Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

I'm going to call the meeting the order at 730. we'll call William Johnson here. Thomas. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa. Yeah. And Phil, the Oreo is here. We also have present Tim Hill CBA attorney via zoom. 1st order businesses to review and approve the April 22nd. 2026 minutes do I have a motion to approve? I'll make that.

I'll 2nd.

All in favor? Aye. We have one application to discuss during our work session agenda. It's 89 North Ferry Road, McGill. We had asked the applicant to deliver a new site plan to us that would show The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, And then you look on the second page, you see a drawing on the north elevation that shows that retaining wall six feet high. Glenn and Lisa, I know the two of you went there yesterday. There were some things I think maybe you wanted to bring up.

Yeah. Yeah, we just, you know, with these updated plans, we just wanted to just scope it out again. I still have concerns about how narrow this parcel is. And getting access to that cottage and, you know, and making sure emergency vehicles can get back there. It was extremely tight and seemed like the fence wasn't on the property line.

It seemed like, right?

Yeah, so I did look again at the survey and it's listed on the survey as wood post and wire fence. So, according to the survey that the driver would have to be on the inside of that fence. And when we were there, it was. I mean, even just that little gate that's there by the house. I mean, you're going to be, it's going to be hard pressed to even get a vehicle between the fence. and the house. It's doable, but it's a transom mix.

A transom mix, a lumber truck.

They're going to have to get all that stuff done. So for me, I think that it's possible that the fence would have to be moved.

Well, it can't move if it's on the property line.

But I'm going to say that the survey is accurate, right? I mean, we have a stamp.

So where are you going to move the fence to? So, well, if it's on the property line, here's what I'm going to say, though.

Is that if we require a 10 foot wide driveway, who is requiring that? We would have to require that.

Where are you getting 10 feet from?

Well, they're showing 10 feet right here.

But how wide is a fire truck? How wide is an ambulance? Do we know that information?

I know that they're less than 10 feet. Yeah, they're less than 10 feet.

And do we want a property with that length of a driveway? Going along the entire length of the driveway it's not like it's just the front section it's the entire length, so the neighbors are going to have cars going up and down and up and down the entire length headlights going in and out. You know, and we didn't hear from the neighbor I don't think. But I think it's something to take into consideration, and it just has to do with the shape of this property and is this property. Really conducive.

to have living space in the rear of the property i understand your concerns i don't i don't share them particularly i think that if if you know we require that they put in the driveway as drawn um and the parking area has drawn um you know that's Not our problem kind of like it's if if they put in the 10 foot driveway, then they have the 10 foot drive. You know, that's. Being there, it didn't seem feasible.

It must be if.

The surveys accurate, I mean, even just Lynn and I getting our cars in and out of there. We had to literally move our cars 3 or 4 times because there were people in the front house that had to leave. We were pulling in when we had to park. And then you're going out at the end, you know, onto North Ferry Road and there's that big uphill and you can't see left. And this is going to increase the amount of traffic going back and forth onto this parcel.

I mean, how much traffic are you talking about? How much traffic goes in and out of your driveway?

I don't have an ADU. I don't know because I don't have somebody else living on my property.

I don't think that's an accurate comparison. I don't feel concerned about the presence of the ADU in the rear. I just felt concerned about the feasibility of a 10 foot driveway getting there. I agree.

What's your feelings on the driveway? You have more expertise.

Well, my only concern, I believe the house possibly got a block foundation. and transom mixes and any heavy truck going by that close not good after a while you mean the front house the house yeah front house yeah i think it was block foundation

But again, that's not good for heavy weight, but that, but that's again, not, you know, our. Yeah, but you're talking about for construction purposes.

Do you think that it's going to be hard. You know, to get the trucks and stuff back there and the lumber trucks and.

I mean, it'll behoove them then to have a. A driveway that works, right?

I mean, that's yeah, but they ain't got it because the house is. is the problem the front house is cockeyed on a angle it's not straight where it gives more room on one side you see one side's 11 8 and the other side is one spot is only 10 9. um yeah i again for me i feel like the

the driveway is sort of their problem. I would like to put in a condition that they have to put in the driveway in the parking area as indicated on the plan. So I don't want to see that there's now no real driveway.

