Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

to call meeting to order at 7:30. Roll call. Liam Johnston here. Tom Graphanino here. Link Colligan here. Lisa Kkler here. Phil Dorio is here. And we have Tim Hill, CPA attorney via Zoom. Um, first order of business is to review and approve uh the August 27th, 2025 minutes. Can I have a motion to approve the minutes? I'll make a motion. I'll second it. All in favor? I We have uh uh two applications to discuss on our work session agenda tonight. The first is for 80 North Ferry Road, Sylvester Manor. Uh Christina, do we have any correspondence on that? Oh, sorry. Mr. Johnston is going to recuse himself.

Yes, he's a nearby neighbor. The correspondent in support of the application was received from Sarah Thoben and Paul Skinner. Also, correspondence in support of the application was received from Edward Schillinberg and letter of opposition was received from Mike Gainor. Thank you, Christina. Um, all right. So, it's been a been a long road here and

um I I'm not sure how all of you feel. I would like, you know, if possible for us to make a take a quick run through that list and see if there are activities we all can agree like, hey, this is something that fits in and is we can draw some sort of a nexus to an educational institution. Um, and then if there are things that are may or nos, we can talk about those as well. Does that seem like the good pathway for you all? Yep.

Um, all right. So, Christina, is it possible that you can pull that up for us? [Music] All right. Um, maybe we could just start at the top. Yeah. Yeah.

Archaeology workshops. Uh I I can see how that uh has you know some educational aspect to it and um there's certainly some archaeology that has been done at the manor. Yeah, UMass Boston's there for a long time. All right. Um Black History Month. I mean they have a history of African-American enslavement there. It's I guess something um community events at the farm. Christina, can you slide that over so we can see the frequency and the Is it possible to like make that all fit on the screen or

I can definitely make it small, but it would be harder for you. All right, I see. I see. Tell me where you want to go. Go ahead. Blow it up then a little bit. I'm sorry. I can read it off of this tiny. Right. You're a little younger than I am. Easter egg hunt and veggie derby two or three times a year. Spring, summer, fall. Um, are we I'm not I don't feel I feel that it's in line the derby especially with what they're doing there. Okay. Creekide concert. It's in cooperation with Suffach County Parks and Wreck.

Yeah. one or two for summer. I I have to say um I'm mixed emotions on this. You know, the the one from that they spoke about last summer, they said that, you know, whatever it was, uh it just covered expenses. Um and the band I think was Los Aeros, you know, I don't know how that ties into the um educational I'm not saying I'm I'll start a maybe column. Okay. Okay. Are you going to be the noteaker here for now? Awesome. Uh the foam fall farm festival. I think that's a big roast and family fun at the farm. That's you know directly associated with the farm

porticulture garden preservation and rehabilitation. Yeah. Yeah. Guided tours uh 8 to 12 per year. It was the fourth year in 2025. I think that's fine. Yep. Uh Junth at the Afroindigenous Burial Ground. Sure. Mhm. Um porch talks um at the manor house 4 to6 per summer and 2025 was the second year. Those are related to topics at the farm.

Okay. the sculpture at Sylvester Manor. Um, outdoor sculpture garden um with kickoff artist reception in the old growth forest trail about 100 people at all. So I have a little bit of a harder time drawing an axis on that one. Okay. I mean that I I think that the you know the historic the gardens are an historic part and the old growth forest is a historic part of that. So it's bringing people into that. Okay. So I'll put it still in the column the maybe column.

Um Shakespeare. Yep. Shakespeare at the manor once a year two or three performances. That's another one that for me it's a little um and the time period is valid. You know that that the manner um well it actually predates Shakespeare predates.

I mean I think if you're thinking of it as an educational institution yeah there you know you're you're bringing that knowledge and history to the community. So it depends in what light you're thinking. If you're thinking of it in light of the mission of Sylvester Manor versus what they're asking for, which is an educational facility, maybe help me out here. Well, what what what's the mission that you're that you referenced before of Sylvester Manor? Cuz you referenced like the farm, right? So now we're talking about two different pieces of Sylvester Manor. There's farm aspect, but now there's the educational,

right? And so for me, the educa the educational thing I think has is I I'll say has three sides to it. The first is the farm, right? They have they have interns working there in the summer and they have programs built around um educating people concerning the farm. Um the second is uh the uh African-American slave um background there. That's another uh educational part. Another third part for me to see indigenous the the uh uh

Native Americans. Those are sort of I guess the three uh pillars of of the educational bit that I see happening there at Sylvester Man. Okay, why don't we keep going and then um we'll have that on the maybe list. Shakespeare unless you want to talk about that further right now. Okay. Um the tea and tree holiday celebration. So I would say that there there is some actual like history there. It's an old Alice Fisk tradition.

