City Council - Regular Meeting

Hello everybody. Thank you for being here tonight. It is Tuesday, April 7th. It is 51. We'll go ahead and do our call here. Holiss locker. Thank you.

Sure. David Perry. Okay. Fantastic. Thank you so much. stands one indivisibley for all. Melissa, did you want to look over? I I don't know. Yeah. And if any of them want to sit over there more comfortably, I mean, It would be easier if you guys should.

We like being tight. Okay. All right. Really tight neighbor. Join at the head. Okay. So, our next meeting is actually going to be tomorrow morning. It's our regular city council meeting. It'll be here at the community room. Everybody approve the agenda. Yes. Okay. And public input. Anyone wishing to address the council? Let's state their name first. You have three minutes. Anybody want to speak? We're just staring at you. Do you want to speak?

On the regular agenda, we're going to start out with 2A. Am I going in and out? Certified local government designation.

I'm very excited to see this on the agenda. It only means good things for us. So, I hope we don't have any issues.

Adriana Gerie, Planner One. Uh, so good evening. Council members and members of the Historic Preservation Advisory Board, uh, thank you for being here today. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I am still learning a lot um about the certified local government program and process and this is a very detailed process and we're just going to kind of work through it step by step. What is a certified local government? A certified local government or CLG is a city or county that has formally made historic preservation part of its public policy. This happens through adopting a preservation ordinance and establishing a review board, which we already have. The CLG program comes from the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 and the 1980 amendments. It's a partnership between local governments, the state historic preservation office, and the National Park Service. So, the purpose of the CLG program is that it helps communities identify historic structures, protect them, promote community character, encourage economic development through preservation, and strengthen local preservation programs. There are several several benefits to becoming a certified local government. One is funding. CLGs are eligible for federal historic preservation fund grants. At least 10% of all federal preservation funding is reserved specifically for CLGs. Um technical assistance. CLGs reserve receive guidance from preservation professionals and training opportunities for staff and board members. Local involvement. Becoming a CLG gives us the ability to review National Register nominations within our jurisdiction.

Community benefits. It encourages reinvestment in historic areas, supports heritage tourism, and protects our community character over the long term. To qualify as a CLG, a community must adopt a preservation ordinance that meets federal and state standards. That checklist is included in your agenda packet. Um, a have a preservation board, which yay, we do. Maintain an inventory of historic resources. This, I feel like, is going to probably take the most time. uh provide opportunities for public participation. We love workshops. Submit a complete application to the state historic preservation office. We already meet some of these requirements, but others are still going to need to be developed.

Doesn't the inventory already exist?

Well, there's a little bit of something here. So, when this came up, um has come up with me and this board for a while now. Maintain a system for identifying and inventorying historic properties, right? So, um we need to be able to have that system identified. We were doing this before Charlie um where this board walked the whole hood as I call it. We walked every block. We walked it as a board. So my question was uh Friday when I met with this lovely woman um how are we going to do this with the sunshine law stuff going on and then I get this email that says well you know you can't do this with sunshine blah blah blah and yeah you can do anything you got to figure out a way to do it you guys do workshops we could do work I don't know how we're going to make this happen but we need to update that and identify that I think while we're doing this we're going through this process we're going to actually we're going to do the hard work I promise How we do that is going to be what we're allowed to do and how we're good. Sorry. Um as part of this as part of do we want to talk about the details of that now or do we want to hold that for later?

I'd love to do it. I'm fine with that. So, um, as far as a walking tour goes, there are a number of concerns that my recommendation would be that that is not the best way to go. Um, public access is one of the requirements of the sunshine. Block walking tour is a bit of a moving target. If a citizen arrives late or loses the group, meeting becomes close to them. There's a number. Oh, I'm sorry. Was I not close enough? Yeah. Were you able to hear me before? Do you want me to repeat that? I I missed that whole last sentence.

Okay. So, public access is a big concern with the sunshine. That's the number one part. A walking tour is a moving target. If someone were to arrive late or to have to step away and use a restroom somewhere, that's another potential issue. The meeting becomes closed to them because they won't know where the group is anymore. ADA accessibility is an issue, too, because those sidewalks present a number of issues for anyone who might have a mobility impairment. A walking tour would also potentially, depending on the time of year, face health and safety concerns related to heat. We know that a number of our residents are older and more susceptible to um the heat. There's the lack of facilities that could present a bit of a concern, too. If someone needed to use the restroom during the walking tour, where they want to go, I wouldn't want to try to step into someone's house. And um meaningful participation would also be a concern if there were members of the public and potentially even among board members because wind and traffic and the distance between people present an issue if it's real noisy. How are you going to hear each other very well? And there's also uh safety and planning aspects that are a concern as far as brain plans would go. And if you have a large group, if we did have a interested public that wanted to be involved, coordinating all of them along the path safely would be an issue as well. Um during the initial discussions that were had a member had suggested that they could take a chapel chaperon tour that would involve no talking. However, the Florida government and the sunshine law manual um did say that there are no exceptions for not holding a meeting in full compliance with the sunshine law for a board. They had an example where there was a factf finding bus tour that was held without complying with Sunshine Law, that municipality got into trouble because even though the school board members were separated from each other by

several rows of seats, did not discuss their preferences or opinions, and no vote was taken during the trip, it wasn't legally defensible. Now, there are different ways we could try to tackle this though. So, one thing that could be done is the historic district could be broken up into zones with members that are interested in participating in it being designated a zone to go through review. Um, we just have to make sure that people aren't overlapping, that they know their boundaries, they're going to be doing that at the same time. So, there's no appearance that a meeting is being held outside of the sunshine. staff could assist in helping or if the members want to develop a standardized document that could be used by the members while they're doing their uh walking tours and their zones, they could bring that material back to a meeting. Either the members themselves or staff could potentially take pictures to share so everyone's looking at the same house or other structure and understands what the uh potential historic value of that structure is. There is also um the potential for I'm sorry I lost my train of thought. This would have the benefit of being a stationary meeting at that point. We'd be able to hold it in our regular area. I know that there was a related concern to about the fact that the historic board they meet once a month and they don't want to be slowed down overly much and I don't think council really wants this process to take super long either necessarily. Something that we could do to try to help the board out is um holding a second meeting each month. It would be a special meeting where the board could come together to discuss what they've found so far while they're doing their uh tours. And that meeting could be held as kind of a bare bones agenda. It would be an opportunity for them to have a discussion within the Sunshine Law staff likely would not need to be present. If there were questions, urban design staff would not need to be present. We would have someone present to take the