It's going to be impossible to not put it how it is on the plan because of where the house is in the front of the property.

You only know that one spot.

You can't. I mean, you have to put it there. Where are you going to put it? In the house? You can't put it through the house. That condition to me doesn't really solve anything.

No, it's a condition of having it though. Well, what is it that you want solved?

There's nothing that I want solved. I just, I don't know what that condition is going to do.

Um, I mean, I just want to make sure that they actually do create a 10 foot wide driveway.

That's what I want to make sure I was just questioning the feasibility from as a lay person and not someone with punches experience. But if that is possible, then for the project, car and stuff, pick up and stuff like that.

Ups drop. Yeah, they could do that. but my concern is when it's under construction right but would we be liable why would we be you know so we approved

the O'Connell build in the Heights. Right. And it's going to be as squirrelly for them to get construction equipment around on a road as opposed to this track of driveway, which is solely on their property. They have wiggle room. Once they pass the house, they have wiggle room. Oh, yeah, they do. To get equipment.

There's a big hill at the end of that pool. I don't know. Again, like, I don't know. Maybe they're going to fill it in. I don't know.

Again, you know, they pump concrete. Oh, yeah, right. You know, so, you know. They want to put this up when I don't know where do we start to question. What means they're putting it up? You know, they might have.

Yes, people maybe they got an agreement with vendor next door to put the pump truck over there and take the concrete and pump it.

Exactly. You know, I. I, um, you know, as for me personally, as that has driven a fire truck and would I want to go down that lot on a night, God forbid there was fire. No, that's, uh, that'd be a little, a little bit hairy, but you know, I think it exists here on the island and we've been in a lot tighter spots, you know?

It was just a concern being on the site. That's not to say that we have the right to question whether an adequate driveway can be constructed there. It was just a concern being there and it feeling very tight. But if you guys think that as long as it's got to be 10 foot wide. Yeah, I, you know.

I do want to make sure that there is, in fact, a driveway installed for the full length here. I don't want it to be that it's just people are going to be driving on the grass. No, it's got to be. And that this parking and turnaround area is as big as it shows here. For me, those are the things that are important. in the end this application is here for us really just for an area there that's right just for the undersized lot right a lot is narrow i mean i i don't mean to downplay that no it does feel narrow but it does feel spacious when you're there like there definitely is plenty of property there for the adu lengthwise yes okay so maybe we're going in a place that's not really our purview

Well, I'm in agreement, I think you're right in the question, but I agree with Bill as far as the 10 flipping because. You know, at 10 feet of a fire truck or an ambulance can get down there and it's tight and vehicles to get down because they're a little bit narrower. But anything small that will for that road not to be. Some type of, I'm not necessarily saying, hey. But clear run for a vehicle and an emergency vehicle drive on that would be crazy. And then especially the turnaround at the end.

You know, and Punch, I do get what you're saying about the transit mix is during construction. As long as you don't come back and buy this. Yeah, the construction is the least of it, right? I mean, that's, and again, it's really, it's their problem. You're right. Otherwise, I have no problem. Does anyone else have any other input on this?

No, that was it for me.

Lisa, anything else?

Nothing else. I'm still, I'm holding to the fact that I'm not sure that this lot, based on how narrow it is and the accessibility, if it is the right lot for what they're asking, you know, because it is, it's an undersized lot based on what the code stipulates. But, you know. I'm still at that line, but that's okay.

Ready to go to the work sheets. All right, so. Um. Yeah, I tell her whether an undesirable change will be reduced in the character of the neighborhood or detriment to nearby properties.

I don't believe so.

I don't think so.

I want to, I'm going to again, I'm going to push this thing that there's, we're looking at a thing where there's a driveway down the entire length of. The side of a property that butts up to another neighbor. I mean, that it is that it's going to change a little bit because you're going to have cars now driving all the way. All the way down a lot headlights night day. It might change it to me. I think it might change the character and, you know, it would somebody want to buy the property next door knowing that their entire side yard is a driveway. I don't know. So that's my argument. You guys can absolutely. It's up to you.

