P&z meeting - Regular Meeting

Abby, what do you think? You ready? Okay. Thank you very much.

The uh regular scheduled meeting for the planning and zoning commission town of Front is called to order. We will dispense with the pledge of allegiance since we're following the board of adjustment. Is there anyone here that wishes to bring anything before the commission that is not listed on the agenda? Thank you. Um I assume that we'll not be dispensing with anything or adding anything to the agenda. Um, is there a motion to approve the minutes from March 25th? I vote I uh approve the minutes from March 20th.

Okay. Second. Second. Have a motion and a second. And Scott's already voted yes. Will the rest of you please vote? All in favor say I. I. Post. Carried. Thank you. All right. public hearing to consider the following application category B site plan for DAO um as listed on the agenda. Um staff report

uh good evening. My name is James Taylor uh from Verdantis on behalf of the town of Smyrna. Uh the application before the planning and zoning commission this evening is a preliminary category B site plan for the property located at 129 North Union Street. The property owner is Mock Investments LLC and the applicant is Ducks Unlimited uh Incorporated. Uh the proposed development includes uh an expansion to an existing limited manufacturing facility. The public notifications were made uh for this uh as listed in the staff report. Uh this is an aerial view of the property which is highlighted in green um as well as the surrounding area. The site consists of approximately 87 acres located at the corner uh sorry located between North Union Street and North School Lane. The property has been developed with an industrial building since the late 1930s and has consistently been used for manufacturing or utility related purposes uh including at one point in time was the town's electric department. Um the surrounding area includes uh mostly residential uh with about a block down there being some smaller commercial sites um and other employment uses. Uh these pictures in front of you are from street view showing from each street surrounding uh the property. Um and these this images illustrate the age of the development, the relationship of the building to the street uh the existing conditions um and constrained nature of the lot uh which is relevant to site plan layout. This is the zoning map. Uh the very very bright blue in the middle of your screen is the um the property that we are talking about here tonight. Uh the site is zoned LM which is limited

manufacturing. It was reszoned to that designation in December of 2022. Under the town's 2020 comprehensive plan, the property uh is designated as employment center. Um and the surrounding parals are either downtown residential or residential uh district depending upon the side of North School Lane. Uh the comprehensive plan specifically identifies historically developed and grandfathered industrial sites as appropriate locations for continued employment center use. The proposed expansion is consistent with both the zoning designation as well as the comprehensive plan. This is the uh site plan that was submitted. Um looking a little bit closer, the applicant is proposing to construct an approximately 8,970 ft shop and office. addition to the existing 700 7,434t building resulting in to holding building area of 60,400 square ft. Uh the existing building proposed building additions are labeled on the uh plan in front of you. Um, this plan also includes revised sight access, uh, circulation, fire lanes, parking areas, um, and sidewalk along both, uh, North Union Street and North Lane, as well as a screen dumpster enclosure. Uh, the proposed manufacturing and office use is permitted by right, uh, within the LM zoning district. Uh, this is a picture of the building architecture, which is included in your packets. Um, the addition is designed to to be an extension of the existing facility. um to comply with the zone. And this is another image uh of that. Um as part of the this application, there were four variances that were requested from the board of adjustment um that were all heard earlier this uh evening uh related to building setbacks, parking

setbacks um adjacent to the public rightway, and the elimination of landscape buffer along the southeast uh property line. those four uh variances were approved. Uh in addition, the applicant is requesting a waiver from the planning and zoning commission to reduce the number of off- streetet parking spaces from 33 to 18. Um if the waiver is granted, the proposed parking layout would comply also with ADA requirements. Uh there are several code required conditions that the that must be addressed prior to final approval. Um those are listed within the report. um specifically regarding uh specifically along the lines of required landscape screening uh landscape islands within the parking area uh as well as uh compliance with the source water protection area regulations. Um this site is within the source water protection area. Um and as part of that with it being a developed site is subject to the redevelopment uh portion of the code which requires a 15% reduction in imperous coverage as well as uh rooftop runoff treatment um in according with the town code. Uh currently we believe that the applicant is looking to meet this requirement by installing uh porous paving for or porous blocks for the parking spaces. uh that has not been confirmed by the applicant as of yet, but they will need to meet uh the code requirements in order to um meet the conditions of the code. Uh the technical advisory committee did review the proposal, the proposed plan. Uh they did not raise any major concerns uh but they did note uh minor revisions to be handled during the final site plan review process. you did provide a few uh recommendations for the commission's consideration in your packet at the end of the the report and

um I am available for any questions or if there's anything deeper in the report you'd like me to dive into. Any questions this time? Our commissioner? Yeah, Mr. Chairman. Yeah. What does the town code have to say about uh offsite sound requirements in this zone? Anything in this zone in particular? Well, yeah. Yeah, this anyone in general, what whatever. It

does need to meet the the uh noise requirements. Open space. Uh sorry. There are um the intent here is to have uh it's the LM zoning district has permits a range of light manufacturing activities with few off-site impacts from noise, smoke, waste, odor, and other features adversely affecting adjacent res residential, commercial, and institutional recreational districts. um their excessive noise um would be considered a public nuisance,

right? So what So I guess let's back up and talk in general then. Sure. If you've got a loud party, what's what's the decibb that that the police are going to get after you? Yeah, I I don't know that off the top of my head. We don't we don't have I mean it's like a 90 100 usually something like that. I I don't we don't have anything specific in the town code off the top of my head. I'd have to research it. I haven't done that.

I mean, the only reason I raise that, Mr. Chairman, is sometimes in industrial areas, you know, offsite noise levels are an interest particularly when they're in otherwise, you know, tight quarters. I don't I don't really know what's involved in this industrial setting, whether how noisy is it? Maybe when we get hear from the hear from the applicant we can hear about that or what future use of that resident of that commercial site. Well, uh I'm still interested in offsite.

