Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. I'd like to uh call to order the October 20th work session of the Pakosum Planning Commission. Uh have a couple of well one presentation this evening. Uh Thomas Canela is going to start that along with uh Mr. Wally Horton completing that. Thomas, you have the spotlight. Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the planning commission, uh, and citizens watching from home and here. Uh, this is, uh, extremely similar, the front half of this presentation to what you all have seen previously. So, I'm not going to I'm going to try to be mindful of your time so we can talk about the the back half in more length than than uh stuff we've already covered. Uh but this is uh to start the discussion on comprehensive plan uh revision or amendment concerning the north side of Victory Boulevard. This is the city's current zoning map. Uh and this is the north side uh that we are discussing uh this evening and as part of the comprehensive plan amendment but just the three districts here outlined uh the single family residential district uh the re research and development district that fronts victory and the general commercial uh district that has some frontage on victory as well. This is that same area of focus. Uh and here's the breakdown of how many parcels and the overall acreage uh are comprised of each zoning district. This is the research and development district in blue. Uh we'll probably come back to a few of these images uh later in the work session. Uh the current language in the comprehensive plan that uh will certainly uh be part of the overall discussion. uh but the permitted uses and prohibited uses listed here uh that you've seen in previous meetings. I

do want to take just a second and pause at the general commercial district. Uh the comprehensive plan language is the same that you all have seen in the presentation before. Uh however, this is the most recent and upto-date uh permitted and prohibited uses of the general commercial district. Uh this is language that city council passed that you all recommended uh to them for their approval at the end of last year. Uh and just for folks at home, the city code, as you know, well, um Madam Chair, the online version is not as updated. I'll say live as soon as council passes things. Um but there is a tab there to see amended language if there is some. This is the amended language. um I neglected to include in in the presentation previously uh but this is it. It remains largely unchanged uh for the language that has existed for some time but includes some updates that you all and city council approved last year. This is the B2 district language. B1 language that you're all very familiar with. Um and this of course uh being the R1 single family residential property um on the the north end uh of the map pertinent to tonight's section and of course the code language it speaks to the central planning districts which covers uh that R1 section. This uh is the future land use map as currently exists in the comprehensive plan. Uh, and this really starts uh tonight's discussion uh that Wall-Ally's going to cover. So any questions you may have as we go along, uh him or I are happy to take them and uh look forward to a to a good discussion.

Okay, I am going to start with the future land use map. Um and I'm going to use my pointer here. Uh we've really got three different areas here as Thomas illustrated very well on the uh the zoning, but you got the low density residential, you got the research and development and the general commercial. Uh we basically start with an overall view of the Big Woods North. generally uh a lot of this stuff was summed up very nicely in Tom's presentation which I know y'all seen quite a bit of but it is 210 acres more or less there's 97 in the R1 and there's about 113 in the commercial along uh Victory uh Victory Boulevard uh the uh when you when you talk about and I will kind of move ahead here just a little bit Um uh yeah, when you talk about some of the impediments to uh to R1 back here to low density residential, uh you've got first of all, you've got very limited street access. Uh you you've got access maybe here. Uh I think up there, Thomas map shows it better. And then you've got Oakmore up there. Um, I pointed at the wrong place. It's more right there. Um, impediments to creating access off Victory Boulevard, of course, are uh made more challenging by the fact that there's commercial zoning along Victory Boulevard. And I'll talk about that a little bit more as we go along. But uh in general commercial and R&D uh typically has been marketed for used to be marketed for plan unit development mixed use. But of course we got rid of the plan unit development mixed use on

April 14th. The city council uh eliminated that from the zoning ordinance. but has been marketed for light industrial office use in the R&D which is the blue and in the purple general commercial retail business. Uh as Thomas pointed out a lot of the u the uses in B2 are allowed in GC albeit with uh conditional use permits for a lot of it. Um, but the point I'm trying to make is that, you know, if you want to do anything other than the permitted uses in these two commercial districts, you might be looking at a conditional use or even a reszoning. Now, obviously, we don't have anything before us right now. Uh, but I mean, I'm just talking in terms of what might happen in the future. Uh, so that's sort of the general overview. Um when you get down what used to be called Big Woods East um and and Mr. Canelis shows it without the strikethroughs to it but we are proposing uh and this is pursuant to planning commission's direction when they uh asked for a Big Woods North um commercial and Big Woods North residential. So we we're trying to do that here. Now there are some there is some language in Big Woods East that is carried forth into the uh proposed new language um you know particularly uh you know stuff about um uh eliminating strip development or not advocating strip development looking for controlled access off of Victory Boulevard. Um the plan uh it envisions as of now a proposed comprehensive plan language to basically run the general commercial designation all the way to

the York County line pretty much uh pretty much self-explanatory. Uh there will be uh architectural standards will apply for this zone and of course as Mr. Canela mentioned we've done some um some tweaking in our zoning ordinance that has required a greater amount of buffer and more landscaping in that particular area. Um so uh that's basically the the first part of general commercial if I can continue on. Unfortunately I couldn't get all this on slide not even close. Um uh as I sort of intimated before, significant uh infrastructure improvements will be necessary for the comprehensive development of the area. Uh and uh we have got some language in there that and this is really borrowed from Big Woods East. Uh efforts should be made to restrict strip type development that will prohibit future development. In other words, you want to make the whole area viable with any sort of street going in there. you don't want to create problems down the road for being able to develop other properties. Uh and as we have said and this is from the sort of the the memo that I put out the last two months and again this month uh is that we envision a comprehensive master plan type development here. Now obviously this is a long time well I won't say a long time but it's significantly in the future because it's going to take uh work on the part of the city on the economic development authority and of course by the private property owners that that own property in this area. So we're u we're to set the stage for that. It may or may not ever happen but we're setting the stage for it.

