City Council - Regular Meeting

some of the tax tax increase we just hit with maybe appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Is that tax appraisal tax rates that I should like look at the details. Okay. Any questions? No. Okay. So, the next three, Craig, in looking at this, I didn't know if we could wrap these into consent agenda items. If comfortable. Yeah. The only one you can't is the budget because it has the public hearing requirement, right? And that's that's not on our workshop. So workshop.

So that's good. That's good. So the first one I know we get here every year when we start looking at nominations. So resolution 2025- Yeah. So, they're just calling for nominations. You're not required to nominate anybody, but if you have somebody who would like to nominate, you can. They typically come back. When is it usually Misty? They come back want

usually sometime in October. They'll deliver the ballot. They have to be done before looks like December 15th. So, This is just the nominating process and every city gets a certain number of votes based on the total assessed value for the city. So I think we typically get 50 something votes whereas whereas Waco gets so yeah. So it's but you can't make a nomination but you're not required to. Michael Baker's not here to nominate anymore. Standard shoe in.

Do you have any recommendations thoughts on I know whoever if they get in it's quarterly meetings any quarterly. So Ben Perry also a county commissioner

Yes. Yeah. Some of these are elected official. You don't have to be an elected official to be on here but some of them are. And the appraisal board does not have any involvement in actually appraising properties. This board, what this board does is they set the budget. They hire the chief appraiser and things like that, but they don't actually hear um they don't hear disputes or challenges. They don't say, you know, appraise all the properties and produce them or whatever. They they don't have any authority to do that. They just kind of manage the budget, hire the director and things like that. policy for procedures and things

which could be important in hiring the right person because we know that Andrew is in Marlin for a reason. I'm just just saying he's not in anymore and I know that he's in county. So those those names. We've got to have those two names before October 15th. No, we don't have to. Right. No, you don't have to. But if you want and if you want to take some time, we can put this on the next agenda. I think it's what we've done in the past and we typically give them some time. Do they have a form or something they fill out or

Nobody's just we just say we're nominating this person. Yeah, we have the there's a resolution. It's this. We'll just put Oh, yeah. Okay. I saw I saw Anybody here want to be on it? Does anyone want additional time to come up with names. Does anybody know of anybody? I don't even know. Our votes a big breaker, you know. I don't know anybody to So would it be okay? Would that be good if we were to just move this to consent agenda items with not recommendations? No recommendations at this time. Sure.

I guess no. Excellent.

Okay. Uh workshop agenda four. Uh the renewal of employee health insurance plans and changes to the employer contribution for health benefit. I thought we were catching. Yeah. Right. Jeez. We need stone. I am somebody's just run me out of here in a minute. So, sorry guys. Like I told Miss I've had too much coffee on the way home from Houston and I'm like here. So, chill out for me. So, Craig, I'll let you take this.

Okay. So, here this time we come up for renewal. Um, the timing is always great. We usually get the actual removal rate about a week after we adopt the budget. So they give us they give us some preliminary numbers this year. They said they expected the average increase to be about 6% so we set it at 7 and a half. Um they came in at 10%. And so a little little background for those of you that are new on the council. So we offer two health insurance plans. We have a standard PO which is the typical you go to the doctor, you pay a copay. It has a a deductible in the out of pocket max and you have to use their doctors people.

No, you don't have to use they have to be doctors in the plan but the plan's pretty robust. Um it's pretty expensive plan though. So we also offer a high deductible HSA plan which is it's a lower cost per employee but it's also a lower cost for dependent. And what we do is the difference between the standard in the HSA plan is if it's just an individual employee, then they can put that difference in an HSA account to use to pay all their outenses. If they have a dependent, they can use that difference to pay for their dependent coverage. It covers what maybe 80% of the dependent coverage. So, it covers a good

most of the people are on HSA. We have a handful on the PO plan.

So, we typically go by So, the PO is going up 10%. So, we looked at initially the HSA plan is well within the amount budget even with the 10%. So we looked at the uh impact on the standard plan and we have so few employees on it we kind of calculated out what the difference would be per month and um originally we were going to propose staying with the current HSA and they gave us an alternate that was only a 7% increase for the PPL plan but once we started to look at the numbers and the monthly difference and I ran that analysis in here about budget costs. We have actually have even more positions open today since I wrote this last week. But uh we have enough open positions and the way our insurance works is once you like we hire you in October, your insurance effect until January. So there's enough savings in that first quarter to offset the increase for that handful employees. So we're recommending we just stay with the current plan. for that

and then you know if it was going to be something that was going to push us over budget but um even with the new rates I think we budgeted in the general fund 816,000 and it's projected before I we had another employee leave before that employee came into it um projected total cost for the general funds 814,000 so couple thousand under and then about 1,200 under and then for the utility fund it's a couple thousand below what the budget amount that and the reason we keep getting these bigger increases is our utilization year after year. Do cities ever combine like that is

a few years ago we got what 30% increase 35 35% a few years ago. Those of you in the council might remember that we came in and you all kind of met halfway. We not modified the plans and increased deductibles and things then we kind of split the difference. So we really weren't in that position this year. The biggest thing if we changed to the 7% increases those people on the PO their maximum out of pocket would have gone from 6,000 a year to 9,000 a year and we too much since it works within the existing budget as adopted that's crazy that so if y'all are comfortable with that you could move that consent. Sounds good.

Do all cities, most of the cities use DML. A lot of small cities do. I won't say most. A lot of cities do. Um, some bigger cities, you know, some of it has to do with how big your plan is, your group is, and things. some partially selfinsured. We tried that in my last city one time. That was a fiasco. We went back to prior. My last city was not on TML when I was there, but they're on TML now. So, but it's also a small city. It's about the size of us, but if those big cities were to jump in, that would help allevate. Yeah. And I don't know. Do you know any big cities are on TML or is it mainly smaller cities? I don't know.

Well, group of church is something that And I know for a fact that you got a lot more leverage when you have the people that the money is there. You just got a lot more. So the average increase across the whole plant was 6%. Yeah. Yeah. So but again our utilization this the past two years is 125%. Which is actually down because down couple years ago the two-year was like 159%.

We had a lot of claims over the last few years. Uh last item we can talk through from a workshop standpoint is discussions on municipal utility district or a public improvement district. This is just discussion purposes. So I think we can do that now or later. Yeah. I would just say I don't know if there's enough time to go through it now. So yeah. So what we've got is we have we have a somebody looking ing some land and they're wanting to look at one of these options and wanted to kind of gauge what the city's thoughts would be on it. We've never actually discussed it before. Okay.

So, we figured we would at least kind of make a presentation, let you know what pluses and minuses are of each type and see if it's something you're interested in. And we're looking at more generically property about it, but it's not necessarily something that oh gosh let's do it for this one but we want to make sure you all before we get into the details of what it what this project is we want you to understand what's the difference between the two so if they want to try to go forward you can understand that there are there are some there's some risks and benefits to it and there's some things where we give up control like a mud would be we'd be giving up control of those properties to the municipal utility district for that purpose so

feel like we got some thinking to do on that before we figed Before we get into discussion about actually doing one, it would be good to kind of start laying the groundwork so you all kind of understand the differences. I like the way you think. So you got consent, consent, no action, consent presentation, double check each week old teacher. Come on, man. Okay, we'll wrap this up and then at 6:30. Thank you so much, sir.

or small, right? Yeah. Imagine my surprise. Put you back on the promise. You know, okay, Misty's ready. So, I guess we are too. Okay.