Yeah. And it does bring people into the historic house that is about to be rehabilitated. So everybody good with that one, Lisa? Um, again I because it's a windmill and it's farm. That's the only connection that I'm seeing. I'm just having a hard time following your watch. Bring you into the manor house. But it's actually in the manor house. Yeah, it's the tea and tree is in the manor house. The tea and tree. Oh, right. That was the one that was suspended. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, got it. Yeah. The next Okay. Unless you want to talk about

No, I was thinking about the I was thinking about the windmill lighting. Sorry. Windmill lighting. Okay. The next is the wellness programs. Um this is like where they're bringing fitness people in. Uh I kind of don't see the connection there. I for me this is um but I it's it's hard for me to see the the nexus there. Okay. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Okay. Uh the windmill lighting that is on the windmill farm. It's a new winter holiday event. It was in le of tea tree. I knew there was a connection. Yeah.

Everybody feeling like that's I don't want to be by a homog. But if we're going to be consistent with our reasoning that is maybe. Okay. A maybe. Unless again you do the reasoning that it is part of the farm. part of the farm. And this is where the the you can stretch just about anything, right? To be educational and to be it's it's uh educational programming. Oh, okay. There's a whole bunch. There's the farm apprentice, the farm summer farmers, the forest program, which uh Stephen said may not occur next year.

Okay. And and one thing about the forest program, so right now they have that that that's a lease arrangement or it is. And so my I'm not so much concerned about that cuz I think that that's a a there is an actual educational aspect to it. But I am concerned about the possibility of further leases to do things by that you know that for-profit or or even not other not for-profit corporations are coming in there and and doing things. So I just want to throw that out there as as a thought.

Okay. And then the higher learning partnerships with Bard, Colombia, NYU, UMass, Michigan, all that stuff is great. Okay. Um field trips at the primary and secondary levels. And then school break programs. Those are almost like camps, I would say. The school break programs. I mean, I I think the field trips are great. You know, the the whole camp business is I don't know. It's I understand it's it's a fundraiser for them and there is some some educational aspect to it. I I guess um I don't know how

I mean to say that they can't do any fundraising there is is you know that would be um not not a good thing because they have to sustain themselves. I I I me I want to make sure that they are able to uh do their thing. I don't want to hamstring them, but I also want to make sure that we we wind up in a place where

down the road um we don't say a use is okay and then that use is greatly expanded down the road. So that's, you know, uh the the the the camp thing is I could see that it could just get bigger and bigger, I guess. Yeah. So I don't know. It's if you all feel like the the um Tom and Lisa, you feel like the the the the summer camp and the school break things are uh have can we can draw some nexus into the educational institution. I think probably

I don't see I don't see how you can not if you're going to say that field trips which also incorporate education is different than a summer camp cuz they're doing educational activities at camp. So yeah, you can't have one without the other. No. Okay. Uh then the summer youth programs. Yeah, I think that's what Yeah. Yeah. Okay. um historic preservation, the burial ground studies, the collections preservation, and the nonprofit and municipal partnerships, and the Cornell cooperative spat program. Those all seem very much in line with their mission.

Land Trust is um it's a one event. It's a picnic. Yeah. I'm not sure. I don't remember. Picconic Picnic on PLT preserved land. Oh, I see. Cuz they have they're part of the That's right. Okay. They're a partner. Yeah. Uh the Pearlman music program um instrument petting zoo for children.

Well, let's go back to the Pearlman music program because if you're if you're questioning the Creek Side concert, what's the difference between that? I would say that Pearlman is a music place, a place where they're teaching music and the students are performing, whereas this is more like a concert. Okay. I just want to make sure that we're differentiating between the two. I would, you know, just that would be the the clear differentiation for me. Okay. Okay. It's it's just that, you know, they they list it as a recital. So, what's the difference between a concert and a recital? Oh yeah, they have children handling the instruments.

The actual students are performing. Yeah. What's the difference between that and a professional person performing? Then you're going to a show, right? It's a it's a paid performance. Okay. I just want to make sure we're very very clear in distinguishing this difference for the record. I mean, and there is no co there is they're not earning any money with this per. Not that that has to be a litmus test either. The although correct although for me it it would sell it a little bit more if in fact this was a once a year fundraiser but you know the there uh someone there from their group said that they just covered the cost side.

Okay. Can I offer something that may be of no help at all, but just to uh interject, please. Um, so you know, the the section that they're proceeding under is, you know, that catchall section that would have something be in the same general character as, and in this case, they're specifically pointing to an educational institution. So it's it's whether the use is of the same general character of another permitted use.

