Budget Committee - Regular Meeting

Okay, good afternoon. I'm going to call this meeting of the Urban Renewal Agency Budget Committee to order at 302 and 32 seconds. Welcome all. Uh the first uh order of business is the election of the chair and secretary. I would like to call for nominations. I nominate Sadi as the chair. I'll second. And uh let's do Kathleen as the secretary. That was easy. I'll second nominations. Yeah. All opposed. Okay. Uh she doesn't. And so I'm sorry that was seconded. Yes. Yes. Uh all in favor say I. I. All opposed. All right. Thank you very much. Okay. So, uh approval of the minutes. Has everybody had an opportunity to review the minutes? Move to approve the minutes. Second. Sorry. Motion and seconded. All in favor? All opposed? One one extension. Thank you. And Z just uploaded the presentation. Just one second. [Music]

Thank you. Do I need a microphone? You stand right here. You should be fine. Okay. Sorry for those of you that I'm gonna show my back to, but uh welcome everyone. It's always a it's always a a fun experience to try to get 28 people into this room and it might get a little warm. So, I'll try to get through this uh as quickly as is appropriate, but uh welcome to the urban renewal budget committee meeting for 20 fiscal year 2026. Um this year, so we've gone through a couple uh couple of these already. Um your budget message is pretty straightforward for this year. Uh for those of you that were at the improvement commission meeting, uh the last one that we had I want to say was in March it feels like um we spoke about the need to replace the uh pump station on Wana. Um that is the only item that is well it's the only major item that is in your budget for this year uh for urban renewal. Um, so you'll see uh 1.5 million in infrastructure in the greater seaside construction uh item uh fund, excuse me. Uh and that is earmarked for that. So uh the estimate that we got was 1.2 to be uh perfectly transparent about it. And then so there's a little bit in there for contingency in case you know the estimate is just that. It's an estimate. If we can't uh bid the project out for that amount, then the little bit of extra that we put in there um helps us finish that project without needing to pull this this committee back uh into session. If it comes in over that, then this this committee will have to come back into session and decide if that's

um still something that they want to do. So, um trying to think is there anything else on your agenda for the urban journal pretty straightforward from there. Um any questions in terms of the message? Yes, ma'am. Um I mean I sorry I appreciate the uh the need for the Wana pump station. Um, but looking at the urban renewal plan that was adopted and approved from 2017, where is that in that plan and how is that part of that plan? That is in the plan, but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head exactly what date. Hey, but it's one of the projects that was specifically specifically mentioned in there. I want to say it was it's mentioned as the pump station near the hospital or something along those lines. Okay. The the sewer system needs No, that's a generic one. There's a the pump is specifically talked about. Okay. just want to make sure that it's actually in that plan so that you know if we start down this road the county can't turn around and say that wasn't part of what we approved that you move forward with this plan with and thank you any other questions um yes the final paragraph here a major infrastructure project is nearly ready to break ground is that what we're talking about Okay, then I would turn my time over to the chair. Uh, looking for a motion. Oops. That's That's the pump station in question.

Sorry. Oh, sorry. Public comments. as I hear none. Uh discussion on the renewal budget or on the urban renewal budget. Okay, hearing none. Can I call for a motion? One comment. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry missed you. I know that part of this urban renewal area is also Avenue S and improvements on that that were supposed to happen, sidewalks, street improvements. So are we sacrificing those in lie of doing the pump station until that's all completed and we have money built up again? Is that what's happening? Yeah, I would say the improvement commission met a month ago. We reviewed all the eligible projects, the ones that could be completed now and this was the top priority. Okay. So, so that is a project and could be next, could be never really depends on what the improvement commission wants to do. Okay. Thank you. Spec to give a brief u comment about why that pump station needs upgrading because of the school etc. So, this is as you can see on the map here, this is our pump station uh for the souththeast side of the city. pretty much everything from um um what's the street I'm thinking of off of Wana uh no all the way to the north where the loop around that goes no that goes to the south yeah that goes what's the road that goes there short ter shortter all right there we go everything from shortter terrace

south that comes off of Wana and is um uh generally east of the river. All the sewer flows to this low spot and then is pumped on um elsewhere in the city. Um it is um it was identified when this plan was done and I should say uh Commissioner Clelesic you are right. It is in the plan. It's under item number six sewer system needs. It says right there, project upgrading the existing sewer pump station and associated piping. Um below below the hospital campus. Um it is und sized and uh and so at high water events, so big storms and things like that, it overflows both at the pump station, but more likely on Wana, you'll see uh sewer coming out of the manholes onto Wana and into yards and things like that. And so the city's been put on a notice from DEEQ to get that fixed uh ASAP and um the we had hired engineers to evaluate it. They came back with with uh several options. What they recommended was to do some limited upgrades to the motors and whatnot. That would get it running, keep it in good condition, uh get the added horsepower needs, get us probably the next 5 years or so. Um but not to re not to replace the whole lift station or pump station because the one on 12th Avenue is way worse and our money should be spent there. Um that and we have limited funds within the sewer. Um however when I said there this is a project for our uh in our urban renewal district um he said yes by

all means is your money is better spent to replace it than to spend money just to extend it five more years and so um that's where this comes in um as a high priority is we're under an order from DEEQ to get it fixed and we think in the long term it makes more sense to replace it now rather than do a major upgrade and then a replacement in 5 years or so. So, this may be a question for an engineer, but how does one replace that station while not interrupting the service? Is it a secondary station that'll be built and there'll be a swap or how does that work? Um, so they so in fact I'm going to take a tangent since you gave me the floor. Um, we have our new public works director is an engineer and one of the things he's noticed with we have 27 lift stations throughout the city. This is one of our bigger ones, but we have big and small. And none of ours have um bypass capabilities. So, um when they have to do maintenance or when it goes down, they basically have to get their vacuum truck, which is a giant vacuum, and go to the next manhole, wait till it fills up, suck it down, drive it, dispose of it. And so, one of the things he's identified that our crews can do is go into our lift stations and build in bypass features. So in this case um there would be a you would normally have a put in a bypass feature that allows you basically an external pump that pushes it around. Um one of the things that Zach and I have been um looking at is let's look at uh normally you'd rent a pump facility to bypass it. Let's look at what that cost is for this project and then let's take that cost that we would spend on the project and let's go and purchase one for the city using uh that amount from this project and the rest from other funds because we are going to need it on many other uh

many other projects and then we won't have to keep renting. But the the way you do it is you have a bypass valve and you basically pump around it. Long way to stay. I thought it was super interesting. Yeah, it is. So, who's doing it for the city? Now, city, what do you mean by doing it? The the equipment in the equipment to do that. So, this would be a construction project. So, um we would um bid it out. We'd have engineering drawings. U there's a problem and you're sucking it out. Oh, uh that's our sewer staff. I think I see them do it almost every other day. Probably not. But well, there is also that's one use of it. The other thing is just it's also a jetting truck. So it'll go and jet lines which cleans them. So it jets water in and then it sucks it out when it flushes it. So there's many uses for it. Just to clarify, you said we're replacing this instead of upgrading it. Yeah, we're build we're building a new pump rather than doing upgrades uh to extend the life of the current one. Got it. By upgrade, I meant I I figured you were swapping your iPhone 16 for a 17, that kind of upgrade. It's it's kind of uh to to come before a catastrophic failure where you can't do anything. And and I will say the benefit to this is 100% within the um the urban renewal district which is why it's it's a great project. Uh no further questions. Uh can I ask for a motion please for the approval of the budget? So before we do that there's a little bit of a change in the way that we did it last the last couple years. So, the way that uh it's been done since Mark was here uh and up to

the past couple years, you'll see on item seven here, um it says approval of the seaside urban renewal, there's no amount on there, but we need to include an amount in that motion. So, you'll find that number on page four in the bottom right. So, whoever makes the motion, should they desire needs to make the motion to approve the budget for 5,13,4 a little bit of background as we talked about this and this will go into our budget committee meeting for half of you later and that is they've always been published on the agenda in that amount. But that precludes the budget committee from making any changes in the meeting. You'd have to renotice it. So if the budget committee, so in this in this case, say the urban renewal district budget committee wanted to make changes, you could without having to renotice it and come back at a at a new meeting. So that's why we took it off the agenda, but it still needs to be part of the motion. So I will move I I wait I see a confused person. So what what he's saying is if we came here and changed our minds then we would have to change the motion. So they just left it out of the motion until we knew what we were going to be motioning. I didn't I didn't want to get ahead and presume that this body wasn't going to make any changes in essence is what so I move for the approval of the seaside urban re I move for the approval of the seaside urban renewal agency budget for the fiscal year 2026 in the amount of 5,13,489 second all in favor. All opposed.

Thank you. The next one is second motion. Second motion on here um that approves the idea of the um the w the taxing ability of the city to be able to capture those funds. Is this is this the same as the adalorum statements that we've had to do in the past? It's not the exact same, but it's okay. All right. I move that we approve the urban renewal budget committee to request the SE southeast seaside urban renewal district select part 4 other reduced rate plans and request for 100% from division of tax referenced in OS457.445 parentheses one. I'll second. All in favor? I all opposed. Okay, with that I adjourn this meeting at 3:18 and 59 seconds. Thank you. The next improvement commission meeting is going to be at the work session for the uh June 9th city council meeting. Um that is only that is that is not the urban renewal budget committee but it's the urban wait the improvement commission meeting so it pertains to most of you but not all of you urban renewal is not the same as the improvement commission is the govern governing body for the urban renewal plans but when you meet as a budget committee you're not the improvement commission budget committee you're the urban renewal committee, right? Theoretically, there could be multiple urban renewal districts within the city. Like Portland will will have several with different bodies that apply to

each. I get to pass this off. I think we're done. We're done. Thank you all.

