Cultural Commission - Regular Meeting

K. It is 06:03PM, and I will do the roll call for the board of library trustees meeting. See, vice chair Troy Farrells? Here. Trustee Nguyen? Yeah. Trustee Rikosa? Here. Trustee Mohan? Here. And chair Evans is also here, so we have full attendance of everybody. K. First item on the agenda is the consent calendar. The consent calendar is approved in one motion. Do we have a motion that have a motion

to approve the consent calendar.

Well, I have I have a comment.

A comment? Okay. We can vote

for discussion. So for the the first minutes, the meeting was canceled, so shouldn't the rest of the contents of the minutes be struck? Once the item that says the meeting was canceled, the rest of the stuff never occurred. So but that should be canceled, removed from the minutes.

We checked with the clerk's office before producing them, but we can check again and bring that back.

I believe you have to just continue I mean, you share the rest of the agenda as as it was posted, but there's no minutes attached to it because there's no action that was taken.

But that's but but there's no comment to that effect.

The the meet they indicated they just put meeting canceled at the top.

Well, I I think the comment you're at is that there is there is a minute that shows that the attendance present apps up. I don't know. I think that's what you're talking about. I see what thought, Seth. Just that it's just that it has the present absence and roll call information?

No. After that, it says public presentations, general business, rec Oh, the item shouldn't. Recommendations, staff report, trustees report, all that's still listed, and none of that occurred.

I I guess I guess the question is, I guess, is this what the guidelines from the city clerk's office? How we

We checked with the clerk's office, but we can go back and check following the meeting and then bring that back next time to have the meeting minutes approved at the next meeting if you prefer.

K. Yeah. I just thought it was strange having it in there. But

But can we separate is it possible to separate out the two items suddenly set the There is just that February 12 meeting?

Canceled meeting, not the other meeting.

And they're listed together as one item. Said that's why it's Fine.

Is that alright? You can basically make a motion to approve one of the minutes, and then we move to continue the minutes for the next one to the next meeting.

And that's what like.

Or, alternatively, you could just direct staff to maybe make a notation on the canceled meetings to make it clear that items listed below the intended agenda, but that ultimately no meeting was held on those items. No meeting and no minutes. So whatever the board would like to do.

Yeah. Tour is easier.

It would probably easier to I wouldn't clarify to add it though, but but we won't get a chance to see it again. So first, you're gonna start, like, I guess you're you're the

Let's do the approval separately. Right? So it does, you said.

Yes. You can do them more separately.

Your motion to then approve, the meeting minutes for February 12 and continue the meeting minutes for February 2, with annotations. So then next week.

Do we need a second or

a swan? I think we need a second. Okay. I guess all in favor of the motion, say aye. You can take mine. That that passes. So I guess we approve the twelfth and then give me the second to

So noted.

Okay. First item of business is public presentation oh, not business public presentations. And so public presentations is an opportunity for members to address the board on items not otherwise on the agenda. Do we have anyone members of the public who would like to address the board?

Pardon me? I was distracted.

Usually, if do we have time now who would like to address the board? Yes.

Okay. I have a whole list of things, actually. So first of all, I'd like to just update the board on changes that we're making to book sales.

Sorry. Just briefly, can you research on that.

I'm Joanne Davis, executive director of the Santa Clara City Library Foundation and Friends.

Glenn asked if maybe she might wanna come in.

Yeah. Just to make sure you're heard. I'm just a little worried about you being back there. It's pretty enough to the mic. Sammy, are

you anyone tells me I'm too blinded. Okay. You want me start over again?

That you're picked up.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm Joanne Davis, executive director of the Santa Clara City Library Foundation and Friends, and I'd like to report to the board on some changes that we're making to our book sales and also some upcoming events. As you probably know, we have a Saturday sale Friday afternoon and a Saturday sale the third weekend of every month. We we experimented having an extra sale at the Central Park branch on Sunday afternoon, and it was pretty successful, And people really liked it. So but what we're going to do just to kinda make it more efficient for our volunteers is we're moving instead of the last Sunday of the month, we're going to have the Sunday sale the same weekend that we have the Saturday sale.

So we'll have one weekend a month. We'll do all three sales on three days at Central Park branch. It's gonna make it a lot more convenient for our volunteers because we have a lot of extra volunteers that come in and to help just specifically on that weekend. And and, again, people really like it. Just like the Friday afternoon sales, we started to kinda try it and see if people would like it, and they've been really, really popular.

And the that Saturday sale is really back to pre pandemic levels, so the the revenue from those sales are really going up. So we hope that adding Sunday will just increase that. Part of the reason that we started thinking about that is we realized leading up to the seventieth anniversary of the mission branch that the foundation really wasn't doing anything consistently at the mission branch. And so that is well, that just wasn't okay. And so we've been trying to think of what could we do there.

It's a it's a really great branch. It's a really active community. So what we are going to start doing is something similar to what we started at Northside. So we will have a book sale on Monday mornings, late mornings, at least starting out at once a month. We did that at Northside, and it's popular because that's when people come to the library.

It's a stay and play, so there's a book, a story time, and then a play time. And so we'll have the book sale to coincide with that with that story time, which we think will be really popular. And then in talking with the staff, at the Mission branch because we thought maybe we do two Mondays a month, but they'd like to try doing a sale on a weekend when they have an event, which they have periodically. So it may not be, like, always the second Saturday or something like that, but, but we'll do that. And we really think that that will, engage the community, in that neighborhood.

Last fall, if you recall, we were just going over there and giving away books on Wednesday afternoons, and, people really liked that. And so we got to talk to a lot of people in the neighborhood, and they really were, showed a great interest in having more things like that at that branch. So part of our thinking around combining the Saturday sale branch, you know, combining the book sales at central on one weekend is it frees us up, to do another weekend event, you know, if we, you know, if we can at the Mission branch and then add in the Monday. So, again, it's a little gonna be a little bit of a strain on our volunteers. So Anviva and I may be the ones doing the book sales over there to start out with, but we're hoping as we as we get out there and and meet more people and and make more friends that we'll get other volunteers involved in doing things like that in the Mission branch.

And the and also the Old Quad Neighborhood Association was really excited about having us kinda do more things out there, and they're very in the community. So I'll be contacting them with dates and event times. And then I'll keep you updated on how that goes. So we're really pretty excited about it. The one other thing is Mission along with just like Northside will be not a twelve month schedule.

They the sales will start in March, and then they go through September. So it's kind of like a a time when we got a lot of families, the weather's good because the sales are outside and all of that. We have a couple of events coming up. On April 1, which is already also library giving day, we are gonna be having trivia night at TapLands in Santa Clara. It's gonna be a first come, first serve because seating is limited.

Matt, the owner of TapLands, is gonna be donating proceeds from the evening to the Library Foundation. And so if you don't like to play trivia, you can come and have a beer and or or something to eat, and and that will all help help support the foundation. This is a little bit of a a friend maker, you know, doing something in the community that's different from from what we usually do to maybe introduce the foundation to, you know, people who may not know about us and also to do we do a lot of things for children, and this is really an adult an adult thing. So it'll start at 07:00 and go till nine. That's a Wednesday.

And, again, it's at TapLand's, and there'll be information on our website. At the event, we'll be we'll be working with the trivia by Troy who who runs their Monday night trivia nights that that that TapLands has been having for for quite a while. And they're also donating their time to us, to to do the event. And we might have some surprises in there, maybe a raffle basket or something. But, anyway, we're gonna give it a try and and see if if, you know, if it'll be fun. I think well, trivia, I think, is fun.

So it should be fun.

It's in a bar. I mean, you know, I don't know. Hey. I don't know how it could not be fun. But And then, the big event this year is, 2026 is the twenty fifth anniversary of the establishment of the Santa Clara City Library Foundation and Friends as a nonprofit organization. We're super excited about that. We are having an anniversary celebration on May 26 May 16.

Jeez. That's okay.

May 16. I've gotten all the dates wrong for the last two weeks no matter who I'm talking to. Saturday, May 16 at the Triton Museum of Art, six to 9PM, and I am and I'm really excited to say that, our special guest this year will be Alexis Madrigal, who is cohost of Forum on KQED and also author of several books. The most recent one is called Pacific Circuit, Battle for the Soul of an American City, which is kind of the story kind of focuses on Oakland, but what the book is really looking at is the impact of Silicon Valley, a lot of money, a lot of technology, and what that impact has on the neighborhoods and on the cities that are already existing that may not be taking part in all of the hoopla that goes along with, with the tech world. So he's really engaging.

He's also, you know, writes for The Atlantic, I think, and, you know, just a number of things. He's a really interesting guy. If you don't have the book, I'm well, I'm trying to see if we can maybe sell the book at the event. Maybe he'll do a book signing. We're kinda working on the details of that. But he's super interesting, and he lives in the Bay Area, so he has a lot of insight on a lot of things going on. So I think that he'll be a real addition to our our event. We also will have our live auction and delicious food and other surprising things that that we're still finalizing. And I think that's probably it. That's a lot.