I'm going to say no. I feel like it's no real detriment. I don't know anybody else have any other input.

I don't believe it is, but we can debride. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Well, the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by a feasible alternative to the variance. Um, you know, there is no feasible alternative to the variance in terms of. They're not going to be able to to build an ADU without the variance. I don't know what the feasible alternative would be. So I say, no, whether the requested variance is substantial. I would say yes, yes, so they need an area variance for. They're supposed to have 30,000 square feet, and they have 22, 129. So I would say that they need an area variance for 7,871 square feet of lot size out of 30,000. I would say that, yes, that is a substantial variance. And would the variance have an adverse impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood? I'm going to say no, but I have a feeling maybe someone wants to chime in with a yes.

Well, we have to keep in mind what it is asking specifically. The physical conditions, yes, but the environmental, I don't see any issues with the environment.

Actually, on that west side, there's two houses.

Yeah.

There's two houses. The one in the back runs down between one house and another house and goes down behind Bob Relic, gets to the back. So it's got a long driveway also.

That is sort of the way the neighborhood is over there. Yeah.

They're all long driveways.

So for me, I don't think it'll have an adverse impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood. Anyone, Lisa, do you feel like that may be going to have a negative impact on the physical? But overall, does it?

Yeah, overall, I.

We're going to say no? No. Is everybody okay with that?

Yeah.

All right.

And whether the alleged difficulty was self-created, I'm going to say yes, they just want to put in this ADU. All right. So Tim, is there something else we're missing here or are we all good to go?

I think you're good. As you've discussed, the zoning board is not the planning board doing site plan review. There's a narrow ask here, which is for the variance for the deficient. lot size, but some of the concerns that have been expressed would fit into some of the categories as you've just discussed. So I think you've addressed everything. If there were to be conditions, it should have some nexus to the variance that's being granted and the concerns that are arising out of uh that the grant of that variance well the nexus though is the accessing the edu via the driveway yeah so to the extent there's a concern about its impact you know on the physical condition which you know could include the need for emergency access or with respect to the impact on on neighbors um yeah i agree there is a nexus

So, is there a way for us to say that we want to make sure that that they construct a 10 foot driveway with the turnaround that's in the plans? Or is that basically what we just say there?

Yeah, we can say that, you know, if. in this posture that we're in where the records closed and we're at the work session, you know, it's, it's hard to ask for a plan now and get it back. Right.

It does show it on, on the cert. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, we can make that an explicit condition.

Um, uh, okay. And, I mean, that's for me, that's the 1 condition that I want to make sure that that happens. Um, I don't know if there's any other conditions that.

What we had done, I believe, on one other occasion and what I've done elsewhere, to the extent that there's concerns about construction, you can ask the applicant for a construction protocol to be approved by the town so that they lay out what their plans for timing and staging, et cetera, for the construction would be and You know, there'd be an opportunity to respond to that and make sure that it's something that was more like that thing up in the heights.

It really required something like that more than this does. Yeah.

Being a public space.

Yeah.

So we want them to maintain that 10 foot access that 10 foot wide driveway all the way down.

To the turnaround to the turnaround that's shown on the plans as it is on the plan.

There's got to be a stable road.

Right.

It can't be just dirt.

Right. So I don't know how you would phrase that part of it.

Right, but it seems obvious, but we have more concern about it with this key with this project, right?

It's getting past the house and getting down the end. It's it can be tight, right?

And so you want to make sure that the road is the road, the driveway, the integrity of the structure, and that it's passable, perpetually passable. Like, I'm sure Tim has the words for it.

Tim, you got some words for us?

Yeah, or I'll find them.

All right, anyone else have anything else to weigh in on this?

Maybe just that no other. Buildings on the site are inhabited.

Okay. So, oh, yeah. Oh, because they have those couple sheds there. Yeah. Yeah. So. that there'd be no other sleeping quarters and no other buildings other than the main house and the ADU that would have any kind of plumbing?