All righty. Once a year. Let's call this meeting to order. Yes. Yes. Has everybody had a chance to look at the minutes from our last meeting? Are there any changes that need to be made? Can I touch on one thing? Yes. Sorry. On your minutes, the ones that were sent out electronically, uh, item a, the third bullet and the fourth bullet and the fifth bullet had the wrong year. So, the ones that are printed here reflect the correct year. The agenda. That's the I'm sorry. On the agenda. Oh, agenda. move to approve the minutes. Second. Okay. So, we've got a motion and a second. Uh, right. And sorry, MUN. Okay. Uh, all those in favor? I. Any opposed? Hearing none, the minutes are approved. So, now we're going to call the seaside budget uh open for public comments. Any comments? [Music] Hearing none, we'll close that. Very good. So, now we'll open up the Seaside Road District budget open for public comments. Any comments? Hearing none, we'll close that as well. Question. Take it off. Uh, state of Oregon revenue sharing program. We'll open that for public comment. Any comments? Hearing none, we'll close that as well. Let's go on to the budget request vetting process and I'll turn

that over to Spencer. Thank you. So, um, let me give a little overview of what we hope to do today. So, we wanted to talk about our our vetting process. There were some questions that came in over the the week that we sent out. We thought we it was appropriate um for the purpose of the meeting today. Um obviously the main purpose is for you to have discussion and deliberation. What we have also included in here, these are all the motions that the budget committee will need to complete before you can adjourn. We believe that many of these in fact I would say all but the last one we can do today. Um and then the last one is really up to the budget committee to do when the budget committee is ready to um approve their recommendation to the city council. And so, um, if we're going to have, uh, additional meetings, um, it would be nice to have all the other, uh, motions already done and we just have one left to do. And so, we put that on here that they can really be, um, we said they're optional because we we're not trying to say you have to adopt them today, but, we think it makes sense for those that are very straightforward to um, kind of get them out of the way. So that may be something you want to consider is first do those and then spend most of the time um discussing and deliberating on the last item which is the seaside budget. Um so we want to talk a little bit about the vetting process that we that we go through. Um and um so first of all we have a budget request form we send out to each department when they are submitting their request for the year.

On that document they have to be able to check one of these um boxes. So it the request needs to um be demonstrated by exceptional need. It generates new revenue. It's a federal or state mandate. it's tied to a council goal uh or some other contractual obligation. So, that's just that's just to help our departments. I want them thinking about these kinds of things when they're putting their budget request together. And if they can't answer those, that should tell them something right away. Um and then they uh can pursue other things. Um once all their budgets are in and and Zach kind of compiles them all, um Zach and I will meet with each department head and and we go through our own vetting process. Um we don't have a a formal set of criteria that we go through, but these are the general things. What we're really trying to determine, we're really trying to, you know, have they really thought everything? And so, um, the first question we always ask is, can this be absorbed into your current budget? So, don't come to us with a request for $5,000 when you traditionally have $20,000 left at the end of the year. You you can find it in your existing budget. Um, we say, "How much thought has been put into this request?" That's one of our kind of tests. Have they just thrown this out here of, "Oh, I'd like to do this. I'd like to get that compared to here's all the backup data. This is we can really show what what we are trying to do. Um how would the request solve the challenge that they are that they're trying to solve. Um so don't come to us with these are all of our concerns and issues we're struggling with and here's all our budget requests and they have

nothing to do with each other. Um they should be tied to each other. Um, what are the alternatives? Are you buying the Cadillac or the Um, what's a good opposite of a Cadillac? A Yugo. Um, you know, we're Yeah, we're more of a Honda Accord here. No. Um Um, but I want to know what the alternatives are. Um, and that can include um instead of hiring someone, have we looked at contracting out? I mean, what are all have we vetted everything and why is it you're recommending this one over other options? Um, are there grants available for this request? Because oftentimes we'll say, um, especially if it's a one-time purchase. Um, we're going to recommend approval, but so long as you're able to obtain a grant, because it's easy to say there's lots of grants available, but once it's in the budget, they just go and spend it. We want them to hey you got to go do the rest of the work. Uh and then we ask them all what is the priority of this request among all the requests that you've submitted. Um and realistically we don't have long lists from any one department. But if they have multiple requests and let's say I mean I always tell them we're not going to be able to fund everything. So uh if we had enough funding for one of your requests what is it? And again that just in our or our our minds my mind helps to really understand the importance uh of them from from their point of view. So that's the process we go through. Um, and the reason I I share that beyond interest for you so you understand the process is I think these are great questions for the budget committee to be considering is if if the budget committee members

are bringing forward uh proposals of their own um or as you're evaluating the budget requests that we've recommended or that we've not recommended um we can be having discussions around these questions. I think this helps uh the vetting process. The department head should be doing a vetting process with their staff. We do one u the budget committee is another vetting process and then ultimately the city council is a vetting process. And these are the kinds of questions. There's many other questions that could be asked, but I just wanted to get us thinking about that. So with that said, uh I'm going to turn it back to our chair. We have a discussion on the slide. Um here are the different motions. And so our recommendation would be to take care of some of these motions and then spend most of the time on discussion on whatever topics the budget committee wants to um to do. Um u but that's your choice and your discretion. And obviously not just discussion um we're also here to answer questions. So we received quite a few questions but I anticipate there's more questions as well. So I will turn it back to our chair. So now we'll enter into discussion and deliberation. Ta. Yeah. I just have a question about the vetting process that that um you brought up maybe. Yeah, that's great. Um is it only uh department heads or budget committee that can do budget requests? Um, could a city counselor put in a budget request and um given I'm I'm looking at the future like next year and maybe during a goal setting process or prior to the the budget committee meeting, that kind of

thing. I think we can do whatever I would say the council wants. This is maybe more of a council discuss decision. Um, uh, you kind of put me on the spot, but as I'm thinking about it, we definitely want a process for counselors to bring forward things that are important to you all. Um, at the same time, I personally don't want to be in a position where I'm recommending or not recommending a particular counselor's request. And so I think the purpose here um for example today is would be for people to bring it forward. If that if the council wanted to do some part of that earlier in the process, it could be done. Um and the other thing I want to stress um is we um we're putting forth a recommended budget. Um but any of those things can be removed if there are other things. the budget committee would like to recommend. In fact, um I would say John, are you able to pull up the Excel spreadsheet that was dropped in there? And then can you bring me a a mouse? Uh yep. All right. So, um, so this these are all the budget requests and what was included, what was included, if it's one time or ongoing. And I've I've added where I can throw in a whole bunch of rows here. We can add them in here. We can check or uncheck boxes and see how it what kind of an effect it has. So, this is our general fund. Here are the other funds. And this is the the summary. they really need to be looked at as individual funds.

There's a summary for that if we wanted to. These are the new capital projects um we uh we discussed and brought to you last week. Um generally this is typically where most of the discussion is, but it doesn't have to be. And so um this would be an opportunity to uh to check the boxes that the budget committee um wants to do. And so that would be part of any other requests and things like that. Can I follow up on that? And I wonder if the direction TA is going is we do a goal setting for two years, which we haven't seen the final document on that. But yet out of that should be how we're deciding what we're going to be budgeting moving forward for projects and things we want to work on. So, we don't know if the things that we're looking at adding to the budget are based on the priorities of the council. Yes. So, there should be something in there where we're able to say, "This is where we want to concentrate some funding moving forward." I'd actually like to see those check boxes that you asked the department heads to fill out on each one of these so we could see council sliding doors. Was that city council. Was that a city council goal? Was that is that mandatory? Is that I could probably tell you it's almost always going to be demonstrated need. The other ones are are a little more rare. Um going back to what you said, David. Yes. And we're behind in getting that to you. Um but like the one last time, and I've seen the draft of the one this time, there aren't specific things to be budgeted for or purchased. it's more work to get done as a council or as

staff. Um, off the top of my head, as I look at, uh, the one from two years ago, um, there wasn't a budget. Now, the decisions coming out of those once the work was done could lead to a budget impact, but the actual goals were more like make a decision on this or study this or understand this to be able to make a decision. And then that's the point where we can be budgeting. One that stands out for me is like the watershed property that we were working on. Yeah. That's something that would have to be budgeted for based on availability. But uh as if I go back to the presentation last time, it is budgeted for. So, uh, because if that's my question, moving forward into the ne this this next budget we're approving, have we looked at those and said, "Okay, the staff's believes these are the things that Yeah, I'll I think one that was on my list that isn't in the budget is what we're going to do with the church and the admin building." Yeah. Um, and Tina and I talked about that earlier today. Um, the the status. So, that was one on the the previous goals and we've got as far as we can at this point. It's just uh the council needs to make a decision and um we still have the so on that one particular we still have the estimates of what it will take to basically they need to be demolished. We have the estimates. So, at some point we just need to pull the trigger on that. So if if the in the budget and if they're not in the budget and we decide that we won't do it then we have to come back come back and that was one thing where um coming in this morning I was like that was one thing we didn't include and so that is something that we could include and as a one-time expense we just budgeted out of basically out of our savings and then

