Planning Board - Regular Meeting

March 18th, 2026 meeting of the municipal building  approved committee. Quickly take the role. Here and Mike Maloney I believe is on his  way. John Olirri here. Cameron Horak present.   Peter Weekes here. Susan Sterry here. Uh  Rick Chelman has other work commitments.   Renee Plumber here. Okay. And we have  councelor Beagley, counselor Cook and I,   John Taber. Um and from staff we have Paul  Beverly, deputy city manager, Peter Rice,   DPW, Joe Almea, facilities manager. JSA  we have North Sturdivan and Richard Wait from Rodney. Rodney from ADG. Mark is on there too from JSA. Oh, there we go. So, Carl, you want to leave? Uh, sure. So, um  once we get through the approval of the minutes,   um JSA will walk through just  the um the the memo and walk   you through the additional concepts in your resp. Let's see. Uh we have the minutes to approve. Has   everybody had a chance to get them? I  think one under the skylight section it says potential leads. I think it should say  potential leaks. Yes, correct. That's correct.  

Also, um any other changes? I noticed uh it  said the sportsmith room was uh not included   I believe and it is included in the drawings.  So any other changes I'm with those changes.   My only other question is why why did we skip a  meeting in August and May? Um the August meeting   the reason we're skipping is we're meeting almost  on the last day of July. So essentially we're only   still have a month between meetings there.  And so that's it's really about the timing   of the meetings trying to make sure that there's  plenty of time for them to complete work. Well,   we're going from April 29th to June 17th.  So that's quite a ways. It is quite a a gap,   but um it would be if we scheduled in May, we  would be scheduling at the end of May and then   again, you know, end of June. I think  they're trying to split the difference,   but there's plenty of time to get this work done.  You know, I don't think we're meeting enough. Well, we'll talk about um as we wrap  up, we'll talk about what's ahead and   You know you have to counterbalance  that with having significant meaningful   material to work. Can I just ask him why  do you think we are not pleading enough? our charge when when we all accepted the position,   it led me to believe we were going to  have more meetings than we've had and  

we keep pushing things off. So, we charge  to get our job done. Let's get it done.   But was at last meeting we had said something  about perhaps 26 27 is when this will finally end. We're hoping to have the work done by our  consultants starting to wrap up in the fall   and and that's the goal, but they have to  actually have time to complete the work and   to present materials to us. And we don't want  to waste anybody's time by calling people here   to meet and then not have additional materials  to offer or add additional things to review.   If we find that we have more to review, we can  absolutely add a meeting. And I and I think   that that's really important. I we're happy to  meet for more frequently if we have materials to   review. We're very good at cancelling meetings.  I'd rather have a meeting scheduled and cancel   it than have no meeting scheduled. Well,  um I think this is a a deeper discussion   than just getting the minutes approved. Um, we  have a motion on the floor. Second. Okay. All   in favor of approving the minutes. I I have  to obtain since I wasn't at the last meeting. Now, uh, so, um, Richard will walk us through, uh,   some of the updates here and then walk  you through the the concepts as well. Um,   and again I think you know wanted to make sure  that you had something and we're trying to  

make sure that walk you through to both the  answers and the concept since the last time um so like Carl said just a brief update  of what we've been what's been going on   what we're working on and and into the  concepts themselves. Since we last met,   um our primary focus was working on viable  concepts B and C that pair down the square   footage. Um as well as flushing those out more  to verify that they actually work. Going from a   spreadsheet exercise to a actual space plan  um and working with an existing building.   Um we want to go to that next level to make sure  that this space planning actually is viable which   was a helpful exercise and prove that we can  can make it work. Um our focus today would be   on the primarily the municipal side of things  on the police side. That work is ongoing right   now and we review that substance um in our next  meeting but we want to have opportunity to to   vent that with the PD and and work through greater  complexity in those spaces than on the civil side.   Um, can I ask a quick clarifying question because  I read all of this. Um, it says calculated the   one about the gross that we're figuring things  on gross square foot right now. It's on your   first this page in the column. So calculated space  needs have a grossing factor applied to determine   gross square foot actual be plus or minus. Yes.  So, does that mean like back just what does that  

mean? Like back to the studs or does that mean as  the room? So, a grossing factor is what we use to   account for corridors, thickness of walls, things  like that. So, but let's say we're looking at an   office space and we have four offices, right? That  each of those is a 100 square feet. Let's say you   need a corridor to get to the rooms. There's going  to be thickness of walls and things like that. So   if it's 400 square f feet of usable room space,  the actual square footage might be 600 because   you need thickness for walls and structure and  quarters. So what we do when we're doing is in the   spreadsheet is we'll calculate all those rooms at  a net usable square feet and we do that grossing   factor to account for all that extra the total.  And then when we actually come to laying it out,   sometimes it ends up being a little bit less  than that. Sometimes it be a little bit more,   but that those grossing factors help get us get  us in the right ballpark, I guess you could say.   Thank you. And that's particularly the case when  we're dealing with existing buildings and existing   geometry. Some things work out really efficiently  and well, some things don't. And that's where   going to doing the next level like we're showing  today with the room by room at a first pass was   a helpful exercise because it proved out that our  math some sense of reality. That's the beautiful   column for the day. Yeah. Whether they're pretty  or not, it's four square ft of space. Um, so what I'll do is I guess I'll I'll jump  right into the schemes and then as we   talk about next steps also the  other things that are going on   in the background that you don't see what  we're working on but they're in progress.

things. So when we spoke about concept concept  A last meeting, obviously the big thing that   jumped out during that meeting was the square  footage of what we were proposing which was   about 12,000 additional square 12,000 ft of new  new construction. Um you know we found that this   would work for us. It solved all the adjacencies  and we felt comfortable that it could work,   but it was obviously larger than than we had  first predicted and then we honestly expected. So,   we work to pair that down. It is important to note  though. Um, just because it's more square footage   doesn't mean that it'll ultimately be a it'll  ultimately be cheaper. New construction costs a   lot. it does, but in adding more space, that might  give us necessary swing space as we work through   phasing that we don't have to do elsewhere. Um,  and it also might mean that we don't have to   renovate as much space. We might be able to  leave portions less touched or not touched,   whereas in a denser scheme, we have to renovate  more square footage. So that renovation square   footage and construction square footage  becomes important. And that's when we get   to the end of this, that's something that we're  now trying to dive into so we can get a to our   cost estimators so we can have a pass with that  um what these costs might look like. Richard,   can I just just ask a question? You know, this  is kind of going back to our last meeting.   One of the things I left that meeting with was  that as far as the new construction is concerned,   there are in my mind there were two pieces that  were being done because of the utility that they  

brought to the to the project. One being the  vault because we don't have anything like that   now. and in order especially if we're moving  the clerk's office. But that vault gave us a   utility that we really needed in the building.  And the second thing was the meeting room. And the   idea being that we can't do that in our existing  space because if we want to have getting back to   North Point a room where we don't have these in  it, it almost requires new construction. Is that   a fair assumption of you know recognition of what  we got out of the last meeting? I think those are   definitely two of of a few key points from it.  It's not to say any of those couldn't work in   the existing building, but it is certainly not the  ideal. The vault wants to be, you know. Yeah, I   just want to make sure I was coming from the right  place. So, thank you. Yes, definitely the case.   I just could very quickly on that same topic, you  might want to put in that category. Sometimes you   put mechanical rooms and IT rooms in that category  as well because you want you want create those   spaces as new and redundant so you can just switch  over. Thank you. same time as you would really   want those to be new spaces for sure. Good. Thank  you. And that's that's why you're the subject man. Um in concept day, we reviewed the overarching  in the last meeting. So I don't think I need   to dive into it but you will see in the concept  the updated version that we gave you just that   we flush it out more improved that we feel  it works and there were smaller updates were   made throughout it but overall the concept  the same so what I'll do over to the date

