicial review of disapproval in a legal action challenging a disapproval of a plat under the subchapter. The municipality has the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that the disapproval meets the requirements of the subchapter or any other applicable case law. The court may not use a differential standard. I know there's some legal jargon there, but I'll just give you guys a general idea. you've heard on law and order things like beyond a reasonable doubt or uh by a prepoundonderance of the evidence. Civil cases, you have to only prove your case by about 51%. Then you win your case. In a criminal case, you have to show somebody's guilty. It's a higher burn beyond a reasonable doubt. And unfortunately, the highest one is clear and convincing evidence, which is probably almost 99% uh that that the city has to prove it's correct on why it disapproved a plat. Uh and that's the standard that's put on there. The last time the legislature looked at this law and amended it was September 1, 2023. So every couple and before that it was September 1, 2019. They've gone back several times actually and a lot of municip municipalities tried to find loopholes and they've continually closed them down. Um there's another statute in there that also says that well because this is what cities did. They said well you didn't turn in a complete application. You didn't put a period at the end of the sentence. It's missing a a subsection. It's incomplete. It was never turned in. So the 30 days didn't start ticking. They added a specific section in the law that said you don't get to determine what's complete or incomplete arbitrarily. You can't do that and when it's turned in, it's turned in. So there's they've constantly I didn't realize that part of the law

had changed as well. I just happened to be looking through it as you guys were asking a lot of questions. So this a lot of these ch changes came in 2023 just two years ago. Um so they are constantly changing it. they're kind of vigilant on it. And there's state law, but then Sakuroto has its own laws which have been enacted. Um, and our our ordinances also mirror the state law. So, it's not just state law, but it's Sequoa law. That's the law that Seakora has decided to put into place. Sorry. Can we go into like a five minute Reese real quick and then can we go into executive? I've got two questions I want to ask you. That's fine. Yeah, if you guys move for that, that's okay.

All right. So, make a motion. Let me just make a motion really quick. So, first we're going to make the motion to go. I will make a motion after I go. No. No. So, I have to make a motion first to go to recess and then we come back and then I have to make a motion to go into just for executive session. Just for the recess for not just one. We just want to go. Can we step out of the room to go to the show? I just need to go. So, so then I'm going to make the motion for recess and then we come back and then I make the motion for executive. We have to make two motions. Whatever needs to get done, I just need to go to the Okay. So, um I have a motion made by Oswalda to go to take a recess. Do I have a second?

I second. All those in favor of the motion? I I um any naysay any abstain? We're going to recess at 7:01

Um, so good afternoon. We're back from uh recess at 7:05 and um I would like to make a a motion to go into executive session. I'll second. I have a motion made by Andrew Royo, second by Oswaldo Andresa to go into to to go into executive. All those in favor of the motion?

I any n any of motion carried? We're going at 706 to executive. Hey, hey, hey, Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey, hey, Hey,

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Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, Hey, hey, hey. Good afternoon again. Uh it is 7:50 p.m. Uh we are back from exe executive vote um uh recess and um so there was a motion made already before where it was to uh unite and to abstain and that's the way that it it's going to stay. Um so we will move on to the next item.

Can can I ask one technical question that for Lorine and Mr. body. Yes, I I think we went over it here prior to executive session, but just wanted to confirm. So, with a a non-majority vote in that case, um is a thing where where does it stand from from like a legal standpoint? Um

I will review it with Mr. The preliminary that's been posted will be posted for the agenda to be heard on the 17th 15 of January which is next Thursday and introduce the item for the final approval and continue on the process with that recommendation or or just the action that no action. at the time.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, if no action was taken by statute, then it is um no action taken when we're past the expiration date, that means it's approved by statute. Correct. Yes. There's also that you already

understood. Thank you. Item number eight, consider and take action on the election of officers for planning and zoning commission for chairman.

I I I'll say that because of the discussion that we just had in executive session that we table this item and go on and discuss uh to to commissioner report, right? So, I'm thinking make a motion to discuss commissioner's report rather than this item and get some kind of a plan action plan going. And then for the bylaws, I'm going to ask on that to table that as well. So that and I will come back at our next meeting with a red line on the bylaws. I just, you know, I'm assuming they haven't changed. It's the same thing, but I haven't There might be things in there that I would want to propose, but I but I'm thinking we need to continue the discussion we were having in in public form before voting on on that.