again the council has the opportunity to make a decision but isn't isn't is isn't isn't uh bound by it, but I'll pull it up. But you're you're right, David. I think one should inform the other. And some of this it would be better to look at uh the timing of how we're doing things and making sure um they're lining up appropriately and we're not doing one too early or too late. We met in January. We're now three months later and we don't have that document. Yeah, I tend to agree. We hired an organization to do that for us. They've not I I'll be honest, they've given us a draft and the mayor and John and I got threequarters of the way through it and I said take care of the rest and um they have a whole bunch of other things going on and so it's waiting for me to get free time to finish it up and get it back to them. But I tend to agree with both David and T on this in the obviously not next year but the next two-year cycle it would be good to have those goals prior to even starting the budget committee. Even if they're not all budget related, at least we would know what our objectives are. And even if they're in draft form, yeah, that's good enough. So, while you guys are discussing, I'll pull up the draft and go through it and and I can tell you what the ones that would have a budget effect are. Great. That's not my mouse. So, I guess I would like to see us add that onto this list because we we need to uh earmark that money even if we don't. So, it sounds like most of these aren't affected by that that we could go through get get done and then when we get to the actual budget discussion, he should have those nailed down. Um, sure. I need the keyboard, too. Do we have any idea what the cost of the watershed purchase property purchase is and the church property project? I think the wershed is in here. Yeah, the waterershed was uh in the budget last year. We didn't get the

grant and so we've rolled it forward and it's still there. We'll do the same request this year. Well, what comes to top of mind to me is the parks. And I can't recall if we got that into our goals, but we got the north 40 and we got the estuary park which are clearly going to need to be budgeted for. And that's that's on the capital projects that we talked about last time. Uh we got the park studies. That's where we think we would get to this next year is this would be getting uh landscape designs and everything for um well the when we have some existing for the north north 40 but it'd be north 40 quadat and estuary park. Okay. For $50,000 for the conceptual drawings. Yeah. The north 40 the last one we got four designs out of. I think we spent 12,000 or something like that. Spencer, I thought I recalled you did not recommend the backup generator at the EOC, but I do see the included check box there. [Music] Which line? Oh, there. Oh, I was that was in putting that together. I think that was Oh, shoot. We can we can check it and uncheck it. Discussion topic. Um, I that's really important. I think I'm um I I don't know if the answer is a less expensive model, if it's a let's trade models around the city scenario, but I think if we're going to call it an EOC, it sure better have backup power or else to me it's not an EOC. And we could consider maybe the EOC is at a different location where we already have backup power, but it's all out of the zone. It's all designed for that. Like I just I How about we get started on the top of the list and go down? Let's I I think we should personally I

think we should go through the other motions, get those off the table and then we can get go through the budget and the things we want to talk about about the budget itself. And so do you have the um wording for these different motions at the bottom? What the numbers of the budget are? Yeah. Okay. Yes. So, um I'm going to give you some numbers. Does it only the numbers they're missing? Changes. Yeah. The road district. Right. Right. That we haven't heard that we're going to accept the property taxes. The road district is the main one that you're going to want to number. Yeah. But it was already stated. It's not a variable. Okay. It's the wrong spreadsheet. So, we're basically looking at doing those first four state revenue, the road district, and the two adors. So the number for the road district is I'm sorry it's 3 million 122,727 assuming assuming that you don't choose to change. We don't choose to modify it. Do we need to? So, I'd like to make a motion that we approve the state revenue sharing of an estimated $358,140. Yeah. Some going to go a different direction. Oh, okay. Normally, I have somebody else do the motion rather than the chair do. You can

ask for the How about we just start at the first motion and somebody pick it and make a motion and we'll do it that way. I move that we approve the state revenue sharing of an estimated $358,140. I'll second that. Okay. Then we can discuss. Yeah. Any discussion on that? And that's revenue to us in our budget. Things like um liquor tax, right? Marijuana tax lives in more than I don't know if it still does or not because the state although aren't they also going to increase the liquid taxes? We'll see. That's accounted for in a different place. So, all those in favor? I opposed. Next one. I move to approve the road district budget in the amount of in the amount of 3,122,747. I'll second. What page is that um in our budget? It would be at the end of the document. Any discussion right number one? How come down?

That was the number that Zach told us. So, we need to verify that. Thank you. Sorry. I see the resources and the proposed budget at 1,772727. That's right. If you add [Music] um it should be well let me tell you it's actually the book first. It might be in the other on another page. It looks like it is page 141, the last four numbers in the right column. If you add What's the ending fund balance? Oh, no, it's not going to add up. That's just a breakdown of the tom. It's that in capital, isn't it? It's not enough. It doesn't anywhere. I withdraw my motion. One more time. More eyes. Again, that he was in your Oh, it's right here. It's right22727. It's right here. That's three.

[Music] It's the capital. It's the capital total and capital. Okay. Add those together and see if they come. [Music] If you subtract the one from that, you get that. What page are you guys on? It's in Excel spreadsheets there. The 1350. Okay. And then capital. Forgot my hard number. where it's coming, but we don't see that number reflected anywhere on these two pages. And if I don't see the number, I'm not going to approve it. Reflected anywhere on what two pages? The road budget. 140 is the resources. 141 is the requirements. Correct. And nowhere on those two pages do I see 3 million1227 added together. So we can add it ourselves. But it's I don't know what you're saying. I guess the question is should the total include materials and services capital and non-EP departmental. But normally those lines that are underneath are what are in the total. Yes. They're just pulling it out. Okay. Apologies everyone. My other sheet that I was pulling that number off is wrong. There's a formula error. So maybe we can Can we come back to that one? Come back. Okay. Okay. That one. Go to the next one. Um, I will move for the approval of property taxes for the 2025 2026 fiscal year for the Seaside Road District at the rate

of306 per $1,000 of assessed value for the permanent rate tax levy. I'll second. And we got a first and a second. Any discussion? [Music] All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion passes. And that's for the fiscal year 2526, right? I think I I think I see now why we had the numbers on the agenda, but uh I still we can do it differently. I still glad it's not on the agenda in case it wants to change but so and the ad valorum is not going to change I mean we know our tax rate is that's dictated so so the sheet that I was using was capturing the cont the capital and the contingency number so your your number your updated number sorry is uh 1,772 727 and it is the sum of the total expenses. So it's it's 1.527 962 plus 244 765. So it's your ending fund balance plus expenses and that equals the resources. Correct. Total resources. Correct. Yeah, that's that's my check. There's no ending fund balance. Oh, I see. You're saying that's the ending fund balance. Yes, right. So, so the equation is beginning fund balance plus revenues needs to equal expenses plus ending fund balance. So, that's the check for me to make sure that it's correct.

You want to remake your Sure. Let's go back. Uh, I move that we approve the road district budget in the amount of 1.772727. I'll second that. We've got a first and a second. Any discussion on that? Everybody know where the number came from? Okay. All those in favor say I. I. I. Opposed. Motion passes. And who wants to take the last one? Well, I like doing ad loans. Uh, I move the approval of the property taxes for the 25 2025 2026 fiscal year at the rate of $3.1696 per $1,000 of assessed value for the permanent rate tax levy. I'll second it. Nobody else wants to. Right. Okay. We got a first and a second. Any uh discussion about that? Hearing none. All those in favor say I. I. Opposed. Hearing none. Motion carries. Okay. Now we can talk about the budget. You want to talk about the budget now? Now on the budget number eight. So at what point is that is now the point when we talk about this stuff? So can I can I put a a quick disclaimer out there before before we do that? So, with the changeover of finance systems this year, um if for those of you that have been on the budget

committee for the last couple years, you'll remember that you got a new version of the budget book before every one of these meetings. And that was because I was updating expenses as the the course of this process played out because my thinking was the more accurate the estimated number, the more accurate number that you guys would have to to look at um and make decisions on. This year that has changed a little bit. Um and by changed a little bit, the process has um half of that process was was cut up a little bit because we h we lost uh we stopped putting revenue and expenses into our old system uh at the end of January. And this model that I'm using is based on old the the GL numbers out of the old system. So, the point I'm getting to here is that in in years prior, I used to have a basically a a two-pronged check for estimates for the current fiscal year where one would be um you know would be um call it expenses through March. So, you're nine months through the through the year. you divide uh divide that total year-to- date number by nine and you multiply it by 12. That'll give you a straight line number over the course of the year. The other model that I that I had compensated for the timing of spending uh on average over the course of the last like five years. And between the two of those, I felt like it gave us a um a more accurate number to make decisions on. This year I couldn't do that because all of the GL numbers are new. I So everything in this model is a

straight line estimate. I've I've done my best to go through and uh try to capture the places where uh for example our our wildfire expenses 95% of those will be spent through August or September. And so if you do the straight line estimate in January, it's going to look like your wildfire expenses are going to be 250% of what they really are because you're taking a large number that happened at the beginning of the year and you're pushing it forward through the rest of the year. The opposite is true when you get say [Music] um something that happens predominantly at the end of the fiscal year, right? you're going to underount what that looks like because at the beginning of the year you would have you would have spent less or taken in less or what have you. Um convention food expenses, right? Food expenses is a big one and it's the one that catches me every year because I don't um I don't have a good grasp on the the groups that come in at the end of the year and what they're going to spend in food. I so I try to take my best guess. Um, so, um, I know there was a there was a question on what some of the estimates were and, uh, there's there are things to look up to double check this, I don't know that we'll be able to recommend a final budget tonight. Uh, as much as I would like to, um, there's there's a couple numbers that I would like to double check against, uh, against the models to make sure. Um, so with that, let me turn the turn the floor back over to you all. So I have a question on that. Not so much about the budget right this minute, but as we look forward, so our new system is it going to contain all of the data