Uh the economic development authority of course owned some properties in this area as well and assemblage basically across from city hall avenue. Um I thought I had more maps in here but I guess not. Um I've mentioned con controlled street access along Victory Boulevard. Uh traffic flow is a big concern. Uh obviously with the fact that uh Victory Boulevard is not going to be widened in the future. Um so it be you know we are developing I'll get to it a little bit later but we are proposing that there only be three potential accesses. One at Big Woods Drive uh one at the um City of Hall Avenue and one at Legacy Boulevard. and and and I've already talked about plant screening and earth and BMS uh architectural control guidelines. The big woods west is where our R&D here again is where our R&D area is. Um formerly Big Woods West now is part of you know Big Woods North commercial. We are proposing to eliminate this designation and extend general commercial all the way again to take up the take up the R&D um area which I think is pretty much at the county line. So um okay I think I've Yeah. So I mean that's really all I said for Big Woods West. We get rid of big woods west and we say that you know this plan envisions uh extending general commercial as I said to the county line. Okay. So now we talk about the

residential. Been a lot of talk about the residential. We know that there's not going to be any plan unit development or any mass subdivision in this area. Um this is the base zoning district. uh 20,000 ft lots, 100t of frontage, 50 ft off of a road. Um and uh uh 1,800 square foot houses um uh so it's a base zoning uh layer and it is the largest area of undeveloped R1 property in the city uh in in this particular area which I think uh Mr. Canela showed you an aerial of all the woods. It is truly the big woods. Um as discussed earlier in the general discussion that we had in chapter 4, uh creation of new public streets may be necessary uh to develop these parcels and uh some of those might be going through general commercial or uh research well general commercial land. Let's just um now some of these lots we know contain non-title wetlands and are have flood plane issues. We don't know the exact limits of that because we don't have any recent delineation that we can sort of point to and say well this is it. I can tell the commission and anybody uh listening um whether they're here or at home that we've had several inquiries about extensions on the Oakmore and in each case and I've been here since 2017 but in each case uh they have refrained from any further development there because of the environmental factors. Um

and one thing I didn't mention is storm water management facilities. Um, one thing that we would look at with any development plan is not only the non-title and not only the flood plane, but we would also look at the uh, storm water management detention. And we can do all that at a staff level. We've got the personnel here to uh, we've got an engineer, we got public works, we got utilities, and of course we have planning and zoning. Um, so you know, really when it when it boils down to it, the only real significant change that we're making here is to extend general commercial over the research and development designation comprehensive plan. Everything else is is pretty much staying the same same. the R1 land uh has been available for development for decades and I mean this is what we have. Um I I could say the same thing for the general commercial but um you know some of that is is going to be discussed at the city council level and I'm sure that when y'all get to a work session there'll be more discussion about that too. Um so anyway uh we've got old delineations. We would need new delineations for any type of development there as far as wetlands and of course you know we'd want to know about the flood plane and and all the other uh factors storm water management um traffic in R1's own properties. We would prefer prefer that it come off of Yorktown Road or even Oakmore Drive as you know as as um as as um doubtful as that may be because the environmental factors but um so

that's why we have this uh any traffic in R1 zone property for bite development. We're talking about by right development here in accord with all zoning district regulations should be off Yorktown Road and Ormo Mower Drive and should be focused on areas where existing frontage is available or can be acquired for a new street and require traffic impact analysis. For example, let's say somebody's got 35 ft off Yorktown and they can acquire an extra 15 feet to to give them, you know, 50 foot to put a road in there. you know, that might be a possibility. I mean, you know, um, in cases where R1's owned properties are landlocked or where no access exists or can be created, access via a public street off Petri Boulevard should be first of all in the ownership of the developer at the time of application. be limited to the public street, be focused towards existing intersections, and I pointed this out earlier, but uh City Hall Avenue, Legacy Boulevard, and Big Woods Drive, or as the planning commission sees fit, uh and require a traffic impact analysis for review. I would be remiss if I didn't tell you already that a traffic impact analysis is required for anything coming off Victory Road. What we're trying to do is just make it clear for the sake of clarity in the comprehensive plan. Uh there is not a traffic impact analysis required for uh Yorktown Road or more, but this plan thinks there should be. Um and again, that's our short area. Um, I didn't have this on my PowerPoint, but but really the next step is from this point is, you know, we're here before

the planning commission tonight to give our draft of the proposed comprehensive plans uh draft language. And um there are a few redundancies in there that we might be able to clear up a little bit, but basically it's in pretty good shape in in terms of what the planning commission has recommended. But if the planning commission feels like we need another meeting in November or you know when the schedule allows, we can do that. Otherwise, we will go to a joint work session with the city council at a date that will have to be decided, I guess, at this point. Uh and then the next step from there will be a public hearing before the planning commission and then a public hearing before the board of uh the city council. almost at board of supervisors, city council. Um, I'll be happy to take any questions you have.

You clear up exactly what um the property's landlocked like for housing on the residential side. Yes. What what exactly would have to happen for them to get a road built, you know, to their property? How would they get out of how would they make use of their property? Well, I understand that there's environmental stuff and all that, but I mean Well, I mean, you know, we we shouldn't be in the business of landlocking people, but but there is obviously some land here doesn't have a very good access,

right? And that's why we're allowing for access potentially off of victory if the properties owned in developer name and and we get a traffic impact analysis and it's coming off the designated uh they have they'd have them theirs and the property on Victory. I'm sorry. Say that again. You you'd say that uh you know they build it off Victory Access Road, but it has to be talking about a property that's a person only owns something inside the residential. They don't own anything on Victory. What are they I mean they just

Well, I mean they would I mean obviously you can't we wouldn't expect them to build a road across people's property unless those people were, you know, agreeable to it. Uh, I understand they may not want to buy the property until they know that a road's going to be approved, but there's a thing, you know, you could do a contingency purchase, you know, contingent on this being approved. So, that's what we'd be looking at. It's a lot to go through. So, okay. Yeah. Which is probably why it's not developed.

