Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

that result or whatever. I didn't see one change or worse. Oh, it didn't do it. Well, I don't know. Maybe it would have could have. Oh, how would you change it? If it gets worse. Oh, yeah. Well, it didn't get worse.

Okay. Evening. Bye. [Music] All right. The Plymouth Township Planning Commission meeting will come to order at 6:30 if the secretary please call roll. Dennis Sabolski

here. Tim Boyd here. Bob Dorvitz here. Steuart Pop here. Dan Callahan here. Bill I here. Dave Lavik here. Full house. Thank you. Nice.

And u the approval for uh this evening's agenda. There's one modification and that is item number four. excuse me, the approval of the minutes of our study session. We were advised by the uh township clerk that the uh those minutes will appear on the website, but there is no need for us to approve those because we never take any action at those meetings. So, we won't be doing that uh tonight or in the future. So, with that modification, is there a motion to approve the agenda as u amended? I make a motion to approve the agenda for August 20th as amended. Okay. Supported.

Moved by Commissioner Pop and support by Commissioner U Boyd to approve the amended agenda. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. And the approval of the minutes of our regular meeting July 16th. Any uh I'm Yep. I make a motion to approve the minutes from July 16th. Right. Before we second, could I make one comment? Sure. On the minutes, right on on page two where you had the comments from the the public when on July 16th. Yeah. On July 16th, Dennis,

uh Ken Phillips specific concern was it took 3 minutes 52 seconds to make a lefthand turn onto Lily and it was at 8:35 a.m. Right. which was a a safety issue in his eyes. I I just saw this as as a higher than doing a traffic study. So, I at least wanted to capture his specific comment of 3 minutes 52 seconds to make a lefthand turn onto Lily cuz he's almost across the street and it was at 8:35 a.m. in the morning. Okay. All right. Other than that, I'm in perfect agreement. Okay. So is there you amend the motion to uh approve the minutes as uh amended?

Uh I make a motion to approve the minutes from July 16th as amended. Okay. Support. Okay. Moved by Commissioner Pop and supported by Commissioner Ladawick to approve the July 16th minutes as amended. All in favor signify by saying I. Opposed. Motion carries. is uh

Commissioner Spilski, I had a comment on the um Wednesday, August 6th meeting if these are going to be um posted on the website on page um it's actually the u page two at the very top the first sentence says making it clear that ADUs are not currently permitted period and then it says co observed. So, I that's supposed to be commissioner something.

Okay. I'm on the uh draft minutes for August 6th. Um it would be the third page in from that. The very first sentence starts making it clear. Okay. Uh after the period, it just says CO observed that younger families etc. So, I don't know who that is. That needs to be I'll look into my notes. Okay, good. Thank you. Appropriate changes. Thank you. Okay. All right. Thank you, Commissioner. I one other comment on the draft minutes, right? All four pages

back on the sixth. Yeah, back on the sixth. All four pages are listed as page two, right? Roller hand corner. That was it.

Okay. Anything else on minutes? Either of the two minutes. Okay. Okay. And this is the time for public comment for any non-aggenda items. So, if anyone is here to speak on a non-aggenda item, you'll have three minutes. And now's the time. Okay. We move on to public hearing application uh 2565 uh the reasonzoning to uh agricultural for 51,000 North Territorial and please read the report.

Okay. Thank you chairman Sabolski. Good evening commissioners. Laura Ha with McKenna. The application before you for 51 um00 North Territorial um road is a a map amendment. is a request to change the zoning district um of the township zoning map. Uh the property is currently zoned the R1E one family residential district and the applicant is requesting a zoning change to the AG the agricultural district. The subject site um as you can see on the first page of the report consists of just one single parcel um almost 10 acres in size um which is on the north side of North Territorial Road just east of Napier. Um so this is in the northwest corner of the township. The process for a um resoning request is that the planning commission hold a public hearing which is set for tonight. um and make a recommendation to the board of trustees. The board of trustees has the final approval in a resoning um and they would review this at a future date. The ordinance um provides for specific principles for evaluating a resoning request. Um I'll go through those six briefly. Uh the first is will the proposed resoning be in accordance with the basic intent and purpose of of the ordinance itself and the ordinances intent is to promote and protect the public health, safety and general welfare of the township. Um our findings are uh that the property already includes a single unit dwelling and that the owners wish to construct private stables on the property. In the agricultural district, private stables and other limited agricultural activities are permitted by right on

properties with 5 acres or more. Uh this parcel is almost twice the required size. A resoning to the agricultural district will allow the property owner to conduct um you know limited agricultural activities in the future. It's important to note that any resoning that moves forward will still require the applicant to secure um any permits from the building department um for accessory buildings or um fences um any any of anything anything of that nature. Um as the single family home will remain on the site uh the residential nature of the use will largely remain the same. Um and as we'll discuss later on in this report, the required dimensional standards of the agricultural district are met and exceeded uh for this parcel. Um so we find that the basic intent and purpose of the zoning ordinance can be met with this resoning request. Um the second criteria is will the um proposed map amendment resoning further the uh goals and um future land use map of the master plan. Um in review of the master plan uh we note that there are no properties um on the map that are designated as agricultural. Um however uh there is a category for residential low density which is the lowest density category that the future land use map prescribes and the subject site falls within that land use category. Um on page three of our report we detail the future land use designations for the surrounding sites um which also correspond with residential low density or low intermediate density. Um so while the future land use map does not have the specific agricultural district

um we do find that the residential low density um on the property um it meets the intent of that designation. Uh there's not an upzoning of this property for a more intensive use. Criteria three is um will the map amendment correct an equitable situation created by the zoning ordinance rather than merely grant special privileges. Um we find that the proposed map amendment will not grant any special privileges. Um, the applicant will still be required to submit any necessary um, permits and uh, plans for any accessory structures or fences on the property as would any other property owner. Criteria four, will the map amendment result in any lawful unlawful exclusionary zoning? No. Criteria five, is the propose proposed zoning consistent with the zoning classifications of the surrounding land? So again, you can look back to that table um at the start of u page three um which shows that the proposed zoning district agricultural um is consistent with the surrounding properties. Directly east of the subject site is another property that is zoned agricultural. There are also two properties um that are zoned agricultural to the north separated by one parcel. Um and moving more northwest and even outside the township um there are more agricultural uses. Um so we find that that is fitting. Criteria six, could all the requirements of the proposed agricultural district be complied with on the subject site? And we've highlighted that in the dimensional um chart there on page four. the schedule of regulations. Blue indicates the requirements for the