that's I think I think it's 11 starting at 11. So,  thanks Richard. When it be the the lowest level um   the basement in terms of addition square footage  doesn't have any substantive change from from keep   that the same. When we go up to floor one, there's  really the key move is we reduce the amount of   addition that happens right at the front of the  building. see right here on the police department   side that's going to mean that where we had shown  records in courts in concept bay is going to need   to fit into the existing building so we're working  with the right now about how to best achieve that   what things need to shift around be cut down and  then review that with the police department to   make sure that that's viable but starting point  that's that's what would need to happen the other   thing we do that'll reflect on other floors is  down in the custodial and storage area. We have   a portion of the IT department there. Um whereas  previously we had them all in an interjoin space.   We have part of none there and that can work that  can work with the department. There's a portion of   their staff that is constantly on the road, you  know, facilitating calls and assisting all the   time. Um so those staff we've located down there  where it's easy access to a loading dock in their   storage room and the more office type functions  upstairs in their existing space. still see them.   That was important when they get a shipment of  servers or computers right at the loading dock.   They could be stored there instead of dragging  them through the whole building. And right now it   strike through the building to multiple locations  versus it'll definitely be an improvement,   but it does have some going up to floor two. um  square needed. The big move here to be able to  

take out some of that square footage is locating  the shared training room on top of the the new   Sallyport. In terms of square footage wise, it  works well. It doesn't mean that that would become   a twotory addition versus a one-story. Um which  I know may be a you know sensitive conversation,   something we can make definitely make look  very nice, but it does have a bigger presence.   How tall is that going to be since the last, you  know, double-decker? I mean, I know it was more   than that with the original plans that people are  going to complain about the view. That's not my   issue. But how tall is it and how much will it  impact? I don't have a a exact height on it yet.   I haven't we've gotten that far in figuring out  whether it's, you know, is it 20 feet or 25 ft.   Um, but yeah, I would expect that it will come  up to, you know, the bottom of the third floor,   maybe the window sills on the third floor. And  And how far out? I mean, is it going to impede   the vision from carbage? Again, I'm not I'm just  want to clarify it now or know. Now, from what   we've looked at it now, my instinct is I don't  think it would, but I haven't actually drawn a   view line from the, you know, the windows sort of  closest to the building here to see actually see   the corner cottage in this aerial view. Um, so in  terms of a straight line view at the extreme end   of the building closest to the city hall, there  might be some small impediment. We have it's not   still will be able to look up so forth from there.  believe it's much less of a of action previous fact is it will it will definitely impact it  but in a much less way than previous schemes   much less we it's a story less than probably  a half to a third the the length of before  

and I'll just make a comment you know since our  last meeting the council's basically authorized   another two million spending unrelated to this  we're in a really challenging fiscal environment.   So things like if we beat you a little bit,  they're really not to the overall we have to   find a plan that is financially viable. And if  we get distracted by worrying about, you know,   how how a second story looks on a little bumpout,  we're we're not going to get to what we need to   get to, which is a economically viable police  station. I agree with that. But that so I think   we should focus on those. We have to be prepared  to that's one of the major things that happened   last time. So if the community is going to raise  up in arms against it, we should discuss it. I'm   not necessarily discuss it, but be aware that  that's a potential. Yeah. And a reason a reason   that we have this committee is that each of  you as citizens have different viewpoints   and that we're testing these ideas with you and  volunteer to help us do that. That's important.   The charge of this committee is to come up with a  plan that we can recommend that not only improves   the police station but includes the inadequacies  and the utilities in city hall and the space   requirements. So see deputy city managers Weber's  comments about dragging servers from the loading   dock to various places throughout the building.  Yeah, that seems like an untenable way to work.   I'm not a server mover professionally, but it  sounds untenable. To your to your point though,   one of the things that as we start getting into  the massing of the building, what it's going to   appear at, we start sketching some internally,  but Oh, yeah. There would be views of what what   this obviously would look like. And the other  thing we could do, I think relatively easily is,  

you know, take a photo from within the cottage  building or, you know, close to it. I say, "Okay,   here's your view. Now, here's here's what  would be obstructed. So, that that's clear.   I think that's a very reasonable thing that I  think you want to see, right? And um and again,   I just know that that's going to be a subject  that comes up. So, we should be aware of it. So,   we can handle it with the public since this  is going to have to be sold to the public. So,   um we also have to be mindful of the view lines  coming across the pond too from the other side.   Yes. So, whatever we do that that camouflages  an addition to make it look like the existing   building would be helpful, I think. Good point.  So, would you say we're like a third of the   way out to the flag pole? Uh, not even when  you picture even where the salary port was,   there's parking spots there now. And so,  this is just that's the area right there,   right where where the those three parking spots  are. That's the footprint. Yeah, it looked like   it only took up two of the three spots. I think  I think there's what? Four. I think there's four   there right now. Four. Three of the four. Um, I  wanted to highlight something about this plan that   I thought was nice on this floor. the addition of  a conference room that wasn't in the prior plan   that sits um kind of over to the side near the  registar welfare health and and the reason I'm   highlighting that I I realize that that's probably  shared for those departments that's the way we've   accomplished that but that could be used by the  public as well and we know how limited space is   this room in particular so we there is a benefit  to having an additional conference room. Are you   talking about the one at the main lobby? So the  one over by read to the registar. I'm sure it's  

designed to be a staff shared space, but but it  would have public exactly where the current vault   is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our intended always been  to have some some more conference rooms on this   floor that obviously would be predominantly used  by staff but would be public use as well compared   to ones that might be in departments that are  much more isolated. Can I just ask something?   You were talking about that conference room.  There are two toilets on either side to be well you know. Yes. because of a conference room.  You're hearing the toilet flushing. Yeah. No,   but that's that we can address very easily. That's  not to say that they thought, "Oh, boy." We look   at some of the same. Right. Right. Right. For a  quantity and distribution. So that like you said,   we don't don't forget them. Does that show also  right by the conference room? Is that elevators?   Those are the existing elevators. Existing that  that would remain So in in in this all the schemes   that we're carrying right now, we're maintaining  the existing elevators, the two here and the one   in Cable, as well as proposing a new one right off  the off the new main lobby that then can bring you   up to those upper floors. And for those of you  that want to put eyes on that conference room,   it's right there. It's that brick box that's  right there. It is currently the actual room.   Yeah. And just just to point out on the option A,  it did have a conference room for that health and   welfare. It's just between them. It's smaller.  This is a nice location. And then this is for   public access. It's a really nice That's the the  blue is the registry. So it has storage. Yes.   Right. Right. At some point, will you explain why  they're seeing now the the the floor plans ghosted  

