P&z meeting - Regular Meeting

See, once it hits 7 o'clock, I'm under your schedule, Gabby. All right. Okay. All right. Regular schedule planning commission meeting. Call the order. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All righty. Thank you very much. Please be seated. I don't know if we have um mic on or not. I I just texted him so he is um he texted me.

Okay. Well, he's gonna join us. We're we're working in that order. Um so the first item is the um minutes because we're not are we changing anything on the agenda? The only thing I would request is that um the first item the Thomas England house I would like to switch that because they are actually present and I will be discussing with you the Thomas England. Okay. Okay. All right. Provided an update to me another one you did. Yes. Okay. Um, well, I can't wait to see A become B. Um, is there is there a motion to approve the minutes from the previous meeting?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from last week or last meeting. All right, we have a motion by Miss Reed, second by Scott. My choice. Any questions? All those in favor say I. I. Opposed? So carried. Thank you. Hi, McGrath. Hello.

We just approved last month's minutes. So, we are now down to uh number seven because we switched and we're going to have the public hearing to consider the um following application for a conditional use. So, Mr. Rothell,

thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, this is an application from uh, Tilos Properties LLC at 27 East Street. The applicant is requesting conditional use approval to construct two semi- detached dwellings on an existing 0.257 acre vacant lot. Um, this conditional use application was a duly advertised at the Delaware State News on January 7th. Um it was advertised good heaven this is should be January 13th I'm sorry of um but town hall on the subject property and mailed to the property owner budding property owners the um this particular application as shown on the screen the um this um there's a series of blocks um that kind of rad out radiate out from our four corners that um are zoned CC central commercial. So central commercial is a mixeduse zoning district. It allows everything from retail commercial mixeduse buildings, offices, institutional use, some some institutional uses and residential uses. And um however, the preference is given towards commercial and non-residential type uses. So recognizing that you do have a lot of houses, it allows um single family dwellings, two family dwellings, semi- detached dwellings, town houses are permitted by what's called a conditional use to allow um the town council and planning commission to weigh whether or not a commercial use would most be to these particular properties. um as you radiate away from the four corners um it can be argued that on certain streets it's not as feasible uh

and less likely to have a commercial use compared to a residential use. So the applicant is this is a very um I think you would uh everyone would um recognize that this is a very unique parcel very uniquely configured parcel. Um it is done at a approximately 45 degree angle that essentially connects up on the uh on the southeast face of East North Street almost at the intersection of North Lincoln Street. It's a vacant lot. Originally, it was a single family dwelling which was uh demolished in here in um in 2008. The former two st twotory dwelling was demolished. Um all of the um if you go on north uh north Lincoln Street that with the exception of Lincoln Place on the very southern corner by Centennial all it is essentially surrounded by single family dwellings. Um once you face on uh North Main Street um going down almost to um essentially going down all the way to East Mount Vernon. All of those lots are served by single family dwellings or single family dwellings that have been converted to multifamilies that have a couple different apartments in them. So um in terms of making a determination um whether or not something is best suited for commercial use, this is not on Main Street, this is not on Commerce Street. Those are the two primary streets where I think most people would recognize that a commercial use would best be suited for. Um, prior to the applicant purchasing the property, I did get a couple of questions about a couple of interests about putting a a commercial or a mixeduse building on the property. They they chose not to move forward. I think based more primarily on

the configuration of the property. It's a relatively small property with a very odd configuration. The um what the applicant is proposing. So this is the aerial imagery of course showing the single family dwellings on both Lincoln Street and on North Main Street. The applicant is proposing that this um approximately quarter acre lot be subdivided into uh to accommodate what's called a semi- detached or essentially a twin or duplex dwelling. Um given the configuration of the lot, staff agrees that this is likely the the best use for this particular vacant parcel and similar to what was there previously. Um so with that um now any new dwelling is required to adhere to the plan village community bulk standards. So the plan village community bulk standards require that dwellings have a minimum setback of 10 ft and a maximum of 20. So essentially that that would be to to fit in with the the character of the downtown neighborhood. So and the applicant in this particular uh instance would um would adhere to that. What what is being requested this evening um is to be able to do a semi- detached dwelling. If if that use is permitted um recommendation given by the planning commission and approved by the town council, the applicant would then go through the minor subdivision process to subdivide this single lot into two lots and then they would get a building permit to construct both dwelling units adhering to the required bulk standards. So, does um does does any of the planning commission members have a question about the application?