we need for the current fiscal year? Yes. So it does go back at least to July 1st, 2024. Yes. every one of the the GL line items that were in the old system in January were moved over to the new system, but every one of the GL line numbers that identify that changed. And so that's that's the disconnect, right? So the the old the the model that we use uses a pretty long formula to because all of the GL line items are unique. So I can look I can pull a an expense report for the course of the year and point the model to find that. And so that's that's the premise of the of the model as it's built. I couldn't build in the new the new um GL line number line items quickly enough to get that done for this year. So theoretically something that was A in the old system could under the GL number A could be under the GL number Z. Yeah, they're not usually that drastic, but but they do that. Yeah, every one of them do change. So there wasn't an effective mapping after right into the new there is it's it's creating the new formulas to get to that is the trick. And do you want to make them do that for a onetime use? Right. Right. It's not a deficient use of time. Right. And so one of the things you said has been used in the past to come up with a a calculation for the future is to look at that fiveyear experience. Um in order to do that in the future, you'll need to somehow keep the numbers from the old system. How many how many

years are we importing over? We're doing one, but for the for the um I think I did you could I couldn't do all of those because some of them just don't make sense, right? They're one-time items or they're so insignificant that like it it would almost be a waste of time to do. But I did everything down to I want to say it was like $75,000 in annual revenue because the other ones you can estimate, right? Um so though, so I want to say that is about 30 or 40 different revenue codes. So, so that process is a lot it would will be a lot easier uh than moving every revenue code that we have cuz most of them honestly we haven't we haven't received any revenue for years, right? And so um but in addition to that of the data within the system, it's it's very expensive each additional year you want to migrate. And so, um, we've we I think we went with the with their recommendation on what we should do. And we will still we still have access to the old system. So, I can still pull those reports. I have all those reports. Uh, it's just making sure that A connects to B and having enough time to do that and test it. Um, let me just update the committee on two things I've done during this other discussion. Thanks for giving me a little break there. Um, here are these two items. So, if the budget committee wishes to put these in there, again, this isn't making the decision necessarily to do it, but would be setting aside the funds in case you want to do it. It would be um in the budget.

Um, then the other thing I added here, this is very uh too early. Okay, John, where is my zoom button on here? You can uh hit you've changed the view. So, you did [Music] So, these are these are uh not ready for prime time, but this was some some drafts. First, I'm going to read it off of my screen. So, we go through and so I've highlighted the ones that have an obvious immediate uh fiscal impact. So, create and implement a resident communication strategy, examine and I think it Yeah. and update ordinance and policies for boards and commissions. Finalize and adopt a comprehensive plan. Develop a plan to build vertical evacuation structures. Complete sewer master plan and adopt a sewer capital facilities plan to fix sewer and water treatment problems. Develop parking strategy plan with Worldmark. Expand acquisitions of watershed land. Enhance transportation safety infrastructure. Implement the pavement plan. uh expand affordable housing initiatives through targeted subsidy programs, support the Pacifica project, develop and implement a comprehensive workforce housing strategy for Seaside's essential workers, complete homeless camp redevelopment and policy, create and implement a comprehensive parks capital improvements plan. Uh I think that one actually ties into the next one, which

is where the cost is. Advance uh North 40 recreational development through phased implementation and community engagement. Optimize tourism tax revenue allocation to balance visitor services with community benefits. Develop strategic framework for tourism tax investment that prioritize community resilience and um resident benefits. There's still a lot of refining of that that I need to do back with them because some of the things there and there's there's more to it. this I this is pertinent for our discussion and then obviously the council still needs to do some work on it but so of these ones that have the immediate uh fiscal impact um each one of these is currently budgeted for this one sewer master plan is a rollover from the current budget that we're in so is the acquisition of wershed pavement plan is new in the capital projects we discussed that last week homeless camp uh kind of completed. Um it's not in the current budget. It will be in the current budget when the budget committee and city council approve it in June. There's $100,000 in there for homelessness. Yeah. Uh this Yeah, this is specifically to basically open the new camp. Uh and then the last one was the North 40, which we talked a little bit earlier. So that's kind of where we are. And I appreciate the council bringing this up because this absolutely should be a driver of um the budget process. Number four, I would assume just in our previous discussions that we don't know what we don't know and that we're going to need some uh guidance from an outside and I don't even know how much that guidance is or what that is yet. But there is tech you need technical assistance to start off with and um I guess I would say so on on

something like that. I don't know if that's $15,000 or a million dollars. Um there is still some work that needs to be done. Um you know uh is it something that we need a placeholder in the budget for? We could. It's just I don't I wouldn't even know where to start with with the placeholder. So, I mean, for something that significant, I think I would come back and I think we shouldn't be adverse to opening up the budget mid year when we have better information. We've already talked. Yeah. I mean, my thoughts are the first thing we need to do is do an evaluation of the existing structures in Seaside about their capabilities and stuff like that. But well, what I what I took away from our meeting is number one, the worldmark needs to be evaluated, whether that fits our needs. And then number two, if we do decide to do it in the parking lot, we need to do soil testing even as a first step to know if it's even feasible. And then we could do a design. I thought we went back and did that soil testing. Did some of that. I know. I thought they had some people come out. I don't think Dami did. I've heard rumors. We're still giving us a report. What's happened to the report they promised us? Dami, it's done. I think we sent it out. Okay, that's true. Anyway, we can come back to that. That is the list. I find interesting is that what I thought was up there isn't up there and that's the um the church and the Oh, so that is um he added to the other page, but it's not in our goals. And I thought it was in our It was in our goals last time. Okay. And well, I thought we brought it forward. No, we're not. This is a new set of goals and pretty much there's not much to do except for the council just

needs to vote and say yay or nay. And I don't think the council wanted to kind of waste a goal on just you just got to make the decision, right? Anyway, so um Spencer, would it be appropriate to put some budget for the tsunami evacu evacuation structure for maybe like the soil testing or anything like that? Yeah, if we wanted to. I mean, off the top of my head, if we wanted to to put $20,000 in there or something like that as a placeholder so we don't have to come back for something that small, we could do that. Um, again, I just don't know. I think I'd rather see like maybe 50,000. And again, this isn't authorization. I would say this is an operation to spend it. This is to set it aside to avoid some administrative hassle to do some initial work. I recently did this for 12,000 as a reference. It' probably be a little bit more, but it's not super expensive. I keep trying to get the wrong keyboard. There we go. So, you think 20 is okay? Like so. All right. No, it's not that. So, can we bounce back? Ves, we say um uh development. I'll just put that for now. Yeah. strategy. Don't hold me to 20,000. And these kinds of things can't come out of contingency. They could, but we also may want to sort of keep contingency for the unknown contingency. I think it's better to have

something if we are anticipating it. So there was some discussion. Oh, we're we're adding stuff or are we starting at the top? I'm trying to remember now that up to the committee top right there. Oh, sorry. Question. I didn't hear. How are we going to go through this list? How are we going to go through this list? Let's start at the top, but we'll do the dark blue ones first. You might want to [Music] add you might want to add another column next to included that says uh budget committee so you can see whether we checked off as well. I don't know. I'm just saying we just change whether it's a check mark or not. Approved or not approved. We already know what he said for. So, okay. And report. So, you'll see you'll see up here the I can't remember who said this. That's what we believe today would be available new funds and um that obviously we could and will change before June. So, there could be some changes. This is basically the sum of everything that's been checked and we're a little bit over right now. And then I will say this is how much we're committing to spend on one time and this is a lot and maybe it hasn't been said this this this meeting. you really don't ever want to rely on say well I'm always more careful on the ongoing because that's a lot more difficult to change in the future and you'd never want to def spend for that and so there's probably some few things we could do to get this back into the positive um this I'm always cautious so this if we were to adopt this budget we'd say we're adopting a deficit budget

but I would say from an operation standpoint point. We are um breaking even uh with our new revenue on our ongoing uh expenses and we are choosing to dip into our savings for these items right here and in the future next year we don't have to do anything and um it is a significant amount um and the only reason I think we need to do it is for many things that we're talking about they're just has just been underinvestment in the city. And and we kind of need a to get back to a a better baseline for um our employees to be able to to do the work with the equipment that they need to, which is reflected in the fact that we have surpluses. Correct. Yes. What's the total amount in the savings right now citywide? Well, I I didn't necessarily want to bring that because I didn't want to get too spend crazy. Big number. Let's just say it's sufficient. Do you want Do you want the answer? Number um this is projected ending fund balances in the budget. Yeah, it is in there. We'll make you go find it. They are substantial except in water and sewer. Do you find it if we're going to start it? Um, but it's it's about it. I mean, it's about it's about Oh, you got it. I was going to say it's 40 million plus or minus a few depending on when you when you take Wait for the general fund. We're all done. Just general fund. I thought it was like nine. Yeah, it's nine.