So um the you know this this may or may not be a distinction you want to draw but the the the permitted use is of an educational institution. So using property um for what you know how in the same way and character that a educational institution would use it in terms of the intensity of the the use and the character of the use. Um so that might be something to keep in mind as opposed to just whether or not something is educational. It's it's whether the use is like the use of an educational institution. And again, that may be a distinction without a difference, but um just to tailor it to our code provision, that is, you know, the nexus that they're trying to operate under. Uh the public library talks. Um that seems

Yeah. And the story time. Yeah. Public library. Uh open space, recreation, and community benefit. Um Oh, that's a category. Yeah. Sorry. Constructed wetlands, wastewater, public restrooms. Um name those are existing, right? Right. And and also they they come now with some a they some commercial kitchen in in a building now. That's where they're doing their baking, right? But it's not a for catering. It's just for the It's it's there's nothing to right now to prevent it to

Do you want me to put the commercial kitchen as a concern on the maybe list? Sure. Yeah. It's with the wastewater treatment, right? So that's it's a it's a precursor to the IIA system, right? Okay. And so that's they put that in and uh Okay. Uh, the deer hunting program, the town managed deer hunting program, the trails, the Quaker meeting, um, water access at Dearing Harbor, um, so they have they have a little dock out there.

Yes. Yes. Okay. And then the private events. So, we've got the small gatherings such as birthdays, celebrations of life, rehearsal, dinners, and reunions. I I would like to have that on the maybe list. Yeah. And then the large gatherings such as proms. Um, what does that say? Rental. Oh, rental or donation space to partner organizations and weddings. Yeah. I'd like. So, the two private events we'd like to put on the maybe list.

Okay. So, now that Timided us on the catch all phrasing, which I I I don't even like that term, but can you read the language of it again? uh if the use is like that of the use of an educational institution.

Well, I'll just from the section so it's any use after listing you know the uses which includes educational institution any use of the same general character as any of the uses specifically permitted in this section. So it's whether the use is of the same general character as the use by an educational institution.

Okay. So what do you want me to reread what's on the maybe list? Um one second. Did we didn't have the farm tot thing on here that somehow that's not on the list. Whatever. And I think that's a great thing. Do we have that on here? It was good. That be considered a private event.

It was on there. I might have a fun lady, wasn't it? Have a lot of people. It's not on here. Let's see. Put 400. That's from the PO land trust. Yeah. Well, whatever. It's not on here, but I I say that's their primary fundraiser. It's very in keeping with their mission. Yeah. I mean, their use. All right. So, do we want to run through this maybe list again here and try to work some of this out? Uh, do you want me to list them all or just one at a time?

Uh, it's up to you. Let me list them all because they kind of fall into categories. Creekide concert, the sculpture garden, the Shakespeare, the wellness programs, the windmill farm lighting, we talked about the size of the camp, and then the commercial kitchen and the private events such as weddings and parties.

Yeah. So, for me, the first thing I would like to well like to the first thing I feel like I want to say no to is the private events. I feel like I I don't should I don't know that there should be a birthday party, bar mitzvah, a kinsetta, a wedding. Um it's I my concern is is I don't want to approve something that turns this into down the road when there's a whole bunch of different people there an events facility. And um so that would be really is that our only way of preventing that?

I I do you want to say no to at all or I know we they brought up and we talked about limiting limiting the number per year that are allowed. I don't know how the board feels about that as also an avenue.

Um but one of the big issues was impact on the community. you know, with the size of events, um, and in that whole broad list of everything that we have there from the Creek Side, um, concerts and the sculpting, like how does that benefit the community? How does that impact the community negatively and parking and amount of people that it can draw? Um, I think that's one piece. But as far as the big events, when you look at that and the time frame of spring, summer, and fall, if that was a even just limited to a Friday and Saturday or Saturday and Sunday event, that could be eight a month, all spring, summer, and fall. And that's a lot. That that's a huge impact. It's almost like you opening a whole can of worms if you say you can have a certain private event but not another certain private event. It seems like a category

and and and I would too that it's at the end of the list for a reason.

Um you know Tom was talking about parking and this and that is that you know uh Mr. Gainer was up here and he he whatever he spoke about a lot of things but one of the things he spoke about was he was sitting out there one day and uh when camp was uh starting and uh I had a similar experience. I was driving on Mano Waring Road and I was two back at the stop sign and people were pulling in for the summer camp, right? It was drop off time. It was a few minutes before 9 and at the same time people were trying to pull out and people who had pulled in from 114. They were going south on 114 and turned left into there. Then we're having to back out to let cars out. Um, whatever. This is going to be something for site plan review down the road, but

it's each use is innocuous, but each use really has to be looked at, I think. Um, just to make sure that we're doing the right thing here. Um, I I am concerned about the private party thing. Um, I, you know, I I just I I feel like it opens a door to interpretation of

Yeah. And you know that's we have uh um restaurants, Legion, firehouses, um hotels that are businesses that employ people that are happy to accommodate weddings and birthdays and what other whatever other events there are. Um and and uh I I don't know that the that allowing uh privates. The other thing is Sylvester Manor has not come to us with a plan for the future. I imagine that somewhere down the road that plan may come here to fruition. And when that plan comes, there can always be an ask for things that were denied. Now, um there's also the possibility of them asking for a change of zoning through the town board, right? that they could ask to be reszoned differently or they could come here for a use variance that would allow uses that are not allowed via a special permit.