Anybody any commissioner? No, I just I would like to make a comment and that is thank you for putting driveways in and not requesting off- streetet parking. Mr. McGrant. Yeah. No, it looks good to me. Okay. Thank you very much. Um, anything else you'd like to add? No. Um, any comments? I don't have any comments. I didn't know if you were looking at me or you looking at I'm looking at Do you got anything? We give a speech. No. Like Did he do Okay. He did great. All right. I'd hire him.

You're You're ready. Well, don't push it. Um, we're not ready to get We're not ready to get rid of him. is a problem here. Um, so he covered what you needed to have covered and you guys feel comfortable with what's proposed. Okay. Because we're not really talking about adding anything. Yes, you're up. Uh, have any concerns come in from neighboring property owners? Anything from post? No, I have received um I received two letters of support today actually, which I was going to read into the record if I like to. Yeah, just enter them into the record if there if there's two letters of support. Thank you.

Um Okay. And you know, with with that said, I mean, um basically looking at it, we're recommending it to council for for them to go ahead and and approve this um to allow it to go to to go forward. Um so, actually, I feel personally myself just to say it's a lot better use of it than it would be a commercial use for that neighborhood. So we we want to keep it moving so it gets done quickly. Is there a motion to approve the or make a recommendation to council for approval?

I'll make a recommendation to approve to council to move forward. All right. Is there a second? Second a motion. Michael McGrath. Thank you. Any questions? All those in favor say I. I. So carry. Thank you all very much. You may stay or you may gracefully leave. Thank you. Have a great night. No, we we will. Thank you. So the you're throwing me off. You had no I did not. It was pretty straightforward, you know. I'm on my like fake meeting now. This is the kind of thing I would love to see come to us more often.

They've got driveways. They're not asking for on street parking. They're like they're reasonable. It's all And the sad part about it is that that lot is one that is part of our downtown on that side is not square. Yeah. You know, none of those. They're they're strange. Nothing square. Yeah. Yeah. All righty. You never know what you're going to find in downtown. I want to thank you all for that. Uh the next item is a discussion. Previously approved Thomas England House mixed use. Yes. I'm gonna try to keep Mike Reed's um blood pressure down to a

so as you may remember in this went to planning commission in 2019 and was got final approval in January of 2021 um um Liboreio 3 which is Lubamuno um there's approximately 3.3 acre parcel um that was combined to um as shown here on this example uh for two mix three two three story mixed juice buildings. Um they were going to keep the existing Papa and John building and then behind the two mixed use buildings was going to be a threetory 24 unit apartment building. Um last year they came forward and they did all the site work. They essentially put the parking lot in as you you I'm sure you all have been by this site. They've put in the sidewalks, they put in the curbing, they put in the parking lot. um in a couple months ago, I want to say about two months ago, right around Thanksgiving, they got approval to put in the 24 unit, three-story apartment building to the rear uh as dictated in the plan. However, um a little over a month ago, I received um rather than a three-story mixed juice building, they um provided a uh they proposed doing two one-story commercial retail buildings similar well essentially at this design, two identical buildings. I sent this to you all and you all expressed frustration um and requested that Leon Lu Ramuno come and speak in person with their engineer about that you would like to see a mixed juice building since that time um and they were going to come in December and they they had something came up and they they had a meeting come up and they couldn't make it. So, in the interim, what they did do, and this was included in your packet, they came up with a design for a three-story mixed juice building. The bottom would front US13.

The the top would be facing towards the the back of the site, towards the uh apartment building. Um, so it would include a a brick storefront on the first floor and um it would be Hardy Plank on the second and third floor with um you know kind of broken up every so many the when I spoke to Lou Ramuno on um on yesterday he said he will move forward with this design for one of the buildings right now and then he will make a determination whether or not he wants to build another one on down the line. And if he wants to do something different, he is under the understanding that he would have to come to the planning commission to explain himself and provide an explanation as to why he's not he's building something substantially different than what he was presented and builded, excuse me, that he presented and was approved for. So, do you have any questions? But this is what he uh when I spoke to him on the phone yesterday, he said he would be applying for a building permit for one at this time. So essentially the southern we can go back. So the bottom of the bottom threetory mixed juice building, he would be applying for a building permit um immediately and then he would revisit um the second one at a later date. So he asked not to and he's in Florida.