Expand on that, Wally. Is there a slide that's available that actually shows the individual parcels that we could all look at? I've seen that and there is and I think folks will see that without some sort of master plan and the prospect of this ever being anything is very slim. Forgive me, but I'm going back to one of the earlier slides here. This is the uh this is the uh district here. So you got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight properties back here.

Now, some of these properties were owned by, you know, some of these properties, they're mostly dispirit owned, but uh I understand that there may be some groups of properties that are under ultimately under the control of one entity. So for this to to happen, I mean, a lot of folks are going to have to come together and and shared access and infrastructure and utilities and environmental um delineation done to see what can be developed and possibly new lot lines sold or developed. and before any of this can really become any kind of a valuable development.

Yes, sir. That that's true. And that's why I think for decades you've seen this property basically, right? Exactly. You know, sit fant. I mean, because we're not doing anything different now than than what we've done in the past. I think we're just, you know, I don't know that any of us have any real issue with the changes that that's we proposed. Hang on this for another month, but nothing really changed. So, I don't know what

my fellow commission general. Uh I my big concern is still uh track. Mhm. I understand that you're saying that Victory Boulevard widened, but I don't see any scenario where you can develop that out general commercial and leave that two lanes and not cause gridlock on that road. I don't that's possible.

Well, is it is going to be difficult? Uh, I would say this, um, that if you are able to put another street off of Victory to go back into one of these areas, you make the traffic situation a little better. Ultimately, yes, they're coming out on Victory. But, uh, you know, like I said, with those three intersections we talked about, there'll have to be a traffic impact assessment. And it may be that the outcome of the traffic impact assessment is that, you know, the developer needs to make some improvements to make that work.

Correct. Like with VOTE, if it was a VOTE type of situation, VOTE would be able to say whether or not this would meet the traffic impact in that area. So, it wouldn't be compat, right? Addable or not. I mean, if it doesn't meet the traffic impact, you're going to have a That's Yes. Yeah, we're going to have we're going to have a problem. Right.

So, is what that's saying, Wally, is if a development large enough that would that the traffic impact study dictates road Victory Boulevard be widened? Would that be something developer would have to put the bill on or Well, how do we have that kind of I don't I don't think the city would make that happen. Yeah, I don't think the city would put foot the bill. I don't want to talk for city council, but uh yeah, basically that's what you would be talking about. The developer would be responsible for widening Victory Boulevard. Yes. I don't believe that's true. I think so.

Okay. In compel, you cannot compel a developer to dedicate for public purposes for something he didn't create. He's only doing 10% of the traffic on Victory Boulevard. You can't make him wide. Well, yeah, that's not going to be that's not going to be feasible. Now, you can make him build his own road to serve his property. That that's not make you have 50 ft, make you have curved gutter and all that, but you're not going to require a development of wide victory boulevard. Only the Commonwealth of Virginia is going to do that. Yeah. So, at what point would the development cease in the big woods because of an issue with traffic or what what what would happen?

They they they the traffic study indicates that, you know, something needs to be done happens after that. So, wouldn't that be two separate things? I I mean, what we're talking about is an area that's currently already zoned residential. a developer should they want to right the second come in and build houses on that they can but they haven't because they don't have the access to the property right

it's something that exists um currently we haven't seen it developed it's been like that when I spoke with both of you all for generations long period of Huh? very dependent on Hampton and Yorktown still no matter what if we did it tomorrow and made our you know extended right out here four lanes boom car's chapel and running man that's where the real traffic let's just say it that's where it gets us and we don't I mean that's outside I mean it's uh I I ride it every morning I ride it uh and come back at night at the worst times and everything's fine until you hit there and then it's not fine, you know. Um and some days are better than others or worse than others, however you want to look at it. But, uh we keep talking and I think it's great that we're talking about the north side and all that, but you of course we have to consider what's already been built there. We've added 2,000 people on the south side. So, it really limits it's taken away to me a lot of the opportunities on what you can do to this north side that we're looking at right now. that really needs to be considered because I mean

sure it's that's what 10 15% of the people we just added right in one location right you know so it's it's tough it's going to be uh and again of course if it was easy to build here it already been done years ago there's a lot of things in the way it would take a lot I mean a lot of people cooperating a lot of people selling their property and then getting underneath one which sure not saying is impossible Well, I mean, it happened on the with Legacy, but um I did. Yes. So, but I mean, this is uh there's a lot of challenges with this

and Mr. Jagger, you and I I'm not sure who else spoke to a gentleman uh who owns property in this area who um was quite concerned of us telling he could not develop his property, you know, should he so choose. So by essentially and it was a good conversation. We had a nice long conversation about that.

Um and his concern was just that you know he should be able should he desire to do the improvements that he can do that. But by doing so on some of this area that's currently zoned separately from research and development. They're property owners. they should be able to do. He wanted to make sure that we had that point across was it's my property. If I want to develop it, you shouldn't tell me not to.

And I've been saying that from the beginning. It's it does it is weird. I mean, if I own this property and don't know, you know, we're all talking about what y'all think I should do with my propert. I mean, that's that's weird, you know, right? Cuz I'm not being considered. But uh at the same time uh you know I can totally understand where they're coming from. I mean they're paying taxes on it for years. They're uh you know the respon insurance everything on that and then you know uh yeah I mean I I absolutely see where they're coming from and that's where I've been getting. Well I will say this there's nothing in zoning ordinance or certainly in the comprehensive plan that's going to prevent development on any of these properties.

That's right. But we have put into work or into place, you know, none of the high density legacy and all that. So that has done, right? They can't just build anything. We've taken away a lot of their well is by uses and I'm I'm pretty sure that anything that we would pass would probably fall back on by uses as well. The PUD has been eliminated.

