Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

Okay, good evening everybody. It is 5:02 p.m. in the Beautiful Life Celebration Center. Thank you so much for hosting this event for us. It is Thursday, April 16th. You can sit back a little. Let's at 5:02 p.m. And we're going to start with a roll Jimmy Greg Julian St. Louis. Fantastic. And as you're going to do pledge of allegiance the other way. You're plucked in front. Okay.

I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America to the republic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

And can we have all our veterans in the room please stand? THANK you for our freedom and your service. Hey, our next meeting is actually going to be on Wednesday, April 22nd. Uh it will be our regular council meeting at the Lashley Community Railway and we're going to wait for public comment until after we actually start the presentation. We think it might be a little bit easier for you to have better comments once you're once you're here. So once we get started, Boy, are you going to start with the Okay. Uh when you go to make your public comments, we're going to have you go over to the microphone over on this side. Okay. Thank you.

Good evening. Boyd Lawrence, planning director comes through. Okay. I'm just going to give a brief uh introduction, a little bit of background as to why we're here now uh discussing land development regulations. Then after me, Rachel Barry, our zoning official, will give some more background detail on the zoning districts. We also have a team from uh regional planning councils of both Central and uh Southwest Florida here. they're going to support uh and provide some more information about uh you know the zoning districts and building form and what what density looks like depending on the type of building. So hopefully we can work towards uh making the amendments we need to the comprehensive plan and land development regulations. Okay, this is background and timeline. Many people that have been here probably know I had to research this being relatively new but in 2019 planta was implemented or approved becomes the foundation for the update of the city comprehensive plan and the land development regulations updated the comprehensive plan in the LDR begins first comprehensive plan started then there was a an effort to do them both simultaneously by the consultants that were hired uh 2023 the plan and uh comprehensive plan in 2045 and the LDRs approved by the city council pending approval by the state and then on March 29th both the plan and the land development regulations went into effect. Um then in 2025 they were repealed July 9th that was just last year by city council. There were concerns about Senate Bill 180, which is legislation by the state. Uh it's concerned about restrictions on

permitting and development due to the hurricanes. So there were some elements that could have been more restricted. Now the prior LDRs from 2005 were reinstated. So since that time, uh, staff have picked up some from the public meetings and from the public some of the concerns that were with the, uh, the repealed LDRs, even though they were deemed compliant with uh, the comprehensive plan that was approved. There were some concerns about building height in some of the districts, residential densities in the downtown waterfront area, specifically from the the hospital to the uh fisherman's village, that area was allowing more density. Downtown parking's been discussed frequently. You know, there's been talk about making parking lots as a primary use. There's some business owners down town that may have a property across the street that they can develop this parking lot to support their business. Of course, we talked about environmental storm water open space requirements, the impervious pvious requirements. We saw the uh workshop last night from giving the horns and stolen works about storm water management and historic preservation technique's unique character. So the comprehensive plan establishes a policy framework for height density and land development regulations implement these policies. Under the Florida statute, all land development regulations must be consistent with any adopted comprehensive plan. That's kind of what we're going to try to work at for this meeting and perhaps another workshop opportunity. This is an example from the future land use element of the comprehensive plan. It's the first section of the the comprehensive plan. These policies start I think around page 65 of the future

landing set. But this is basically the the foundation of uh our densities and why the 2024 LDRs reflect what they did. You can see these two districts uh was borrowing 25 units and then 30 to 50 with mitigation that they're providing a parking or open space uh for the public. So this these are just two examples and then the other ones again starts at 25. Currently we're at 15. The repealed max the repeal uh or the reinstated zoning ordinance allows for 15 areas. Okay. The recommendations we have the heightened residential issues need to be resolved to identify the necessary policy modification for amending the comprehensive plan. Then amend the land development regulations to ensure consistency with the comprehensive plan that's required by state statute. We believe staff that the 2024 land development regulations would be the most efficient to work with. we could modify those heights and densities that satisfactory to the public and the council and then amending that for consistency with the comprehensive plan. That's all I had. I'll turn it over to Rachel who has more in-depth knowledge on the zoning district. Good evening, council. Good evening all. Rachel Barry, zoning official for the record. Um, if you all attended the workshop in February 2025, the next few slides are going to be a condensed version of a lot of those visuals um that were part of that uh presentation.

And so really the major changes that happened between the change of codes uh really just happened in the downtown area. All of the areas that you see on the map now are outside of what was referred to as the traditional clinagorta area. And if you look at the second row, you'll see each one says same for the most part. So nothing really changed in those districts as far as uh density. Now, as far as height, uh the neighborhood center district did away with a minimum requirement um but kept the maximum height the same. Um, and so currently now back in effect, there is a minimum height requirement of 26 feet in the neighborhood center district for the building heights. The area shown now was previously known as a downtown core and generally has the properties that are zone city center. Uh, the city center district as far as density allows a 2:1 ratio of commercial to residential. Uh before it was a base density of 25 uh with up to 30 and the maximum height allowance did not change. It stayed at 50 ft max but it allowed four stories within that total height and did not require a minimum height. Um but again we're back to city center. So the minimum height requirement is 26 ft. Jump too far. All right. So the areas here are generally the village center district and are now neighborhood center. So we are back to 15 dwelling units per acre. Um where the previous code that was repealed was a base density of 25. There was no change in the maximum height but we do again now have a minimum height of 26 ft.