agricultural district. The yellow indicates the R1E which is the current zoning of the property. And the as I stated earlier, the property complies with these dimensional standards um and exceeds them um in some cases. So no variance is necessary by the applicant for this reasonzoning. On page five uh is our recommendation. Um again, this is a recommendation to the board of trustees for their final approval or denial. Um but it is our recommendation that the proposed resoning to the agricultural district. Um is recommended to the board of trustees and we've listed three findings of fact. Uh the first is that the property has characteristics which are consistent with nearby properties in the agricultural zoning district and still promotes the continuation of lowdensity character in this area. Uh the second is that the pro proposed agricultural uses would not alter the character of this area of the township in a way that is compatible with the goals of the master plan or the designation of the the low density for this area. And third, the site and the construction of any new accessory structures can comply with the dimensional requirements of the district um and would still require building permit um and building department review. The applicant is here this evening and if you have any questions on this I'm happy to answer them.

Okay. Thank you. Any applicant is here want to step up and did you have anything to to add to the planners report? [Music] Is your mic on? Sorry. Uh no. Oh, now it is great. Um sorry. We'd both like to thank Laura and Liz for all their help through this application. Thank you so much. Um, we're happy to answer any questions that you have. I don't know if there's anything specific or if you just want more information about plans.

Are you planning on uh I'm not sure, Laura. I guess it's for both. Are you planning on having a riding stable, have, you know, training or any of that? Or this is for your own private use?

Um, private use. So, we'd like to have a barn built so that we can have a couple of pasture pets. I'm a board-certified veterinary surgeon and a USDA accredited veterinarian. So, any animals we have on our property are purely to be pets. We don't intend to have a commercial farm. We don't intend and would not be distributing any animal products or food products to the community. Um, we just adore our property. We love all the wildlife that it brings. So, we'd love to continue being good stewards to our environment and taking care of the animals that share the space with us. questions from commissioners. Yeah, I had one question. Would would you ever want to grow anything on the 10 acres since you'll have plenty of land?

Um, we just have like a small garden for our personal use at home. All right. No quarter. Okay. Thank you. And and just to clarify, Laura, did we say this would be the only a zoning in the township? Is that accurate? There are other properties that are zoned agricultural today. Yes. Great. All right. No further questions. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Not from me. What about the rest of these guys? All right. Anyone else? I had one. Uh, we received a letter from Eileen Powell uh in support of your proposal. Is she the neighbor to next to your left? She's across the street to the southeast of us. Okay. Yeah. Did you uh discuss this with your neighbor to the west at all?

Yes. So, our neighbors to the west, Georgia and Sylvia Scapatici, and their niece Lorie Scapatici to the northwest of us are both very excited about this process. They're all big animal lovers and um we know there are restrictions for the township in terms of quantity and types of animals you have. We're not looking to be a nuisance and we would absolutely follow those guidelines, but they've all been very supportive. Great. Okay. Thank you. Are you going to have chickens? Um not sure. Not not at this time. We're not looking to do that. So, do you already own these horses or you're bringing it? We don't. Yeah, we don't currently have any large animals obviously, but other questions from this side?

Nothing. Okay. Well, we'll open the public hearing. Is there a motion to open the public hearing at 6:44? Mr. Chair, I move we open the public hearing at 6:44 p.m. Thank you. Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd, supported by Commissioner Pop, to open the public hearing at 6:44. Is there anyone here that wishes to speak to this application? Okay. Is there a motion to close the public hearing at 6:45? Mr. Chair, I I propose we close the public hearing at 6:45. And you have and Okay. And all in favor signify by saying I

opposed. Motion carries. And you did have the you referenced the one letter that um we received. Yes. Um so I don't think you need to do that since you reference it. Yeah, there's a letter from Okay. from Eileen.

All right. All right. Are we ready for a motion or are there any other questions? All right. Ready for a motion? I I had one one one thought. Right. Um it's clear veterinarian what what they want to do, but I always tend to think if they sell 10 20 30 years down the road, right? Are there any additional things on on a that they use the 10 acres for half or 51% of a is there anything or is just a generically written? This is more of a question to the planners here that that allows a barn and riding um planting a garden. What else could be done on the property the way our zoning ordinance rests or sits today for a use?

Pretty It's pretty much limited to those uses. Okay. All right. It could be a full-blown farm, right? In theory, 10 acres. Yes, it Yes, you could you could grow um products for sale in any agricultural property. I mean, just fine. have just saying you know and I love farmers so I wouldn't be offended by that if that's what were to happen but it's very clear the use that table they had I think was on page five right all I want to point out is when you look at there's 13 vertical attributes there 10 of the 13 are identical to Rwani for what egg does so this to me looks rock solid correct

so is there a motion Mr. chair. Um, referencing the application for 51000 North Territorial BC number 2565, I recommend that we recommend to the board of trustees for approval. Uh, citing the findings of fact included in the planners report. I'll second it. Okay. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Ike. Recommend approval of application 2565 to the board of trustees. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries. Congratulations. Good luck to you. Wish you the best.

Next is uh application 2566 uh on Hagerty Camp Mirage Special Land Use and Planner report.

