Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

County Planning Commission meeting for Monday, April 14th and the hearing procedures. You have them up. Yep. There we go. Welcome everyone. Your attendance and participation tonight is important and endures a comprehensive scope of review. It is important that everyone understand the hearing procedure to ensure an orderly meeting and afford an opportunity for all to participate. Public comment is essential to the process and provides much needed information for the commission. Okay. Um the chairperson will call the public hearing item. The planning department will present the staff recommendation. Commissioners may ask questions of staff presentation by applicant and or representatives. Commissioners may ask questions of the applicant and the chairperson will open the public hearing. The chairperson will call for public comments from persons in support of the items followed by persons in opposition to the item. The applicant will have the chance for rebuttal comments. The chairperson will close the public hearing and the commissioners may ask questions, have discussion, and then take action. We'll have roll call. Still have some more hearing procedures. It goes on and on. That's right. Speakers must speak from the podium and state their name and address for the record. The chairperson reserves the right to establish a time limit for all speakers to ensure that everyone can speak. The designation of a spokesperson for groups sharing a common point of view is encouraged. All comments and questions will be directed to the chair from the podium and not to the applicant, the

staff or the audience. When the hearing is closed, additional public comments are not permitted. Okay. So now So now we'll have roll call. Janette Johnson, present. Chad Gearhart, here. Rosa Kavasos here. Terry Robinson, present. Myin Lwinner. Dan Brian, present. Okay, so we have five people present. So with five people present, we have a quorum. Um, Janette, do you want to do a speaker? That's the chairperson's election to do and you can set it. a time of four minutes, three minutes, five minutes. All right. For the speakers, we'll set a time limit of of three minutes when we get to that point of the public comment of the public hearing. So three minutes. Okay. So before we start the first item, let's get back to communications from the public to staff. um in front of you. You did well as a part of the information that we had sent you, we did include um three comments that had come through shortly after the last meeting that we had in September. Um and then we did also have an item come through today. Um so for the items that came through shortly after the meeting um there was a question in regards to why it was that the applicant had been allowed to um speak for a long period of time and then why we limit public comment and I just explained in that email that the differentiation is that the applicant does have the ability to present the information. um public comment whether for or against is set for that uh shorter period of time. Um, in regards to the response,

um, we also had a comment come in stating that they were opposed uh to the permit based on infrastructure and roads. Uh, traffic issues that would come about and the fact that it's located adjacent to a residential neighborhood, music, trash, and noise would be unwelcome. And then we had received a letter with a litany of reasons on it which is in was included as a part of your packet. Um so then the one that came through today I wanted to point out because this was something that came up um after an event that was held there over the weekend. Um we don't know anything about the the the party or event that happened. Um it is a private parcel and so if they have private events they're allowed to do so. However, um one of the neighbors did want to email and let the the planning commission know that the site had been used on Saturday from about 400 p.m. until midnight and then again on Sunday um from about 2:30 until 5:30 and that this neighbor's concern continues to be the noise level. um they were monitoring the decibel level from their home and they indicated that they are a quarter mile away from the event area and that they registered 85 decel decibb on Saturday and then 75 dB on Sunday. Um so just but I want you to be aware that we're not here to talk about public or private event events. It's just about the rodeo and public events. But this neighbor did want to notate that there was a concern in regards to noise and the decibel level that it gets to at their their home. So I wanted to pass that on and you do have a copy of that as a part of your information there. Have there been any exparte communications by members of the

commission? Um no was reflected declaration of conflict of interest by members of the commission. None. All right. Then we will call uh for the U zoning and subdivision item on our agenda continued by the planning commission on June 10th and September 9th, 2024. Um, CU 2404 requesting a conditional use permit to establish a rodeo event venue on property zoned RA1 Rural Agriculture District and located at 6320 Southeast 45th Street in Tecumpsa Township. Okay, good evening everybody. Um, just a reminder that we are being live streamed tonight and we do have a recording of minutes taking place and so make sure to speak into your microphones so that not only is it amplified for the public but um can be heard over the liveream. Um, as mentioned, we are here for CU2404. Um, I'm going to go through a little bit of history. I believe all of you have heard this item on a one or maybe two occasions except for Commissioner Brian who joined us after the last time that we considered this. And not only that, but for a history of the the case as a whole and for the general public, we wanted to go through um the history. So, we have the general location map up on the the screen here and uh it is lo located by that blue star. Um, it's located right off of Southeast 45th, um, east of Shauny Heights Road, not far. This is a vicinity map, so you can see where it's located in regards to other neighbors surrounding and the farms that are surrounding as well as the Shauny Heights schools along the road

there. Um, this is our thousand foot notification. Um, so by statute, we have to send out notification of any zoning change to anybody within a th00and feet um within within Shaunie County or the unincorporated county. If a city limit would butt up against that, we only have to send out notification to 200 feet. But in this case, it went out 1,000 feet around the entire circle. Now, we do know that we've had a lot of contact from people that are further outside of the thousand ft who feel like they're interested parties, and we agree that everybody involved can be an interested party. However, by law, this is what we're required to send out. Um, in regards to the site plan, this is the site plan that has most recently been submitted to us. Um, I'm going to X out of this and pull up. We did um have it as a separate copy that can be uh increased or decreased. If you have specific questions about the location of anything on the site plan, um just make sure to ask if you want to see this up close um in regards to what it is that they may be planning or intending on this site plan. Um, one thing I want to point out is that the cup encompasses all the area on the north as well as this area here on the center and to the east, but he did uh separate out this rectangle on the west here. And his residence is being constructed on that location right now.

Okay. So, history of the case. The proposal was originally heard on June 10, 2024. At that time, we sent out 28 notific notification letters to property owners within 1,000 ft. We received a lot of emails um in response to that. Um a lot of them in opposition uh to in support. We did have 32 people um speak at the public hearing that night. It could be that there were more people than that at the public hearing who did not speak, but 32 individuals did speak in opposition that night and none in favor um other than the applicant. Okay. So, the property has historically Oh, goodness. It's going to now catch up. Property has historically been used for agricultural purposes. As I mentioned, um he's recently begun, the applicant has recently constructed his home or is in the process of constructing his home on that property. Um, it's located near Shauny Heights Middle School and High School. Um, it's east of a residential neighborhood. To the north and east and south, there's a mostly agricultural land with some residences that are located on those AG land parcels. Um, in the original staff report, I had identified a list of concerns in regards to the proposal that I felt like needed to be addressed. And when we made the original report and proposal to the planning commission, I had found that the request did not satisfy the golden factors at that time. Um, I did recommend that either the planning commission recommend denial or a continuence of the matter in order to allow the applicant to give us additional information or answer some of those questions and concerns. Um, I'll

take a second to remind you that all of your decisions that you make are based on the golden factors. And if you look through um the staff report from today, we did list out all of those golden factors to make sure that you knew what each of those were and how we felt the golden factors were affected. Um, golden is case law from the I think 1970s out of Overland Park. And the Supreme Court has found that so long as the planning commission and the board of county commissioners or the municipality who decides these cases considers at least those factors, they can consider other factors in addition to that. But as long as you consider those factors, they they deem the decisions that you've made to be reasonable and not arbitrary. And so we always recommend when you're deciding a case that you look at those factors um to determine the decision. Um so then at that time the request was [Music] for after discussion a motion was made at that time to defer the action until August and the motion passed four to zero. uh before the August meeting occurred, the applicant did reach out and request some additional time and that they could be heard instead in September. Uh so we did continue it till that September public hearing date. On August 15, we did receive a traffic study analysis and we sent that on to our public works department. Uh, public works did have questions and concerns in regards to that um, traffic study. And so some emails went back and forth between the consultant and public works and public works requested some things to be reconsidered and um, identified things that he felt like needed to be addressed

in regards to that traffic study. Um, we also I specifically consulted with the applicants consultant at that time and made it clear that I had to have information by August 23 in order to be able to prepare our staff reports and get everything ready for the September meeting. Um, we didn't receive any additional information prior to that August 23 deadline. And so the recommendation at that time from planning staff was that uh the the case be denied. Um, and that was based again on the golden factors and a review of all the information that was presented. So then on September 9, the second hearing commenced and we provided an update regarding the proposed rodeo venue. Um, we did publish new legal notice in regards to that hearing. Um, we did resend out notification letters to everybody within a thousand feet. We sent emails to everybody who had contacted us by email in regards to the meeting with information. Um, and prior to the public hearing, we had two neighbors email requesting an update and then one uh new email was received in opposition to the updated proposal prior to that September meeting. Again, we identified the golden factors and stated that while no one factor is controlling, that all of the factors were considered. Um, we did recommend to the planning commission that denial of the conditional use permit be um considered. At the meeting, one person did speak in favor of the proposal and four people spoke in opposition. Now, I wanted to to comment here that we were very specific to those that were in attendance that they couldn't get up and reiterate everything that they had said at prior meetings. they were only to address the new information that had been presented um as of that date. The applicant did um prepare and present a PowerPoint at that meeting with a bunch of additional