Y'all guys ready? We are when you are. And being 6:30, we'll go ahead and call the meeting to order. Um, looks like we have a quorum. So if we all rise for the invocation Mr.

Okay, we begin in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit. Amen. Let us pray. God, you call us unto journeys where we cannot see the ending. Along paths we have not walked, through challenges we cannot predict. Give us faith to step forward with courage, trusting that your hand is leading us and your love is holding us. And Lord, bless the leaders of our land so that we may live in peace with one another and be a blessing to the nations around us. Help us tr trustworthy leaders, support wise decisions, and serve you faithfully in our own time. And Father, we pray that you would visit our homes and keep them safe from harm and danger. Grant that we may dwell together in peace under the care of your holy angels and share forever in your blessings. And God, we ask that you be with this council this evening as they meet. Grant them wisdom, guide their conversations, and make their time together fruitful and beneficial for all who live in this city. And father, we thank you and pray all these things in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

You'll remain standing. We'll do the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you all. Okay, roll call here. here. Here

moving on to citizen comments. Um for this agenda item, uh the city council invites citizens to address the council on any matter including items on the agenda except public hearings that are included on the agenda. Uh comments related to the public hearings will be heard when the public hearing starts. Please limit your comments to three minutes. The council is not permitted to take any action or discuss any item not listed on the agenda. When called, please or when called to speak, please state your name and address and if speaking on a specific agenda, state the item before beginning your comments. So, I only have one card. Brittney Ty, if you would like to come up, state your name and address for our record.

Britney Teley, I live at 370 Cavitt Court. All right. Okay, you guys, this is nerve-wracking. You know a lot. You're amongst family. You're fine.

Okay. So, um, as I said, my name is Britney Teley. Uh, my family and I moved here in October of 22, but we have been Rockets since 2016 when my kids started. Little Rockets here. Um, this has always been home, but it took a little bit for us to find a house. Uh, we absolutely love our neighborhood. So, any of you who have been a part of building Robinson, thank you. I appreciate it. Um, we're so happy to be here. Um, in June I was actually laid off from my job that I've had of eight years and started uh Waco Wildflower, a little lawn company. It's just me and a scrap metal trailer and a prayer if we're being honest. Um, it was just to supplement some income until I could find a new job so I didn't lose my husband and my kids' dad to overtime during the summer. Um, it has actually grown into something great. My kids have so much pride in it. They're they love it. We go by the yards that I mow and they point them out. It's amazing. Um, but day two of me mowing yards, uh, the calls started to the police. They were anonymous calls tagging my truck and trailer parked in the street in front of my house. Um, we don't know who was calling them in. Uh, but the police have stopped by multiple times before I was actually able to talk to someone about it. Originally, it was that the trailer, you know, the the information was given to me that you can't just have a standalone trailer. So, um, rather than taking my family on vacation, I bought a truck. Um, so then I had a truck and a trailer parked and it seemed like it was fine for a bit and the tag started and the police calls started again. Um, I was finally able to talk to a police officer and they'd said that it was being noted that it was abandoned in the street. Um, and it wasn't moving. So, I was moving it every day, but obviously parking in the same spot, trying to stay out of people's way. Um, so then I started, I don't know, leaving the trailer gate down,

moving the mowers out into my yard, things like that to make it obvious that it was moving, that it wasn't just sitting in the same spot. Um, but the tags kept coming this and then it was the trailer registration. So, like I said, it was a scrap metal trailer that we redid. So, um, we did need to get the title and everything done. We were waiting on a title transfer to get the inspection and tag done. So, spent the money, got all of that done, everything was legal. I really thought we were good to go and the tag started again and the calls started again. So, just um yesterday day before. I don't know. I told y'all I'm nervous now. Sorry. Um, a police officer came to the door and was talking with me. Um, and he just stated that basically the rules uh are vague enough that they are open to interpretation and that granted each officer has had their best intentions in trying to help me. Sorry.

Good. You're good. Go. Okay.

Had their best intentions to try to help me to figure out how to do this right. Um it's kind of it's just fallen and continued to be an issue. Um since all this has started, I actually did get a new job uh this today. Actually, I am lucky enough to have a friend who owns a business who's allowing me to park the truck and trailer there as of today. It is a short-term uh solve to the problem. I do want to keep Waco Wildflower going with my new job. I'm also supporting some elderly friends. I'm also a wife and a mom of three girls. Um, driving across town to go get the truck and trailer just isn't in my day. There's just not enough time keeping everything up in the air. I have so many plates spinning at this time that it's making it really difficult. Um, I do want to keep this business going. I know it's small and I know it seems somewhat insignificant, but it's really important to me that I have a place where my kids can earn money for themselves, um, can be productive, but also be able to prioritize their school and their friends and their sports like I wasn't able to. Um, and I just want them to know that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing. Right.

Right. So each cop has been great, but each solution has been answered with more issues. With everything being open to interpretation, it's been really difficult. Rather than being able to wait a year to get a truck that has like air conditioning and nice things like that, I'm rolling around in a 94 F250. So that's great. The air conditioning is very cool. Um, and we missed out on our family vacation. After all the countless hours that the police have spent at my house, after all the money that's been spent just trying to make things right, it seems like it still isn't. So, I'm just here to ask, how can I make this right? How can I do it the right way? How can I lead by example for my kids? Sure. Okay. Yep.

Appreciate that. Y, you're good. Your hard work isn't going unnoticed, by the way. Seen you in the neighborhood mowing. Yeah, saw another crew stop by to give you a high five because they noticed your hard work. So, keep it. Thank you. Yeah, they are they're very cool. They're actually out of Mills and anytime we see each other, we always stop. I bought them a Coke the other day. Thank you guys. We'll figure this out for you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Have a good night, guys. Thank you.

Okay. U moving on to the consent agenda items tonight. We have uh actually two items that were scheduled for consent and then we're going to move one as well. Uh the first consent agenda item is um is approving the the minutes from August 19th, 26 and September 2nd as written. Uh consent agenda item seven is regarding resolution 2025-010-R approving a tariff authorization on annual rate review mechanism as a substitution for the annual interim rate adjustment process with ATMs. Um and then we are going to move um regular agenda item number 10 um which that item we are recommending recommending approving the proposed TML health plan for the upcoming year. Um those agenda or those items are being removed or added to the consent agenda item. Um at this time, do any council members have any questions, comments, or removal uh for approval?

Make a motion that we approve the consent agenda items. I second. Okay. Um approving agenda items. All those in favor? I. Any oppose? Motion passes. Okay, moving on to regular agenda item number eight. This is a public hearing. Um the the public hearing uh is to conduct or is to take possible action on ordinance 2025-032 providing for amendments to the fiscal year 2024-2025 budget to reflect appropriation transfers as outlined in exhibit A of the ordinance. Craig, you want to give us a synopsis?

Sure. So this is um sort of an end of your year wrap-up just making some adjustments. Uh this item does not increase the overall budget. It actually decreases the overall budget a little bit but it does make interdep departmental transfers. Um there are some costs that came along that when we did the prior adjustments hadn't hit the books yet. Probably the biggest of those is the outsourcing the building inspections during the period of time when our building official position was open. Um that's a that's a very expensive proposition. And then we had some things uh just some examples. The amount that we budgeted for the appraisal district was about 23,000 under what we actually got build by the appraisal district. They're another one. They adopt our budget after we adopt our budget.