the areas here covered a bit more zoning designations. It wasn't a straight zone for zone necessarily. Um and so in these areas that are currently shown in pink and bold on the map. Um some of them are now zone city center. Some went back to neighborhood center. Um down towards the bottom of the map is highway commercial. Now, uh, neighborhood residential 15 keeps in line with the orang-ish colors. Um, so now that we are back at those, the city center 50 ft max, some neighborhood center 35 max, highway commercial 35 max, and neighborhood residential 15 40 max. These areas generally change from residential edge back to neighborhood residential 15. So they have a current base density of 15 dwelling units an acre and a maximum height of 40 feet. The traditional residential went back to the neighborhood residential 10 which allows 10 residential units per acre instead of 25 and again the height is the same maximum height. The uh the repeal code also touched on missing middle type housing. Uh there was a lot of information in that code that talked about building forms um and not necessarily permitted uses but more so how does that building interact with its surroundings and there were provisions there for missing middle type housing. Um in essence covers anything between single family home and large apartment complex. There were also options for development mitigation. it did get a bit detailed. Um, and so we won't go too far into those because that that is something that we would need to work through if if that goes back into the code, but it was an option for developers to request

additional hydro density if they were to give it's a give give. So you give us public parking, public open space, um additional parking and potentially you get additional density if you know you can meet the agreements and uh get the get the agreements approved. That mitigation was limited to three underlying zoning districts and two excuse me overlay districts. Any property more or less less than a half acre was not eligible. Um most of the properties that are not shaded out the I guess I don't know if most are developed um but there are several properties in there large properties that are already developed if so at this point in time if the code was to go back into place they would not be going for the develop mitigation. There was only two building types that allowed for development mitigation and neither one of them were considered missing middle housing. So to get the additional um increases, you had to have a certain type of building that had, you know, a mixture of uses with retail and office space and residential um in order to qualify. This is a map of the medical overlay district. Um it virtually did not change from the form base code to what is now back into effect. Um it covers all of the area everywhere you know around Olympia and Marian uh from Cooper to Milus. Uh right now the maximum height is at 60 ft uh in the medical overlay district. Um again there are currently no mitigation options. And when it comes to density it is either going to be

it's it's you've got to put her hand down. It will either be a 4:1 ratio of commercial to residential or 15 dwelling units per acre and the residential is pointed on the upper floors only. The waterfront overlay outline did change. Uh the picture on the top is no longer in effect. The picture on the bottom is now, but it's back into effect. And all of those green areas are some public or environmental preserve. Uh so those properties are not intended for future development. Um there is no additional increase in height in the waterfront overlay. Um but it allows residential density in mixed use building if it is if the residential aspect is 50% or less of the total square footage. And these were just some quick examples of building height. Um the building height is actually measured from base quad elevation. So often times the building height does not stop. It starts until you're about 6 feet in the air and then that's where the building height is measured from because buildings have to be lifted outside of the flood zone. So the technical height of this building is about 53 ft. Uh this apartment or condo building the approximate height is about 68 ft. And then we have the justice center. The building itself is approximately 76 feet tall. And then you have the 40 foot exclusion added to the top um which make it just over 100 ft overall. And that is all we have as far as that rehab. And I'll just flip through these slides very

quickly. Um, this map here is showing the current city center district. Um, again, the building height is 50 ft, allows up to four stories. Now, conceptually, um, if you were to have 25 to 30 dwelling units an acre, um, that could potentially fit within a 50t height, uh, fourstory building. And then we have neighborhood center currently at 15 dwelling units an acre with an overall 35 ft in height. Uh, conceptual standards, no increase in height of a potential of 25 to 30 units an acre. We have our neighborhood residential 15 and that 15 of course is your base density 15 units an acre. Max height 40 ft and conceptual um standards there would be no increase in height and a potential increase in the residential density. And in neighborhood 10 of course 10 units per acre 35 ft in height. No increase in height but a potential increase in the dwelling units per acre. Lastly, we have highway commercial. The maximum height is 35 ft. Um the density conceptually potentially 25 units an acre and no increase in height. And that is all we have as far as the uh PowerPoint goes. And so we are available for questions.

Deb likes I I wish this would have been handed to us before tonight sitting down here. This that would have been really nice that we could have made our notes so we could discuss in what this what this is. I don't think we should be comparing justice in our government centers we don't compare to.

I'm sorry. our government centers, we're not supposed to compare our stuff to a government center. And plus, when you're looking at height, that's just the clock tower. That's not the whole type whole height of the building. And I think sometimes people are comparing to the justice center, but when you look at it, if it was against the street, it would have a whole different height look than how far back it is. So sometimes comparing it, people look at that and go, "Oh, the justice center doesn't look bad." But stand next to it and look up and then see what the difference is. And I'm thinking the I was I never say that of the condo complex, the Del Soul one. Um wasn't that kind of a a variance that was in that neighborhood? So I don't think there's anything else in that area that even looks at that height that is similar to it at all.

I'm not aware of a variance, but I can double check. Yes.

So, I'd like to understand where we're going tonight. Um, I' I've looked at the two LDRs page by page all the way through and I've done a comparison and identified where the changes were made. There are 19 articles in the regul in the regulations. Article 19 is just definitions that were pulled from throughout the old version all into one article. I don't think we need to waste any time with that. There were five other articles that are word for word identical from the old to the new. Unless there's something in those articles that we didn't like, I don't think we need to spend a lot of time with that. And then there were five more that had a lot of changes. But largely the difference between the 2022 version and the 2024 version was a modernization and an update and an improvement even in formatting. It's much more readable the 2024 versus 2022. So my proposal is there are three it's article three article 7 and article 8 that had the wholesale changes article 3 brought in formbbased code and created the traditional pontagora zone changed it modernized it from the way it was done in the past and that's where the majority of the issues that we had were with height density city, reduced setbacks, and reduced parking. Those are the things I would like to work on, focus on. I I'm hoping the rest of the council will be agreeable to

reading everything that we were not opposed to so that we can focus on what needs to be fixed and move forward in a much more expeditious way. Great. I don't disagree with you, but there actually are changes in every single one. Almost almost identical. Like the concept is identical, but I agree the repealed ones for most of the other articles are more well written. It's easier to follow. So, it's got a great concept with it. But I still think overall, I think some of the chapters we can go, yeah, this is pretty quick. This is pretty quick. I think for most of us, it is article 3 that's going to be the most difficult. And article 7 is also the one that has a lot of information in it. But four and five have changes. Six also has six had a lot of stuff eliminated that I think needs to be kept in there as well.