Thank you, Chair Sabowski. Good evening, commissioners. Liz Hart with McKenna. Um, I'll be presenting a request for a special land use for a child care center at 14501 North Hagerty Road. The applicant, Cara Tro, proposes to operate Camp Mirage, a long-standing local summer program for children in the community that will occupy an existing 17,000 ft institutional building on a 2.77 acre site. Uh this site is the former home of the new morning school which is currently vacant and the property is zoned R1 one family residential where child care centers are permitted by a special land use approval. Some background on Camp Mirage. Uh Camp Mirage will primarily function as a summer day camp serving children ages 4 to 14. They have approximately 200 children attend their programs during the summer and it operates from mid June through late August, typically from 9:00 a.m. to noon with extended care available from 7:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Attendance is staggered, so arrival and departure times are spread out. And during the school year, Camp Mirage also offers child care on select days when local schools are closed, such as mid-inter breaks and professional development days. So staff conducted their review based on the six standards set in section 2.7 for the planning commission to consider and evaluating a special land use. And I'll go over these with you. Criteria one uh focuses on compatibility with surrounding development. So again, the existing building was previously occupied by New Morning School, which also operated under a special land use approval which was granted in 2002. And now the applicant seeks to repurpose the building as a child care center. Um

so the we staff did find that the proposed use is similar in character, scale and intensity to the previous educational use and will remain compatible with surrounding land uses. So again the sites uh zoned R1 one family residential which is also to the west and north of the property and south of the property. The land is uh zone public land which is also the uh Lake Point Soccer Park. And then across the street on Hagerty off of Hagerty is uh office service with the PUD. So our finding is that given the site's prior use, the limited hours of operation and moderate season intensity of the proposed program, uh the child care center is appropriate for this location and will not negatively impact the orderly development of adjacent properties. Consideration 1B, consistency of the use with the master plan. The master plan identifies this site as residential medium density. And the master plan encourages land uses that support families and provide services that benefit the community. The child care center and summer day camp are both family focused services that help meet the needs of the residents in the community. and staff finds that the proposed child care supports the master plan goals by providing a valuable service to families making use of an existing building and fits into the surrounding area in a way that supports a strong familyfriendly community. Consideration 1C, the impact of the use on natural features of the site and surrounding area. The applicant does not plan to make any changes to the existing building or site's exterior layout. The property already includes mature landscaping which the applicant plans to maintain and preserve. Um as a result the building footprint, open space and natural character of the site will remain unchanged ensuring compatibility

with the surrounding residential and public land uses. The finding staff found is the proposed use will have no impact on the natural features of the site. Consideration 1D, the intent of the zoning district in which the use is proposed to be located is kept. Uh again, the property is located in the R1 one family residential district which is primarily intended for lowdensity single unit homes. However, the zoning ordinance does allow community serving uses such as schools and child care facilities through the special land use process. Staff found that as the building and overall site layout will remain unchanged and as the use aligns with the community needs the proposed facility the proposed use is consistent with the intent of the district. Criteria two relates to the use is criteria two is the use is designed located and proposed to be operated so that the public health safety and welfare will be protected as the ex previous uh we find that it is still well suited to safely accommodate children both indoors and outdoors because the applicant's not planning to modify anything on site. So the finding is by continuing a similar use in a space designed for children, the proposed child care will protect the public health, safety and welfare of both participants and the surrounding community. Criteria three, the use will add you the use will be adequately served by public services and facilities. Uh since the site is already existing and is served by existing utilities, we do not expect the use to place additional demands on public services. and we find this to be met. Criteria four, the the vehicular circulation of the proposed use will be in the best interest of the public. Um again, the applicant's not making any changes to

the use. So the egress and ingress into the site remains unchanged. Um and the finding from staff is as pro the proposed use maintains the existing access points operates with staggered schedules and occurs during a time when nearby school traffic is reduced minimal impact on local traffic circulation is expected. Criteria five the location use and assembly of persons in connection with the proposed use will not be hazardous. Staff found that as the proposed use is seasonal, operates on a staggered schedule, and is located in an area already accustomed to similar traffic and activity levels, is not expected to conflict with the normal traffic flow or presented hazard to life, property, or the area. Criteria six uh requires the site layout to be in compliance with the general site development standards of article 29 site plan and development approval. Uh child daycare centers child care centers do have specific requirements found in section 28.4. The first use standard is that a fenced outdoor play area shall be provided and maintained with a total area equal to a minimum of 500 square feet per child. So the site right now is approximately 2.77 acres. That's about 55 or and there's approximately 55,500 square ft on the site specifically for outdoor play and activity. Now, the applicant New Morning School had a share use agreement with the township to use the Lake Point Soccer Park and the applicant is going to continue that shared use agreement. So, that adds 11.7 acres to the use to be available for outdoor

space. So, staff does find that this requirement is met with that. Um, use standard 2 is all care facilities shall be registered with or licensed with the state. The applicant has stated that they are registered with the state of Michigan through the Lara program. Uh, you standard number three, child care centers located in a residential district shall be located on the exterior of the district and shall not abut not and shall abut a non-residential zoning on at least one side of the lot. The site is within a residential district, but is on the edge of it. And to the south again is the public land zoning for the lake soccer the lake point soccer park. So it does meet this requirement and new standard number four adequate ingress egress and circulation shall be provided. Again the existing infrastructure on the site is not proposed to be changed and staff finds this to be in compliance with this standard. And new standard number five uh requires group daycare homes shall not exceed 16 hours of operation during 24-hour period and shall not uh operate during hours of 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m. The proposed child care center will is not proposed to exceed 16 hours of operation and the core programming hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon and the extended care from 7:30 to 5:30. This all shows that this uh requirement is compliant. Uh in standard number six, such f facilities shall be located at least 1,500 feet from other statelicicensed residential facilities. Um we find that this is this uses complies. The existing facility is located approximately 2500 ft south of the early childhood university located I believe southwest of the corner of Hagerty and 5 mile road.

So based on these findings, staff is recommending the planning commission grant special land use approval for the child care facility uh based on the nine facts of finding that I just went through with you. I'm happy to list them all out again for you if you would like. Um but that is my presentation for you. The applicant is here to take questions and I'm happy to take any as well. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. An applicant is here. Oh, do you want to step forward and

hi there? My name is Cara Trro and my husband Jason Trro and we'd like to thank of course Liz and Laura for helping also. This whole experience working with the township has been very pleasant. Very pleasant. Do you have anything that you wanted to add to what has been said or uh No, I don't believe so. Okay. Um before we open the public hearing, does the commission have any questions at this point? No.

So, I just have a question. So, there's the camp in the summer, then it's regular daycare all the other times, right? So, we only operate a summer camp and then we are open for the days that Plymouth Canton schools are closed. So, we're talking about like spring break, midwinter break, any professional development days that the teachers have, we open for child care for those parents so the kids aren't home alone. So, we would be open on those days. Um there's a handful of them. Uh maybe a few each month. Oh, and the rest you're just No one's at the it's just closed. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Mhm. Right. We'll use it as office space. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Anyone else down here?