Uh yeah. So item 11 is planning commission report, right? Okay. So we can make a motion to to move item 11 to the next item to consider. Correct. Okay. So, I make a motion to move item 11 as the next item to consider. Do I have a second? I'll second.

I have a motion made by De Estrada and second by Oswald Doresa to move item 11. All those in favor of the motion. I any motion carried. Quick quick question before we move. So then what happens to the other items? 11. Oh, but we will cover them today. I think we need to cover on your conversation from

I thought you wanted to table them for a later date. Well, we're Yeah, it's depending I guess on the on item on item 11. All right. Okay. So, I'll start off with the ne with the next two items. I know they're not on the table, but I'm okay with tableabling those because it's one of them is bylaws and the other one is the Okay. If we don't elect officers, okay, it just continues the same. If we don't elect officers tonight, correct? Or do we have to? I mean, we can still continue with meetings. Correct. Correct. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. So, going on what we just discussed. Sorry. Can I just read the item? Sure. Of course. Thank you. Item 11, planning and zoning commissioner report.

Go ahead, Mr.

Okay. So, I think we need to discuss a plan of action going forward so that we don't continue to come here and have two-hour meetings and we just get I don't even know what the right word is, right? But uh it's either going as a group, collective group. I don't know if we can or not. Collective group to city council and expressing our concerns. I don't know if we need to express them here. I don't know if we just decide or if it's even possible to decide as a collective group to not show up to the meetings. What happens? But I think we need to be heard. I think city council needs to be heard or we need to be replaced basically. And I'm saying we but loosely. That's my position, right? But I we have the term like feelings. Well, yes, because we live here because we have to deal with our neighbors almost on a daily basis saying, "Hey, Dave, what's up, man?" You know, what's up with all these warehouses? What's up with that? What are you doing?

And I'm like, you know what, guys? Show up to the meetings.

Show up to the meetings. That That's really the only response that I have. But I think that the only paying attention to this is when none of us show up for any of the planning. When's the next one? It's two weeks from now. Nobody show up. We don't have one. And then more than likely, depending on the city council member, they'll they'll they'll, you know, assign someone else. Maybe they'll do a better job. Maybe they'll be listened to. Maybe it's somebody that has no idea what the heck is going on. I think you have a good group here, but I think that there's a lot of frustration when these items go to city council and city council just approves because well, it's the law. You know, it's like I I just I just do not agree with that. I do not agree. I know I know it's being recorded and the whole thing, but it's it's the reality. To create change, you need to stand up. You need to push. You need to So if not, you know, it's like what do what do what do we do?

I will. Okay, go ahead.

Okay, so I will add on to what Mr. Estra is saying, right? Our voice is technically silent. Not only that, in the real estate industry and with the neighbors, I get called especially a lot of people knowing that I'm on the commission board. Aussie, we're trying to do this. Oie, we're trying to do that. And I direct a lot of people over here because I don't have all the answers, right? I don't want to give any misinformation. And you literally try to help them out and tell them, "Oh, no, look, do this, this, this, this." They're going to pass it through our board. As long as you're following all the guidelines, more than likely it'll get approved. Till then, they go talk because they have gone to talk to a a city rep. And literally the city rep goes and tells them, "Oh, their vote doesn't count. Our vote's the one that counts." Then you hear that and you're like, "Shit, what am I doing here? Why am I wasting my time if we've seen it multiple times where ours is our vote is just an opinion. So to me, I can tell you that's why I don't put priority to it because when I when I got sworn in, I said, "Okay, it's going to be for the best interest of the city. It's going to be we have here as a position." But when a city rep goes and says that, oh no, they're both literally nothing. They're just a person there. Where where does our voice what are we doing here? Because if that's the case, hey, let's just approve everything or let's just deny everything. Well, approve it, right? Because then city council will be the one that approves it or denies it based on our recommendation, right? When either way, the ones we've denied, they've all gotten approved after we deny. Um, so at what point, am I right or am I am I correct or am I wrong? Is there any other boards in the state, right? If we follow state or laws or government or na national laws, is there a city or is there a state where planning and zoning actually has a voice and when they unite something, it's confirmed tonight or do all cities or