So I wasn't quite done. Um

there are areas that we've identified. When we met with the executives at at um Ab that medical overlay made no sense compared to where they built hospitals and other locations and so forth. So that's something we need to really take a look at and probably doesn't even need to be there anymore because it's a flood zone where the hospital the emergency room is going to be built and eventually hopefully a hospital that's probably where it needs to be. Um landscaping we need to look at um what's allowable for um you know ground cover and things like that. And there are some other areas that need some improvement. I've run into an issue with the car wash on 41 and what the regulation provides for aims the jets on the drying jets right at the residential area behind it and those people are really really upset and um we need to figure that out better. Um and then forbased code there's a lot of discussion about that. It it brings in um appearances that blend into the community, but it cost developers more money. So, there's the give and take on on that. There are plenty of things. Um in the waterfront overlay, we've all mentioned that in the 2022 version, it talked about environmental protection. 2024 left that out entirely and says intensive development. Well, I think we need to bring the environmental protection part back. Um, so yeah, there's certainly things that are good and bad and in in both, but I it's my hope that we can agree to read everything we were not opposed to and focus on those changes we need to make.

So, I think we're in the same, but I think what we need to do is maybe bring it back by sections and say everybody have, you know, one council meeting. Let's do one and two. Does this section, this section look good? approve that so we know we're ready to go whenever the land development regulations, you know, when we when the more restrictive is lifted and kind of work it that way and that way we've got everyone by a section, maybe agree and disagree. That way it's not all thrown together at the same time. I didn't say all at once. I I think that we we certainly can group it, but I don't want to drag it out for years. I would like to do it quickly and and I've

I've spent night after night after night and I've got it all highlighted line by line what's different and what's not and we can identify those quickly discuss them and we can do I think we should do at least five articles at once and we might be able to if we make that whole council agenda maybe completely on land development regulations with all the different sections it might it might work out well. Janine. So, I have a couple of things to say. Um, Janine, both for the record, you know, yesterday, I mean, I'd be remiss if we do not bring up the flood study.

This missing middle thing to me, I I live in downtown. There are plenty of missing middle. They have been there since I was a little kid. Okay. Um, to say that every single missing middle piece needs to be filled in by high density and that that way we're going to get more development. I I don't agree with that at all. Um, I feel that one of the things we need to be very careful about is recognizing that we have a lot of flooding and the more people we put in a floodprone area, the more dangerous it becomes. Um I have um you know I have some suggestions about being a coastal high hazard area and thinking I think our mindset needs to be a little bit different and thinking that you know we don't need 25 units an acre in the oldest historic district um the oldest neighborhood in the entire county by the way and there's no density like that anywhere not in PGI not so why are we doing that to our homes that are our most precious to us that we really want to preserve. So that to me, that missing middle thing, um I I feel like I I know that that was for affordable housing. I know what it was for. Um from what I understood, it was all about affordable housing and make housing more affordable, but um let's face it, right now the cost of construction is so high that the rents don't support the cost of construction. So there's that issue and there's nothing we can decide on today or any day in these land development regulations that are going to affect the cost. So um there you have that. Um also you know I am worried about our water. The higher the density, the more people, the more flushes, the more showers, the more dishwashing. We have to be careful about this. This is why I ran because I was not happy with 25 units and 50 units an

acre. That is not what is best for our community. Well, and on top of that, our roadways can't handle it. If we do need to evacuate, trying to get down some of these narrow little streets, if there's 50 units per acre, that's not going to work very well for anyone. and especially if the streets are flooded. So, there's only so much we can do about the flooding. We've been learning that. We already know it, but it's becoming more and more obvious. And therefore, we just have to deal with it the best we can. And that means not having high density downtown, I believe. Um, but we want to keep the quaintness of our town. And this is why we're here is to hear from you folks. How can we make our town viable and pleasant for everyone to live in? We came here for the reason of the quaint. Most of us came because quite beautiful. Um the the higher density can be a little further away from the flooding area. I mean that would make more sense. So we're looking to hear from you all and what you're looking for in our town because that's what matters. Um but we also want to make sure that it's functional and appropriate for what we are dealing with with the the flooding in the historic district and all that. So,

and I agree with Greg, you know, the hospital is going to be moving over to the Jones Loop area, and that's where we really need to consider a higher density is right in that area because that's going to be the the development where they will need more density. They're essential. They're an essential building. They have to shut down while we have an emergency. I mean, Right. It makes sense. So, yeah. So, that would mean we reszone that whole medical overlay partly. Well, it has an underlying zoning district and so if you want to just get rid of the overlay, then that could be removed. We still have medical offices there that are working well. So, again, excuse me, they would be permitted uses in the underlying zoning as well.

Excellent.

Yeah. And I do agree with Janine, you know, we have to be careful with anything that's closer to our harbor and our waterway, especially if there's runoff or anything. uh we we want to have a purious structures, you know, permeable structures so that I can get a new word like angry permeable structures so that we can have some absorption of water so it doesn't go right back out to the harbor because you think of our dirty roads and stuff like that. If the water gets high and it goes right off to our harbor, we're hurting our harbor. There's no cleansing and stuff like that. So, we really have to be careful of it. Maybe one last comment for me, Janine Pulk. Um the coverage ratios right now Mike and I are building we're rebuilding a home and um I had an architect do it and he's he's a structural engineer obviously and he told me if you're building on your lot over 60% coverage you would begin flooding other people around you.