details and including you know updates to the site plan and the noise study. Um but when the planning commission asked staff whether or not that was enough to satisfy our needs, um my response to that was that it hadn't been submitted by the deadline. And so we had not had the opportunity to review all of that information and send it out to the reviewing entities for comments. And so um I recommended at that time that if the planning commission wanted to consider that additional information that the the case be deferred again, which is what happened. So, at that point, we the planning commission voted to defer action with a five to zero vote. Um, at that time, what I indicated was that in order to reschedule it for another hearing, they needed to get us all of the information prior to one of our planning commission deadlines. And I did that because if what had happened the time prior is that we had sent out notification about meetings and then when it got continued, we had to send them all out again. And so every time we have one of these public hearings, we're publishing notice and we're sending out letters and emails to everybody. And that takes a lot of time and money. And so unless we knew that it was going to be set on a specific date, we didn't want to schedule it for a specific hearing date. Um so then on February 21st, the applicant did submit to us an updated PowerPoint. Uh February 21st was the deadline for this meeting today. Um there were some emails exchanged back and forth to let them know that it wasn't enough information to provide us to to consider and send to you. Uh so on February 24th they submitted an updated business plan. Um and then on the 25th they submitted the storm water management report um which I believe we'd already had but they sent it to us again. They sent a revised site plan and then they did submit the noise study

that they had conducted and had talked about at the September meeting. Um we did send out notification letters to everybody within 1,000 ft. We sent emails to everybody who had attended the June and September meetings and had given us their contact information. Um as well as published notice in the paper and put everything on our planning department website. uh we got an email the emails that I spoke of tonight email asking for clarification on the hearing processes and then three emails received in opposition to the proposal. Um on March 17th, uh Harim and I had been working on reviewing the the the case. And so Harem put together a le a list of concerns that she had in regards to the case and things that she felt like the applicant had not addressed in regards to the updated information they had sent. And she gave them a deadline of March 28th to respond. And so they did respond prior to that deadline um with an updated business plan, a PowerPoint, updated trip generation, and revised site plan. And I am actually at this point going to turn it over to Harim because she's the one who did the staff report and has done an update on the revised study. Thank you. Um so planning staff finds that not all concerns have been addressed, such as one, the traffic study, there's still some issues that um were not addressed. two, the noise control. Three, landscaping. Four, security measures. Five, emergency services. And six, emergency response plan. Um, so I didn't go into details about the rest of this. Is there anything in particular that you wanted to talk about from those specifics from your staff report? Um, so some some of the items, uh, for instance, the traffic study, uh, public

works had asked for them to address concerns in regard in regards to the um stopping sight distance. Um so that wasn't addressed. Uh there was information provided from the applicant in regards to the noise control um report. However, not all of our questions uh again have been addressed. Um, we wanted to have additional details on how on-site and neighboring residents noise levels will be monitored. How um is the applicant going to determine the maximum allowable on-site on-site noise levels before exceeding the exterior limits specified in this um specified? Um, let's see. We also have questions about security measures. Um, we wanted to know what security uh company was going to be issued for emergency services. We wanted to know if we could see an agreement or some sort of letter from um the emergency provider to make sure that there is someone that's going to be on site. Um in regards to the emergency respon response plan, um we wanted to know what their plan was in regards to any incidents, medical emergencies, fires, severe weather events. Um Now the applicant did address uh that you know if there was going to be some severe weather they would cancel the event. However um we didn't get anything in regards to like what happens if there's you know severe weather that happens while the event is going on. What is their plan? Um so those are just some of um sec some life safety issues questions that we had that we didn't get um information from the applicant.

And I would note on the traffic study issues that the the traffic study wasn't per se while they did try and make some modifications and address some of the concerns, the main concern that public works had at the end of all of it was that there is a limited site distance issue on Southeast 45th and that with the site distances that anytime time that the stopping site distance was going to be an issue if there was a queue of westbound vehicles that were formed waiting to turn into the facility. Um, also and the mitigation to the issues that was brought up by the traffic engineer in that case was that they could add lighting at the entrance, but the the problem with that is that that doesn't address any stopping or sight distances during the daytime. That may make an impact at night, but these events start at 4:00. And if those same site distance issues are at issue in the afternoon, that's not going to make an impact. And so the public works department was hoping that there was going to be some sort of comment to address those specific issues. And that went back and forth between public works and the applicants um representative with no factor addressing that. And so we don't feel like there's safe stopping distance at the entrance in order to accommodate up to 400 attendees at that location. And you know, the the noise study, we did provide you with a copy of that. And while they did list some mitigating items, one of the things that they noted was that landscaping in and of itself doesn't really help mitigate noise. Um, you know, it could be used in conjunction with some other items. But one of the recommendations was, I think, believes something along the lines of a

20- foot fence, which is just illogical. We can't put 20 foot fences up to try and block noise from an event. Um, so, you know, our question to them was, "What is it that you're going to do to help maintain that?" And they indicated that they would, you know, turn the the sound down. But if you're not monitoring how loud the sound is outside of the area or at the neighboring homes so that you're keeping it to a reasonable decel, um, how is it that you're going to control that? Because you're not going to know what that is if you can't provide any sort of mitigating um, control to that. Um so based on the facts that we detailed in the the three reports that have come up over the last six to eight months um the planning staff still finds that the proposal doesn't meet the golden factors and we're recommending that the the planning commission deny the recommend denial of the conditional use permit. Um so we would see that motion as follows. the planning commission finds that the request does not meet the golden factors and recommends denial of the conditional use permit request. Um, if you have specific questions for us in regards to those golden factors or in regards to our staff reports or the information that we've provided you today, then please let us know. Do the commissioners have any questions for staff at this point? Yes. I just have one. Is there excuse me, is there a reason why the uh representative wouldn't answer some of those questions for you? Had they had those studies just not been done? Did they or do they not know? Um I'm I'm just wondering how if the representative kind of failed on their

end to respond or I don't I honestly don't know the answer to that because we you know those emails went back and forth between public works and the representative but we also addressed it multiple times not only within the staff report but in our request to the applicant for response and um my assumption can only be that there is no good mitigation factor for it other than what was recommended which was putting up lighting. Okay. Thank you. Joey, what is the cut off for a private event versus a public one? It's loose loosely. There is no specific um anything for a conditional use permit would be items that are put out. Um, I mean it depends on what the event is and there's a whole caveat of all the different events, but in a situation like this, if um they're putting it out to invite the general public to an event, then that's that would fall under a conditional use permit. Um, it would be no different than anybody else wanting to host a birthday party or a wedding or um any other sort of event on their own property or house. um you know, we don't have particular noise ordinances and everybody has the right to use their property to some degree without being told what to do. Um and so if it was an event for a family member or a friend or their themselves, graduation, wedding, whatever, they they're allowed to host those events. So, even if no matter what happens with this conditional use permit um being presented today, they still have the ability to host private events, parties, whatever on their property. Anyone else?

All right. Then, uh the next item is presentation by the applicant or representatives of the applicant. No. Or Carolina, do you want to um provide anything in response to any of the the information or um add anything to what we presented? Yep. Up at the podium. They still need a sign. Uh yeah. So um some of the information that was shared as far as some of the uh correspondence between the city traffic or county traffic control and our engineers. Uh I wasn't previous to that as far as what uh depth all that correspondence had gone. If I personally would have known that, you know, some of these items that were specifically called out um were needed, I I would have been happy to, you know, jump in and push a little more on our engineers and professionals that we've hired. Um that's why we invested so much uh money into them because we wanted to make sure things were done right and you know, if if we weren't privy to that information, unfortunately, we can't respond correctly. Um her did share some questions as far as uh you know severe weather, what would what would occur if it was forecasted. Um and we responded obviously by stating that we would cancel the event if the uh forecast was um unfavorable for that date. However, we um that was the extent of our conversation or email correspondence. Um anything beyond that was no nothing else

was discussed beyond that. Um, as far as additional comments being requested that weren't replied by us, uh, I'm unaware of. So, and that could have been my fault that I didn't read through the emails correctly, but as anything that I recall, that was the extent of the correspondence. Um the other thing is you know we've been going through this for a year now almost and you know I've invest my family my sister myself you know we've invested a lot of resources that you know we could have used somewhere else if we didn't feel so strongly about this um because we wanted to do things right. wanted to show the general public that our intention was to start it off right and you know we wanted obviously a decision in our favor but uh you know we respect the decision that whatever is made today uh and then you know thank you everybody for for hearing us through a whole year that's all I had thank you thank Thank you. We will um open the public hearing at this time unless commissioners have any questions for the applicant. I forgot to ask that. Sorry. You can always ask them a little bit later, too. You're not limited to right now if you do have a question or something that comes up. So, we will call for um comments from persons in support of the items followed by uh persons in opposition. So, is there any one that would like to make support comments? Support first. Yeah. And as people are getting ready to do all of this, please note that we do have

a sheet on the podium to sign, but I also have one on the uh desk in front of it so that we're not all waiting for people to fill in their information. You can always do it as you're waiting for the next person to to finish. [Music] Good evening everyone. Um just to kind of piggy back off what my brother said. Um some of those items that Harim had mentioned. Um so for example the sound or the noise study specifically because it is in like engineered terminology that many of us don't really understand or come across on a daily basis. It's kind of hard to understand. Um, I don't know if you had an opportunity to reach out to our sound engineer to get any clarity on some of those questions that you had. This isn't a time for question and answer. You'll have to just present your information. Okay. Okay. I just wanted to mention that because we emailed back and forth and that was, you know, one of our conversations. So, I didn't know if you were able to get around to that. Um, so like my brother said, we've been working on this for now a year, if not over a year. And um, it just seems like we could come up with many solutions or try to mitigate the many questions or concerns that the public has or the neighbors have. But um at this point it doesn't really seem like we could do right by this. Honestly, I think most people have made up their mind. And unfortunately,