all jurisdictions operate the same way we operate where our opinion is only an opinion? Because if it's only an opinion, then we're technically only doing this to be informed. And for me to be informed, I can follow it on YouTube or I could follow it on on city council meetings, you know, if I want to be informed. But if I actually want to have a voice and I actually want to be heard and I actually want to attend to those calls and and have be a public voice for the city, well then I want my vote to count. You get me? Because now that I recently heard that, um I hope he wasn't doing it in any malicious way, right? And I'm thinking he wasn't. It was just literally saying the truth, right? Hey, well, their voice doesn't count. They really don't have a say. They just It's just a procedure that we have to follow. Then what am I doing here as a real estate agent like like Mr. Estrada said when I have appointments and I've called to cancel my my before I used to make it a priority on my calendar. I cannot book another appointment at that time because I have planning and zoning. I can tell you now I will always overwrite my meetings because my voice has no count. I'd rather go make my commission than be here present. I can tell you that them being here more years. They they have more curves than I do. But to me, after hearing that from a resident coming to me to tell me, "Hey, well, your position isn't worth anything." Well, good, right? Maybe we are in politics. But from another same team member, I'd understand it from an opposition or something, but from the same team member. So, where can we make that change or where can we actually be heard? Can we get on the same room with with city council to tell them, hey, can we change this because of the city? Can we vote to where if it dies with us, it dies with us and that's it. Or is that not an option?

I I can I I'll help try to answer some of the questions very briefly, but planning zoning commission powers or and city council and how you guys interact is found in a few different places. The Texas local government code always that's one place. Number two is city ordinances. Number three is the city charter and it establishes what city council can do, cannot do, and planning, zoning, and what is their their roles. If you want to make certain fundamental changes in how things are done, you actually have to go have an election, put it on a ballot, change some of the rules. Now, you can't change some of it because planning and zoning has to hear things first. They're the first and it's set up as a recommending body under state law. Now, uh, some of your question on how is it on different cities and and this only applies in Texas, different states are different, but um, in Texas, some of the bigger cities because they have so many cases in such a volume, even I think the city of El Paso might have hundreds of cases, um, they might be more differential to planning zoning because they don't have the time to sift through 90 90 applications at every city council meeting, right? So, they just run through it and say, "All right, we will sign off on what they did." So yeah, it it's set up because of a volume, but you know, on the flip side, and I'm not defending the system or how it's again, it's doesn't matter to me how it's set up, but the way it's set up is it's recommending body because you guys are appointed, but you're not elected by the people. So the city council, they have the dual burden of they're elected, they got to run for election, and if somebody doesn't like the decisions, those people are out of there at the next election cycle. But with you guys, you're not actually elected. So you can make a bunch of decisions that people can be unhappy and you're in your appointment until you're in your appointment and you're not actually accountable to anybody to the voters except maybe to

the city council if they decide to remove uh somebody. So

it's kind of you know but you guys are also civilians and I realize too you will tell you your service is valued. I know you're not paid for it. I can't believe the amount of time that you guys spend on it and you guys deliberate and use a lot of due diligence and very thoughtful and it's a thankless job. So, I will thank you as the attorney for showing up, doing your job, and helping the community and really, you know, um it's a tough it's it's I think you guys have gotten some of that flak from people and the unfortunately city staff also, they do a great job and they're paid for it, but they also catch flack on a daily basis. And city council, you know what, they get paid the big bucks and they get elected. They can take all the tomatoes that are thrown on them if people are not happy and that that's that's the job they sign up for. So yeah, for you guys it's it's unfair if you get criticism. I'm sorry if you get it that way and I understand your frustration. There's other few ways and maybe Miss Loren also has I think there was at least one time maybe last year where you guys did like a joint planning zoning meeting at the same time with city council in the room if I recall.