So you know I tried to keep my house less than 60% um which is hard on a smaller lot but we were able to do it. anything and and I think our land development regulations allow for 70% coverage um in residential for multif family for multifamily okay and and here you go you're you're increasing density multifamily you're allowing more than 70 or you're allowing up to 70% coverage it it's creating an issue

and the downtown area doesn't that have like zero setbacks so we really need to take a look at that as well we need to have better setbacks especially if we've got these great restaurants who want to see people outdoors it's really hard to get around, you know, walk around if the outdoor seating is there and there's no place for wheelchairs or baby strollers or anything. So, I'm thinking that we do need to have that setback, especially to allow trees to grow and to to have it look like a nice area. We need those setbacks again for permable as well and for people if people want to have outdoor seating, it's going to have to be included. My thought is to have it included in their setbacks. And of course, the parking

and the parking Well, these are all come up as we go through all of the chapters and articles. Correct. But those are the issues that we're all aware of and we we will be hearing from the public and what their concerns are. Right.

And that is one of the things that you know when before the other ones were repealed is they were asking for one parking spot for 1,000 square ft no matter how big or small. And you think of Deans as 4,000 ft that means they only needed four parking spots. Now, if you're saying that and you only have these four parking spots and you've got these little ma and pa restaurants and and boutiques that are downtown and all of a sudden you're telling these other areas that they don't need the parking, they can just park in the street, what's going to happen to our small mom and paw businesses? Nobody will find a place to park and they're just going to leave and go someplace else. And then then we're going to shut down our mom and pop shops and we just don't want that. You want to have plenty of parking. Anybody else? Do you want to open up to the public?

Yes.

Okay. Fantastic. Remember, go over there with the microphone. Say your name for the record, please. You have three minutes. Derek Ry PGI. Um, I just want to, you know, for those who don't know me, I'm a local land use attorney. In my 20 years of doing that, I've learned a couple things. Um, my thoughts on what's going on in the city. It's not your LDRs. Okay, we play with it. It's I don't really think that is the case. Since Charlie, we had the single biggest runup in real estate and growth and our metropolitical area at Cape Coral and Punore was the highlight of it and those properties didn't get redeveloped. That's at the same time we had record low interest rates. We had prior to hurricane Ian and storms, we had low construction costs. Things were not getting done. Our competition is burnt store. It's out east. It's other other areas where the the cost of land is cheaper, the infrastructure costs are cheaper. It's not as constrained by the locations because the maximum of development when you have this pressure of people coming to Florida is up or out, right? You let them build up along the coast or you you have sprawl and you move out. I think we can keep what we have in the city low density. I don't care about height and I'm talking as someone who lives here. my kids, you know, grow up here. I I I even though I represent developers, I know what I want to see. I see what my neighbors want to see. I think we need, especially given the conversation yesterday. We talk about unified infrastructure downtowns in Florida that have redeveloped, you know, Venice, Hollywood, other that didn't do highrises or didn't do very at

least very much of that focused on, you know, parking garages, off-site utilities, off-site uh storage. When we make it easier for someone to come in and build on a property at three stories, when you ask them to say, "You got to park your site. You got to storm water your site." Well, now they have to go up. and we we get into this box where we're like, "Well, we don't want this and we don't want this, but we're talking about to to counciloman postpon the costs." So, we work out a system where we can charge developers you you can park on site, you can storm water on site or you can pay into a fee or a downtown development district or something where we will build it and you pay for that and that helps the MPA state. It helps them redevelop, makes their cost for tearing down, to be more floodproof, to rebuild something at a small scale, it makes it work. So my thought is it's not the not the codes. Focus on a couple of core things we want to see done and then let your staff and consultants work out codes that allow that to happen and work out the structures of infrastructure to make it possible. Thank you. Anyone else want to say anything?

Do you mind come up to the microphone and state your name, please?

My name is Tom Desmond. This is my wife Katherine and I live here full time for about 20 years. We love Bart. That's why we're here. We would never leave. What I heard Greg Julian mention is taking the few issues from the prior LDRs to this LDR except the other ones really boil down and work on the ones where we had significant differences. I think that's the way to do it. I would urge the council to accept his recommendation. Further, I think it's certainly incumbent on the city and council to develop land regulations that would encourage development in city marketplace.

I think 22 years of looking at that dirt is way too long. I don't have the answers, but I think you need to talk to industry folks, other governmental issues to try to figure out a way that we can revitalize our downtown. Our downtown doesn't offer much. Five or six restaurants, three or four shops, that's it. I've had people come in here from out of town say, "Well, you don't have anything. You don't have much." And they're basically right. There isn't much to keep somebody downtown walking around and visiting our city. I just encourage you to to work hard. I think I wasn't going to say this, but my wife and I spent a lot of time and hours public meetings chars for the last. They were accepted, then they got thrown out. I think it's a frustrating situation for you all and certainly for our population. So anyway, encourage you to work hard on this and get it done. Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh my name is Mark Duner for the record. Um getting everybody. I appreciate this opportunity. Um I feel like I've learned more about what's been going on in the city tonight than I did yesterday at the uh state of the city address. Um I just want to respectfully clarify something from yesterday. Um it was mentioned that businesses like mine, I own a pressure cleaning business. um can't operate in the city of Pontagora due to water restrictions in from the Southwest Florida Water Management District. Um my understanding and what uh Swiftland actually regulates is irrigation and water usage, not the ability for licensed contractors to operate. Um we follow all the applicable guidelines and operate within those rules. Um I was advised by Michael Cody with Southwest Florida Water Management District that my findings were correct. Um, and I just wanted it to be known that regardless of the um, people saying that businesses are not allowed to conduct business based off of water regulations is false. Um, business is still allowed to be conducted in in the city. Um, the reason I do bring that up is because land development regulations directly impact how services like ours are performed. Um, especially when it does come to storm water runoff and environmental compliance. Clarity and consistency in those regulations are critical for businesses and residents alike. Um, I understand that there are decisions about lowering the millage rate along with budget pressures that could impact departments like the police. Um, when revenue is reduced, it becomes more important that the city focuses on sustainable growth, hence the LDRs um, both residential and commercial to support services, infrastructure, and long-term stability. Without that growth, you're placing more strain on the existing resources and relying more heavily on regulations and fees to fill those gaps, i.e. zoning for commercial development. Um, I'd also encourage the city to consider hosting a workshop or public event since it was stated yesterday since it wasn't stated yesterday at the state of the city address that walks