Right. And then even uh I didn't include it in this slide because it didn't cover the general commercial as a whole but the in the permitted and prohibited uses of the general commercial we got specific you all will remember about the EDA parcels and it bas it prohibits in the code um multifamily or town homes or single family and those parcels at least being developed in pieces is you know that's a very small chunk of that north side but at least for you know the ADA and part there the mixed use language has been eliminated

um so a larger spacing now they can't you know that's also added as well the open space code you all made much more restrictive in the sense that the lot size requirements are larger the setbacks are larger the amount of usable space of non-title wetlands is less. Yeah, the open space calculations are different. So, you know, there's not a parcel over there that prohibits by right. And I'm talking about the parcels, you know, in that little shark fin, the R1, the GC, the R&D, there's not one over there that permits by right multifamily housing, right?

Um or high d high density housing, right? It doesn't exist and that's not part of the contemplated amendments. And there's no housing at all on victory right now of the two. Not on. You'd have to. No, I mean not on the north side. Yeah, that's uh right. And again, what we're looking at is not changing the zoning. We're not approving anything.

It's this plan right here. This plan that can be amended. that's good until well 2038 that we look at every 5 years that we can change sooner if necessary. It's just a plan just a guideline. So the planners look at it and they say yes this checks out. It makes sense. It is it is a guideline and um we will which segus into one thing that I wanted to say we will after this process is done we'll be looking at the uh the central business district uh and in similar fashion after that we're going to probably spend about a year or two revising the entire comprehensive plan because what's going to happen is that when we put in Victory North and we put in the the central business area. It's going to create a lot of loose ends. We're going to need to go through the entire code to make sure it all reads and it all hooks up the way it should. But, uh, our direction right now is to work on Victory North.

And when did we look at this? Was last year, year before last, the comprehensive plan. We approved it again for five years. Yeah, I think we Well, we can we can do sooner than 5 years. We can legacy. Yes. Um, but I think it was 2023, I believe. 23 and it was because Vic uh legacy was still being you know built out but we decided that we wanted that to finish before we you know and I I thought I think that what's really interesting and one of the things when all of us met was exactly um that stuff can be built right on this property right now.

Yes, certainly can. I would just like to add um the focus really tonight for the work session has been kind of the discussion on amendments related to the comprehensive plan specifically to the north side. So with that in mind, I I do like looking at, you know, referring it to Big Woods North residential North Commercial.

Um, and the language that is being proposed here is good. I'm I'm in I'm in favor of that. So, you know, with that in mind, uh I see progress being made in relation to to where we're heading. I agree. I was going to make the same comment that find the language adequate. I agree. I I think seeing the language in front of you is very helpful.

I'm in agreement with the language also. Okay. I just wanted to capture that for posterity. All right. Well, thank you. Uh I guess we're going to stand in recess if there are no further comments for 10 minutes until 7 o'clock. Sounds good. Thank you.

Call to order the October 20th meeting of the Picosen Planning Commission. Can I have a roll call, please? Commissioner Armen Trout, present. Commissioner Hirsch, present. Commissioner Hartley, present. Commissioner Joerger, present. Chairwoman Shot,

present. A quorum has been established. Thank you. If you're able, please rise for the invocation followed by the pledge of allegiance. Let us pray. As we begin this meeting, may we work together with respect, understanding, and a spirit of cooperation. Help us to listen carefully, speak thoughtfully, make decisions that unite us, and move our city forward in a positive way. May all we do tonight serve the best interest of our community and those that we are privileged to represent. Amen.

Mr. Jagger, can you lead us to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. So, as we begin tonight, we are moving to item number C, the approval of minutes. And these are the minutes from September 15, 2025. Do I have a motion to approve those minutes? I move that we approve the minutes from September 15, 2025. Second.

Second. Can I have a roll call, please? Commissioner Armenro, I. Commissioner Hirs I. Commissioner Hartley I. Commissioner Joerger. Hi. Chairwoman Shaw. I. The motion passes. Thank you.

We are going to now move to our audience for visitors. And this is a time when the audience can come and speak with or speak to us. This is not an a question and answer portion. We will ask staff and I had spoken to staff earlier that if you do have questions, please feel free to ask them and staff will do their best during the presentation to answer that. But this is your time to speak to us as the planning commission this evening. So I want to make sure that we give you the opportunity to speak with us and you know get your comments through. So um as we begin this evening we're going to start off with Mr. Harold Quinn. You're our first speaker.

My name is Harold Quinn. I live at 9 more drive in Posen, Virginia. One thing I'd like to start with is in the work session, there was a question related to who owns property within what you call Victory North. They specified that there are 97 acres in the R1 area. I want you to be aware that there are three entities that own 92.18 of that area right now. One entry owns 55.66 acres, has two exits that he can use to get to Yorktown Road. The other one is a 15.1 that is right behind the 55.66. He has no capability of getting there, but he could sell his property to the first entity and you would have roughly 94 84 acres or 74 acres established. The third one owns 21.42 and he has a natural entrance also to Vic to uh Ytown Road. I'd like to first thank Wally Horton, Thomas Canela, and seen uh Crawford. They've been very responsive on answering my emails, phone calls, as well as meeting with me in a timely fashion. I've taken the time to read your comprehensive plan that's existing today. I've also looked at your meeting notes from the June 21st city council strategic vision retreat and your notes from the September 15th meeting and your notes that you just approved. After reading the information, I also took the time to walk the property through what you are calling Victory North Residential. I walked from