beneath all these colored areas? That makes a  big difference because we had they hadn't seen   that before. True. And it's important. It's an  important change. One of the things that we're   starting to refine our thinking on is a sort of a  anticipated level of renovation places that we're   going to be more or less relaying out in spaces  that would be minimally touched potentially.   at all paint minimally if at all. How much  is to be determined, but that would be the   general intent. So some of those types of spaces  we've started to to show the existing floor plan   beneath. So you can see the the chief space for  example here and HR here. Those are spaces where   we're showing the existing layout as it stands  today. And we would intend to keep it that way. So   when we look at square footage cost of renovation  that would be zero to little versus obviously   more all mechanical stuff happening essential  layout and floor opposed to the you know sort   of why is there a range in the square footage if  you leave a space alone it may not be perfectly   efficient so you're using more square footage  but the cost would be low because you're not   really doing a lot of renovation to that space  that's the that's the the balance we play why   why we'll estimate multiple options. The thing  to keep in mind right now though is this is space   layout. This is not construction. This is  not how much mechanical stuff we change,   how much we you know we paint rooms or anything  like that. It's really how are things going to   fit. Yeah. And then that further discussion  is as Richard pointed out will play into the   costing out and and option A which has a  larger square footage may be cheaper than   other options because you you one swing space  two you don't necessarily touch as many things   um in terms of renovations and things like that.  So it's just you know keep a keep an open mind   relative to you know how things are going to play  out. Um it's really to show that here are the pros  

and cons and here are kind of the the give and  take of layouts. Um the the only other comment   I would I would make on this on this concept or  two comments I make is one we retain a vault John   um we retain a new vault addition off the back of  the building and then the one said how much of a   compromise it is or isn't for yourself is the  point of service. When you look at concept A,   the point of service is all centered right when  you enter the lobby. You enter, testers right to   your left, tax and clerk are right to your right.  It's all immediately right there. As we start to   compress the amount of additional square footage  down, those start to get stretched out a little   bit. So now the assessor space has moved back  adjacent to where conference room A is. Tax and   clerk stay here. So again, they're still off the  lobby, but they are spread out a little bit more.   And you'll see that furthermore when we look at  concept C. Um just going up to floor three for   this concept. Um the main way that we save space  in this concept is really how we create floor   three and start the IT department by splitting  the IT department up. We move part of them down   to the to floor one and then we've retained part  of them in their current space on floor three.   What that's meant is that building and planning  get pinched a little bit. We feel it can still   work, but now where we had sort of conference room  spaces in each of their sort of wings that kind of   work nicely, those need to become shared amenities  shared more. Hence the, you know, the diagonal   hatch because it's about a thousand square feet  of space that that we needed to figure out how to   absorb. Um, I think it that's an area where we can  where we can make it work and it feels to me it   feels viable and can still work operationally.  I think there's some tweaks to lay out,  

but generally I think it can, but it is a little  more a little more squished than it was in concept   A. And the thing to note is that elevator right  from the lobby goes up to this sort of essentially   point of service for building and planning at that  level. That concept remains remains throughout   all of us. It's the it's the shared sort of  conference the shared conference space that   um it's I think yeah compromised a little bit if  you will. You know one of one of the things that   we sort of discussed with planning and building  departments was in the move from going from   offices to more like or smaller workstations was  having some smaller conference rooms to people for   people to facilitate the numerous conversations  that currently just happen in their offices. So,   we had planned on multiple smaller conference  rooms. That number's come down a little bit from   what we carried in the SNA. Um, it's not far off,  but we're down, I think, two two and a half. Can I   ask um the elevators? Are the elevators going to  be private? Private being like staff only. Well,   just for the detectives, I I'm just thinking  have these open elevators and for security have them on card swipes. So, so you no one can  get into the PD unless they're their IDs in the   program. They could employ that same method.  Yeah, probably. I could see that being where   it's Yeah. Yeah. Could you identify the lost  conference space? I'm looking at concept C has   five conference rooms. Conference, concept B has  five conference rooms. So, I just I'll use B as   the reference here. So essentially what we have  in concept B are two large conference rooms in   this wing here and here as well as four smaller  ones. 1 2 3 four. They end up being actually a   little bit bigger than our SNA called for because  of the existing building but they're four smaller  

ones. Um we originally intended for and sorry two  large ones and basically four small ones whereas   in concept A we had two large and six small. It's  worth noting that we're showing basically it and   building sharing that larger conference room.  Again, they're all shared amongst all staff,   but in terms of allocated spaces. So, call  it if you included it, it was three big and   six small in concept A and we're down to two  big and four small. We have green right now,   minimal changes to the floor plan. Actually,  probably the most is in the building department,   but a lot of the floor plan already is configured  like this. Sorry if I botched that description.   I have a question around uh conference space for  the building department. Um I'm I'm just ignorant   of this because I haven't been in a meeting on  that side. Do they have a separate conference   room even now? They do not. So if they need a  couple years ago, we broke that up into offices.   They had one up until two years ago because that  planning space currently is used frequently but   it's the only one. Correct. It's so right now  if they need to have a you know an allstaff   meeting and it's used up there they just meet  in the hallway. Um they meet in here for their   full step they had it today. I was part of their  meeting that they meet in here. It's yeah they   don't have one. So that's it would be ideal.  And then the other thing they do is they'll   have each of the inspectors might have meetings  with you know contractors you know oneonone or   such of that those currently happen for the most  part in their offices and that's where the small   conference rooms came in as a way to facilitate  facilitate that keeping the director's office. So   Oh yes that that can still happen that can still  happen. Okay. Correct. Okay. Yeah. And that's the   case that in in any of the departments um we  always keep the you know the director of each  

department in in a in a private office. It's um  other staff where in some cases we've looked to   move to a workstation model. But that's all  been item things that have were discussed in   our meetings with those departments about what  what they felt would or wouldn't be tenable in this concept. floor four somewhere  with concept a legal city for school the   division a minimal a minimal touch it's  really just for finances moving up to   where the where the health department  currently is where there's probably   going to need to be more reconfiguration  just because there's a lot more people that's good news so much of  that floor remains the same concept see down a little bit more and  really what that where that   shows off is on two where I'm going to go to start you'll see what remains the same between D and C is how  we're dealing with the shared training room   and that fronting entry different and  human resources so you'll see that in   In this concept, we're not showing a bold attitude  to the side of the building. Instead, we're   showing it happening within the cable building.  Not ideal from a vault, but in the interest of   trying to compromise, we could consider. The  other thing is that in in doing that and being   able to keep the vault near the clerk, we now  need to look at relocating human resources. So  

in concept being human resources, we essentially  minimally touched untouched. We now be moving them   over where health and welfare are on the left  um so that we can keep tax and clerk all all in terms of point of service. The other thing  is that those windows being able to fit the   number of windows that we're ideally looking for  now get located along kind of the existing cybol   corridor. So versus being right on the lobby,  you'd come into the lobby, come into the elevator,   to your left would be assessors, and then to your  right would be the corridor with the windows sort   of lining it. Think again things get stretched out  a little bit more. But in terms of overall space   program, all the pieces are accounted for on this  floor. But the vault is a is a compromise. Carl,   between option B and C, is there a meaningful  difference in the departments that are being   moved andor what's being added from an operational  standpoint? Is one better for you? I I think the   it'll come down to the how we want the point of  service to work and what the cost benefit will be   on some of the boards. I think we may find that  you know this this may require more work on the   first floor but doesn't give you an ideal point of  service. Um yeah, I think the so those are things   that we're going to weigh as we get into the the  next round. Yeah, I guess what I'm getting at is   in terms of who works together, like HR being over  by welfare and health and and that reconfiguration   of who's working next to whom and what that means  in terms of the day-to-day workflow of your staff.   Is one of these concepts and the way that these  folks are colllocated or not better? I think we   can we can look at that and see those dollars  aside, that's obviously the other consideration  