through the past year uh what progress has actually been made um in the city what is actually what the actual numbers are and where the city is heading financially. Uh I think that le that level of transparency would be valuable for both the residents and business owners. Um and it would help shape the decisions that would need to be made with what type of regulations we would then need to implement for development for years to come. Not solely focused on the next week's issues. Um at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. A well-run city that protects its environments um supports its services and creates opportunity for responsible growth. Businesses like mine want to be part of that solution. I'd like to address a little bit about what what just said. Uh we too have reached out to Southwest Florida Water Management District for clarification and Mike Coats did in fact tell them that businesses are okay to operate that are pressure washing businesses in the city. Right now, what the regulations say, however, though, is that the only pressure washing that can be done is if you are going to reseal your driveway, if you're going to repaint it, if you're going to repaint your house, then you can go ahead and pressure wash. But for aesthetic purposes or just because you had your annual cleaning scheduled, that isn't allowed to happen. So, um, we are seeking further clarification with their legal staff. We actually had I was on a conference call yesterday afternoon with their leadership and they are um they reached out to their legal team and our um utilities director was on the phone with Mike Coats this morning too and he said he's not going to interpret the regulations, but you are you are welcome to operate your business in the city of Panagorta if you're doing those things that are legally allowed under that ruling. Certainly absolutely life safety things. If you're cleaning something that's moldy, if you're cleaning

something for a restaurant that has a health safety um tied to it, that's absolutely allowed right now. But our utilities department and our code compliance are following the letter of what was issued by Swift and we are seeking further clarification on that and we'll be happy to share any information. I I see you indicating that you're happy to share information too. We all we all want to be on the same page on this. Hello everybody. Sean Mclo commerce. Good to see you all tonight. Thank you for having us. Um I just wanted to uh two comments. Number one, sir, you said there's only five or six restaurants downtown. There's 16. If you go one mile in any direction, that number more than doubles. Um so there's plenty to do and 2 and a half miles of walkable distance downtown. There's a lot to do for our outsiders. Um second, I wanted to bring up parking. Um, I know that we were really pushing to get extra parking at the event center and I believe that that wasn't passed at the local 1% in the city because we were told that the parking garage is underutilized. So, it it's kind of a double-edged sword. You can't say that we don't have parking that we have underutilized parking garage that is right downtown, walkable to everything. So, thank you,

Sean. That was one for any new development. That wasn't saying that we didn't have no parking. If they didn't watch 10,000 there would be none. Thank you.

Good evening everybody. Trey, Susan Warzar and March against Mosaic. Those are really great comments. Sean, thank you. I've been doing a study for uh a few months now and we have plenty of restaurants in our city. We have plenty of bars for everybody to get real tanked up. And uh it's about preserving our small town charm. Right now we have up to 3,600 to 4,400 homes for sale in the city of Pontora alone. What a shame. What an absolute tragedy that the statistics were so far off all this development we have going on all over all the development that's about to go on Kings Highway all the development going out on 17 not to mention the AI data centers for years I have been telling Mike codes I've been telling John codes and swift mud your numbers are off. And I could have never been so wrong because what I and everybody else has found out recently is we have AI data centers. And what they say about their closed loop system is a bunch of horseshit. That's in a classroom. That's not in the real world where sludge will be discharged. And it is as equal and as bad as the the acidic waste water and toxic sludge mosaic discharges daily 24/7 from Tampa Bay to Charlotte Harbor.

Now you everybody have better start taking this water the Florida water quality crisis much seriously because I've been here for years and I don't want this das and staff to start reminding me of previous staff and dasis because I'm not a politician I'm a private citizen and I do everything volunteer here and I work very hard with other men and women in this city and state and county that actually do work, real work. And anybody that was clapping and smiling when my friend Matthew the Welder, any politician, Democrat, Republican, that applauded and clapped while they passed the welder's law, you're you get no support from Tim Richie. No political consultants, no lobbyists. We want to take our state back in the right direction. We have been being led in a terrible way

and I don't have any more time to waste. That was two minutes. Thank you very much, Sarah.

Hi guys. Kathleen Davis, PGI. Um, my husband and I started coming here maybe around 2008 to look at the area. We did all kind of research and this was the place that we decided that we wanted to retire in. When we were looking at we came, we actually bought the house in 2012 and then we retired that that year. Um, we love the city. We love being in the city. We love the downtown. We walk all over downtown night and day. There's no fear. There's everything is is beautiful and safe. The there's so much to do. There's there's so many places to go that like tonight we have two extra places to go when we leave here and we don't know which one to pick. Okay. So, because we're we're invited to two different places. So, it's absolutely it's a beautiful place. The situation with the marketplace downtown. Yeah. It's been like that since maybe almost 22 years ago when the land development regulations were changed. It was possible for whoever wanted to do anything to it that could be done with those regulations could have filed immediately or bought the property or set up a plan because you can all even although it's repealed you still you you are still able to appeal that and you can get you can do it. So obviously those regulations were not what was needed to get that developed. The person who owns it, it's a property, right? You cannot force them to develop it. It's either it's going to be developed or not. I love the Christmas tree lighting. I enjoyed the horses when they were there. The circus was there. Everything's fine. It's okay. I don't mind a big empty lot downtown. There's so much else to do. It doesn't bother us. We bought our house seeing

that lot. So, we're we're actually concerned about with rewriting the LDRs, the ones that were passed. Even the lawyer, Mr. Levin, who was in charge at that time, he right after he quit, he brought a lawsuit based on those same LDRs. So, basically, he didn't even agree with the LDRs. and he stated on the record that he had not read them and had not been directed to read them. That is actual public record. I can bring that up if anybody doesn't believe it.