Oakmore Drive out till I got to where you have Vic the uh Legacy Boulevard. I turned went into went all the way down to Bayside uh which is the folks home at the end and also walked from there to back to Oakmore. What you will find is that all the drainage or the smallest part where the drainage is the worst is right behind Oakmore Drive. Because of this, I kind of disagree with a couple of things that I'd like to bring up now where you had the information related to Oakmore Drive as well as uh I will take and read it. Any the one that I would like to see is say the following. Any traffic into R1 zone properties victory or the big woods north for byite development in accords with all zoning district regulations should be off Yorktown Road and should be focused on areas where existing frontage is available or can be acquired for a new street. Any existing or future streets used to send traffic to Yorktown Road must require a traffic impact analysis to review. If you look at the coding or the writing that you said there and and your proposal, it almost is like Oak doesn't have to have that traffic analysis even though I know you want to have that traffic analysis done. The second thing that I would like to see is an adding of a collector street and where that legacy where that street would begin would be Legacy Boulevard. It would look something like Running Man which would carry it all the way to Yorktown Road. If this street is part of that solution, what it does is provide the capability of having side streets for your general purpose. Let's see, you call it commercial as well as any residential areas that do not have uh

they're landlocked and don't have an access to either Victory Boulevard or to Yorktown Road. Thank you for the time for speaking and I hope that some of this information will help you and you'll take and and look at it very closely. Thanks again. Thank you. Our next speaker is Andrea Hog.

Hello. All right. I have it on my phone. Um, so I'm going to read from a statement that I have here and it's about the resoning just in general. So, good evening city council members. My name is Andrea Hawk. My family line has lived here in Picosen for generations. My great-grandmother Francis Evans owned a small grocery store called Evans Grocery in the 1970s at the White House at the corner of Picosen Avenue and Trinity Street. My grandparents, Janet Hog and Robert Hog, lived here their whole life. They graduated from the middle school when it was also the high school. Their son, my dad, was also raised here and went through all of the schools. He graduated from high school um to join the army to be a trumpet player. My aunt grew up here her whole life and still lives here to this day. My dad returned to Picosen with my mom, my sisters, and I in the mid '9s when he joined the police force. We rented a house off of Ridge Road next to the people with all the nautical decorations in the front yard. That house still has some of it actually. special circumstances made our family move around a bit more, meaning that I was only able to attend two years at the primary school and then my 10th grade year of high school when we finally returned permanently in 2009. That enabled my sisters to graduate from the high school in 2011. My first job was at Victor Steakhouse while I was attending college at Thomas Nelson and then transferred to Christopher Newport. Whenever I had been in an accident, Freddy's on the corner of Yorktown Road and Victory always fixed my car. My grandparents always took their car to McFersonson's because my grandpa was friends with the owner. But Kosen Auto Repair is somehow related to me as well. My dad would have to remind me of the relation. But Kosen is my home, my family, my heritage. While I understand that things may change with time, I'm also here to say, please stop. I'm tired of seeing so much of the natural land destroyed for houses. Sometimes I feel like it is the Oprah meme where instead

of saying you get a car and you get a car, it feels like you get houses and you get houses and you get reszoneed so we can put houses there too. There's at least three active developments happening right now, Robert Bruce, North Lawson, and how many have there been in the last 5 years? 10 years. Legacy would be included in that timeline and we know how massive that is. We all love the small town appeal but seem to contradict this statement by destroying that appeal with con constant development. If we truly love all aspects of the city such as the culture and the community the way it is, then why exactly are we developing? What exactly are we developing? So, I'm sure you all are tired of my emotion appeal and want me to get to some facts by now. So, I will. At the last meeting, concerns regarding schools were brought to the floor to the council to discuss the sentiment of the city planner were that he quote personally does not see a concern for school capacity. They also shared information that the school division is about 250 students less than it was in its peak in 2008 and 2009. While this may be true, it is clear the concerns of the public were lost in translation. Allow me to attempt to articulate these concerns more clearly. The main concern amongst families and residents is our schools being overcrowded. Overcrowded doesn't have to mean max capacity size for fire hazard reasons, but also in terms of classroom size. I'll use my daughter's experience for this example. She started third grade this year with the classroom size of 24 students. The VOE provides provides guidance of classroom size and for third grade class the re the recommendation is assigned licensed instructional personnel in a manner that produces division divisionwide ratios of students and average daily membership to full-time equivalent teaching positions that are not greater than the following ratios 24-1.

Remember her class started the year with 24 students. Now imagine the other third grade classes. The smallest class she has been in since starting school is 22 students. So maybe the size isn't a problem in it of itself since it's technically following the VDO guidelines. But has anyone looked at discipline data? The VDOE has reports on that too. These are called the Virginia school quality profiles and you can access reports for the school district as a whole or individual schools. Picosen City Schools has an enrollment of 270 students for the 2023 2024 school year. During that year, there were 416 incidents of behaviors of a safety concern across all schools. With other reporting categories, the total number of reported behavioral events makes 1,250 reports across all schools. We only have four with 270 students. Not to mention the increase of inschool suspensions. The year 2021 to 2022 has 118. 2023, no, excuse me, 2022 to 2023 has 196. 2023 to 2024 had 251 in school suspensions. This year or excuse me, last year's data is not yet available on on the website. Secondly, concerns about traffic on victory were brought to the record. The council's response was that the VOE is responsible for that road. The city does not own the roadway. The council acknowledged that traffic on victory is bad. So, if the BDOE is not cooperative as you all would like, is the plan to make traffic on victory so bad that BDOE, not Ve can't ignore it anymore? Um, third, the council made comments

about wanting to hear more input from community regarding this reszoning. You referenced potential surveys, very low attendance at council meetings, and perhaps not having meetings at 7:00 p.m. on Mondays. A council member mentioned that the person who manages the Facebook page for the city is doing a great job. There was a post on September 9th about the meeting on the 15th, so about a week before the actual meeting, but no reminder on the day of the post. I bring that up because the speaker at that meeting on the 15th said he only was able to come because he saw a post that day which means did not come from the city page. Uh for the record there is no post on the official Facebook page for this meeting before I came here. Um and then secondly would it is it even on the LED sign that we have on victory? You don't need to do anything fancy to know how people feel. They talk about the wetlands, the schools, the traffic to really say they just don't want development. You can continue to try to brush off the comments people make on Facebook as mis misinformation and then and therefore invalidate the feedback. But it doesn't change that people don't want development. I say all of this to really ask what is picosen? If we say it is for good schools, then does the yearly rise in behavior and safety incidents keep keep it that way? If we say it is for Picosen families, then does building $600,000 homes keep it that way? And most importantly, if we say it is a small town, then does developing every inch of the town keep it that way? Thank you,

Miss Hog. Miss Hog, can we get your address, please? For the record, I have. You got it. Okay. And I have Brandy Neil. Thank you. Thank you.