um you know, we did feel strongly about this and still do. Um, unfortunately, you know, it's not really working out for us, but uh, thank you to everyone and, you know, if you did consider it for for a moment and kept an open mind, thank you for that as well. Um, yeah, and that's it. Thank you guys. Is there anyone else speaking in support? Then we will ask for persons to that want to speak in opposition of the application. Make sure um that this isn't, you know, address new things, not stuff that we've all already heard. Everybody has heard those already or has them in front of them. So, uh good evening. My name is Josiah Jackson. I live at uh 6221 Southeast 44th Street. Um, are you able to pull up the map specifically with 44th Street? I wanted to address something with that traffic study. So, well, it's going to be kind of hard. So, the area in question, I can pull it up on a GIS map. If you want to start talking, I can Yeah. So, the the area in question right there is right in front of the cemetery. If you are westbound on 45th Street, there is a sharp drop right in front of the cemetery and then it comes to a rise right in front of the property in question. So there's no way to mitigate traffic coming from the east without raising that road because no matter where you place the entrance, it's going to be right there. So if somebody's coming out of that that bottom, it's going to be an issue. So I just wanted to bring that up to clarify some of that. I'm sorry, my mouse

is I'm trying my hardest. This isn't like I feel like you guys have been here before when we've had these same issues. Okay. Here's So, here's uh nose property and the cemetery that you're talking about is right here. Yes. And the entrance to the cemetery, if you notice, it's on the western edge of that that area. that is at the crest of that that rise. So if you are just to the west of that entrance and you are in front of the cemetery, you cannot see a vehicle unless they're dump truck or something fairly large. So I just wanted to add some clarity to that for those who aren't familiar with that street. Thank you. Hi, I'm Kent Dedric. I live at 6343 Southeast 45th. That drive that comes out of the cemetery right across the street is mine. And I live right on the other side of 45th Street. Um, I have given you all written testimonial in the past two meetings and I hope you still have that. Uh, so I will address new issues. Um, speaking of traffic, Saturday while this event was going on, um, I was leaving my house about 6 o'lock. There was traffic coming both directions down 45th Street. Traffic slowed drastically on the entrance to the event. Uh, as I was coming home at 10:00 that evening, I had to stop in the middle of 45th Street. There were people turning around in my driveway because

they had missed the entrance. So, the safety factor for for traffic is is considerable. Um the noise issue is is an issue that I think we've all discussed many times and you can see that it is a problem. Sun or Saturday after we went out to dinner, we were over at a friend's house at Lake Javaro which is another um half 3/4 mile to the north of that. As we were sitting there about nine o'clock, thought we heard the dog barking, went out. No, it was the noise from the band. The So the noise issue is far greater than what is represented with the thousand foot area on Sunday, which like I said, I'm straight south of that area. I was out back cutting firewood. I was sitting on top of my running John Deere diesel tractor and the band was playing loud enough I could hear everything. When I turned the tractor off, I could hear every word that was said and I'm over a half mile away when I'm back where I'm cutting wood. So, the noise issue, the only way to mitigate that would be to put up an entire building and seal it. Plain and simple. Um, I would like to have a definition of what a private event is. I I know that this is not the spot to do that, but is a private event something that you have friends, family relation. What if funds are changing hands? Is that then a private event or is it a public event or is it something that is being sold? So,

um, that's that's the biggest concerns we have. So, anyway, thank you all very much. Anyone else? After that is over, you'll have a chance. Yes, you'll have an opportunity. Okay. Well, I guess the next idea is Oh, you're he's speaking against All right. on Stanley Road at approximately 37th Street and I can hear the goings on at the these events. Well, just for example, when Shaunie Heights plays a football game, I can hear their games, but they're over by nine o'clock at night. You know, I hear the band at halftime. I hear these events, they drown out the noise that the band at Shiny Heights or the PA at the football game makes big time. But I can hear both from my house. But like I said, the events at Shauny Heist are over by 10 o'clock at night. I've lived in that this area since 1973. The school was there in 73. I've been there since 73, but the school is okay. You know, that was there when I moved in. This wasn't. This is why my parents had Mom still lives in the area. It's why she still lives here. Nice quiet area. It's why when I bought my house in the 80s, I stayed in the area because we didn't have stuff like this. Because like I said, I heard the event Saturday

night. Then I woke up, started working in the yard on Saturday or Sunday and it was still going on or at least there was still noise coming from there. It might have been a different event. I don't know. But when I drive by there Saturday night, there's people taking money as they come through the gate. And this does not meet my definition of a private event because when I have friends over, I don't stop them at the road and collect money from them. I don't know if anybody else in this room does, but I don't. So, like I said, they're already having events here. And I talked to a friend of mine who lives much closer than I do, and he said he thought it was more of a rodeo going on there Saturday night than a music festival. So, I really don't know what they were doing, but I know it was noisy. And as far as the traffic goes, I've had the workmen that are building their house pull out in front of me as I've come down 45th Street and come over the hill there by the cemetery because this drive for their house is one that you have to be kind of careful going in and out of because there's a lot of well anymore there's a lot of big truck traffic on 45th Street and some of these semis they go move along pretty good clip and anyone that travels it can tell you they do and where this driveway is for this house or or a van or whatever is is not in the best location for getting on and off 45th Street. Anyway, that's my thoughts and thank you

[Music] What is anybody taken into consideration as far as restrooms for a large gathering like this? Has that been discussed at all in the past? Yes. Can you give our uh your name, please? Roger Crouch. Uh again, we don't do questions at the public comment time frame, but yes, it has. Okay. And the hard surface parking for that large of an event. And as far as the drive goes, I was just about in an accident there with a horse trailer pulling out coming back from Lawrence headed west on 45th Street about it was last fall. So that is the driveway to that house. Whoever approved that is in the wrong location. Plus they have planted shrubbery out by the road which is only going to make that a worse of a problem. Hi, I'm Marshall Miller. I just had a question about the landscape plan that uh was shown there on the site plan. It showed much of uh trees. So is that plan based off trees being 10 or 15 years old? Because usually on a construction site when something's new the trees are half inch thick or you know the trunks of them. So, is there some kind of a U the facility couldn't open till the trees are 25 foot tall or something like that? Just kind of wondering about

that. Anyone else? Um if not then the applicant will have the chance for rebuttal uh comments. So um to address some of the uh traffic concerns um the existing drive was approved by um the county. I mean, we presented where we wanted uh to eventually build and that was the location that we were told uh you know that that would serve the purpose of entering the property. Initially we were using the cemetery um entry right here because again to this point that was the highest point at the crest to the property and when we purchased the property the that was the existing entry. So, not knowing to me when I purchased the property after, you know, several several maybe a year after I used uh purchased the property, um I was told I couldn't use it no longer. So, then that's when the west entrance came into play and that's uh that's why we applied because we were no longer allowed to use it. Uh and to go back to the uh rodeo venue, um the site plan and where we are um basically wanting to put the new entry for this venue would be right beside the in this area here again to address some of the traffic issues and sight distances. Um because obviously as several people have expressed that's probably the best location I drive into the property. Um it it wasn't a concern, you know, um before I purchased the property because it was used for, I don't know, agricultural purposes, but

now that I'm live, I'm going to be living there, it is a concern for me as well. Um you know, having this property here, initially we wanted to have this again. So, um, like I said, our plan, business plan shows the entrance going right beside the cemetery to avoid some of these concerns with the traffic insight, uh, concerns. Um, and then as far as the, uh, party that we had Saturday, um, I don't know what where the comment came from as far as money exchanging hands, but I believe that's a malice statement because at no point any dollars were exchanged between anybody. Um, that was my family. That was my father's cousin who had his birthday out there. And, you know, we're a really big family. We had family from out of state coming um to you know to have a good time with with the rest of us. U at no point no money was exchanged and that is honestly that's something that I really feel strong about that somebody would state something that they're unsure of um because I mean at what point does it become a defamable statement? Um other than that on again Sunday we did have people out there but it was just our family. Obviously we had a party which uh generated some cleanup the next day um and just you know organizing our property and that was just strictly cleaning up. So like somebody mentioned it started at 2, ended at 5 um and that was the extent of of Sunday. So, that's all I had to say. I

have I have a question. Okay. We've uh addressed a lot of things, but please uh answer this one for me. If you if we do have a rodeo venue out there, uh would you please uh state or restate what you're going to do with the animal waste and with what equipment are you going to deal with that uh animal waste? Absolutely. Um so we do have specifically for the rodeo event we have 18.75 acres I believe something around that amount which gives enough amount uh property basically to disperse you know the animal um and fertilize some of our properties because we do have you know we want to continue to uh have hay and broom out there. So um you know that's what we would use it for. our neighbor to the to the east has about at least 50 to 100 cow uh you know cows out there. So, you know, as far as the waste and what we would do with it, it would just be the same as what our neighbor to the east would do, which is, you know, spread it throughout the property and fertilize what's there. Uh we do have equipment on site. We have track loaders, a track loader that we would use basically to spread um all over all of that uh manure or whatever. I would I do want to clarify that none of these state uh animals are permanent to the property as they are basically they they're owned by people that you know travel the country uh doing this for a living. So any all of the animals that would be utilized for a rodeo would be brought in that day or you know a day before just in preparation of the event. Thank you very much. Y any other questions?