Yes. Uh maybe it was arterial one or something like that. Um

so there's opportunities where if you want to be in the same room, we could talk to them and see if they could do maybe a joint meeting at the same time. You could also do a a joint workshop with them like on a Saturday and see get city council there, get planning, zoning there and said, "Okay, these are here's all the issues we've got. We've got we need to hash them out. We need to have a better system." So, there's opportunities obviously to make a change. You guys always have a right to also go to city council, show up at the next meeting, um sign up for public forum. There's there's a lot of different ways to do it. Um but but I want to assure you guys that you guys do a great job. you do provide uh and I will tell you this I go to city council or I look at the agenda items specifically planning and zoning I actually have to keep track for the next city council meeting usually with Jim Martinez a city attorney I will tell you on the vast majority of them they go along with your recommendations planning zoning presents to you guys they go through recommend I would if I had to get put a number on I would say 80% seems to be about the the same thing or if there's constituents that are upset with you guys those same people show up at the city council and they're just as vocal and they will actually agree with you on a lot of things. They will disagree on some things but they also have that right eventually as the elected body to make the final decision. Um and sometimes they have to take things that into consideration that you guys don't have such as the city budget. So if there's a litigation issue and they say well Mr. Bati what is it going to cost the city uh for us to challenge it? and I give them a budget and they sell, well, we're not going to pay you that to go buy it. We just don't have in our budget. It's either that or we go in increase taxes on all the citizens by 10% next year, which will make everybody very unhappy. Um, because we're now suing all the citizens and going after them with their own tax dollars and increasing taxes on people to sue your own people. I it's it's a very circular

it can those are just some of the considerations I I've seen. So, I just thought I would add it there, but you guys have very valid concerns and points and there's there's ways I think we can address it throughout the year actually. Um, so I just wanted to at least let you know, but they you know, thank you guys for your service. It's valuable. I will tell you that it is very valuable.

I concern that I appreciate your commitment to that question that you have here. best intentions and it's unfortunate that somebody said that it's here. So that may have not I mean maybe that's not exactly what was said. Hopefully that's not what was said or that wasn't the pointed official that M city not just as a public comment but it needs to be placed on the city and ask that agenda item. We are also in the process of updating our develop from the director report department report. So yes uh whatever action we would like to take right now and to answer your other question across the state it's not the way we have it laid out within my understanding as previous

way of information and zoning applications changes. What is the process? What happens if it adds such a majority again that can be discussed with together.

I think I would like to do that as possible. I would like to because both meeting with them and seeing if we can amend the ordinance to where we actually have a voice, you know, to where if it if it ends with us, it ends with us. It doesn't go to planning and zoning. So whatever we have to do to either get with city council you still are a recommen

correct or if it means that we have to amend or change the ordinance to where our vote for our say has the full weight. So correct. So if we have to start the process, that's what I'm asking you. If we have to start the process, let's start it because I can tell you

that if we're our our our vote is not going to have the full weight, then I can almost tell you, well then don't count with me either because it we either have a vote or then we're wasting time really, you know. So if we I'm willing to start the process, right? Whatever it takes, whether we have to put it out for elections, whether we have to run elections because of the city, whether it has to be a paid position to where we compromise, whatever it is, whatever it is, I'm just throwing it out there, right? But to where our vote has weight, let's see what we have to start. So, we're no longer a process or we're no longer a their opinion doesn't matter is what I'm trying to say.

I need I need clarification on on that part right there. So right now we're a recommending body, right? Is that per state statute or is that per city charter? Currently like where where are we at right now? And if it's a state if it's a state requirement, do do cities have the ability to change that? But but where are we at right now? Is it is it a city charter or or a state requirement? State requirement.

So I believe yeah, it's Our city ordinances mirror word for word from Texas local government code. So they're they're the same. I believe it's also in the city charter. So that's it's in three places. But no, to answer your question, you cannot do anything locally that ever overrides state law. State law controls across the entire state of Texas. National law in the United States overrides across all the states. So you can't you can't do something more uh than what the state uh says the law is. So you can't you can't change state law by doing something in Sakoro to change it. You have to change it in the state.

So if it's state law at this point that this that planning and zoning commissions are recommended that they're going to be recommendation recommendation body for for recommendation. Then to answer your question, there is no process other than changing state law. No, no, no, there isn't.

There is a process. You guys confirmed per se where the city of El Paso has a weight on per se plating subdivisions or let's say metroplex area, right? Like Dallas, Fororth, although their planning and zoning has a way to where if it gets denied there, that's it. It doesn't go up to city council, right? there's processes where where it could get denied at planning and zoning and that's where it dies, right?