I I think I can keep it short because actually a lot of the thoughts have already been expressed both in in the previous meeting and and with this fine lady. Um, she also echoes your citizen survey of 2017, which I'm sure you probably looked at. What I'd be looking at is uh, you know, I understand your planning commission development is is something you have to plan for. I know in your own documents it says control development. So I can't say no development but I could say please control development or delay development. You know I think with what you inherited through legacy you should have enough taxes. I would say with what you inherited through legacy I'm hearing that there are increased calls to that area may be criminal, you know, and I'm also hearing that the elementary schools might be a little more robust in terms of population. If that is true, then as that bow wave moves through, your high schools will be overcrowded eventually. One of the things about the coin that everyone wants is your incredible education system. and we don't want to get rid of that. The other is the sense of community which we definitely don't want to get rid of. I'm keeping it short because I think really Mr. Quinn has a reasonable solution for you all. I hope you genuinely look at what he's asked. I'm also keeping it short and so that

it's just specific messages. Why develop now? Why don't we delay? In terms of the document, I would ask please, you know, look at Harold Quinn's inputs there. I think that that's a reasonable request. Thank you.

Thank you. That's everyone that I have that filled out a speaker card. Is there anyone else that wishes to speak this evening? Seeing no one, I'm going to close the audience for visitors. We're going to move on to item E during staff presentations. Uh Mr. Canela and Mr. Horton. All right. Thank you, Madame Chair. I'm trying to be again mindful of your time this evening. Uh you've seen much of the start of this presentation uh a few times, but for the benefit of the folks here and folks at home, uh I I'll go through it. This is the current uh zoning map for the city of Kosen. Uh it's every parcel in the entire city, but we'll zero in on what we're discussing uh as part of tonight's conversation. It's this uh the north side of Victory Boulevard. uh but not every um zoning district, just the three uh I've outlined here, the R1 single family residents, uh the research and development district, and the general commercial district. This is the area of focus. It's 210 acres, 39 parcels, and you can see the breakdown there. uh district specific uh and then some context from uh the legacy development on the sad side of Victory Boulevard. This is the research and development district in blue. Uh these this is the language uh referenced in the comprehensive plan currently uh and being discussed to amend. These are the permitted uses uh and prohibited uses in

the research and development district uh as the code currently exists. Uh I think it's important to note that no part of this discussion uh is a resoning or even a necessarily a contemplated uh resoning at this time. It's all comprehensive plan specific. Pause on that slide just a moment. Sure. And just to clarify, this is permit it uses as it stands right now in the research and development as it's zoned right now. Yes, ma'am.

This will um remain unchanged as part of this conversation and this process. This is uh the city code. This is the regulatory code, the the legal code of which we follow. Uh the tonight's discussion and the discussion at large is large is the comprehensive plan. We're not you all are not changing uh the base or underlying zoning of any parcel. You're not permitting any use that's not currently permitted uh or you're not permitting one that's currently prohibited. Uh it's just a modification of the language uh as found in the comprehensive plan. This is the general commercial district. Uh this includes some EDA parcels. Um and this is the existing language. Um that tonight's amendments that that Mr. Horton we'll get to basically contemplates uh the general commercial being carried through the research and development district in the comprehensive plan and perhaps the future land use map uh only. That doesn't mean that the underlying zoning is changing. It just puts it in the comprehensive plan through 2038. These uh this is a list of the permitted uses in the general commercial district. That code actually continues to some specific prohibited uses on the EDA parcels uh which more or less specifically prohibits on the economic development authority owned parcels only uh single family multifamily living as well as those parcels specifically being developed uh in pieces. This is the language uh permitted uses in the B2 district. the B2 district of course found primarily on W Creek Road. Uh but some of this language of course is mentioned uh as part of the general commercial language. Uh the same is true for the B1 office professional district

language. Um and at this slide you will see the existing R1 single family residential uh parcels on the north side of Victory Boulevard. Uh I think it is worth mentioning uh that a number of those parcels do currently have access uh from Yorktown Road and and you can imagine how they may be uh and are connected from them. Uh but those those are existing connections. Those are existing public streets. Uh like I told you all at your last meeting. uh these connections and this then the development thereof uh of these properties has been at least contemplated uh since 1984 uh when when Oakmore was developed. Uh the two adjacent parcels that that Oakore and and Abbott Lane um basically terminate at it says on the the de on uh the record plat it says future development. Obviously that hasn't happened. Uh and again nothing you are doing tonight uh or as part of this process is making it more permissive or less restrictive for development uh in the R1 single family district. This is the central planning district language. That's where the R1 single family district uh is mentioned in the comprehensive plan as it exists. The permitted uses are listed there. uh they're true of of basically all of the single family residential districts in the city. Uh and madam chair, members of the commission, this is where uh the portion of my presentation ends. Uh this is the current uh future land use map. Uh that shows you uh that portion of the north of Victory that we're discussing. and that in yellow being uh the low density residential

the light blue um research and development and then of course in the purple the general commercial uh I think it's also important to note uh hearing some concerns that that have been addressed nothing uh you all are doing as part of tonight's discussion um or are moving forward at this time contemplates permitting any sort of multi-family or highdensity uh residential on any of these parcels. Uh it's not not part of the discussion and that is not permitted uh anywhere on the north victory in the uh R1 district, the R&D district or the general commercial. Uh, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have, Madam Chair, members of the planning commission. And if not, I'll take a seat and Mr. Horton will take us the rest of the way. throw my magic mic here. Hi.