Thank you. Thank you. Uh we will close the public hearing and um the commissioners may ask questions or have discussion. I will start. Um you know I I want to say that I normally do not come in with any sort of um idea how I'm going to vote. I I read, I listen. Um, and even, you know, me reading everything beforehand doesn't necessarily determine uh how I'm going to vote as uh many people get frustrated because they don't know what I'm going to do. Um, and that's okay because I want to hear all points of views. I want to understand um I I want to, you know, make sure I hear what Joanie is saying and and what my fellow commissioners um have to say and and um and so I I don't want anyone to think that I already have a preconceived notion about what I I plan on doing. Um, I will say since this has since this has been brought in front of us for almost a year and I think it was one of our first uh meetings, Chad, if I remember correctly and um I was so looking forward to seeing what this could be and I understand the family and uh this has been something that has been part of uh part of their family um lineage since before um and the high hopes and and um entrepreneurial aspects that they hoped at this and and working with the community um and you know Shauny Heights and and having school lessons and things out there too. Um you know in the back of my mind I'm thinking how great it

would be to have another revenue source for the school district um because there isn't anything out there. And so my hopes were really high that this would be some, you know, venture that that we could approve. Um, and you know, I I I live in Shauny Heights. I've driven down 45th Street. I even went to the North Topeka area to see what that looked like. And um, and I've visited with the owner there and and what they do on their um, rodeo nights. and kept thinking, well, maybe there's a chance that this could work out. And um, you know, unfortunately, I just don't think that there is at this point. I don't know if there's another time when you could come back again and have a lot of these questions answered. Um, I really feel like your engineer didn't answer some of these questions that we really needed answered and and you know, that's of concern. Um, and so at this time I I don't feel like I can consciously um say yes, this is a vote that I I would hang my hat on. Um, but I don't think that you had any ill will in wanting to make this happen and I think your intentions were great. Um, I think this would be a great, you know, asset for you and your family and to continue your heritage. Um, I I just wish that there were more answers that were in black and white that I could go and agree with this. And I understand the concerns of your neighbors. Um, and the music and the loudness and the traffic concerns, which, you know, doing the traffic study again would be very important because safety is always something that's important to me, especially with high schoolers that are driving down that street. That's a huge concern. Um, and I know that came up in

another topic of discussion with some Seaman students that were driving down the road. And, you know, again, I felt that was of huge concern and that if that was of that big of a concern for those patrons, um, that they needed to talk to the Shauny County Sheriff's Office about that. Um, so right now, I don't feel like I can vote for this. Um, but I do understand where you're coming from. Um, I understand where your neighbors are coming from and so I empathize with everyone, but it's just not a good decision at this time with the way everything is laid out yet. Do any of the other commissioners have questions or care to make a comment? Can you zoom that out a little bit and just so I can see for my own edification where most of it's RA and RR where's the next closest I mean, is this this is all agricultural and residential? I mean, I'm trying to think of what all is out there, but I'm trying. Okay, so I've clicked on the zoning layer and it should pop up. So, where this property is, so the dark green is RA, so rural agricultural, and then the light green is residential reserve. And so you can see as this pulls up, as it takes a moment to populate. And I'm going to keep my mouse here. This again is the rodeo site. And then it is pretty. So this is Shauny Heights Road. And you can tell that there's a lot of residential area along Shauny Heights. And then along 45th, um, it's kind of spotty. You know, there's a lot of agricultural even within the residential reserve. We have

a lot of agricultural use and so there is a lot of a use all around and surrounding. You have Lake Javaro to the north and you have Lake Shauni to the west. Um, you know, you have the query over here, quarry over here. Um, and so lots of different stuff going on in this area, not just the neighbors. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions or discussion? If not, are the commissioners ready to take action? I'd make a motion to deny the application based on the fact that it does not meet the golden factors. I'll second that. Okay. So, we have a motion by Chad Gearhart. We have a second by Dan Bryan. And I'm going to take a roll call vote at this point. Um, so the motion to deny means that if you vote yes, you're voting to deny. And if you would vote no, you would be voting that you wanted to approve. Okay. So, uh, Chad Gearhart, yes. Myron Lenwinner, Terry Robinson, yes. Dan Bryan, yes. Rosa Kvasos, yes. Janette Johnson, yes. Okay. So, with a vote of five to zero, the recommendation is for denial. Um, this will go to the board of county commissioners uh for consideration. So all cases whether they are recommended for approval or recommended for denial still go to the board of county commissioners and they do hold a hearing on it at that place.

Now I want to make a big note here on this. The board of county commissioners have changed their meeting dates. They used to meet on Thursdays for action items. So this meeting would have h been held on a Thursday but instead it is going to be on a Monday. They this year have changed to have their action item meetings on a Monday. And so it will be Monday, May 12th. That's different than what would have originally been on the schedule. So Monday, May 12 is when this will go to the BCC at 707 Southeast Quincy. Um if there's any questions about that, um no. And Carolina, please reach out to us or for any of the the public that are here. All right. Then our uh next item is a discussion on planning related issues. Um, so we have some solar energy conversion system regulations we're going to be uh talking about and uh that will be uh you're welcome to stay but we won't be having a public hearing on that. He has a question as far as obviously amount of traffic And this is separate from you know as you guys mentioned you know going east to the east there will there be a point where there's some sort of cautionary life you get I would reach out to the public works

director Curtney House and see what the the plans for 45th will be. Yeah. Yes. His his desire would be to put a culde-sac in at 45th and Shny Heights Road, but that's not going to be able to happen right now. But my recommendation for any questions about cautionary items would be to reach out to Curtney House at public works. Roundabout. What did I say? Coldaces. Not a culde-sac. Roundabout. Maybe a culde-sac would stop your issues because then nobody would be able to go anywhere. A roundabout. Thank you, Chad. Thank you. Thank you. I was I was imagining where this new neighborhood was going. I was like I had no idea what she meant. I was like, where is this neighborhood going to go? That would be called a roundabout. Unless we're too polite, you bring it up. But um so the next item on the agenda is actually public comment, but there is no one here for public comment. So we will go straight to so and even then I was going to ask if you wanted to move public comment to after solar just in case um since this is just a work session. Um I'm going to get out of this PowerPoint because actually I'm going to pull up the sheet that did you hear what we were doing? Maybe he just taken a break. Yeah, one guy. Well, then how about the next thing I would like you guys to consider then is a motion to move public comment to after the solar so that if um if he does come back in and if he wants to say anything that we could consider public comment after the solar discussion. I move all that. I second

Uh, vote. Janette Johnson, yes. Rosa Kvassos, yes. Terry Robinson, yes. Dan Brian, yes. And Chad Gearart, yes. Okay, so motion passes five to zero. Public comment. Okay. Um, I'm going to be honest and telling you that I haven't spent a whole lot of time doing a whole lot more um on solar conversion systems because I really feel it's important for us to really discuss the size of the parcels because the size of the parcels that you may allow with solar is really going to make a huge impact on things like setbacks. Um, and and I want to be, you know, you'd asked Dan, you'd asked the question at the last meeting about, you know, where I came up with the number of 150 to 200. Actually, I just came up with it. I'm I have no preconceived notions. I just know that the bigger the parcels get, the more intense and the more issues that could come up. In my opinion, um I think that the smaller the parcels are with solar energy conversion systems, then obviously you have fewer um panels, arrays, whatever it may be um on those parcels. Now, also to that degree though on a caveat to that, the smaller the parcel, the easier it is to fit it places. um if you require 150 to 200 acres, then it would entail needing to have a larger set of acreage together in order to get a solar farm in. So, I think that there's some pros and cons to doing, you know, no bigger than 20 acres

or no bigger than 50 acres. Um, I think it could go either way, but honestly, I don't have I have if you said to me today, Joanie, I don't think that we should do more than 25 acres. I would say, okay, let's move forward with the concept that we're only going to do 25 acres. Now I think in in contrary to that my understanding is that to do at least one megawatt I think that the ones that we have that are currently like 15 acres they needed all of that acreage to get that one megawatt and if we start putting 150 200 500 foot setbacks it's really going to shrink down the size to an area that's smaller and then you may not even still be able to get the one megawatt. So it could be in a you know situation where we say we don't want it to be any larger than one megawatt. Um you know and maybe that limits the size of what it is or we don't want anything more than you know 2 megawws. Now I cannot tell you what that necessarily means. I just know that when Everg and Free State were doing their first solar farm projects, when we discussed additional setbacks and shrinking it, they they said to us, "If it goes any smaller than what we have, it puts it below that one megawatt and it no longer makes it financially feasible or logical to do it at all." And so I just think that um you know if we want the ability to do these solar projects, we probably need it to be bigger than 10 to 15 acres. It needs to probably be at least 25 um to allow for some setbacks from locations. Now again, the smaller the parcel, the closer it could be to residential homes because you can fit it into much smaller

locations. Um thoughts questions. Still the ability to say we said 25. They could stack a couple of 25s together and build a bigger one. Would that we could put a height requirement. I mean depending I So sorry not height like 25 acre pot here, 25 acre. Um I would still absolutely recommend that you put some sort of depending on what size you pick. I still recommend that you put some sort of distance requirement between them because otherwise, you're right, they could do multiple 25 acre parcels nearby one another. Yeah. Are there are there bigger? I mean, one megawatt is what they said they need to break even or make financially feasible. Is there what's a maximum? I mean, what are I don't even know. I didn't thousands of acres. I think the one in Douglas County is like 1500 to 2,000 acres. I mean, I think that, you know, some of the counties have put maximums on them and they're like 2500 acres. It's a lot. But is Douglas counties complete? I don't know the answer to that. They I mean, they've had a lot of struggles going back and forth and negotiations on the various obstacles and they have a lot of reports that have to be accomplished as a part of all of that. I do not think that it's complete, but that would just be my guess. Josh was requ Yeah, I don't remember. Well, the point there is if you're wanting right local development right into the power they may require me.