Yeah. There's, you know, I think that's more for kind of business and administrative reasons is that because again, they have hundreds of cases in Dallas, let's say, that city council doesn't have the time. They actually have to delegate a lot more powers to the city manager, to the different committees, and they because they don't have the time to sit there and go through all the cases every night, every city council. So they end up I think just giving them more difference but not legally but just administratively it's like well we don't have the time to look through it. They looked at it. It's good enough. Um you know you can do the reverse though is that I believe under state law. You don't necessarily need a planning zoning commission. You can you what you guys are trying to do is not have it go to city council. Well, you can actually do reverse. That's doable, which is have no planning, zoning commission, very very small city, and it just goes to the their city council. That's it. But there's still some certain things, certain kind of applications, I believe, now that require a two-step process. You always need to have a process that has multiple steps, right? So most of our ordinances again mar state law they say it goes to this committee or it goes to this commission first goes to historic commission first goes to city uh and if it whatever happens there then it goes to city council because people have a right to appeal to the next higher governing body if they don't like a decision so that somebody else right just like in courts we have a district court you don't like what happened at your trial you lost your trial then it goes to the appeals court you don't like what happens there, then it goes to the Texas Supreme Court. Uh, you don't like what happens there, US Supreme Court. So, there's different levels. So, ours, if you look at our ordinances at the end, they always say something that say, well, blah, blah, blah, judicial review. If you don't like what happened at planning zoning, then city council. Well, then you can go to court and sue the municipality for this reason. So

there's always a multiple stage process because as applicants, as a public, they have a right that one person is not sitting in a room making a decision arbitrarily. Um that there's going to be a process and it's going to be the same process every time. Um and you know that's just that that's actually the American way is there's always a multiple stages and different uh appeals that you get you have a right to do. Um, but there there's ways I think you like you guys suggested of you discussing with city council some cooperation on things and maybe synchronizing where you what you want to do and we can you know try to set up those opportunities as well.

Absolutely. So I would recommend that we try and meet with the mayor and to meeting together. I wouldn't do it at a city council meeting, right?

That's correct.

So, we still have to but individually speak to your your city representative just about what they feel the process that would be one step and then we can try for the next meeting to have what we have so far surrounding what the process recommendations are if you agree with them don't agree with them is it possible for us to have what we have and that our look at volume and then look for other is taken into. So, as a as an individual commissioner, um, we can reach out to anybody, whether it's a state representative or city representative, and have discussions about what kind of issues we're having to see what kind of recommend recommendations we get, whether we reach out to Cesar Blanco or or Mary or Mary Gonzalez or Tony Gonzalez or whatever is to voice and kind of recommendations we get from them because it is a state law. Am I getting that right? Okay, we can start somewhere.

And I have to agree that it is very frustrating because we do volunteer our time and we want to be able to make a difference. of the city of we want to do the right thing and at this point right now we can't either we have to agree and without disagreeing and so I think it's just one person Okay. So, what's the course of action? My understanding is that you all talk to your state representatives, but then on our ending our change.

Okay, I make or or how to I'm not sure how to get this done, but I would like for city council to see on video at their next meeting this entire item on video. They should sit here for for 30 minutes looking at our discussion and looking at what we're what our concerns are and that that takes it right there. These are our concerns and not the whole meeting, just item 11. That's it. Let us know when that's going to be on video so that I'll be I'll ask the rest of the commissioners to be present and then we have our three minutes of our three minutes of fame or whatever, right? But I think I think we need to do that. So, how can I get that? Do I make a motion to do that under this item to get all of the video for item 11 in front of the next city council so that they have to sit there and they have to watch the entire 30 minutes for item and that takes it right to where it needs to go. and follow.

Why? I mean, why can't we put item 11 on a video for the next city council meeting? It's It's not an item. It's not a planning and zoning issue. It's an item. It's an item for discussion, for action, for information. It's just for information purposes. Is that what you're requesting? Yes. They need to be I guess maybe not informed, but they need to be made aware like this is live. We're not hiding anything. This is what it is.

But I mean, I don't if we can't even do that as a as as a planning and zoning commission having this is our concern without having having approval from the city manager. I mean, then okay, then let's call a special meeting to where we sit here and hash it out with city council member. Yeah. But, you know, I'm not going to go to the city red. I'm not going to go individually to any one of the commission members of the conversation. That's that's politics. That's going into politics. I'm not in politics. I want to be in politics. I run for for office somewhere. I'm just saying get this in front of city council. I I don't think that's a difficult difficult request. Why do I have to get approval from one person which is city manager if that's the process? I mean there's four of us right now saying this is what we want. Why can't we do that? Where does it say that we can't do that? for for this item 11

to have an item placed on the agenda if you would like to write the language I can propose from my understanding of what you're asking for the language to get placed on the agenda whether that is the city manag who makes that decision to get it on the agenda the city manager That's one personal and legal because it needs to be by legal or a member of the city or a member of the city or you mentioned yourself.