This is the future land use map of the city uh pursuant to the 2018 2038 comprehensive plan. The area that we're looking at is focused if I can get my pointer to work. high uh in this area here. General commercial research and development and low density residential. Okay, kind of a blow up of that map here. Uh again, uh general commercial research and development and low density residential. Okay, so we'll take it in sections. Uh pursuant to the planning commission direction at the last meeting, we did decide to go with Big Woods North uh residential and uh commercial. Uh but this is sort of a general overview of the whole area. Uh as Mr. Canel pointed out, uh I think earlier in his slides, it is 210 acres of mostly undeveloped property. uh most of which is in disparit private private ownership. To be fair, there are some properties that are held ultimately by the same people. So, um, parcels do have the ability to be serviced by public utilities, but road access to the larger parcels in the rear zoned R1, those right there, are somewhat restricted by the fact that you've got this commercial property up front. uh whether free search, development or general commercial. Um so the creation of new public streets may be necessary to provide access whether it's access

within the commercial or possibly access beyond that into the R1 areas in the rear. Uh typically the R1 uh or or the commercial I'm sorry has been marketed for uh mixed use which is no longer available in the zoning ordinance been eliminated. No more mixed use uh which created legacy by the way. Um so it's a no more mixed use. uh but it's also been marketed for uh light commercial office uses in the research development and retail and commercial uses in the general commercial area which is again the purple research developments in the blue. Okay. So as we move forward um this is basically a rehash of what I already said. Um so is that uh the plan does does um contemplate the elimination of the blue colored um research and development district in order to allow the general commercial to run pretty much to the York County line. I think Mr. Canela summed that up earlier, but I just wanted to restate it. And that is really the only big change that we're making as part of this comprehensive plan uh propos uh I will say. Okay. So, if we go into the uh the big woods east, which again is the general commercial zoned area, and I'm going to keep flipping back to this map to make sure everybody knows where we are. general commercial. This was called Big Woods West formerly. It's now called Big Woods North Commercial or it's proposed to me. Anyway,

okay. I finally got another slide that I wanted. Um general commercial uh again is proposed to go all the way to the York County line uh to be designated for general commercial use. Um uh allows for similar uses to uh B1 and B2 albeit with a few more conditional use provisions in there. Um higher architectural and shared infrastructure standards uh are also part of the general commercial district. Uh, proposed development in Bigwoods area should be permitted with attention to controlled street access, which is what I was uh maybe misspoke a little bit in our presentation, but what we're talking about there is streets coming off of Big Wood of Victory Boulevard going back into the uh what will become if this is passed uh entirely general commercial designation. It's not a reasonzoning. It's just a designation. in the comprehensive plan and perhaps back to the R1 properties and I'll touch on that in a minute. Um, Big Woods East um, principles of better design, enhanced landscaping and green areas which is required by our ordinance now uh, pursuant to the uh, amendments back last November. Um, Big Woods East. Uh, lot lot about the Big Woods East here. Um, oh, I'm going backwards. I might be wild. Uh, Big Woods West is promoted is uh proposed for elimination. Uh, it's going to be part of the Big Woods North commercial area. And again, uh, the plan envisions

the elimination of the research and development district in favor of general commercial. Shouldn't say zoning there because we're not reszoning anything. These properties are denoted as Bigwood North commercial. Okay. Big Woods North residential, which is again this area up here. Uh, several recommendations. I know Mr. Quinn talked earlier, but it is the base zoning layer of the Big Woods residential area. Uh 20,000 square foot lots, 100 ft of road frontage or 50 where it buzzes a public street for access. uh is the largest area of R1 land in Kosen in this district and it's within the big woods uh which uh are pretty big uh as discussed in the the general conversation about Bigwoods North creation of new public streets may be necessary to access and develop these parcels some of which and I'm going to go back again but some of which uh contain non-title wetlands although we don't know the exact extent flood plane and will of course require storm water management facilities which I think is you know serves as as a bit of a dampener in terms of any density of course there it's you know it's R1 it's fairly low density anyway but that's a further dampening uh of that

I'm sorry can you speak a little louder Yes, apparently my pocket lapel is not working as well as I would have hoped, but uh anyway, I will speak into the mic or try to anyway. Um anyway, what I was saying is there are a number of environmental factors in R1 that uh that work against it being developed. Uh Oakmore Road as you see coming down from here. uh that is one such area where the environmental problems have been rather large which evidenced by the fact that nothing's happened since I think Mr. canal or somebody mentioned 1984. So, it's it's been a while certainly certainly since I've been here in 2017, there hadn't been anything. We've had several people look at the files, but they have declined to really pick up the mantle uh and go from there. Um our um uh new public streets might be necessary to provide access. Uh although we would prefer at this point that if there are existing accesses off of Yorktown and Oakmore that they be used. Now Mr. Quinn earlier tonight mentioned the similar language but omitting Oakmore roads. So I I throw that out there for the planning commission's consideration. Um if if there is not uh if the properties are landlocked or where no access exists or can be created uh access via a public street off Victory Road should remember this the comp plan. So it's all should here be in the ownership of the developer at the time of application be

limited to the public street be focused towards existing intersections uh those being city hall avenue legacy boulevard and bigwoods drive and require traffic impact analysis for review. Now the importance of a traffic impact analysis is not to get the developer to pay for public improvements on the road. Uh I want to make that clear. Um but it it would serve as an analysis for review of the overall plan. Um we know that legacy is not going to be extended past two lanes. We know that Yorktown is the way that it is. Oakmore is the way that it is. And it's probably not going to change anytime soon. Uh certainly not during our terms here. Maybe Thomas's. I don't know. But But uh uh so that that's really the extent of what I've got. Um I will say though as far as further steps as I mentioned in the work session um this is being discussed now in front of the planning commission. If the pla planning commission wants another meeting we can have another meeting. Otherwise, this will go to a joint work session between the planning commission and the city council. And uh from there, we'll go to public hearings before the planning commission and public hearing before the city council who will make the final determination. So, um you know that that's what I've got for now. I'll be happy to take any questions.