minutes. It would have someone present to record, but urban design staff, they would be available by email if there were questions that arose from that meeting or they could be addressed at the next regular meeting of the historic preservation advisory board. That was something that we thought we could try to to help compromise with the board and offer business as we can. Thank you. Mr. Charlie, can you talk into the microphone? I've got a growth on my vocal cord. So, I'm gonna

It's gonna get cut off tomorrow. So, and and my hell would be if I was unable to talk at all. That would be my living hell, by the way. So, I'm talking now. Um, would it be possible uh for a video camera? I'm thinking maybe one street or one block at a time, film a section, and then we could meet and we could all watch and the public could watch the video and we could discuss the homes on the video. I think that would be better than still pictures, but I don't know if the city's got access to video equipment. I'm asking the city to prepare this.

Um, I'm not sure what kind of equipment they would have and I'm not sure about the staff capacity to go out and do full-on recordings. Um, I think a still image would probably be good at least for a first cursory pass and then if there were questions, perhaps additional images or maybe some amount of footage could be captured for ones where there was a question because it's not clear if that one is truly historic or not. And and just to interject there about the pictures, I know that our files do have pictures of the contributing structures. I don't think all of them, some are gone, that kind of thing. But we could use that as move forward.

Uh if if we think that that's cool and then we add to it, we could we could take some snapshots then we could and I agree with you Charlie, we're trying to find ways to skin this

and if uh individual board members video could be compiled, that would be all right, too. But I do think if we're going to try to address this efficiently and before the public, there needs to be some editing done before the meeting so we can cover the homes, you know, as best we can, but as efficiently as we can. And my guess is uh probably 80 to 90% will say, "Yeah, we all agree that's a contributing structure. Oh, that's terrible. We don't really need that on the register." And then there might be 10 or 20% that we need to debate.

Well, just to clarify, I mean, if it's already on a contributing structure list, that's going to muck us up a little bit. So, what my concern is more is what's left, where are they, what blocks are they? We're going to be discussing overlay districts. We're going to be rewriting this stuff, and that's what you've charged us to do, and we're taking it seriously. So, there's a process here, but we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. So, we've got some stuff. Let's see what you know what I'm saying. My question is does this inventory need to be completely updated before we he's talking about CLG the certified local government. Correct. Yes.

Yes. Can you repeat your question? I did not hear it. I'm sorry. I just said does that inventory need to be updated completely before we apply for the certified

so Terry Ziggler for the record. Um just a little background I came at this with a copy of a 1999 survey that was pretty thorough. Um I then asked city staff if they had a more recent uh file and I was provided with a copy of 2016 inventory and looking at that. That was quite an extensive uh survey because it not only covered the uh historic district uh and local register and Florida master site uh homes but um the entire city. So I again went back and uh staff um and thank you to them. They provided me with a a list. It wasn't dated, but it was called properties that require CA. Um, and every one of these properties that was on this list, and it's 14 pages long, um, have a FMSF, which is Florida master site number, which I've been told is the controlling, um, factor on whether a house, a structure needs a CA or not. So these these homes whether they're you know and some of the dates are you know 1930 1895 but then there's also 1955. Um it's all over the board. So to you your suggestion of um the city clerk's suggestion of dividing this up is great but I don't know where we have the you know whether we have the manpower to keep it up to date. 14 pages

approximately 20 20 structures per page. That's a lot of walking. Um and uh so that that would be you know a question that I think needs to be addressed is manpower in doing this. I like the idea of dividing it up amongst us, but you got some old folks here and I don't know how many homes we could we could cover. Um, so just one addition one additional thought on that. I took the list on my own, not with any other member of the board. Um, and I didn't get too far out of my own neighborhood and the list that I was provided to me seemed to be um, incomplete. Um although every property had a uh FMSF number. Um for example on my my very street 113 McGregor Street is is named um that's that structure uh I've been told burned to the ground in 2002. It's no longer there. Um there is a home that uh is on that property that's not on the list. 111 McGregor Street and you go on and on and on. Uh, and I'm not going to take up this meeting's time to read read all the inconsistencies that I discovered. Uh, but one of, and I might as well interject this at this point, one of the um benefits of having an up-to-date list would be um, we have a lot of homes for sale and a lot of homes in the historic district are for sale. And uh I I believe it's important, it's not

spelled out anywhere, that u we at least know what properties are for sale either in the MLS or for sale by owner and uh make sure that the listing agent is aware of the process if they want to make any alteration to a historic property. Um, and so that would be a benefit of having an up-to-date list. So, in my opinion, I don't think the the list as we have it is up to date and I would hate to submit it to the state and then have all these inconsistencies pop up later. We need to we need to button this up.

I am curious, have all members had access to the local register of historic places that had been prepared previously and if not would members be interested in receiving that? Yes. Okay. And I believe as part of that this development there were a series of PowerPoint presentations that included photos that had been reviewed by a prior preservation advisory board. So I could try to find those as well and forward that to everyone if

Thank you Sarah. That's what I was talking about. In the past there was a there was a history about not only when it was built, a picture of the home uh and the address, but also any kind of um when you talk about preservation, it's not necessarily just the home. It's any person or or activity that was attached that that does have a historic significance and I know it exists. So, yeah, that would be cool. Okay, I'll find that. And um before we cut this topic entirely, I did want to bring up that if we do have increased uh meeting frequency for HPA, to be cognizant of is the attendance requirements and whether or not current members can meet those. So, I just want to bring that up before we let that topic. Thank you.