Okay. Um questions. I I saw you you were very very polite. Yes. You know very

I don't want to interrupt. If he comes back to build the northern site, would that be anything under the sun or do we get to say we prefer one design or the other? If he Well, so the design of the building is something that is reviewed and approved by staff. However, if he comes back with a a design for a three-story mixed juice building and it meets the design requirements of the underlying zoning district, it will not come back before you. However, at your request based upon the discussions that from the email that came out, um if he comes back and says, "I want to do a one-story," then we can request that he come and give an explanation.

But if he decides that he's going to apply for a three-story building, then we can uh that that's not going to trigger any review by you. I just I have a just a question maybe just my ignorance. Um he's proposing apartments or whatever you want to call them, condos above the retail space. Apartment apartments above the retail space. Is that a restriction to say, you know, cuz he he says he's going to build apartments, but then he makes second floor retail space. That would that would he would not be permitted. He's not permitted. Okay.

That would not be permitted. He cannot do the sherin option. Okay. Thank you. The Oh, I forgot I built three extra stories. So, Mr. Chairman, yes, Mr. McGrath.

I I just have a couple comments about this whole thing. F first off um you know within the constraints of the of the design that's approved and so on there are possibilities of variations. We know that and that's you know on other contexts we've learned that and and this is another example. Um but my point with the developer would be two things two points. One is that this planning commission uh reviews and approves plans uh with the main focus of our interest is representing the public's interest and the interest of the community is represented in the policies and the ordinances which we've in some cases developed and approved and the town council has approved as being the framework. Um and and so when we see plans um that tend to fulfill those objectives, those goals, we look upon them favorably. Um sometimes we have technical problems. Sometimes they don't meet the code and they have to be changed. Other times developers are given quite a bit of flexibility within the code after the plan's approved even. Um, my second point though is that developers have a vested interest in two ways. One, they have an interest in the community because that's where they're going to market their product, right? They they can't produce products that are, you know, not wanted in that community or they're not going to succeed. I don't mean from a statutory standpoint but you know from a salailability standpoint but it also means that they are living in the context their business and this these people do a lot of business in our

town. So they should be very interested in keeping a good relationship with the town government and this planning and zoning commission because in the long haul it's going to benefit them and if they, you know, will listen from time to time to what our thoughts and analysis are about the demands for housing in the community, you know, they will prosper along with the town. Um, and so I I'm I'm sort of concerned about these kinds of changes after we've already reviewed and the town council's approved and everything's going forward and then a developer says, "Well, you know, within the constraints of the law, I can do the following." Which is different. That that really doesn't benefit anybody. Uh, I don't think. And then the last thing I'm going to say is that um our interest in the long run and I've talked with Jeremy about this and even a little bit of discussion with Barrett is um and this is apart from this particular case is that we might want to look at um you know future changes to our ordinances that make provision for affordable housing. Look, we we know that both in this community, across Delaware, and throughout this region at least, affordable housing is a serious public policy problem. It's a it's a it's an issue. Um, and as our demographics change, we know what those demographics are. I don't, you know, we can't always, it's it's easy to say, well, developers will build what people will buy. Well, developers, that may be true, but my experience of longtime working with developers is that they they try to maximize their profits, and there's nothing wrong with that, but that may not always meet all the communities needs, right? Um, and so I just say that in this case, uh, you

know, at least in my in my personal interest in this, I look favorably on this whole project because it not only met our standards for trying to create mixed uses, uh, with possibilities for people, you know, dealing with commerce by walking or nearby to where they live, mixed use that provided some apartments that hopefully were affordable. um you know and and so those things were all very positive. Now that it's changed, I have to tell you my outlook on this project if it doesn't go that way is negative. Now it may not be a legal statement, but it's you know, as I say, I think we all need to we all need to get along here. So, um I I think developers need to be made aware if they if they need to be that it's to their benefit to get along with the commission, get along with the town council and get along with the community. And we may need to look at some ordinance changes to like some jurisdictions have already done. And I know in New Jersey it's been done for many years in some of their counties where there's a certain requirement once you reach a certain level of development uh that a certain number of the units be made affordable according to the local standards of affordability. So we might want to look at that too. And these are apartments as I understand it and not it won't be a condominium arrangement. So hopefully it'll be something that'll meet some of the needs of young families, senior citizens, um you know, undermployed people, which we probably got a lot of those in Kent County. We know based on our median household income. So um you know, those are my thoughts, Mr. Chairman. And I think we just need to well if if we have a discussion in the future with this developer, I'd like to remind that developer of some of those concerns.