Yeah, there is a section in the town code just strictly related to noise. It does not get into the degree of decibb and and that type of thing. Okay. So in the report on page eight, the applicant is required to verify that the sound generated by their site does not exceed the requirements listed in the code section. How do we determine that? Give me a second. Apparently, we don't have a metric

where if we're asking them to comply, what is that code section? That That's what I you know. Well, I mean, we we just had the code read and it's just general. Okay. Don't be noisy, so to speak.

Yeah. So, I mean, I I I think we're talking about a couple different issues here, right? you know, so in terms of the, you know, site plan approval process, you know, I mean, obviously we need to make sure that they're in compliance with, you know, the different aspects of the site plan. This seems to be more of an actual usage. You know, the noise isn't something necessarily as reflected on the site plan. And so I think that, you know, if there were actual noise issues pertaining to this usage, that'd probably be more of a code enforcement issue for the town to step in and determine whether or not the noise was being excessive and was crossing over into the public nuisance realm. Um, you know, the extent to which, you know, I'm not sure the extent to which that plays into this. I will say that in the last hearing that we heard, we heard testimony which I'm sure the applicant would be willing to give that this new construction, the current building there is not very well insulated and the new building is going to be much better insulated to reduce noise. Okay, so that's part of their plans.

I I guess the the only reason I brought that question up is there they're Well, it's good time for me to say it. I I u you know, I would say to uh um Mr. Taylor. Uh, thank you. Good job on the report. Um, and he's getting ready to point at something and their heads are going to go together.

I I I went Yeah, I went I went back through the section of the code. So, there are appendix A, section six, uh, E, which is listed on here. Um, it does have specific decibel. It does not talk about industrial related to residential. It just talks about general noise. Um, and it does have a daytime and a nighttime hours. And it does list uh decibel ranges based upon the uh frequency cycle of sound um or sorry frequency cycles per second. And there is a range of decibb in there. uh but nothing specifically related to right industrial against uh residential

but it it would now there is something there that the applicant will have to show any that they won't be exceeding that during the hours which is listed in there. I'm I'm not trying to get to us changing the ordinances or anything. All I was trying to do is give the applicant because one of the one of the things that is a little difficult here and and I was getting ready to say the report. Thank you. It it looks good. Appreciate it.

And and you you know it I'm pleased with the report. That said, there are some questions that are raised because not from where you're sitting, but there are things in here that is coming down to the site plan. And at times, I understand that and at other times it becomes difficult for us to approve something if somebody else is going to approve something else, you know, such as they got to have a buffer. So, I'm getting a little off track. We got to have a buffer, but we're not going to approve the buffer. you'll approve the buffer. Well, what if it isn't the buffer I thought we were going to get? Huh? What if it isn't the buffer that we've all talked about? You know, so I don't have a problem with us putting if if we're allowed and Eric doesn't kick me under the table. That's why I sit so far from him. But, you know, but we're able to make sure that we're covering all this to take as much off of staff as we possibly can. If you want to pick on somebody, pick on me. Right. So, so right, one of the required code conditions here is a six foot high landscape screen, right? And so I think that if as part of our approval process, you know, some clarity to what that is is given, you know, I don't see any objection to that necessarily,

you know, and so that's that's the direction that I'm trying to head in. So um you know if to answer your question Mike there is definite you know uh noise level and and there is I believe I heard you also say uh Mr. Taylor that that it also covers hours. That's correct. It does. And what are those hours? So the daytime hour is from 7:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. and the nighttime hours from 10:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m.

Okay. All right. Okay. Yes. Go please. Um, another question I had, um, was the applicant said that they would be reducing the impervious surface coverage of the area with the, um, impervious pavers or whatever it might be. Has that been done elsewhere in town? And is that verified by, I don't know, public works or something that it is infiltrating in the future? Because I know that some of those treatments need maintenance over time to still perform. they need to be cleaned or vacuumed out and so on whatever it is to let the you know the water tickle down and have that um effect of that treatment. So I just wanted to know you know how do we follow up on that to make sure that that is in fact working as well as it should be.

Yeah. So to my knowledge that that practice has not been instituted within the town limits for the source water protection area uh credit. Um, we have not received enough documentation to state whether they meet that 15% currently or not. Uh, but we have concerns about the impervious coverage and making sure that it truly does have the reduction. Um, for example, I think you mentioned, okay, if it's if it is a uh if they're trying to make it like an infiltration facility of some sort, how do we make sure that that is truly infiltrating? And so that would def we would then defer back to um Kent Conservation District on part of that to verify that they are doing that. But a report would still be needed to demonstrate how they are documenting or how they are meeting that. Um it's also listed that they have to provide a environmental impact assessment report uh which has not been received either. So those are two things that would need to come before us before the town uh to verify that those things are they're meeting those code requirements. And if they don't meet that code requirement based on your report, they got to go get a uh variance from the board of adjustments or

make modifications to or make the modifications. Yep. So, Mr. Chairman, yes. Just to follow up on that, as you know, in the past, I've I've supported these impervious surface things, but we haven't done them up till now. Um, but to staff, do we I guess we don't know, but I'm presuming, would it be fair to presume that Kent Conservation has standards for the installation and as my colleague raised the maintenance of these kinds of services? Yeah, that would be and we could then Mr. Edwards specify those in amendments to this u plan. So I think that we could

since we don't have standards in the town, we could refer to Kent Conservation for Maintenance Standards. Yeah, I wouldn't see any issue with that. Okay, good.

So Denre, so KCD refers back to the Denre Sediment Storm Water Regulations, which they have a what's called a post construction storm water book. Basically a manual that that says here's all the different things. This type of application would be considered under their their porest pavement type section which has a a clear thing of how they're constructed, how they're designed, how they're constructed, what can go to it, um how do you maintain it, you what what types of things you need to do, you know, do you need to have some type of observation port to be able to go down a little bit to make sure that so that is all in the uh Denre uh regulation.

So you're saying it's got to be better than cracks in the concrete. Uh it it should I mean yeah if if it's just a um it also has to do with what's under those pavers. I mean there's more to it than just Yeah. And I've referred to the RV site out on 13. When they expanded that when they quadrupled the size of their parking lot they had huge water. Um so Mr. Chairman, just as a footnote to this discussion, if we get to this stage, I'd like to see it put in as a a footnote to our whatever, right? This uh include this document that has just been mentioned from Denrech as the uh control here.

