Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Yeah. Yeah.

Fair enough. Yeah. No, no, no. That was that was one building. Okay, fair enough. Cool. Thank you very much. Byebye. [Music] How many banks are west of uh Shell Road Chase Bank of the South? It's in Northville. Good evening. Oh, his community up there on five. You're right. Just by the old uh you know Yeah, mothers. Okay, that's it. Those are the only two I can think of.

Citizens and Chase and Chase and Territorial. There's a Huntington on the northeast corner. Five mile shel. Yeah, there used to be one. Now it's a dentist office. The Plymouth Township Planning Commission meeting will come to order at 6:31. Secretary, please call roll. Dennis Sabolski here. Tim Boyd here. Bob Dorschitz here. Steuart Pop here. Dan Callahan here. Bill I here. Dave Lawig here. Full house here. And do we have a motion to approve the agenda as submitted? Mr. Chair, I move we approve the agenda as submitted.

Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Pop to approve the uh agenda as submitted. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. And is there a motion to approve the minutes of our September 17th meeting? Um Mr. Chair, unless there's any revisions, I move we approve the minutes of the September 17th meeting. Second. Moved by Commissioner Bo, supported by Commissioner Pop to approve the minutes of September 17th. All in favor signify by saying I.

Opposed? Motion carries. Is there anyone here that wishes to speak on a non-aggenda item? Okay. On to public hearings. Application 2570. the Michigan Schools and Government Credit Union special land use request and he's going to lead us into that. 570 square foot credit union with three drive-thru lanes on commercial for Detroit House of Corrections site. Uh the site is currently vacant and zoned IND Industrial District under our zoning ordinance. Financial institutions are permitted in this district but only through a special land use approval. The subject property is located south of 5mile road and west of Beck Road immediately west of the planned Meyer grocery store site and the surrounding area consists of mostly vacant or light industrial parcels and commercial parcels with residential and recreation uses located to the north across 5m road in Northville Township. Uh this review again covers a special land use request and a separate site plan will come forward later uh should the use be approved. Uh in section 2.7 of the zoning ordinance outlines six standards for the special land use review and I'll summarize staff's findings for each use. So criteria one deal dealing with harmony with the surrounding area. Um the proposed credit union is smaller and less intense than a typical

industrial use. It does serve uh it is designated as light industrial in the master plan and again surrounding properties are mostly industrial office or vacant with the exception of the Meyer development to the east. Um and while the credit union is not an industrial use, it does support the business and employees in the area by offering convenient financial services. Um, and again, the future land use map does identify this as light industrial. And while the credit union is a commercial use, it does align with this intent by serving the nearby businesses and employees and customers, particularly those working in the nearby. Um, and it can also be considered to be consistent with the broader vision of the master plan as it supports the employee base, strengthen the tax base, and contributes to a designed and functional corridor along 5 Mile. Um, the site is currently a vacant brownfield and it's largely flat with some field grass and scattered trees. It's not um and it will include some gradient utility work, but it's not expected to impact the wetlands and flood planes to the south. And a tree survey and replacement plan will be required during the site plan review if applicable. Uh and we do feel that it does uh meet the intent of the industrial district. Um again, it does support those nearby businesses and employees. And in this case, it does provide convenient financial administrator services to the area. Criteria two dealing with public health, safety, and welfare. So again, the credit union is a low impact service oriented use. Uh it's proposed to operate during normal business hours, and it poses no concerns related to hazardous materials, noise, or heavy

traffic. staff did identify that the submitted lighting plans includes pictures that are taller and brighter than appropriate and we do recommend that the lighting plan be revised to comply with the township's dark sky lighting ordinance standards at the site plan stage. Criteria three uh regarding public services. The site is served by existing water, sewer and storm water systems along five mile road and the project service demand will be minimal compared to typical industrial uses and capacities will be confirmed during the site plan review. Criteria four uh regarding vehicular circulation access to the site will be provided a shared drive from five mile road which does minimize the direct curb cuts and safety and improving safety along five mile. However, the layout does include three internal access drives and staff does recommend that one of these drives be eliminated to simplify circulation and reduce conflict points. Um, and the drive-thru circulation is designed to separate queuing from parking areas, which should support um efficient on-site movement. Um, in addition, the applicant is uh requesting um a modification to the drive-through stacking requirements and will that will be evaluated during the site plan review as well. And then criterion five, dealing with safety and sight standards. Um, again, the use will not create hazardous conditions or conflict with other uses in the area and the proposed layout can meet the township design standards pending site plan approval. Um, so based on the findings, and I'll go over those in a second, staff does recommend approval of the special land use uh for PC 2570 for a credit union with three drive-through lanes subject to the following conditions. Number one, approval of a site plan addressing all

planning, fire, and engineering requirements. Number two, a sidewalk provided through the site, not just along five mile road. Three, one of the three internal access drives is eliminated. And four, the lighting plan is revised and resubmitted to in accordance with the township dark sky lighting provisions at the time of site plan review. And to summarize the recommendation based on the following findings, we found that one, the building is smaller and less intense than typical industrial uses, providing an appropriate transition in land use. Number two, the project supports the master plan's goals for economic diversity and corridor enhancement. Three, development is not impacted is not expected to impact wetlands or flood planes. for the use is low impact with minimal noise, traffic or safety concerns and four, the site will use existing utilities and services efficiently. So, we do find that the proposed credit union is compatible low inensity use that supports the surrounding area while improving the corridor's appearance and service offerings. Um, with the noted conditions, again, staff does recommend approval of the special land use request. That concludes my staff report. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. And the applicant is here.

Yes. Good evening. Uh my name is Mike Blanik. I'm with the firm Stucky Vitality Architects, 27172 Woodward Avenue, Royal Oak. And uh here to uh present the project to you this evening. Uh the the consultant did a great job of explaining our our project. Um Michigan Schools of Government. It has currently, just to give a little history, they have 20 uh three branches right now in southeast Michigan. Um they are a nonprofit. They're based in Michigan, you know, nonprofit with members that they serve all over the tri county, actually the quad area here. Uh currently, you might know of a branch. There's one in Canton on Ford Road, and then there's another one in Leavonia at Farmington and and 8 mile. So, this would be like our third the third branch in the uh Wayne County district here. So, we're excited to put a branch here in Plymouth Township. Um, I can answer any questions. A couple of the comments, the sidewalk, we don't have a problem with that. You know, putting the sidewalk along there, that's fine. Uh, we did show that extra drive just for convenience of members to get back on five mile, but, you know, if that's not going to be approved, we would want to keep the other two drives because they're full movement drives. We don't want to lose those obviously. So, that's kind of our thought on that. But uh we figured a right turn only might give some convenience when people are leaving the site. But I understand if it's not your desire to have that, we'll be we can accept that. You know, um the lighting plan, we'll have that redone to meet your requirements. No problem with that. The building uh materials, it's brick with cast stone. And then um you know, we use we have all screening on the RTUs, full landscaping. um you know the the the building if you're familiar with the one over in Leavonia you might see that's similar to the design of this this new branch here. So um here to answer any questions you might have. I also have the civil engineer here and we have a member uh the facilities person

from MSGU here as well. Thank you. This is this considered an outlot from uh where Meyers will be? Um, it's not tech technically part of the Meyer development or the outlot that was allocated as part of that consent judgment. There's only one outlet that was part of the consent judgment. Correct. Okay. Any questions?

Yeah. Second one along the lines of Dennis's question. If there's a shared access road, what else would is to be sharing on that road? There is approximately 70 acres of land that Retico owns that that boulevard entrance um would go down and that is the remainder of that 70 acres is allocated for industrial office use.