So So okay. So basically the most important thing is if you're going to go line by line and fix some and not fix others to make some more permissive and others not, you will end up the waterfront is less permissive on the repealed LDRs. you will end up not protecting our waterfront. That is one of my most key issues here because we actually live on the water. I don't want things built up on the waterfront. I do not want any highrise or high density over there. I want our fragile ecosystem protected. So, I'd like you to keep as much as possible.

Thank you. Sorry. Hello, Bob Fritz, Burst Office. I'm very concerned with the bills going through the Florida state uh government right now. Uh especially with in our situation, um most cities have a residential to commercial ratio of 7030, 8020. We're at the bottom end with 90% residential, 10% commercial. If these go through, the burden is going to go off the homesteaded properties, which are the majority of homes in country, onto the nonhomesteaded properties, and onto commercial. What this is going to do is increase the taxes on commercial and those non-homesteaded properties. some of our commercial businesses are just hanging on right now, especially because we have the big off season. I think that's going to really do something. Uh, you know, I think what we have to do is encourage commercial development. Uh, and I want to speak about the highway commercial zone right now. Now we're now we're back to backward 71s. Okay? If anybody wants to do anything on the highway commercial zone, we have to fix that right away. uh we we need no residential there. Right now under these current LDRs, uh commercial has to be over 50% and residential can be 49%. The previous ones of a couple years ago, you could put 45 units of residential with no commercial. So, I'm glad that has changed right now, you know, but we

really have to uh have to do something about that because you we're going to drive our existing commercial our restaurants and stuff that are barely making it right out of business. Thank you.

Thank you. Gary Gilligorn from Gorda. Uh, I'll be quick. I know my priorities. Height, density, and setback. I mean, that that to me. Now, I want to step back a few years. The early shetses. How many of you participated in those sharetses? Oh, a lot of hands. That's very good. I know. I when I walked away from those sharetses, it was a battlecry. I used to use that expression as a battlecry. No high buildings. And I still stand with that. Not real deep here today, but that's my thoughts again.

Thank you. Hi K's uh president of Hunch Court idols and we came down here in the '9s and Gary remember when we met with Gary wine and it I think he then later suggested the sheretses because I think he wanted to go up to like 65 ft or something and everybody was like no no no so then we got the sharets then we get 100 ft like I don't know how that happened but anyway I'm going to go over a couple different topics which might not all make sense, but just to get on the record, um the main thing that I hear from residents is parking. Uh we want to make sure there's enough parking. I love Pizza Gordon. I can't find a place to park there, so I don't go there. I mean, we love our small businesses and we want them to thrive and we want people to be able to come down and park there. Uh we came here because there were no national chains. there were small businesses. We want to do things to encourage the small businesses. We don't want a sunseeker in here where it's all owned by somebody wherever. Um we don't want higher density. There's no advantage to that. There's no advantage to the residents. Um we don't want higher building heights. Um we don't care what you put down. over at Jones Loop. I think at the Sharettes, everybody was like, "Oh, yeah, 100 ft more, whatever, what have you." Remember when there was supposed to be that loop um development? Well, which is now residential um also the city, I've been a builder and a realtor. The city marketplace is not seriously on the market. Who here wants to recommend if you have a

neighbor and their house has not sold that they should increase their price by 150% as interest rates are going up. I mean, it just, you know, as as a builder, I'm not buying a lot like that. It's the most expensive piece of property in the whole county. There are cheaper things at Fort Meyers Beach where you're going to get a better return on your investment and that's the whole name of the game. So, if somebody can figure out a way to get that sold, I'm not necessarily an advocate of it, but eminent domain. I asked some people in general and surprisingly there were some people in favor of that. Um, also I do want to make a point. I was talking to Derek about this a while ago and I need to get back on it. Our nonhomesteaded people pay the same rate as our commercial. So we should consider our nonhomesteaded people as commercial as far as our ad valarum taxes. And then also I'm such a nerd was also an account. Here are the LDRs. And yes, there were many se that was 3 minutes. There are many sections that did not change. So we need to focus on the ones that did.

Thank you. Thank you for inspiring me.

I'm just going to sit back and not say anything. Lindsay Harrington, former city official, elected official. Uh been around 47 years. first came here 1976 I think it was for a family reunion and uh when uh government told me they didn't need my service anymore so I I came to my quarter uh I'm in real estate 47 years I've seen a lot of change in this town and uh why has the downtown property that uh Joe B owns not developed it's called price exactly rents downtown and Mike can trip Mike your husband uh can probably prove or disprove what I'm saying because he might.

But anyway, there you have it. Uh the rental rates right today doesn't justify $12 million. Exactly.

It really doesn't. And and and so in order to make it work, he's got to have, you know, 45 units an acre or he's got to have a lot of commercial. Uh it just it just doesn't make sense. And so somebody out of town uh is controlling our downtown for us and uh oh yeah, I'd love to see a park, but it's not going to work in support of our businesses downtown, the restaurants especially and the shops. And so uh that's that's the problem that I see we have here in in Pontagora. And I just own some property up the street. I used to live here. I lived here 41 years and moved to Deep Creek. And so I still have land in in the city. It's multif family and uh it's overpriced. I did it myself. But anyway, uh the other point I want to make up or bring up is the fact that day before yesterday uh on 1 cent sales tax, they talked about building a garage, parking garage at the convention center. They talked about 325 cars is what they were talking about if it's going to work, that kind of thing. And uh if it does, I think it would be a great assistance to the city in this commerce and everything. And uh another thought is that that could be that that parking garage on a non-event day could be a place where you could have yard sales, you have uh uh shows on on a floor that's not going to be occupied. You take maybe the middle floor, top floor, and uh and yes, where you can have your event. And so it can be a draw for downtown. But uh I think the major problem is the price of that city marketplace. I've seen the old uh design and everything. It was beautiful way they had it laid out. Beautiful uh arrangement had a hotel and all but uh again the numbers don't work with what they we have today. And so it's Mrs.