Because that would that would change like if we miss four meetings, we're talking if we if we double this up, right? And personally, I think this board is dedicated to the work. But I I agree. Thank you for mentioning that. Thank you.

So, um I feel like with all the technology we have, we might be able to hit this levels. You know, Google Earth, I know it's not always updated right away, but I figured, you know, that could be a tool. You already talked about the MLS system. You know, that's very easy to look at and see what's on, you know, for sale. Um, I don't know, but I've got some friends that, you know, are are FAA approved to fly a drone. You know, uh, flying a drone over these these areas and taking those pictures and, you know, um, putting them in chat and being able to match up the addresses. I I feel like we might be able to accomplish a lot of this to get it started without having to have necessarily physical boots on the ground. Just a suggestion. Yeah,

we just got to figure out how to do it. I appreciate any thoughts. I mean, I can give it my friend and and and find out what it would take to fly a drone. Um, you know, get back to everybody. Charlie Noble, excuse me. Uh with respect to the attendance policy, I am a member of an organization where the attendance is stated as you can't miss more than 20%. Uh so if we wanted to adjust our attendance policy, it could be a percentage of all meetings.

You'd have to change that for every board in the city. So I think that's a non-starter. I appreciate your thought, but all boards, you know, have to be handled the same except I believe code enforcement's a little different. But that would be going into a dive. But I think I think we're all ready to stand up. I really think we are. Unless I'm wrong. Just raise your eyebrows. Also, it it was brought up of possibly getting um local groups like I don't know, team or the historical society to also take this on as well. if they would be interested, it's worth reaching out for so then they can go with you guys so you're not going by yourself. If that was

See, I don't think it's the issue that I need company on a stroll. I think the issue was is that we need to get this nailed down. It's one of the first things we need to do for the CLG. It's one of the first things we need to do for the HPV instead of HPAB.

And so instead of making this glacial and five years down the road, we finally get it together, which is what I don't want. you know, I really don't want that. Um, and and and so that to me is the concern. It's the timing of of let's get this done. However, we can make this work. Every suggestion I think is wonderful, but like I said, I don't need company. I was just trying to figure out how we could be at this board and I think the answer is meeting twice a month and and that second meeting is just going to be about the contributing list getting that nailed down so that we're moving forward with the CLG and and any ordinance by the way that we're talking about. Um I'm not even getting into local overlay districts and stuff like that that would follow if we wanted to go there. But I think at this point we need to just I'm tired of just paddling underneath the water. I' I'd like to move forward.

Yeah, it was just um a suggestion of staff for just to reach out to those groups to help kind of tackle that.

I have a question. Debbie looks for the record. Have you looked at making uh documentation that is fillable for you so that you're all on the same page looking at the same thing you know filling it in what year you know is it reading who was there you know you know you something that you can just check it off so you're not so it would be easier and more standard for you to go through and review each house. Um just because I'm all over this. Um we've got the master the CLG master list. We've got that already. What we don't have and what um I think Sarah or I'm not I'm not sure who said we do have the past that has pictures human beings attached to it that were prominent in doing things in this community. They might not have been mayors or vice mayors or generals or whatever but they were involved um in some way shape or form with with these structures that we call contributing. So, if we can get that list and we have the CLG master list. Well, this is this is a master list of cities. But my point is we got a place to start. We don't have to start from zero.

What we need to do is find the holes. But I agree with you if as each person finds a hole, there should be a list that we fill out. If we're doing this individually, I agree with you. Template. A template. Exactly. Yeah. Perfect. And there is uh Rachel just told me there is a a standard structural structural form that it could be filled out as they're doing this as well. Great. So that would give somebody Janine for the record that would give somebody like myself I don't have a lot of experience in this but it would at least give me you know kind of a look at what you're looking for. And if I'm taking pictures of the just the front of the house you might want to have us look at the side of the house. Whatever it is all of it. But all of it. Yeah. And that's a problem, too.

Need permission. Well, that's a problem, too. So, I I've looked into that. I mean, days gone by, I we would we would tour every single house that came in front of this board. We would go around. If it was empty, we'd go inside. We didn't need the insurance thing wasn't a problem. You didn't need a hard hat. You didn't need glasses. You You did your job. It's harder now. I I agree. Times have changed. Um my thought is if there's that there's not a no trespassing sign, I don't think it's a problem. But maybe that's overstepping. I don't know. But it's a great question.

And we already have the parameters of, you know, all the streets and everything that you're going to be looking at. Is that correct? So maybe send out some sort of a notice that, you know, the historic preservation will be going around, you know, looking at it. So don't be afraid if you see somebody walking around. I don't know if that would help.

I don't know. Like I said, as far as I know, that um unless it's posted that you can't I'm not talking about looking in windows. I'm talking about getting a um you know the whole view of the front, back and sides because sometimes the front is completely different from what's going on in the in the back of the property. If it's outside um and significant changes have been made, that would come into question. We would have to discuss that. You know, if there's additions on the back, the only thing preservation is involved with is the outside of the structures. We're not involved with the inside at all. So, but these are questions that come up and so that's a good part about that's why I think we need to meet twice a month is that we get the parameters started, we have these discussions, we can you guys have t us to to do this work, we're going to do it. How we do it and not get ourselves into trouble is what we're As part of this process, the HPAB is also interested in transitioning from an advisory board to a decision-making board. This aligns with CLG expectations. Many certified local governments in Florida have preservation boards with decision- making authority. Uh we it has been mentioned many times that it would be easy as we're going through the CLG process to also implement the decision making board. Uh process. All right. So, steps to becoming a certified local government. Um, I want to be very clear that the steps are not simple. It is going to take time. Um, it we have to decide what will go into the text amendment. So, we're going to have to review our preservation ordinance, identify gaps, and determine updates

needed to meet the CLG standards. So I included in the agenda the historic element of the comp plan, a comparison of the LDRs that were repealed and the current LDRs and the difference in the historic um section. And we're going to have to establish a local inventory of historic places which we've already discussed. review the structure and responsibilities of the HPAB, especially if moving toward a decision making uh board and submit all materials to the state historic preservation office, receive feedback, revise as needed, and then the National Park Service makes the certification decision.