Okay. All right. Good. Thank you. And uh with the three entrances going down to two right having read this article and thank you Dennis for sending it was really good. Okay. It's incumbent upon us to avoid okay the failure modes and and this third entrance that's right by 5 mil makes that a shooting gallery right of traffic coming in and coming out and so keeping the two the one almost lines up with the car car lanes coming in the one in the back is safe as all heck that that's the one I would want to eliminate right for safety sake the one next to five mile right it's just too close and it's in my mind it's too dangerous other comments concerns, questions.

Um, I think this is I think is actually an excellent um proposal for this piece of land. I believe it's a a natural cap to the end of the commercial district along Five Mile Road. Um it is a transition from more commercial uses like drive-ins and you know car washes and messers to a much less intensive um commercial industrial use or technology use from the west side of that of drive all the way less than five mile. I also think it's a a nice layout uh of the of the piece of land. Um, so I I think it's a I think it's a very good proposal all the way around uh with the uh suggestions of the planner incorporated.

Mhm.

Yeah. Laura, I know we've talked when we've been talking about the master plan, we mentioned would this be what we are planning that would be the last sort of I call a retail or commercial use after this we would stick to the zoning. Okay. Wanted to be clear on that. Um, have you considered I mean I like the building, you know, and be interested to see the building materials as well. Um, have you considered in looking at it, uh, it seems like the building is facing toward the, uh, northwest. Uh, have you considered having it face the northeast? Because I think most of the traffic would come from that direction and would give you more visibility. But that's just my suggestion. But I thought, and it's a site plan issue, but I thought I'd bring it up now in case you have a positive uh feeling toward it. There's still time to change it.

Anybody else? Okay. Are we ready for a motion? No. One one more question. Sure. Beside the citizens bank that's on five mile west of Sheldon. I didn't hear the first part. What did you say? the banks that are west of Sheldon Road in the township, right? There's a Citizens Bank on Five Mile just west of Shelton, right? There's a Chase Bank on North Territorial and Sheldon Road, right? I can't think of anything else on the entire west side of the township that's either a bank or credit union. There's a Bank of America to Home Depot or actually just east of Home Depot, just inside the township. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's a north north and there's I think it's a Huntington Bank right where uh the CVS is on Sheldon and five. Yeah. The northeast corner is north side. Not quite on the corner but Yeah. Okay. So there are three credit unions, right? They're not credit. We have lots of money. The only credit union that I can think of is the DFCU, you know, here that's on Ann Arbor Road. Genesis that's on Plymouth and uh Schoolcraft. Uh and of course the one downtown Plymouth. Yeah, that one is Bank of Ann Arbor. I'm talking credit union.

Credit Union. What's the one on Hagerty just south of the Henry Ford place? That's uh Catholic services. No, no, no. That's a That's another Michigan school thing. That's a Michigan educational. Are you familiar with that group? Um, I'm not familiar. So, Michigan Schools and Government has they're like I said, we have 24 branches throughout the area. It has a similar name to yours, but it's not not this they're not this they're not connected. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, there's that one. Forgot about that. No, there's there's quite a few banks around and crediting. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So the only one in that immediate area would be the Bank of America and uh the Co America on the North side. Northville. Yeah. All right. Is there a motion? Chairman. Y uh as especially induced, we do need to open and close the public hearing as well. That we received no written comments though. Okay. All right. So uh we have to vote if we should. Can we open the public hearing at 6:47? Is there a motion? Mr. Chair, I move we open the public hearing at 6:47 p.m. Second.

Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Pop to open the public uh comments. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries. Is there anyone here that wishes to speak to this issue? Okay. Thank you. Is there a motion to close the public hearing at 6:48? Mr. Chair, I move we close the public hearing at 6:48 p.m. Is there second it? Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Iik to close the public uh hearing. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed.

Motion carries. Okay. If there's no further discussion, are we ready for a motion?

Um Mr. Chair uh recommend that we approve the special land used application PC number 2570 for a credit union and drive-through facility with the following conditions. One, approval of a site plan which addresses all planning, fire, and engineering requirements. Two, a sidewalk is provided through the site, not just along five Mile Road. Three, one of the three internal access drives is eliminated. And four, the lighting photometric plan um is removed from the special land use application and a plan that more closely aligns with the township's dark side lighting provision is submitted at the time of the site plan review. This recommendation is based on the findings of fact in the planners report dated October 10th, 2025.

Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner AP to um approve the U special land use for application 2570. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries. Congratulations. Working for working with you'll be back. Okay. Good. Very good. With some pictures and building materials. Okay. Great. That's the best part of the job. Yeah. Bring samples of your product the next but don't bring a toaster. Yeah. Good shot, Bob.

Okay. There's no old business, no new business. Um, and the master plan update. So, Laura, are you going to will you lead us will you lead us through that? Okay.

Yes. Happy to. Good evening, Commissioners. Laura Haw. Um, in your packet is a revised draft action plan that incorporates changes um to the priority level A projects that we discussed at the study session um earlier this month. The request was to review those updated priority level A projects. Some have been consolidated. There were a couple um adjustments with moving uh projects from level priority level B or C up to A or vice versa. Um and to provide any additional feedback before this officially enters the draft document.

It's not in the online version. No. So should we go through this one by one? The first for example the first one is environmental sustainability.

Yeah, I just had one comment. Well uh two there's a spelling issue. Uh third from the bottom require retention of some natural tree stands. But beside that, um, what is like what is require trees in poor condition to be counted for replacement? I mean, like almost dead, you're going to require a brand new tree or what? Um, actually, when you go look at these tree surveys, you'll find that the majority of trees in any tree survey are rated poor. um the the worst rating is very poor, but the vast majority of them will be rated poor. And there's typically a

a list of all the conditions that justify a quote poor tree. My amateur takeaway is that a lot of those trees are decent trees. They just need some maintenance. You know, cutting dead branches, maybe doing other things of that sort. And by my my view is that poor is the criteria that the um arborists use is is to ter to classify the condition of the tree. But I think it uh overstates the um degree of problem. In other words, I think many poor trees can be saved. So I wasn't the one that wrote this, but I do support it. I think it's a good a very good suggestion.

Okay. I guess I just didn't know what poor meant. It's a good question. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know there was very poor. Yeah. Um I wonder if there are standards that arborist, certified arborists would use what classifies a tree as being poor. Yeah. Typically, even on the uh tree surveys that we get from the um people proposing developments on the tree survey page, there's typically a box that defines what each of those criteria are. Isn't that right, um Laura? Isn't it typically like a a box that defines the terms on the actual tree survey page? Um often, yes. Yeah.

On the full survey. So, we could go back to like the Plymouth Walk and pull that development out and there's a there's a a box that describes each of the criteria. Mhm. Yeah. It was just that was a very it was just just a comment cuz I I assume poor meant like really bad and it's like you can't I don't know. Well, I think you're I think you're actually making the exact point which is that poor makes it sound worse than it really is. Yeah. Okay. So I mean I don't poor might mean to me that it could be diseased

or there are major uh branches that have fallen off beginning of rot perhaps. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I I'm not sure diseased would fall under poor. That might be very poor. But you go back and read it. I I think that I think most people would conclude that a poor tree really should be saved unless there's some very, you know, bad element of it, which would tend to knock it down into the very poor, but okay,

you know, I may giving this more credit than it deserves. So we we probably ought to just as a part of the process go back and look at what each of the definitions. Well, yeah, that's the only thing that stood out about this whole tree thing was was that and are those are those uh conditions, you know, those definition points are they recognized by, I don't know, the National Arborous Society or whoever gauges that? Uh I think that they are. I believe the Davy guy told that to me, but again that's a good question. Would you to explore further?