Yeah. So, so sometimes we're behind the curve on that. And um and then we did have some additional money to street maintenance. Um and then we had a miscommunication during the budget preparation last year where we had some pickups that were in the street department that when we did the budget, we believe they were paid off last fiscal year, but they were actually in this fiscal year. So, we had an additional 43,000 that was left out of the budget. And uh and then the other increase uh there's increase in the police department, increasing the overtime to a 115 by 115,000. That's to cover staffing shortages, but we had a significant reduction in police personnel costs due to open positions during the year. That was well over 200,000. So those those reductions um more than offset that increase. And then in the planning budget, we had an increase of uh 130,000 to increase for outsourcing building inspections through I think the billing through August was 71,000 they had build us for those outsourced inspections and we still have I guess it's through July the bills we received. So so that's pushing up to cover those costs and then we had some additional engineering costs. So couple of projects we waved permitting and inspection fees and everything. We had an in-house inspector and then we had to outsource that. So that's part of what pushed that cost up. So um we we account for that. But all of the uh all of the increases are offset by reductions. As I said, the amended budget actually decreases the total budget by $165. And um it amends the amount of expenditures over revenues from 102453 to848.

And then you have the detail below. There were also uh also reductions um in staffing for street department and planning due to open position. So like I said the final budget is offset. Everything is offset. It's just really moving it from different line items or different departments to balance out. So we don't have any departments to go over budget during the year. Correct. So, okay. And I'll be happy to answer any questions after the public hearing. Okay. So, since this is a public hearing, we're opening up to the public at 6:43. Is there anyone that wants to speak on or against this item? Can I ask a question?

Um, what is what does the 8710 to cover the budget for public health district? What does that what does that encompass? Can you explain what that is to me just so I understand? So we we contract with the public health district to provide the public health services they provide for our citizens. That includes the uh inspections of restaurants. It includes um things other health services and uh things that are available through the I guess it's the Waco Minty County Public Health District. I think I'm looking for the other I mean I get that they do the inspections on the restaurants and things but I think I was looking thing that they bring to the table. So,

you're the pro on that, Destiny. You're actually on the board. So, they do sewage inspections, right? Yeah, they Yeah, they do the off-site sewage inspections and then they also have like um disaster preparedness type things. If uh you know, if there's a disease outbreak, they do the monitoring, the reporting, all all the things that typically a a county level public health district does. just here in mcclennon county it's actually run by the city of Waco and then everybody participates and pays a lot of counties it's run through the county and the county picks up the full cost but here all the cities contribute their share based on their population

so that's that's that's also like you said the city of Waco so that also like includes McGregor and everybody yes everybody has a and we have a contract amount and the amount we put in the budget was below what the contracted amount was I'm not protesting I'm just trying to understand. Yeah, it's just it's it's it would for an example, I think our amount this year was what did it go up to this year? I've got it here in the budget. It's um pulled up the website if food handler and food manager handlet certification food established regulations.

And so the amount this year is for in the budget the amount uh is $46,39. It would cost us probably with benefits a h 100red,000 just to hire a health inspector to inspect the restaurant. So it it we come out definitely ahead by doing that. Yeah. I just trying to understand. I would do that for free. I' You would do it for do that. I'd go and check them out. I'd be like availability. Yeah. Yeah. I've got open on Tuesdays. So dy noted. Yeah. Dy noted to try them out. Means you get to go in the kitchen. Anything else?

All right. We'll close the public hearing at 6:46. Open up to the council. Any questions, thoughts, or motions? I'll make a motion to approve ordinance 2025-032 providing for amendments to the FY202425 budget to reflect appropriation transfers as outlined exhibit A ordinance. I'll second his motion. Okay. Um, all those in favor.

Any oppose? Okay. Motion passes. Um, agenda item number nine. This is possible action on resolution resolution 2025-11-R regarding nominations for the Mlennon County Appraisal District Board of Directors as part of our um uh workshop workshop that we uh um conducted at 6. Um, at this time we're not going to place any action on this agenda item. So, we will move to agenda item number 10. I'm sorry, agenda item number 11 as agenda item number 10 was part of the consent agenda items that were approved earlier. Okay. So, for this one, we will Yes, sir. I have five minutes. Oh, yeah. I do.

Went down the wrong way. I feel looking at him. Don't you hate that? Time to go to the bathroom and steal people's chocolates.

Yeah. around the corner.

Like I need it, but They do. They just I think we're ready to get started again. Um, Mr. Harold, um, will you give us some insight into these mud and pit projects, please?

Pro Tim Council, uh, this I have a nice discussion about mud and pits, municipal utility district and public improvement districts. And early August, we were the city was contacted by a residential developer and they were looking at developing a piece of land off Hoffmeer Lane about 200 acres. Um they wanted to see if we would be willing to create a special district in regards to that. Um wanted to get the input of the city and um basically this report will establish kind of a little discussion on the pits and the muds and The only thing to go into overview of what those are. A public improvement district is typically a geographical area established by the city. And what it does is provide specific type of improvements and maintenance. They're either financed by assessments or by a special tax for that air geographic area. Um, and it's on the property owners in that geographical area. Meanwhile, a MUD's a little bit different from that. It's a political subdivision of the state. So instead of a specialized district approved by council, mud is a political subdivision of the state. It's authorized by TCEQ and what it does is provide capital services such as water, sewer, drainage, similar to public improvement district. And it can provide non- capital services like fire protection if needed. And it's for a defined geographical area. And normally the they're f normally a mud is created to finance the improvements done to that area through a pay basically to pay off bonds through a separate tax entity or separate tax entity itself. Can we go ahead and project the I've got a within your packet I've got a actual kind of an overview of those two different criterias and I kind of want to go through a council and I fig I'd stomp and see if there's any questions or anything in regards to it. In a PID normally the property owners if it's more than 50% of all taxable

property for the property owners they'll petition the city to create this. A mud is a little bit different. They petition TCQ to create it. for the creation. Typically the council would approve those. They may appropriate a advisory board to help establish that PID. Normally that's through a feasibility plan done to see if the viability of that PID project. TCEQ normally what has to be done in an incity mud, which is what this could potentially be, would be an actual ordinance that you would approve as part of the TCEQ process to potentially establish that mud. And um it also provides additional information like your right to inspect any district improvements because any improvements within the mud is owned by the district versus a PID which could be owned by the city. Um basically the T if the TCQ were to approve this MUD there's a board of directors that runs it. It's not an advisory board like count like uh you could appoint by the count like you as the council could appoint. It's a board of directors that's appointed by TCQ which will eventually be turned over to a board of directors which oversees that mud. I don't if you guys have any questions in regards to this so far.

Sounds like with the mud city has less control less input less control. Sounds like with the P city would have more input control. Yes sir.