But you always want to have your reserves, right? Definitely, especially given today's environment. What would be an an adequate cash balance given the size of the city in your opinion, Spencer? Well, if you're talking cash for cash flow, that's not really an issue for cities because we have so much in savings and uh also in restricted funds that we can only use for certain purposes like TLT that in terms of cash flow like a business, it's almost never an issue. Even if we only get our property taxes in November, December, we're not really need to cash flow the first few months. Now, um reserves for a rainy day. Um there are some be well the best practice is to have a plan for what you have. I mean, it's not good to just have a giant balance because you could look at it the way of a a resident pays $1,000, let's say, in taxes. They should in general get $1,000 of services. It shouldn't be that they get $500 of services and the city kind of hoards $500 and 30, 50 years from now some future taxpayer gets the benefit of that. So there's but then we also want to be careful and frugal for the just in case scenarios. And so finding the right balance is good. I think the amount we have for the general fund brings me a lot of comfort. I think it's higher than it needs to be. But I also don't want to just go spend it all because um uh I think there would it would be better to have a strategic discussion on where what number we want to get to. Um when it get correct um I think the other thing I would say like but as an

example uh in my where I previously worked um it the goal would be 25% of your operating budget for the year. So that gets us about where we are. Um, but on top of that, we would exclude from that, well, I guess I say when it we first started it, um, the state law said it couldn't be more than um, like 10 or 12%. Which wasn't much. And so, actually, my mayor pushed our legislature to increase it to allow us to save more. So, it got up to about 25%. Um, but that excluded if we were saving up for a particular project. So, um, this is high. I think I' I'd want to do some more research for for having no purpose. If we were planning on committing 5 million towards something, then I would kind of take that out of the equation, just say. So, um I don't I think that's something Zach and I could work on and come back with. I'm sure the government finance officers association has a recommended um res uh I would call it un u undesated reserve or un they do they basically say I think around 15% or two months of your 15% of your operating rate and that's close to what I used to be with the 12%. So yeah, you just have right there. I've done this. Yeah. Well, that's great to hear. Thank you. So, my understanding is that the one time expenses have already been budgeted in this budget. Um, I have recommended all of them. Well, nearly all of them. And and with the reason being there were a few that I'm wasn't quite ready uh to

pull the trigger on and then I thought, you know, anyways, I there were some last minute additions. They weren't all there or last minute I I checked the box. Um but yes, generally speaking, these are all things that are just needed and will make the the services provided by the by the by the city better. So the only the only ones we need to discuss are the ones that the boxes are not checked. Is that unless you want to uncheck a box or you might want you might want to uncheck a box if you want. I would say I think the ongoing is is the the trickier issue. So if there are requests to add projects or service levels that have an ongoing cost, that's really the trickier discussion of we need to unfund something else in order to fund this. Otherwise, we are committing to ongoing costs for something and we do not yet have the revenue for it. So we're spending future revenue increases, which I wouldn't recommend. Why in the world is the tsunami siren maintenance not checked? Um, so there's a broader discussion we should have with the city council. Um, the system is I can't remember were you at at the last meeting or did you Okay, I briefly talked about it, but um it's um I think it was put in maybe 15 years ago and for about $125,000. It probably all needs to be replaced. We had to redo one of the sirens this year and the amount you see in here was about the amount to do redo one of them. And so the request from our emergency manager was to have a budget to refurbish one each year. Um but we but now through our emergency management

through our PIO we have the capability to push out basically like an Amber alert. So we can go into the software, draw a geographical map of the city and push out a message that hits every single cell phone in that area. Uh we have that today and my personal opinion is that is going to be a much more effective a much faster um uh way to notify people um and to get the word out than the siren system. that the siren system is an older an older uh technology. It could be done in addition to but I think it's personally I think it's more of a comfort thing than an actual effective thing in the event of a tsunami. The other thing is the tsunami the only tsunami this is working with are the far away ones where we have 4 hours notice. So again, the urgency and you know, if we need to rebuild it, if it was 125,000 15 years ago, I don't know what it would be today. And I just think the money is better spent elsewhere. But that's a I will say that is a discussion for the council to have at a future time. Canon Beach just went through an exercise like that. it wasn't handled from a public standpoint very well and so there was a lot of push back and it caused a lot of problems. If we were to make a decision to no longer um support it, it would be here we have something better now, not we're just doing away from something you've always relied on. I'm of the belief I think we should fund it this year while we have those discussions and then we can say that's totally reasonable and I would I would agree with that. I would say it would be uh uh siren maintenance uh or transitioning to a new system which is going to cost something no matter what. Well, I would say the the

digital system that I think is recommended we have we do it. We already have it. Well, we may already have it, but then I start thinking about all of our hotels, uh, restaurants, vacation rentals that may need to have a another kind of um, uh, notification as well so that they can put their processes into place. Um, you know, I would want to to see maybe a hotel has their own I'm I'm going to say siren kind of thing that by virtue of us rolling something out that siren we do weather radios in the vacation rentals that require it, but we don't do that in hotels, right? There's a whole discussion there. We we can check that. My my only thing is um before we went out and spent what are we talking6 $6,100 $6,100 I'd say let's let's have that discussion as a council let's have that discussion first before we spend that but we can have it just in case I mean that's fine asking our citizens and our businesses etc what do they need as well I think we have we need we need to come up with a plan that we can present as opposed to just saying do you want this or not Because right now what they get is uh a thing that's really difficult to understand even what it's saying. It's more in my opinion it's more about there is a siren going something's happening you know but that's why I was surprised to hear you say we had 27 sirens because I hear so many people we have like we have 14 volume for the test that run like 40% or something. I don't know what the percentage is, but it is what we saw. And it's and it's a different sound for an actual alert than for the test. But again, anyway, we can have that as a council. It's we can have that

discussion. So, we keep that 6100 there. So, it seems to me that we're keep that we keep all of the check boxes. Our only question really is, do we want to have a balanced budget or a deficit budget of the 20,000? Do we want to remove ongoing costs to balance that? Well, the the other thing the other thing we could do with the tsunami, it sounds like what you're really saying is that should be a one time. Yeah. Oops. Oh, there's some stuff in the background there that moving here. But we know that it's like $14,000. Yeah. What you also said about that 6,100 that was specifically for one siren. Well, we don't know. Yeah. The I I didn't I didn't do too much vetting because I was like, I'm not I'm not there on this project. So, um uh they all need extensive work done. They're all over. Yeah. And it's rough weather conditions out there. So maybe this doesn't say tsunami siren maintenance, but tsunami siren system of development or what and I think it's fine. You can we can Yeah. Oh, wait. I messed up something over here. So, I'm gonna So, we have to have another workshop. I have a couple of things up there that I have questions about. Go ahead. Uh, first one, let's look at that tsunami

barrel cash restocking. Are we going in order? Yeah. What happened to the top? She's the chair lady. Well, I was hoping I was hoping it was going to be a little bit easier. Okay. So, is any questions on the city council sliding doors or the council sliding doors and that expenditure that's included in the budget? It already has workers comp issues. Okay. The repair and replacement of the main doors, renovation of the administrative area in the city hall. I'm going to it's not recommended. And actually, if you if you go take a peek, there's there's some minor things already happening that's looking pretty nice. Let's see what they do. The HVAC upgrade for the library. I wanted to mention, can I mention one thing? The uh last meeting you said the somebody said the library was only 10 years old. This actually was built 2008. 17 years old. But that's not the cost for the No, this is this is the cost to have someone come in study. The the original estimate was like a million dollars or something like that. Yeah, that should but uh this is just a it doesn't need to be done now. It will need to be done sometime soon. So this the request was let's understand what's needed. the reclassification of the 30 hour library assistant. I I still support that. Um yes, it's it's 10 more hours. Uh but it's it's basically putting in a full-time youth library assistant. We have a youth librarian who spends much of her time out of the library and working with um our other entities and

our other partners. Um so it's it's kind of like you have to bite the bullet if you really want to have adequate staffing. And so um I really uh endorse this. I'd like to add on to that um that I feel like we're giving a message of reinforcement of value of work and value of employees to other employees that are listed in in their requests in their departments. And this is a very valuable employee as well that without the extra 10 hours might mean that you lose her because she has to find someplace else to work that she can earn a sustainable living wage at. And that is return on investment. they um that they uh so I feel like it's really giving a backwards message to the library and the library staff as to their value when you're saying to the other staff your value is being reinforced by we're going to show you all of in these ways by updating your equipment and by showing you that we recognize you have been underfunded and the library we're going to just continue to underfund and I think that that is a resource source that is extremely valuable to the city and is only going to get more valuable over the years. And so I feel like that's worth the investment. And I I'll just say I don't disagree with any of that. Um but especially with the ongoing expense of an employee, it would be um what what do we want to cut to to to offer this? Again, it's a what's that? Buy one less vehicle a year. No, that's a one-time expense. We want the ongoing to be paying for itself. So, it's got to come it's got to come. If you're buying X amount of vehicles a year, you're buying one less a year, but we're not on we're not on a system like that right now. You said that that's what you were doing on some

of the other vehicles. Yeah. For the police. The police could well, if the police skipped a year, that that frees up the money for one year, but not ongoing. But from in the presentation, I also remember you saying that the other vehicles were getting on that same kind of a schedule. We we'd like to get there. Yes. Okay. But we're they're all just old vehicles right now. I also have to wonder I'm going to I'm going to question the math here. Have you subtracted out the cost of the 30 hours from this? This is 10 additional hours plus benefits. Okay. that and I admit that is the difficult thing. I think we all want this and we all need it. It's a that's that's the dilemma here is it's a lot of money for the 10 extra hours. The 10 extra hours would be fantastic. Would be a great would be a great investment. I agree with all of that. It's just it's just looking at at the other uh ongoing expenses. And this is a position that has historically had high turnover because it is a part-time position. It had high turnover because it was two positions. It was a 20our a week [Music] pos 20-hour a week position. It was a 10-hour a week position. We had someone who was sticking around for the 20 hours a week. We combined them. So she was doing 30 hours a week. Um uh and the request is to bring it to 40 and um you know that's just where the budget committee and council needs to decide. Alternative it would be to hire another person at 30 hours a week for the same amount of money. That's the way I look at this. I I look at it a little differently. You know a city our job is not to have employ people. Our job is to deliver services