The paperback's coming out in March.

His paperback yeah. His book came out last spring, and paperback's coming out in March, so this is also kind of a a launch for him. You know, we had Olivia Allen Price year before last from KQED. This is this is my semi genius way of becoming friends with people at KQED because they're local. They're in the Bay Area. They're community oriented. They have people with a lot of expertise, and I and I think it's, it it hopefully is just gonna grow into a really good partnership between the the Santa Clara libraries. Does anyone have any questions? I know that was a lot of information. Everything will be on our website, wwwlovethelibrary.org.

Registration is not set up for the May 16 event yet, but it will be soon. Many of you probably received save the date cards, I hope. If not, invitations will be going out. And if you want extra invitations to give to family, friends, or whatever, I can provide, extra copies, and I can provide, electronic copies. So if you wanna email them to people.

Is this a fundraiser or and it's a ticket?

Or

The yes. The the event on the '20 on the twenty fifth anniversary event see, that's why I keep thinking it's on May 25.

I don't

know why. That is a fundraiser. So that's our annual fundraiser. So we'll have an auction. The ticket prices are gonna be a $120 for early bird and a $140 for if you missed that cutoff. Trying to think what else.

That's pretty much it. Fun. Yeah. It's gonna be fun.

You know, the venue is really nice. We're really, really we sent out way more invitations this year than we have in the past few years, so we're really hoping to get a good turnout. Being that it's our twenty fifth anniversary, I've been in touch with with a lot of people who have been involved in the foundation over the last ten and fifteen and twenty years, trying to encourage them to come. We're also going to be working with, we are working with a production company who's, doing a promotional video for the foundation, and so that's in process. And then we're working with, Luis Castillo, who many of you know is our photographer from previous years, and he's gonna be working with us starting later in the spring in capturing the history.

So we'll be reaching out to a lot of you who've been involved in the foundation and in the library and just doing some film and getting some oral history that we can just have in our archives for the next twenty five years. That's it. That was my longest one yet. I've been Right. Thank you. Thank you.

K. Do you have

anybody else? Anyone who's in the?

It's not a member of the public, but no hands raised.

No hands raised? One extra attendee at one. Okay. I guess we'll move on to the journal we're trying journal business then. I will turn that over to you.

Hey. So, before you tonight, we're we'll be starting off with item number two, which is discussion and action on recommending potential revisions to city charter section ten twelve and section ten thirteen for consideration by the charter review committee. And we are very lucky tonight to have our city attorney, Glenn Guggins, here. And, you know, we've been working very hard, I think, for the last couple of months on, the language and the concepts within the charter, going over quite a few, all of the areas, even throwing in some review of the ordinances a little bit. And we've been able to share that that information with Glenn, but I think I'm gonna turn it over to him because I think he'll sort of give you the tenor for what's gonna happen this evening, how we can all work together and answer any questions we might have.

And then also, I hope lead into a discussion about what's important about the charter and and what kinds of ideas that you might wanna retain as well as those that you might think about foregoing. So

Very good.

Sir. Thank you.

Thank you, madam director, for that introduction. Glenn Guggins, city attorney here. Happy to be with you. I think I was last in front of you on this topic sometime ago, early November, about four months ago, to introduce to you what was going on with the the charter review and update and, hopefully, to give you a sense of of where you fit, you know, into that process in that. Every provision is being looked at, including provisions that relate to the composition and the powers and duties of this organization.

And, really, the project was just getting underway back then. It's now really in full swing that the charter review committee itself has been meeting monthly. But maybe more importantly, they have created on our recommendation six working groups. We've, in effect, tried to, in a logical way, break the charter up, you know, into subject, you know, matter areas. And one of those subject matter areas most relevant to you is article 10, the provision regarding appointed boards and commissions, which includes, as I stated, provisions for your composition, powers, duties of the board of library trustees.

And this group, of course, logically, was identified as a key stakeholder in that process. One of the things this project is trying to be very attentive to is to be sensitive to who has relevant information about the different charter sections and how they operate, and that frequently includes, you know, staff people. But particularly where it's boards and commissions, of course, the boards and commissions themselves. Right? And looking and revisiting and looking at whether or not, you know, there is alignment between what the charter says about the boards and commissions and what the boards and commissions actually are now doing maybe in a more modern, you know, era and what the boards and commissions themselves think are important to do.

The idea of this exercise amongst others is to align that. Right? Align what the charter says, which with, how it's actually, you know, functioning in real life out in the community. And so I understand you guys, in some respects, are ahead of the game with risk, as compared to the other boards and commissions. Planning commission is, supposed to present to them later this month.

I'm gonna, present to Parks and Rec later this month. Sue Ruder got ahead of me with civil service commission. They've already met, you know, and provided input on on their sections. But you've taken this subject up, you know, in at least a couple of meetings now so far. And I think the intent was for this meeting, ideally, to consolidate, you know, those thoughts and through interactions and help as you deem, you know, deem helpful from me, deciding what form, you know, that might take and how you might approach, you know, providing that, you know, communication to your group four ad hoc, you know, subcommittee signed, with this subject.

I've already briefed them in general on on this subcommittee and some of the things that Patty's provided me that you've been talking about. So they're they're familiar, generally, at least, the issues that you've been wrestling with. They're also very eager to hear from you. And if you're able to complete your work, tonight and give staff whatever direction you think is necessary to support your designee, be it the chair or somebody else to go present to them. They're actually scheduled to meet, on Thursday, March 12, at 6PM, in a conference room at at the city Count, at the Civic Center.

If that's not convenient for whoever you're designated to represent, it's not the last meeting they're gonna have, and they'll they'll have others to present. But that, they they are available and, able to, you know, hear you out as early as that. Very challenging with six ad hoc subcommittees funding, you know, times for them to meet, and so we kinda try to catch them when we can, you know, when they're available. So other than that, I'm really here to answer your questions and provide any guidance you think might be helpful in translating, you know, this group's kind of interests in retaining things that you think are really important, you know, in the existing charter provisions, maybe updating them, you know, in ways that are are more consistent with best practices and how you're functioning now. And the balance.

Right? The the, you know, the the the significant importance of this group and the value of its input with probably the reality that this really isn't the group running the library so much as being a valuable, you know, resource from providing input to, you know, key library decisions and and policies. And so with that, mister chair, I'll I'll be quiet and and and listen and provide support as you all deem appropriate.

K. Thanks.

Did you wanna add anything else? I'm sorry.

So one of the things that we could do, Cherubins, with with your permission is if you wanna bring up Yeah. I was gonna say The the role that was draft

draft that we

the document of the things that we then this way, everybody has opportunity to take a look at what you've said before. So we'll do that. Thank you, Sammy.

I didn't skip in the opportunity.

We didn't attach it as it for one one reason was you were still working on it in terms of draft form. The other thing is that, because our documents are open to the public, we didn't wanna forego for somebody to see it and then think that this is what's gonna be on the ballot, to be honest. So we we said we would just have it available to you as a reference. And then whenever you're ready, of course, we'll make it available to the public, but you're I don't think we're quite ready for consumption quite yet.

And I might add, if

I might, mister chair, that is consistent with the approach we're even taking with the ad hoc subcommittees. We're working through draft language, you know, from from them when we have had input from professional staff and or, you know, identified third party stakeholders. And when I present when we've done actual drafting, we put the drafting up on the screen. Yeah. But we're not releasing that to the public because they're drafts. Right? It's all very, very preliminary until the individual ad hoc subcommittees themselves present out to the larger, you know, subcommittee, then it's more available for public, you know, consumption. And so what you've described is roughly consistent with that. I think it's an appropriate sensitivity to that. Yeah.

We don't want people thinking this is how it's gonna be until it's an actual recommended thing.

Okay. Yes. So, chairman, how would you like to proceed? Yeah.

So so we we spent a bunch of time putting this this document or kind of, like, set of ideas together. And I guess the guidance from our side, I think, was to understand how do we take the changes or the feedback we've gotten and make that something that's an actual goal for the subcommittee, and then we're still trying to review commission to really use. Maybe we could go through each of the sections with the attorneys so we can kinda understand what was hired, you know, and then, I guess, look to staff and effort and figure out how to word things to express their data.

Yeah. Happy to engage in that way.

Do you want the staff to do this, or do you want would or do you wanna do this?

I think it's still fine for you to to transfer because you you have to be on the press. We have we have it open and everything.