Um public notices basically you'd have to have a public hearing. Public notices go to the paper for a PID. The MUD basically is per TCQ requirements does require public hearings for it and notice to the paper to create the MUD approvals. Normally with a PID, the council has to make findings by resolution. Uh as the advisory to the to be able to indicate that this would be a viable PID. Um and normally that is conducted there's a feasibility study associated with that that tells the viability of the PID. cost associated with it, what would be assessed, that sort of thing. And normally a separate service and assessment plan is done with the pit. And you'd approve those by ordinance. And what the service plan is is what improvements are being done within the pit. Is is it going to be roads, water, sewer, that sort of thing? Or is it going to be and with or is it going to be other items or is it going to be like a public park, that sort of thing? And the assessment plan is how that PID is paid for if it's an assessment related PID because you can have a that's related to taxes. It's an additional tax on the land, but most newer developing PIDs are by assessment, similar to a MUD. Um, let's see here. Approvals for a MUD is basically by TCQ approval. They'll look for the ordinance the city has passed. You have to grant approval by ordinance within this full purpose limits, the city limits for any mud creations in your district. If the city had an ETJ, that would be a different story. But in this case, we don't have an ETJ. So, the city have to pass that ordinance in order for TCQ to consider creation of a MUD for that area. Um advisory body as I said earlier as the council you can appoint an advisory body to help you draft the feasibility plan for that PID. Uh MUD there's no advisory body basically. Um is there any questions in regards to

this so far? I don't know if anybody had any questions. Yeah, this is a lot. Yeah, I can tell you the PID it covers about 35 pages of state code and the muds are about 60. So, it's a lot of legislation. I mean, do we have any mud districts in already in our city? Uh, we don't have any mud. TCQ keeps a running list of MUDs. The only thing that we have related to a MUD is a water control improvement district. That's another type of political subdivision that's north of Waco. So, I don't think there's any muds in McLo County. Okay,

there is one PID and that's in downtown Waco. Now whether it's an assessment PID or a taxing PID, my experience with PIDs is normally newer developments like Greenfield sites or an assessing related PID. Anything that's developed is a taxing pit. It's an additional tax. So I don't know if the Waco one downtown is either one of those. More than likely, it's probably a taxing related PID. So can I just get to the Sure. What's the advantages of doing either one of these? Would we want to do any of these? That's my thing. The meats and potatoes. Well, I mean, the advantage to the developer is,

you know, whether it's the mud or the pit, the financing is done through bonding and paid to assessment. So, the the developer is not putting money up front or having to go out and borrow the money that they're on, you know, for the actual construction of the infrastructure and all the things that need to be. What's the impact to us as the city? Well, so normally the impact is by everybody in there, but with a pit, I am, my understanding is if for some reason they fall short on covering the debt, it falls back to the city and the mud the mud is on the hook for Yep.

I live in a mud district in Fort B and we had we had a certain little thing in our bill that was we paid mud each week and it paid our pools, our pool, our sidewalks, the typically it was like a HOA actually is what it was. Yeah. But typically when they first build it, you'll have a much larger payment because you're paying for all the infrastructure. And once that's paid off, then you have the maintenance portion of it. And so a lot of times it's for they'll do like utilities. Some places they'll actually do the water treatment, the wastewater treatment and everything. So what does that look like when it comes to seat street improvements like what we're dealing with now? So for the mud, the mud would build and own and maintain the streets.

So streets go bad. It's not our fault. It's the mud. They got their own tax over here off Karen and Christine and all that when they came in I'm talking about whether we would that was just private streets that was a private that was just a development private that development it wasn't created as a mud or a pit

typically muds have an assessment the max assessment they can do is $1 per $100 assessed valuation and in this county they can do that normally in city muds they tend to usually out of city muds tend to own the infrastructure and maintain it. But because usually incity muds have to have a lower tax rate to make it a viable project because of the additional city tax rate and everything they have to pay. Sometimes that mud can dedicate those improvements to the city and the city would maintain those with the understanding that the citizens of that area would pay off the assessments for the bonding of it. So it's really in the act there there are other options as well that can be considered. It's really related to the mud documents. What what does that mud have as authority? What has been granted authority and what can it do?

I have a question regarding what's your experience with these muds and their viability. Are they sustainable? Do they just pay for the infrastructure and then 20 years later it it it looks like junk because it didn't sustain itself. Well, with a it really depends on the project, the viability of the project. Um, as the city manager was saying, MUDs, there's less liability to the city because the city the bonding is all done through the mud. You've got the mud board and they may maintain the ownership.

Yeah, we I get that and that is more palatable than it did, but my thought is it's still a blight in your city if if they don't manage it well and people won't I mean, we'll be able to discern, hey, that's a that's the mud that's not us. And the question is, if I can say to add to what you're the question is uh what control do we have over what a mud does? It sounds like we have less control over the mud than the pit and or are we going to end up having to live with decisions the mud makes later that we didn't control now. I I don't like that.

But potentially it could fall in that avenue or it could deviate from that. And it just depends on the project, the mud, the mud documentation, how it's created and set up, and whether or not the city will take over the infrastructure, which is built, or they will maintain it for the set period of time that's needed. So, they're saying they can't do this unless they do a motor or a pit. They're not going to just do a regular development like any other. Normally, when these districts are proposed, normally that's that's usually how it goes. Um my experience now I can tell you my professional experience with muds and pids

in a previous employer in around Austin we did a had a thousand unit development that was a pit. So it was a thousand residential lots and that pit paid for they basically bonded for all the roads water sewer roads. They paid for an amenity center that was open to the public and a pool and some parks. And as they built those they they basically gave those over to the city for maintenance. And the PID was just an assessment related PID until the assess it stayed around to the assessments were paid off and then at the end of those assessments the PID would go away and of course the city owns all the infrastructure. I've had experience with another jurisdiction around the Austin area. They love muds and they a lot of our muds were ETJ. We had an ETJ. So they were ETJ muds and basically they were large developments that were thousand to 2,000 residential units commercial mixed in huge amounts of park space. We had a parkland ordinance. You had to create 33 acres of parkland on this one that we did and it was like a 2000 single family home development 150,000 square feet commercial and 600 dwelling units like apartments or condos.

Where was that David? Elgen Elgen Elgen has it. Don't you have to be 50,000 or more to have each that that was the law before. What is it now? How big does your city have to have to Why can't we Once incorporation occurs, you do a half mile and once it gets to a certain population, it keeps going up until you reach a five mile ETJ. Do we not as a city now qualify for ETJ? We gave ours up a long time ago. Cities can give up their ETJs. Oh wow. So So back on to the

How smart are the pit and muds for against them? They normally my my experience is normally muds and pids are for larger developments. Um for example mud we did an incity mud in Elgen where I worked at it was a 750 unit development single family homes and it helped us build an arterial road system through their development which was part of the requirements through their agreements they had to do. So normally it depends on the viability of it. Normally larger developments have more viability than smaller develments. That's been my experience so far. Can we re-qualify for an ETJ as a city? That's something I don't know. I'd like to know. That's more