Is is there any estimate of what kind of time frame that is from beginning to end?

I'm not I'm not quite sure. Um I could see I could reach out to other um municipalities on the list and see maybe they know how long it took. For the record, um, if I could offer an opinion to chair's question, I looked at the checklist for applying for designation of CLG and having been through some processes in my earlier life, I'm going to take a wild stab and say it's more than a year. Deb, for the record, it it looks like on here our neighbor Venice just did a certification was in 2023. They may actually be somebody who's most recently done it who might have some good advice. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Um, so responsibilities after certification, the city must maintain an active preservation program. The HPAB must hold regular meetings and maintain records of actions taken. The city must maintain an inventory of historic resources and provide opportunities for public participation. Annual reporting to the state historic office is required. Periodic program evaluations may also occur to ensure compliance with program requirements. And then maintaining compliance ensures continued eligibility for funding opportunities. I also want to acknowledge the staff time that will be involved. Supporting a

decision-making board, maintaining a historic inventory, preparing reports, and completing annual state reporting all require staff capacity. I'm still learning what the full scope of this will look like, but I want to be transparent that staff time is a real factor in this process, but thankfully we have a board that is willing to volunteer their time. and help out as much as they can because they're very passionate about historic preservation. I also have some examples of certified local governments that are kind of near us. Um I also included in your agenda the full list of the master file

David Perry they surround us

and then uh becoming a certified local would strengthen our preservation efforts, expand our access to funding, and help protect the character that makes Kagortis special. Um, do we have any questions or I can help with likes? For the record, I think that the biggest thing is making sure and and it sounds like you are so passionate about doing this and and wanting to get in and do the work, which is great because we have kind of overburdened our staff quite a bit. So anything that we can do, we just have to make sure that they're not trying to like run and do things and also they have to do something else. So we have to really be aware of of how much we're burdening our staff.

I also think that meeting twice a month is going to help that issue and that we can discuss publicly without violating sunshine, which by the way has been here since 1969. I did a deep dive in sunshine because it's kind of ticking me off at this point. So if we can meet twice a month, we will be able to do this, you know, figure this stuff out in the proper way to not violate sunshine, take a little bit of burden off staff because we can be consistent. We will say, "Okay, we all talked about it. We agree." Boom. We don't have to all be going to staff separately, you know, and then doing this once a month, having a bunch of questions, and then laying a lot on their plate. I think that's the way to I was going to say once a week then I thought well I don't think anyone's gonna agree with that but if if we can do this if we can if we can do this I think that that will help and let's see if it works or not right I mean I hate to just say we can't do something I hate no it's lazy let's see if we can figure out a way to make this work and as we've all just discussed it could take a year if it just takes a year hallelujah but we're on the back foot and we can move this forward, then I think that's what we're ready to do. If you if you guys are all okay with that,

Debbie likes for the record. I I think that staff has to be honest, too. If they're like, "Okay, time out. We're a little overwhelmed." Then, you know, might have to bring it back to you and say, "What else can you do to help them out?" Okay.

I also wanted to bring up um I met with some of the board members last week. Um I kind of wanted to because I feel like it's important if we're doing this and I'm learning about it, we're all learning about it. Um to kind of build a relationship with that. Um so some of the concerns that uh some of the members have was to for the LDRs, the repealed LDRs section 8.1 um kind of having that as the starting point um and building off of that. Um, and then I think we already talked about disclosing about buying a historic home and then um the enforcement of demolition from neglect

for the record and um I just I want to bring this up because I want to keep it at the front that that this isn't just about homes,

right? I mean the park the park should absolutely be part of our historic district. It's dedicated of course to the city the people of the city and it's remained that way and I think that you know if we start with something like that that's pretty easy put on the list without taking pictures and really delving into it but um that is something that I want you to keep in mind. I also have always felt like Fisherman's Village should have been the landmark at least there should be a landmark that is within our historic period because that is where everybody worked and then lived in downtown. So um you know let's just keep that in mind city clerk for the record. So just to summarize um do we have consensus of city council for the historic preservation advisory board to holding a special meeting each month in addition to their regular meeting for the purpose of working towards the certified local government designation.

You are every one of you are good with that. Yeah. Yes. All right. So staff will work with members then to figure out if there's a regular day that we could schedule that in time that would work for everyone. Um out of all of that, was there consensus among council for anything else or is that Even

I I get that. But my but I think the deal is is that um if we're going to get into special exceptions for what we're doing here, unless Let's put it this way and Sarah can clarify this. Unless we call the second meeting or the first meeting, whatever we want to call it, would be more of a workshop. We're not taking any votes. We are not making any motions. It's informative. If that's the case, would could we work it that way? Um, do you want to not have that option at the additional meeting? Would you be okay with holding the actions for the regular meeting? I'm not crazy about it, but I'll live with it.

We could like put together during the workshop a list of things that we're going to vote for and then we could expedite that during our It still will hold us. Could I offer something else? If council is okay with it, could we have the attendance policy apply specifically to regularly scheduled meetings, the regular meetings of the boards, and then if they're holding additional meetings that are outside of that face requirement. Those would not count towards the attendance requirement because then we would have as long as we got as long as we got a majority, we could still we could still vote. Um I I'm sorry to interrupt, but that would that would kind of make me happy.

Yeah. I don't I don't think having a second meeting and not allowing to have action is going to be productive. You're going to meet. Yeah. I think it would be a good idea for the board to be able to take action as well. Okay. See you guys. All right. I love So consensus for that as well. Thank you very much. David, I want to make sure that that's going to be staggered. It's not going to be two in a row meetings in case you're on a trip. I think it would probably, and correct me if I'm wrong, be more ideal if it happened about two weeks before after the regular meeting. That way you have It would be better for staff, too, right?