Can we ask our planning team to help educate us on the definitions? Right? Because there could be poor definitions of what a poor condition is. There could be very good definitions. We just don't know any better right now and consistently applied. you know, the quality of of the evaluation should be as as uh uh parallel to what the what the professional standards are. And that's why the point here of having the having it done by a certified arborist is really important because some of the tree surveys we've seen um have not been done by a certified arborist as we know. on the same page, Laura. I think grouping all these together in one place like this makes a lot of sense.

So, it's a good improvement. Good suggestion.

I like the protection in there. That was good first bullet point, right? Protect it from construction. Let's get that defined. Let's get the conditions defined. And on increase in the bond amount, can we do any benchmarking to find out what other communities who are way ahead of us have done? Right? Because this is the Dale Barnhard suggestion from I think maybe a month ago saying, "Hey, go after higher bond monies up front so we're not trying to chase down the road." And will you or someone be contacting the environmental leadership commission about um invasive trees and expanding the list that currently exists?

Yes, this hasn't been shared with them yet. um whatever changes we make tonight, I'll send to them and then they can weigh in on you know the environmental related items and and those changes would also carry through to the policy the broader policy the township uses in looking at the invasive trees list. Right. Correct. Yeah. Good. So, we'll get some kind of definition then of the poor. Oh, yeah. I I think so. I think that's what we would need. Uh that's

professionally recognized, you know, it's not somebody just sitting down and making it up. Yeah. Yeah. No, I Yeah, there has to be a Yeah. A standard. Yeah. Standard. Yeah. Okay. That was the only thing I had there. Anyone else on the environmental sustainability section? No, I just want to resummarize it, right? To to

to to guide us on the best protection on bullet point one to provide that definition on bullet point five, right, on conditions and to quantify a proper higher bond amount. Okay, to really make it, it's a pocketbook thing. And now said people care a lot more about damage and removal.

Yeah. I think we also need to recommend what the uh fines would be if there's a violation of any of this. Taking down a tree that shouldn't have been taken down not or uh taking the trees down before there's a tree inventory. So, uh, I think all of that, you know, would be in our recommendations of the master plan and that's up to the B to Right. So, we make the recommendation, but the board of trustees determines and makes the final call. Yeah. Okay. Because this is a guide, remember, it's not law.

Um, just one other comment. At the top of page four, there's one more bullet point that's actually related to environmental sustainability. And at first I didn't follow it, but if you go back to page 11, which I think is the last page of the deck, um at the bottom uh with the two asterisks, it's defined what a low LI is. And basically, it's a storm water management approach using natural systems and features to protect the water quality of the area. So that fits in I think with this um with this environmental sustainability section. So can we move on to housing and neighborhoods? Okay. Yes. Got one. You have a comment or

No, I'll move on to it. I was I'm ready. Okay.

Okay. I have one, but um on the ADU paragraph, um this can be read a couple different ways. I and I I'm kind of looking Laura for you to define which of these is correct. Um it says the include research and further policy considerations on the prohibition of new accessory dwelling units and under what conditions this might be appropriate. So, are you saying that I mean is the way I would like to see this stay is right off the bat we don't we want a prohibition on all new accessory dwelling units unless and until we define under what conditions they might be appropriate and that would be a very limited number of conditions. But the other way to read this is to say, we're just recommending that we consider a prohibition of new accessory dwellings and under what conditions the prohibition might be appropriate. So, can you clarify which of those two was what you intended in the rewrite here?

Maybe we're missing um a statement after accessory dwelling units that clarifies what the current situation is, right? the accessory going units are not allowed today. So the prohibition would continue is one of there just be a blanket statement up front that says ADUs are not allowed today.

I I so the yellow text um here and then in the second bullet point is the same thing um regarding that footnote on the last page that we just talked about regarding um the low impact development um storm water techniques. I think there's there's too much supporting text um in this action plan that really belongs elsewhere in the plan and if we can reference that and then um provide a greater narrative um with some you know visuals as well I think that will help. So even with the page before with the environmental sustainability, we might just want to say look to page X for recommendations and put all of the bullets on that page. We want to make the action plan usable. Um and you kind of need to look at it at a glance, right? And see all the different projects. Um, and I fear that this is getting a little too long. There's a lot of a lot of good projects on here, but um, it's overwhelming and it's hard to digest all of them, all, you know, all of the near-term priority level A projects at once. So, I think that might be a good solution and then we can go into more detail on some of these topics um, as much as it warrants and less on others. I mean, do we also want to group some together? Like there's a number of sidewalk things in um A, B, and C. And maybe it's just a thought cuz you're right, the list is big. I mean, we could group some of these together. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think you guys tried to group some together.

Oh, yeah. Can we further do that even more potentially? I mean, I you know, I don't I don't think there's any problem with grouping all the sidewalk stuff together, but maybe it was split up because you just can't group it all together, you know? Well, I think it was also a difference of priority. Some of the some of the sidewalk stuff really wasn't a priority where some other was still important but not a priority.

Yeah. like the sidewalk gaps a the you know make the traffic you know on the higher you know pedestrian streets make some of the crossings you know more visible you know things like that um it's just a thought cuz I I was thinking oh yeah there's a sidewalk yeah okay that's another sidewalk thing so I don't know it was just what's going through my mind we could maybe group this together more But if you're worried about, well, that's really an A and that's a C and you can't group them together, then that's, you know, obviously we can't group as many together. But I I still think there is some further grouping we could do if the size of the list is an issue.

Well, if you see items like that, you can note those and and share it with us, too. Or here if we're going to get into it here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that kind of stuff's fine to send through email, right? You can probably the best way would be to Laura to have have those comments sent to you and then you can just vet those out and Okay. Um, okay.

To go back to page four though, Laura, I would be okay with you putting the yellow text um, you know, in the backup area. Um, I think that's a good suggestion. on page one. However, um I think there's some pretty hard-hitting points there that I I would like to see right up front, and I don't want to run the risk of somebody missing some of those points by failing to go back and look at the the backup. So, generally, I agree with your idea, particularly on page four, but on page three on the tree piece, let's just be very careful not to lose the hard hard-hitting ones right up front. Be that's just my view. I agree with you.

Any other comments on page four? Yeah, enhancing the character, right? I love it. This is a do and don't, right? Something I'd love to see us do more is what Laura's been working on with Sarah Bissell on the tree program, right, for the neighborhoods at the entrances, right? It really helps a lot of the neighborhoods look so much better, right? So, if there's a way to enhance that, whether it's funding or whatnot, man, I'd like to include that because that does enhance the character since this is a tree city. It's really a tree township, right? If that's what you're seeing when you drive in, then that's a lot better than a a sign with a light and a couple shrubs. Wait, I'm sorry. I missed it. You're saying So, we have a tree program here instead of the sign.