Myself items get reviewed by the city manager. Anything that I place on the agenda gets reviewed by the city manager, the city clerk attorney for appropriities. I don't place it on the agenda because I want to. Okay. Understood. So I can take your request. Yeah. But what I'm saying is that it could be denied by the same be denied by one person,

but I I can make your feel like you can make a better assertion for what you are trying to the point you're trying to I can fetize that and the best that I can understand your frustration to say right now is

I'm I guess I'm stuck on the this is an agenda item that that we're discussing within a meeting within the PNZ. It's public record. We're not hiding anything. All I'm saying is why can't we get it on there for Why can't we get it on on on open form the very least that's open? You do not need anybody's approval. Okay. So, can we put this?

You can you can do that. It's not anything that needs to get anybody's approval during city forum. You have three minutes. It is not a discussion. You can speak to it's an open meeting. But it is three minutes and they can ask for for an extension of time. But still say, "No, you only have three minutes." How long is a video 20 minutes? But you can summarize it and explain they they need to they need to be made aware. They need to be made aware of our concerns, right? And so other than us going to the to the meeting

to the person or to the meeting where you can That's politics going to politics, right? We're not politics. We're not politicians. We want to be politicians, right? And so so just to to againop hoping to bring resolution and I would like you as I'm going to take this request to managers. or

special meeting. Let's just do a special meeting. Let's just do a special meeting. Yeah. Or we can request send the video to them, request them to view that item so that when we meet, they're already informed of something like that.

I mean, that's atmosphere of compromise. Yeah. But you know, yes, that's the best I can get at this point, right? But I think this is needs to be forced. It's the beginning of the year. It's the right time to do it. There's the next item as far as going with election officers. Well, are you know, are you are you stay at the beginning of the right foot? do the typical thing that a a government will do is kick it down the road and a year from now we be having the same discussion. I don't want to

guys I what I might suggest because we're talking about officers is that I think we were on 11. We still need to go back to items 8 n and 10. Did you guys I think I had earlier that there was a motion to possibly table those to the next meeting. Was there a motion on that one? No, there was no motion. That was just a discussion and the only motion that was taken and we're still on item 11. Item 11.

So let's finish up item 11 with a request that you take that to city council and see if they can they can have we can have a meeting or whatnot. various options. If I may, I would request that you take this video, give it to planning and zoning, and then request a special meeting to I mean give it to city council, I'm sorry, and then request a special meeting with them so that we can have a dialogue, discuss, and then decide from there whether we decide to move forward or not. Uh

if Yeah. If if after they if they decide to take the time to watch the video on their own, their own time and they say, you know what, and they can decide individually to to move forward and have a sit down, right? But if they don't watch the video or they watch the say, "No, no, never mind. We'll just replace whatever, right?" Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Okay. How do we proceed with that? She got it.

I think it need not that I don't trust, but is there a motion? That's what we want. Okay, fair enough. So, moving on to item number eight, considering take action on the election of officers for planning and zoning commission. So, I think we all want to table it. Correct. Not second. Until after we meet with with city reps. After that's Did you guys want to table 8, 9, and 10 together or you want to do them individually?

I think might be easier that way. Eight, nine, and 10. Okay. Can I have somebody to make that motion, please? I make a motion to table eight, nine, and 10. Okay, I have a motion. May Do I have a second? I'll second.

I have a motion made to table items 8, 9, and 10 for the next meeting after meeting with city council members. um by Andrew Royals and second by Alandanda Rodriguez. All those in favor of the motion

I any motion carries item number 12 planning and zoning department report. [laughter] Well, welcome. What a welcoming, right?

We are very happy to have you on board as our new planner. Thank you so much for joining us. Item number 13, considering take action on the adjournment of this meeting. Make a motion to adjourn. Second. Second. I have a motion made by Androyo, second by Oswalda to approve. All those in favor of the motion?

I. Any ns? Any abstain? Motion carried. Meeting adjourned at 8:31 p.m. Thank you. Thank you.