Bob's got to change it. My last comment is someone referenced having a group getting together and giving some advice on downtown. I think getting some of the local builders and realtors and and and you all together and citizens put together 11 member uh committee especially commercial realtors. That was three minutes and and then do do your little study. Thank you. Thank you.

For the record, John Spra, Council, Dr. Riker, um the whole topic here is high density setbacks. That's what it comes down to, nothing else. So, Greg, I agree with you that to get to the nuts of the matter, figure that out, the rest of it will fall into place. Um, I've heard some comments here about the price of land being a lot cheaper east. Price of land is always cheaper somewhere else. It's always, it never changes. The reality is the center for is the center. Why did Publix build there? Why did people have a uh a dry cleaner etc? It was simple. It was a center, right? But now the people are not living in the center. The volume of people are outside of city core. I reference city core all the time because that's the heart. That's what's moving. And you need to address that concept w with my neighbors, people who are for and for against and deliver the message of how important the heartbeat is. We go out on Friday nights. Why not? The town says that it's happening. Ortigia was a nothing burger years ago. Then sometimes put in a bar, good idea with some canister or trucks or whatever it was there. And then Artigia, who's an operator, they know how to run a business. They came in, look at the place. Get out and see what's happening here. It It's going on. It won't go on. In fact, you take what is the heart of the city and you destroy it with a wall of buildings. Just will not be

happening. And I'm talking 10 years ago when I'm probably not going to be here. The reality is what people are faced with. They're faced with a place that adds an atmosphere. I came from Delray Beach, Florida. I can go out any night of the week and play my bass guitar at how many different venues. That's the way it was. That's the vision here in Point, not over all of buildings. Address that point and you'll be on the road to success. There's Chourettes. Come on guys, it was 10 years ago. My god, why would anybody just destroy all that work was done? It was beyond me. So personal goals need to be eliminated and look at the overwhelming resistance to what's happening. People say smart growth is no growth. That's not true. That's just a ridiculous statement. Get off of that. Get on the real topic. Solve the core problem. Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm Bob Miller. I'm a local contractor for Miller Construction and I actually love Pala. Uh I have some existing businesses that uh have had parking problems for many years, especially coming up with a rainy season. I've had three different businesses reach out to me in the last week to see what they can do for their employee parking. They own the lots. It's grass. We know what it is. They've come ruts. They they're a mess. And uh I've had a couple solutions I brought to zoning and they've been shut down. I guess I'd like the opportunity to come back one more time and look at it again.

Thank you. Good evening everyone. TJ for the record. Um Greg, I think your approach makes total sense and uh seems like we had a similar conversation about a year ago. Um it was at the church Cooper and we were going round and round about LDRs. I was one of several that stood up and said, "Why don't we just take the parts that we really have heart density, height, setbacks, focus on those and fix it. I don't, you know, it's not rocket science to me in that regard. I just want a thriving downtown. Um, I don't want to go to dinner or TV bar and joint scoop. Um, I want to come downtown and I not live downtown, but I want to I want a thriving downtown which means attracting people to our mom and pops, our restaurants and bars and attracting an investment people that are going to want to build and invest in our downtown. Um, on the formbbased code, I made no secret that I was not a fan of forbased code on the residential side especially. Uh, it takes away design creativity. Uh it it basically you have to fit this architectural fox and I was a previous um person up in that city staff that believed heavily in not corrupting architecture that it's going to be pure. It's going to be you know art deco or mission or craftsman not a mix. I strongly believe in design creativity. I don't want all of our houses to look the same. I don't want all of our buildings to look the same. I mean we have murals. We have an artistic community. Why wouldn't you encourage variety? So when you're when you're considering these, you'll take that in consideration, especially on the residential side.

Good evening. For the record, I'm Walter Freed. My wife and I have been a resident of PGI for the past 16 years. And I think the topic that's come up tonight and a lot that you've heard about it, it does get down to heights, density, setbacks, parking. Those are the nuts and bolts issues. I think Greg's right that yes, the administrative part of doing the others can be brought to a head and pass through, but the rest of it is going to be it's going to be tough. It's been a lot of discussion about this of what do you want for this city? The city isn't large. The city's 20 square miles. The city of Northport's 100 square miles. You know, city of Fort Myers is about 60 square miles. The other city that's close to us is Naples. We've heard a lot of discussion over the past couple of years about if we don't grow, we're going to be a ghost town. And I don't know why. This is a great city. This is a great city. That's why people moved here. And my folks moved to Naples, you know, 25 years before I moved here. And it has changed. But the one thing about Naples that never changed, I didn't realize that till today. Naples population today is the same as it was 35 years ago

and it's the same population as Pagora and you can't say that Naples is not a thriving city and it's had a tremendous amount of growth in the outlying areas around it but it's a thriving city just like Pagora I believe is a thriving city. So the things that we do have to take care of is to make sure when it comes to density overbuilding the downtown buildings that you can't see the water anymore because they're 110 ft high. You want an example of that? Go up to Venice down to the far end by the yacht club and just look at the wall of buildings, housing units right on the water. You can't even see the water. We don't want that here. And I think a reason that a lot of people rose up in protest is worried that what we do see, what I see throughout the aisles, the size of the construction is acceptable. We like that. We like the density. We don't want to lose that. We don't want something that just says every year you have to change it and add more density and more growth packed into our 20 square miles. I don't believe it. So I think that this is what the core issue that you've got to get that on the table. Get rid of the easy stuff. get on to the core issue and let's get it solved. Thanks.