Can't think of a better use for it. Right. No, unless another school. Yeah. But Okay. Well, we'll open. Did you have a question? I I did. Um I I noticed that uh page three of the second packet that was much thicker, which included the the purchase agreement, it said was subject to inspection. Did the inspection get completed? I believe so. Is that correct, Terry? Yes. Yes. And everything is to code and Okay. And and the second question is I bought and sold enough real estate properties to know there's 10% owners will take care and fix everything and make the sale go like this and there's the 90% that are

for whatever reason not as accountable, responsible. Was there anything else right that the previous owner said they'd like to do, they'd recommend? Because when I read criteria two, it says, "Hey, the existing was a previous school and it's well suited safety." I agree with 100% but what's written but I always like to verify in order to trust. Is there anything that the previous owner said they do differently or change to make it safer? No, they have not. Okay. All right. And the principal is here as well today. Principal of new morning.

Oh, good. Great. I the comments are overwhelming support and and I agree with Trustee Dorschet's comment. Right. So, that was I I have no further questions, but I want to make sure the rest of the committee has a chance to ask if anything's surfaced. All right. Well, you can have a seat and we I'll entertain a motion to open the public hearing at 7:01. Mr. Chair, I move we open the public hearing at 7:01 p.m. Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Pop to open the public meeting at 7:01. All in favor signify by saying I

I opposed. Motion carries. Is there anyone here that wishes to speak to this issue? Okay. State your name and uh sign in. Sure. Given three.

My name is Jim Morano. I'm the president of the Breen Ridge Homeowners Association which is adjacent to Camp Mirage site. First of all, we as a community we would welcome them. We welcome morning school. Um they were great neighbors and hopefully uh camp Mirage will be great neighbors as well. Just wanted to say we had have our fence which is between us. Um we have worked with the school previous where there were some problems with the fence. They were repaired, fixed, they maintained the property nicely and I just want to say as a community we're well in support of Camp Mirage. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks for coming in. Is there anyone else can just step up? Okay. All right. See no one else. So, is there a motion to close the public hearing at 7:02? Mr. Chair, I move we close the public hearing at 7:02 p.m. support. Second. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Pop to close the public hearing at 7:02. Any other concerns that the commission wishes to have addressed? If not, are we ready for a motion? Yep. Okay. You want to make that motion?

Oh, wait. Um, do you did we receive one letter? Yes, I did. We did receive one letter uh from Jennifer Miller and uh very very positive there as as well. Okay. All right. Um Okay, Mr. Sure. No, no. I think Stuart was going to make Okay, go ahead. Or did you have a question? No, no. All right. I would like to make a motion um uh to uh what vote on or No, we we we approve this special land uses with us.

All right. So, I make a motion to um approve the special land use for Camp Mirage uh child care center number 2566 as supported by the planners report. And supported by the planners report. Okay. Second. Move by Commissioner Pop and supported by Commissioner Boyd to uh approve application 2566 in accordance with the planners report. All in favor signify by saying I. Opposed? Motion carries. Well, congratulations. [Applause] Thank you all for attending. Yes.

Were really awesome, weren't they? So, so good, man. Something goes right. You know, you know what I mean? Yeah, we're getting there. I plan to get a lot of support. Yeah. Okay.

Oh, I was here for the Okay, now we move on to the audience out. Yeah. Did you say something? That cleared the audience out. A lot of people supporting which is great. M application um 2558 the um 13101 Hagerty Road conditional resoning. Um we have your report or your updates. Can you hear me? Okay. Or do you want me to go shut that door? Okay. Okay. Thank you, Laura. Thanks. Hang on. Sound projects. Yeah. You know, she'd be able to hear me. Thank you.

Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Laura.

Um All right. So, this application um is one that the commission has um considered before back at the June meeting. Um this application is a conditional resoning uh for the property at 13101 Hagerty Road. This is the northwest corner of uh Plymouth Road and Hagerty Road. It is uh 15 acres that is currently vacant and the uh applicant proposes to conditionally reszone the site from the current zoning which is C2 the general commercial district to the industrial um IND district. The applicant has requested that this item be tabled for up to six months. They would like to submit a revised application. Um they are not here this evening in attendance. Since the public hearing was noticed and the the sign um on the property um stated tonight's meeting, uh we still must open and close the public hearing just like we did at the June meeting. Um, I would recommend that we do that and then that there be a motion to uh table this application for up to 6 months and allow the applicant the opportunity to to resubmit. Um, we notified the adjacent um home homeowners uh with any contact information that we had from them and anyone who submitted public comment before. So, um they are aware that this application is not um no uh affirmative or um denial uh action will be taken tonight. Um that is just a recommendation to table and when we if we receive if the township receives an updated application, we will do another public hearing and it will be renoticed. Um I'm happy to answer any questions. I

know our report was included in the packet um which recommended denial at this time. And if there's any questions, I'm I'm happy to answer them. If there's questions for the applicant, I'm also happy to take those this evening and provide them in writing to the applicant um should they wish to resubmit. Okay. Well, appreciate you letting the uh public know about it so they're not wasting their time coming for kind of a nothing u approval or denial. Any questions on behalf of the commission at this point for Laura? Ju

just one. A number of the residents that came from the ravines when was previous on the agenda had expressed concern over heritage trees that were on the dividing line between the property, right? And you know the five things that got flagged, I'm glad to see they're flagged and the deferral makes sense. What I didn't see in there was any effort made to identify and try to protect and I don't know if they were within the existing 25 ft or the the now 75 ft buffer. I have no idea. But that would be really good since several residents spoke out in concern on that point, right? I'd like to see the the applicant take the time, make the effort since they got to do some clean up on five other things to to try to address that concern with whether it's a a picture, a sketch. It doesn't need to be a $1,000 $1,500 architectural thing, but just making the effort to know what's in there where so the plan that's submitted takes their concerns into account.

But there would be a tree survey, wouldn't there?

Correct. Yes. If this site, since this is a resoning, um there is no plan that's cemented for this site. So when they would have the actual site plan or special land use, they would need to provide that at that time. what they have shown on their conceptual drawing that's included in their packet. It's the last pull out page. Um they have noted their property line which is shown in orange um on the the western boundary and then uh to the west of that they show on the ravines property uh that's where the dense woodlands are located. So they're at this point the information that we have is that those denser woodlands are not located within their property but a a full tree survey would be required.