Okay. Um any other questions by commissioner at the moment? No. You're throwing me off. You you don't you don't highlight anymore. You know what I'm saying? I I usually could look over I usually could look over here and see what was the highlight. I'll bring the pink one next time. Um ju just a couple from my standpoint then and and I I think you've answered part of it, but one was the off- streetet loading requirements. Staff will determine the uh offload off streetet loading uh spaces after review written documentation from the applicant through the site plan. I mean what's what's your thought process behind that? It's not included in their plan. So

correct. Yeah. There is a good bit of space on the on the site if you look at um that would not block um traffic. Um that's to me that's the biggest thing. We are doing a lot of um garage doors over you know overhead garage doors. Okay, that um would be coming in and out. Uh those are all labeled with the GD um on your on your plans. And then there's an MD which are the man doors. Um, so all of those garage doors are on the uh drive aisle side.

Yeah. Down. Yep. And so there's about 10 foot between the stripe there that's there for the fire march, the fire lane, and the buildings. There also the bottom side uh that there's a garage door along North School Lane that would also be an area that uh could potentially be used for loading. Um yeah. Okay. Thank you. uh on that. Um I um so just Yeah,

Mr. Taylor is whispering in my ear over here. Just we also need to address the uh parking waiver also at some point. Well, we will after we get through this. I I see how at the last meeting you got Rodney to do all four of them at one shot. That threw me off. I thought we would not get started till 7:30 view. And I and I do appreciate that. I really do. But I I would I I'm not sure whether we're going to lump it all together, but we can try to do that. Um if if that's permissible, doesn't matter. However you feel would be most efficient.

Huh. Um okay. As as they're doing, we we talked about the landscape uh screening and the plans would be needed. We talked about that being revised to show that landcape screening and etc. Um and and staff would be looking at that. Provide a landscape plan depicting the planting of the 13 new trees. I believe they did that. Is it not shown on one of the plans or something? They they are showing 13 trees on there, but they don't provide any species or anything else related to them. So, okay,

we're looking for more details related to landscape um installation. um as well as as part of the landscape island. They do have a landscape island in the u next to the ADA space uh in the parking lot. However, no landscaping was proposed in that landscape island.

Yeah, I saw that you had that in here, too. So, that that would be there. Um uh let's see. We talked about the noise. Um I I assume that board of adjustment approved all four of the variances that were requested. Um and um now on the waiver then since we're going to well let me go to the required code conditions you said there's got to be a 6 foot high landscaping screen provided in accordance with the town of Smyrna and you also said the plantings in the landscape has to or you know in the in the island and uh we we just got done talking about the site impervious cover. So, we've looked at that. Um, not going to talk about your recommendations yet, but the waiver for the for the parking, understand their request, saw their letter that they sent us narrative and etc. Uh, and go from 33 to 18 spaces due to the fact of the number of employees they have, the number of people that will will come to the site, etc. Barrett, what's that do if this property changes hands in five years?

Um, I mean, the waiver would carry the waiver would run with the property, right? I mean, you couldn't make the waiver disappear. Well, that's what I'm saying. So, you know, so ultimately, whoever would be looking to purchase this property, that would be something they'd have to factor in, right? Whether or not there's adequate parking for them. I mean, you theoretically could have someone who came in and said, "We don't care. There's not enough parking. We want it. We're just gonna have people park all over the place." That's theoretically could happen.

Yeah. That that that was just that was the only red flag that's really raised was the simple fact that it could change hands. I I I don't imagine it will in in my lifetime. I've gotten to that age where I can say that now. Um, but you know that means that they could double their employees and they'd be parking in the residential area. Okay. And there's nothing we can do about that. Okay. You're asking they currently currently have 14 employees. No, I'm not talking about I'm not talking about them.

Right. Right. But they're doubling the building with no indication of how many new employees are going to hire. I I think there's they're only going to add four double the building. The applicant can testify to that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's fine. I mean, I I understand how they're going to I their their documentation that they sent was very well done, you know, on why they are asking for the waiver. My question was, could we have put a stipulation on the fact that, you know, if if the property is sold and and the new owners need more parking, can we can we make them put in more parking and will the property support more parking?

So, I think that's the bigger issue, right? Is that if there's no space left on the property for parking, but Yeah. that makes it difficult, right? Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well, I would like to make a point that if it were to change hands and became a nuisance or, you know, whatever to the residents in the area, perhaps there could be a new code about what parking is allowed there or time limits or something like that or residential permits. There's other ways you could handle it to make sure the spaces are available for the the neighbors in the area or something like that. Sounds

sounds like something out of New York City with residential parking permits. All right, that that answered that one for me. Thank you. Um and then I guess the last one you had was um you're recommending additional landscape plannings within the landscape buffer. What What are you What are you saying there? Uh so on the on the plan as currently presented um you'll see that along the building face and adjacent to the residential zone um there really isn't any landscaping proposed that area. Um so in order to create an additional screening um looking at contextsensitive development understanding that this is an industrial use in the middle of residential um you want to do whatever you can to minimize the impacts of the residential community. And so the landscape, you know, there there is a requirement for a a six foot tall landscape screening. Um there, you know, or a some type of solid fence when they have um the outdoor uh storage and those types of things. Um but also along North School Lane and on north along North Union Street, um there are some some considerations there uh that could be made to add some additional landscaping besides just the street trees that are being proposed at this point in time. Okay. And Mr. Chairman,

yes. Go ahead. Also, and Mr. Reid can address this better than I can, but also the selection of species can serve to help attenuate some of the sound also. Right. That's correct. Yeah. And it's really the right the right kind of herbaceious screening will do a better job than a fence even of sound attenuation. So, you know, that's a good idea, but let's make sure we pick some good species that not only look good, but break down some of these other potential offsite impact, right?

And the last one, which is carrying on the fine tradition of your predecessor, you need a bike rack. That's just all right. Um I I again I thank you and we'll come back if we have additional questions but I sure we will. The applicant that's that's you're up. Thank you.