Mike P. Uh, I was born here, lived here for 60s something years. Uh I'm I'm a real estate appraiser. I appraise properties from uh Tampa to Naples. I've developed I I built a 15,000t flex building on Charlotte Street in Bundard. I built a 9,000t retail center uh on Chamberlain and 41 Port Charlotte. Uh I agree with Derek. The LDRs have nothing to do with light and development. We're in a flood zone. So you got to be at a base flood elevation of 9 or 10 ft just to start. So you're putting that much uh block to your do your foundation. So you're a competitive disadvantage out there John Loop where the um uh Chick-fil-A and and Panera and all all that's going in their build slab on grade they paid 750 $7.50 a square foot for their sites. Marketplace is asking 50. uh David Private 40 for his site as part of the bank, Bank of America. The only reason that worked for him was because he's not doing conventional development. He's going to do containers. Okay? If he was doing conventional development, he would have walked away. Okay? He looked at the uh car wash site next to Leroy. That was his first choice. He was told by Mitchell before he left that he'd have to put multi a multifamily component on a second level. and he said, "Okay, I can't do this. This doesn't work. We've got to have something that's flexible." I like the old PD. 90% of Southwest Florida from Lakewood Ranch to Naples was done under PL developments. Okay. It's flexible. There's give and take. Okay. So, I thought it was a mistake getting away from that. You can't sit there and dwell on city marketplace. You know, Lashley was part of the original group. They were going to put Moparine

there. Moparine. It didn't work out. They ended up putting the the uh the hotel there. That worked out pretty good. But he's got 5 1/2 acres that he won't split up. If you look at the the Bank of America building, they've already split up a half acre. They sold it. I think let's take down their their Bank of America. I think someone will buy that final acre. It's a signalized corner. It makes sense. But there's a lot more potential buyers for half acre and acre parcels than there is for a 5 and 1/2 acre parcel. A 5 and a halfacre parcel can kill you because the market can change before you get your development done. Okay? And you got that kind of capital invested. I've been there. Okay? You don't want to get strung out a year or two. The market changed. Look what has happened. Retail is pretty much dead because of the internet office because of co it's it's another one. It's a loser. And now even multifamily that everybody was taxing uh 2 or 3 years ago. We have a 17 and 12% vacancy rate in Charlotte County for multifamily and rents are falling as we speak. Anybody else want to come up and speak?

Okay.

My name is Mark Stone. I live in PGI. Um, I originally moved here in 2008 when I went home. And I moved down here because I was in New York City and I wanted a place to retire. Fell in love with this place. Beautiful place. At that time, this community was getting awards for one of the great places to retire and live in. Well, those days are gone.

Um, I don't envy your position and I don't and I'm not professing to tell you how to do your job. I just know you have to do it. So, we wish you we want to support you in that effort. But the most disappointing thing I heard was something that happened this year. I have friends that I invite down and they come and look at it. And no doubt we have been afflicted by great disasters in the last 20 years. But when someone told me they drove around downtown and they said it looks like Detroit. I think we need to take that comment seriously. And um I don't know the answers. I just thought you should hear that because that was an un unbiased opinion. Um, let's make Punter work beautiful again and I challenge you to do that.

We're working on that, let me tell you. Not going to talk tonight about it, but we are working on that. Thank you. Rachel, do you want if everybody's done speaking, Rachel, do you want to talk about Oh. session future.

Hi, my name is Frank Ki. I live in district one of the border. Um, just a couple things that comments that were made and it was very interesting uh what I heard, but some things still bother me in the city when we look around, we drive around. Uh we had the the Pine Bora Suites uh building hotel that used to be the old uh Best Western. Um that was destroyed by one of our four out of five hurricanes. Um but the pavement is still there. There's debris on the structure on the property. It was my understanding that if a building is destroyed, that owner was supposed to bring that building back to its original condition. We should be doing that. That would make that money for the city of Wonder Work wonderful. And that goes for the city marketplace. There's escal pavement on the city marketplace. That paper should be removed and it should go back to an ice mill and let that owner take the responsibility. I will speak to that. We have code cases currently on all of the properties that have the impervious services that need to come up. Uh there was a development um application in place up until recently on city marketplace. When that expired that allowed us to be able to start a code case once again the waterfront hotel area, the city has uh gotten a contract for to get that area cleaned up. The initial contract will take care of beautifying the site. It's not going to remediate the concrete at this point, but it'll at least get it cleaned up. We'll be leaning the property, but you will see the city becoming more and more aggressive on that. And we'll be asking our code enforcement board to take serious action against these property owners as well.

Are we breaking out into sessions? I have a question for maybe for Boyd. What's your opinion on a planned development? As we've had a little discussion about this, I'd like I'd like to just see what you think. Well, the Mr. P made a good uh comment about plan development. Uh if you can be more flexible, it also gives uh staff, council opportunity to negotiate maybe certain public benefits that would be advantage to the community. So, that's something we consider to bring that. I know other in Florida other community market county work.

And if I may, I'll just play devil's advocate on that. A plan development though does put a lot of risk on the developer and on the the potential business owner because they have to invest a lot of money in the plans that five people sitting on city council may or may not like. So there there's some serious risk on that side too. So there's pros and cons. Yeah. To negotiate process. Yes. So we have we don't have the breakout sessions. I think we are seeing people think well here they packed up since our focus kind of narrow to the working on these articles going forward. So that some we should bring in future meetings.

I think we've heard um fairly well from the community at this point and if there are points there will be city council meetings where these are discussed. I think us as staff we have our marching orders now from city council. They want to look at the items that um require minimal changes. Let's get those in front of them as quickly as possible and then we'll work through the other ones that have a little bit more substantial changes as we move along. Um, as I said, there will be opportunity for public input every step of the way in those city council meetings. If we get to a point where city council is um, in need of a larger public workshop to make some of those decisions, we'll schedule one of those and make sure we get the word out on that.

How does everybody feel about that answer? Yes. We have anything else? I guess if nothing else then we are journed. Thank you so much for attending tonight.