Yeah, Bill. So what we do is, you know, we're concentrating more on the use of this property when they're coming up here before us. Again, that's a site plan consideration. You know, it's hard to not have that kind of discussion uh particularly with the public as they like to know what's going to what's going to be there, how's it going to look kind of. They haven't probably have not invested a whole lot of time or effort in into it. But again, uh let's say it were reszoned to what they requested, they could turn around and sell that property and what we were told may never be see the light of day. some the new owner might have some completely different idea as long as it meets the reasoning whatever it is uh that it's placed on. So um we have to concentrate more on the um the use but site plan is an important consideration. It's sort of hard to separate the two but you just have to put it in the back of your mind. It could not it might not be what you think it is.

Thanks for that clarification. Uh, chair, commissioner, the the fact they started with the landscape buffer and the burm tells me they're trying to make a good faith effort. I'm just trying to make sure they they get past third base and slide safely in home, right? Um, you know, because this this proposal is better. And I and I read this, right, and it looked like they were potentially looking at changing the location of the docks so you wouldn't hear trucks back. Is that accurate? I just didn't see anything on what was submitted as showing a new location for it. And maybe I'm mistaken with that, but I just wanted to get clarification. You are correct, Commissioner. Uh they did not identify any location for docs with this recent submitt.

And I'm wondering is that something we can ask would they, you know, or is it just too early in the process? I think it's a little early in the process uh to get into that level of detail, but it certainly is something that uh should be brought up. Again, it's a site plan issue, but it could have a negative impact depending on the location of those docks. Yeah. And and I'm glad you bring that up because, you know, the previous proposal they had when we looked at this three months ago, it actually showed it on that backside, which is why I think the residents had voiced that concern. So, Yeah, I I I think from my perspective, um this is really a resoning request at this point

and I think what we really need to focus on is is it appropriate to change the zoning from commercial to industrial and that to me that's the overriding concern at this point. Um site plan issues would follow if we agree it should be resoneed. I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that it's the resoning. It's the key issue we have to think through is do we really want to change this uh zoning and if we do, do we want to change it to industrial?

And to that point, Commissioner Boyd, thanks for bringing that up. um their previous package, which probably had to be 90 pages long, went through the history where it was zoned as industrial from the beginning of time on probably the first master plan all the way up to 2004, which is why they spent a lot of time in here clarifying how what it was changed to had no merits. They've tried and but but to your point, right, I just want to make sure that, you know, it was industrial and and and thanks for bringing that up. The other thing I want to share is I actually went and did a a walkthrough on the property again and that that squatting tent is there still on the property. It's been flattened. There's a whole bunch of natty light cans on the property. So, somebody's still squatting in on this property in the trees unfortunately which

Well, maybe you should let know about that. It's already been reported, right? And it's been re-reported. So, uh, these residents were so concerned with safety that, uh, this will prevent that. It'll solve that problem.

Yeah, I I would have to agree with Commissioner Boyd. I I think this is more of a resoning question. It's like, do you want to, you know, have it an industrial zoning where I guess it's just a generic two-story building, right? which mean not everything will be rented out. It's they just build it and then it's open for rent or what did he say what they wanted to do? A as we understand it's a speculative build. That's what I So it could be it could be a combination of things. It could be manufacturing. It could be warehousing. It could be storage. It could be office. Um there's just no guarantee at this point of what that use would be.

Right. So going back to what you you know there is a lot of residential now coming in there like you were saying.

So do you want to take a piece of property that is kind of key there? You know it's on a corner and have it more retailish, you know, commercial. So some places where people can go to for things or you just want another generic building. I mean and there are a lot of industrial around there. So I I see what they're saying how it's mostly industrial but you know I could see where commercial would be more desirable. I I suppose

I I do want to caution um I read the applicant's um text in quite a bit of detail and there are some statements in there regarding the future land use in the that um don't correlate to the actual situation and so just so you know the future land use map on this has been commercial for quite some time now was not proposed to change to industrial in either the 2015 master plan update or the 2021 master plan draft that was never approved. So when you read it, just remember that the facts of the matter are the future land use is the gold standard and that map clearly calls us out is commercial, not industrial. Yeah, I did ask Laura to give us a presentation at the last study session about future length the maps and all of that, but two commissioners were gone. So, I'm going to ask Laura that perhaps at the next study session. It was a five minute or 10 minute conversation that I think would be good uh for the newer commissioners to uh understand make sure that and that we all understand the differences um between the different maps and the master plan because we're we're going to undertake uh we already started discussion of that. So everybody needs to have a clear understanding what these items are. So, is commercial generally retail? Does commercial mean a strip mall or it's

in the zoning? Yes, it a commercial could include a strip mall. It could include a a cafe. It could include the C2 would allow for an office use there. It would allow for a veterinarian's office like restaurant. Yeah. Any of those things. Yeah. So, more more consumerbased instead of an industrial. Yeah. No, but you um actually on page four and five of the planners report um she does get into some of the differences between commercial and industrial. Yeah. Which is helpful. Yeah. [Applause] Are we ready for a motion? Well, we have to open the public hearing.

That's right. Correct. Sorry. So, uh Mr. Chair, I move that we open the public hearing. 7:17 78 p.m. 7:18 Okay. And who supports? I'll support. Okay. Moved by Commissioner Po Boyd and supported by Commissioner Ladak to open the public hearing at 7:18. Uh all in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries. Anyone here wishes to speak. That would be all eyes one. Nothing to say. Nothing to say. Myself. Well, I thought maybe you fell asleep. Oh, no. Okay. All right. Can we I have one question. Sure.

Did the public know this was going to be tabled? She just said that she notified the people. Okay. Cuz I was going to say I would expect a room full, but Yes. Okay. Yes. The the HOA board and any other individuals that we had emails or contact information for were called or sent an email. Okay. Really appreciate that, Laura. Thank you very much. All right, Mr. Chair, I move we close the public hearing at 7:21 p.m. Okay. Who who's supported? Okay. Okay. Moved by Commissioner Boyd and supported by Commissioner Orlando to close the public hearing at 7:21. All in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Motion carries.

All right. So, moving on. Oh, we have to make a motion to to uh to postpone uh for six months which would be um see this is August, September, October, November, December, January, February up to February by the February planning commission meeting. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Is there Mr. Chair, I move we um postpone the application for up to 6 months, which would be to the February 2026 planning commission meeting.