Yeah, it may be that no logical person is ever going to come in and ask for 100 acres because really the look is it's either small, local, or mega. And and honestly, I don't know because what you hear about the most are the the mega ones. You don't hear as much about the smaller ones. I know small local being free state. Um not every's pretty big, right? Um what I guess when I say small local, I mean they're just it's not an outside entity who's looking to come in and do a utility scale that's 2500 acres. It could be more just I I call it local entities. I mean EverG may want at some point to have a much larger but again you know it's the process that it goes through to to connect but this would limit anybody including ever from being able to do it. Joanie did you say 2500 acres? Is that okay? 2,500 yard. I thought that that's what you said. I was just looking up because when we were in Vegas, I saw those um solar fields. They're on I just had to Google it. They're on 640 acres. Yeah. So, and they're a lot. The Pot County So, Pot County has a long-term moratorum on larger solar farms. They added kind of as a not by right but within their a dis district district you can really put a smallcale solar garden is what they call it instead of a solar farm up to 16 acres and again that would fit what we have currently. Harvey County is prohibiting any sort of commercial or

utility scale. They allow personal or limited which would be to your own home. Um, but limited is like that definition where we discussed where it's kind of like churches or groups or schools or neighborhoods coming together and doing it as a group, but they limit theirs to 10 acres. Um, how big is Free States again off of Auburn Road? Like 15 acres, less than. Yeah. And then it looks like Sedwick County, they define theirs as a small scale as 10 acres or less, which again, I'm pretty sure that 10 acres, you're really cutting it close to even being able to fit one megawatt on there, unless you're going all the way to the edge. The edge, you couldn't have any setbacks of any kind, right? Uh medium scale, they say 10 to 50, which I think is funny because I mean, medium scale, that's still really tiny. Um and large scale, they say 50 acres or more. But then they say that um they're prohibiting them in the urban growth area, which in our area would be pretty much the area right around the city of Topeka, not just the three mile. The urban growth area is a much smaller area within their city. Um and then they say cannot be more than 1500 acres. So you're looking at a large scale can go from 50 acres all the way to 1500 acres. Douglas County is limiting theirs to a thousand acres unless the BCC approves larger. Now, I am almost positive that the one they have pending right now is larger than that. However, I don't know if their limitation is a thousand acres of the solar panels and solar arrays or if they mean a thousand acres as the project area as a whole because really you have to define both. like you even if we say 50 acres my recommendation would be that you put a limitation that says no more than 75% of that can be the

solar arrays you have to have some open space around it and setbacks so I I'm not sure with that thousand acres what that exactly means so discussion tell me what you guys you're not making any decisions necessarily but you can you can say well I would move to to do this but we don't none of these are decisions that are final in the long run you could come back and say you know what we've discussed all these things and I really think we should make it bigger what you're doing at this stage is kind of giving me direction so that I know based on what you're hoping and thinking that this is how we'll keep it to fit into so tell me what you guys are thinking when you're thinking solar in Shauny County what is it in your mind well the biggest difference you know as looking at the different counties in my mind there there are two issues that come into play. One is if you're going to be removing a lot of trees and vegetation to clear an area to put solar panels in, I'm not sure that's in the public interest and would find public favor to put it that way. Second, my the other thing is is is if there is going to be uh a solar field of some kind, it would have to require uh some sort of screening so that it is it is not visible. So when I stop and think about the first criteria, I would I would say, you know, we we can go anywhere from as small as they want, you know, which, you know, you're probably 15 20 acres is probably

minimum and probably limit it to 50 acres and I I don't know where they're going to find a 50 acre site where they're not going to either be taking up crop land or maybe they could do an 80 crop land or pasture or an area with a lot of trees. I don't know what farmer is going to sell a solar farm 80 acres of prime farm ground or if they are they're getting a a pretty penny for it. So anyway, I I would I would if in my mind I I would think 80 acres would be the maximum. So you're saying like up to 20 for the small scale and then up to 80 for Yeah. However, however we want to label it. Yeah. And I'm just saying 20 acres because that's you got to get to one megawatt with some kind of setback. P. Personally, we I mean, we're going to get down to this, you know, as I've spent time talking to people about this. The whole idea of solar panels is not that big of a deal as far as even with airplanes and all that kind of stuff. Spent a lot of time talking to folks about that. Uh it's I would be more concerned about if they were going to put battery storage that talking to talking to firefighters, they don't like battery fires. So I mean I know that's a whole different discussion. So as far as the solar, I don't I'm not I'm not concerned about that if we want to limit it, you know, to even more than that. I just I'm more concerned about get to if we get to battery storage which I I assume the two things go hand in hand they can and they

can't I mean battery storage can go with a solar facility for sure um but they can very well be independently maintained as well and we discussed last meeting that if they set them up like free state next to the transfer station or transfer station then they don't have to store it all they just pop it right in yeah that's correct I was like 50 acres. But I mean I can see AD being reasonable too. I mean if we can kind of work in that zone then maybe people who are knowledgeable can tell us if that is because you don't want to discourage the development of them and if someone smarter than me comes up here and says well we need to get to about three megawatts for it to really be profitable. I mean maybe free state was smaller but you might need something more. Um but if they can't do it within 50 to 80 acres that's That's a lot of solar panels. Yeah. 80 acres is a lot of It's a lot of ground. Are there any counties around that have handled these only by everybody does it? Well, oh, I'm maybe what you have to realize is that there's a lot of unzoned counties and so the un if you're not a zoned county really you have no control over at all. They can come in and just do whatever. Yeah. But a zoned county without solar regulations. Well, so how that has played out is that those that have heard about solar coming in have then begun to implement some level of zoning regulations so that they can in turn implement solar regulations. And for the most part, all of them are done through a conditional use permit. If it's zoned, right? If they're a zoned county, then

you have to have the set of regulations. You can just condition the No, no, no, no. You would I I am for the most part we don't know about it if they're just doing it as like a open conditional use permit, not considering anything whatsoever or having any regulations in place. For the most part, what we hear about are the ones who have put the regulations in place for the purpose of doing the conditional use permit. So, you do both? like you you don't like I know that you and I have talked previously about you know do we put solar regulations into place or do we just see them on a case by case basis condition the applicant yeah condition the case by case but it doesn't give in that case then it doesn't give the applicants any direction so it's kind of twofold not only does it not give the applicants any direction but um depending on who the planning commissioners are at the time like you all may be seasoned with solar farms but in 10 years they may not know anything and so they may want a little bit of direction. So it can go either way. I just don't know of any counties who do it as a conditional use permit without there being some sort of regulation already in play. And if we get these regulations written and in place, do they still have to come here to present their plan? Yes. So they would even once we have regulations approved, it requires them to come in for a conditional use permit just like the rodeo venue for consideration. So even in that you still have regulation and control. It just these regulations give them kind of a guideline for what it is that they're wave a regulation inside of a conditional use permit. Well, if we can't, surely the county commissioners can because uh that other

county you put up there, who was it? Um they said they can go ac. So if I think if you wanted the ability to do that, you would put it in writing if you felt like there were specifics. So to technically to answer your question, once the regulations are in place, then no, that's what the regulations are and you have to follow those. If you want to get away from those regulations, then the answer is you have to come in and request a variance to that at the same time. Now, do we look at regulations and try and see where things fit in and can you wiggle around and sure there are decisions that administratively we make every day um where we say, you know, well, it's it's close enough. We'll go ahead and go with it. But for the most part, no. if the regulations are laid out, they're going to have to meet those specific things because that's why you have public hearings to specifically address and identify concerns and issues. And you know, say for instance, you had one topic that was a hot button topic within those solar regulations and you know, you had all this public comment about it and public eye and whatever. you make a decision and it's written in your regulations and then you know five years down the road they're like well we decided we're not going to follow that we're just going to do something. So you've just eliminated all of the due process that happened to put that regulation into place. So no I don't think that they could unless there's a specific allowance to give that authority that flexibility. I'm trying to find here where I'm at. So J are you envisioning regulations that would will not consider an application unless you're under 80 acres, you're under X, Y, and Z. Your setbacks are 200 ft. You're right. You're putting a Right. So, what we would do is we would

have like you we're going to allow consideration of solar farms or solar regulations, solar conversion systems. Here are the things that are required. you know maximum of 80 acres 75% of only 75% of that can be solar panels solar array you have to have so much set back your maximum height of the solar panels can be so high you have to do you know these engineered reports or these tests so you would lay out here are the the 10 or 15 things that you have to do plus planning commissioner board of county commissioners can add just like it Now, they can add other requirements if necessary based on the circumstances of the case, but at least it gives them some direction of what they're doing. I mean, you're looking really to limit liability on both sides for the applicant for anybody who would protest. Correct. I guess. Okay. So, here's our current solar farm right here, one of them. So, what you can is that is 13.6 acres. So, I was going to see and I can tell you I drive past that almost every day. I didn't even know it was there until you told me. They have a fence and then they have the plastic. Do they have the plastic? It just looks like it's part of the Yeah. So, the one Can anybody see? Is that 78 acres? Yes. Yep. 78.37. So I'm doing this as an example to say okay here is if you did 80 acres this is unplatted. So with road rightway it's probably 80 acres. So if you put a solar farm on this parcel and you said okay we don't want well obviously there would be a distance