at the cheapest possible price. And so to me that's that's how I feel. And so to me, I would rather hire two part-time people, save a ton of money, and have the same result at the end of the day. You're saying that people are not worth getting the benefits. I'm not I'm not saying that at all. Cheaper, and I don't think our purpose is to provide services at the cheapest possible rate to the taxpayers. I I think that is our purpose. Provide the as good a services as we can at the cheapest possible price. Our job is not to employ people. That's what we have to do in order to deliver that. say it's better to hire two part-time firefighters than one full-time firefighter. I'd love to hire about 20 volunteer firefighters. Yeah, I I think hiring volunteers is an oxymor. We have to respect our our um employee pool as well and to say I mean that that's in my mind that's the Walmart philosophy. So let me add this. I think you are all having the discussions I hoped you would have. So thank you. This is the purpose of let's vet these. Um I would say uh to you councelor Moresy I wouldn't say it's to support employees. I think what you're getting is the services that we are there are services we are not getting now that we would get. And I don't know if Zach can you pull up the that budget request so we can go through them. And basically what I would look at it is, this is my opinion, is for $40,000, here's the services you would get with the extra 10 hours. And then that's how I'd be looking at it. And no one has to look at it the way I do, but Oh, just read it out. And Tina, my dis my comment about the federal funding that they've lost now was outside of this. Correct. Yeah. The

the federal funding that we get is more about programs, but and this person's not involved in programs. Well, this person would be involved in programs. that they're not funded by the government. We we're not actually really getting anything right now. It's, you know, it's grant money. So, here's the applying for we have some our library has some of the highest uh use of any small library in this state and we have a really good reputation. And here's uh Zach's pulled up the budget request. Here is here is the more detail on this for uh what what the purpose. Yes. So the the question uh that I posed to everyone that submits a budget request is please uh describe your request in detail. Uh it said there will be a place to submit supporting document later. So don't do that in this in this place but do that later. Um, and the response was, "The library is requesting the reclassification of a 29-h hour non-bened position to a 40-hour benefited FTE. Last year, we m merged two part-time positions into one 29-hour position. We would like to expand that position to be 40 40 hours and benefited. The addition of this position has allowed us to expand our youth services programming and services uh overall benefiting the library and the city as a whole." So that maybe it was on last year's request where they said we think we can do outreach to the schools, more outreach to something else. Pull that out. There was definitely some of that. Remember this. This is serving our youth point. This is actually it's a budget. You have available funds. You're already over by $14,000. You're supposed to prioritize what's most important. And

if you look at that list and you're adding $40,000 making it 54,000 difference, what are you going to drop? Take some out of uh maybe we only get one firefighter. [Music] I mean, just putting it out there, not that I'm recommending it, but that's the point. What's the updated materials and services budget? I'm looking at just added this was wasn't added. This was it. I mean to me all of the ongoing costs that are already there are need to be there. I guess the other one is um you could fund half of the recommended amount of the increase to kind of fix the pension. So, um, right now, uh, pull up. We're on a certain we're on a certain course to to get to where we need to be in a certain number of years. 31. Yeah. Uh, I think that was under this plan. So, the question would be, is it is this position is having this position worth uh taking two extra years or three extra years to get to um that funding level in the pension? I mean, well, and just to remind us and refresh myself, you did say that the available funds will be going up before the end. No, they will be they'll be fine-tuned. They will be more accurate. The um meaning we will have more data to work with by the end of the year and have a more accurate number for what's available. Got it. Thank you. I wish they went up. I'm I have a hard time with two extra years and I don't know it's two. Um I keep seeing things you're going to hold

me too. I have a hard time with the the library being for one employee and the pension being for many. That that is not wise. We need to be getting overall financial status particularly for pension which is full-time people. and benefits and that's why we're get that up and we shouldn't shouldn't be fooling with that. We're on a good plan right now. Time you're keeping more somebody took this job under those circumstances. The biggest expense on employees is hiring process and training. Right. One year at that level. Okay. I think it's it's I believe it's one year at that level, right? This last year. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I was looking at some library details. This person to 29 hours combined two jobs, two people into one job. Yeah. It wasn't but it and to retain retain an employee. Yeah. It didn't. Yeah. gave many more hours to one person that wasn't available before. Correct. That retain gave the hours to one instead of two. Well, let's just put a check in that box and let's go down a little bit further. Uh, library furniture refresh, new patrol SUV, communications manager pay increase, another retention issue, tasers, I'd like to see that, but yeah, two firefighter positions. Now each position

each position is funded at what 120. Yes. That 120. So the 365 is to buy the equipment that they need to do their job, right? The bunker gear, the the scuba equipment, the whole thing. Uh the 120 is their salaries plus uh benefits. So, and I I typically for a new position will benefit the highest rate and come down on it because then we're not we're not committing to something and then overspending in their benefits. Um that at least for the first year for a new position for ongoing uh expenses that number may fall if they don't take if they don't um take health insurance. Family health insurance is the most expensive thing, right? Right. So, going forward, I'll budget what they were on this year. So, an entrylevel firefighter position is 120,000 with all in. Yeah. But remember, the retirement is like 30% alone. So, we have a couple firefighters, I may be wrong on a number of them, that are funded by grants that we have received. That's what we need to do. And does that are those included in those two positions or is this two additional we haven't figured or but we've already budgeted for those other ones that are being paid for by grants. The other ones are already budgeted and the what I presented uh last week was uh two kind of caveats for this. Uh one is I'd like to see if we can get those grants again. Um, now I have not looked at what the cycles are, if they're available, if they're subject to federal things right now. So, it that's not something would

be for sure, but I at least at least want to have a serious discussion about that. And then the second is there's still some some I think work to develop the the um the actual schedule and the coverage issues and stuff like that. And I think Chief uh Daniels has set up a meeting to be talking about that. Um what what would be the opportunity cost of only doing one now versus two? Um so the goal here I believe from Chief Daniels was to get a minimum of two deep coverage 24 hours a day. So you remove one that is going to get you one deep for 40 hours of that time or something. I mean that's the way to think about it. Uh we'd have to look and see what that's like on a schedule. So is it possible in the first year in 2526 you just hire the person either for start in the in four months into the year and then or take hire hire them in staggered positions. One comes in for the full year, one comes in midyear. Yeah. I uh uh that's I mean that's likely how it's going to happen anyways. Just the hiring practices. I still want to budget the full amount because if we only budget the like uh the actual amount we'll spend, we're already dipping into and committing to next year's budget before seeing what next year's priorities are. So, I'd rather say we're fully committed to doing this. Let's say our revenues are absolutely flat next year and we've only budgeted 75%. We've got to cut 20, you know, enough ongoing expenses elsewhere in the budget to fund what we've already approved. That's right. To make it clear, this is to partially at least because we're losing volunteers. We don't have

volunteers that want to work those overnight hours basically. I think and I would add to that is going to be you know scheduled for 24 hours a day with two paid staff there and I will say two paid staff plus we have our interns so helpers um but I would also say um what I'm anticipating also is um faster response times too so with volunteers um I mean this is two people at the station as opposed to people responding from home and things like that. Mhm. And and you had mentioned that there was u maybe some changes in staffing and um just the scheduling the scheduling of the volunteers etc. that could be improved. Yeah. I mean my goal would be to actually see with this there would be some opportunities to well I will say with this it's too deep all the time. During business hours, it could be um 5 to seven deep. And I my preference would be to see to stretch that out during the busiest hours rather than concentrated during the weekday. But there's a lot that goes into that that still needs to be would need to be worked out. Is that a problem? It's up and coming. Uh we just were held because there was one particular person who would night always after his regular job and uh he's gone. Yeah. Moved away. Yeah. So can I go back to just number seven on the library furniture refresh? Um you you can take that out of the library trust. So just think about that. Okay.

I I would if if this body I I would like for this body to direct me to do that as opposed to you can uh as opposed to me doing it unilaterally. So if if can I make a motion? Well, I think it will be because that's what that's how you'll put it in the budget. Right. Right. And they'll approve it. Right. That money's been sitting there for years and that's money that's just been given in the name of the library and sounds like a good use for it. Yeah. Who has the authority to say that? I think like anything we're doing here, I think this is straw pole to what we're going to include in a final document for this body to to vote on. So like each one of these things I look kind of like a straw pole to get us to a final spot and that can be part of that. I mean money's from the library trust. It was completely unrestricted. We can do anything we want with it. There is no trust. It was just named that line item was named trust. But there is no trust. No, I I think I think we actually have a trust. I think we Well, we will want to verify all of that before we That's good. Good one to go back to the auditor. He should have some information about that. I am personally not aware of any trust that the city has. I thought we had the when we were talking about the different funds that we have a fund that's called right actual trust. I have never seen any documentation that says that the city holds a trust. That would be a lot easier then cuz you have to have an EIN for that.