Second move by Commissioner Boy and supported by Commissioner Pop to postpone, excuse me, application 2558 for up to 6 months, which would be the February 2026 um commission meeting. All in favor signify by saying I. Opposed? Motion carries. Okay. And we have the planners report. Yes. Actually, this was not included in the packet. This is an error since we have the meeting next week. Okay. It will be on that one instead. But if there's any questions about current projects, I'm happy to answer them. Okay. Um I think there was a question at the last meeting perhaps about the residential structures at the

excuse me, St. John's resort facility and those are fully constructed and occupied. Okay. Um I had a ongoing question about the uh a Sarapun site um per uh Dave's comment. Uh it is has a big sign too big sign to say open for business and the facility is in a quite a state of disarray. Um, has there been any update um from last night? Sarah, no. Sarafon, the auto place on Northville Roads from Independence Village, just south of M14. Yeah.

East side. Um, we've we've shared some um complaints to code enforcement just last week. Um, so I I believe they're on it. Um the applicant does have until later in September to resubmit that. That's the end of their um site plan window. What was the date again? I I believe it's September 20th. September 20th. Okay. Yeah.

Before we get into commissioner comments, um Laura, did you have anything to say about the master plan discussion? Well, I know we've been talking a lot about the future land use map and for the next meeting I will run through that presentation quickly um to distinguish between the existing land use, the zoning and the future land use map. Um we do have a internal working list of properties that um we really need to closely take a look at as far as what their future land use is going to be in this update. Um, and I'm hoping that we can share that uh list. It's 20ome properties um by the end of this week. And that would give the commissioners an opportunity to maybe this weekend or early next week drive by some of the sites, get a feel, start thinking about what might be the best fit there. I do think at the meeting next week, um, Chevy this morning requested that they be postponed until October. they have some additional uh revisions that they need to make. So that is off the agenda. So we'll have a little bit of a smaller agenda now. So I think we can realistically um discuss some of those future land use uh properties

and we're still scheduled for our study session. It would be the 3rd of September, I believe. That one is not on the calendar yet. Oh, okay. Um, so if the commission would like to schedule that or look at another date in September, that is an option. We can also think about that and make a determination next week. Will everyone be at the meeting next week? What uh what do we have on uh study session? No. Uh, next Wednesday, the 27th, is a regular meeting. An additional special regular meeting

with applicant business. Oh, we split it up because we thought it'd be I remember, you know, but it turns out there's not going to be much next week either or what? There will still be a couple applications um similar to tonight. We tried to equally divide tonight and next week. Um, so with Chevy coming off, it's one less for us to discuss. So I think we'll have some extra time. Like today, you know, the applicant requested the Yeah. tableabling, so we ended up with more time than what we had planned for. Yeah.

Go on. Just to add to Laura's comments, um at our last meeting of the three three of us, Dave, um Dennis, myself, and Laura, we went through the 20some sites, and we think there's about 16 of those that um are pretty obvious what the right answer is. Um there are 11 of those that um where the answer is not obvious and we're going to need to discuss those in detail as the planning commission and come up with a consensus recommendation. So I would anticipate that the majority of our discussion will be on those uh open ones um which again are about 11 sites. The others obviously we want you to look at it um if you agree fine. If you don't agree, that's fine, too. But we think those are a little bit more obvious and we need to really focus our time on the open issues that um you know, really we need to have a big impact on the township going forward.

Is there a list of those? That's what Okay. And that's what she's going to Yeah, I should probably drive by them all and look at them. When was that list sent out? No, it's going to be sent out. Oh, okay. She she's gathering the notes when we met last week. Okay. You know, processing it and then she'll send those out so that everyone will have an opportunity to drive by, look at it, and then meet as a group to, you know, talk about, you know, chew it open and see what you think.

Okay. If if Kendra were still here, she would emphasize that the future land use map and the um decisions that are made on that is the the key action item that comes out of the entire master plan. And so if she were here, she would say we really need to put a lot of focus on this. Yeah, there's not much land left. So we have to make the right decisions. Uh, and our recommendation to the to the board.

Um, I have a question, too. There's a church right down the street from me, Praise Baptist Church, and they're letting I mean, I think they own a house there, and they're letting all the vines grow and everything. I don't know if I mean, I'm not one to throw stones, but um I don't know if that's I don't know if that should be allowed or anything. You mean is wrong or you are you concerned about the condition? Yeah, just they're just letting all the vines grow all over the house. So, it's not you know the house, right? Oh, I know. Well, I walked by. I mean I mean it's not horrendous, but I I don't know if that should be cleaned up. I I don't know if we have a you know

there is an ordinance. Dan Atkins will know. He's our enforcement guy. He's parttime. He's very thorough. I mean, it's just it would take them an hour to just make it look a little better. That's all. You just got to pull the vines down. But I don't know what they're going to do. I mean, maybe they're just going to sell that whole thing. Are they Do they have services there? No. Uh, no. No. It was a residential and it was staked. So, someone went had it surveyed. No, no, no. The the church I thought has one service a week, 10:30 I think. Yeah. The church is that it's called a question. The church does the north side of Yeah. Praise Baptist. Right next to one of the

Plymouth subs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they own I think they own both homes plus the church. Um I think the former pastor was our state rapper. Yeah. Jeff Noble. Yeah, that's it. Oh, yeah. Mhm. I don't know. I think that whole piece of land is worth Is it closed now or? No, it's still there. I I I just don't think it's I don't think there's many parishioners, you know. Yeah. Well, there is a a yard maintenance ordinance in the township. So, maybe you should just um ask the building department to take a look at it. I can.

I can. I was just curious if anyone's heard anything or but No. Okay. Okay. Anything else, Laura, on the master plan? Oh, no. Thank you. All right. Yes. I had one suggestion. I like the fact we're going to share it. Great. Thank you. Right. When it gets sent out, can we designate the 11 non-obvious ones? Right. Because I'll go to all 26 or 27 what the number is. Right. Yes. Spend time and maybe I'll spend additional time at those 11 since there's a hung jury, right? And uh for the three guys that volunteered their time, there's a lot of time that went in it. So, thank you for doing it. You saved Laura will others recommend

those and and the the planning department as well, right? Because it's just you guys put a lot of time into it. And if you're 16, 27th or whatever the number is, you know, Meatlo said two out of three ain't bad and you're just about there. So, that's really good. So once again, the assignment is to uh review the 27 sites and form an opinion as to what should be uh the future land use for those sites.