Good evening Mr. Chairman and the members of the plan commission for the record. My name is Michael Sparkco and I'm the owner of M Investments LLC that owns the property. So that's limited. Um we're here today in the planning committee over the additions to the building on 129 North Street. So the order of justice is already taking care of that variances here. Um, just to make you feel comfortable, we've been in town for over 15 years. We live two blocks down the street on Mount Baron Street. I've not had one for 15 years.

I go by your place all the time, every day almost.

Yeah. Not one from Nintendo, not one from anybody. Um, so we're expanding our business. We've been growing steadily. We plan to hire additional people. We are close to 40 people. We're your second biggest employer in the town of Simra right now. So we the amount of people that will be in this building or the amount of people use for manufacturing. The number that don't really change much. There's machinery in this building that makes duck work. That's what we do, right? um the bulk of our employees are offsite building big buildings that's what we support here. So um we plan to hire additional people to you know hopefully expand this building in order to keep our business running um and growing this point. So, you know, basically what we have with the the planning commission is the zoning ordinance for the 33 parking spots to reduce them to 18. We basically have probably about 12 to 13 people working out of the facility we have down the street and that's who's going to be coming up there. So, some will be staff and some will be better. Um, keep in mind with me I'm not the civil engineer that I hired. He is out west in Montana right now. So I'm filming and this is something I typically do. Um, you've already heard what's going on here. So I don't have any questions like that.

Any questions for commissioners? So you don't have any intentions of going more employees at this site?

Oh, we do. Well, we these employees help the other employees and that's what keeps growing. We do schools, we do hospitals, and we do government. So we're a very stable business. We've been in business for 22 years. Um, you know, there could be people in and out type of deal, but no, the machinery that we run is basically run by the employees that we have at this point in these facilities. Um, there will be additional people hired because of this. They some may be on site, some may be off site. Do you think 18 spaces is adequate for your expansion of employees?

It's fine. My my office building has five cars parked in it down the street. And uh all the parking there's about seven cars at at the uh at that building for workers. Yes, mister chair. So just to get back on the sound thing just a little bit. I don't know how your bit how your machinery works, but um do you have any idea? I don't know if you do tests inside the building for OSHA compliance or anything, but do you know have any idea what the operators are experiencing as far as decibb in the building?

Um, we have OSHA around us all the time, whether it's job sites or they've been in our shops before, right? Um, we've never have any problems. We do have earplugs and stuff if things are noisy, but it's a typical realm. So you're not running like big stamping presses or anything like that? We're running coil lines. We buy metal. So that's what we do. We're HVAC contractors. Um we have a welding department. Most of the the noise is made from knocking the seam over on the piece of D.

Everything else runs through that that building right now is housing about $2 million in machinery. at this point before this addition goes on. And so my last question along that lines, I think I overheard something at the um board of adjustment, but you're planning on insulating u the walls in in the building that you're expansion

the additional. Yes. And we're moving the garage doors away from the indust, the uh residential area. So, um, and then we have people that have concerns. We I've even offered to do additional installation on their side of the building because they have a daughter that has issues with sound. So, I think we just work it out. Make sure everybody's happy. Yeah, that's all I have. Anybody else have anything? You know hours of operation 7 to 3:30 typically Monday through Friday or early seven what for you?

Yeah I was able to what' you say it was 7 7 to 3:30 7 to 3:30. Okay. You don't really get started that early down there, do you? No, they pull in around seven when they get started and you know running things through machines, but there's no noise in that. The only noise is when they knock that seam open. Yeah, I've heard that.

Air. So, we'll have to uh contend with that noise. But that noise should move inside the facility more. This addition is going to move it back into the existing building where you're going to hear most of that noise where it's going to be isolated. You can hear the grass. I hear that hammer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one there.

Yeah, I can hear it. Um you you've heard us ask questions of staff in regards to items that must be addressed that are not listed in the staff report. I mean when I say listed, not required, you know, it's not a part of it. Have you had an opportunity to speak to them in regards to these? And are they in agreement with them? We spoke to Troy a little bit, the the engineer about it a little bit. Um the one who's the one who's left state one the one that that's out west. Yeah. He's not he's not available. Okay. Yeah. All right. So what what did what did Troy have to say?

Um he I think it was more he wanted to see what happened at the at the meeting more than anything else. Um, but I with the owner being here, I think this is a good time to ask what they think about Well, I guess you know I guess that's the the the question that I would have and I I really didn't want to have to go back through them, but I can. I mean, so we're you're talking about the recommended ones, not the required ones, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, the recommended ones, I mean, it really boils down to three things, right? One is a bicycle rack, which mean you have an issue with a bicycle rack on the property, right? That would be a great idea. You can make your own.

But I really how whatever works for you. Um Yeah. And the other two is a landscape. Yeah. And so I mean if you want to go through the details of this, but really you're Yeah. Real realistically, we're talking about additional screening. Uh I don't know if this is going to point or not. No, it's not going to point. Talking about additional screening along this property line here, here, and up there to screen.

And and what are you what are you identifying um as additional screening? you're talking about like what types of trees and like we're talking about, you know, evergreens, um some shrubbery, um something that it's more than just street trees, which is what it appears is being proposed currently. Okay. And what like uh any type of fencing? Um the fencing there there is a fence there today. Uh we have asked for clarification as to what the height of that fencing currently.

Um it is a it is a chain link fence with white slats in it. Currently um it appears to be somewhere between four and 6t. I'm not sure if it meets the 6T requirement. The applicant has previously stated that it is 6T, but we've asked for further clarification on that. Okay. That that fence does surround the entire property. Um they will need to be doing something with the fence because currently where the access is off of North School Lane. Um that gate is shifting. So some of that fence is is going to be need need to be replaced. Um anyway gates right street.