Thank you. Can I make a quick comment on what I had said before about changing the use of a building? I don't have a second floor plan. I have a retail plan. you know, in the packet that was given to us, I have a first floor plan for the retail space and I have a third floor plan for the apartments. The uh so when u to answer your question um when the site plan is approved, okay,

that is approved for essentially what is shown here. So 11,675 ft of commercial space and 48 dwelling units which are 12 second and third floor units the two mixed use building. So a total of 24 apartment units in the mixed juice buildings and 24 units in the apartment building. So that locks down what the uses are. But the site plan doesn't necessarily dictate. They then have to apply for a building permit for essentially the envelope of that building. Okay. So which we don't we don't we don't right no I just just given reputations and given the conversations that we're having you know

conversations that just I just want to make clear are on the record right okay on the record okay to to your point though

and I'm sure Jeremy does this I'm absolutely confident th this commission and the planners of the town me need to be in constant in communication with the building inspection department too because as we've discussed anything from, you know, landscape plantings to wall configurations, you know, they all come down at the end of the day of of building inspections and uh a lot of these details, you know, we'll never see until there's a sudden blow up and it has to go to a a variance hearing or, you know, some other unoured event. So I've always thought in my career as a land use planner need to be in constant communication with the building inspector so everybody on our side of the table is you know singing from the same song book.

So essentially just to do a rehash in terms of um so

I I think I think we know where we're at Jeremy. I really do on this. I I I just think from the standpoint of I don't want it going much further than a work. You're all getting ready into a workshop thing where the whole purpose behind this was the developer would come to us this evening to have explained to us why he was changing what this commission had approved because the bottom line here is is it's what I sometimes remind the commissioners on when we zone something something you know a zone and they say they're going to put the XYZ Z building there and 3 months later they put the ABC building and you go that's not what I wanted. Well, you don't have a choice because the zone says it's allowed. Well, guess what? That's what the issue is here. I don't think there's a one of us that wanted the Carter Road singlestory buildings front running US13 here. But guess what? We approved we approved this to allow that to be there. that isn't the site plan we approved, but that use building can be approved and that puts us in a, you know, so I wanted to hear from the developer why he was doing this because I will say and and I've thought about this after almost 40 years on planning and zoning board of adjustment and council. This is the first time I remember a downsize to a project. I mean, it's just the first time and I would have said that this evening to the gentleman. I just don't understand. Now, I would imagine I would have heard

economics. Okay. But so I kind of lean toward the fact is we even changed the process. And Jeremy, I look at you because you were instrumental in to make sure that we didn't get to this kind of point that we have a a process that they come in and they say, "This is what we'd like to do." And what do you call that first committee? They meet concept.

Yeah. The concept, you know, and we go through that whole process. You know, we didn't have this when we had one meeting. We we actually had two meetings with him. You know, so I'm not saying that he did anything, but I just wanted to understand. That being said, Scott, you bring up something very valid. Mike brings up something very valid and it's something that I would like to see that if his commissioners would like to see our attorney look at the fact is what guidelines can we put in on projects being downsized? And I'm not saying, you know, we're we're going to change, you know, because again, once we approve this, Jeremy's world is the one that says, "Oh, yes, the facade of the building meets our standards." What I'm saying is, if you're going to go from three apartment buildings to one, and we all were excited about three apartment buildings. Why? because maybe back in concept we could have handled this better or then my attorney could tell me you don't have a leg to stand on Biff or that's the time that you shut the operation down that you don't reszone it that you you know whatever the the cuz how many times do we have something that comes through they say I'd like to do this but I need the zoning changed