No, no, no. You you got to have a sign. So, Hidden Creek is Hidden Creek and Beacon Hill is Beacon Hill and Glennwood is Glennwood, right? And and so on and such forth. We have a tree fund here and it's funded by the trees that get pulled out, right? So, I'd love to see the township enhance that funding in a way so more trees can go in so more neighborhoods and HOAs that are asking for trees get approval. That's that's the intent and that falls underneath enhancing the character of existing single unit neighborhoods. [Music] Have any money for that right now? No. But if we create the bond money to make uh penalties bigger, Bob, maybe two, three, five years down the road, we would,

you know, it's an interesting point and I because there's another U recommendation by the environmental leadership committee further on in this document that we look at a township funded um recycling program or or something of that ilk. Let us not forget that one of the very top things that came back in our resident survey was that low property taxes are a key reason people want to live in Plymouth Township. So when we do our master plan, I think we've got to be really careful that we're not recommending actions that would cause Bob cause the us to increase property taxes and and if we want to put a recommendation in like that of the environmental leadership committee, we need to say something to the effect of it would be done without raising property taxes or we would need to find uh um alternative sources of saving money to fund that action. And I I would put the trade program under the same scenario.

That's fine. Yeah. I think I think Bill's uh comment was really directed on on fees that would be put onto the developer. Well, that's actually not Yes. Not not by me. Okay. So, in other words, you're saying that the penalty fees that would result from would

developers not follow. Okay. I got you. But Laura, I think when uh remember we had that committee that met once or twice uh trying to identify areas to plant the trees that we were getting from Wabasco and and Sarah was in that group. Wasn't there a DTE did this green leaf fund or I I just remember vestages of that discussion. Do you remember that or familiar with it?

Yes. over the I don't know eight past eight years Sarah and I and the ELC have applied for the DTE tree um planting program and it's been um awarded several times. So that also you know there's grant funding out there to support tree planting programs. another source of funding.

Um, our our subdivision, Fox Point, this year, we've benefited from the tree program probably half of the entire years it's been offered. They don't give us to us every time because there's other subdivisions that want it, but this year we dedicated all of our trees to the front um, rightway along Ridge Road. And Sarah made a comment to our people that she really appreciated that approach because it is a visual benefit to everybody that drives down Ridge Road, not just the people inside our subdivision that go up to the common area. So, it's good point. It

It's a great thing that the township does. I can't stress that enough. And I know they have way more applicants and requests than budget and quantity of trees to pass out, right? So, when you take out invasive trees like like Hidden Creek did and you put the seven that we got all up in the front, you see them as soon as you drive in and it replaces what was taken out with something that's good and healthy instead of something that is bad for surrounding neighbors trees. So, there's a big star there for people working on that tree program. It's a winner. Uh on page four, the bottom is mobility and transportation. This kind of summarizes the points we made in our last meeting and the other feedback that we provided. Is everybody okay with the revised version here?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Um on to page five on civic and community planning. Uh there's one I think it's a typo here. the uh second from the bottom sentence uh principles I think should be principles pl instead of ps I'm right okay

any comments on the rest of page five [Applause] um moving on to page Six um questions on the first area.

Yeah, I just had a comment. I mean, I'm still worried about all the vacant buildings in the tech parks and I I know you're saying the diesel thing with child care and the trucks and all that. I mean, there aren't I haven't taken an official survey, but there just aren't a ton of trucks in the tech. I mean, it's way more cars than trucks, really, you know. So, I I don't I don't know if we want to specifically say no child care or youth educational uses in any of the buildings. I That's just a thought. I I there's just a lot of vacant spaces and a lot of people work there. So I I don't know if uh if we want to eliminate, you know, child care, I guess.

Yeah, that is a little bit strong. Strong. Yeah. What if we say minimize? Actually, I've had a similar feeling. Yeah. And when you think even many of our schools are on major highways. Yeah. So, uh, and the feeling was originally the Demario development, there was a, and I think it's still there, a child care facility right in the middle. Uh, the one uh, east of Beck and of course the one right on Beck. Uh, and the feeling was that was to provide like like was just stated on our special land use. Uh, it was a convenience for the employers employees.

Yeah. uh drop their kids right there close to their work in case there's an emergency, you know, pick them up. Agreed. So, we were change eliminate to minimize. Is that what's being proposed? Or just dump the whole thing, but I don't know. I guess softening up is is okay. And we did approve the one there was a gymnastics facility there. Those they meet mostly in the evening. So any truck traffic would be nil. Didn't they move or are they still there? I don't know. Euro stars. Yeah, I think they moved down to Canton. Oh,

I thought I saw the sign on maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, we also for the ZBA back I don't know four or five years ago we approved approved one in the um office park east of back in south of 5 Mile in that area there there was another vacant building that we approved [Music] yeah because I was on the board of uh new new school high and at some point we were potentially going to potentially look for a new building Um, and the industrial buildings, the size is really good, you know, especially if you, you know, cut them up.

Yeah. You know, and so many vacancies. I don't know. Maybe they're bargains. I mean, I'm not sure what they go for, but I mean, maybe facility being used and paying property taxes. It's Yeah, it's a plus. Yeah, that's I think you know if you think about industrial areas putting a um child care facility in the middle of the rouge area. Well, I mean that doesn't make sense. That would be stupid. But the uh expression, but these office parks are actually pretty nice areas. Yeah. You know, but there is a a public school right across from the Rouge plant. I'm sure there is. Yeah. Yeah. They used to uh

keep the windows were sealed shut and the air was pumped in after it was cleaned. Are you serious? It's improved now when all the air quality there is so much better than it was 30 40 years ago.

Okay. Any other comments on that? Um Laura, I did have one question here on the first bullet. who said this adaptive reuse can increase recreational offerings and attract new residents. Example, the area near Regge and back north of M14. Is that is that the area you're referring to as the portion of what was the racetrack facility? The uh the open area to the south or or if not, what what was that specific area?

Southern edge of the industrial parks there. that's part of the existing plan or it's proposed or is that is that a proposal or does it already exist? these uh you said it's recreational offerings that are on the south part of the business park. Well, this would this would be targeting that area for new recreational offerings.

Oh, I see. Okay, gotcha. Okay. Okay, that makes sense.

Any other comments on page six? Um, I don't know where I put it yet. I mean, I I think the aging in place thing is kind of important. Where are you now? On what page? Middle of page six. Oh, six. Okay.

I mean, I don't know. that was kind of important on the survey. So maybe that could move up a a few notches, but that was the only thought I had cuz there I don't think we have a ton of um Well, wait, this is another thing that some of these things can be grouped together cuz isn't there like another senior thing? Is is this related to the senior housing potentially or no or it's separate? This is just saying keep in mind have a first floor master thing. I mean, uh, where where was the

So, are you suggesting that we could take that housing and neighborhoods piece and add it to page four under housing and neighborhoods? Yeah. Which Yeah. Um, yeah, that might make sense. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And again, under that scenario, Laura would maybe she'd she'd state the major point on page four, but then it would refer to backup that would go into more detail. Yeah.

Yep. That's fine. Well, that that bullet point right there that we're talking about, the second bullet point on under housing and neighborhoods on page six. It sort of uh echoes your suggestion when we met the last time. Yeah. Yep. So, we'll add lump it in on page four. Tim, it's a good suggestion. Yeah, I think it should be month.

Okay. All right. Let's go on to page seven. Any comments? Yeah. I mean, I think the last two sound like bees, but I don't know. I mean, um, they do,

but yeah, I mean, maybe the A's are we need more A's. I mean, there was a few B's I thought that potentially could be A's. That's why I mentioned it. So, or were there specific things that I mean with these last two things in the A's, are there specific examples you were thinking or or this just a um thought to increase the buffer or you know to go from higher

to lower density. Well, we do hear from we do hear neighbors, you know, sometimes they'll say, "Well, there'll be a 50ft buffer between something that they don't want and where they live." And 50 ft to me is not that wide if you're looking at it that way. So, I think that to me that that addresses a point that we hear a lot of in public hearings. The last one.