Okay. I I I guess my my question on the additional landscape plantings and this isn't something new that's been asked here before. Um plastic doesn't count, right? It's got to be alive and it's got to stay alive. Yes. Landscape. Well, one of the questions that that I've asked before when we've corridor uh drive here, they plant something in September and it's dead in January, you know, do we have any option of keeping this landscaping going? So I I

if they put if they put How many times we seen this, Barrett? I guess from my standpoint, they put in 20 pine trees or evergreens and four of them die. Yeah. So with my luck, it would be the four right by your house. Right by my house. Okay. So, you can see perfectly through.

So, I I think one of the key differences here is a lot of what we're talking about are like residential developments, right? Where you're planting on open space and then, you know, it's going to be left to theoretically like some type of homeowners association, maintenance association to maintain it where in this instance it's being planted on the property that's being owned by the commercial enterprise here. And so I think that if something were to die, you know, instead of trying to deal with a HOA maintenance corporation or a developer that's long since left and moved on to another project, the owners are still the people we're dealing with. And so we could go to them and say one of your trees died, you you're required pursuant to the code to have this buffer. Please replant the tree. Gotcha. Thank you.

Shar, if I may, there is also a requirement in the code that uh has a minimum two-year guarantee for that landscaping. That's something that can always be enforced as well. Hm. And and see, I I like his answer better than yours, but that I like both of them. Um, you know, building suspenders, you know. Um, okay. Um, and Barrett, I knew where you're trying to tell me to behave myself here, and I'm trying to do the best I can. The compliance of the noise requirement, I understand that we can only go so far in, you know, saying that it has to meet the code.

Yeah. But I I want you to understand that you need to know what that is because you're going to have to answer that. It says it here. Only problems after this is a $1.6 million proposition. I understand. But you know that conversation has to take place. Yes. Um and um he's going to build a bike rack. Um and we always we often require bike racks. This might be another product line for you. Yeah. I don't know, a sheet metal bike rack.

And then the other one is I think the other big one was the water protection area and we're we're looking at tying that into Denre Kent County requirements. So that's just a code requirement and we can just, you know, stipulate that that needs to be pursuant to the KCD standards which end up being the standard. And you understand what we're saying there? I mean it see these things all over the place. So make them work. All righty. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Is there anyone else here to speak in favor of the application site plan?

Yes, sir. You swear me in or we don't we don't square at you here. His his we don't square you. Go ahead. We're a mess.

So I'm I'm Zach. I'm the director of operations of Montana economic partnership and we are the economic development organization covering all of Kent County and we go all of Smyrna and all of Milford as well. So we are focused on business traction while also supporting existing businesses stay here and continue to grow here. Uh this pro this project represents something that we strongly value from an economic development standpoint which is a local business that started here has grown here and has continued to invest back into the community here. Ducks Unlimited proposed site plan is not just about the site itself. It is about positioning a growing company to operate more efficiently, expand its capabilities, and continue to contribute to the local community here. Projects like this is critical to maintaining a strong business base. Supporting existing businesses looking to grow is just as important as attracting new ones to the area. We respectfully encourage your support and thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Anyone else here wishes to speak in favor? Thanks, man. All right. Is there anyone here that wishes to speak in opposition or ask questions or you you guys want to flip a coin there, Jay, or do you she gonna let her speak? Stay together. There you go. All right. Okay. Say ladies first.

Hi. My name is Donna Cantalon and Jim. This is Jim and we're here to speak against um this um building project. Um we were against um the variances that were voted in. So um I'm kind of upset with that. Um I have I just have a question for Mr. Sparkco. Were you you mentioned that um you haven't had any complaints for 15 years you've been involved. Were you involved with the project when he was with AG&? No, I was never You weren't. Okay. Never mind. Okay. Okay. Well,

he said he was he never received any complaints

on you. He never received any complaints about that. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Okay. All right. I just want to clarify that because I do complain about AJ. Um I did have a question about I just wanted to ask you about um um the you talk about landscaping um landscaping for improve I I would ask for landscaping for improved appearance. I know we talk about landscaping for the sound buffer which which we are for. Um, but also I would ask if um, landscaping would be added for um, improved appearance if you would go forward with this. And I also wonder if it's possible to ask for a solid fence and even an eight foot solid fence. Um because um looking into that lot is is really

the issue is the sixoot fence if you're standing on the ground you can't see the property. But when you're in the house and you're on your floor looking out your back window you can see everything in the lot. So that that's you can currently see the current building, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So the 8 foot fence would go a long way to not only buffering the sound a little better, but um um I also was asking if we could reduce the number of hours of operation.

Yeah. So they would get the new but um and it's also don't we don't operate on the weekends perhaps. We typically do not but usually schools that are shut down in the summer and if that's the case and have to be done in six weeks. Yeah, we may have to do a long time because is it possible that I Hey, Z. I don't mean to step on you there, but you know, um you may want to get on the board sometime. Yeah. Uh because you can't ask him that. It's it's through us. All right. He's already given his testimony. Okay. All right. So, All right.

I I and I think he already said what his hours operations were. And I guess the question you were asking, and I don't have a problem asking it to him, you could operate Monday through Saturday, Monday through Sunday. You don't know. Typically works Monday through five, right? Sometimes we'll do four days a week. Okay. Okay. But some days we'll do six days a week depending on what has to be made to back online so we can open a school back up. Gotcha. So Okay. Okay, thank you.

But the main reason, you know, we have objection to it is um the big building would be very close to um our primary um bedroom. We're at 215 with West Mor Street. I should should have said that. And that's really close. We're right on property line. And um adding um more footage to a bigger building would bring it even closer to our house, which is the primary um bedroom. And um our daughter, our do adult daughter lives there now. And she has a traumatic brain injury and one of her issues is that she sound um sensitivity and the current sound that's there now. um impacts her

and it it affects her. So our main thing is that um it's there's the sound of the um operation is um it shouldn't be in within a residential area. That's our main. It's just too loud. And when you talk about the decibb, is that measured from the source or from a certain distance? Back in the day, I would flip a book. Now they use a computer. So, give us a second here.