here. I think the key adjacencies are retained  in both pretty much in in in all of these the   location of HR on this floor whether it stays  to the right stays left is not I think critical   what's important to them is they're together and  preferably on this floor because they do get foot   traffic from staff coming from other buildings  interviews things like that so it's ideal for them   to be down here but whether they're by health  or welfare or over there is not that adjacent   isn't critical. Health welfare together critical  tax and together critical and the vault piece is   that a big issue operationally I side I think  it's going to be the again in a perfect world   we build a vault that is built for to be a vault  not not sort of retrofitting something I think   the for storage of those things again we'd have to  worry about moving pipes and other things in those   building so I think the what we may find as we  get into this a little bit more is the adjacencies   are here. It'll be which flows better for  the public as well, which would be a big   consideration. And I think that part of the goal  is making it easier to access the services right   off the lobby. And I think that's a that's that's  what we're eyeing towards operational. Thank you.   And and as I raised before, I you know, my one  of my concerns is is the vault. And the fact is   that you know again listening to the subject  matter experts talking about you know the   environmental aspect of of of uh maintaining the  documents etc. uh I don't want to give that up if   uh if we're not comfortable that the alternative  will provide the level of protection that we need.  

So that's just an overall concern. Assume you had  something. Uh yeah, I was just curious because I   um when I was on some other committees, I worked  with Kelly and went to the vault quite often. How   but I never thought to ask her how often does the  city clerk have to go. I'm on an average. I mean,   well, I can tell you, sorry to jump in and ask,  but we're we're doing some renovations to their   space right now. just finished his new carpet  and paint and um they've told us throughout the   duration of any work we do in there, they they  need to and they they're in there daily. They're   and they never know when someone's going to show  up from travel from a distant place and say,   "I'd like a copy of my birth certificate, for  example." So, they um they need that at their   fingertips every day, all day. I wasn't sure that  because I was researching really old stuff that   was Yeah. the adjacency to where their point of  service is and their workstations is important.   It's not like we can say we're going to locate the  vault offsite or you know on the other side of the   building they have those two stay connected for  what for how they use the vault. When we get very   nervous when we talk about moving the vault they  don't like the idea of vault being moved but they   know it has to. Yeah. Well, it'll be better. Yeah,  it will be better. Will it be will it be somewhat   bigger than what the space is? Yes. So, what we're  what we're showing right now in in our SNA is   um basically I think doubling the size of the  vault. And the reason is is there's a lot of   things that they have currently in the downstairs  archive that really want to be up here. Yeah. But   can't be because they're out of space. Um so  that was in reducing the archive down there.   We're moving items into here. Thank you. Um I  just had a question on um the point of service   between the clerk's office and the tax in this  plan. They're right next to each other and   um I've seen days where there's just a nice  queue down the hallway. Um does this take  

into account the space needed for some of those  lines because we do actually get quite a line   sometimes. One of the reasons why we're sort of  colllocating is to be able to have some flexible   space when it comes to windows. So in a busy  season with one you could open more windows   and a busy season with other you could open.  So that's part of why you're seeing these in   a collocated space. Um we're trying to deal with  the fact that the the customer flow es and flows   throughout the month or the year. We're trying  to figure out the best way to do it. We thought   initially is put it all in the same space so  you can have flexibility in those windows.   And then in terms of the queueing, I think that  is one of the things that you in this concept see   pairing down the square footage again trying to  compress things is that that queuing happens in   a more narrow corridor compared to A and B where  it's much more adjacent to the waiting space in   the lobby. So you have a little bit more breathing  room for that queueing. Um so that's a definitely   a spot on and that's that's the one of the  compromises. Richard, can you pull up the option   B that shows there? Absolutely. I can actually  Do you want to see them both side to side? Wow. You can do that. I know. So, B will be on the left. C will be on the right.  I'll cut off HR a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry.   Hold on. I need to reshare. It's sharing one  window and not the whole screen. So, apologies. There we go. So, let me pull this. There we go. So, in option B, the queueing would  be Can you can you point out? So, is Yeah. So,  

here's the windows for taxing clerk. Here's  windows for assessing. So you would have   queuing either you probably have some waiting  seats here, waiting here, but it's all close to   where the windows are are located. Um in CQing in  the hall, right? if we're queuing unless there's   a model like similar to um you know BMP TV where  you you know pick a number and then you go sit   and they say okay number five and then and then  you stand up and go in which case you might be   able to reduce the queueing that would happen here  because people know okay I wait here and when my   number's called I that would be a way to I think  help reduce some of that inadvertent queuing that   occurs but C also has some challenge more security  because of the crossing of the corridor, the   public corridor for the clerk's office to go into  conference rooms and to go into the vault. There's   a lot of like I'm going to have to leave the  secured space, right? We you end up with a sort of   we treat this as sort of like the front of office  where anyone who's made in the windows dayto-day   is here and then the vault clerk's office that  are more behind you know back house or star stay   here and you do have to sort of badge in badge out  sort of which can be done but again is there's a   less than 90 right versus in A and B where you  have sort of a contiguous staff space and then   public space around to say there isn't other ways  we could work work any of these options, but at   the end of the day, reducing the square footage,  you're going to have to start to split things up and less less available space. How wide are the corridors? We haven't measured  out. We' still keep In this in this side building,  

I think they're around sevenish feet or so.  And we' probably keep that this keep that the   same for in this building. There's columns that  are in those walls. So So what if somebody's in   a wheelchair? You can still obviously if there's  a a huge queue in the corridor that becomes much   more challenging, but it's pretty. What is the  material made in the vault? What is it made of?   Is it a special type of material that is made  that's melted with? Not necessarily like it's   not like um not necessarily like a bank vault  where you I mean it's it can be but it's um it's   more that the room is um fire rated usually not  just like a one-hour tour you're going like three   um you keep all pipes and really anything wet out  of there. So you do a chemical suppression system   um and that it's very secure ventilated. Sorry.  It was Mcbr too. As part of the fire suppression,   there would ventilation shut off to um resist  spread of fire and smoke. I like the idea of   the waiting room with the number system. Um the  line for like registering your car and stuff can   be long and it's not so easy for some people to  stand in that line. So, I almost see this as an   improvement over what we currently have and we  don't have to stick to this model of long lines   and hallways. We're looking at those systems.  Some other communities have adopted that where   you come into the first area, you say what you're  here for. You get a ticket and then the number   just pops up and and they found the DMV has done  that too and they found that sitting and having   a number and waiting for five minutes is better  than queuing up in a line and and waiting. So,   I think that that's a great point and we're going  to look at that as part of what we do. I mean,   anybody that's disabled that or that has mobility  issues, it's a huge improvement. Uh my father's   in a wheelchair and if he lived in Portsouth,  for him to get service, he just wouldn't come.  