Okay. I think the environmental sustainability one is more of a specific recommendation on a particular topic than it is a broader topic here and maybe it fits under one of the um actions. For instance, on page f I'm just winging this. I just looked at it on page eight the third criteria is environmental sustainability implement applicable actions from the middle rouge river wershed management. We could put the um the one from page seven as a second bullet under that criteria. I think to me it it fits it does fit your matter

because pesticides do run off. They do get in the waterershed. They do go down the drains and it just it's a problem and it I think you captured it on the B and item page eight. So just move it there and that way it's one of the two that Stuart was referring to. Okay. So, page seven is the last of the priority level A projects.

Any others before we go on to priority B? Unless we find some B's. That should be A. I think we'll see that when we go through the review. Yeah. The uh the first one on the B on housing neighborhoods just that the Canton put an N in there. Yeah. Spelled. Yeah. But it's it's important. Yeah, it is. Very very important.

All right. The second one reminds me of the bottom on page five. It's this being more flexible on I guess obsolete buildings or older buildings. Can they be combined or separates better? I I don't for different uses. cuz that could the second on page, you know, this the second of the beast can just be another bullet point on the other,

but maybe it's not. It sounds like the second bullet point in the one that's on page five. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was kind of similar. That's a good suggestion. So, we'll combine that with existing wording on page five.

Yeah, that's what I would say. important. I do want to make clear though that when we're done with this, we want to clearly have the words that say evaluate potential for different uses on vacant or obsolete industrial or office sites and consider missing middle housing as a viable land use. That consideration of missing middle housing is really important for this in my opinion my view and making sure we address missing middle housing in Plymouth Township without taking other actions that might not be desirable in the bigger picture.

Mhm. The only thing I I don't know if we need to add this or it would be part of a review, you know, if we do this is that if we do convert industrial or office to to housing that it still be harmonious with the surrounding area that that that would be, you know, you don't want to stick a residential, right? Um, you know, development in the middle in the middle of complet Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I don't know if that would be done through the review process or if that's something that uh because people might read this and think, well, I don't want some

Yeah. I mean, the poster child for this recommendation was when we were talking about the site at the southwest corner of um Plymouth Road in Hagerty where all of the the land use to the west and southwest clearly moving in the same direction, right? Yeah. You mean turning more residential? More residential. Yes. Turning away from industrial. Yeah.

Um Dave, you've been really quiet in all this. Do you have some thoughts? I'm just taking it all in. Of course, you've been a contributor in the earlier versions of this, so maybe that just means we took good notes. Yeah. What's I don't see the point of having that solar thing as even a line item. I mean, consider municipal buildings fitted with solar panels in the roof where they would be most efficient. Well, isn't that common sense or no? That was one of the recommendations of the environmental leadership committee, right?

It was. Yes. I don't think that the township is actively considering that or other renewable energy elements or sources in any new construction. So, I would say it doesn't hurt to have it in here. I don't think it's very feasible. Yeah, we don't have a lot of municipal buildings. We have this one in DPW. Yeah, I would say solar pan, solar panels or other non-renewable energy because the technologies changes and something else could come up, right?

Where where was the wording on that again? Which page? It's on page eight. Eight. The box at the bottom. Okay. Yeah. answer. Okay. Um that's the right place to put it if you're going to put it anywhere either on the roof or as a fence and or they had parking shed, you know, a carport type thing. Those are a lot more money than put on the roof. The federal 30% kicker goes away if you don't break ground by the end of this year and finish by July 4th of next year. priorities change. You know, it could four, eight years from now, it could be something different.

Would it be appropriate on this to say consider municipal buildings and also encourage development, commercial development to consider? Yes, we were we were uh that was being pushed when we were considering the uh horse track race. Remember, they were going to have the proposal was that they would do that. Okay. It I think it's a logical ad, Tim. To your point, it's very logical for commercial as well on the roof, not just municipal. I wouldn't want to suggest that we require it, right? Only that

when they come in to review the initial plans with Laura the and the team that they would say, "Hey, have you thought about solar panels?" And I would address your comment, Bob, about not having very many municipal buildings to put solar panels on. And Dan, you haven't really said anything. Are you you okay with this? You got anything you want to add? So far.

So far. Okay. Keep our fingers crossed. Should move on to page nine. [Applause] Yep. Or I mean now I'm fine. Um this is the one the third one down where I talked about the the township funded community waste. We need to find offsetting funding so that it doesn't increase property taxes. Bob, maybe you have better words than that.

Have you has there been any followup on in Lake Point where they're doing that, you know, recycling their household waste? You put it on the in a pale on the front porch? No. Uh, are you talking about clothing or No, it was waste. You know, coffee grounds and that kind of stuff. I don't remember that kind that conversation. It was at I think at some meeting where they were going to they were I don't know that we were doing it or were going to do it. It was some company that was um offering that. I think it was on a trial for a year. Oh, there's not a lot. No, but it is on it. I mean, it's available. It's available.

Okay. But what do you $30 a month? How much? About $30 a month. Oh, what do you what is it? They give you a waste container. Um, it's holds five pounds. It's like five bucket with a re um a compostable bag and it's that sealed lid and you put your compost, any kind of food waste. And that includes anything compostable, whether it's meat or bones or eggshells, anything organic.

Anything organic. even like napkins and paper plates, all that can be put in there because it's all compostable and it's been working for us, but you know, I I it's going to be a hard sell. I think 30 bucks a month and they're they're looking at cheaper ways, too. I just had an email asking if if we would price if they just throw it on 30ucks and then it could be $10 off making it $20 a month. And don't you get some free stuff?

Free compost. I think we get two five. We only do it every other I mean they pick it up every two weeks for us. We weren't making we didn't have enough waste for funding. You get two big buckets compost in your garden.

Yeah. Yeah. Already turned back into dirt and stuff like that. So, it's a really good program and you know, it would be nice if they had more day of collection, but I think our contract doesn't expire with trash until two more years. So, it's a pilot thing at this point, isn't it? It's it's a pilot thing, right? That's what I remember. I think with other communities, they've had it more successful, but I mean, they I think there's maybe maybe 20,

but I like it.

Um, you know, There's you can do a version of that just in individual houses. I mean maybe maybe there's a way to you know provide information to the community and how people can compost in their own at their own uh house. Maybe we could provide the information about the test so that it's a decision that's done by HOAs as opposed to taxing the township with having to fund it. People would be concerned about the smell of course and and rodents, but I know uh one of my neighbors just has a uh big uh well, I guess you could a container sort of like a concrete mixer, you know, he puts it in there and then, you know, turns it every so often and

and he uses that in his uh flower garden. Yep. That's what I do. Works really good. Mhm. Okay. Then the second one, minimize a proliferation of auto related uses, drive-throughs, auto repair. Is that is that because of traffic? Is that the main crux there or we just think we have too many auto things on Ann Arbor Road or what? Well, they generate a lot more traffic. I mean, uh, conflict points, if you will, because they're drive-throughs, cars are coming in and out. I think that's one consideration and there's an awful lot. There's a lot there's a lot. You know, I

I think this is also very responsive to the feedback we've heard from the community time and time and time again that people do not want Ant Arbor Road to become road. Traffic traffic. So, best ways to make that hopefully prevent that from happening. That's that's the major commercial road. I mean, it could be commercial if if it were better planned or improved. I mean, the commercial we already have on it, we're not going to go tear down the buildings.