Um so I don't think any door would be closed permanently um by saying no to something or other here. Um, and you know, and I do recognize they need to make money, but it sounded to me like they've hardly been doing any weddings and you know, uh, they have they get a lot of inquiries, right? And so, so the potential is there. We have to keep that in mind. Yes. I I would say that there's limitless potential. Yeah.

And so I I personally would try to not open that door. So that's I mean that's for me the biggest one. But let me maybe go through now one by one. Lyn, is that all right? So the Creek Side concert. Should I just butt in one more time?

Feel free. You know, so in addition to the the provision, you know, where there needs to be a nexus to the same general character as another use, obviously this is a, you know, application for a special permit. So the the ordinary standards um in, you know, 133-35 um are applicable to um the consideration. So in addition to you know looking at whether or not it's sufficiently akin to the use of an educational institution you know those overarching um standards that are in 1335 that you know that you've gone through many times for other applications um you know remain considerations here as well you know which are you Yep.

Numerous and maybe, you know, but if if there's something that's um a hard call, you know, you might look at it through the lens of those standards as well as the the Nexus standard. Okay. Um All right. Let's create side concert. What do you all think? We heard testimony. It made no money, attracted parking and traffic. It's joyful for sure. I mean, I'm

This is where I struggle because I love a Creek Side concert. Um and and look, even if it's not a fundraiser, it can be a fundraiser. I understand that. Mhm. Um but um you know I I would be okay. Let's say Creekide concert limited to one a year, two a year. I I don't know. Right now the frequency is one to two per summer, right? That's you know again I think it definitely needs if if we go ahead it needs to be limited. Yeah. Yeah. You want to say two a year? Two per year. That seems fair. I mean it's only in the summer. People aren't going to a creekide concert in December.

Does that seem like a reasonable thing, Tom, or do or do you Yeah, I mean, one or two I would stick with their guideline on it or what they their past practice one or two a summer. Okay. So, I mean, I I want to I don't I don't want to go anything something or something, right? It's uh two per year. Yeah. I mean, a a limit. And if they want to have it in the spring or the fall, they got, right? the sculpture garden. The way around that would be then just one one a month. One per month, you know, summer months. Then we're then you're giving them Yeah. I I'd rather just get Yep. Cap it. The sculpture garden.

I think the and the people entering the sculpture garden, it's more of a a slow flow. And I I do feel that it does bring you into the old um the old forest and I feel less inclined to I think there was also unless culture garden my unless my lines are off on the spreadsheet. It was based on the app that you download and then so you're you're learning about it's like self-guided.

Yeah. You're learning about the art. You're you're in you're in the historic forest and gardens of Sylvester Manor and you're learning about it through art. And I think like I think I think Lyn, you're right. It's a it's a low flow. It's it's not going to draw, you know, 300 plus people at one time. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Take that off the maybe. Okay. Shakespeare.

They've done this for how many years? Let's see. Many. I think um it didn't say this draws about 180 people and they do two or three performances. So I would say again if we cap it I think they've only done one in all honesty one a year. Yeah. So if we cap it at one or two a year or two whichever number we decide. Okay. Maybe we'll pick a number a little later. Yep. The wellness programs.

Um I'm a no on the wellness programs. It opens it up to being a yoga retreat. Uh we have places where you can go um on on the island here where businesses have whatever whether it's Pilates or bar or town programs that are I agree. Um you okay with that Tom? The windmill farm lighting. It's a Is that a one-off event? Yes. Um I think it's a positive community.

Yeah, I do too. Um, I don't know how you draw it into Well, it's a historic the windmill is historic to the farm and to the property and they are working toward making and I don't know if when the manor house is back up and running, they do the tea and tree holiday cuz they only did that in lie of Yeah, they did not being able to use the manor house and co and all that. So, all right. Okay. All right. And then we're down to the commercial kitchen and the private events. What was this?

Oh, campsize. Was there uh you were concerned about limiting the size of the camp? You know, I mean, is it sort of self-limiting based on the staff they're able to have there? Honestly, I don't think so. No. I think it might be self-limiting based on the number of children on Shelter Island, but um you know, I don't know if they're camping kids from off island. I kind of doubt it. Um you know, they it's I don't know if that's for us to state. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we start limiting camp here, what makes us like, are we going to limit the number of campers at Quinnipet or at Pearlman or, you know, I don't know if that's

We did kind of limit the number of campers at Pearlman, right? They were going to stay at the same number that they were before. That's based on it being residential, right? And quite a never been here. Um the I whatever I'm I'm I'm I'll I'll I'm easy on the camp thing I guess in the end. Okay. Then we have is everybody good with the camp? I mean it does I mean it does have a potential to to grow if all of a sudden they want to you know do a model like a Quinnip where they have overnight camp like I don't this is just we don't know.