He'd send my mother. So, he doesn't. But  if he send you, what's that? We send you that but that's why part of it is I don't accept  those duties. I have other tasks I do for them.   Part of the trade-off. All the other adjacencies  are there. One of the focus is does the point of   service meet the need? which one meets the need  in a more improved way and I think that's a good   thing to be thinking about it and what other  things can we add to improve that service to   the public as well% I also think that just  not being on top of each other right there's   a designated waiting area you go sit down  for people that are still working you can   fire off some emails read a book it's just such an  improved experience versus standing in line what   is it going to look like where people are going  to be sitting is that the waiting room to the   I think that's what we're discussing. Yeah, we  have seats and areas that you could sit and work   on things while you're waiting. Nice. So, between  these two where the waiting room is is one further   away from the windows are actually going to be.  Looks like they're basically redistant. I don't   have a slide ruler. So, yeah, they're they're  similar. It just on here. You can pace it out.   Count the tiles. I think the biggest difference is  when you come into the lobby, one option has the   windows right readily available. The other one you  have to go up and around the corner to get to the   service. That's the biggest difference. I think in  a in a queueing in a in a in a ticket type system,   either one can probably viably work because  you'd come in like in concept C for example,   you can get your ticket, maybe there's a desk  there or something, get your ticket and then   you know, okay, I need to come down here. Um, but  in a non Type system, the lobby and the windows   being right there is I think a big plus. Plus,  there's a kiosk system that they use like that.  

Jesus is looking at the wind. Can I just ask a  a general question? Um, what are you looking for   us to do? Is this feedback helpful? Is that what  the purpose of what you were looking for today?   I think all the conversation, the concerns, the  things that maybe catch your eye is very helpful   as we continue to go through and refine these  three designs, these concepts. Then I think you   know once you get to the next phase more feedback  around sort of you know the the price tag, the the   the look, the feel, the functionality. So I think  what we what's been helpful is when all of you ask   questions, we go back think about it and then say  okay should we make some refinements to it? So it   is helpful. Okay. So the input that you get today,  how does that translate into what we get next? So   there's there's things we already know we we are  going to do next sort of regardless of the input,   which is cost phasing. There's those next  steps. Um, I think Susan's points about the the   um the the view corridor, if you will, the the  view if you have a twotory edition versus one,   that's something on our mind, but that's  something we will make sure is is very clear. Um,   because if it's clear to you, then hopefully it's  clear to, you know, any members of the public who   are viewing this as well. Um, and honestly,  I think also just the questions you ask,   then if members of the public are coming back  and viewing this, we're hopefully answering some   of those questions that they're going to have  without it being asked, you know, having to be   asked 20 other times. Okay, good. Thank you. So,  like, you know, why is this vault so important?   What does it actually mean to be a vault? Now  it's now it's Sam. Um, in concept B, I like the   fact that we're utilizing more existing space  without renovation. Leaving HR where it is cuts  

down on costs and it might be less expensive to  build a freestanding addition for a vault rather   than retrofitting space for a vault. So, um, I'm  sure this will come out in our next meeting when   we get some pricing, but I think being mindful  of of using as much existing space as possible here kind of in retrospect, what you're saying is  when you come back with your estimates, it would   be good to break it down. What are the costs to  upgrade the electric service, the HVAC? It doesn't   work now. What is the cost of construction for  the police area? What's the cost of improving the   municipal space? So that the whole thing together  will be a big number but each individual thing   will be things that need to be done whether you do  you know do it all at once or do it in phases want   to see the menu right we're going to have levels  of of cost estimates as we refine our design   um so I think what we're going to be presenting  next time will be more about the there would be   different types of spaces. Is this a space that  doesn't have a lot of renovation? The estimator   is going to say this is X dollars per square foot  for the stuff that's in green. And if it's in red,   it's going to be, you know, Y dollars and so  forth. That's still more of an overall um order   of magnitude type thing, but as we get to a point  where we're thinking about designs and phasing  

those answers um will become more more obvious  and I think I think that that that's going to be   necessary as a sales tool. What's your contingency  on your fe on a conceptual level the next stage   you know is plus or - 20 plus or minus well the  you know a conceptual estimate is going to have um   a percentage built into it to account for growth  and stuff that account for mechanical account for   all those things but what are you what are you  carrying to our estimators obviously Yeah. What   they what number they feel the point bringing it  up is you're looking for a really precise number.   What north is saying is that it's not going to be  precise right now because it's not a full design.   So what what we'll be what we'll be bringing next  meeting is what we call a rough order of magnitude   estimate where they're basically doing it at a  cost per square foot. What we're going to do is   we're going to take these plans take a first stab  at phasing and levels of renovation reviewing that   with Peter Joe Carl team. see, okay, do we agree  like this is what we anticipate we might need   to do, what we might need to do, sort of get our  assumptions out there, give that to our estimator   based off here's the level of renovation for this,  level of renovation for this, so they can put a   cost per square foot to it. And they're going to  take, you know, take their they're very good at   what they do, but they're going to take a stab at  it off of incomplete information off of what we   know to date. To that end, I just wanted to share  what Rick Shelman, who's not able to be here,   he did send an email and said, I think it we  use to have a summary chart of the options so   folks can know what is gained and lost with each,  including some rough estimates for dollars. So,  

in other words, you can I think he's saying what  is what's gained, what's lost, what can you Can   you describe a price to that email to Kyle so  that they have it and I think that's that that   would be again feedback that's helpful that makes  a lot of sense that we could present that gains   and losses on each there's a bunch of detail by  the end of the day here's the executive summary   concept A B and C here's what we think they might  cost at this point in time can we put that on the   dashboard can it just be another column on this  because this this document is becoming more and   more useful and we're getting used to it and  maybe maybe that information should live on here   Try see if it becomes too many if there's too many  numbers on it or not but just add another table   and drop it below or something like that. Don't  go crazy. Just cuz one other thing I wanted to   make sure before we we lost sight of that if you  compare option B to C on the next floor up there   is a cost there's a loss in the protective space.  So again I think that summary of each would be   really helpful so you know that what's gained in  this option what's lost in that option. And and to   that to that specific point about the what we're  showing and you said I don't personally know yet   whether whether doing that is viable. I think  that's something that we're we're considering   is okay could this work as a way to do can we  take a little space out of there so that we're   not pinching building and planning quite so much.  But I don't know on the police side whether that's   truly viable. Personally, I think from just a  clean space planning, it makes sense to just take   that wing and say detectives and we know there's  that's kind of a area that has growth, but we   wanted to put that out there and that's something  we're working through to see whether that could   actually work, but I I don't have my heart set on  that act that Yeah. I'd more preferred the giving   detectives that whole thing. It's just clean. At  what point in the costing process pricing process  

do you start factoring in what it will take? Let's  say phase one. Yeah, this is just a hypothetical.   Phase one involves the police station. Um to  what extent do you know what where the police   need to be re relocated while that's being  done? transitional cost, right? We we have to   try to factor that in now because that that can  definitely swing the number quite a bit. When I   first talked to our estimators a long time ago,  he said, you know, rough rule of thumb though,   devils in the details, renovation might cost 10  to 20% less than new construction, but once you   start accounting for phasing and swing space,  those can become pretty close to each other.   So what we're what we're going to do is, you know,  starting immediately following this meeting is   taking the concept as they stand right now and  working through the first pass of what could   that phasing look like. It's going to change.  It's not going to be perfect for everything,   but just enough to say like, okay, this might work  so that our estimators can start to price off of   something. It'll continue to evolve, but that's  something we need to try to account for now.   And will there be in that process back and forth  with for example the police department? Oh,   absolutely. And one of the things that we think  we realized was it's easier to keep the PD in the   building and move other people out because we  can better secure this. So that's part of what   we're looking at is how would we phase that?  And that might mean displacing a different   department temporarily while you're using that  as swings or based on what options are picked,   you might have some built-in swing space that you  could create and then secure. if so that's I'm   asking about phasing as well I mean clearly the  first floor space is mostly PD so that can be done  