Okay. So the charter for sections ten twelve actually currently reads, there shall be a board of library trustees consisting of five members to be appointed by the city council from the qualified electors of the city, and no member of said board shall held any paid officer employment in the city government. So the the tenor of the of the conversation about that was the first, the words qualified electors, which was at at one point, I thought that maybe that the the rest of the the committee was gonna be working on, but you have told me that maybe not everybody concurs with that.

Mhmm.

The the group actually felt pretty strongly that we that it should not be just qualified electors that might be eligible. And so if that could be removed, that would be better for them.

Very good. I've got some some thoughts on that too in terms of placing it in context. That that is

And to maybe think about residents so that it's more clear

Yeah.

That to be anybody who lives here as opposed to just qualified electors.

Right. And and the issue that this gets at without specifically saying it, right, is qualified electors to be a qualified elector, you in effect need to be a citizen, right, of the of The United States as opposed to a resident who might not have full documented status. Right? Am I capturing your interest, you know, correctly in order to be more inclusive, right, to have people who are not mere residents, right, but residency status is enough as a person qualified, right, to serve on a on a board of commission and and, you know, provide input because they're here. It sounds like there's a

lot of residents who are not US and they may be permanent residents or whatever. They they're here for work, and but they're still

then that's right. And they're they're qualified. Elector status, right, may not, you know, may not exist. And that is a thing that a a a number of jurisdictions are are doing, as part of sometimes comprehensive charter updates or or sometimes merely because these can be, you know, sensitive issues as stand alone, you know, measures to expand, you know, the eligibility for board and commission, you know, input beyond, you know, the qualified electric status. And in fact, one of the inspirations for me doing this project up here was me doing this project down in my old city down in Chula Vista.

This very measure was included in their comprehensive update and passed, you know, by the citizenry along with many, other, you know, changes throughout the document. I think it is a purse perfectly reasonable and appropriate thing for you to, recommend. It may or may not be the opinion of the other boards and commissions, right, that their board of commission or this issue generally, you know, should apply to them. It may not end up being the position of the, of the subcommittee or ultimately the committee or even the council. But if you guys, as a stakeholder, feel like the representation on this board would benefit from expanding, you know, the eligibility requirement, that's a perfectly fine and appropriate thing to to recommend.

So that's been my experience with it. I just I don't wanna you to think that everyone's thinking, you know, this exact you know, the same way, but it is something I have experience with and and, you know, in my old community was included, you know, as part of a charter update.

Okay. Should we go to the next one? Yep. Alright. So, increasing the number of trustees from five to seven, and I think maybe the board can talk about why that's important.

So we can have a quorum easier than when we had to cancel a meeting last time because we didn't have a quorum. If someone's sick or out of town, if you have seven members, it's much easier to have a quorum. Right?

Yep. Yeah. I think a couple reasons. Right? There's the quorum. It's easier to have quorum. You you you lose two people or three people. Now you're you still can't have a a meeting, so that that's one hard. And then the other thing is just getting more voices on the board so that we can have both of those. Just More opinions. More opinions. Yeah. Yeah.

And and I think, just there is enough room to go around. So just having more people on the board can be a good thing.

The the other reason is that you can have larger subcommittees. Now you can't have a subcommittee of three because that's the majority of the board that violates the Brown Act. So and the larger subcommittees book seven standard medleys.

I love hearing my Brown Act training repeated back to you. Not that you needed it. You knew that already.

You're impressed. Right? Yes.

Very, very

You know, in hearkening back to what, Salim was saying is there's more than enough work to go around. This If I just could remind the board that they have wanted to have liaisons to most of the other trustees at commission meetings that and they don't have enough of them to attend those meetings. There's lots of groups out there that they would love to liaise a little more formally, and they just can't make it because there's not enough

goal. Mhmm.

Yeah. But we we all we all can't attend,

like, four different reasons. You know? I've been asking

Right. Hard. Right.

Well, on the library, I think this is important, you know, in terms of representing to a lot of those groups already. And but we just can't make it.

Do did we look at any Mike, might I comment?

Did did

we look at what other boards and commission compositions are, not just the charter ones, but just other ones generally? I think planning commission is seven. Yep. Right? Parks and rec, I think, is even nine.

We're the smallest. We know like Yeah. Civil service that we have. Yeah.

I mean Yeah. Civil service might I

think most are seven or more.

Most are seven or more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is another not justification for it. Right? But in but putting it in the context of this charter project, it's an alignment, right, with the other, you know, boards and commissions and with the scope of work that you all do and the need, you know, to achieve, you know, quorum and more inclusion and activation, an increase to seven, is is consistent with the charter project concept, and, I can see that being well received.

Not not wanting to speak for the the committee. Doing doing a informal survey about live reports across the state, and seven is very common. Gotcha. So that's another

Yeah. So benchmarking to the extent we have any for that will be a useful thing to present Okay. To to this group. They're asking us for we're trying to predict what the different subcommittees are interested in and thinking things that we might find useful. Benchmarking is always very helpful. And so to the extent we've got benchmarking information to include in whatever presentation goes to them, that would be good. They'd they'd be used to that because they're asking for that themselves.

Okay.

Good.

Alright.

Then

we're at chartered and the top of the section reads, the board of library trustees shall have charge of the administration of the Santa Free Public Library and how shall have power and be required to. The first part of that section, there was a lot of conversation about administration. But before I go on, the easiest one is that the the state library recognizes the Santa Clara entity as the Santa Clara City Library, not the free public library. So that's actually our our legal name when it comes to the the California state.

Yeah.

So any checks we get, any any recognition we receive, that's the formal name. And so anything other than that is sort of out of order in terms of recognitions. So it's it's an older term. A lot of times, you know, as we had conversation, but you probably know this already, free was a very important word to put in front of a public library name because public libraries were not always free. And so that's why you still have Alameda Free Library. And Alameda County used to be Alameda County Free Library. And but a lot of times now, the free has been removed because it's sort of part of our our our policies. It's part of the state library ecosystem. So we wanna change that.

Very good. Abs absolutely in line with this charter project, right, is having things that the charter says match the reality and be consistent with flaws. And if you are particularly if you're seeking some sort of grant or support Right. Someone will look at not that they would. I'd hope they wouldn't, or we could explain around it, but I don't want anybody looking at the charter going, wait a minute. Who are you? You're this says you're that, and you're now applying as this, and that can create a a a problem. So very clear, easy change to make

Okay.

That I think that would would be well received.

And that was a a a observation. There's a couple spots in the charter where it doesn't say San Jose, like, we're gonna make sure they're good. He's saying all the spots.

Very good. Wherever

There's another, like Great. Go ahead. Right? Yeah. There's another section.

A a a lap one of the last stages of all of this will be conforming changes throughout, right, to everything that we make, including now I think there's a defined term section in the in the current chart that has, like, three or four defined terms. That's gonna be expanded direct dramatically, in order to facilitate people's review. Right. They can go back to a defined term sections at the end. This is a classic defined term.

Okay. So there was a lot of conversation about the word administration. And I think I think I might be so bold to say that there's parts of the board that actually really like that word Mhmm. Because of the authority and also importance that the that pertains to library operations. I explained what administration meant to me and the rest of the staff, and I think there there was a stronger understanding that administrative, for all intents and purposes for us, meant a day to day operations.

It meant care and feeding of the budget. It meant the higher and selection of staff. It meant many things that this board was not prepared nor interested in doing Mhmm. And saw that as strictly as library administrative work that belong to the city librarian and the team. Mhmm.

But I think there still is you know, I think the board can speak for themselves that they they take their position, I think, as guides and as individuals who feed into that information and very seriously. And they don't they didn't wanna lose, I think, or diminish the capacity for engaging with the library on those levels. Mhmm. Did I capture that?

Yes.

Yep. Okay. I don't know if you wanna add to that.

Yeah. So I I think one of the challenges really understanding what how how to define part of the role because in some sense, you know, an example I would use is just the simple the council manager form of government we we use. Right? Whereas in some sense, you know, the the city manager is responsible for all the daily administration of the city, but the the city council still gives feedback. And so how do you capture that sort of dynamic, you know, where, you know, the city library and and that administration is really the only city, but we wanna be able to have input into the policies. Mhmm. Directives. In a similar way, city also gives directions. Yeah. And I will I will

say to you that that that term administration, the city council doesn't even administrate the city.

Correct. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right? So in theory, this even goes be relative to the library system, common understandings of what this term means, and I think you described it accurately. And maybe that was the case back in 1950, you know, when when this charter was originally adopted. Right? That that could have been a very different that very definitely, it was a very different time, and there was more I mean, you know, the equivalent of this board, you know, back then perhaps was involved in some administration, but the the council doesn't even do that.

Right? The, and so it does make sense to recalibrate that, you know, in in some respect. For me, in thinking about it and and I'm I'm sorry. I'm gonna say something bold here. I don't even think you need to say that at all.