I guess, just because there weren't multiple, yeah, multiple buildings on there.

Okay, so there'd be no, no, that, that, The living area would be confined to just the to the main house and the ad yeah and there'd be no other living area allow finished.

If you want if that's what you agree.

I think that that's a good idea. yeah that's good yeah. I think that that's a good one, too, yes. Okay, yes, yes. Anything else. No? All right, so I guess we will get a resolution made up by Tim here. We'll take a look at it and vote on that next week. So we'll close the work session on the application for 89 North Perry Road. And we have one other bit of new business tonight, and that is we're going to talk about some of our fee structure. We have a fee structure that, for example, if you have a house on small loft heights and you expand into a couple different areas, let's say you expand a little porch bump out here. And then the porch above it also, and now that's counted as two variances now, right? Is that right, Christina?

Sometimes there's no building and you add porch. Right. And it can be front yard variance and side yard variance. Right. And there is a porch above it and also, you know, so it's like... it's very hard to calculate on the or on a very small lot or on a lot there are no building envelope essentially so in heights it's very problematic and sometimes those fees you know because the structure that we have right now you know if you're looking at the larger project um two variances are 20 uh projects over 20 000 is thousand dollars and every additional is 750. and uh so small project and scale can encumber seven variants of easily so i just as food for thought we don't have to make any decisions tonight but what i thought is that in in these cases like this

We have a building now, and there's no real whatever it's bigger than the building envelope would be that if there are multiple things extending into 1 side. We just take the 1 that's kind of closest to the property line and say, that's sort of the maximum 1, but we only say it's 1 variance on the East side for the side yard. And it would be one variance on the west side. Again, front and back. So that in the end, you're talking about the four sides of the house. You could have four different variances as opposed to having 10. Yeah, for little bits of stuff that stick out. I think it's worth.

Thinking about from a fee standpoint, I mean, still in the denial part, though, we need to list all of that is correct.

I just want to make sure that yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And in high, it's typically 90% of the applications also have special permit.

Yes, they do, you know, because of because of the expansion of the, but you know what I think that we have to have that as a.

As its own, I'm just saying that in addition to the variances, there's typically special permit component, but I do think it makes sense instead of saying, hey.

Because you have this little nubbin that sticks in here and this other nubbin sticks in here both are sticking into the front yard setback. We should maybe just get the fee for 1 front yard variance.

Yeah.

And can you think of besides the heights? I mean, we can see clearly how this is applicable to the heights. Can we think of any other scenarios or any other types of variances that people might need to apply for that? Maybe on maybe maybe the building is situated so far. To 1 side of the property that they're going to need 10 on 1 side of the property.

Right. So for me, like, again, you're okay with just charging the one that that's, I think so. Okay. I think so. It makes, it makes sense to me because it's, that's the one setback in that scenario that's being intruded.

Yeah. And sometime you got them on total drive and on big ramp. Right. Some of the lots on the water are very narrow.

Yeah. Same thing in silver beach as well. Yeah. Uh, and so I just, I feel like it's, it's unfair to the applicant to, um, the, the one that was withdrawn recently, Savoy, they had so many different, uh, uh, you know, intrusions and, uh, it was turning into something that was whatever, it got very expensive for what they wanted to do. Um, the, uh, so there's, there's that, and then there's also, you know, right now we're

question is would you consider this application of the fee that is just it's always within the one yard, it's all within the one yard island-wide application or just high depth?

No, I think it should be for everybody. We can't just, I don't want to single out one district and make that different than everybody else. I think it would be relatively rare for it to happen in other places in the same kind of way, but it could. It happens. Yeah, yeah.

No, it does happen.

And so they said that's food for thought. We're not making any decisions on this tonight. But then there's also the large house variance. And right now we're doing, what, $1,000? And it seems to me in the big scale of things that that's sort of underpriced when you're getting, what, $750 for one little variance on a regular, you know, on a... $1,000 for two variances and $750 each. Yeah, so it seems to me that... you know these things can get pretty involved i mean we're just seeing that on that first one with the alpha nest that whatever we have to get in the environmental people and it's just there's stuff involved with it and uh and i see down the road situations that could be even even more difficult for us Um, and so I think just thinking about, uh, uh, the time that, uh, the clerk has to spend the time that, you know, uh, maybe we're going to have our attorney engaged on this. That something like that should probably be more expensive.