I imagine. Pick a day that works for you guys and we'll show up. Okay. Thank you. We're good on that subject. Yep. Awesome. Next is Historic Preservation Advisory Board decision making authority. In my mind, this goes hand in hand with the CLG.

So, we've had a lot of discussions at our board about this. We've talked with staff about this. And so I don't know how much more we have to do except that I think at our last couple of meetings jointly with y'all. You're leaning toward you said let's pursue being a preservation board as opposed to an advisory board. Um and so as we're as we're going through the stuff doing the things that we need to do for CLG going through the things also would be going through what other cities do for historic preservation boards as opposed to advisory boards. So the regulations were not you know, we're not reinventing this over here and this over here. They work in in in uh they should be working together as we go through this process. And if that's still something you guys would allow us to pursue, I don't know that we really got to get into a deep dive about that tonight because a lot of that just goes hand in hand.

That makes absolute sense to me. We're going down the CLG path. We're going to need that car for the horse. You know, you guys are already actively working on the CLG, which then Teresa Desk, for the record, um, we've talked about this for quite some time now. I would like to see this come to action so that we can really move forward. I'm concerned that the city attorney has not been here for our last two meetings because we need verbiage. We need policy and procedure in that is adamant because if we're going to be a decision making board, we have to have procedure and policy to back us up and you guys to back us up.

I would ask that if you've done some research and you have policies and procedures that you think are appropriate that other municipalities are engaging in already, if you could provide those to us, then that's what was on here. So, this is your policy and procedure. It's other people's policy and procedures. There's some that is order in here and I don't know if they're still in effect. So, if you maybe your next meeting could make a recommendation as to what you would like to see included, then we'll work it through our legal team and get it um to the point where it's ready to be presented to council and then advertised to the

Well, that's the thing is, you know, chicken or the egg thing about what we're doing here when you just mentioned ordinance, right?

So, you guys did chapter 27 like that, the vested rights thing. I mean, that was fast and furious. I'm not saying I got a problem with that. I'm saying that chapter 26 is basically what we're doing at this point and kind of elements of chapter 26 um is a slow roll. It's it's more complicated. I understand that. But I don't see um I I don't I don't I agree with Theresa about the city attorney thing because um of course that's more money and everything else but um so I don't know where we go with that but but I know that we don't want to keep slow rolling it. So and I don't want to get so far down the road on something and then have the city attorney go well oops you know my opinion is this isn't going to work and why so maybe up to him that we're working on the process and someone from his staff because I'm sure he doesn't do this all on his own, right?

I mean, he's running for isn't he running for the attorney general? Anyway, so, you know, if we could if we could have that at least city council hires the city attorney, the city manager, and the city clerk, you guys direct those three people. City manager directs everybody else in the city through the directors to staff. So, if you guys mention it to the attorney. I agree with Theres on that. Well, I think that so you put something together that I'm reading, you know, submit that to Mr. Levich and then let Mr. Levich start doing his attorney stuff and and looking at it to say this works, this doesn't work and and then we start going from there. Is that what I think of this?

He does not write the policy generally. He reviews the policy and makes changes to it. um that is typically a function of staff to actually write the policy. It is not it's not something that but I think what you're saying though is if you have policy that other municipalities are doing and just switch the name Pagort and submit it. Correct. Then that would be a good starting point right and we do have a parallegal on staff do we not? We do. Yes. And she starts the process of review and then after that it goes to attorney leaves. Was she included in the She was not

WX for the good. So again, I think Venice is the newest one, you know, to maybe take their like Melissa was saying and and say this is great, this is great, you know, make copy of that, change the name to point to board. If you don't like something, cross it off or if you have to question mark it so that you can discuss it and say this is good and then again bring it maybe to staff. I've done a deep dive in historic preservation in Sarasota because they really have a great great program and they also have had a lot of growth, right? They've had a lot of things come down. They've had a lot of neighborhoods change and um so there's all kinds like I said we don't need to do this all on our own. We can we can look as Mayor Lex has just said for examples and decide if they could fit our parameter. We're a smaller city. Doesn't mean that we have to reinvent a wheel. Just means we can pick pieces out of here from very smart folks that have that have been very successful.

All Mr. Levich is really going to do, correct me if I'm wrong, is just going to say this is legal or this isn't legal. This looks good, this doesn't look good. That's it. You guys are kind of dictating and then

well, and there's four types of historic demolitions and zoning codes. There's zoning and building codes. There is also a state, what is the Tallahassee thing I was looking at which we have to look at. Um, I put everything on my phone and now I I didn't get right to the exactly what I wanted to say here. But my point is this stuff is everywhere and it's been working for years. So if you know I know that a lot of us travel around in the state of Florida looking specifically for what is working for certain towns and how do they make it work. So, we're doing that, too. And I think staff is trying to do that, too. You know, uh we don't have to just start at ground zero.

So, is it okay that I reach out to our parallegal and get this rolling? Is this what you're looking This is your ready to rock and roll. Yes. Then, this doesn't appear to be in the format that we would It's just stuff I copy and pasted from websites and stuff, right? I think what we'd be looking for is a recommendation from the historic preservation board of what to include if it's going to be an ordinance on what the information that's going to be included in the bylaws. All of that information we're going to need to be able to have it reviewed by legal.

Let me ask you this since we're here and this is the point. I love these conversations. Do we need to get that to get you guys your your consensus or your approval before we make these recommendations? Because what I don't want to do is have us do all this work and have have you guys go, "Well, wait a minute. I I don't know about that." Because ordinances are they're on y'all. You know, you decide how we how this town is is run. So, we have a consensus.