The next things that you're gonna talk about are the things that you care about. And if there's something missing in that that deleting the concept of administration, you know, removes for you, my suggestion would be we'll add something there. So in theory, for me, as I think about this, the board of library trustees with you know? And some language, this will be terrible. With respect to the Santa Clara City Library, right, with the the current proper name, shall have the power and be required to, right, just skip to what you have the power and be required to do.

What if those things are important to you? And those even, I think, I mean, we're we're getting to that, warrant some, you know, adjustment. But if the elimination of the concept administration eliminates something that's not otherwise listed here, I would suggest then I identify what that is. And maybe there isn't anything missing. Right?

Maybe these are the these things are pretty broad, you know, and and encapsulate that. So for me, I think cutting to the chase means getting these things, you know, the the next couple of things described, you know, correctly, the a, b, c, you know, and and and d, whatever you think, you know, makes sense of that. So that's just me from a structure of the language, you know, standpoint. Since you're not administering, don't say that you're administering, but say what you, you know, what you think you should be doing directly.

There's nothing really left to that sentence if we take out administration.

It's It really is just an introduction to the rule the other, you know Yeah. With respect to the properly named library. Right. You will have these following functions.

Yeah. Just struck of the administration. Does that still make sense for them? Or or or would it be also strike challenge?

I would be the city I I would make it in. We're we don't need to draft it all here. Right? But the idea would be the board of library trustees shall have the shall have power and be required to, and we'll get in the library there. Right? With respect to the library system, the board of library trustees shall have the power and be required to, bam, those next things, however you guys decide to curate those things. That's my just from a drafting standpoint, you know, suggestion. That makes sense.

Interesting.

Oh, yes. And maybe we can just give me a idea. Maybe we can just say, the library board of trustees shall have the power and be required to oversee the Santa Clara c library. This is an ID for a draft. I'm not sure. Do we still have our because I think we did talk about the word overseeing our previous conversation. Do we still have any notes tomorrow from our last meetings or prior conversation about this?

I don't see a receipt, but I can put the red line up if you'd for the red line.

Yeah. I yeah. I'd we could pull it up if you wanna see what the the change was.

We do. Does oversee mean?

That's what I I think it's kinda like

with administer is a more, broad term that's kind of hard to encompass all all the stuff that we do right now. It's flexible.

I was gonna ask that same question. What does what do you mean by oversee? Because I think it does risk a a beyond what you might think it means kind of interpretation. It is close to administer. It's not administer. Mister, I think, would up appear. But overseas suggest you know, are you overseeing the, you know, employee, you know, hiring and and and discipline administration? Are you overseeing, you know, the the, I don't know, other examples of of

It it it might make you know, do you make decisions pertaining to the fiscal ask of the budget? Mhmm. You can review, but I don't think you'll improve it as as such. I think council has that responsibility. Right?

So it's it's oversee normally means a a larger function in terms of firing, hiring, selecting, determining actually what we purchase. You know? I mean, overseas so for school librarians, I will tell you, overseas is actually a common phrase that they actually hear because in some cases, not in every case, but in many cases, the the school board decides on what they purchase, and they see that as an oversight of their ability of spending. And so I'm I'm sharing that that difference because that is clearly difference. You you don't say, oh, Patty, what do we have on the docket for for purchasing this month?

Because you don't want that responsibility of of looking at every title and deciding whether we order it or we don't order it. Right?

Well, I think the qualifications for a trustee would be much different if we were looking at that kind of stuff and going you know, having the responsibility. I

I think I think that's right. That's a good point or not. As I'm thinking and listening into it, I think about the fiscal, you know, implications of that as well. Like you said, for budget purposes or even for audit, you know, purposes, over oversight typically has that level of review. So I totally appreciate your thought process. Hey. If we're not gonna administer, we wanna have at least some general term for that, but I think oversee may have some of the some of some of the kind of residual broader than you intend implications about what you do?

No. Yeah. Think part of conversation was we were worried that a minister would was a bit too broad and might force us to do things that were not here already. But at the same time, we want it to go placement to be too specific or wanted because if it's too specific, then it might limit us too much or, again, it might force us to do things that we otherwise are not interested in doing.

I mean, either administration or overseeing to me are very similar. They're both doing administrative things. I mean, oversee is supervision.

Right.

Right? Mhmm.

And supervision is a really hard part of administration.

Yes. That is.

I mean, it's the furthest thing that we do. I mean, that's not what we do. So, yeah, I think I think I like the idea of just bypassing the administration part. I I do feel that we shouldn't muddy that whole section with the changing of the name. I think the changing of the name should be its own thing And because that has nothing really to do with anything else. That's just something we want to make sure it's consistent.

Mhmm.

Make sure that's separate. And then talk about this finely calibrated statement that says, if we take out administration, here are the things that are important to us. And, you know, one of the things is approve and approve the appointment of a librarian. That's that was kind of a lot of us thought that was very important. So it's right there. Right. So

So for discussion purposes, since we kind of gently agree that administration might be too lofty a word for the intent and purpose that you want to pursue, if we could kind of take Glen's idea and just kind of leave it as a clause that has yet to be finished with something, whatever we put in there. We know that the name has to change. You want administration out. Maybe there doesn't need to be something there, or maybe you wanna put an advisory, or maybe you wanna put guidance, or maybe you wanna do something else. But if we don't wanna necessarily talk about it right now except to say that administration maybe is supplanted with either something else or that we kind of roll that together a little bit.

I think the bigger clauses are the ones underneath that you wanna get to that actually are important to you. We know administration already is kind of a not, it's uncomfortable for you to to work with that word, and I think it is for us too. So if we could go on to maybe the second the onto a. Okay. Now the first thing it says is make and enforce such bylaws, rules, and regulations as it may deem necessary for the administration and protection of the city library.

Now I think you like part of that sentence, but I don't think you like all of it.

I don't think we wanna enforce you.

Okay. So that I know. It's it's the making it force part made you feel a little

You'd have to see your lawyer a lot more frequently. Do now. Most people try to avoid. Maybe

we can just drop the enforcement just go with make such bylaws, rules, and regulations as it deems necessary for so and so for the,

So I guess my question to you is, are you doing that now?

No. Oh, okay.

We can

be bylaws.

Bylaws. Yep. Right? But We don't enforce, but

we've made rules and regulations. We have a

Rules and regulations for the administration and protection of the city library?

I think you make I I think you make an we make an and you review and recommend policies and procedure.

I I guess it was in that like, what is what is what is the rule of regulation versus what is the procedure or policy or whatever. Right? Because, like, know, for example, we have our collection development policy that we

For I'm sorry. What policy?

Collection development policy, for example. Mhmm. The policy for challenging books, that was also And

we did some several policies this past year. Right? Our work with you on updating the new policies Mhmm. Of videotaping.

Videotaping. So, I think, policy around use of, like, community rooms.

But we didn't make the policy. We just popped up date policy.

Alright.

And then the ones that needed to go to council specifically

They got it.

They did they needed final council approval. And those might be considered in the rules and regulations file.

See, and that's what I'm thinking, right, is that I know you Patty has valued your input. You have to provide a lot of input on updating and developing kind of policies that you administer. But the more significant not more significant. The the the major rules regarding Uh-huh. Administration of the library are things that the council would typically approve.

So let me give you an example.

Remember

how we had a really great robust prior to certain members of the board being trustees being on board conversation about fines and how they were inequitable and they caused a lot of pain, and they they they made especially children feeling disadvantaged over other people, and we actually blocked people from getting service. Right? It was just very bad. Poor poor poor service. Right?

And then but we also decided to only do it for children at that time. That was before me. And then later on, I came back to you and said, well, don't we have the same problem that adults do? And begrudgingly, we came to that, but we did come to that. But you folks had to recommend it and approve, and then it had to go to counsel for adoption and approval.

And we couldn't have done it without council because that is actually a fiduciary responsibility that council has in order to make sure that we are fiscally sound. And they essentially said, you know what? It's not worth the $200,000 a year for us to prohibit the community as a whole from garnering library service. So they took you up on your recommendation. So you recommended and approved, and it went to council, though, for final iteration, for the final approval.

So I think, you know, it's a fine line, I think, Glenn. You know what mean? I Yeah. I think there's there's some things that the board has very most of the time, I think we're updating. But there are times when maybe there's come up a few times when you might say, oh, you know, we really need to refine this and and bring it. But those ones we would have brought forward to to counsel for final adoption.

Yeah. So in in thinking of a traditional advisory role on such things. Right. Instead of making in enforce what an advisory group would do, like parks and rec, like planning commission, at least with respect to major rules. They actually do have approval authority over specific projects, but over Right.

Rules and regulations. They provide recommendations to the city council Right. And your case, city library staff, right, where you are Right. Are, in fact, administering those those policies as what they as opposed to making and enforcing its providing recommendations to this council where it's a city council level authority and providing recommendations to to city staff.