Can we find that out? Craig that we could talk about it that there's a lot involved with that. It's not just I really there's court cases and all that involved. So, so my thoughts on on muds and sounds like the developer is through these processes are able to put less skin in the game in the development and the pit and the mud hold the risk the developer does not once he's sold all of his units that mud or pit is turned over to similar to how an HOA is turned over to the residents

normally what happens the mud because the mud has a board of directors and it functions as a political subdivision there's less overall risk to the city versus a PID which is all city related control normally what happens in MUDS is once the assessments are paid off through the taxes that charge to the residents that mud normally goes away usually after about 30 or 40 years. And my experience of course we don't have an ETJ but normally in ETJs the city will annex that entire mud under state law they have to annex the whole thing and then what will happen is that mud goes away they will annex it if there's still any debt left or if it's you know there's they'll assess a fee on that to pay off the debt but they'll take over all the infrastructure and maintain it at that time if it was not provided to them earlier. A pig will eventually go away. um I think it's 20 or 30 years but or it has to be renewed every 20 or 30 years basically because it can assess a tax on it or it could have additional assessments on it. So it really

what's your experience like when it comes to that turnover? Have the roads been un you know unmaintained for 20 30 years and you're you're you're now looking at wait we got to reclaim some roads we got to do some major investments. Well, the mudboard, if they still own the roads, they have to maintain them as their systems unless they go bankrupt. Can a mud go bankrupt? It could. There couldn't be negative consequenc. So, if that happens, then let me just clarify. We'd we'd be responsible. I question that because it's if it's a mud board, then the mud's a political subdivision of the state. They would be to me responsible because they're a political subdivision of the state. Also, the mud eventually elects a mud board. They do. Yeah. Yes. So in a mud the people that live in the mud elect their

mud board. It's like a city. Yeah. They function like a city council and and they don't have they can be set up for different. First city I worked for a city of Denver we had a mud that did water and sewer. That's all they did. The whole city the city had no water and sewer. It was municipal utility district and they had their own separate elected board from the city council and they did their own thing. They maintained all the sew and water but their their objectives didn't always align with the cities. the city was very progrowth and they were very we don't want to spend money to expand infrastructure and so but then you have some where yeah but they typically have their own elected and then they pay whatever fees now if it's in city they still pay city taxes too they would pay city taxes

and then they're going to pay on top of that the mud is the mud taxes school taxes county taxes just residents in that area because I went back to my I went back to my old place that we lived in in we first got married in the 90s and it looked exactly the same. So, so basically I mean exactly the people who buy these homes should theoretically be paying less for the purchase amount of the home because all developers finance theoretically our mud went down each year. Each year we did it our mud was down just like a dollar or something.

Well, I'm just thinking, you know, $400,000 house in a mud should be less because you still got to pay the infrastructure tab. So instead of a normal development, the cost of that road developer put in the sewer and all that is tied into that purchase price. So, but all you're doing is just putting it in a different bucket. It's really I see no develop I see no benefit to a home buyer. Uh I see only thing I think is that you can developer benefits. We're basically paid for the pool and the trails in the park. Yeah. There's amenities that can be paid for with the mud and paid for with the pit that a city may not necessarily want to do.

I like that idea. Yeah, I typ typically as you saying usually muds and pits seem to be up in the Dallas for metroplex. Most of the muds up there are more utility driven. They don't necessarily do like you were doing in there may be an area adjacent to the city and ETJ and they don't have water and sewer infrastructure and they'll form a mud because they don't want to be annexed by the city but they want those water, you know, that water and sewer service at that level. So they'll create a mud that'll do that and then sometimes they panic. Sometimes they they stand alone and sometimes you get them and they become like their own city and they you know they'll have their own fire department and like Sun City city within the city.

What bothers me is the fact that by establish an e the city's on the hook for the initial development and construction costs with the hope that they will fully sell these units and make a fully viable project. And if it doesn't happen that everything comes to fruition, then they're stuck. Well, not on the mud. I don't think the mud would that wouldn't be the case with the mud. Now, the PID. Yeah. Typically in the PID, there's an assessment or a tax like you said,

whoever owns the property at the time. So, if a developer comes in and he he develops it and he sells off 20%, he owns 80%. He's going to have to make that assessment payment each year until he sells those properties off. Yes. Now, if he defaults, that's where the city would then have to pick it up. the city's already established and paid for the utilities and whatever Yeah. whatever infrastructure has to be put in there. That bill has already been paid. Yeah. Well, in the city again, the developer typically builds it. It's usually you're entering an agreement with the developer and all that and the bonds are structured as when the bonds are sold, they're structured as public district bonds. But yeah, there is some liability to the city there. Are they subject to city ordinances for building codes?

Yes. They have they have to get everything approved through us. Through you through us and they still pay city tax. So police and fire services are still I don't foresee a mud establishing a fire department. That would be very actually there was one up in the metroplex. The uh they can city that trophy club. Trophy club had the city that did their police and everything else. They had a mud that was their utilities and their fire department. Money money. Do most builders uh like this like having like would they is this preferred for it's not so much the builders developers

because the developer whether it's a pit or a mud they can actually pay for the improvements themselves the mud board or the city council through the bid authorizes the taking out of the bonds to pay back that developer and that that assessment or tax goes toward the people in that district to pay off those those kind those bonds in this case. Does the mud have the ability to build houses or only to develop the land and sell it to builders or individuals? The mud only has the authority to do infrastructure improvements like water, sewer, roads, drain and fire department. Correct. Development only.

And the and mud also has the unique ability it can enforce covenants and restrictions and deed restrictions as well on so that city can't do that. The mudboards can a lot of times usually my experience with mudboards it's in the ETJ they do this because there's no zoning and they have to put their uses and everything on the platter in the CCRs and this potential development would be several hundred homes. Uh it's 200. It's it's the lot's 200 acres I understand would be a couple hundred. I don't have the exact amount, but

yeah, there's there's several large ponds and then there's also some uh flood plane and flood waters. Yeah, it's not it's not as big as you typically see. And a lot of times you typically, as David said, a lot of times when you do see, especially a pit, a lot of times you're going to see more of a a mixed use or you're going to want some kind of amenities or, you know, maybe clubhouse, clubhouse, pools, parks. Um, you may have linear parks, you know, if you have creeks or something with trails. You said some of that stuff is also open to the public.

It is because the mudboard in a mud, the mudboard owns the infrastructure or they'll it over to the city to own and just you know for us to maintain it in a PID the city owns it anyways because it's constructed is the PID's just to pay back the assessments so it would be public related property yes I can tell you my previous experience in Lago Vista one of our uh we had a park system but it was a private park system only for people that live in certain parts of the city so newer developments couldn't access this park system one of the pins what the pit did is it created a park system in that development for the people in there to use and have access to Lake Travis as I got a question. Do we have any other Do you know any other places this developer has developed? I I don't know any other additional information

because that'd be kind of nice to look and see what they've done in the past. Yeah, this particular group, they have a lot of properties. Um I think they're more they acquire the properties and then market them to developers. And I think they were just wanting to know if that's something we would consider allowing when they try to market it. I don't think the folks that reached out to us, I get the impression they're not actually developers. I get that impression as well. I think they're they're flippers. They buy the property and then they they go in and they find out what the city will allow and they put together a package and they go out and try to find developers. For me, I I there's a lot of verification that I I would like to see before we even consider action.

Well, I don't think anywhere we're at the point right now is do, you know, do we tell them yes, it's we're not going to go and say sure, you got your PID, they're going to have to go through the whole process and they're going to have to do the feasibility and all the other do we even want to go that far? Yeah. Before I'd even say I'm for considering I I need to know a lot more for me. I I'm I'm can be flippant about this and just say, "Oh, yeah, that's sounds like a great idea." There's a lot of like we, you know, we really have to verify that this company is legitimate and financially sound. At this point, we're not talking about a company. We're just talking about generally if a developer, if a developer came in here and said, "I've got a thousand acres I want to buy and I want to do a mixeduse pit

that will have some commercial and some amenities and all that." that do we tell them yes our council's interested and we're willing to look at potentially doing a PID with all these things you have to do or do we say we don't do pits so I mean that's kind of where we are right now is pit something you'll even consider or do you want to say we're not comfortable what do you think is prudent I think it's something we should consider well so to point Mr. Harold Mr.

do you think we as a city are in a position or at at that point in time to say, "Yeah, we should consider this and here are the pros for this that we need to do." Or do we think that we're still at that point in time where this really isn't necessary for our city where we're at today or there's too many cons two vehicles that that we should kind of shy away from? Too many unanswered questions for us to say, "Okay, don't spend a lot of money and and give us a presentation about what you're because they're going to spend money to prove this up to us and we're not going to be easy to just say, "Oh, yeah, that sounds good."