issue but we're not thinking about that right now. You want a setback of let's go with 150 from the [Music] road. So that's about 150 from the road. Um I don't believe that that's a residence there. So um if there's no residential properties nearby, let's see if that one is. and you say you have to be at least 500 ft from a residence. Let's pretend this one. Well, I don't know why that's pulling up that box. Let's pretend this one is a residence and we say you have to be at least 500 ft. So then that means really to the property line, but then we say you have to be at least 200 ft or 150 ft from an A building. And let's say this one's an A building. So then you have to be 150 ft back here. So on this parcel, if you had kind of normal setbacks, what I'm going to do is a little measurement going. Whose microphone is that? Chad, is that yours? It's making noise. Okay. So let's say with setbacks on an 80acre parcel and you put solar panels maybe

not throughout all of that. This is 50 acres. So on an 80acre parcel if you had 50 acres of solar panels that's a lot of solar panels. That's a lot of solar panels. Yeah. I don't know what kind of storage requirements they have, but I mean that wouldn't be 80 acres of just solar panels. Also be the storage pertinances. Yeah. Roads and then any but again if you put any sort of limitation saying you can't have any battery storage on there. There may be just like with any sort of um you know transmission or substation there's probably going to be some sort of a pertinances involved. So you probably wouldn't have all of that as solar panels, but what you can see is on an 80acre parcel, if you have 150 ft of setbacks and then have to be a certain distance from residential properties, it could potentially um be huge. Yeah. Be pretty big. Yeah, I'm feeling like 50 might be the better answer with all those setbacks because that Six times larger than the one across the street. Here's that's 40 40. It looks like there's a lot of 40 acre 50 acres that may not be as you know 40 20 40 80 60 they're going to be more in the

realm. So it's kind of hard for I just like using as an example properties that are in existence to see what may be there. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Because if they're buying up land, it's going to be in 40 80 increments typically. But we could do 80. Leave it at 80. We just have bigger setbacks just to limit the size because it's wild west, right? We can do whatever we want right now. Exactly. Yeah. I don't see any specific property here that's helpful. And that one's 75. You know, and it could be that say for instance, you know, if you have, it doesn't have to be one single parcel. It could be a combination of two. So, if you have a two 20 acre parcels, you could have 40 acres together. Or in the alternative, if you have two 40 acre parcels, you could have so like, you know, if these two are each 40, they could do a conditional use permit for up to that 80, combining them together. It's just when they apply all the applicant information showing both parcels would have to come to us and then they on their site plan they map out around the entire parcel um showing and if they own 168 piece of 168 160 acre there piece of land they can just carve off. Yeah. And you don't even have to like they don't even have to plat it or survey it to take it off. just when they do the conditional use permit, the site plan would just just like with nose, except for he did actually carve out a piece. So, I guess that's an incorrect statement, but you can just carve out on the site plan the area. And then anytime we have a site

plan that's been approved, everything has to lay out just like on that site plan. And if it doesn't, then they have to come in for amendments. And depending on if it's a minor amendment or a major, it might come back in front of you for any changes. when it comes in front of us, what would the zoning change to then? It doesn't change on the zoning. So, the zoning when it comes to a conditional use permit, the zoning always stays the same. You're just adding a special layer on top of it with specific conditions. And so, my recommendation from the the beginning was that we probably limit this to RA and RR. You could limit it to just RA. Um, but you know, if I show you again the map of our county as a whole with the zoning layer, what you'll see is there's a lot of a land out there that falls in the RR zone because you can do a use in the RR. So again, light green is RR, R A is uh rural uh rural agricultural and then the RR is residential reserve. So light green RR, dark green RA and the current one that we've approved is in RR. And did you tell us last time does city of Topeka have any regulations right now for solar? I the ones we're talking about not personally don't think that they have any um I mean they have the VA there's but that's on federal land and so it's a little when it comes to federal land you don't have as much ability to regulate what the federal government can do on their own land. But even if that were in the

county because it's for the use of the hospital complex, right, they would be allowed to do it anyway. It could. Yeah, that's right. And again, if you limit the ability to use battery storage, chances are then is that they have to be close to a transmission line that they can tie into or a substation of sorts. Well, either that the the biggest thing about these battery fires is you from what I understand from firefighters is they can't they can't put them out. They can just cool them down. And so you would need have strict regulations as far as hydrants, you know, water pressure, all of that, so that if something does go wrong, they can get enough water on it without running out to cool the batteries down, depending on the size. And that gets fairly technical. I don't know how we're going to work through that, but that might be something that we just have to have them submit a report. Yeah. To deal with. I I I think what's really important for us to remember here is we if if this is if we're going to codify these things, I think we need to be thinking about the future and 80 acres and then limiting it, you know, would would would give somebody a reason to come put a solar farm in. And if there's multiple areas in which they could go in, then you could you could create enough energy. But, you know, I think energy, not for us, but for four generations down the line, I I really think we need to be thinking that far down the line because I don't know

that don't know how we're going to be producing electricity with our current thoughts of nuclear and and coal. Well, and you have to remember that our version of solar farms now could look very different than what solar looks like in the future as well. They're going to continue to evolution, right? Evolutionize, what a panel looks like and how they can gather that energy, transmit it will be the biggest issue. Okay. Okay. So, I've heard 50 acres and I've heard 80 acres. So, any other input, Chad? Chad doesn't want regulations. I I can see it on his face. I've heard it in his questions. Chad wants to just do it. Talk about wild west. He wants him to just come in and Well, I tell you, I get all of your points about having regulations. I mean, I've been the has sat on the other side of a lot of these boards which are always highly contested. They're a sensitive subject. Uh you know multiple counties and I just you know it depends where it's at in the county. Uh you know depend there's just a lot of different things that you know go into a rocky that I hate just having walking in somewhere and having a set, you know, here's your regulations. Either you follow these or it doesn't work because, you know, it may work. That's why I asked if we could get a conditional use permit, take out a regulation. you know, like for the solar for instance, you know, we're

zoomed in tight there where there's a lot of residential homes, but you know, where we drew that 50 acres, you know, you a little farther out, there's a lot of more expansive open spaces of some land that, you know, may not be suitable to graze, may not be suitable to, you know, there's a lot of rocky ground out there that, you know, you can't farm, you can't do anything with, you know, potentially a bigger one fits on. You know, does it sit down in a valley? At that point, you can't see the solar panels from the road. You know, do you need to screen it at that point? You know, natural buffer, you know, entrances in and out. Do we need to talk about road maintenance? The road maintenance isn't going to be the same for one solar farm versus another solar farm. So, I'm gonna pull up as you say that I've had conversations with the realtor and the owners of these. So, um golf course out here on 45th and Hope Road or former golf course, they have the parcels replated and they had them for sale. I don't know if new people have bought them. That's crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I've worked on multiple occasions with the owners of the properties right across. And what you'll see here is they have transmission lines that run through right here. And so they own like 800 600 to 800 acres over here. And but they're in like 200 or whatever chunks, but some of them are kind of landlocked. And they've talked about on this one right here, it looks like it's 160 acres. You know, is this suitable

instead for a solar farm because they are right next to the transmission line? And I do believe that there's rockier land out here. Um, right. So, if that specific parcel, we write these regulations for that specific parcel that might be the best fit in the county for a solar farm. They can't come to us. Well, so they when they talked about it, they talked, you know, 40 50 acres. They weren't going to do massive thing. No, they weren't going to do massive. But again, it depends on who owns it and what they want to do. Sure. But back to it, you know, a property that size, if we limit it to 50 acres, you know, that's out that's a great Yeah, that's a great example of a piece of property. on that one. Couldn't they they they can stick 50 acre farm in one corner, move over 200 feet or whatever we said. I mean, those are the setbacks. Whatever depends on you say they can't be within. So far, it depends on how far of a distance you put in between. Let's see. And the more he's talking, more I'm agreeing with him, but that's probably not a good Well, no. I just I like the fact that's a good thing. I I don't think we're not trying to Are you writing bad notes about me now? No. Dan, note to self, Dan Brian at the other end of the table, but I mean rather than getting it's all being recorded anyways when I read like C County stuff and all that. If we just had some because I like your idea of having some guidance so someone doesn't just come in willy-nilly. I mean, they need to know kind of what to prepare. We're going to want to know what your plan is for storage or transmission. But if we just had more overarching guidelines to get them started and then that way they show up and it's because everything comes down. Yeah. I mean, you know, with a rock for I've never went into a county that was zoned, you know, even the counties that

didn't have any regulations. We've never went into one of those counties and open conditioned us to what they felt fit the needs of our specific site. So in Shauny County with rock quaries, we we don't have like a rock quarry is permitted under a conditional use permit. Um period that's it. Now, I will say that we have a set of probably 25 conditions that we typically add um just by nature historically that we've done because they're the similar situation in almost all cases with rock quaries. And so, you know, from right off the bat, you say, "Let's lop these 25 conditions on." Now, could we modify our regulations and say we're going to automatically put those 25 on so that we don't have to reiterate all 25 of those every time we write a resolution? Sure, we can. But then again, as Chad is saying, or on the alternative, is it better to keep it open with the concept that we have 25 that we could add, but it could be that those 25 don't apply to every single situation or scenario. And you know, at this point, we haven't modified the regulations, but it's not to say that either way is right. It's more that our regulations just haven't been modified to. So I think that you know depending on the person that you're talking to you know one planning director may recommend one way and another planning director would recommend another. I personally think you should have some degree of direction. It may not be super specific. I know you know the Douglas County regulations are very very specific and I don't want that. I don't want there to be so many regulations that then we have to make sure and