You got that, Gabby? Did I get my point across there or just typed it in? It's it's measured along it's measured along the lot line. Yes. Yeah. The property line. Our problem in with with AGNG with the sound issue was when we would call there didn't seem to be any recourse, right? It was just call the police and what you know and the police were annoyed when we called them because Well, of course they were. It's you know what can they do? Um so what what happens in that case? Just is there a way to answer that? I mean, does it go through the police or does it go through the town? I mean, I

Who would it go to Jason? You know, our operation, it would come through town. Okay. Business hours PD. All right. Thank you. I mean, this is a little bit of a unique situation here, right? Because a lot of times when we're seeing these site plans, right, they're for new uses that are coming into town. This is an existing use, right? Right. And so I mean you understand all the implications. Mhm. Yeah. Typically industrial sound is measured at the lot, correct? Yep. And that's what the code says. Yeah. Okay. Good.

Um, and then I would just ask if um they continue to operate um they could just be considerate of the um residents around there and not yell at each other across the lot and make noise, excessive noise when they're loading their product. And also they blast music from the building and that's annoying too. Okay. I Thanks. Let me see. Thank you for your

Oh, thank you. And we've got got your written statement on that. So, appreciate that. Um, does anybody have any questions to Okay. Is there anyone else here to speak in opposition? Anybody else wants to talk? Everybody's good. Okay. All right. Well, you've heard both. You've heard the report. Um what we have before us this evening is um the approval of the category B site plan for this location. Um you've got the list of recommendations they have to do that are code requirements. Uh and you've got the list of the suggested recommendations which my understanding is that the uh applicant is in agreement to so that shouldn't be too much of a difficulty. Um and we had a question on the uh runoff you know making sure we go to that code in in that regard. Um, the other one that we have not spoke about in in great length is if we want to tie it together and do the parking waiver at the same time. Uh, they're asking for a reduction in that from the 33 spaces to 18, which also reduces one of the ADA spaces. Um, in which, uh, you heard early in the meeting that I got shot down on my thought. So, um that's nothing new. Um and um so with that being said, um if anybody has any questions at this time of staff additional,

Mr. Chairman, yeah, the only thing I would we've added a couple sort of like footnotes that you just mentioned because of some of the issues that were raised that aren't directly related to the site plan per se. I think another footnote after our discussion about noise attenuation. I think we probably need a footnote, Mr. Taylor, to go to the town code enforcement people to along with reading whatever's definitive in the code to do some measurements at the lot line to establish sort of a baseline here uh and to keep an eye on this much like we're talking about with the trees. Yeah,

these are ongoing issues. Maintenance of the imperous sur of the pvious surface.

These kind of things kind of go after the project is completed. But I think it's worthwhile for this commission to send forward these footnotes, if you will. That's what I'm calling them to uh the town to make sure that we're comfortable that these things are going to be watched in the future and reported on. It'd be nice to get a a report back once in a while. And I think I would like to um in view of the parking situation um regardless of what the vote is out tonight is I would like to pursue some of your suggestions of

residential permits, alternate options in the situation where you have a commercial site dead center of a residential site where we don't know the future growth. growth, expansion, use of a commercial site, and I think the residents in the perimeter need to be more protected for future future use of the property. Yep. You know, we're not on Route 13 or whatever. We're dead center of houses. So, it's something I think we should pursue um and the town should pursue to give us options.

Well, that's something that we could do at a future meeting. That's what I mean. I just kind of want to bring that up for future business. But I I mean from from this standpoint is, you know, you have to look at it on what's been based at been information that's been given by Mr. Edwards to us is we're going under good faith that his 18 parking places will be enough

and and that's you know we're he's that's what he's saying that that's that's enough. Um and we were lucky on that piece of property when when it was the town electric buildings it was plenty of parking you know. Um, but you know, I I understand where you're going with that, but if that's something that we want to address, then we, you know, at your next meeting, get Barrett to start looking at that. It's the same thing as Mr. McGrath bringing up about the noise. Um, I I really believe that that's something that has to be measured. I mean, we we have to know and you know, we don't have to know. You're you're going to vote tonight, but even the oper even the owner needs to know if if it's unattenable, you know, for that to be there. Um, I I do agree and I'm sure that that we've made our thoughts well known to the owner that, you know, hopefully that the employees will behave themselves between their trucks and the door and when they're loading stuff that they'll behave themselves.

That's an administrative and you know nothing, right? Well, it's the same thing as you know there there is certain things. I mean, I have one neighbor that plays really good rock and roll music. The other one plays bluegrass. Now, which one do you think I think is annoying? Okay. So, hope nobody's on that heard that and I'll be getting bluegrass stuff. But anyway, um the the thing about it is we hope that that they prove to be good neighbors is what we're looking at. But that's you know wishing in one hand is you know anyway what you have John

um I'd also like to add to the discussion it says in our code requirements that it's a 6 foot high landscape screen that's required you know and at this point you know we can't change that but I don't know if that's just a very simple code that says that's the only one thing that we can require in between a residential and industrial area but if that's not sufficient in the cases where these lots are so close together. Is that something we could look at in the future to say not just a screen but a fence like a wood fence like um they've asked for today um or or make the the height increased for that as well. So, you know, this is what we're up against on our code.

I'm assuming, you know, unless there's anything else in there about industrial lots that we haven't, you know, cited, but you know, that's something we might need to examine as well. I mean, the the difficult one with this one is we don't have many of these LMS, you know, and I don't believe we're going to anticipate too many of them.

Um, so, but it's something that we could put in there. I know I know that we we have it in the um commercial budding residential. So, you know, may maybe it's something that we could look to beef it up in this area. Um and and see um I I believe that I've heard from the applicant that, you know, basically he agrees to everything that you have in here, Mr. Taylor. Am I correct? Or we got to wait for this guy to come back from training. Uh, it it sounds like they're working toward the Okay. All right. Towards that. Yes. Like I hear you got your medicine. Scott, anything else?

You threw me a curveball. I'll bring the pink highlighter. Yeah, I really wish. I don't. All right. Is there a motion regarding the application? Are we including the parking in the motion? We're going to try. Barrett gave me the okay. He gave me two nods and we're gonna try. Just want to be clear.