without truly impacting a lot of other departments  as much um you know unless you're moving people   out to have swing space but that once you  get to that third floor space um you have to   move building plan in order to do the additional  space and you know that's that becomes much more   complicated. I think it's the first floor space  mostly PD will have a big effect uh as it's being   done on a police department. Absolutely. Oh no,  there's doing renovation in occupied building is   never easy. It can be done. It's done all the time  but it's not it's not easy to do. But that's why   we when we give our our estimators this package to  start pricing you know the next week we're going   to take a first pass at phasing us Peter say okay  here's what we think might be viable start pricing   this and then we're going to continue to refine  our thinking we're going to meet with the PD to   go over also the detailed space plan like we've  done on the municipal side today we're working on   that for the police department right now and then  need the opportunity to review with the police   department get feedback while that estimate still  happening. So there's multiple things happening   at the same time. But if we do this first pass,  again, this gets us a rough order of magnitude,   gets us in the ballpark of where do we stand? And  also by breaking down that phasing, we can then   start to look at, okay, if that number is more  than we know is going to be tenable for doing   everything, where can we where can we where can  we chop it for this project? And then, you know,   maybe we find phases one through five have to  happen now and that fits into this bucket and   six and seven are ones that could become future  future things to be able to spread that that out. Um, just last time we talked about  it and this question for Carl,  

have we put to rest the idea of moving the  school? because I look at HR and I look at   um health and I know we want to keep welfare near  the with the police and it just seems like that's   really valuable real estate that could be used for  the police or for for Hey Carl I didn't bring it   up. We had they had a little w but you did I  think you know the city manager always looks   at operational needs and where people should be  located. I think one of the things that we know   is there's a lot of the the staff in the school  that has to do with payroll financing and other   things that you want to sort of stay adjacent  to finance. Uh so we're we're looking at that,   but there's a bulk of that operation that really  is consistent with the financial operations. So,   you know, she's still looking at that and and  coming up with what alternatives might exist one   day, I think. But part of it is there's a lot of  those functions that are really should be adjacent   to finance, not in an elementary school somewhere.  You know, because they have a payroll question,   they have to come over versus, you know, someone  right down the hall. That may be an answer for   the three council people who makes a decision  on how the building's being used. Just seems   really valuable in a big chunk of space. Okay. You  know, one of the other things is if you let's just   say pick up on that. Let's just say that space  became open. Does that really save any money?   I mean, bottom line is that as I understand  it, and you know, we've talked about it there,   we have some new construction that's going to  have to take place because you can't do it in the   existing build. So, opening up that space, does  that really save any money? And the other part  

of it is that which we talked about a little bit  the last time is that if we were if they were they   because it's not us if they were to move school  out where do they move them and how much does it   cost to get them in there? I think the analysis we  haven't looked at is it's not a you know it cost   nothing to move them and when you reclaim the  space there's a cost associated with that with   security and other things because now you have  public access in a school and what would that look   like other than a regular office um and and we're  keeping them in a space that doesn't really need a   lot of renovation. So you'd have to compare that  to what would it be to sort of, you know, do a   renovation to something to to house it. And one of  the reasons I keep looking at it too is, you know,   when we talk about flex space, if that space was  empty, that would create a flex space before we   moved anything there in the building. You could  do the same thing with finance, you could do the   same thing with any of the other departments, you  know, set them to a flex space and just do that.   So I mean I I I this is a question that's come up  multiple times and we and we will clearly identify   where in the city charter it clearly spells out  city's manager responsibilities um and rules. I   think it's important to remember too that building  this this sally port with that big training room   provides you significant if you do it first you  have significant shift space and as much as we   haven't talked about it the council chambers can  be used for office shift space there's no reason I   mean it's it sounds awful but there's no reason  city council can't meet in conference room A   um it would be a little crowded we'd have to make  sure enough people got in to you know here but we   couldn't make adjustments. The city council could  also meet at the middle school or the high school.   High school. Yeah. You can move people some  of these meetings off site and utilize some  

of these bigger spaces as shifts. Community campus  library. Exactly. We we've we've fit this room out   multiple times temporarily for departments. This  this very room we've fit, you know, eight eight   to 10 staff in here before for a short period  of time. U whether it was COVID or renovating   spaces. So this is where um having at least as  we do our our multiple passes but especially our   first pass of phasing and moving people around  where this expertise is super helpful because   you've lived the Y doing work within this building  many times before and you're going to have to live   with this decision. Come on. Could I could I ask  that we have some sort of procedure here? I mean,   people are just jumping in and it gets very well,  it doesn't get confusing. It's just not a regular   meeting. I feel like sometimes this becomes  a free-for-all and everybody just speaks up   when they want to speak up. I'm trying to follow  what subject we're doing and and why we're doing   that. And with everybody just jumping in, it  just doesn't seem Well, let's ask that people   be recognized to speak. Yes, I would appreciate  that. My my question is and I ever since I've   come even before I was on the committee why the  school area has become such an issue because I   don't hear even with these plans that we need  all that extra room for anything at least not   in the next 20 years. So could someone explain  to me why we want to free up that space? Because   what is so pressing that we need to have that  space for operations here in the in your home? Well, I think if you add square footage without  adding new construction, you've gained square  

footage. But how much new con? Well, I know  the front is talking about new construction.   I mean I it's like do can we get a plan that says  if we get rid of the Sally well not the Sally port   but the rest of it and uh we can utilize that  space. I just don't see so far the options that   we're looking at are small additions that sort of  incorporate in the functional the functionality   that's needed for the PD sally port booking other  things and the point of service and a vault those   are the those are the areas that really come  this additions the rest is just reconfiguring   space that's there you can uh I don't know if  it shifts a lot because a lot of things we're   trying to gain is really on that first floor  uh and the PD operational space by freeing up   some other I I can see why this question is  is an important one um only because as much   as we want point of service for everyone on the  first floor we are putting in an elevator that   provides access for point of service and you  could technically put health welfare and this   registister's office in that existing space where  schools are now and use that space for the shared   training group potentially, although it's going  to have columns just so everybody's aware. Um,   but there there it is feasible. So, I think  that that's one of the questions that's kind   of outstanding is maybe you don't need to build  a shared training room in above the sally port if   you can put it there next to the chief's space  on that second floor and but then that's not   as good of access for health and welfare. So,  it's an outstanding question. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.  