I I think we need to think about code enforcement. I mean, this is going to be more code enforcement. Plus, we have the speeding tickets and I know that's not on the agenda, but that's going to be code enforcement. This will end up costing us money just and I think we need to figure that out or maybe or maybe making us more viable in the future. So, you're absolutely right. Every dime I mean are we are we going to are we going to spend money that's not going to bring us money back in the future? And so, you know, the ying and yang of all of that. I agree the all these things have to be taken into account

and in order to do it right and really follow through. This is I to me I would think that someone who knows how to do this would need to look at this and write it for us. I mean there's got to be David Perry for the I think that what the mayor said earlier is absolutely correct. You need to take the ordinance from Venice. You need to take the ordinance from Sarasota. checkp and see what and say hey how does this work for a small town you got the basis for for an ordinance and we take a look at it as a group I don't but I don't think that's that doesn't look like an ordinance no it's what other people

yeah but I but I think we we take it we merge it we put together we ask it give me an ordinance for specifically we review that our next meeting or two meetings whatever and then present it to the city for adoption.

And then I can try and tweak them, but I don't know what I'm doing. That's not my

Well, okay, I'm just going to interject. This is just Sarasota because there's so much information. Um, the state tools to support historic preservation building code is chapter 12. Look at chapter 12. Okay. And then there's a demolition code specifically that Sarasota has put in place and there's four there's four parameters for that. So um if I can I'll shoot this over to uh maybe the city clerk or do I shoot it to you to you? um what I have here as far as different statutes and different ordinances and how they work and you can disseminate that not disseminate that you can distribute that to the board and maybe distribute it to council if anyone's interested about what we're looking at. I know that you need one more thing to look at. I'm sure you all do. Um but but yeah, Teresa, there is Sarasota's got a really good a really good um uh four types. This is what it is. Four types of historic demolitions in the zoning code. So it's planning, it's zoning, it's preservation, and yeah, it all works in concert.

Adriana Gerky, Planner One. Um I do think that what Dr. Reichart said about bringing it up at our next meeting. Um and like we could put that exact on the agenda and we can dissect what we like, what we don't like from from that.

Charlie Noble, for the record, I do want to state a concern I have over reading this document. I saw no references to natural disasters. I saw no references to hurricanes, tornadoes, floods. And while I'm in total agreement, if somebody neglects their historic property and it falls apart, that should be uh discouraged in code enforcement, etc. But if a tornado passes over Okala and causes significant damage to some marginal properties, I don't know how Ocala would treat that because I don't think Ocala's statutes deal with in conjunction uh neglect uh demolition by neglect in conjunction with natural disasters. Now, we are like many towns, but we are also unique in that in the 50 years I've been associated with Pontagort, I've seen five major hurricanes. I don't think Ocala has seen that many, nor Tallahassee. uh Sarasota I would say would would might be my estimate that that would be a very good proxy for what they have but in particular language with respect to demolition by neglect if it stands solely uh on its own I'm I'm supporting if it's in conjunction with a natural disaster I think there needs to be uh some room for what I'll call reasonleness thank So, um, just doing a little Google search. I mean, yeah, Sarasota may almost have too much information.

Looking at Venice, um, if it was me, I mean, can we not just reach out to their historic preservation board, you know, reach out to the city and say, "Hey, who's your chair?" And then have that conversation with the chair and say, "Hey, send me your stuff." We can do that. I talked to Susan Dodd in Sarasota. Um, I reached out, I don't know, eight months ago. Like, get everything you can. usually very helpful because you know they know how hard this is. They know what a slog it is and um and so they're usually excited too to share what is successful. So yeah, we can do that. I think you'll have all your information. I mean you have you have a lot here but just on the website there's a lot more literally you can just start

and Venice probably have the natural natural disasters in it as well. In natural disers, typically with a wind event, it's going to have structural damage. With a flood event, it's rising water that can be dealt with. We all and I did it. And a lot of people in our neighborhood did it. They cleaned it up. They fixed it. And our houses are fine again. We just need furniture. I'm just suggesting that it be u something to be considered as you know to fault somebody if if their home suffers significant damage from a flood or a hurricane or a tornado. Um I don't think we can just say well oh you also neglected your property therefore you have to fix.

Well I think that's where zoning and comes in

building more money for them. But if we're walking around the hood and seeing things that need attention, we can call them and say, "Hey, look." And then that's where the information from these other cities involved and there's instances of leans on people's property that have not maintained them. But do we want to do that? Is that how we want to be? I say yes. I probably have a lot of resistance, but I I I took an oath. You guys appointed me and I'm taking this very seriously. Debbie looks for the record. I I think that's one of the things that you see in some of these older homes is that, you know, the families have not maintained it and kind of just let it go. And that's really sad to see these beautiful historic homes that might have some great history to it, you know, because of neglect. And then you have something like a disaster come through. it just kind of did the final that's it to it. So, you know, if they kept it up, could it have been preserved?

That's a good question. And Sarasota actually deals with that. They actually deal with that whole thing. And that's why I said, you know, this is not just the preservation board. This is planning and zoning. This is code enforcement. This is the building department. And we used to have a tickler list after Charlie and it was if a if a property was coming up for a CA or a demo permit or anything like that, it would be it would be tickled, which means all of a sudden it lit up the building department. It lit up code enforcement. It lit up planning and zoning. It wasn't just out of the blue. And that is something that's easy easily done if we want to do that. I mean, with it and everything now, come on, that's easy. You know, that should come up. And so, we're not always on the back foot when we're dealing with things like that. and neither are the property owners to be honest with you. So that's just something that we can discuss further. I mean I don't expect anyone to have any answer to that.

I have a question. Um are new builds that are built onto historic homes or any structure businesses whatever. So the new builds I don't recall them ever coming before us.