So, who's going to take that on? I don't think I think I think we can continue to do the research. I don't think there's any more thing that needs to happen here. So, let's see. We're Are we at firefighters or are we beyond that? We're at the next one. updated materials of service budget. Anyone we we already said we think you can find it in existing budget but if anyone wants to make the argument repeater and microwave. So as a as you recall this is a budgeted uh recommendation as it just in case but I think it still needs to be quite a bit of work to further develop it. Um, but we want to have this there uh uh in case we are going to recommend approval. Radar speed trailer. I'm going to rename that speed technology. Ah, there you go. And it's boom boom technology. Well, no. I actually found out this week doing my own stuff that's outdated technology. Now it's like LAR stuff where it's just a little box chained to something so it doesn't walk off and it and it gets it with lasers. So way cooler. Convert sweeper to swap loader. Parks budget increase building maintenance. Can I can we talk about the 5,000 ongoing cost? What was that for? So that that is just for ongoing expenses. The reason it's going to cost us, you know, 75 plus thousand to do this is because we haven't kept up on ongoing maintenance. And so my thought is it's, if I remember correctly, it's only 75,000 was the request for this year. Um, that 5,000 would be next year

and beyond so that we can keep up in small increments as opposed to large outs each year. for uh parks building maintenance so they can be doing projects as needed. So it's we're going to do a five,000 increase every year. Well, this is just a this would be increased. The budget would be increased $5,000. It would stay at that level until we choose to increase it. So stay at 80. The 75 is just for this year so we can get some projects done. We're also budgeting an additional $5,000 and then just the 5,000 would continue into the future. So, they have kind of ongoing but where we know we have specific projects this year um that for the one time. I have a question about whether maintenance costs have decreased since our lease was put in with the school district on Broadway Park. There was never a budget for that maintenance. It was figure it out. So most of our expenses, we didn't have expenses on the field. Most of our expenses we would continue to have, which is the playground, field, and the parking lot. Those are still ours. Um the skate park is one that's kind of this who knows where land that we need to fix. Uh I think traditionally it's been uh something empire uh m maintain or or manages it but it's our asset and so we'll get a request oh the fencing's bad. Can you guys come fix it or can you get a quote and come get it fixed? Um that's something that we'd like to take care of in a separate lease with Sunset

Empire. just basically have the edge of the parking lot kind of the end of our responsibility. Park maintenance, mil ponds, invasive vegetation project, a one time project. I'm going to have some shears to build here and you go to town. We actually have a brush cutter. Take a lot more than that. Weed. Just go rent some goat. That's going to be way more than your 7,000. As far as this vehicle request, is this for Seaside PD? No. Uh, above. This one is public works. I should say that. This is public works. It's two trucks, I think, is what it I did want to mention something about the Seaside PD, though. I noticed that you guys have that little Durango. I think that's what it is. It's a smaller SUV. Yes, the Chief Drives Durango. Yeah. And I think I I like that because I I feel like that saves a lot of money on the vehicle purchases and plus when they're patrolling all day, it's going to save on gas money. I I think it's sufficient to get the job done and probably saves a lot of money in the end comparing to the Taho. So the chief recommends the Taho um and we can bring them in and have that discussion with the council and kind of that a little bit more. Um, part of it has to do with what they the four-wheel cap capacity that they need uh for the beach and things like that, but they say it does better, but I'm not the expert on that. So, he says the Taho do. Yeah. Yeah. They've done both. They're trying to standardize it and they think they believe the Tahoe is better. Now, is it a coincidence that the Taho is the nicer and about 50,000? I'm the skeptical person, too. So, um, um, and then part of it is, uh, and I don't know how much of that is also and it'll be a

better vehicle when we give it to public works. Now, I want to be out of the business. I want to be out of the business of that. So, um, okay. ICC digital code subscription. Yeah, you got to do that. EC backup power. That is I don't know. I got a bid for a about a 22,000 kilowatt generator in the 20 to 25 range. So, a couple couple things two of those is and is that because I want because one of the things about this location is it the ones around here feed off of the I believe John can correct me off of the natural gas around here. So, we have kind of endless energy. We don't have that up at the EOC. So, it's going to have to be a diesel um generator and so there are it's more than like I'd be doing a natural gas one at home or something like that. So, it is a little bit different but you know um Zach and I I don't know if you have more info. We've been spitballing. Are there opportunities? Do we have some diesel ones on buildings now in the city that we could move up there and put the new one on a building that we use all the time? Would we be better off putting it uh buying a trailer version that's parked up there and can be used or it could be dispatched? We talked about that today and as we were looking at other options and that's why we hadn't checked it there because we weren't quite comfortable enough. But what did you find out? Yeah. So, so this 80,000 came from a um estimate that we received from Inland Electric. I want to say it was last summer if I remember correctly. Um, we were applying for a grant. We were, yeah, we were trying to get a grant that we didn't get. Um, so they gave us the the estimate at that point.

Um, and so I I called Ed earlier today and just had him throw some just like Spencer said, we're throwing some alternatives around. And the one that I had I had thought was, well, maybe we don't need a maybe rather than going with a permanent generator, maybe a mobile generator might be cheaper. And in the event that we don't need it at the EOCC and need it at a pump state or like elsewhere in the city, we might be able to repurpose that for a period of time. So I asked him to to take a look at that. I know nothing about generators. I'm not going to pretend I do. Uh so he took a look at that and just for the EOC uh he said mobile generator unit um 50 kilowatt diesel generators somewhere between 40 and 60 depending what you get. And so the the 80 that you're seeing up there is for a fixed unit plus the site work that goes into it. Um the mobile units a little more than half of that. I think it makes sense, too. You also have a big cost with the transfer switch, right? Which I I I think we already have that up there because there's a generator up there, but it's a World War II era thing that no one can figure out how to start. It's it's using breakers. Yeah, maybe. Then there's some more research we probably need to do like what is the diesel storage capacity of one versus the other. There's some fine things here, but that's an option. Plus, if you got a mobile one, um, as I've already requested several times, we really do need to have a generator at the community center. Um, we had already this past winter three days when they had to shut down and that meant that the seniors who were coming for lunch

um, couldn't get their lunch. They couldn't be there. Um and so and is a it's a community center and so it should be a place where people can congregate when we have those weather issues. So uh having a mobile generator could mean that we could bring that to the community center uh to keep it up and running and to serve our population better. I'm all for a generator at the EOC. I feel like it needs that backup power, but that price seems very high to me. And you could you could even go with a gas option temporarily until we can budget for it. I mean, Home Depot has them for $2,000, so I don't think it's something that we have to spend a large amount of money on. It just sounds to me like it's something that we need to do a little more planning on. And that's why that's why I hadn't recommended it was not ready for prime time. But if we want to put a placeholder, we can. But I'll leave it up to you. I' I'd say put a placeholder in there. Yeah, I'd love a placeholder. Generator power at maybe Does 50,000 sound okay? Or 40? 40. If you're going to do a placeholder, leave it at that, but don't authorize it to be spent. And that way we don't tie our hands if it comes back at 55,000. And you don't and by saying generator, you don't say where it has to be. Well, right there it says EOC. Yeah, but I'm saying take that off. Yeah, I would put Well, but the question is I I would put it in contingency at the in the EOCC fund. And so that's that's not to say that if we went the mobile rout and again this needs more work, but if we went the mobile route, it couldn't be used elsewhere, but that would be where I would budget the contingency stored.

So, what do we say? My research 50 sounds good to me. It's a It's a onetime cost that we're not authorizing to spend it. Let's leave it in there. Yeah. Add it in as is. Buy the generator this year and hook it up next year. Okay. Or maybe we can end up buying two generators. You never know. We put one stocking. I'm sorry. I was going to say we put one at the grocery store and it it wasn't near 50,000 and that powers the whole store. So I can't imagine that they need that bigger generator. That's a big generator. Admittedly, some people sometimes see government and they go, "Okay, tsunami barrel cash restocking." So, when you're looking at equipment like this, are you looking for them on places like Oregon buys where there's already a price steel? That's where I'd be going. This this was to get a quote to submit for a grant. Uh the first thing we'll be doing when we purchase anything is going look at the state cooperative contracts and see if it's already there because that's always going to be the best deal. So, um, and the $7,500 ongoing cost, that's going to be $7,500 per year into the future. I mean, what is that? Because we're pulling up the budget request for this barrel is probably replacing everything that's in them that's probably been in there for 10 years. Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly having a rotation annually. So, so that's that's not entirely the way the way that I thought about that. So, so basically the $38,000 is um is 5 years of stuff that has been sitting there. Right. All needs to be replaced right now. It's all expiring. So, in essence, this isn't saying we don't we just

honestly don't have the the the personnel to replace this once a year. This is saying set aside $7,500 every year so that in five years we've got the we've got the funds to do this again rather than and we've saved that that amount of money rather than going going in at that point and saying she not request a 7500 38 38 is what she requested. I also see us though budgeting that 75 and I shouldn't be spending it elsewhere. Right. So that was that was the logic. So one thing one thing we could do is just make that a zero and keep that. The other thing is I think Ann even said just because it's expiring this year doesn't mean it has to be this year. Would you survive if you ate it next year? I mean that's the other I could see leaving the 38 but taking the 75. [Music] I agree. All those agreed say I. I. Okay. Let's see if I can break this. Okay. Well, I was just going to say that you could get food that lasts 20 or 25 years. So, I don't think it needs to be an annual event to restock a cash. Well, I think how much you want to spend on setting food. Oh, I I don't think it'd be much more expensive, honestly. We have the Mountain House stuff and it's not expired yet. We've had it up. We've got a box up on the hill, too. of the amount you're paying to to feed thousands of people. This is like this this is isn't this some kind of like bar that the one bar will get your family of five through three days? I mean this is actually we we looked you I had Yeah, I had never heard of this before