I mean, there's a lot of work to No, there and we even you even get your bond advisors and all those people involved in this. So, what are your thoughts? I would say I'd like to hear your answer. I'll speak for you. I'm saying I'm close to a presentation. I'm just saying interested in it.

Well, the point we're trying to make tonight is something you're going to entertain because if we tell somebody yes it's something the council will entertain they will spend a lot of money to put it together but if if it's like well even if you spend a lot of money and put it together we're not going to do it we don't want to necessarily lead anybody on now me personally I think in the right circumstances pits have potentials I'm not a big fan of muds in cities because I'm familiar with some muds up in the metroplex that it was a constant

priorities get different now this is kind of a self-contained where it's just this one little neighborhood where I told you the city I first city I worked for they the mud stifled growth I mean they couldn't issue any more building permits because the water system didn't have the capacity and so for 10 years there was no growth in the city because the the mud locked the doors there's another reason we won't but this mud but this mud is so what my point being is is I'm not a big fan of the muds and I think sticking a mud in the city you get the conflict between the city and It's just the mud board. There can be conflict

and and those people in the mud are paying city taxes, but they're also paying mud taxes and the city may have certain different priorities than the mud board. If I understand, they're just paying for their infrastructure in that neighborhood. They still got to pay the water bill and the sewer bill because they still got That's where I'm How does How does a mud construct on that? Would the mud meter it or would the mud I guess they could do it either way. The mud could do what the city does. It can meter out individually to houses or it could do a master meter. I mean it can utility set up similar to the city of Robinson or any other city. We can't I mean we got certain conditions where we can't under our bonds we can't resell our water. And also

so there's kind there's all kinds of things but yeah there's those kind of things in a mud that would get into I think there's more complexities in a mud. You have an example like we have a water ordinance where we can't water on certain days but the buzz Oh yeah you can. Yeah. There's too much positives and negativeity about it. So is there even a need for a pit for a 200 acre lot development? Say that again Jeremy. So this is a 200 acre potential development. Is it even necessary to would you even entertain a hit for a 200? Is this acreage for sale already? They got a deal on it or they can make a deal on it. It's for sale. This is just kind of have it under contract. It seemed like a hypothetical at this point for sure. Isn't it all hypothetical?

Yeah, it is. Yeah, very much so. So, I mean I I would say Britney based on that. There's a whole lot more I need to know for me to say yes. We're not asking you anything tonight. We're just asking you would you consider a mud or a pit if someone brought one in here? Right. Because you can say no. We It's their money. Sure. If they want to spend the money, why not with it? But but I still I still need one simple answer. I I think I heard I'm going to read through that of y'all probably you two's personal opinions is I wouldn't suggest a mud. Would you suggest a pit?

In the right circumstances, a pit could be very beneficial. I don't know that is that you felt the same because I don't think you got your certainly the case, but I don't know that you want to slam the door on on So we're not I'm not saying that I'm not But I'm not saying hey you go spend a lot of money opportunities for a lot but this may not be that one. It may not we'd have to see a lot more. So I think you know the the question is do we

what I don't want to do is say oh yeah we'll consider a pit and then you know say well no absolutely you know we don't want to bring it in and you say we don't want to do this. So that's why we kind of want to see or you open the door to consider a pit. We're not asking you to prove a pit and again there's a whole lot of work has to be done. Again, I don't even think these guys are going to do anything. I think they're going to market it that a pit is potential if we say we would. Okay. But they don't have skin in the game. I don't like that. They're basically coming to us with this hypothetical. Would y'all consider that? And then try to

make us feel obligated to go through this kind of thing. I don't want that. Is saying correct? I'm not I'm not saying that you're saying we're obligated, but I don't like it so far. I'm just based on the potential problems that it could cause our city in the lack of control, maybe a pit. I'm just saying my opinion and I'm one out of seven people here. So I I would say to them if I were telling them I'd say, "Yeah, but we got a lot of reservations and a lot of questions are going to need to be answered before we go for before." But I would listen I would listen to a kid to see what they'd say. Yeah. Kids in the Austin area off the top of your head. Any specific kids? Sure. wherever in the Austin area

uh to Sarah and Lake Travis Pid and uh Lago Vista. Um I don't know all the names. Leander is kind of the capital of pins in the area. There's tons of them. Austin does a lot of them too. They also do a lot of Austin does a lot of muds too. Um I'm sorry. Doesn't venture have a uh no I think it's point I think it's a mud. I think it is. It's a it's a water control improvement district which is similar. I know up in the metroplex there's some places where they did I mean there's some of them where they did I can get you know 10,000 acres and it's the whole thing is you got residential components you got commercial components you got

multif family you got amenities you got all this different stuff and they phase it and they issue the bonds as they go through the phase is that what like Sun City is Sun City is oh you mean in Georgetown I I don't know all the the specifics I know Williamson has a has a ton of muds. It could be a mud. Yeah, because it's like its own little town within a town. I want to live there when I I know Williamson County has like 30 different muds. I think that may be one of them. But I know PID like for example I think George I think downtown Georgetown Georgetown has a PID. A lot of downtown areas tend to do PIDs too, but those are the tax psid charge you additional tax. Waco has it for example. Yeah. um to do other improvements that are outside of the city's

we're not we're just wanting to introduce the concept to you tonight. We're not even asking you to say we you know pretty good with the PID.

You know, you you can all definitely get online and research public improvement district in Texas and it will pop up all kinds of good stuff. But we want to just introduce the concepts to you tonight because we kind of told these guys, you know, we didn't know if our council would it's something they would even entertain talking about. So that's kind of where we're at is, you know, So, so could we be at a position to say, "Okay, great. Tonight was an introductory lesson on hidden muds, right? We we break from tonight. We do our own internal research, contact you or Mr. for any additional questions. Maybe read throw back on the agenda as follow-up questions, discussions, and we could potentially provide you with guidance on

and that's why we did because we told them that we probably could have an answer for them by mid-occtober. Okay. So, anticipated we know it's a lot to throw at you in new concept, but but it is both are fairly common economic development tools. Yes. And there are some benefits to developer saying, "Well, you know, I don't have any skin in the game. I can get by." Because they're still their goal is to make money. They're going to make money off the deal. But one of the things that is an advantage to a developer is they get interest rates comparable to what the city gets on the investment versus when they invest, they're paying much higher interest rates.

And getting why does the pit or the mud allow them to get low? Well, for the PID because it's basically the it's debt issued through the city. It's tax exempt. So, you're not paying income tax on the investors are not paying income tax on the revenue they make when they buy those bonds. So, they pay a lower interest like the bonds we just issued.

You know, we got a lower interest rate than the standard market for commercial loans because commercial loans pay higher. You know, first of all, commercial companies, there's more risk. If you go out and buy bonds from a commercial company, you have more risk and you have to pay taxes on it. So, you expect a much higher interest rate. So, you might be, you know, they might be paying 6% interest whereas we're paying, you know, 4.3% interest because you don't have to pay taxes on the interest and we're considered we've got that.