Yeah, they did. They used to and it would be there was 15 I think there was 15 vernaculars that were suggested so you didn't have to build a carbon copy of what you had that you lost like I had a 1915 shotgun fisherman's cottage I didn't have to build that again when I lost my home but I did have to build something with one of those 15 parameters in there and that did come in and I was chair of preservation and I'm reviewing my own house it was very uncomfortable So, um, yes, that is true. And that's something we can also change. I don't know. I haven't seen the vernacular list lately, but I'm sure I don't even know if it applies anymore with the old and the new, but that's something we're going to be looking at all these things here. So, you don't tell someone who wants to live in a replica of what they lost. I think that's crazy. But you you have an opportunity to have a a parameter of what would be acceptable in the district. Also, um, as I talked at our last meeting, block by block, if in public gordus, some blocks are closer to the to the easement and the sidewalks than others. And so it was, okay, if you've got two homes that were lost in this block, three are still there. You come up to where they, you know, where it was. A third block could be completely different. The setbacks would be different. That's how you keep the unique structures in the historic districts that look like, you know, we're doing a nod to what we had and how we can all make make it work together. We don't want cookie cutter everywhere. That doesn't make any sense. I don't think it's I don't think it's a viable thing commercially at all. I if I wanted to live in a neighborhood where everything looked the same, I wouldn't be living where I'm living. So those are all kinds of things that would be part of this process.

Debbie, let's for the one thing that concerns me is that in the downtown area, a lot of places have like zero lot lines and and I don't think that should be I'm sorry. We have to have an area for water to go instead of it just being a full coverage. So, you know, if more of the houses are like up to the street and you want to put another one up to the street, I I personally think it needs to have a set back. Well, all I'm saying is that the thought process was at the time, and this is after Charlie. So, you've got, remember Charlie went boom, took a house out, house is still there. Boom, took a house out, a house is still there. Boom, took a house out. So, the point was is that, and that's going back to the original lot lines, okay? Um, where was the house to the street? And the majority of them were set further back. And the garages, if you had one, was set behind the house because you want to have that look,

right? What's happened now? is you've got people building the zero lot lines or five feet or whatever, which is ridiculous. And and you've got um the building department, you know, saying, "Well, that's allowed." And now you're affecting other properties, especially with with runoff and water has no place to go and all that other kind of stuff. That's why I'm saying all of this has to be done in concert with not just preservation ordinance but building planning zoning and code enforcement. I mean if if we do one thing without everybody else they don't have to be involved in every single thing. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Oh no. No. I just wanted to go a little further on what you're saying. So you know you have Adriana as your liaison to HPAB Boyd as the planning director. He is responsible for all of those facets that you just mentioned. So, as you work through these processes and you identify at your special meetings and your regular meetings who you meet at the next meeting to help move you along faster and appropriately, we'll provide those staff resources at those. I'm grateful for that because I haven't seen Boyd at Boyd in a meeting. I've talked to him maybe a couple of times since he's come into the city. I'm not denigrating Boyd. Is he here? Hey, Boyd. So, yes, I appreciate that. That's a very good suggestion. Yeah, I think that would work.

That' be helpful. And then when it's to the point where it's something that needs to be reviewed by legal, we'll get it in front of legal and get it ready then for city council. I will say too, Janine, hold for the record. Um, our zoning official city quietly over there is very strict about new builds. So, trust me when I say my my um my plan went back several times to get it right. So, they do have certain set of criteria that you have to meet. Um, no sloppiness. So,

well, I'm just talking about the the look in the neighborhood, stuff like that. So, we'd have to go through the vernacular thing again, I think, as to what it looks like because there's been a lot of new builds, it doesn't look like anything. I mean, if I want to say Spring Hill Suites and Mitchell Austin said that had to go through design guidelines in downtown. Come on. It looks like any Spring Hill suite off, you know, Highway 75. So, you know, if we're going to do this, I want to do it right.

Debbie likes for the record. I wasn't sure because I see, you know, the current the repeal all these ordinances. I don't know if we are going through these to make suggestions and everything tonight because I really think this is a good start. Terry Ziggler. Um, yeah, I supplied the LDRs and so moving this discussion along. I believe we're we're now char we the board are charged with coming up with a suggested ordinance

and we should make sure that we do that at our next meeting. My question is, is that going to be the special meeting in two weeks, which I'm in favor of, but that's somebody other than myself is going to have to call that. But I believe to move this along, we we have current the current LDRs, which as it relates to a historic ordinance are pretty weak. only covers demolition and moving a structure. Somebody put a lot of effort into the 2024 LDRs and I think 8.1 154 and 163 are great starting point for an ordinance and also board responsibilities. Let's let's accomplish or let's tackle both subjects at the same time. And then The effort that Teresa has put in getting data from other other municipalities is great. Let's the next time we meet, let's uh say let's add that. Let's not add that from Venice, from Sarasota, wherever, Arcadia, Fort Myers, doesn't matter. Um, but make it an assignment. at our next meeting that we will have a draft historic ordinance and I my question is is that in the form of LDR or does that come in a different form we'll come up with something that's a recommended ordinance and recommended responsibilities

if we don't do that we don't take that on we sitting here for the next months discussing what you I think we just David for the record I think we just put it on our yeah Deb for the record I did have like the workshop and I I did give information but like Terry was saying a lot of the 8.1 in the repealed LDRs is actually very good maybe just taking out states uh traditional fun taking that out. But most of this other stuff is very detailed and very good as as something that um is great to go through.

I agree and that's why I started going through this. So I thought this was going to be part of it tonight. So I you know went through and like you said the other the current ones just kind of gives a little little blurb and it doesn't it's not as detailed as it should be. So I think there are really a lot of really good things about 8.1 in the repeals that that is very very good and same even I think with the section 15.4 I think the repealed ones had number nine in it which I again gave a little bit more detail to it. So I I agree and it's a great starting point.

Yeah. And then we can add these other municipality ideas at least at our next meeting come up with a suggested document to submit to city and and since it's all in here, you all already have it. So you can read it before your next one to see what you like and what you don't like to recommend the changes. which would help all of you a lot to be able to do the things that you want to do because then you're going to have more specifications.