Do you want to keep it to a day camp? I mean they don't even have the facilities. They don't have the facilities for it. They would have to come anyway if they wanted to expand in that respect anyway. Correct. So, I don't know if that's necessary to limit at this point. Okay. All right. So, um well, let's wait. They're going to have a day camp, right? That's that's what we Okay. So, that uh the commercial kitchen for me, I'd like to say that it's only allowed to use to produce things from the farm stand. Yes. That's that's reasonable.

That's you know a after that it seems like it turns into a commercial facility and again we have other places on the island that you know producing producing food for sale that are approved. Right. Yeah. Right. So, I I I don't I don't want the the kitchen to be used for anything but producing food from farm stand, which is what it's doing now. Yes, that's its current use.

All right. And then the big one is the private events that's on the back. That was that their last item. um birthday parties, celebrations of life, rehearsal dinners, reunions, proms, donation of space to partner organizations, weddings, or rental of the space to partner organizations. You know, the the only one that I would feel positive about is the prom just because you have the kids that have been going there for years will be able to have their prom there. But I don't, you know, I don't want to say yes to the prom. There are plenty of other prom we can Okay, that's what I say. I don't think we can single that out.

So then for me then I'd ra rather just say no to all of that stuff. I I just don't want to open the door to the events facility because once once you allow the use it's the door is open and it's going to be very hard to to close it. Um Tom, what do you think? Well, they show no endgame again. you know, spring, summer, and fall is could be anywhere from two events for the that time period to 20 or 30, you know, if you look at So, I'm buying

and I think like you said, the door is always open. Should they come back with a plan and they want to do something specific or they can always come back and

Okay. Then um they're they had you know sent us a letter a while back which was uh about their proposed conditions of approval. And so there's a couple things. um the the uh uh new construction. I I would like to say that no new construction without coming back with a hopefully some sort of a comprehensive plan for what's going to go on there. Um and apart from the restoration obviously. Yes. Of course, that's that's

um Tim, is that something that we can provision though or are they allowed to build what they're allowed to build based on zoning code? Well, we're we're carving out um a use that's not permitted. So, it's subject to being, you know, limited by conditions that, you know, reasonably bear on on what's being granted. So you you do have the ability to impose those types of conditions. They just need to be related to,

you know, if they needed to build a new and their language was non-aggricultural structures. If all of a sudden they needed to build a new shed or something for the livestock, right? Is that then something they would have to come back and get permission for if we put the provision in that? No. On those two lots. True.

I I would think you'd you know, you'd be in the best position if if there's proposed new construction. you know, it it goes through the original filter of the building inspector. And if if the purpose of the newly proposed structure um fits within a a use that, you know, is permitted in the code or is specifically identified by a decision that might be forthcoming now, then he could issue it. And if it's not then it would be denied and they're you know they would have their remedy to come to the board and and ask for it. Okay.

So and I mean technically right even even on the bigger lot here um you're allowed one primary structure and one accessory structure in terms of living space. Um, so yeah. So Tim, are you are you saying then that we should not specify that or that we should specify that? I think I think you can specify it particularly to the extent that they offered it. Um, but it's, you know, it's um, well, they they didn't offer what I'm talking

they offered no new permanent non-aggricultural structures greater than 1500 square feet. Yeah, I would say no new permanent non-aggricultural structures period. um you know and again it's or mechanical you know like that that function with the agricultural right look that and that can be up to the building inspector to determine if if if that would trigger their trip but I I I think that that clause though no new permanent non-aggricultural structures period um

yeah I don't have that list in front of me right at the moment but Okay. Yeah. I I recall and the you know each one of those includes with those limiting provisions includes with it an embedded grant of something. Um right like if it's no more than then it means that we're giving them up to what they're you know self-imposing as a limitation. So I I think any any conditions or limitations, you know, should be, you know, of our own creation. Sure.

Um all right. Um are there other things that we need to think about with this application right now? Oh, I so I just wanted to touch touch on the the possible leasing of property in the future about the school and stuff. Not just the but just as a as a thing. Um you know uh you know there's well they

Sylvester Manor is not allowed to be a school according to their bylaws but they lease land to a school. Um, I would really want to make sure that we're not just we're not creating a sort of uh I don't know the opportunity for people to come in and uh because they're not Sylvester Manor and they're not maybe limited by what we're saying although this is going with the land um that that I don't know that that other businesses start getting run at so I don't know would that be a condition

Tim is some can we do something where we uh limit uh leasing of land within there or is that not something we can or should do? Uh, no, it's certainly something you could do. And I mean, even just with in the broad sense that um, you know, it's wouldn't that that anything that's proposed? Um, I mean, is there is there one of the is there something on the list that we know to be a product of them? Just the school, but they but they that's the only one.