So Yeah.

So Yeah. If that that would be general advisory, you know, rule. But if there are there are things that

Uh-huh.

Are policies that this group is making now, you know, and is important, you know, for you to continue to make, that could be something you identify and say, hey. But, no, we're gonna make, you know, this, you know, this rule and that. But the general advisory, you know, capacity for most, you know, boards and commissions of of this type is recommendations, you know, and and and and and advisory. And even a requirement that, you know, before a rule is changed, right, there needs to be solicited input, you know, from you, from from this from this group as a way of preserving, right, your standing in that regard because you might not be aware of the things that are changing, you know, that affect the thing you have a responsibility for. If the charter says they have to come to

you So

then the library director will have to bring those to you.

So I think if if if I could be so bold to give a suggest or an example of what Glenn might be talking about. Okay. So let's say and this has happened in some places that I've worked in even. Let's say that council says, you know, Patty Wong, how much money do we spend on nonlibrary residents? How many people come to your library that don't are not Santa Clarins? How much money are we spending there? Now I will tell the truth always, but that might lead to another question, which is, is library service available for all? Couldn't we try to make up some money from nonresidents? Okay. And my answer would be no.

Actually, it would bring the CLSA rules. And, actually, there's a policy above and beyond any of us that is at the state library level. And if we actually did that and charged nonresidents a fee for an interest for for I would have to forego any grants that we get from anything in the state library ever again or from other places, and we would lose our reputation. And then I would give them the example of our sister agency next door who made $600,000 in the first six months when they started charging, and they for they Santa Clara County, and they actually got rid of that as fast as they could because they lost so much credibility in the community by having to tell nonresidents that they were no longer welcome. Okay.

So so that's the kind of thing that we would demand probably that it come back to you for review because they might be considering it, but they should check it with you first because that's the whole thing. I mean, so that's an example of maybe one thing. It could be, which is why you have number d down there. Right? Where where council might say, oh, you know, this is our library.

We have every right to see the representative, doesn't it? And they that is not far from the truth of some other conversations that have happened in other jurisdictions, even in California. So I'm saying this out loud because I think that's an example of one thing that if counsel were driven in that direction, we would probably insist that changes like that come back to you for review and input. Salim, did you wanna say anything?

Oh, I was just I wanna say, I mean, the idea of taking something away, taking out a blue discipline and talk about instead, advice, recommend, you know, just more flavor that reflects reality. But the one thing that's missing there is one of the things I think I mean, I believe in on the board for a couple of years, year and a half maybe, is that they are involved in keeping things current. Right? Updating. That's a big part.

Like, this is old stuff. We have to do something about it, and we gotta change it. And we've got a set thing coming out of the state line. So that, I think, is something I think we pay close attention to. A lot of times you you come up with recommendations, say, here's something that work, and we say, oh, maybe it.

That that's not reflected here, I think, specifically. This this mechanism that Mhmm. Or this this thing, that machine that we go through to make make sure that the documents, though, or rules and regulations are current, and they're not they're that's not out there. I don't think. Maybe it is, but I don't see it.

So maybe in response to that, I might say that we've codified that in the strategic plan that we currently have. Right? I can't remember which section it's in, but it was to maintain and update the policies and procedures for all of the things that we do, and to keep to a timeline as opposed to

You mean within the live as a library staff?

As library staff. That that is an administrative to us. Right? Correct.

Okay. So that goes back to advisory and Right. Recommending.

So that I only wanted to say that, Salimah, as a way of saying that you're gonna see it anyway.

Yeah.

It it's put in our strategic plan as a must do. Yeah. Then it certainly comes back to you as as our, you know, our liaison with the rest of the community in terms of maintaining that.

So the challenge I see here is really about like, some of the stuff we talk about is, like, process. You know? Right. You know, there's processes to do updates, whatever. You know, that that's more of a execution that's not to be chartered, like, which, right, that is, you know, Paul, you know, what Paul's about. But I I guess my my biggest worry here is that I'm I'm concerned about the weakening. You know, for example, there are things that the city council has ultimate authority over, and Mhmm. And we're subject to their approval for some things. Right? And that that makes sense to me. Right? But I also worry that the the language around recommendation means that, we could suggest all we want to be ignored.

Right. And so That would be true.

That is what I don't

want Mhmm.

From my perspective. Right? I don't think we should get ignored. I would like us to be able to, like, you know, have a little stronger it's fine to recommend the city council because, ultimately, they make the decisions. Right? But for some of the other policies, you know, I'm not sure I want to say it's a recommendation. Right? You know, we could have a new board member, a new library, you know, library come in and decide that we're no longer gonna support the LGBTQ community. We're gonna strip all that, and they're gonna just go change it. We could say, don't do that because we believe that, you know, we and the diversity, and and there's like, nope. Sorry. Diversity's gone, right, because of who got hired. And we have no say to say that policy has this I mean, this is the opposite sort of case. Right? I agree.

Yep. And so I would I would hate to lose that authority, you know, if if there's some sort of policy that we want us up. Right? So, you know, that's just one example. But there could be, you know, a bunch of different ones where, you know, who knows where the administration's gonna go? Because this is not what our current administration's gonna do. You know? It is what the future people we don't know in the future fifty years from now, how is it gonna work. Right? And I I have no idea, like, what that's gonna look like. I don't know that Glenn I mean, if Glenn and Patty are both here in sixty years working at the library, that's amazing. I'm amazed that both of you are still at the city. Cute. But I also somehow you didn't retire, so I'm I feel bad for you. So and stuff like that.

Right? So I I I I don't know. That to me is is where if you go to the recommendation, it's really we lose something that we have today. Right? By making enforce maybe enforce is not the correct thing, but make is a very strong one. Right? That says, yes. We do get the decide what the policy is. And that's something I don't think I have to give up.

Yeah. I get that. There's there's a definite tension there. And you have it technically in the charter, but you don't really have it in real life. Right? Unless

So how to resolve that? I mean, then you can also now there's some question about how do we resolve that.

Right. Right. Which is hard which is hard for me to answer. Right? Because there there's other provisions, right, in the charter that talk about city council having dominion, you know, over certain processes. Right? Yep. That would probably, if push came to shove, be deemed as trumping. Excuse the trump. Yeah.

You you know, the authority that you all have Right. In order to make in order to make and enforce, right, you the the rules on it. So so that one that one's hard. And I get, of course, the interest and and and I'm aligned in that with with that. I I was thinking more of trying to preserve your right to input as opposed to right to decide.

And I think there are more traditional kind of benchmarked ways for you to preserve your right to provide input that are would need to be resuscitated here or built in here. And you gave a couple examples of major kind of policies that would have to come before this group, the library strategic plan, right Mhmm. Or any updated policy or procedure. And while in theory, you might be not be deciding that and making a recommendation, you would have this public meeting bully pulpit, right, in order to have a conversation about it and the ability to show up at council and, you know, and make, you know, your your opinions, you know, felt, not just individually, right, but if the board, you know, took a position on something to kinda communicate that. The other one that's missing here that I think that actually is sorry.

From me borrowing from the parks and recreation, you know, provisions.

That's what we yeah.

They have a provision in there. The most probably the most important decision that the council makes with respect to library is their budget. Parks and rec Mhmm. Gets to hear under the charter the budget first before it goes to the city council and, you know, and provide their input.

That's not one of the things

out there today. That doesn't even make it up later.

That's on the next. Day.

Oh, that's I'm sorry. I'm jumping. Maybe Jumping. I'm channeling you.

The other thing, I

think Glenn So that's kind of an an assurance of jurisdiction over things, but not necessarily decision making. Right? Right? The decision making parts

Mhmm.

I I get it, and I'm not and you you can recommend whatever you want in terms of what you wanna preserve. That one will be I don't know how to solve that, right, unless we're identifying certain things that you don't wanna, you know, surrender decision making authority with respect to. Yeah. And I'm sorry. You probably

No.

No. I talked over you.

No. No. No. It's okay. The the other thing this group also took a look at was even though it wasn't prescriptive, and you you had mentioned, I think, to the plan that you were looking at Anaheim. So they did take a look at the Anaheim chart, and they actually liked a couple of things in there that they wanted to bring over. So which is, I think, more to your point of if you know what you want, then be specific about what it is. Right?

Right.

And so one of them is a direct meeting with council once a year.

Oh, uh-huh.

Which is different from the dinners. It's different from the other things they just decided on. They actually want liked it so much that they wanted it included as as perhaps one of the things. Right? One of the items. And that would give you more connection with counsel in terms of relationship building about the things that are important to you.

Yeah.