monitor and meet because for every requirement that we put then someone has to follow up on those and make sure that we're following them. It's not just a condition we're writing down you know all of the reports and all of the you know follow-ups and all the you know all those things are things that we then have to follow up on. So, I do think that we should have something, but you know, of course, you guys are the deciding factor. And if you say, you know what, we've decided we're going to put that you can have solar farms, but we're not going to put what that means, um, other than maybe you can't have more than 150 acres or 120 acres or whatever, then so be it. That's that's how we move forward and present it to the BCC. Well, when I read all the different counties and what they did, the one that I liked and the one I followed up on and talked to folks who who wrote those regulations, Seduk County kind of had, I thought, kind of that clear but not overlimiting set of regulations. I I would agree that we would probably want to maybe use the same amount of their their sizes. But the the thing that was important about that was is from what I understand and and I wasn't privy to this other than what a a former county commissioner told me was they wrote it specifically and so they could escape any kind of liability that what they had would hold up if they were challenged. Uh I don't know in your realm of that's and if that's even something that you would want to consider but they considered it he heavily and uh so you know I I when I looked at

that I thought that was a the best framework and then you know we maybe adjust that you know adjust that from there that that's just an an idea that I had because I I I looked at all of them but the one I like the one I followed up on was Sedwick County and they a lot of work and a lot of time actually on it. And so I that's the one I feel the feel the best about to use as a framework which is now he's writing notes I like the idea of leaving the framework leaving it more open is not everything's going to apply to everybody all the time. And just like if the gentleman today had bought a different piece of land and there's rodeo site there, we have the ability to look at that and say, "Oh, if it was a couple miles over here, yeah, that would have been a slam dunk." It's affecting people here just you start getting hemmed in and if we're not allowed to if we have restrictions or regulations and we see something that doesn't make sense but we can't abandon that we have to stick to it. So we might have to deny something that seems reasonable because they don't for whatever I can't think of an example now but if if they if we say you have to have get real specific chain link fence with guards all up they're like well I'm building it behind the stand of trees. Okay I mean but we would in that sense we wouldn't be so specific as to say it has to be chain link with the slats. we would write that there has to be some level of barrier or buffering and then you can you know some of it in some cases if

it's far enough back from a road it may just be a burm it may be trees it may be a fence some of that also has to do not like you said with location but distance from neighbors and roads and the you know the further you are away from people the easier that is to do is there as we're giving them guidance just to like list out the things that we would want to see like we want to see what your water runoff and flood plane you have to have a study done on this you have to have a um yeah someone I mean just lay out we want you to be able to present these 10 things to us and maybe we do throw on some specific um we can agree on specific standards for these but mostly just make sure that they have all their eyes do and tees crossed and I can't But you know what what is your storage or transmission plan? What is your emergency response plan? How you going to handle that? The water supply or whatever. And then they can just bring us that information rather than us saying you have to have a building this big or x number of water hydrants. Is that harder or easier to write because it's so vague in general? I think that you could So when I looked at I believe Coffee County, several of them had, you know, requirements for you have to require these reports or you hire a specific kind of engineer and they are the ones that help present those specific reports to the commission for your consideration. Um, I think, you know, it just depends on again how many different reports you want to have and then with those reports, who's following up on them and is there any sort

of, you know, licensing requirements or follow-ups to that. I think it could go both ways. The other thing to think about maybe would be the more spec specific you get. If people meet those requirements, then you're almost in a position where you have to grant their request might otherwise. Yeah. If we had written up a whole bunch of regulations and he was able to check each of those boxes, we would have to agree whether we thought that was in the best interest of [Music] And just as an attorney, if you make people spend a lot of money to get an application in front of you, they're more likely to continue spending money to challenge whatever decision may or may not studies, environmental studies, walking away is a lot harder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean even with the rodeo to that degree, I mean the amount of money that he put into that with the reports and stuff that we required and then it still gets voted as recommending denial. But to that end, once you get a project in front of someone, even if you get a no, you can come back and refile later. There's a one-year waiting time frame, but you can come back and file again. It just and then at that point you may have a better idea. I'm game with more generic regulations. I mean I think that my biggest concern being is size. Um I think the biggest concern for me is size size and then probably set

back from res from a residence. I'm not even as concerned from setback from a road because if you look at like I said I drove past that one. I had no Yeah. You have no And you know you were Terry was talking about on airports federal government has rules allowing for solar farms on air traffic areas. So even when I when I called out to the um MTAA to say hey you know Forbes field what do you guys think about this? what kind of regulations do you want? And they were like, really, we don't care. Wind farms they're a little more concerned with because of height concerns, but the glare wasn't a concern of theirs. So now are we thinking 50 or 80 acres is not? Yeah. As a max. Well, I mean just point to that one that you had contact with. I mean we got to up that significantly because you don't want I mean they are in a great spot to do it and it benefits everybody. They're right next to transmission lines. We could always if I guess if we set it at acres. Probably most people could be bringing us 25, 40, 80 acre ones, but that leaves it open for someone to bring a bigger one. And if they wanted, if they bought up a whole bunch of land, say really close to Topeka, they would not be they bought up 300 acres around all this area and they want to put it there. It still be harder in there because you're going to be close to so many other residences. So really, you're just you're leaving the top of it open. you know, the really rural areas at the edge of the county as you you were

starting to get out almost towards county there. I saw K4 running around. No, and again, you know, the moratorum would be for wind, not solar. And so if we don't specifically regulate it from So no. So this one is it surprising they haven't modified that include solar I don't know I don't know if in that sense people just don't you know when it comes to view solar just is so different. What was the um acreage on the space that you were talking about with Chad before? This one? Is that the same space? This is the same one. It's 120 acres. That particular one. Oh, no, wait. 160. And I was trying to measure here some distances that it is away from residential parcels. And it looks like one was like 3500 feet and this one is like 5 to 6,000. I mean this is this specific parcel could be like hey this is a great place but you know are all of them going to be like that? Who knows? And um you know like I said the biggest thing to me would be you know putting some sort of size limitation and then making sure that we've got a good setback from a residence to and you know some counties have a setback from a residence of like 1500 feet and if you have a setback from a residence of 1500 feet it's really going to limit and especially in Shauny County where it could

And I don't know if you grade it whereby if it's 80 acres, you only have to be so far away from a a residence, but if it's 500 acres, you have to be this much further away from a residence. I think that that may set us up for a little more of a do you think a legal challenge that you're favoring one parcel over another if you're giving differing potentially. Yeah. The biggest thing you do want standards just so you don't run into a situation where I would say probably 600 acres maybe a little much in Shauny County. I think you would have a hard time getting a sixacre 600 acre parcel anyways. There's maybe a couple where you could combine them and get that or you know and this is one of them. They have 6 to800 acres but um well and that's the trouble. We're trying to even just generalize but we're trying to come up with regulations to allow potentially something like that. At the same time maybe a homeowners association up toward Shiny Heights wants to buy some money and put one there. They're two very different creatures, which is why Chad doesn't want to put regulations in place. So Chad, tell me if you devil's advocate, you don't you don't put regulations into place. We allow uh solar farms with a conditional use permit and then we get an application for um a utility scale for 1500 acres. Would you how would you feel having that come in front of you with no direction of what to do?

How we feel right now in the middle of this? I mean, seriously. But I just I back to what he just said. You never get one to come in front of you acres at 80 acres. Do I think there's room in county for 1500 acres of solar? I don't fit somewhere out there. I don't know. Maybe I fall back to. But again, you know, I did like the track that you started to go down on a like guidelines county. You know, there's 25 of them that you usually put on a application when it comes in, but you don't have to is what you said with those. Those aren't part of the they're just kind of standard standard comments that the So I I believe and you probably know more about this than I do, but I think that they came out of the Valencia Sand Pit lawsuit, right? And so after that lawsuit happened, then it was kind of like, well, here are the things that we need to require on each of these. Yeah. I mean I quite frankly don't think but back to it down that track is it a possibility to do this similar to have some protection for us ahead of time meaning we write a set of standards that

would be recommendations or whatever to follow but not make them mandatory. I don't know. We'll have to do Does that get us anywhere? We'd have to do some research and see. You know, I think the thing with any standards or recommendations is that they're just that they're standards and recommendations. They're not requires. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, you could instead of having you have to have these things, you could have you have to have a conditional use permit and you have to have these setbacks, but here are the other things that are just recommend recommendations. But if someone comes in with none of them then yeah I mean and I'm all for some type of residence on what that distance is but I am some kind of setback from result isn't as big of a deal but behind that something we've talked about, but I think there needs to be a discussion about some kind of bonding Well, just so that somebody's going bankrupt in the next two days, but you know, one of these one of these solar developers come in develop the land, put the solar farm in, and then they go back. Typically, these go most of these are on leased land, not purchased land. So, utility company doesn't own the land. They lease it from someone, right? They go belly up and then the lander has no recourse to, you know, get those solar panels off their land, put it back to something that you know is

usable. So, then they can collect and have some funds to to fix it. And then there is a life expectancy of solar panels too, 30 years. Yeah. So, typically we would want to see something with, you know, discussing they would have to give us a decommissioning plan, like what is their decommissioning plan? They would have to set a bond. Um, you know, and some of this that I wrote back are things that I pulled off of other regulations, like, you know, percentage of solar panel coverage within the project area. Um, we could not do any of that. You could just do a decommissioning and reclamation. You could do a bond. You could do um a drainage like well our public works department would require a drainage report no matter what. Um setbacks from residential parcels and other buildings and just you know have it a little more generic. But as I think that, you know, the thing that you're going to hear the most from people is that they're if it's too close to a residence, they're worried about the environmental or the the impact on their property and, you know, the glare, the heat dome, those things. But that all has to do with really how far they are from their property, not whether or not they care if it creates a heat dome. They just don't want it to impact themselves. Um, and so I'm game writing some kind of generic solar regulations and proposing a few items to you guys and seeing what you think. What do you think the commissioners are looking for? Do you think they're looking for something a