What is it you guys? I think we I think we got to wait for the city to figure out when we can meet. We've got other boards. We're all meeting in this. So, that we're going to have to leave up to them and have them let us know. Okay. Planner one. Uh, your next meeting is actually the 23rd. So, it's right. So, two weeks is like that's we don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I think the city I think the city clerk's office is going to figure that one out for us and make sure that we we're not if we meet too close, we don't have enough time. It's like, why are we doing it? We're wasting everyone's time.

So, we're going to start this on the 23rd. No, we're going to have our regular meeting and then we're going to wait for the city clerk's office to tell us. I would assume we're probably going to we're in April. I'm assuming we're going to start this in May for the double for twice a month. That's my assumption.

But then do do you agree that at our next regular scheduled meeting we should make it a goal to come up with a suggested ordinance which starting with the uh LDRs 81 154 and 163 and then add or not add ideas from other municipalities most of which are going to be CLGs anyway David Perry yeah I believe we should have it on our agenda oh and by the way about the agenda thing since you brought that up you are the chair and so that would be the suggestion for staff for what's on our

agenda so Yes. So I would like to ask the staff to place that on our agenda. The chair. Thank you for pointing that out. I appre sometimes I forget.

Okay. So I I think this was you know including consideration scope and parameters. I think listening to them I think we're all in consensus with them. Is that correct? Okay. Fantastic. So last on the list today is establishment of a historic preservation fund. And just to save ourselves all kinds of heartache here, we've discussed all this stuff. That funding, the grant processes, the money we can get is really going to open up, the CLG is going to open that up for us. So, I think that we don't need to have further discussion about this tonight. If everyone else agrees with me on that, Terry doesn't. Go ahead.

Well, it's not that I don't agree. I agree uh totally in part if that's allowed to say totally in part. Um but there are other uh yes the CLG opens up a wide range of funds 50,000 here 50,000 there and that's pretty that's good money. Um but u there are other ways to to raise money and I just want to throw out some some ideas. Um the uh some of the current fee structure could be amended altered to provide additional funds for uh the historic preservation fund. Um and that would be for example increasing the u the fee to apply for a CA. currently $50 if it goes before the board and I think if we become a more regulatory board than an advisory board, we're going to be reviewing a lot more CAS. I think that fee can be increased. Also, it's a pet peeve of mine, but if someone's going to apply to demo a property, currently there's a $100 fee charge for demolition. We could suggest I would like to suggest that we could make that a percentage of the u appraised value appraised value prior to the request for demolition because obviously if something's being required to be demoed it might not have the same current appraisal value but something like

half a percent of the building value not not the we have to subtract the land value out an example I'll use my own home my own home has a fair value of 250ome thousand grateful it's that low value is 115 of that so leaving you know 100 150 and change at a half a% would be what? 600 650 $700 fee. If I wanted to, if I could justify demoing the home, I should be charged that additional fee and those funds would go into the historic preservation. And I'm sorry I added time.

No, that's cool. We've also talked about the mill rate. Teresa and Frank um Deskin talked about it at not our last meeting, but the one to four I believe about that's how Mount Dora does it. So you've got a 0.0000 whatever, whatever. And that is designated um for preservation funding. And depending on how we write these new things, um the the new ordinances, the sections, the chapters, whatever. Um all of those things are can be made available for specific funding. The problem is when we talk about the funding, we have to talk about the use of the funding. So that's where I was going into all of that. So that's element that we're going to need to to nail that.

And I think somebody when we were talking about the military, somebody brought up taxis, that kind of thing. I like that one, too. Well, I think a lot of people, Jenny, for the record, come to Charlotte County to hang out because of it historic. So, why not? And how many European do we have around here? Right. I think the county charges 5%. Right. And we've got add on we've got the tourist development uh board. Right. Right. So who's our representative? You are. So I mean so Janice Oh, Janice.

Okay. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. So anyway, these are all kinds of things that as long as we get our house in order and we can justify these kinds of things, then you know what I'm saying? We got to walk before we can run.

I just want to point out that there was some new legislation passed that we have to justify exactly what we charge for any of these building permits, um these types of things. The good news is that I think they're going to come in a lot higher than what we're currently charging, but just kind of giving that caveat. And then also the um building fund may have some restrictions upon it as to what it can be used for. So we do need to research a little further into whether or not that would be an appropriate use, but um certainly took down all of your suggestions.

And like I said, Sarasota, the same thing. If you look at this, they they get they do a deep dive into where money goes, what it can be used for, and they have different funds for different things, which doesn't mean we have to just, you know, have one big blanket where all the money just goes there. Um, because it all has to be supported obviously by the citizens you represent. You're the ones that are going to be under fire. You know, if if if we suggest something that that the community, which is, you know, you've got districts, you only have one district one, so the other four, you know, and and we I think we understand that, you know, um but thank you.

One more thing. Um at the last meeting, I know Teresa had wanted to make sure that we had our next quarterly meeting scheduled and I had to pause for a minute and get you guys the date later. Um can I suggest July 7th? It would be a Tuesday night. Thank you.

That's the night before our next meeting. Yes. Yes, it is. I know. It always is for you guys, isn't it? Yes. And that's so that I know that they're here. As you see me needing to get a caffeine here. Okay. So, are we done with that conversation? Everybody, we're going good. Everybody good with that? Okay. Do we have any comments by council members? No comments. Do any of you have any comments?

I have good news on the Freeman House. I don't know if you guys got this, but I've been talking with TJ and Donna Barrett at the CBI and they're ready to do some cleaning and rearranging and working with things and that's going to be um April 25th from 10 to and they also have on their site if you want to attend because they think they they don't need a cast of thousands. What did they say to you? Was it 12 or I got the same thing? So, it's if you want to be part of that, it's, you know, cleaning furniture, covering furniture, doing stuff like that, pulling weeds out front maybe, you know, and I just think it's we're so close. Yes. It's about time. Yes. Awesome. Thanks for the update. Sure.

So, then I guess we're going to ask for any more public input. Anybody want to say anything? Okay. We're all like staring at you like, "You ready? Okay, then with that the meeting is adjourned. Thank you so much.