We're backed by we're backed by the ability to tax for the money. But with the with the PID, the assessment is, you know, those people. Now, the downside is if you live in the PID, you're paying a higher either a higher tax rate or you're paying in addition to your property taxes, your assessment. Yeah. But you have an assessment on Yeah. They choose to do that. But always people that move into a mud, they sign paperwork saying they live in a mud and they'll have a sign. The state of Texas requires a white background, black lettering sign. is you know m it'll say whatever the mud district name is and it says this is a political subdivision in the state of Texas so you know you're in a mud

pits they make the develop they make people that move into a pit sign paperwork but they don't have the sign for example there's things that are that you know so people know that they live in those districts from the paperwork and their taxes assuming they did the paperwork we're already and they'll know their taxes most definitely we're be taxing people to death. We hear that all the time. Yeah. But this is choose to live in that. And there's going to be brand new home buyers that are choosing. They're going to know like, "Oh, I got to pay this." Well, it's not always a tax. It can be an assessment. Yes. You know, it's just this is your share of the infrastructure cost and it's going to be built over 20 years. And every, you know, every year for 20 years, you're going to pay an extra $2,000. If I had cool amenities, I'd do it.

Because you're paying one way or the other. You're either going to pay it in the cost of your house when you buy it and then we're going to tax that anyway, or you're going to pay it Yeah, I'm I'm just thinking of in the mud scenario 30 years down the road and you know what does the quality of that look like? What's that the infrastructure look like? Well, usually I mean most muds tend to be pretty well taken care of. Again, the mudboard is elected by the people that live in the mud. I'm saying my whole reason it looks exactly they have elections and everything probably better than most neighborhoods because somebody's monitoring them.

Yeah. The people there want those extra amenities. They're picking that neighborhood because they want a neighborhood that has a clubhouse and a pool. I know it's not apples. I'm just thinking among the states which is asking for help now because yeah do it right. area. They just they just put private streets in. So that

so sort of a summary synopsis to me would be one. Do you two recommend it? If so, what apparently you brought it to us because you you think it could be a viable thing for our city. It seems to me like maybe a pit could a neighborhood like Ry was saying, uh there are people that want to pay more because they get more amenities. That could that could be a potential to upgrade an area in our city. It could be. So, I'm I'm definitely not, nor have I meant to say that I'm not for it at all. At this point, I'm not because of my lack of knowledge. And you guys seem to still have questions about it and haven't ironed it out either. Do you know what I mean? So, I think we're a long I am a long way away from saying, "Yeah, I would want them to spend some money to to uh to prove it up." I mean, maybe in the next several meetings or something like that, but I can't say by midocctober. I mean, that's a month that be ready to say, "Yeah, bring us a You know what? I I don't know. I don't know about you guys, but that's just where I'm at on it. I got a lot more to learn about this before I for my city because I

get you a lot of information to read." Yeah. Good. Well, and I'd like for you to read it and tell me what you think,

you know what I mean? Because I'm not a full-time, you know, person in this position, you know. So, we're relying on you and you, David, you know, to advise us, you know, and y'all do a great job, but I me for me, I've got a limited amount of time I can spend pouring over pages, volumes of of documents to decide whether we're going to do this or that. I do a lot of homework already in what I do and I take it very seriously and that's why I'm answering you or posing these questions to you. But I'm I'm personally a long way away from saying, "Yeah, I'd be willing to do that." That's all I'll say. You know, when I think of development options in different directions is a pretty good thing. And I like the fact that there are options that we can consider on a case-bycase basis when they are brought before us. If we just totally disregard and say, "No, it can't be done." And that just kind of button holes us into a into a a system that we cannot show any flexibility by at least considering proposals from different developers for specific site usages. It gives us the opportunity to really determine how we want it done and how we want it financed and developed. And I think by by allowing not so much a mud but a pit option gives us that chance and that choice.

Yeah, agreed. I know this sounds really weird, but these 200 houses are going to be on Hoffmire and that's one of the streets we're going to redo. We've been thinking if we do this, do we need to plan that street differently or Well, it's not 200 houses. It's 200 acres. They It's sight restricted by three ponds and flood plane. We don't know how many offices 200 acres. I'm saying would you plan your Hoffmeister Hoffmeer Lane different? We're getting ahead of ourselves. I'm just think No, I'm think I'm thinking way out there. I'm sorry. That's a good thought. We're about to redo it.

The muds that we dealt with and when I worked in Elgen because we have TIA standards now in our subdivision and site development codes, they have to do a TIA, they have to do all this stuff. Um, mudboards and even the PID ones, they can actually if they have to build certain improvements like right turn lane and larger road, okay, they can do that with those those options. And for example, we had a uh with our muds, we had County Line Road, which was the Travis Bassrop County line in our city. Well, part of those developments were in our ETJ and part were in the city. Well, in order for County Line Road couldn't, we were trying to widen that from a two-lane country road to a four-lane urban road with center turn lanes and that sort of thing, right turn lanes. They were we were widening that in phases, but we needed a new road system a half a mile away that could tie in. All this ties in the 290, which is the main road that goes if you go west, you go into Austin basically to 35. And like we have this other road system here that goes into this subdivision with a traffic light. Man, it would be nice if we could put an arterial that ties off of that and goes up through the backsides of these developments. they were all next to each other uh and create this four-lane road system that could get, you know, get us the get us the additional road we need. So county line road wasn't carrying all the capacity for the developments and some of the muds that were created in the ETJ in the city in those agreements they agreed to build the road system

you know so they built us a four-lane urban standard landscape street lighting sidewalks and the mud paid for that

because it was necessary for to offset the traffic improvements and all that stuff for the development that was coming in as part of that mud um because some of them were in the ETJ we do what we call strategic partnership agreements which are a little bit extra you can do and we said hey you're going to build this four-lane road 100 you're going to have 110 foot wide rightway you're going to build this road light poles these standards here you'll agree to this and as part of that mud they agreed to all that stuff and they built these road systems and slowly in Elgen you'll get a new road system that goes up two miles to basically the edge of our development now so it'll be a whole new road system to accommodate all those developments so there's creative things that can be done buds and kids.