I think really on the the ones that are open, I think it's just it's a discussion that we need to have, you know, and get everybody's point of view. I mean Laura will highlight what the issues are or what the you know what what we need to consider but on on those the the open ones it's really important we get everybody to weigh in with their perspective. Okay. Yeah. Just particularly the the 11 that is sort of big question most you know and then some justification why it should remain the way it is or why should it be changed to something else.

Okay. to to be specific when it gets sent out whether you shade it yellow or or flag it with an asterisk on those 11 sites just please make it obvious to us looking at so we can view it from all angles. Yeah, that's awesome. So are we going to go through all 27 sites next Wednesday then? you will have the information for all those sites, but I think we really only need to discuss those 11 unless someone, you know, feel strongly that a different one of the other sites needs to be discussed. Okay. Okay. It might take more than

Yeah, I know. I mean, that's that's a lot when you're already doing other stuff. I don't know. Need to get started. No, no, no. I mean, but it what I'm saying is it could bleed to another meeting. I think it's very likely. All right. All right. Fine. As long as we don't have to finish everything by next Wednesday. Yeah. Okay. No. Cuz that's a lot. No. No. And we can't rush through it either. We have to we have to make good solid progress, but we're not going to just superficially look at it and say, "Okay." No. You know, there are no good decisions after 10 p.m. [Laughter] Yeah, that's Do we meet at noon?

Wow, good shot there. All right, anything else on the master plan? All right, commissioner comments.

I had one um the Ridge 5 office park where the uh racetrack was going to be this week. They've pulled down the barriers. Uh they were in there. They are going to be using it for general parking for the live tournament. And what really I was really encouraged to see is on most of the sites they've actually put up a site a sign indicating the site uh indicating what it could be used for. And in several of them it's suggesting that um they are planning buildings that would be leased out that could potentially be available as early as this time next year. So it's obvious big progress and speculative at this point but still big progress there. Very happy to see it

for for the whole thing or just a ridge road or eight sites in total. Yeah. How many is it nine? Eight or nine? Eight nine at least. I think about three of them have signs that suggest I mean all the way to the end to to Napier. Okay. Well, no, not to Napier. to ridge to to it's from Ridge and that creek, Johnson's Creek. Okay. So, anyway, good progress there.

Yes, the the developer for that site has come in and met with the township um departments and they are looking to start with three different sites within the Ridge 5 park um and have some conceptual drawings already for that. So, yes, promising. Great. Other comments?

I I I know this doesn't have anything to do with us, but we we all do uh represent the township and I think, you know, I was hoping Chuck would be here tonight, but you know, Northell Road is going to be used as I believe a bus route because we're there we already have about 30 buses a day going down Northell Road. So they're I think it's I think they might be in training right now or they're moving the volunteers but or they're taking people from the hotels and bringing them down.

I think it's very imperative that we clean up that uh uh body shop or m you know whatever cuz it looks like a hell hole. And if the people that are coming to live, do you do you understand that they're high income and they're going to look at that and go, why why would we even want to live here? So I somehow we need to get that to Chuck. I think that you know and I don't have the time to do that. You mean that that that twocar garage place that's like an Yeah. Yeah. Right now. Yeah. I drove down there today. I I know what you mean.

So Yep. And I once again I'll reiterate I appreciate the time that Dennis and Tim and Laura put into this uh project and um I've learned a lot working with these two gentlemen and of course Laura and look forward to wrapping up sometime in the future. Want to get it done. It's been delayed quite a bit.

Any other comments? Yeah, mine was was was a question right on 2556 with the the site PUD right the guys that came in here on saving that 58 in or 50 plus inch diameter breast height tree which was awesome 402 it's right on the property line did we get to root cause well did you find out anything more on that Laura

yes so tree 402 was was in the rightway and it was on the Virginia tile site So, they didn't really have the authority in that meeting to claim that they could save it. It's not part of the Plymouth Flex project. They are attempting to save tree 403. Um, but that property is not legally on their on their site and it was in the rightway of Virginia Tile. It wasn't identified on their site plan or was it? I don't have that. It was I think that they hastily agreed to it before us that evening. It was on the Virginia tile site plan

on the Oh, okay. That that was my question. But it also appeared on the flex site plan too because they have a shared Oh, the shared driveway. Oh, yeah. Oh, so that's potentially that was a 200 year old tree, right? Right. Absolutely.

So Beg's asking the question if we understand root cause and it looks like it's right on the property line and it is in the rightway to your point Laura right what what can we do to prevent recurrence right you know number one and number two whoever's cutting on a containment standpoint it'd be nice to see somebody have a conversation with them you know just so they understand that you know this was a a sad loss right for a tree that earned its keep here you know converting our CO2 into oxygen we believe for 200 years unfortunately But what would be your suggestion?

You know, I thought about uh do you put caution tape on the trees? Do you put a little triangle, a little fence around it? Right? Because equipment can bang into a tree to your email point where somebody scarfed another one. Okay? So, not only lose one, another one's been damaged. It's a heritage tree. You've got to have some kind of barrier, right? They have plastic barriers. They got foam barriers, but you need something that's more than two, three feet away to serve as a barrier so you hit it. And you you have a tactile feeler noise. I just I don't know what the right answer is, right? Cuz I haven't been in a tree saving position, but I'm sure we have enough experts and arborists that probably have done this in other communities, right? That could share lessons, learn, and best practices. So, we revise our tree ordinance and we put some teeth into it and it's reflected in the new master plan.