Yeah. The only one. They said they weren't sure that that was going to happen again. We were just concerned about the kids entering any like structures that weren't approved or safe or whatever, but that is the only least thing that I think we know about. That is correct. Yep. Again, that we know at this point, you know, then there may be some great idea for doing something down the road, but for that, I'd like to see that they they need to come back that look, the public is entitled to a hearing on something. Y, right? Um so a condition then it is and so I don't you know

I mean we can have an overarching condition or limitation you know um that nothing herein shall be deemed grant of any use not um previously um engaged in to date. Um, and that may be hard to police, but we you do have, you know, a fairly detailed index of what they represented they do do and the frequency at which they do it. Um, so you know that that might not be a perfect uh governor on the situation, but it it would be something to

Well, they would advertise them for sure. So, you know, we we have a hearing next week, right? I I'm a little concerned because it's going to take Tim a time to really draw this up and I don't want to wind up looking at this the day of or the day before and trying to sort through it. you know, if if it's all right with all of you, um I would like to maybe ask Tim to put together a preliminary draft of of a resolution for us and we adjourn this to the next work session where we could review, you know, we could re like hopefully Tim, you could produce that for us maybe in a week and then we would have a couple weeks to take a good look at it before our next work session because I I I just don't want to be rushed. I if in order for Tim for you to produce that, do you need us to go through the checklist tonight or after

the 1335 checklist? Yeah, I don't think we do. We do that for this before. Yeah. So, do do we what check what checklist did you mean? Special permit. Special permit. Okay. Yeah. We need to know we need to go through that before you produce a draft of the resolution. Correct. Well, it depends what you want, how drafty you want the draft. I I could do a draft based on tonight's drafting

discussion, but um otherwise yes, it would need to at least in at some level um go through that. Um, but you would have, you know, the alternative is you'd have the the working draft uh to to work from while you perhaps fine-tuned it at the next meeting by going, you know, step by step through those checklists. But, um, obviously I can't I can't make those findings for you,

right? And that I don't want to put you in a position where you are doing that which is why I don't know if we should go through this checklist now so that there's some basis for you to write a proposal or I'm sorry a resolution but you just have to tell us what the process is when we work from the resolution to the checklist. That seems backwards. Yes. Yeah. All right. Let's let's give it a run here. All right, Lynn, it's all you. You want me to do it?

No. Okay. All right. So, the general suitability is the proposed use the most appropriate uses of this land. I call it the most appropriate use. What do you think? Is this the most appropriate use of this land? What it is? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I do. I think I think we can't we have to remember that they're renovating the manor house. Okay. That's the main

that's the thing that we all agree on that that we're all excited about. So, that is the main part of this and that is the most appropriate use of this land. But but but we're also talking about all the whole list of uses. Yes. I'm just talking about the main thing first. Go ahead.

I think we going through this checklist of all the uses, we were able to connect these uses as appropriate based on their ask institution. Um, and I think they've been operating, you know, they that's what they they're doing. And you know, it's not like they're turning it into a gas station or something like that. It's in harmony with with with their pillars that that we identified. So I do I think it is. Okay. It's all you. No, I just need to take the notes, remember?

Yeah, you can take the notes. You can read, too. Okay. Uh, will this will the use be detrimental to surrounding property values? I don't see it. The only use that that might have caused was the large and small gatherings just based on noise and traffic flow and all that which we've determined is something we want to a condition on. So um will the use cause an overcrowding of land or undue concentration of population?

It is an extremely I don't have the number but the it's a very extremely large piece of property. Um I did I had the number somewhere and I think by limiting the private events that will mitigate the overcrowding like yes they'll still have the farm to table but that is integral to their mission and so I don't think it will cause overcrowding and again it's not like we're talking about a 1acre property. Yeah. Go ahead, Phil. B

B location. Is the site suitable for the location of such use in the town? Yes, it is because it's being rehabilitated to its um former glory and with the limitations and it becoming an educational use. I think that is a suitable location in the town.

Is the prop proposal harmonious with the character of the existing and probable development of uses in the vicinity? Yes, it is. And I think that by um being clear and going through painstakingly all these different proposed uses uh that it is harmonious and that it will take into account probable development of uses.

Is the proposed use accessible for fire and other emergency apparatus? I will say it's a little sketchy getting in and out there. Um I think that's something for site plan to to work on like in terms of having to have like traffic Yeah. controlled during events and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Just all it takes is one car trying to get out and nobody can get in.