Questions? So, I would like to get the planning commission's input on where we go from here, how we direct staff and moving forward with this or how you would like to proceed. Um, just so Crystal and staff can capture this properly, I want to make sure we just work down here. Everybody has a fair turn. But this time, I'm going to start down because I always start down there. So, Mr. Jagger.

Well, first of all, I'd like to thank those that spoke tonight and everybody that's here in attendance. Um, I think it's great that you're part of this process. uh and involved and uh as we've said before, feedback is important from the members of our city. Um as far as moving forward, um I personally feel like we're kind of at a place where move you going meeting with city council joint session. I'm feeling that that's kind of where we should go. Uh I'm also like to thank everyone who spoke tonight and uh good to see so many people in the seats in here uh hearing your input. So thank you for that. Uh I I agree with Commissioner Jagger that uh I feel like the language is in a good place. I think there might be some tweaks we need to make, but I feel like that can be done in a in a joint session with city council.

Um Yes. Um I'd like to also thank everyone for coming out tonight. Um I wanted to um reiterate I I don't it's not so everyone knows it's not the commission's responsibility to um rewrite zoning ordinances or site plan. We're here tonight to look at modifying the comprehensive plan as presented there. So, uh, and I would like to move that we continue discussion with city council regarding this changes to the comprehensive plan as presented.

I concur with what all of you have said. U, I mean, we've talked about it enough for the last couple of months and it's time to move forward. And also, thank you uh to everyone for coming out. Uh, it means a lot. Seriously. and we uh you know I think we have a lot of the same concerns and and we all moved to precaution for a reason. You know we love it because of what it is. So thank you.

I am also in concurrence. Um I grew up here. I went to the schools and everything of that nature. So I understand that and I want to tell you how grateful we are to have you come out tonight. it takes time on a Monday night to come out and spend it with us um with so many other pressing uh things in our community going on. So, want to thank you. Um I I do agree it's time to move forward with this city council. It's always good to hear what uh the ideas were. I know that we really uh gained a lot in our June retreat with them and so I look forward to that and um hopefully that will give staff direction on how to proceed forward. Uh next we are going to move on uh this evening to item number F on our agenda, communications and correspondence from staff.

Mr. Horton, I don't really have anything except to thank everybody who came out today and thankf course we're only halfway through the city. Mr. Canella.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, we'll start the discussions uh with the city manager's office tomorrow about moving this work session uh forward to have with city council. Um, I'm looking at a December 8th uh date. Um, and depending on if that'll work for uh you all and and of course city council's agenda um that that may be preliminary and maybe too soon. So, it may get kicked to January, but we'll start work uh tomorrow uh on get making that an agenda item uh for an upcoming city council meeting. Um, if that happens on December 8th, I will certainly be with you. But, uh, as you know, we don't have planning commission meetings in November. Um, and I don't believe we'll have one in December other than that. Um, so this is, uh, likely my last night with you all. It has been uh, a good good ride almost uh, well about four and a half years I guess. Wally's had to put up with me. Uh but I want to thank you uh Madame Chair uh and former chairwoman Shrivever and and all the members of the planning commission uh that I've had an opportunity to work with um in that amount of time uh and thank publicly Mr. Horton uh for taking a a chance uh on hiring me u in 2021. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Um, and I'll miss uh in here uh and and you allowing me to serve you. So, uh, anyway I can be helpful to you uh until January 2nd. Uh, give me a call. Anyway, I can be helpful to you after give me a call. It's just going to be in a little bit of a different job. Uh, but anyways, just want to extend my appreciation uh to

you, Madam Chair, and and members of the planning commission, uh, past and present. With that announcement, I would just like to say Thomas, you've been great to work with my short tenure and we wish you the best of luck moving forward, but but the city in my eyes is blessed to have you. We appreciate your leadership and service. So, congratulations.

Yep. I would also like to echo that sentiment and um say that Thomas has always been frequently been my first phone call when I had a question or text or whatever and he always responds right back and uh gives me what I need. So thankful that you've always been there. Thankful for everything you've done for the city and and I wish you luck in your new endeavors. Tom, going to miss working with you and uh wish you the best moving forward. So

thanks for everything. uh you know you've been a big part of the you know you grew I know you grew up here and all that and city council and you've always served the city you basically your whole life and continue to do so and um you know I really means a lot to me what you've helped me out with and everything here and uh forward to you know the the great things you're going to do in the future. So thank you. I'm going to say this and try not to cry a little bit. Um I know

um I it has been an absolute joy to work with you. Um you are one of the first people that I can call or text or meet with and I am grateful for your support. Um and you know I wish you nothing but the best. You are a consmate professional and the city is lucky to have you and we were lucky to serve with you. Thank you for your service. Well, seeing no other business tonight, um I'm going to ask for a motion to adjurnn. Make a motion that we adjourn tonight's meeting. I have a second.

Second that for posterity. Commissioner Armen. Hi. Commissioner Hurt. Hi. Commissioner Hartley. Hi. Commissioner Joerger. Hi, Chairman Shot. I We're adjourned.