this wasn't a zoning change I understand but I'm saying that we have to have some mechanism and maybe this is the only time it'll ever happen. But that being said, look at we can definitely look at an ordinance amendment to again as you pointed out this is not something that we usually deal with. Usually it's people wanting to go beyond what they've gotten. Right. In this instance, it's unique, but we can look at putting some protections in place so we can, you know, come back for

change of content. when Barrett and I spoke um we have when we wrote section 7 of the ordinance which is essentially the site plan process when we wrote we wrote that process can't remember 2022 maybe I think early 2022 um we have an we have a section for how site plans the amendment may be amended and what would trigger a re-review by the approval by by the approving authority right

um we the language in there states that If it increases by a certain percentage, and I I can't remember the exact language, if it increases in size by a certain percentage, then it has to come back to whoever approved, whether it's the council or the uh planning commission for reapproval, essentially an amendment to an an already approved site plan. what we can potentially add and maybe Barrett and I can come up with language is if something a little bit more vague which I don't want to get us in trouble but something like if something that would significantly change the character of the approved development something along those lines because a one-story retail building is very different from a three-story mixed juice building and something that would give staff the ability to trigger um an amendment amendment process that would require it to come back to the planning commission

and and I believe as you're looking at that and understand you're you're being cautious and which is you know and and Barrett won't now say anything because he'll be utterly cautious but I do like the idea that what you're saying is to the developer that they'll know upfront also that if you make a change this way you're going to have to go back to planning and zoning and back to the council because I don't want to be bypassed I don't want them just going back to council if it's a um what is it le a or whatever you know what a site plan I I want them to have to come back here y

you know um and I'm not trying to hold their feet to the fire but but I'm also it may be something that in the future a developer may go I really don't want to do that I I really don't want to do that right so if if to the commissioner there's if there's no one has an objection um because you know when we do these kind of things and ask Barrett to work on it um Jeremy doesn't cost us a dime to send his suggestion to him but you know we're we're paying for Barrett's kids to go to college now after what I read today is get them to where is it Yale

Yale yeah you know where where they're going to get free you know, well, you might make more than that, but anyway. Um, so I I I really if it No objection. Okay. Thank you very much, Jeremy. I I do appreciate, you know. No, I understand the position that you were put in is not fair to yourself or any staff member because basically, as you all are well aware, he could have just approved it. Mhm. Right. And then we all would have been riding by going, "Okay, you understood what I was gonna say." All right, good. Mr. Chairman, yeah.

Well, one last thought from Mike Mcgran is I think I think what we want to do, right, and what you've just been discussing with Barrett and Jeremy is uh we want we want this to go from administrative to a deliberative process, right? Y

um and to a vote of some kind and I always think in those kind of things and this just something a comment to Barrett. I mean there may be justifications. I mean sometimes these guys come in and say oh the economics wasn't right and they never explain what the hell they're talking about right and they think that as long as they say something it makes it all good. I mean, if they could bring in, for instance, if this guy had come in and said, "Look, you know, we we built a hundred apartments last year and we've only rented 50 of them and we just decided, you know, we can't rent apartments in Kent County. There's just there's too many." That would be one thing. But if he just comes in and say, "Oh, you know, we've we've decided we're carrying enough debt, so we can't finish this project." Well, that's more or less, you know, developer standard BS. So, I think if if we can build something into these changes we're talking about that that at least gives us an opportunity to hear a legitimate explanation, then um you know, I'm all in favor of it.

All right. Thank you. Anything else, Mr. Rothwell? That's it. You're good.

I don't have any applications for next month. The next application that I am expecting, I have two applications that I'm expecting. One is Ducks Unlimited at um recently purchased 129 North Union Street, the old um I think it was a canery and a button factory at one time. Then it was a town electric building. They are going to be doubling the size of their facility. Um I'm just waiting on the plans to come in and um Mr. Johnson um that you approved further reszoning to c um to um corridor commercial uh for the old um florist and daycare. You know, his potential mixed juice building. I would expect that in the next month or two. Those are the only two applications I'm envisioning at this time. Um I did get word that Applebees is not moving forward. So, you're not going to see Applebees. So, no good eating in the neighborhood, huh? Still have spart a diner.