No, I just saying any additional things that come along. I mean, I I'm I believe somehow we need to be responsive to the community's concern about Ann Road not becoming Plymouth Road or not becoming Ford Road. And if this isn't the right wording, maybe we need to come up with something else that addresses it. But I'm I believe that's a key concern of the community that we need to address in the master plan.

I'll send you a a image. I'll send it through and uh I sent it to uh the planning department, but I can send it to each of you where I did a my own little mini study on Ann Arbor Road from Sheldon West to the uh into the entry point to the apartments behind Kroger and there are like 22 or 23 curb cuts. Wow. Wait, from Shell Balden Road west to the apartment entrance behind Kroger. It's on both sides of the streets, right down both sides of both sides of the street. Because the condos is a speedway because

of the gas station, the gas stations and then FedEx and uh it's not just that. I mean, I I just did, you know, I concentrated on that. But when you look at the other area, and this is in the city, so I didn't include it, but if you look in that area, like from where the AT&T building is going eastward, you know, you got the chicken place, you got that, there are a lot of curb cuts there, one right after another. Yeah, there. In fact, there it is right there. Sure. Sure. There's many. Can you and you see the the numbers? Did the numbers come through? Yep. Yep. Okay. 23.

Yeah. 20. And then you see I measured it on Google how many yards that is and then how many yards just to uh uh to Sheldon the the short distance were and there are a lot of conflict points there as you know when people are trying to make a left turn they're trying to get you know you're going straight people are trying to get into Kroger's that's a big problem right there I go there every day I I know I think yeah most of us do so yeah no the traffic's heavy, but I like the Kroger there. I don't want it to be in Canton, but I want the Kroger here. So,

we're not suggesting that we take it out. I mean, we it got expanded. I mean, we just can't have a bunch of parts. I think the key word that Laura wrote in here is proliferation, right? So, we'll see. Let's I mean, most of them are on the city of Plymouth sighting on a road. Okay. the Plymouth Auto, the Midas, right? If you go to the township side, right, there is I think there was maybe one. There's that stretch of them. Yeah, there's a Yeah, Bell Tire. Yeah, is one uh that's the shopping center just west of Bell Tire. Bellt is a new or auto thing next door to the old Wendy's. There's a

used to be at Mitus. And then there's the auto detail shop next to Manis. There's uh auto um is out of one. There is it which what what auto parts store next to the bank and there's a gas station. There's five in that block. How's there only three? Well, I was looking at auto repairs where you're parking cars to get mechanics turning and wrenching and and you have less traffic with that than you do with a part store in a gas station. You can cut the car dealerships too cuz they're service stations really. It's not just going to buy a car.

Yeah, they got hoists the Jeep Chrysler. It's on both sides of the road, township and city. Sir, if we emphasize the word proliferation to minimize the proliferation of them, does that make you any more comfortable with the idea or is it still causing heartburn?

Oh, so how would you phrase it? Actually, just the wording she has here. Yeah. minimize the minimize the maybe minimize the further proliferation. Maybe that would be a better but a okay I mean part of it is the is the wording cuz a drive-thru like a drive-through coffee place is not an auto I mean I don't I wouldn't call that auto related. I mean auto repair and car washes and a dealership certainly are auto related. Well, yeah, but it is because people are using autos to access the drive-thru, right? It's auto dependent.

Yeah, dependent. Yeah. Walking through the drive-thru. I think we could expand on this a bit, too, just to recognize that the public has asked for a greater variety of uses on Ann Arbor Road. We constantly hear grocery stores, um, markets, um, additional restaurants that aren't, you know, drive-thru or just quick pickup. So, so can we just then I think what you're saying is let's take this paragraph and redo it with this additional input and see if we can come to something that we're all more comfortable with and our five minutes

cuz I mean any business you need a car I mean I don't see many people walking on on Ann Arbor Road so well do you think it's pedestrian friendly Ann Arbor Road? No. Well, that's why they're not working. And there's not really places for them to walk. Well, we'll make it pedestrian friendly. What was your point, Laura? Oh, there's not really places for people to walk, too. So, unless you have demand, right? Right. I I think clarifying it as auto dependent. Yeah. I think auto dependent is a better term. Yeah. It's a better choice. Yeah. And we can say further proliferation

further minimize the further proliferation of autodependent uses. Well, it's really businesses, but okay. Uses um along in our are you going to throw throw dealerships in there? I mean, how's that any different? Well, I don't think it's intended to be a all-encompassing statement. And I think these were just examples of autodependent uses and there's probably a bunch of other ones too. But I think the the point about the drive-throughs is the amount of traffic generated by a drive-thru Yeah.

restaurant is more than the amount of traffic generated by a destination restaurant. Then maybe at the end of that say, you know, state that the point is the traffic, right? So reduce traffic congestion. That's what this was getting at, right? That's what they all want. Conflict points that's caused. And this is a perfect example. When you you know, we've all driven by there where people are making a left, you're going straight, the road narrows. There's all kinds of conflict points there. Yeah. Uh

good. Well, let's let's uh Laura took good notes there, and I'm sure she can come back with something that we're all more comfortable with. So, good good conversation. Anything else on page nine? Um, I do want to point out this this graphic that Dennis had created. I think it is a helpful visual on just how many curb cuts there are. And when you take a look at even M DOT's recommendations for um the spacing between curbs on a 45 m hour um per hour road, which you know and that doesn't set the safest standards. So, um, you know, take take that for what you will, but where we have one through six right west of, um, Sheldon, um, you should maybe have two curve cuts in that span. And that's just by M dot standard to be safe. And there's six.

So, this this is a lot compared to not even that safe st not even that safe of state standards. So it really is an issue. So we never looked at it in the P. I mean that was never a concern. It wasn't uh well it was always a concern but I don't think we ever looked at curb cuts because we ne we don't have uh the authority about curb cuts. Okay.

Uh so we never really pay that much attention to it. It causes it causes me to call into question uh especially on Ford. We all know what that's like. Well, why wasn't that addressed early on in the development process? Cuz I remember traveling for road and that, you know, were so congested. It was hardly any commercial. A few little gas stations or something here and there. There was nothing there. When Myers was built there, it was a two lane. And at one point, Ford Road was a three-lane highway. The center lane was for passing only, right? Yeah.

Uh, and so why did how did this ever happen? Now they're spending millions of dollars putting a boulevard in there hoping to alleviate some of those issues. I don't think we'll ever be able to have a boulevard here. So, I think we really need to look at the issue of curb cuts and the uses. Mhm. Um, to try to we hear that from the people all the time. Mhm. Don't turn in a can. It's even in the surveys. Pardon? Don't turn into Canton on Ann Arbor Road. You mean don't turn it into Ford Road. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that for project we approved today, there was no curb cut out. That was the beauty of it.

The the credit union and we have to we should be more sensitive to to that issue. Right. So, I think Five Mile Road will look better than Ann Arbor Road in the end, I would think. But it's not going to be as busy either. So, well, the residential. We'll see. You see what Northville's doing with condos and houses and buildings. They're going gang busters. Yeah. It won't be very long. And when Salem Springs opens, that's really going to have an impact. Yeah, it could. Right. Can we wrap up page nine? Mhm. A wrap. Okay. So, page 10

and now we're going to the sea level project. Gosh, we're making progress here, folks. Oh, great. That's a That's a zero. Yeah. Long. So, the first one, prioritize industrial and high-tech developments. I mean versus what? I mean, distribution. Versus distribution. Warehousing. Okay. I see storing equipment on land. Okay. Just storage. Yeah. It doesn't add jobs. Good example. Um Yeah.