Okay. Is there a motion to approve the plate plan as presented including the staff recommendations with the requirement for Delta or Deltation? cake conservation uh requirements on uh impervious surface and um anything else? Okay. Well, I told you what to do. Now, somebody going to make the motion. Got it. Kelly moved. So moved. Second.

All right. We have a motion and a second. Question on the motion. All those in favor say I. I. I. Eyes have it. So Carrie sir, glad to see you. You heard what has been brought before. I I believe that you will address all the concerns. Thank you very much. Thank you.

All right. With that said, if you wish to leave at this moment, it is a good time to do so. Um, there is a 22 second break. Just kidding. Okay, the

you know what, Gabby? You'll make sure that the parking waiver is listed in there also. correct with the other things. Okay. Cuz it was part of that um an ordinance amending the uh zoning ordinance code of town standards amending the site plans. Now I want to thank Barrett for this because it's really tough to put one, two, three, maybe nine words and underline them. But you want to explain what what what your reasoning behind that was? how we going there.

So, obviously, we want to make sure that if there's a material change to a project that it would trigger um uh re-evaluation and so the you might have missed a couple words that are in the first part, right? In part number two, the approved number of dwelling units has increased or decreased by more than 5% of the gross floor area on the slide has increased or decreased right by more than 10%. So, so that's one of the changes, right? And then the other so before I just said if it increased because typically what we have is we have people wanting to do more and we pump the brakes and say hold on we need to look at the impacts this is going to have. Right. Right.

Recently where we had a decrease situation we want to make sure that that also triggers a reevaluation. So that would be one situation. The other would be if it is going to impact an increase or decrease on the number of stories in a building. Okay. So um and and we we feel and you know better than I do. I I saw the direction you're trying to go in the five or 10% is a is a pretty manageable number there for Yeah. So I mean I don't think that you know if you add like a unit or two we want to re-trigger and evaluate. Right. But I think that that's a decent threshold. Okay. Right.

All right. Okay. Uh any questions in regards to this? And and we would send it off with our recommendation to uh the uh seven leaders of the community. Is there a motion to approve? Yeah, I move approve that uh that wording to be sent forward for further consideration. We have a second. Thank you. We have a motion to second. Question on the motion. Well, I just want to say I think this is important because And the reason is when we sit here and decide on a project, in my opinion, that's the project we're deciding on, not some other project, right,

that some guy thinks of two years later, right? And I don't care whether it's bigger or smaller, right? It it's it ain't the project that we looked at. and and and in and in a situation it's going to lead to something else, but in a situation where housing and other things are at a premium in a community, it can be just as important when it goes down as when it goes up. So, I think that's why we're doing this. Anybody else? All those in favor say I.

I carried. Thank you. And one other thing I'd like to put in the pot for future consideration by Barrett and I think I mentioned this to you Barrett just in passing a meeting or two ago given the situation in the changing demographics of Delaware and also nationally uh cost of housing. I think we need to think a little bit about um an affordability component in major development and some states have already done this with requiring 10% of the development to meet a certain affordability standard. That doesn't necessarily mean it's cheap, but it means it's market rate or somehow is going to meet a need in the community. Now, I don't have the information in my fingertips of what that would be in Smyrna, but I imagine we can figure it out. And when we get these 300, 400 unit projects, I think it would be good to know that the people who work around here could actually afford to buy some of the property uh rather than get priced out, which can happen. I think it's a good thing to bring up and some of us have personal experience with that and maybe we can bring some people in who have had successful programs or something like that

and successful programs. I've I've talked on some of this with other planners. It really comes back to what we've discussed before which is how the project's built. A lot of it has to do with that. It's not just hitting a price point but what's the design? what's the arrangement of the units? How how's the whole subdivision designed to accommodate that? So, yeah, it's more than just, oh, I got to have 10% and it's below a certain number. That can lead to problems if you don't have the other stuff to go along with it, man. And it can be done. I mean, New Jerseyy's been doing it for quite a while.

I think that makes sense. So, I think they would add that to our list of three tonight. All right. New times will be added next agenda in May. Um, and of course, you already have, Gabby, the election of the chairperson and the vice chair. And what else did we want to put on there? You had something that you want. What was your thought um for the future? Um, you were talking about fence. in other words and I thought that was on the list already loosening what we have for or increasing the number of options we have

well you know I I just want if it doesn't get any further than the minutes just so that we have it in there but I I I don't have a problem or a suggestion that that we at least adopt a list of things that you all would like to see get done you know so so you've got you know you Scott you talked about parking you know is That's something at some time that we could talk about, you know, if if a business exceeds their parking, their growth. Yeah. And it wasn't just the business. I think the issue came up with the churches down the other street up here, you know. So that was like, you know, not the first time I had beat and heard that.

So So with that, you know, when we That's a another good one. I hadn't thought about that one. Yeah. So, you know, maybe that's something that we would or you want to look at. Um the uh Mike I I think it's I don't know what the number is. Um I I do know that the state of Delaware is just doing something with some communities that they are working with as far as affordability housing and etc. But anytime anybody says affordability housing and I read more about what they say, I have less understanding of what they're talking about. M

because you know you you can't build homes of the square footage that's being built and make it affordable, you know. I know. Yeah. But but nobody wants Green Meadows, you know. I mean, that's the problem. And and I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that it has to be addressed. And it's like everything else. And I'll just say that not for a conversation for long is I like the idea of the percentage that if we're going to do the Watson farm that a percentage of that ought to meet

affordability, right? The problem is that's like saying we're going to be transparent, right? It means nothing. It's just a buzzword. What is affordability? So Mr. Taylor is going to be able to answer that for you at his next meeting. Um, well, did I put him on the spot? Okay, good. I've already been taking notes and writing something up. It better not be workforce.