We would have to recommend a revised tree ordinance. And and to your point about some kind of barrier or whatever it takes, that probably should be part of an approval when when we say save this tree or group of trees that they'd be and we require them to put some kind of snow fence or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean in reality that's we have to do that as contractors, right? And uh we I don't do big projects like that, but even smaller projects that we're doing a mass amount of traffic through that property. We have to put the barrier and it's not really a barrier. It is a snow fence that you know falls down 10 times during a project. But um that is up to the contractor to do that. But, you know, you know, that would be mean that someone from the township has to be assigned that, which would be probably Dan Akens and, you know, and he works part-time and

we don't want to spend any more money in this township. So, we're sort of running up a a a brick wall, you know, into a brick wall. Well, we to to answer your question partially um the Plymouth walk uh sub you know proposal was also became very contentious regarding trees and when they actually started the process of cutting down the trees and I believe it was would have been the fourth quarter of 2023. They went out. There was a little tag on every tree that referenced the number in the tree survey. And Maryannne McAffee and I, Maryanne's the head of the environmental leadership commission. We actually went out on a Saturday and did a spot check. You know, there were way too many trees to check all of them, but we spot checked some of the biggest trees and they had erected a fence around those probably 10 maybe 10 15 feet off of the center

of the of the dur ring. Yeah, exactly. And um the idea of course is that the heavy equipment stays away from that because it damages the roots and the trees that are still on that site, they've already been over it. You know, you can already see the soil.

So, um I don't know if that was part of the specifications that the developer provided us when the project was approved or if it was the building department's requirement that they do this. But that was the process that was used there. And as you can see from the the results, we've actually been able to save some of those trees. So that should have been followed in my view on both the Virginia tile and the flex site. The same process. I don't know why it wasn't.

It would be good if we could drill down with with both entities to find out, right? Number one, and ask them for what they've seen because they know what to do and what not to do, right? So we can learn, right? And I'm sure other townships have best practice they put in place. It's just I'm not knowledgeable. I don't think any of the seven of us up here are experts in this area. You know, Laura, if that was if that's standard township practice with the fences or if that was something unique to Plymouth Walk. No, I believe the the fencing around the tree usually you do it around the drip line um because that corresponds to the root structure. Um, that's typical the silt fencing around the drip line.

Yeah, there's a lot I think there's room for a lot of miscommunication between what's on the plan and the contractor that's out in the field. And sometimes there's a lastm minute uh kind of thing. You know, they didn't realize, oh, we have to put this uh water man in and this trees in the way and they want to hurry up and get the job done. And I mean, I think try as we might and we should try as close as we can, I think there's always going to be some slippage in that, but we really have to button down at the site plan uh stage.

Yeah. and and as part of the master plan update, we probably need to make a recommendation to the board of trustees about coming up with some kind of penalty for uh developers that don't follow the site plan that they provided us on trees. Yeah. And Bob, I don't know if you recall, but you raised that issue some few years back about what's the incentive. We had a discussion about penalty and there isn't much of an incentive for a a developer to take down the trees. the penalty is not uh strict enough, right? But they can plant smaller trees that add up to one that

there it's in the ordinance. It's if you read through it, it there's a formula. You could make it a misdemeanor, but do you want to make it a criminal offense? No. Well, I don't think so. Just put a monetary thing, I guess. I don't Yeah, I'm not suggesting uh no, you know, 5 to 10 literally was at Alice's restaurant.

In all due seriousness, because it was in a rightaway, right, maybe we have to have clearer language that rightaway trees, right, are are looked at, right, differently and they could have routed it around inland to gone around it. that there's probably two or three different solutions they could have come up with other than just cutting it down and then they dug up the root structure and all the evidence was gone. That's why I took the photograph back after the May meeting, right? I sent it to and shared it and I went to my dismay, but it looks like they may have saved other trees. Just be nice if they could do better than what they're already doing at Virginia Tile if they were at fault for the root cause here. And I always want to put prevent recurrence in place as an engineer to make sure it doesn't happen again. Right. And and the loophole here is it's in a rightaway.

Well, it increases our sensitivity again, you know, to a greater degree than the sensit sensitivity that I think we currently have from all of us. Yeah. And the residents clearly in the surveys, you know, I was like 40ome percent took the time to say that was extremely important, right? And and it is. So, just to close the loop on the one that I had raised earlier, which was the um town homes on the St. John's site, did Ken verify that they had properly done that? Uh yeah, the they have saved us some additional trees actually on that site. They've been able to preserve a couple more. Good. Thank you. So,

other comments or questions? I have a question on condos since that's seems like all builders want to do is condos. Now, do we have because it seems like there's always short of parking places there. There is an ordinance you need so many extra spaces per unit and stuff. We have that in the um for parking. Yeah, there is a uh well if it's a single unit dwelling. No, no, the condos like the condos as in the the Plymouth walk the attached town as an example. Yeah.

Okay. Um yes, there is a standard for those and um there's a a guest parking for multifamily. Single family dwellings can be condos though, too. That's just an ownership model. All right. cuz you guys live in kind I mean we do there's never enough parking right

we have nine extra parking spots you could squeeze 10 if you wanted to and there's only 25 buildings in there and those spots are usually three at a minimum and when someone has a book club or it's a holiday they're jammed and what worries me is is I look at how do we do things better right at the end of the day and I I come back to the Plymouth uh farms right where they didn't when I marked the drawing up I don't know what they're going to do but man oh man I know people that will They'll be kicking themselves if there's no extra float parking because they definitely had the room on the entrance road next to that end condo because they're putting ashfeld in there anyway to go back to retention pond.

Just put it there. Give them something. They could have put it in the back, right? It's just they need it. And wordly enough, having lived in condos and knowing you need it and not everybody has a wide parking garage or a street that's wide enough cuz garbage trucks roll there and vehicles will get hit. That's why that spillover parking is so important for college kids. Oh, it's very important. Families have moved back home. I mean, it's it's it's crazy. You need it. Like on St. John, I I can't believe they're putting 72 units in there. Okay. I mean, are there going to be extra spots to park? There are. Okay.

It's not only the parking, you know, the overflow parking, but it's where did they put the snow? I raised that issue up with this uh Big B Coffee. Uh you know, when we get snow, it's going to be hard to find a place to put it. They were going to put it in the the parking, the limited parking that they have there because they're primarily going to uh it's just a drive-thru, but there are a few tables and chairs in there. It hasn't snowed around here in years. This is true. Yeah, true. You have a short memory. Short for good. Snowblower four times total in the last three years. Yeah. Some Yeah, it's like once a year. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Anything else? Is there a motion to adjourn at 7:47? Mr. Chair, I move we adjourn at 7:47 p.m. Second. Moved by Commissioner Boy, supported by Commissioner Lick to adjourn at 7:47. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. Motion carries. Ajourned.