Um um as as you're drilling down more on uh in  more detail on the uh police department space,   uh one of the things I learned and I think others  learned about uh Dover is that um there needs to   be decent separation between social worker  space and detective space or patrol space.   they can't just be necessarily right adjacent to  each other u for a lot of privacy reasons. Um,   so I just want to let you know that and and we  are, you know, knock on wood the benefit of the   executive council coming out uh the right way.  Uh soon we'll have two social workers rather than   one social worker and and it's anticipated that  that it's not a department now, but that effort   in policing will grow rather than shrink. So, just  keep that that's kind of a separate space. You may   be able to draw a line somewhere or a hallway or  something in the detective space. I I got you guys   can drill down better on on where it would go,  but I think it's important to understand that. Um, other questions and comments. Thank you.  Thank you. Yeah. So, I guess just to kind of to   beat the dead horse a little bit more, like when  we talk about things like the point of service   and these improvements, the additions, the way  I'm looking at it is we're going to bond this   for say 20 years and it's going to be x amount  of dollars per year per household. You know,   if the point of service being better, which I  would say most residents would appreciate that,   if you you attach to that statement is now going  to cost you $50 a year more in taxes for the next  

20 years. And and the answer to that might be yes.  The answer to that might be no, but I'm trying to   think of not like, okay, we we've got this ideal  city hall and police station and and everything   works beautifully. But we have to recognize that  there's a financial cost to that and there's so   many competing interests for money throughout the  city now more than ever with the changes at the   federal and state level. We have to kind of put a  price tag on all these or at least in my opinion,   we have to put a price tag on this. And then  we go to the community and we say, you know,   we can make a beautiful point of service. We can  have a sit down waiting room. we can have this,   but it's roughly going to cost this much more in  taxes. Or we can go with option B and you know, it   won't be as nice and it'll you'll still be waiting  in the hallway, but it'll cost this much less. And   I mean, my experience in Portsouth is that people  are typically willing to pay um not happy to pay,   but they're willing to pay for improved services.  And you know, I think most of our residents really   appreciate the the the services that the city  offers across the board and the quality of the   schools and and DPW and the police and the fire  and and they're willing to pay for that. But I   think we have to ask that question. Okay, this is  going to cost x month x amount of money. Is that   the best use of those funds because it's competing  with everything else in the city? And that's why I   keep beating the dead horse of, you know, space.  And and I think the other thing we see like Luz   just mentioned with the social worker, we're never  going to have enough space. Like there's always   going to be some reason why we could use an extra  50 square feet for for storage or another office   or, you know, as the city continues to grow. Space  will always we probably won't have dead space,   so to speak. Rene, is there a chance that this  never goes anywhere? It's not voted and it just   stays the same. Absolutely. Yes. So, so this is  the the challenge is that we have to find be able   to make a recommendation to the council that is  approvable. So, um and I I think that that's a  

critical function of this committee. If if we make  a recommendation that's not, it won't go anywhere.   So, so and and it depends on depends on this  overall environment at the time, right? You know,   right now financial situation is not fantastic  for the city and um unless some things change, we   need to be as conservative as possible probably.  One more question. Can I ask um is there another   um project that the city is the city council is  looking at as big as this? This is the biggest.   Okay. Or or the second or third that could  sort of tip everybody to say no. For example,   this year suddenly, which we didn't have on  our radar because it wasn't in the CIP budget,   we received a request from the schools to approve  a $12 million improvement at New Franklin school.   That was absolutely not in our planning, but is  absolutely necessary at this stage. So, that's a   surprise expenditure that we have funded currently  in the CAPA budget for next year. So that impacts   all the other planning around what we're doing  and we don't know what else is going to come up   and we have a lot of older buildings. So you have  to be thinking about you know what's what's the   next thing coming up and making sure that we can  fund those things. So that became Oh sorry let's   finish. So the $12 million new Franklin went  became the first priority. Yes. I would point   out Some don't want to hear this, but if not if  this project went nowhere, it would create a very   very very difficult situation for the police  department. It it's this is not a we we've  

been in the space we're in for 30 years, a space  that was never designed as a police department.   And uh uh it it's getting harder, just one minor  piece of it, it's getting harder and harder to   hire people who come and look at where we are. Um  it and and and we are in a significant shortage of   officers as it is. And that's just a piece of why  it would be very very difficult um for the police   department if this project went nowhere. Just  remember if when it comes in is phased a phased   project too. I think this is really important that  means the funding could also be phased. So that   will also help the city some of the pressure on  the budget. Yeah. Yeah. Peter, one of the things   that's true, but let's not kid ourselves.  If we come come up with a recommendation,   it goes to the council. I hope they will accept  in total the recommendation or vote it down, but   phase it and bond it over the years, but authorize  the bond to make sure that there's no question   that the work is done. Yeah. Authorized it in the  first vote. Yes. Sir, I just a quick question. I   know August and September are like 8 n months  away. Um when I was on the archive committee,   we we planned during the sessions, not this early,  but how we were going to sell it to the um city   council and to um community. I haven't heard  anything that h how are we going to do it? Is it   going to be more official or or just throwing it  out there like having a meeting like you guys did  

a work session or is it going to be more public  meetings like we held at the library? Those kinds   of things. And because eight months isn't is not  that far out. And if we really don't want it to go   uh you know just fail, we need to sort of have  it in the back of our heads too how we're going   to sell this. Guess what? And that's part of the  point of these meetings is so that we're all on   the same same plane when it comes time to explain  or convince. Great topic for a future meeting,   right? No, I know, but it's something that  councelor Chamber and I can talk about. I mean,   we might end up with some interim check-ins with  the council. Um, which it's always good to keep   them on board so that they know what's happening.  And quickly, is is this something that we could do   in um not wait till the end? Could we do like an  update thing for the community so they know where   it's going and don't feel like, oh, this is all we  have right here? That type of thing. Just throwing   it out there. That might satisfy the next item  on next steps in meetings, which Peter's going   to ask about why we're when we can have more  meetings. that might give us the opportunity   to have a few more meetings to take some more  public input beyond just these afternoon meetings.   Just as a followup, it may be good for this  committee to have a public information session   on what we've done at the request of the mayor and  um with an update and get and get the um get the   public public's input of what their thoughts are  and what they'd like to see. Y I'm just looking at   our time here. Um I think these are that's a good  discussion of how we keep the council informed,   how we keep the community informed. Uh do  we want to continue that discussion today?

I just had a quick comment which continues  that. But I think the with the last time what   happened is the council didn't find out about  the price range until at a council meeting.   And I think that was a mistake. I think  it's better to get the number out there   and have a community discussion because  it's the community that's paying for it.   So that when the council has to vote on  price tag, we have some public support   um rather than the number just gets announced  at a meeting, then we vote on whether or not   we're going to go forward or not. I think I  think that a roll out that's slower with more   community involvement is going to go a long way  to getting this to pass. Pick up on that. Um, unbeknownst to pretty much everyone, we had  rescheduled three different uh public sessions   uh as the original working group was in place and  virtually nobody from the public showed up. So,   I'm a bit s cynical of the value of public  sessions generating public support. There's   other ways we need to discuss to generate public  support, but I'm not a big fan based on history of   of just saying putting out we're going to have  a meeting. We'd like public input on this. Uh   uh nobody shows up and everybody shows up at the  last meeting where it's an up or down vote and   everybody's got new ideas. Would be helpful for us  to put that on the next agenda. Communication with   the council and also the public and the community.  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was also part of those   sessions. I the method is open to all kinds of  questioning. Uh and we can beat up what's the best   method, but um the need to update the community  and the council. Oh, I agree. Effectively,   I think the method is the question. But is that  why we have chairs there for the public to come  

and sit and listen? Okay. I just It is. But  um not everybody can come in the afternoon on   a Wednesday. So some of this it's not just the  public, it's the city council updating the city   council because our city councilors all serve on  multiple committees. Um they have a lot to keep   track of and so they don't all they can't all  sit and watch every meeting, right? And I think   you know when you want people to show up and you  never really get that many, but when you want them   to show up, you put a number out there or you put  a massing diagram out there. Although I I from a   lay person's perspective, I think we should spend  the money on a rendering because as a lay person,   Madison diagrams always look terrible and like  communist block error buildings and immediately   don't garner any support. I think if we spend  a little bit on a rendering so it looks like a   nice building with windows, that may be better  received by the public. But I think when that   gets shown and I think when a price tag gets  announced, that's when we'll actually get back.   Well, the city now has the ability to do 3D  3D modeling. That was that massing exercise   with the original working group was the death of  that plan. Well, and the wing. Yeah. Yeah. No,   it's we have a we have a better strategy for that  going forward. We Mark in our office particularly   is very very good at very nice illustrative  renderings that get the help you understand   the intent of what will happen without getting  in so much detail that people are picking small   things or being so broad brushes. Here's a white  box. It's not going to be white. I think like that'll be that'll be sufficiently handled this  time around. Okay. I think I think Andrew and then   we'll do public comment. I think Andrew raises a  good point. The timing of when we schedule those  