Mhm. Um, is the proposed use unreasonably near church, school, theater, recreational area, or other place of public assembly? No. Will the proposed use interfere with the established uses in the neighborhood? No. Public services. Are the driveways and sidewalks adequate to assure the public safety and avoid traffic congestion? Um, again, no. No. No. Uh, environmental concerns. Are there adequate facilities for the treatment, removal or discharge of sewage, refuse or other effluent from this use? So I think you know the man house is going to have a whole new system and they have that other system right the precursor. Yeah.

Um will the proposed use cause odors dust light or noise and if so how can the impact be minimized? I'm going to say you know just on on occasion during the renovation. Well, and also just, you know, if you're going to have a creekide concert or two or, you know, the the farm to table, it looks like there's some loud music going on there. So, I would say that there might occasionally be some noise, but I would call it minimal. They also minimized it by limiting the number of events. some of these larger ones can take place. And also they also need to comply with the local ordin sound ordinances and like

um will the proposed use impact the aquafer and other important natural resources resources and if so how can they be protected? um you know this it's it's such a large piece of property that u density

you know that's we're not talking about irrigating uh I don't want to get into the irrigation debate here but we're not talking about a big irrigation thing and and you know I think when they have the big parties like the the the function table I think they bring in the the fancy portaotties and you know so everything kind of goes So, I'm going to say no. You writing that down then? Yeah. Wrote it down. It's a lot big enough for the proposed use and it's reasonable anticipation anticipated operation expansion. Yeah, sure is. Yes.

Is there enough off street parking for employees or visitors? And is parking laid out in a convenient safe way? I'd say that parking needs to be addressed in in sight planning. No.

Uh what buffers and screening are necessary to protect the adjacent properties and land uses? You know, if uh um I don't know if if they would like to or or you know put some sort of vegetative buffer between them and Mr. Gainer because he seems to be bothered by some of the things that they do there. But perhaps everybody likes the long open vistas. So he he didn't propose wasn't expressed by Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to say none. None.

Um All right. And then at the end, you know, whatever. We'll save that for the Yeah. Save that. Okay. So that'll give a good Tim, are you ready to go on this? Yes. All right. Do you do you want us to list out the few conditions that we had just so that we're on the same page and let's go ahead.

Okay. So, we had conditions um construct no new permanent non-agg agricultural structures. No new permanent non-aggricultural structures. Um, and then the other one was the leasing of the property. Tim can put that in eloquent lawyer speak. Legally. Um, and then limiting limiting the large and small I don't know, gatherings. Again, that's something Tim I I mean limiting I said none. None.

Okay. So So that would be something eliminating. eliminating or no small or large gatherings and then uh two creek side concerts, two Shakespeare performances. [Music] Yep. I mean those were those Yeah. Yeah.

I'm saying no private gatherings, large and small. Perfect. Thank you.

Does that seem copathetic to everyone? I think it's the best we can do. All right. Is there another moment coming where we can do better? I think we try. I I agree. Um All right. So, uh, we're going to adjourn this until our work session. Let me just get the date here. Work session October 15th. October 15th.

Okay, one more time. Wrapping this paper up here. Did you get crunch? That's

life clear. Yeah.

What you're right there with getting lonely. I have a 15 minute sleep.

It's up there. I'll take advantage of it. All right. All right. my agend.

Um, next up we have nine Clinton Avenue, Okonnell. Do we have any correspondence on this? No. So, previously we had been uh we had we had a hearing on this.

Um, the HPOC had some concerns with traffic, parking, and that kind of thing. Uh it seems that the applicant and the HPOC have worked that out. They've got some approval from uh uh HPOC, from North Ferry, from the ambulance, from whatever from all really interested parties. Um the uh there were no actual objections to the plan, right? There was there was no opposition at all. Um and uh so I I don't know if uh any of you have a little bit of input here. I don't have anything from the notes other than the parking.

That's all. Same here. Well, they worked it out in agreement. I think that's the most important last thing that Matt showed us made sense with the flag man. Yeah. Okay. So the just to to sort of recap um what the variances are for in working off the denial over here um the because we're expanding the B.

Okay. So the window wells um are in the rear yard setback. These are new window wells. Um there are four of them all together and all four of them need area variances. Um the addition where the foundation and first floor closet and rear porch expand 1.3 ft over a 10 foot 10.4t wide area at the southwest corner holding a distance of 3.2 ft from the northwest property line 13 ft from the right rear yard property line. Um this expands the existing nonconformity in area and f requiring an area variance and ava per special permit. Um and the proposed new patio um told the distance of 5t from the rear yard alley property line and 5 ft from the sideyard property line is entirely in the sideyard setback and nearly entirely in the rear yard setback requirement ava area variance and then your expansion of the second floor roof deck. over the existing porch 3 and 1/2 ft towards the northeast Clinton Avenue front yard property line with no expansion of footprint but expanding the bulk nonconformity requires a special permit. Um so those those are um and we also need a ZVA variance. Your existing imperous surface coverage is 2005 square ft which is 269 square ft