Classic example of the problem is Florida and and and Biff, what what's happening in Delaware is happening a lot of places, but it's happening here faster because of the kind of immigration we're getting. And that is we're getting a much older population much faster. And what happens with the demographics, you get what you call a dumbbell, right? You get a lot of older people. And you know what? You know who takes care of older people? Younger people. And that's what happened in Florida. You get you got a whole influx of older people, a lot of health care workers, a lot of service providers, you know, the guys that cut the grass and so on. And they had a real hard time finding housing for those people that are required to take care of all the older people. Same thing's happening in Delaware. And some of this contributes actually to the homeless or at least what's sometimes called the transient homeless problem. Women who are working with a child living in a car,

got a job every day and don't have a place to live, right? And that happens quite a bit. And and the other thing that they have to be looked at and I don't I I agree with what you said, Mike, but part of the problem we have in Delaware is the influx of the older people who are coming from the areas in which they have sold their homes for what I would consider an astronomical amount and are buying houses here for an astronomical amount that nobody that's born here, right, and works here can afford.

And that's the other problem that drives up the and developers. And the reason you need unfortunately I always say unfortunately because I'm even though I work for the government for 38 years I'm not a huge fan of regulating everything but that's why the government has to intervene because a developer has no incentive with all that money coming in to to build anything under 400,000. Okay. You you need to you need to solve this. Oh, salt. Okay, I will solve and we'll go

and then we'll let we'll let Korean know how we did it and we're good. The problem the problem we have in Delaware and I I think we have an opt we have an opportunity in Smyrna just north of us 14 milesi north of us is out of control growth right with large amount of money don't even look at Sussex County because those people are even crazier than the ones in Newcastle right we have an opportunity to have affordable housing and benefit our community so you'll take care of it fencing we talked talked about that's something that we have to do. Uh the percentage the parking and etc.

Oh, one last thing I'll mention about affordability and we did this a few years ago but haven't done it lately and that is to evaluate and I'm not talking about the unbuilt lots at like Watson Farm or something the unbuilt available lots in town quote unquote. The last time we did that, there were nearly 200 buildable lots, not not out in the subdivision area, but you're talking about the infill lots.

Infill lots. And that's an opportunity right there to do more affordable housing, right? Smaller lots, smaller footprint of the house, yada yada. And we did get some of that. There was a few of those built in town, and we've approved a few here lately up on North Main Street, for example. Those are examples of houses that are more affordable than probably what's going to go up at the Watson farm, right? And so in town, you know, there's a couple hundred probably possibilities of a contractor, small contractor coming in making money and doing. There was that other guy over on um Lincoln Street. He he did one, right? He was in here and got

I built my the three around me. Yeah. Right. That's right. Yeah. Anyway, those that's something else we probably ought to look at. So, yeah, is that something we can go to like pledge and have somebody make some recommendations to us, you know, about what are some best practices that maybe other communities are doing because they have numerous resources out there and whole conferences about how to make locations more affordable. So, they there there's knowledge out there. We just need to pick up, you know, what works for our town and our community. The other thing that I've seen come up um with affordability is accessory dwelling units. And I don't know what codes we have on that in town. We tightened that up. That's something we may want to look at again.

I don't know if we need to look at that at all. I just was just like, "Oh my gosh, do we not have anything on that yet?" But do you want that as part of May or do you want me to like Are we Do you want to look at this? What I would like you to What I would like you to do is all this kicking around that's been taking place, put it on a piece of paper, okay? and put it on the agenda as items for future discussion. Okay? And then let the planning and zoning pick a couple, okay? And say, "This is what we want to tackle." But it doesn't come off the list. What I'm saying is if if you don't pick the fence, right? That doesn't mean it goes away. So for May, you would like the afford affordable housing. Yeah. I I think you ought to look at the affordable housing, you know, that's that's fine. Okay. Let's start the conversation.

Yeah. Well, and I I would ask you to reach out. Somewhere I read that that there are city of do is one because city of do take anything it's free um that that is being done by the state in which they are providing a service not hood but a service for them to look at their and this will tie into maybe the update to the comprehensive plan that the commission and incentives for builders to do that. Oh yeah.

You know, I can't build a small house. It's physically impossible for me because of my impact fees and the school fees and the development fees and the tour fees and the before I even put a shovel in the ground, I'm $200,000. Correct. So, I'm not going to build a one-story small inexpensive house. I'm going to build the biggest thing I can fit on the lot because that's the only way I can do it. Well, that's why the government has to be involved. Yeah.

Yeah. And just a note to add, I'm don't know if you guys saw or not, but the governor did put out an executive order about a month or so ago um that was directed towards um pushing the state agencies to have some more incentives towards affordable housing. That report, I believe, is due within the next couple weeks. and all of those and we'll we'll bring that to you as well to kind of just discuss that

and maybe the state can one hand does what the other thing do is because one hand of the thing is raising in changing the code requiring you know um you know solar capable and electric car chargers which cost you know add $4,000 to the cost of a house and then they say well we need to do more affordable housing. I'm like, "Well, you just told us you just raised the cost of billing it." Well, that's why $4,000. That's why the governor needs to be involved. Yeah. Scared me anytime they assign it to somebody to write a report. Yeah. Right.

All right. Um, anything else from anybody before I finish it up? Okay. Um, to all of you, um, my last day is Tuesday. Uh the mayor has not reappointed me, has not reached out to me. Uh I can only assume that he must have other plans. Um so I can say after close to 40ome years of service to the town of tomorrow. I wish you all the very best. If I get reappointed between now and May, I'll be here. If I don't hear from her, I won't be. Um, you know, and um, with that said, you've been a great chairman, Biff, I think. Well,

fantastic. I I I enjoy it and I I wouldn't mind coming back, but you know, it it's just um, you know, it's it's balls in the mayor's court. Um, and then, yeah,

goes from there. Um, but that said, there's just two things. One, I don't have to tell Barrett this. Told him last time. I don't want to swell his head anymore. But and I would say to you, tell these people what they need to hear, not what you think is going to make them happy. You want the best advice you can get from staff. And the other thing is, and Scott, I was pleased this evening to hear you. Everything you look at, don't look at as today.

Look at it as the future. because Popeye's isn't going to be there 10 years from now. This place may not be there that we did tonight because asking those questions about reszoning and those type of things and and please look out for the town of Smyrna. That's all I ask you to do. Without objection, this is a journey. I mean, I still want to clean out the parking