but expired. Spencer's right. This is this is for bars of this this protein basically. Yeah. Just a bunch of stuff thrown in and put in in barf bar form that apparent it'll keep you alive, but it is apparently not pleasant. No, those are terrible. But and there is also a lot of nonfood items in there as well. This isn't just food. I know I know a little bit about tsunami food caches, right? And uh you know, we've done some projects before that are pretty darn inexpensive. And uh but it does require I would say it requires some work up front and then being able to restock it you know every couple of years. Yeah. But amount a lot less expensive right and maybe supposed to feed how many people for how long? It's like 20 people for I want to say it's three days. Three days something like that if I remember correctly. The the other option we could do is not budget. 38,000 but only budget the 7500 ongoing and we're going to restock this year um you know a quarter of them and next year we'll do the other quarter and so we're doing a little bit because one of the problems is my understanding for those of you who are here correct me it was a ton of work to put those together and um we don't we don't have the staffing now to go and do that it's going to have to be some kind of big volunteer project, but it but it is a little bit easier. Drop it off at every house that has a cash and you say, "Change it out. You're never going to get Yeah. What what we've been told happen is Yeah, you're welcome to go restock it. Since I'm since you're renting my space for free, um it's there in the back back of the garage behind all these other things, you can move

that." Um, so it may be a little uh more better of a project to do at a quarter of a time, even if that means the fourth year we get to stuff that's more expired. Again, doesn't sound like the taste is going to change if it's expired. So be a good Pacifica project. That's how it was done five years, was it? That's what I thought. It was two strapping young boys, high school seniors. and Ann Yeah. Ann says she's not really in a position to be moving barrels. No. So, what you said was we could put the 7500 as a one-time cost. No, as a ongoing and then just instead of a big upfront, let's do a quarter of it or I I was going to say divide that by four or divide by five if we wanted to do 20% each year or 25% each year. My understanding is as we're budgeting the one-time expenses, we're almost at a million dollars and we have 9 million savings. That money is coming out of our savings. Correct. And so 38,000 I don't get old. I'm sorry. I don't know the history here. Why do we do this in the Funny, David. Why do we as a city provide this service and who gets it? There was a big push for emergency preparedness and the idea is everyone's going to flee up to the hill during a tsunami and they're going to need food. The problem is that nobody knows which houses have these caches. I don't know which house to go to. EOC, so we may have a different store need a different storage plan. Oh, that's that would make a lot of sense. shipping containers at the EOC as opposed to houses.

If it's not in a public place, I don't get Yeah, I would re-evaluate the program myself before I would spend more money on it. Yeah, I agree. There was um there was another grant earlier this year. Um uh I don't I don't know if this is patterned after Canon Beaches, but Canon Beach has a program and they do have some basically shipping containers that are way up some road somewhere. Canon Beach and Gear Harbor both have personal basically storage. Sorry, I was holding out because I haven't even talked to the bosses about this yet. Um Ann is out. I think Ann McBride as you know is out and so there's kind of been some developments with some grant funding from the state that both the city and the school district applied for. So there's these conx boxes that basically are earmarked for seaside but we have to act fast before we were told no. That's what happened today is we're not being told yes. So there's some developments there that I sorry between that was at 2 and this meeting was at 3 and I didn't even have so some background on that's where I was getting with Canon Beach. You go up some roads and they have some conx boxes that are stocked full with a whole bunch of stuff and um so they're available there. We had applied for some. We were told no. So So yeah, both the both the school district and the city applied for it. We were told no. that since come back and and basically are we need to do ready to provide three 40 foot conx boxes with materials provided. So wow, we have another meeting scheduled for Tuesday because we have to decide if the school district's going to get it or if we're going to get it and then kind of some it's an act fast type of thing. But so I'm hearing maybe with that maybe take this out for now. I think we leave it in there as

something to put intoxic supplied. Well, there is an as there is an aspect of this that there still may be some cost for the city. However, it's this year. So, there is that aspect of it because it has to be done by June 30th. That's someone else couldn't meet the deadline. So, like, hey, can you There you go. So, they're spending this bienium's money before it has to go back to the feds into the big pool. That's what's happening is that they're like if you can say yes and have a spot with a solid right with a solid foundation to put it on. And we identified a couple locations that are up on the hills where we own property where we could put it. The contractor that reviewed the location likes the location and is recommending their location. So near the EOC. I'll say that. Oh, I will say this. We we had looked at other sites not by the EOC because one thing is the EOC is not the public site for people to gather. It's to um I was holding back because there's a lot of details to be worked out. So all right. So just a little bit of background on the Canon Beach site since you referenced them. It they it is um containers that they have up in several locations. that started out in one location and they were empty containers that they bought and the public bought barrels from the city, loaded them themselves and brought dropped them off there and they were stored in these containers for years um and with the opportunity on Earth Day this week during like this week's time to go in and refresh your own barrel. Over the years, it is definitely that evolved and developed more. They have more city sponsored boxes there where they have supplies that they control and that they know, but there's still those containers that are supplied by and with barrels with people's names on it and identification on it from this from the city.

Gary Hart has the same structure except I don't think Gearart itself does it. I think it's strictly citizens. It's run through their certainty. So, what are we recommending that we take that we leave it in or take it out? Why don't you take it out and put the 7500 back in every year and just make sure it's right. I' I'd like to leave it there because if we're getting a jump start on it, it gives us the imper, you know, the the idea of going and making sure that we're doing it right and we've got maybe that money goes to medical supplies for up there or something else to fill it something and the and the conx boxes might require infrastructure underneath it to be able they might need a slab. They may need power. The other element to that is their hope is that by starting this they're hopeful to Yes. to do more. So that opens the door to because they're prioritizing that level of support to communities for catching up basically. And when they come up in the future, if we say we've done these investments, then they're willing to put more to it. Yeah, I leave that the way it is. Okay. So, tsunami siren maintenance. We adjusted that. Oh, but it doesn't have a check mark. Weren't we going to put that? Leave it in there. I thought we were. No, I don't think No, we were taking it out. No, I think we were putting We're putting it in there for this year to give us time to determine what we're going to do moving forward. Right. I got to go in and fix You got to fix a formula of some sort. Yeah.

uh retirement that stays that stays. Church demolition. Oh, I think we need to put it in there. I think if we if we don't put it in there, then we need to put in the uh opport the costs that it's have that we're having to pay to not do it ongoing. Is we're having to pay insurance for something that's not next to the library. Are you sure? It's a beautiful church. Or we're we've done I'm trying to save it everything I think we need to do on the demolition side. It's kind of the only choice left. So in just getting it over with. Yeah. It's it's a lot of money to spend on both of these for you get anything there. You know, we we really have not decided. We kind of think it needs to come down, but the school admin. Which one? The church down near me. Oh, the church. The school the admin building. Where are we going after we tear the building down for instance? And can we tear it down? It's in a flood plane and all these other things. So given that it's a park, why can't we use TLT? I'll let you have that discussion with Cora. Hey, want to have it? In theory, in theory, that would expand our park. Hold it in the asbestous building, but it's a it's a public park. Why are you spend $500,000 when you're not going to do anything with it? Because we are we are paying a couple thousand a year to insure it. We could expand the park if we could use TLT. We have to

uh just just the liability. It's occasionally used to police department used it not too long ago. We got very special permission from our insurance company cuz it's insur it's it's insured as a nonused building and so we have to go through special protocols for like the once a year. They used to use it more but it was kind of hard in violation. What's that? It's an opportunity to improve that part. Have we got a second quote on that church or on the uh both of these were based on a quote? Uh and this and this this does not include any asbestous removal. That's right. It just seems high to me. $500. It's high. It's because it's all concrete. So, it's all got to get like chipped out or however they do it. That's That's the cost is the amount of concrete. You can't even burn it down. I mean, this could be the next um battery Russell Seaside or something like that. original that was the original can be and obviously uh Seth I would say obviously we're going to do whatever cheapest we can if hopefully it comes in less than that and we so we'd get multiple uh quotes and we think we have a line on some uh grant funding for the asbestous portion understanding there's now some bacteria bugs that you just put in there and they eat the concrete That'd be great. Yeah, they're I would say I'd say they're they're in our sewer wells. Put this in in contingency line. Actually, budget the school demolition will put this in contingency. When you say this, you mean the church? No, the school admin. Okay. Okay. I think I think the church I I'm ready to go for it. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Definitely. And uh you know if nothing else just create more parking for the library. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Thees development strategy talked about that earlier. That's why it's there. It's got a check. So your job is to find $1.5 million. We have 1.5 million. We have nine. Perfect. Now your job is to refine the numbers and hopefully we come up with 47,000. So we can uh check under all the couch cushions and um refine it. Place the things in the library. They should be there. What's that? Furniture in the library. Those those pouch cushions are checked probably every day by people. during recess. Okay. Recess until next Wednesday. I was going to say, is there are there any other things that staff need to be doing work on and better research for next week? I think the goal would be next week to be in a position to to approve it. I just don't want to be caught off guard and we need to have another meeting. I would like to see you have conversations with the fire chief and kind of strategize out what that will it be $240,000 to 2027 28 29 in an item. Yeah. The discussions I'm going to have is is how it's going to work and there will be some council discussion. So we'll come back and we would come back and say present this as a program. this is a change from this is how we're operating now to this is how we're operating. These are the benefits we'd see, the citizens would see um and stuff like that. But if we can come up with the

$47,000 funding a lot of really good stuff and bringing the city up to current is an amazing strategy. All right, let's recess until next Wednesday. This should be saving right there at 3:00.