Yes, ma'am. It'll save me money. My kids love that Applebee's. So, um, if we are to work on an ordinance, I just wanted to hear if it would be grandfathering in some of the things like we've just passed, you know, the planned village communities, like if they could, you know, be grandfathered in that they don't have to come back to us if they substantially change their, you know, sites. So that's something that Barrett and I would I don't know if that's a consideration because I'd hate to see that come, you know, away from us, but that's something that Barrett and I can discuss and come to a resolution. I don't know. Yeah. Um at at a certain point, a project becomes legally vested. Yeah. Um and Barrett and I can talk about what's the appropriate trigger time.

No pun intended. Just you know the appropriate time that it becomes effective. So, um, you did pay attention to them classes, didn't you? I'm trying. No, you're not trying. That's good. And you know just to emphasize that you know sometimes when they go when they when their architect comes to build a plan they might get it might be approved for 130 foot long building mixed juice building but when they go to design it with the hallways and everything like that in the units they say well you know 122 feet 122 foot long building is is more appropriate you know so they sometimes there's a minor variation but it's still a three-story mixed juice building. Mhm. So, and I think we would certainly want to keep that

Yeah. that flexibility for when they apply for a building permit, but not change the character of what is being approved. Correct. And along the lines of that, if it's what we're approving as far as apartments, pretty well aligned with what the building code calls for, what the zoning ordinance calls for. Yes. This particular zoning ordinance calls for higher density development where multi-story buildings are strongly encouraged. They're not required, but they are strongly encouraged. Okay. All right. Um, anything Mike want? Mr. McGrath, anything you want to add? No, sounds good.

I'm done. You're You're done. That was it. Okay. Good. Okay. Um, just a few things, Jeremy, and I meant to send it today, but I was actually shoveling, which ice has not become my friend. H, what a mess.

I I guess so, I'm hitting you blindsided. You don't have to answer. Just it's something you could look into and report the next time we come back or whatever. The bus stop at the lab, I don't see the sign or the concrete pad they were going to put in. Don't answer that. Don't. It's just not there. um any information on on our zoning uh books because like today I did reread um on my phone which is a but you know is that book still I mean are they planning on printing that or

well what we're waiting on is the the company we we use MUN code and there's there's like a long delay in terms of when something is adopted and when it was so we some of these things haven't been updated yet. So, I will talk with Danielle who Okay. All right. Thank you. But there's a couple sections that have not unfortunat and one of them is the um which was approved a long time ago is the um the bulk standards table, right? Approved. Yeah. Probably been a year and a half ago. Yeah. Uh but that hasn't been put in the code. So, I I would rather not put some I'd rather not print anything out that is not complete. No, no. I I just and and I really believe that if it's online and it's, you know, there

not online yet. I know. But if it's online and and ready to go, probably the the next generation has no problem dealing with that. But I do at times like to have a hard copy. That's just me and institutional memory starts to go away. Um the other one was and again I do apologize. I do try to to let you know when I'm the email addresses. I spoke to the mayor about that. She said she was going to look into it. Um and um somebody sent me one. Yeah. Kelly to see if it works.

Okay, let me try it out because I haven't done that yet. I saw that that was approved for Kelly, but I think I may have at our next whatever next meeting we have, I may have our IT manager come and um either I will have him send instructions out to all the members or I can have him come to a meeting to walk you through how to set it up. Okay, that might be good. whatever you do you would you prefer him to come in person or would you just have him just a letter just a just a send a send a send the information out to us when we're ready to go and those of us that are incompetent and can't do it we'll meet with him and go from there

um you know a better shot on that uh thank you Gabby for writing that down. Did you write the incompetent part or just the whole thing? Um, and the last thing is, and this is for you, u, oh, besides all the good work you do, don't give me that look like that is we we have to every year I was reading today, so you created this problem, all right, by educating me. We have to elect a chairman and vice chairman every year. So would you I don't know how you keep the agendas filled out or you know if there's certain things but in May at our May meeting we should be electing a chairperson and a chair vice chair. So I would ask that that just be added on there so it doesn't slip through the cracks. Um okay anybody else have anything? Caddyy Kathy down there. You got anything to say?

No. Okay. All right, without objection, this meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Thanks everybody. See you everybody. Doug out. Yes, street. They shut my street down today.