Now it's not the same thing as make and enforce, for sure. And maybe you don't like the enforce part, but it is closer to the make part because you have more of a role directly with counsel in terms of presentation and etcetera. So as you recall, we had a hard time getting on the agenda for the update. Right? So or the work plan. So that's that's clearly if this goes, that won't happen anymore. Okay. She'll have a direct meeting.

For the case of the rule updates, what sort of things have to go to city council? What sort of things stopped when the library is going to?

I don't I don't know.

Lisa and Win and I are trying to kind of put them all in different baskets. They're trying to categorize. Because some of them like, for instance, the the collection development policy should have gone to council, but the state library did not require it. So we decided to kind of leave it as is and inform council that there were two things that were going on. One, we were updating it, and and they said fine. And then the other part was the updating of the reconsideration process. Right? So those that actually have major policy changes in what we collect and what we do, those are kind of the underlying pinnacles of what we do as a as an institution. Those are the ones that go. Now the smaller one actually, the free speech one, I think, did they go to?

I can't remember. The none the I don't think the tabling went. No.

Yeah. The tabling is part of library grounds.

Ribber library grounds, but did it go to council? The answer is

It

did not No. I don't think so.

There aren't that many actually that go to council. So we have Luis and Wynn have deemed and I include everybody in that because Luis started this process about reviewing all of the old ones. He actually I think he identified probably less than 10% that needed to go to council for approval. Mhmm. The big ones, yes, like the policies around collection, etcetera.

Anything having to do with the finances and fees, and frankly, that fiduciary responsibility, all of that has to go that way. We tell you about it, but, essentially, who makes the final decision about all of that is actually I mean, we need you to codify it, but that those ones go to counsel. But the rest of them are real really procedural. Yeah.

And then so the the reason I asked that question is, like, there's a set of stuff that ultimately is called to approval. And from that perspective, I think that I wanna make sure the board of libraries gets the is guaranteed to weigh in and give recommendation to counsel. That's fundamentally captured in the Charter. It's not one of the things. Right? And then there's a set of stuff that will never go to Console. Right? It'll just stop, and I wanna make sure that the borderline issues weighs in on that and is potentially the one who sets the policy there. Right? Because we could give recommendations, and then people can completely ignore us. You know, staff decides to ignore us. I I'm not saying staff today doesn't take our feedback bound, but, you know, since that in the future Mhmm. I would like who who knows what features that

would Yeah. You can't and

and and how how do you how do split this?

Right? Yeah. You should make rules around individual people. Exactly. Rules need to be made around the institution.

Correct. Yeah.

And so, like, how do we split those duties from these are the ones that we're advising on because there's a they they hire authority in the legislative 100% authority or whatever that's in charge of that, right, such as city council or state or whatever. And then what are the the policies and stuff that should come to us, and they just stop at us. That's it.

If I might be so bold to say that I think the issue really is bylaws, rules, and regulations pertain to a higher authority as as as a whole in terms of those classification?

So so that's what I'm asking.

How do we sets the policies and procedures that pertain to library operations. It's not made and enforced. It's actually more review and recommend. Right? And so that's that's actually I mean, that's how I might frame it if you were to ask me to differentiate the two. Because rules and regulations pertain to the you know, it's almost like the kingdom. Right? The kingdom and the city of Santa Clara. Those are rules and regulations. Right?

They pertain to our budgetary financial capacity, what we do as an institution. Our whole concept of intellectual freedom, that's not something I think that the board actually has authority to say. Oh, well, we're gonna you know, everything has to pass this meter test, right, kind of thing. The council, yes, they actually could do that. I don't think you would approve of that, but, anyway, I I don't know.

That's that's my reading of this. But I think the policies and procedures that pertain to the operations is more in line with the kind of engagement and support that we get from you in terms of guidance and review.

Yeah. So I I guess that's the question I'm trying to guess this is my my question for the attorneys to go and figure out the wording is to understand what are the what is meant by these different terms? Because, like, from my perspective, I'd like to craft it, like, okay. Things that city council we'd like to give input on, recommend, and whatever the things that city council must approve, let's have that. Right? And then there's the other policies, so you got Spawn involved in, and then I have, like, certain that have different language potentially for that. But I I don't know how you draw that one. Like, this this is all of interpretation of what is a rule, what is a bylaw, what is a regulation. I might interpret it different. Like, my my interpretation is different than that. Right? But I don't have same background. So this is this is the is there a, like, a legal definition? Right? And therefore, how does that go?

Yeah. And not really. I mean, I I

Policy versus the regulation. Think so. I'm saying, you

know, My layman's purpose. I honestly don't know there I think it's unique to the, you know, the the context and the and the decisions that are being made. So Yep. What that means for you might not be the same thing, you know, as it would mean in another area. Yeah.

I think that it's very interesting because, right, clearly, we're trying to transition what used to be a much more substantial role and responsibility for the board of library, you know, trustees into how, you know, they they the vast majority of them, you know, currently function with actual making and enforcing rules, including the making part, usually being something that's, in most cases, as it relates to something as prominent as the library, left to elected officials, right, that aren't appointed officials, but that are elected, right, and themselves are directly accountable. And so there's a lot of things, you know, swirling around you all, and I appreciate the way you're engaging it very thoughtfully of wanting to preserve a meaningful significant role even though you haven't exercised, you know, that role meaningfully for, you know, a lot of years, and that isn't a typical role to exercise. But there are very important roles and functions, and this group has provide had a lot of influence and input on these things over the years. And like you're saying, because there's been alignment, right, with kind of the ethos of this group, you know, and the ethos of the folks that are directing, we've kind of been counting on, hey.

The city council is gonna be elected by people that reflect the ethos of the community, and they're gonna appoint board of library, you know, directors that are gonna be consistent with the ethos of the community. And they're gonna hire a library director, right, who's gonna be consistent with the ethos, you know, of the director. And you're saying, hey. What if that's misaligned? I wanna be able to speak for the trees, if you will, you know, and be able to have some preserved, you know, authority over that. And that's a tricky thing to to to line up where it hasn't been working, you know, that that way. And it's kind of transcending an advisory. You know?

Something changes in the future. You know? Because, like the or something changes. Like, for people, like, for the library, we know that's one of the ones I add is to make sure that we are involved in the hiring of the the the the head librarian. Right? And that's Right. Maybe the librarian changes how they might evolve these after

you Yeah.

In the future. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. So then what what recourse is there if if there's a misalignment after? Like, I you know, everything's aligned on the one side, but, you know, things you you can't count on. I've learned well that whatever we thought people were doing today for administration, somebody can break all the norms and the rules and whatever. And if you don't have something that says this is how it works No. We have very live examples of that. Some broad examples about how that works. Yeah. It is.

Yeah. Like I said, I I didn't mean to to to say all what I said Yeah. By by suggesting that you can always count on that. Mhmm. But that is the nice situation at least around

We've

had high priority.

Yeah. Right? We've had some pretty great We've been very lucky. Of, you know, high quality, you know, leadership and support for an extraordinary library system. And you're figuring, like, hey. How can how can I be you know, have How do we ensure that you maintain, you know, the your your authority and ability to influence that? Totally get it. Yeah. That's why we're all struggling here with you with how to do it. Do you wanna do some further analysis maybe of that, or do you wanna keep going to the next one?

I think we should go to the next one because we've talked around yes. For this.

What if we send review and provide input on rules and regulations brought forward by the city librarian, something like that? Because that

Well, that's, you know I think that's similar, Debbie, to the words we were trying to use, like, about guidance Uh-huh. Review, recommend

Advise.

Advise. And it could be you know, I mean, this is all a collaborative process anyway, but it doesn't seem collaborative here. You know? I mean, when you really look at it, it's kinda going in one direction

Right.

To be honest. And so maybe that's really more what it needs to be is that guidance, the, you know, the care and feeding kind of thing of the of the policies and the procedures. Well, I don't know if you I mean, I'm hearing that you kinda don't wanna get rid of the tenor of the importance.

I was just thinking if we're gonna keep it, we should change it. Yeah.

Okay? No. You're those words are good words, and they should go in and and enhance kind of the not just recommendations, but, you know, provide review and input and guidance and and maybe the addition of things that no matter what, you get to see. Right. Because it doesn't even have that now. No. Right? And so even that is an enhancement. Exactly. Making sure you absolutely get the and this isn't a exhaustive list, but the library strategic plan. You know, any updated, you know, policies and procedures, the the annual budget. Right, that, you know

You can include all of

those things. You can include all of those things for purposes of providing, you know, that you your review input and guidance shall be solicited, right, with respect to

Right.