over the code. Your proposed construction would add 493 ft of imperous surface for a total of 2261 square ft. You need a ZBA variance for the additional imperous surface. I wrote that the brick patio was in sand. Does that make it not impervious? Um I'm on start asking punch punch if if there's sand on this new brick patio. uh between the bricks. Does that make it impervious? Do you know? Doesn't make it permeable really. No. Well, just because you were saying impervious,

it's because it is I think what um you know, I think that that's not part of it, right? I think that's Reed's day. Okay. That's the building department. Okay. Cool. Um All right. So, um are we ready to go checklisting? I think so. Does anyone else have any other commentary on this one? I think you covered everything. Okay. So, let's first do the area variance. Is that all right with everyone? Um, and this so this is for a whole bunch of area variants. Can you take the note on this one? I did. Oh, yeah. Oh, you can take you have your own.

Sure. I have this somewhere over the rainbow. I do not take this one and Lisa will take the note. All right. Whether the undesirable change will be produced in the character of the neighborhood or detriment to nearby properties. I'm going to say no. Agree. It's very similar to other properties in the area there. Um whether the benefits sought by the applicant can be achieved by feasible alternatives to the variance. Um, I would say that they they are really minimizing the impact.

Um, and so I I would say that there's there's this is the best alternative. So I don't know that there's a another one that's as good or feasible. Uh whether the requested variance is substantial. I would say each individual variance isn't that much. Add it up. I think it is substantial. I agree. Yeah. Total. Um, sorry. what we're going with. Yes. Yes. For the total collectively. Yeah. Um would the variance have an adverse effect adverse impact on the physical or environmental conditions in neighborhood? Let's say no. Um and why?

All the improvements they're making to the property. I would say okay. Uh whether the alleged difficulty was self-created. Yes. Yes. Then we're going to move on to the uh special permit for the expansion of the bulk. Um that's for the addition and for the uh second floor porch expansion over the roof and for the increase in imperous surface. Um is the proposed use the most appropriate use of this land? Yes. Yes. Will the use be detrimental to surrounding property values? No.

No. Will the use cause an overcrowding of land or undue concentration of population? I mean, it's already tight, right? Yeah. I mean, it's so No. No. It's they're going from a fourbedroom to a fivebedroom proposed, but I don't see that as causing any overcrowding. No. No. Is the site suitable for the location of such use in the town? Yes. Is the proposal harmonious with the character of the existing and probable development of uses in the vicinity? Yes. Yes. Is it the prop is the proposed use accessible for fire and other emergency apparatus? Yes. Yes.

Is the proposed use unreasonably near a church, school, theater, recreational area, or other place of public assembly? No. No. Will the proposed use interfere with established uses in the neighborhood? No. No. Are the driveways and sidewalks adequate to assure the public safety and avoid traffic congestion? Um I would say that uh using the parking plan during construction and uh will mitigate the problems. There is no driveway there. Uh it's like a lot of houses in the Heights they park in the street.

Um are there are there adequate facilities for the treatment, removal or discharge of sewage, refuse or other effluent from this use? Yes. Yes. As a sewage treatment plant. Will the proposed use cause artist dust light or noise? And if so, how can the impact be minimized? You know, I and they're going to have to have uh dark skies compliant lighting. Will the proposed use impact the aquafer and other important natural resources? And if so, how can they be protected? Can I go back? Did we talk about the noise, the sound of the AC units at all? No, they're but they're as long as they are under the the the thing that's and the the building department.

Okay. All right. I just remember us dealing with that more. Yeah. Okay. No, but they they changed the the code.

Okay. Um will the proposal will the proposed use although we already um it's a lot big enough for the proposed use and it's reasonable anticipate operation. Yes. Um is there enough off streetet parking for employees or visitors and it's parking laid out in a convenient safe way? So again they are going to use uh the the traffic plan that the uh the applicant and the HPOC agreed on. uh what buffers and screening are necessary to protect adjacent properties in my use? No. And we don't need any conditions on this other than that uh uh they're going to uh comply or follow the

parking plan. The parking plan. Anything else that anybody else want to put in there? No. No. Jim, is there anything you feel like we're missing here? No. Okay. Um, anyone else have anything for this? Oh, can we talk about it? Oh, for this? No. Okay. So, we're going to just close that work session. And if there's something else you want to bring up, uh, yeah. Do we have to make a motion to close it? Uh, want me to make a motion? Sure. Let's make a motion to close the work session. Oh, okay. I'll make a motion. I'll second it. All in favor? Hi. Hi. Then what? I want the meetings to be at 7:00 instead of 7:30 now that bunches are tied.

Watch out now. Bunches are tired but tired. So I want the meetings at