At Plymouth Walk directly across the railroad tracks, it's a bunch of gravel trucks back there. That's an industrial use. Yeah. So warehousing. Okay. No, that's that's fair now that I know what Yeah. the versus was I think we have one typo under fourth from the bottom. Civic and community planning. Yep. It should say lead by example instead of by example.

Yep. [Music] Should we be looking I'm asking Laura this question. Should we look We've talked about this in the past, but should we be looking at parking standards again? So, uh I don't know. Do we reflect that here anywhere? We talked about it, but I'm not sure it's I don't I don't call Cena right now. I mean, so things aren't a sea of black top, right? Like over here. Yeah.

Would would that fit back with the recommendation about moving parking and commercial um developments to the back of the lot, keeping the the the stores at the front somewhere. We've got that written in here. Maybe we could combine those.

It was in B if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, actually it's on page six or page eight. Civic and community planning, the fourth one down for non-industrial developments require that new op street parking areas be located behind buildings. So we could uh amend that to include the U proposed revised parking standards. Is that would that capture it?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Or revisit. And also that also improves the walkability. I'm thinking again about Ann Arbor Road.

Uh, you know, you're walking AC, you know, we spend a lot of time looking at the look of the building and then we stick it in the back and then you got all the cars parked in front of it. Is this um Laura again asking your expertise here? Is there a track record that when com in commercial developments, business developments, when the parking is pushed behind the building, does that impact the success of the enterprise in any negative way or is it

No, I mean, there's buildings like that um that have that orientation on Ann Arbor um road and there Well, I'm thinking where um the town houses are. And then there's that area. That's this one. That all the AutoZone Bank of Ann Arbor. Okay. Yeah. But then then all you're looking at with the Autozone especially is all you see is a brick wall. Yeah.

You know, you go up Hackard Road and into Commerce. They do that by the meer that's on north of 14 milei road and all you see is the back doors of of buildings. I mean I it I think I'd rather watch cars or see cars in the back doors. Yep. And so would I.

And then the they they receive everything between the buildings and the road and they have the dumpsters or the garbage cans between the building and the road. And it's I mean that is unique there in the way they have it set up, but it's very it it's they basically don't utilize the front of the building at all. And they they you walk in and if you walk into Red Olive, you walk through, you know, back door of the thing and through the kitchen almost and through the bathrooms before you enter it. I mean it it's got to affect the business or something.

I would agree with you and it doesn't affect the building of it. My experience in business over my years has been location location and visible um you know presenting yourself to the public and I I I think you make a really good point. So we've got to be careful in how we approach this. Yeah. And I I know of a of a shopping area where they had the parking was behind. So they had doors back there and they also had doors in the front because that was a little more pedestrian friendly.

And then it ended up that the uh business owners would lock the front door because it opened them up to thievery. They could just walk right through. You have to have cash registers, right? Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, that is a good point u on how you would make that work. Yeah.

Okay. Um I on page 11 um the third one down, mobility and transportation explore opportunities to connect neighborhoods to one another via pedestrian pathways. I think that is really cool. I I think that should not be a C. I mean, the walkability thing is kind of a big deal in the surveys. I mean, that should at least be a or I think that should move to a B. I don't really get that.

How would that be different than having a sidewalk between the neighborhoods? I just assumed it would just be more sidewalks, I guess. But if there already is a sidewalk, then yeah, then I don't know what else you would do. Unless there's more to it than that. I I took it with this meaning, well, maybe we're missing stuff then. I don't know. Maybe not. No, you're right. I mean, a sidewalk is pretty much it. Yeah,

this is a really good thing to do if we can make it happen. A lot of the single family areas of Ann Arbor were developed with these sidewalks and they really do connect neighborhoods really well. But the problem for us is most of Plymouth Township was developed already and I the idea of having to acquire easements from existing property owners I think could be real problematic. So um that prevent us does that prevent us from doing sidewalks on some lots then? Well, if if the if the lots exist and people own the lots, I think it, you know, you

we got a way around that. Uh we're putting the sidewalks in the right away. That's why some of the new sidewalks are so close to the street. Um because uh if the homeowner says no to an easement, we just say, "Well, we're going to put it in the right away." Yeah, but I was under the impression this was more back in in neighborhoods kind of back in them as opposed to right on the road because on the road you're exactly point on. Was this intended to be just kind of along the major roads or is it intended to be trying to think of an example like somebody's backyard?

Yeah. In the middle of in the middle of Trailwood where there's a court at the end of a court, would we propose putting a sidewalk in between the end of the court and the next major street beyond the court, say north of the court? It would have to be sight specific, but there are those trails and trailwood already. There are several Mhm.

that are paved sidewalks or just dirt paths that do exist and are used by the neighborhood. Um when you look at some of the cluster housing developments, uh there are a lot of common areas. So you're not going through someone's backyard. You're going through a dedicated common area already. Um and that's a much easier easement to acquire. We have done this um on a smaller scale with the Margate development, right? That's a easement that connects that neighborhood to the school and Ann Arbor Road. Um Lichfield to the north.

Mhm. um that has a pedestrian pathway um between those two neighborhoods. So, it is possible. Yes. But Margate, I was thinking about that area. So, Margate will you could still walk from Margate to the new proposed uh Plymouth Farms. Correct. Uh the one that's left out unfortunately is Village Manor.

I mean, they have an internal sidewalk, but but you can go in Village Manor. you can walk to uh the middle school and you could, you know, after crossing um the street, you know, the street, you can walk over to Bird, not Bird, but um Ispister. So, we have that area and the area that Deer Creek and uh Ridgewood and all of that, you can walk through that. I've walked through all those neighborhoods. You can do that. They're they're all connected. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, Fox Point isn't that's like a No, we are we're connected right to your creek at Hunter Creek.

No, but No, the other isn't that uh the one that is to the north of your sub that one that one street compound for. Yeah, they're not. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, they're not connected. Um so I think what we're really suggesting in this is it needs to be for areas of new development. um you know advocate for um okay this these pedestrian pathways.

And then the other thing would be um a lot of our neighborhoods with common areas um when they were installed there was an asphalt path that was put uh the depth of one lot but then it stops. So you have the common areas like Plymouth Commons got all that big common area but the access path is only deep to one lot. um in our subdivision. Not that this is any great stakes, but um our HOA decided to go ahead and pave a pathway that went all the way through the common area to the other entrance and it's really nice. People walk their dogs every day. Um it's it's it's a real amenity. So maybe what we could do here is encourage HOAs to consider adding um pedestrian pathways through existing common areas. Suggestion. So in Ridgewood Hills when they developed that there were supposed to be pathways through the common areas but the developer never did it

and the HOA had a vote which you know when all the homeowners they didn't want it especially the ones that would have been affected. So uh the the developer ended up giving I don't know 15,000 $20,000 to them and they planted a bunch of trees. It's interesting in our subdivision. I know there were some people that didn't like the idea. I was probably one of them because I back to the comments, but it's it's been a great amenity. Everybody loves it. So, anyway, we'll take a vote on it. Yeah. No, let's just It's a way it's a way to address this, but provide a little bit more detail, Stuart, to your

to your point. Okay. Anything else on page 11? I had Tim one thing on page 10. If you go to the bottom, fourth from the bottom, civic and community planning, it says lead by example. That might want to be lead by. Is that supposed to be a by? Yeah. Lead by example. Mention that. Yeah, we Yeah. Yeah. We didn't we mention that? Okay. Yeah. Oh, I missed it. I'm sorry. Okay, good. Double check. taking taking. Yeah. No, I was looking and reading stuff on page 11 at that point. There you go.