You know, general things. And no matter what, you get to see and provide make a recommendation on these major things. I think that's that is draftable. Mhmm. And it's the it's the thing that Jonathan's identified, mister chair, that I don't have a handle on yet as to how

How can we

ensure that? Exactly what, you

know, things we're talking about and how we preserve that particularly.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the thing is you can recommend up and down the ladder. But in the end, if they're not being taken seriously or completely ignored, then what is the point of this model Why here? Right? I think I think it's a good thing to struggle with and come up with something that works. I think

she's thrown away. And one reason I wanna mention that source, we have something in the charter is that, you know, we we had a lot of trouble with getting before council or getting suggestions, recommendations, like getting our work kind of moved, and we were being blocked by city administration. And so I really want sorry.

I'm No. No. It's been a bit of I was not aware. I'm just just reminiscent of it.

Make sure that we still point and say the charter says you have to give us a lot. Right? You have to like, this this is the rule that we can go decide.

Which is which is why I think that second

And administration changes. Right? Like, you know, we that's I think that's not gonna same anymore. But it has happened in the past, and that is why I'm being very pedantic about what it is we can say. Right? Yeah. I'm trying to put on the the future warrior hat, like, lawyer about what what will somebody do when I'm not here and all of the people that we we kind of are working together with have left and you know? Think people start throwing darts and, you know, everything else goes off. Right. Right. What is what

Totally hear that. And there and the the, you know, there is that frustration from time to time. And different boards have commissioned. Yes. Are why are we doing it?

The thing that is here that that I just did did not to be the downer, but just to, you know, just to remind maybe all of us of the practical reality of of this group even with the make and enforce, right, language in there. Mhmm. Council controls the budget, and council appoints the board the the board of library trustees. And so if the council had an idea, right, that was in the and came to a point they came to an idea that had a completely different philosophy, right, than the philosophy, luckily, they have we all have. Right?

It's all of us. But if they come to a different idea of that, they will appoint board of library trustee people in theory, right, that allow that align with their, you know, idea of that. And so there is a unless you're elected Yeah. Yeah. You know, directly, and even that, of course, is

an absurd thing. Isn't that council will go and change stuff? Like because to your like, council can always decide. I don't even know if there's a removal process. They can probably They can they can remove change. Right.

They can remove anyone on a majority vote. And, actually, that's one of the boards and commission group for a committee that they don't like, that they're trying to make sure that if there's some kind of removal that there needs to be some, you know, more transparent, you know, process for that. So that's under But but

but my concern is less about, like, inflicting with city council because they ultimately, they they have overall authority. Right. It it's it's it's it's about the this this for better or worse, the staff or the and the light of this administration of the city that that I'm more worried about. Right? The council we have to play there's stuff the council have to approve. That's why I said, like, we make recommendations to them. They ultimately approve. They can change all of us. Whatever. You know? There's no point trying to take their power. That's not what I'm interested in. Yeah. So make I do wanna make sure for policy that wouldn't go to them that the board, you know, what if we and and you said the librarian comes in and just ignores everything we suggest and just does their own thing after then what what do you know, that's that's where they that maybe doesn't go to city council. Right? They just don't send anything to city council.

At that point.

Right. Happened there. And that's that's my concern. It's those those policies. Right? It's not, you know, the the city council and say, we should let's do what goes to city council. We should recommend to them. Figure how to identify those. That's great. I'd like to see them and recommend and let city council

do that. Gonna check-in with the team because it's a long

We're dealing.

Delay. And I know that you wanna get through this part, right, through a through d. So if we could go to b, which I think is much more not lively, but I think we have some answers. So so there'll be some good suggestions about how to solve that. Which

is b

is to approve or disapprove the appointment of a librarian who shall be the department head. So I think we've written down everything that the board wants, but I think you're gonna have to be lively and talk about this also as well, which is the board wants to be included in the process in close collaboration with city administration. They took you had suggested to me maybe be more specific about how they wanna select. Mhmm. And so they actually said, oh, maybe we could specify the number of board members to participate in the selection process.

There was conversation about wanting the whole board to participate in the process, and that wasn't that all the board want members wanted to be on the interview process. I think that was the board wanted to sanction the the outcome. I think that's what I'm hearing. Yep. And then they had some they had come down to the idea of maybe two members of the board shall participate in the interview process, but involving all of the board participants in the final decision making.

Right.

Is that about right? But they wanted it codified so that it really happens how they as opposed to

Right. And this is one of

those prayer, benediction.

Yeah. This is one of those things that's been a conversation with every committee regarding every article of the chart is how much goes in the charter versus how much is implemented either by ordinance or by resolution or by policy. And this is getting pretty specific if it's gonna be that prescribed. And there are some charters, not ones we're modeling, you know, after that are incredibly specific. Right?

City of Pasadena's charter is over a 100 pages long, I think, that has a lot of details about all sorts of stuff that would be very hard to update if we were going, you know, through this process. And so you guys can be specific and recommend, you know, specific things. And so and and and so I'm not gonna tell you you can't do that. I will tell you that part of the tone and tenor of the process itself is the subcommittees themselves who have very specific ideas struggling themselves with, okay, how much of this goes into the charter because we're really updating the charter to make it consistent with best practices. We're not making new rules about the charter.

You guys are a little more uniquely situated, I think, in that you're in effect being asked and are accepting, you know, a process whereby a pretty old substantial authority to do something is now being modified. And what I'm hearing you say is if we're gonna modify it, I'm not gonna give it away because it's too valuable and too important role and function. So we wanna be very specific about how that works. If I were to give you a different version of this, it would be something more like, an agenda one. In consultation with the, city manager, participate in the process for the appointment of a live you know, of the library.

I was just gonna say something just like that. Just make it one sentence that the board will be involved with so on the appointment.

Yeah. And

go into all the how many

people and That's a version. Right? That that's mine is the most general possible version. Yours is more specific, and it could be even slightly in between, right, be included in the participation process, including at least one designated, you know, representative of the the board on the interview panel. Right?

As an as an in between, you know, example. Because then the administration of that, how you guys choose who's like, who you, right, and how that person responds back to you, how that's all coordinated, you know, with the city manager, would be left up to the administration of that. And the best practices and the details of that may change over time. Right? And don't necessarily need to be memorialized in the chart. But I don't wanna tell you what's important to you. Right? I get how the specifics of, you know, will be important. And if that's what you wanna recommend, you know, to the committee, then I get it. There's a justification for it.

Hey. We used to be able to approve or disapprove, you know, the the library director, which, you know, isn't how it works now. We'll be darned if we don't at least get, you know, some specific pardon?

That is how it works. Yeah. We we approved the final. If we because we we we

did do the one be

before too? I don't know. Don't know. I wasn't here.

You already know.

Yeah. Well, we won't

I don't think any of you were here

according to Lee.

No. Oh, yeah.

According to Lee,

you know what wasn't.

And when you approve can I can I ask a couple questions about that, if I may? It may be of you. When you approved the library director, what you weren't given the choice amongst library directors. You were given the final input on the library director. Do you remember? Yeah.

Steve was on the inter Steve, are. I'm sorry.

Me and another member of another trustee was given the responsibility, and we interviewed everybody, basically Wow. Yeah. In the second round. So we interviewed four or five people.

And was it were were you the interview panel, or was it in combination with other city staff?

In combination with other city staff. I got you. So We were the library trustee portion of the interview.

And this went to a library meeting where we voted. We talked to Patty as a group. Uh-huh. And They voted at when she left, and we had a vote, I'm glad

we went for it.

Yeah. And

if we'd said no, we would have gone back. They would have had to go back and find somebody else.

And they would have politely told me to go away.

We are. We're in that process.

And it's not about people.

And so and it's not about me. So, like, the the approve or disprove didn't set that process up. Right? But they gave us that final vote.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two

parts that we we thought were important was

Yeah.

The final vote, but also we wanna be involved earlier so that when you get to that vote, it's not just an opportunity. Right. You know, we have some input earlier on in the process. Right? We have some with the job description.

Oh, right. Yeah. I heard about that too. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of the qualification and certifications. Yeah.

Yeah. And so this is, one another one of those powers where it's yeah. It's not it's not about the it's it's about the process, and we don't want

And and we're the only ones. Right? Park The and rent commission doesn't approve the director of parks and rec or some of the other

I don't think anybody else does that.

Yes. We're Yeah. That's Yeah. Period. And I

think that's maybe relatively unique amongst your benchmark brothers and sisters throughout the state too. Not that it's doesn't exist. But Well,

I think that is true.

Happen if this group didn't like Gabby, but everybody else did? Would we or would our no be taken and or would the city council or whatever come back? The city manager your trial and

the charter would have been

Well Under the charter, if you were to assert your charter authority, it pretty clearly says approve or disapprove.

Right. It's pretty clear. Yeah.

The appointment of the librarian who shall be a department head. Yeah. Right.

So I think what you're hearing, though, if I could be so bold, is that they really don't want to give up this authority unless there's some provisions that they are still involved in the interview and selection process. So it's not just one thing to be on the interview process. I think they still want to be at least a piece of the selection process. Uh-huh. Now having said that, I think one of the things that Steve said is that there were four people. I mean, there were four votes eventually on the panel. Although, it did come back to this body for approval.