So, currently, does it fall under this variance for projects over 20000, or is there a separate schedule?

That's the 1, it falls under and that's where it comes to light when, you know, project in the heights. Came up, you know, it was going to end up being 5,000 dollars for ending the kitchen or whatever. I don't know. I didn't recognize the application and 14,000 square feet house has 1000 application.

Yeah, that makes sense to have a different fee structure for for a large house over 5,000 square feet.

When you base it on the scale of the job on the.

It can be any house over $5,000.

Over $5,000. $999. Yes. Okay. You know, maybe, I don't know if there should be a sliding scale to say, well, if you want over $10,000, it should be X amount more. I don't know.

But it can be like they come for, you know, $10,000 and they will be leaving with $8,000.

Okay.

Oh, yeah. I see what you're saying.

Right so again, this is we're not making any decisions tonight. This is just to sort of get everybody starting to think about this because it's just in the interest of fairness. I think that it's good for us to take a look at this stuff.

Well, and just the fact that more resources, not ours, because we're paid a fixed salary, but when we have. people who work on consultants and our attorney.

Those fees are reimbursable.

Yeah, because the consultant will get reimbursed for. But Tim's and our clerk may wind up doing more stuff as well. More paperwork. So I mean, I think it's worth thinking about. And were there any others, Christina?

There was one more question regarding these large houses, right? So currently our application checklist requires environmental assessment form for special permits only, not for area variances, because typically area variances that we deal, we used to deal with, right, are setback issues. But now if you have large house, that's also area variance, but might have environmental impact. So my question was, we don't require it because we only require it with a special permit. Do we want environmental form, at least short form, for variances on oversized houses?

I think absolutely.

And I don't know, I mean, do you find it, you know, the information that it's provided there? Do you need to find it helpful? What's my question?

I would say that I do find it helpful. And I think that it's something that we should absolutely do. And Also, Christina, when we were speaking, we spoke about the fees for outside consultants that we bring in that that's going to be reimbursed by the applicant. But there was nothing in the application package that actually stated that, right? And so I'd like to have that in the application package so that People, when they are applying, they can see that this could very well be the case. I don't want it to be a surprise for people when they're here. So, you know, I think. those that and and the short form requirement on the oversized houses i think we could probably think that we're positive on those things right from the get-go right um and uh and then the fees we'll think about a little bit and maybe talk about that at the next worst

Then, as far as the process go, the application of the fees, the first part that we discussed that front yard or rear yard, that's kind of zoning board policy. The second application to, you know, come up with maybe with a different fee for those large houses. That would be the resolution from the town.

Right.

And so that would be your recommendation.

Right. We'll write them a letter once we have something solid in our brains here, I think, to request that. And then just change in the form just to whatever the wording would have to be. If you can maybe just draft something and send it to us for the consultant fees.

Yeah. Thanks for putting this all together. This is very helpful. This is actually in the application. Packet, so this is exactly like that.

Yeah, I'm sure you did it though when you redid the application.

Yeah, so just on this is one of the pages of the application packet, right? We don't see that because only applicant works with this. And just on this page on the bottom will be added to, you know, something. Reference to the code.

Alright, and then do we want to do the training next week or do we want to do it after the next work session?

Yes, Tim, um. You think next week's going to be a long meeting.

I actually don't think it's going to be a super long meeting, but it could be whatever. I've, I've been, it shouldn't be, but.

I say, after the next work session after the next work session along the, uh, okay. So the 17.

So Tim, is he still there? He's gone. All right. So we'll say that we're going to do the training the 17th after the work session. All right. And just so you know where we are with training for ZBA training, I'm going to say that, well, actually, can we maybe close the meeting here?

I'll make a motion. I'll second. All in favor? Aye. Aye.