should be aligned with when we release certain  things to encourage people to remember that this   is happening and actually show up because as he  pointed out and John you know this from being in   the news paper industry for so many years when it  gets printed people react and we should capitalize   on that to actually get their feedback so that we  don't go to that last meeting and have 60 people   show up for public comment and say you should  vote no on this and Now we're back to where we   start. Andrew is saying make some news flash can  be consider not maybe not for anything you know   about anything about this project. Put out a flash  vote to see what I'm interesting to see out of   700 people how many respond. We have 10 minutes  left and we could do public comment. Great. Um,   if you want to come up, please pull up a  chair. It looks like we're we're short of Cor. I'm a resident Portsmith. I just have two  things I wanted to ask. Um, number one, can you   be a little more precise as to the uh distance  of the bumpout in front of the existing station?   I know it has to wait till final plants. What  are we talking about? 10 ft, 20 feet, 30 feet? I'll reserve giving that for the next meeting.  Reason being that as we're working through all   the space police department, we'll take what  is currently the gray box that says Sallyport   and make that more intentional. That would be  that would to me be helpful. Okay. Number two,   um have has the committee decided to u not have  any discussion of a bumpout in the rear of the   building. that been decided? And if so, what was  the Yeah, like a bump out to like sort of like  

at the back of the the hospital building or Yeah.  Or beyond the existing police department building   toward that that parking area back over in this  way. Yeah. To the rear of the building. So we   have I think as a committee in the past meets we  haven't talked about it internally as we've been   trying these space plans and figuring out what  we feel makes sense. There wasn't an option we   saw that made sense to do the bump out there. I  think that the Sallyport location really wants to   be where it is from an adjacy perspective to you  know achieve the police department's operational   goals and it didn't make sense to I guess bump  anything out back there. at this point. Well,   yes, we considered it, but I didn't didn't see  see it making making layout sense at this point   in time. But nothing has been done in terms of the  geology of the foundation to know that it would be   prohibitively expensive because of uh granite or  whatever would have to be done here. Haven't got   to that point at all. No, we expect that wherever  we're working here, there's going to be ledge.   Just and then I just like to make an observation  which isn't necessarily relevant to the committee,   but so much of the discussion did bring it to my  mind. Uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe   that over 10 years ago, there was a study done on  the police station and that probably that study   was preceded by probably a year of discussion or  more. So, we're here 12 years down the pike doing   it again, which is good. I mean, but it raised  in my mind the uh the concept that the city has,   I think, a uh capital improvement plan, but I  believe that the capital improvement plan has   a vision of six years and it may be revised every  year. But if I'm correct and it only goes out six  

years, then I think this um police station  and municipal uh complex is probably a good   indication that perhaps the city should consider  consider going way way further out than six years   in the plans. This uh school system with with  $12 million appears suddenly hadn't been there.   There are a lot of other structures in the in  the city whether it's water treatment or water   facilities that may take more than six years  and even though that could be revised maybe we   have to go out 10 years or 12 years or 20 years.  It's just a thought and it's not this committee's   responsibility but I think the discussion  here raises that as perhaps something that   the council should the city should generally  consider. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks Bob. Petra Huda. So, I've been following this since  the beginning. Um, some of you remember I was   the one of the first ones who actually put the  police facility and started giving the money for   planning. So, I was going to go in a different  order, but um something that was said, um was   a little odd to me. Um and my question would be,  uh you said next time you're going to give us give   give the the team a uh price out. So, you haven't  got the space study back from the police yet.   So, how can you begin to do that? We have Sorry.  So, the next thing um it seems like the focus has   switched off of what the original plan here was  and that original plan was the police station.  

Now, as far as the the architects and as far as  anything else goes here, it seems like um the   focus has been switched and the police department  has taken kind of the second uh second stage here.   So, that uh that was a little concerning to me as  following this. So, the main to me the main focus   should have been the police department first, not  city hall. As I don't know if anybody's aware,   but a lot of money has been spent in remediation  downstairs, and I could tell you the amounts,   and also redoing the city hall with new  painting and carpeting as as was discussed by   uh by Joe. So, um I totally agree with Mr. Weekes  here that um a lot of the pricing is important and   should come out first. Um the other expectation  that I would have had as a taxpayer is the the   directive that was given as Mr. Chowman stated  last time was to use the current space first and   um everything that you have here and that  you're discussing is with additions. So   um from my perspective I would like to see  that first as you fulfilling your your original   directive whether it's higher lower or whatever.  Um, I think that should have been done first. The   other thing here that uh when I'm I was reading  through the minutes and I think it was discussed   briefly here today and Peter said the same thing.  Um, last week uh when uh Sousi asked about the   water issues and the stuff down for for the  police station. Um, it was discussed that a new   HVAC system was one of the primary drivers here. I  urge you not to use the police station money to do   this. Separate the cost out so you know what you  have to spend on this. The city has already spent   $2 million on the band-aids here fixing that down  downstairs. And the spend the spending should  

be for the police station first. Um that was the  one of the things that that really caught my eye.   Uh the next thing on a lot of the drawings  that was um that I noted was that the   um that the direct entry path to the meeting rooms  and the city council chambers was all jiggy. The   most important thing that we have here is the  city council that makes all decisions on the   money and it should be really easy to get to that.  Um, I can go through the drawings and and tell you   uh concept A on floor two, the lobby. It's a it's  across the Portsmith room. It's across the waiting   room. Um, from my perspective, that should be  direct. It shouldn't be any confusion for any type   of of public meeting or anything on where they go.  Uh the other thing that was interesting to me I   think up on I on concept on floor three there was  five conference rooms in planning. So I understand   you're putting everybody together but five seems  a little too much on my for my perspective. Um   the other question that came up that came up  with a lot of people were was the school. Now I   I personally don't agree with uh what what Mr.  whoever said as far as the school being here,   if the school finance department or finance people  need to be here, that's fine. But if we could use   that space more effectively to keep more in this  building instead of adding anything, personally,   I think that would be more cost-effective.  Um, those are my comments um that I could   uh that I could think of right now, but I would  urge you to get a uh a drawing of your directive   first. As a as a taxpayer, I would really like  to know if that is if it's even even feasible  

and then move on to where you would even think  about adding on here and there. And the other   thing is I mean police department should be  your first focus. That's where the money came   from instead of redoing the city hall and the  HVAC in there. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Um,   next steps. We've got a meeting date coming up. I  think we've got a pretty clear idea of the content   of that. Yep. Anything just to close out the next  meeting? What you like to see is any revisions to   the concept we've seen to date of the similar  level of detail to the police department that   we've been able to that police department. Um and  then rough order of magnitude costs based off of   what we've done to date that again are not precise  to everything that we because there's stuff we   still don't know but give us the ballpark.  Okay. Motion to journ. You got it. Second.