Approval. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, you get to that point. You know, it's all to the point where the body it's more of a formality. Right? I mean Right.

Well, I think that's kinda what

it's I think it was. I know. But, you know, it's the fact that this is the the final vote. The final say did come. So I think we want the least.

So am I am I hearing the, a consensus of this group to make to not only want, you know, a some level of understanding, if not specificity, in the involvement of the of the selection, of the interview process, but also a substantive determination over the final selection.

Yes.

Am I hearing that for the consensus of the group? Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

I don't feel qualified for that. I don't feel qualified to do that.

So you have cons I don't think you have unanimous consent.

Yeah. Not unanimous. Yeah.

Supposed to be self fitting.

But more but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. But a but a majority of you, I'm seeing I don't know. I'm assuming.

Right. This is a maturing. Right? Animity. Just need a I don't know.

Yeah. No. That's what I'm trying to get right. Okay. You well, majority of you acting and anonymity on a tricky issue like this would be would be hard. And and so

Yeah. That

So and so you I may recommend that within with that, you know, you take some float of, you know, of con concluding on this so that you've got clear direction, right, from an action of the of the the group on how to proceed with this. We might even wanna do it on each one of them, right, just to make sure there's

I don't mind giving a

hint and

saying Yeah. Quite think of someone, but I don't wanna be the one that says no. We're not gonna hire that person. I'd have to have a really, really good reason to say that. I just I'm not comfortable with that.

I mean, that's true. I mean, that that's the thing is you don't have a really good reason, and, hopefully, it never comes up Right. To the point you have to say no. But you never know. Right?

That's good. In all fairness, if you wanna be a candidate to be a trustee, you have to understand that's gonna be one of your jobs.

Yeah. Mhmm. It's like no. Right.

Okay. Shall we move on to c really quick? Okay. Accept into the library fund and administer money, personal property, or real estate donated to the city or otherwise acquired for library purposes subject to the approval of the city council. So this was on the second page about what they'd like to maintain.

But I think because it was a little nebulous about it was very broad. It didn't specify an amount or anything like that. They they they the team wasn't sure if they really wanted to vote on every single donation we received because currently, they don't. Okay. Could it mean more major gifts?

They might wanna give input on whether to accept or not accept, and they might wanna input on how that gift is distributed. But I think when you gave us some thought points about it originally to me. Right? Mhmm. You said, oh, well, maybe it's just for larger donations as opposed

to the day to day,

smaller thing. Right. Or and how I think the the team was a little bit at a quandary as to decide when does that look like. I mean, what kind of larger amounts are we talking about? Anything over a $100,000.

Right.

Do you think that it's a certain percentage of our current budget, whatever. You know, however you might decide what that looks like. You know, is it shares of stock? You know? I don't

know. Right.

We do have a mechanism already that the foundation normally gets most of the donations that come to the library. But once in a while, it's directly to the library, and so

we do bring it here.

I think we told you folks about the cuckoo clock. Right? The cuckoo cups, and that was one thing. It's a bequest normally. But most of the foundation most of the donations come directly to the foundation because people know where to to direct them. Or oftentimes, if it's a really small thing, we might just say, we're letting you know that the foundation's gonna take this on. Yeah. Yeah.

As our call, I think I think we discussed major gifts. Like, could we just say, except the library foundation, mister or not mister Biden, but just accepting the library fund, major gifts, something approved with the city council. And they and then the thing that deals with major gifts undefined, and then you could do all ordinance or policy for that. So that way

To identify what a major Wait.

If we ever put as soon as you put a number in there, it's obsolete within Right.

It is true. And we're wrestling with that too in a couple of different areas.

Or anything that's So I think that was the goal is to leave it up to council to decide what major gift would look like, and then they would weigh on that.

Yeah.

And then if there's a decision made already about the definition, then they don't have to worry about it.

So what I'm hearing is that, again, is that I'm assuming this is even for major gifts. Is it recommendation as opposed to determination of how those are used? I think it's recommendation. Let's guess. But So so revised language to because you're not administering. Right? In consultation, maybe with city library staff, make recommendations regarding

Right.

All of those things with respect to major gifts to the city that are earmarked for library purposes.

Right.

Something like that. Good. And that okay. I'm sorry. That's a that's the easiest one we've had so far. Yeah. Am I seeing consensus from the group on that approach?

Yeah. Okay.

I think so.

Okay.

Alright.

Okay.

Okay. Let's get through d, and then we'll talk about some of the other things you wanna add. How's that sound? Okay. So d, contract with school, county, or other governmental agencies to render or receive library services or facilities subject to the approval of city council, and they are not interested in that.

Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah.

I don't blame

you. Takes the onus of something that council might actually do for reals, but it's also not necessarily the best authority.

Yeah. I might even have an issue with that, you having that independent authority on behalf of the city because you

I think we talked about that. Yeah. And they don't they don't want that response.

One's easy.

Okay. So they want to write it down.

Too easy. They want us to write something.

Okay. So a couple of things they would like to maintain, which is they would like the job description for the city librarian and the qualifications reviewed. And I've already talked to I talked to Jovan. Uh-huh. I talked to Araceli. Talked to Marco. They are fine with making the changes more quickly. What we had decided is Araceli kind of shared that it would be better if it was done not within this process separately so that it it doesn't look like you know what I mean? So it doesn't look funny. That is something that needs to be done anyway, so she was going to help work on that separate from this process. But it I did inform the board that we are looking at that right now.

Mhmm.

And so in you know, I think as I've shared with you, the the words weren't changed to not the the word is may, not should. So the MQs are specifically, may have an MLS or something related. Whereas I explained to Araceli and everyone else, all of my staff have to have MLSs. And so for the director not to have the MLS doesn't make any fiscal physical

Uh-huh.

Cyclical sense at all. And so although I understand the premise behind it that you might want somebody that has an MBA and an MLS, the MLS and everything that is included in that is much more preferable as the as instead of preferred to be required.

So so I'm you know, I I think that's something, like, I that came up as, like, would like to give feedback into the job description. I how how much that needs to be in the charter versus being involved in hiring process is a perfect because that that's also gets back to our earlier discussion of hiring, which is, like, if if the city manager said, here's somebody with the LMS, we would've been no.

Right. Right. So yeah. So that's a fair point. So to the extent you're either providing input in or approving, right, you the heart of the qualification thing is subsumed within that

Correct.

If that's kind of a consensus of the group. And that could change over time. Right? That might not even be enough twenty years from now for years on emerging. Could something else. So you wouldn't wanna be so specific. The idea more is a process for providing input into that rather than

Which is why they kind of wanted to have some input in the job description because that is Yeah. Unfortunately or fortunately, it doesn't really matter at this point. That's not what happened. Yeah. The the job description was already completed before the process.

And I wouldn't necessarily say job description so much as job qualifications. Because job description is a

whole bunch of Right. Right.

It's a whole HR, you know, process. So

So that is something that that that came from Anaheim that they would like to include in that

b. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

It kinda goes with the the the whole fruit design system. So one of the specific things to do as part

That is

one of the things that that participating in the selection process will include Yeah. Is input into job qualifications. Okay?

Okay. And we're almost done. The last two things that the board discussed that they would like, partially, it came from Parks and Rec and then partially came from Anaheim, was, an annual formal reporting to city council. That came from Anaheim. And then the feedback and review of the library budget, which was in person.

Yep. I'm I I I get that one. That's a very logical one. Okay.

And then I think

that's it. Let me see if I can up. I think that'll have to get it. You just go back to the first page.

Yeah.

Up the other one. Yeah. We we talked okay. I think we talked about all these.

I think we went a, b, c, and

d. Yeah.

I think you're sort

of Jump briefly. Yeah.

So We're sort of I think in a quasi evaluate a little bit, but the make and enforce one. And so I think what I'm hearing from

And the question is how how to word that.

How to

word it. Yeah. I think we understand concepts. Properly reflect the city council's responsibilities versus And I do know, like, parks and rec starts with, I think, a note that's, like, you know, acting advisory committee capacity for all city council for all matters pertaining to parks, recreation, playgrounds, entertainment. I mean, even something broad like that to start with.

We're revising this. Oh, you are? Sorry.

I'm like, hey. No. It's a

good start. But but but only to make it more clear. Yeah. Right? And to and have it reflect. So we've kind of gone through a version of that, you know, here

today Okay.

About major things to provide input. So I get that. I hear that.

K.

Yeah. Hey, Patty. The budget. When you say we when we say we wanna review the budget, and that would be before it goes to city council.

And we actually do do that with you. Yeah. Yeah. What if

if we don't like something on the budget, what would happen?