little bit more ironclad legally? Am I looking for the right person? I don't think I don't think so. I don't think that they have any preconceived notion. And you know, you say ironclad legally, but really that can mean a whole lot of things because not having any regulations can be ironclad. Um, when it comes to the legal standard of it, as long as we've gone about creating the regulations in the right way, it's going to be ironclad legally. It's not like counties have, you know, specific tor liability limitations. And so there's you I don't think that we're necessarily any of us are worried about it being a legal issue. I think that the more you regulate or overregulate that you're actually probably setting yourself up for more legal issues because once you've said, "Here are all the things we have to do and all the things they have to do and all the things that will be done." If you don't follow them, then you're setting yourself up for issues. And so maybe I was persuaded a little bit too much by the Sedick County former Sedick County Commissioner who who wrote their regulations to make sure that they they had all their bases covered. So, you know, that might not that might been a big deal for them and it might not be for us. I'm I'm somewhat somewhat, you know, I think when they were writing it, there was a lot of push to will only allow local developers and local use of energy and that's a big no no. Okay, you have to allow free flow of interstate commerce. So if an out of state company wants to come in and develop and transfer that power wherever they can sell it, that's just as allowable as someone who wants to use it more locally. So I think there that was probably what he was talking about. There was a big push to say no, we don't want our power shipped to

Oklahoma. They also were writing there. So they they originally did their regulations several years ago and then um went under a new moratorium and wrote additional regulations because after their first set of regulations they had a fairly largecale solar company come in and so then they got nervous about the large scale right and so you know we are not writing regulations under the push of an application, we're writing them, you know, open concept. And so it could be also that when you're writing them under the pressure of a big utility farm right there saying, "Well, we want you to do this and we want I mean, I think that legal muster may be a little bit more of an issue." And I think there was an a few miles north. What was that? I said just head a few miles north on that topic. Yes. In Jackson. regulations that legal pressure, right? Um, oh, the other thing Jody mentioned last time, so if you do conditional use permit, you have to remember some of it will apply when you're sitting in that quasi judicial function each time you get an application. So, a lot of the legal like thought will go into play then. So, under Golden Yeah. What are our setbacks going to be? And can you justify it based on you know you can have a minimum setback of 250 but maybe a project demands setback just because of the the issues present with that particular project thinking through those issues and can you justify the decisions that you're making

issues okay so I can write some generic stuff but my biggest question stills down. Do you want a size limitation? And what may that size limitation be? I think I I have a better idea now that we're not just saying 25 or 30 or 50. It could be larger. But do you I think if you don't put that the maximum is blah, then we will have the potential for someone reaching out and saying we want to put a 1500 or 2500 acre farm by gathering five or six parcels within an area. even if they're not side by side, they don't have to be contiguous um to make that fit. And so just recognize if you don't put a maximum that the potential is out there for the biggest solar farm possible. I think that's what concerns me the most is not having a maximum. And so listening, I mean, I agree with what Chad said about too many restrictions, but um I I just think that we have to have some sort of and I guess my magic number would be like 200 and not anything larger. just thinking about when I've traveled and seeing those and what those look like and um and how distracting they are and you know I was even concerned about driving and what is that going to look like as I'm driving and the sun's coming up this way or that way and I'm I mean it's not somewhere that I typically drive so I have no idea. Um, but just thinking about all of those things. And so if we think that 50 is not enough, but we want to have something that would allow them to use a little bit bigger. I would hate to say 500 and then we're way too big.

And so like 200 seems like a in my mind seems like a good little number there. um or 250 240 um would be fine, but I think like 500 just seems like so much. So, I don't know if if Chad is interested in in that. Um but like that seems like a good compromise. I would be okay with 200 to 300 300 max probably. I guess I grew up in a farm community. I'm always thinking of 80 acre tracks. Well, I'm thinking like along the lines if you're going 40 80 If you're going 200, you're going 240. Yeah. Yeah, right. That's the way everything's platted. I grew up in the city. I know nothing about farming and cows scare me to death. So just tell me how many blocks you want it to be. So 240 total. Are we talking about total acres? uh in the entire county at some point. Well, so I mean that's where the decision of if you say a max of 240 acres, but they can't be you can't have more than one within a mile of each other or two miles of each other. Um let me see if I can show you. We're gonna come back to our friendly little I'm going to clear off

all of my other markings. So, we're back to our friends that have 120 acres. I'm gonna sorry, 160. So, they fit within that 240. And then I'm going to do a measurement. Let's go. I'm also going to change this to distance. So, I'm going to measure out a distance and we're going to see if we go south one mile. So, here's one mile south. This mouse really makes a huge difference when you have to So if you say you can put a solar farm on that one, but then you can't have

another solar farm within a mile. I'm going to take the box off because that box is in the way. That's I mean the parcel does not show up but you can see a mile in every direction. I mean is a mile enough? A mile may not be enough. Do any of the counties have a regulation that just states a maximum number of acres total for solar the county or percentage? I don't think so. I feel like Butler County may have been the closest one that said something similar. How many total acres is Sha County? I know the answer to that, but I can't look it up right off the bat. We we did have that as a part of the um wind and solar stuff. I can't tell you that right now. 357,120. I don't think any single one of them said that you could have a like the I think it's kind of risky to say um we'll allow them up to this amount

because then once you get to that amount it's it's also kind of fluid because as we know they don't all go into place at one time and so if one dies off I I just I that to me feels a little risky to have a maximum capacity I haven't heard that in any situation more so than saying you can't one over 200 acres. Yeah, I think that there would be too many ways that people could potentially find loopholes around that. It just seems not fluid. I think it's easier to say you can do a max of 240. And then you have to have two miles between each of the prop property or the project area limits. My mind is well acres spread out across the whole county but just remember that not all of those acres fall in unincorporated Shauny county. Sure. So, like you would have to figure out how much of those acres falls within the city limits and you know because you would take all of that out because all of that is not unincorporated.

I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to kind of move forward with the concept of we put a maximum of 240 and then we do some setbacks from residential properties, not necessarily from roads. Um some bonding, some decommissioning concepts. Um, and then two miles between project areas and I'll put some stuff together so that we can look at that a little bit for the next meeting and you could see what that would look like. Are we going to hand you a storage separate thing? Um, yes. as a whole battery storage. We could go ahead and move forward with some battery storage regulations, but what I don't want to have happen is, and we did the same thing with wind and solar, we ended up separating them because you don't want the people who are really against battery storage um coming into conflict with getting something good accomplished with solar. Now, you can put a regulation on battery storage with the solar facility. That's not Can we not say for storage and or transmission like they have to present us something. I'm I'm not an expert. I can't regul uh in association with the solar or battery storage separate like as we're talking like we said we're going to take up battery storage later but as we're talking about maybe laying out guidelines or something make sure you have this report done make sure you commission then also make sure you have present plan for how you're going to store and transmit your your power. Should we're going to end up extending this moratorum on solar.

Yes. Is there a discussion that we should place a battery storage? You can you can make a recommendation. Yes, you could make a recommendation separately. Like I would do one for the solar and then you could make a recommendation for a moratorium on battery storage. As we as we sit here right now, Jackson County writes their regulations and writes their regulations to not allow for battery storage but they put forth a set of rigs for solar and the solar moves forward up there as we sit and as close as that solar development is they can approach county We don't have anything and as of right now that's how we would do it. Okay. So our next meeting is May 12th. The deadline to file a case for May was March 28th and we had the one over by Lake. We have one case um it's a re we have one case that's a resoning um the window and design building right outside of Silver Lake. They are on a industrial parcel and the owners and the owner's family own some of the parcels surrounding and they want to do a new reszoning for a parcel right

next door. Now, at the same time, they're needing to plat um but they didn't get the plat stuff in in time. So, at this point, we're moving forward with the resoning, but not the plat. Um to from R. It's going from RR to I one and they want to put up a building for storage and parking and such to support the window and design. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's going to be heard in uh May. And so, that one's moving forward already at this point. And so, then we would also I will work on doing some um draft solar rigs based on our discussions today to kind of give you an idea of what that may look like um that we could consider and see if it's what you're thinking. And then in May, you also need to make a move to extend the moratorum if you want to do that so that I can get that to the BCC prior to the expiration in June. You want to do that now? Can we do that now? I don't do it now. I would because I can put it on the agenda as an action item for next month. Okay. Yeah. And make it clean so that when we publish notice that that we're going to do it if anybody is in opposition that they can come and say something. get her done when it comes to solar. Well, after seeing what this is, I'll have I'll be sitt You may not have made an official decision today, but I feel like, you know, you guys have had some good meetings to discuss it now and have really thought about it. The first time

it's kind of hard to come in because, you know, it's wide open. you can do anything. And so until and that's why I wanted you to kind of narrow it down a little bit and have those discussions because it's hard for me to write not knowing if you are just like nah we don't want any of that. I don't want to spend time I don't want to waste time putting something together that you guys aren't interested in seeing. So okay all right if there's no further business we'll adjourn the meeting. Perfect. See you guys in May. Thank you. So, how hard is it