So, um we've been through the entire action plan. Um we have some minor revisions which Laura will do for us, but basically this is getting close to completed work. Do you want to talk about this article that uh Yeah, why don't we? I have one question though about the historic character, which I don't think there's any historic character at all, but don't say that to I know. Well, speaking of that, does anyone know what's going on with that with the llama house with the, you know, the mushroom house? I mean, it's a shame if that gets torn down. I mean, it's it's a pretty unique thing. You're talking back in Ann Trail. Yeah, it was uh

I mean, they tried to rent it, they tried to sell it. I don't know. And Ino it and it was trashed. Pardon? It's trashed. Yeah, it was. Did they tear it down? No, it's No, he sold it though. Uh, so I'm not sure who owns it now, but it's all trashed inside. It can't It can't be It's got to come down. Just knock it down. Okay. Right. No. Yeah. There there actually is history in Plymouth Township and Dennis's publication from the historical commission is really quite interesting in some of the Did you get the publication? I read it, but it's how can you say there's no history? It's a handful of homes is all it is. It's barn.

Okay, I'll have a barn somewhere. I'll have you I'll have Wendy Harless call you. I know. I went on a tour of the oldest home in Plymouth and Plymouth Township, which is the one on um North North Territorial with the barn. So I that's one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's always a repair guy there it seems like. But I mean that's Yeah. It's like five or six homes, you know. Yeah. A lot more than that, wasn't it, Dennis? What? It was a lot more than that. There's a lot more than that. There's one on Ann Arbor Trail that was a Civil War veteran over there.

Uh Wendy and Jack Dempsey did a lot of research on that one. It's in the book. You could you could read about it. If anything, we need to figure out a way to get the story out to a website. I That's Yeah, I I think we need to I mean that's why I was pointing this this out really because it's like enhance the understanding of Plymouth Township historic character. But I mean, I don't know what it is. You're breaking my heart. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was saying that's your stance. What? That's your stance to live with it. No, I'm saying I like We could make up We could make things up. Uh I mean, who who is who's going to prove us wrong?

I mean, we have we have we have the uh the mill where, you know, that's been completely refurbished. That guy's working on the other one that's in the city. We had the Battle of Plymouth and the War of 1812. No, that's Monroe. I don't I don't think it got this far north. Okay. Okay. Um let's to kind of wrap this up, can we can we agree that we are done reviewing this version of the action plan? Okay. And then let's go on Dennis to your u you raised this up. I just printed it up. Okay. Well, I mean Okay.

Yeah. You

sure? Okay. My only point here is that um some of you all have missed this because you're relatively new. But over the last maybe three or four or five years, there's been a real push at a national level to um address um housing issues in major metropolitan areas. And what's happened is, and again I this is not really applicable to Plymouth Township at this point in time, but we need to be aware of this. There's been a push to basically set aside single family housing and push in much more dense uh housing developments um four or fivetory apartment buildings and so forth. And this is particularly interested in in because in California um there was a new law passed um at the state level that basically said that in eight metropolitan areas in California, the state can go in and overrule local planning commissions and basically reszone single family housing areas that are nearby to major transit hubs. So, railroads, subways, you know, the the mass transit areas in Southern California. Um but what's really interesting is the local communities including um some of the mayors of of these Democratic cities which typically this is a a um strategy that is endorsed more by Democrats in general than Republicans. Although there's some Republicans who are tied to um building builders and so forth who support it too. But what's really interesting is that the local mayors and and communities now are saying stop. Wait a second. So it's just it's it's an interesting update on this continued issue. So if you get a chance and just recommend you read it.

I think it's it's another approach to uh try to resolve this housing issue, the shortage and affordability. That's what it really boils down to. It's a different approach uh than what we've uh it's almost an overreach uh beyond local control to me

and in in the in the process of doing that you're uprooting communities that are exist in our vibrant and community. It's I mean it's it's not as bad as what happened to Black Bottom and downtown Detroit, but it's the same type of conflict, I guess, between taking what you have and trying to change it for something that in theory is better, but could actually be be worse. So, just a information point. So, you have what you need, Laura, after this review. Okay,

I do. Um, I did want to bring up the feasibility of having a November study session on the 5th if that if we can get majority of folks present. And Laura, what we would be doing on that would be going through the rest of the proposed master plan updates in terms of the sites. Yes, the November planning commission meeting is the regular meeting is looking very busy. So, it would be nice to be able to devote some time to that separately.

Are we Is there a date we're trying to get this done by? Are we trying to get it done by end of the year or what? No. Uh what is it? The the March March trustee meeting. Yeah, it's going to it's going to bleed into next year. Um the supervisor has a revised schedule. So once signed off on it, then I can share it. Um we'd like to finish, we'd like for the planning commission to wrap up the draft this year and then there's a lengthy public um input period, 63 days minimum, um

in various meetings that the planning commission and the township board have to have for additional public input. So that would that would happen next year. Early next year sometime. Okay. So there'll be a November meeting and you expect the early December one too then. Yeah. Okay. And that meeting our regular meeting I'll call our business meeting is the second Wednesday. Oh, right. Right. Because of Christmas. Yeah. Okay. Yes. The 10th. December 10th. So that's a yes for November 5th, right?

Can everyone make it? I don't think I can, but continue on without me. I can miss you 5th. November 5th. Yes. My wife is having surgery on the 3, but uh depending on how that turns out, I you know, I'll make every effort Okay. You want to look at a different date? No, let's just keep it on the 5th. I'll find it if if it's an issue, I'll find a um a resolution on my end. Okay. Thank you. And then December 3rd, right? I mean, it sounds like

I don't know if December 3rd is going to be necessary. Okay. Um Okay. But just the regular November meeting is we've got a lot of agenda items. So Okay. Okay. Good good progress. Thank you everybody for your input on this. Thank you for your hard work. It's wonderful. So the next thing on the agenda [Music] uh any questions on the um monthly planning report? No questions, comments.

Will does the Praise Baptist lots split have to come before the planning commission? No, it doesn't come before us. Okay. They lance lots used to but we've turned it over to the supervisor. Okay. It's sort of a cut and dry process. It was the days when we were having very very lengthy uh meetings and so we just

No questions on that. Any comments from the commission?

Yeah, I have one. Um last night we had um with respect to the El Car wash property, they um applicant had filed a um uh a motion in the circuit court to have the judgment set aside and um we uh filed an opposition to that motion. And so last night the board of trustees took it up in a close session and when we came out we voted to uh continue to um uh oppose that uh setting aside of that judgment. So that pro that probably means that it won't happen. It doesn't necess it's not for sure but um so that's a blocking point for the alcar wash and I think that makes the decision easy.

Okay. I I don't do you think they would come before us if uh sometime before the the court is going to uh make a decision. The court makes the decision on this. The court makes a decision on this. Do you know when that might happen or is it I think it's scheduled for October. Do you know Laura? October. I don't remember the date. Uh it's a couple weeks down. So it's not months away. No. Okay. Any other that update? That's a really

Yeah, that's very useful. Any other comments, concerns? Okay. Is there a motion to adjurnn at 8:12? Uh, Mr. Chair, I move we adjourn planning commission meeting at 8:12 p.m. moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Iikes to adjourn at 8:12. All in favor signify by saying I. Opposed. Motion carries. We're adjourned.