Well, I think me personally, kind of love what you're saying, I think we need to have options, but at the same time, based upon, and I I still haven't gotten a clear answer, but that's fine. Based upon y'all's opinions, I would hope y'all would at one point come to us and say, "You know what? A PID would make sense in a 300 plus acre development or 500 acre plus acre development or whatever." Or if one of you two came to us saying, "We have an opportunity, I like that word,

to do XYZ, but in order to do so and to facilitate that, we would need a pit or a mud, which is new guys. Let's talk about that." That is y'all pushing it to us because of an opportunity we have as a city versus a developer wanting to just

come up to us with an an ideal ingenuity or or something to say, hey, I I could do something with I don't want that. I'm looking for opportunities for our city. So once again, I'm this is just I'm just one of seven. I'm still just waiting to hear from either one of y'all to say, "Hey guys, we we really should think about this. Now, it may not be this development, and if that's the case, I want to hear that, too. I would want if that's the case and y'all really think pits and muds are a great thing, I'd say, you know what, it's good, but it needs to be at least 500 acres for it to be really beneficial. So, that's that's where I stand. I still think maybe we need to get educated on it 100% because this may fall back into our lab or it may want to be something we do to bring in and kind of um you know

impress some some new developments coming in. Well, and and this is definitely outside the box, and that's what we're kind of trying to do tonight is open the box because Yeah. I mean, we're not going to have a a meeting next month to come in and say, "Here's PID or MUD. Are you willing to develop it?" And, you know, there's feasibility studies there. Like I said, you get your I don't know on the MUDs, but I know on PIDs like specialized government finance who does our bond stuff, they would actually be involved in that. They they do PIDs, they do PID bonds and they have the staff to do the assessment and the feasibility to look at the feasibility and see do these numbers make sense and all that. So there's a whole lot of stuff goes into that process. All we're just, you know, trying to do is open the door so you can start thinking about it because last we want to do is start down this road and then you know council's approach be well no that's we just we're not gonna we're not even going to consider something

we would never just come in and say here's a pit we'll throw it at the wall and see if it sticks we'll do all that but like I said we want to introduce the topic because we don't want the first time we have a discussion about a pit or a mud be we're trying we've got a pit or a mud coming forward and we need to know what your thoughts are and you say absolutely not and these folks have spent a bunch of money down that road. That's why I said I'm open to listening for me as Jeremy said and I said earlier to settle. I'm for listening to anything that might help our city. But I'm a long way away from saying, "Yeah, tell those guys to go spend a lot of money and then we'll think about it." I'm not there yet. I would say I would tell them not to spend any money. Fine. We'll educate.

I have to make the decision tonight. I'm saying tell them they better not spend any money till I get decision at one time. It's going to be a whole lot. I'm not saying make a decision about doing it, Craig. I'm saying I need to before they go spend a bunch of money, if I was them, I would make sure that this city council that me on it and whoever else on the city council doesn't understand has a clear enough understanding to even make a decision about right now. I don't personally, this is the first I've heard of it and I don't know much about it and you guys need need more information, too. So, that's just what I'm saying. If I was them, I wouldn't spend much until we as a council get educated to the point where we feel comfortable going forward with that's all I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

So, what do we need to do? But that's just me. That's just me. This was that was it. This discussion and see what you're talking about. I'm just saying I would not tell them to you you said you're going to go back to them and say, "Oh, will we consider it?" Yes. But I'm saying tell them I wouldn't spend a lot of money yet because we've had a lot more discussion and learning. If it's something y'all are going to consider, anyone comes in and says, "Are y'all would y'all be willing to do a PID?" The response to them is going to be it would depend on the PID and in the right circumstances, yes, but that's any city is going to say that. But there are some cities that say, "No, we're not interested in doing I get it."

Or if you were to ask me yesterday, I would have said, "What is a pit in a mud?" So look at us. Right. That's the whole point. Look at the ground to introduce you to the topic. So, yeah, we're we're not we're not anywhere. We're not asking for commitments or anything. We're just saying that these are out here. They're coming at you. We'll try to get a little bit more. Maybe we can get a few examples of a couple of kids. We can do that. We could tour one. Jimmy, any closing remarks? I concur with your thoughts. So, and and what Craig just said is, you know, we'll consider Yeah, it's like those were on the council when we first started talking about we started like you have to have tool

this is just another set of tools for the school. Yeah, we didn't even know what a tur was for sure. Yeah, I get it. And so don't misinterpret me. I'm not saying I'm close-minded at all. I'm for anything that'll help develop our city that's, you know, legit. Well, I guess that's the main thing we're wanting to know. more you openminded to in the right circumstance to consider it with the condition that if I were them I wouldn't spend a lot of money until we get a lot till we get a lot more educated but if they they do what they want to do if they want to go spend a lot of money and come try to prove it I'm not going to tell them not to do it but yeah I'm open to listening and we are I think I am I'll just speak for me I'm open to consider that right all right let's there it is you both

repeat that let's talk about it more on the next meeting I'm all All right, let's move to agenda item number 12. This will be for mayor and council member updates and requests for items to be placed on future agendas. Um, you have anything, Mr. Rogers? Mr. Rogers? Nothing for me?

Oh, I do have something I would like to say. I would like to something else. Correct. Imagine that I have something else to say. I want to give uh some kudos and accommodation to our street department. Um I had a situation at near my home on a property that I own at the corner of Baker and Kim uh Saturday night a week ago and uh a tree literally fell off that property completely covering the road hit my truck in the process as I was just trying to trim a few short limbs that seem to be drooping. Unbeknownst to me, the whole tree was falling. And like I should have known that, right? No, from the root. And so I'm thinking this limb, this big limb that hung over Kim Lane was just dripping. And we've had a lot of rain, etc. A lot of leaves. I didn't know. And and as I was trimming the neighbors, kids go, "The tree is falling." So I got out

Oh. without us having a funeral this week for one of our council members uh alive because of my truck. The limb literally crushed the passenger side of my bed truck bed. If it had hit the cabin would total my truck and it's 10 grand of damage by the way. But all right. So where it is Charlie? Where'd you do your notes, buddy? wrangled. Moses wrangled. He's been with the city maybe 10 or 15 years, I think.

Give him a raise. Moses came out because what happened was I had to call the police. I said, "Hey, the road is blocked. I don't want anybody to to run into this tree. Please send a police officer." And they did. They sent Palmer, my buddy Trevor came out and he said, "By the way, Charlie," he said, "This is covering the entire, you know, lane." So, the city has a road crew. And so, they called, they just had one guy that was available. my guy and I helped him till 1 in the morning. And this was on Saturday night, a week ago. Poor guy. We we me my guy that works with me a lot. And then him uh Wrangle

got it out of the road and got it clear, you know, so traffic could go through. But I just want to say thank you that you all responded that night. Didn't wait till Monday. It was Saturday night because it was 8:00. I had a funeral that afternoon. I couldn't get to it until later. So I was out just trying to trim it so people could drive under it. Little did I know the whole tree was falling, which it did. I'm glad it didn't fall anybody walking. We have a lot of walkers, including our superintendent, Michael Hope, and others that walk, you know, under it all the time and cars that drive. And I'm so glad nobody was injured. Yes.

Glad it fell on the road, not on the house. A lot of blessings there. But I just want to say thank you to the city for sending someone out that night. Didn't wait till Monday. You know, it got done. I didn't have to do it all, you know, myself. So, I was I'm grateful. We'll pass that on to his supervisor. Please do. He does good work. Moses, all those guys do good. But start from the top. And y'all y'all promote that kind of ideology to be helpful to our citizens. And and I've noticed that especially with Greg's Department Water. He does a great job. His employees do. So want to be careful to be thankful and to to tell you when y'all are doing a great job because I know you hear all the negatives from

occasionally. But every now and then that's a really good thing, right? That was a great thing for me. It's a blessing to me not to have to be out there at 7 years old myself cleaning that tree out at night. So that was a blessing. Thank you'all. Thank you. That's it. I mean, you're here for the the dog toy thing, right? Sorry, I didn't behind you. Right. So, do we need to put put that on the the agenda? I need to get back with her. Just it's been budget time. We've been bogged down, but I need to get with you on my I know. So,

I can't believe that was on the top of his list. Like budget. I mean, why was that up front of that healthcare? I can't believe in it would have pushed it up on the agenda for sure. Do you have anything? Yeah, hang on. I don't have anything. All right, then we'll adjourn at 7:41. Thank y'all.