City Council - workshop

Right on time. We'd like to welcome everyone out to our Pleasant Grove City Council work session meeting today, Tuesday, August 18th, 2026. We'd like to welcome all sitting council members up here with me. I'm Mayor Jensen. We'd like to welcome all those who are in attendance with us tonight and those who are joining us online. We'll go ahead and get started. We do have one item that's not on the work session thing. We're going to hear from our wonderful Miss Pleasant Grove team, Josie Hereford. If we could have...

her come up and then we'll follow that we'll move on to our adaptive share program and have our director megan zollinger follow welcome hello thank you for having me um like mayor jensen said my name is josie and i'm miss pleasant grove's team and i'm so excited to be here my community service initiative is called the self-love project which encourages self-acceptance body positivity and confidence I believe that it is a process to change the way you feel about yourself and to change the way you treat other people because we fall into habits often that it makes it harder for you to be confident, especially in the world today. I believe that every person can flourish into their own self and be proud of who they are. But as I've been able to serve the community, I've seen the struggle in the teens and I've seen the struggle with comparison and with all these other things. And it's been so hard for me. So I'm so excited that I'm going to have a garden in front of the library. That's going to be a reminder that self-love grows and that you need time to become who you want to be and to be proud of the person you already are. and I'm so grateful that I've been able to serve Pleasant Grove City this far, and if you guys ever stop by and you can see how pretty it is, just remember how amazing you are inside, and that as you're becoming your best, everyone else is too. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, thank you. Does Councilor, you have any questions for Josie? No, she's great. Yeah, she's been working with mostly Dionne and myself, but she has a wonderful thing that's gonna happen here. When is the final?

I plant on the 25th, so one week from today.

We're good to go, right, Dion? We're good? Okay, there we go.

And will there be like a plaque or anything that kind of explains? Yes. Okay, good. That's awesome. And I think I'll take the children in the springtime, and we'll do some little steak things with self-love quotes inside of the garden, which will be fun.

Josie, we want to get a picture with you. Is that okay?

That's totally okay.

That is going to be up to Josie, or she could hand it off to someone, but yeah.

Yes, I'd love to come back and make it a big thing and kind of talk a little bit more about my CSI because I think as much as I can do in one year, the problem will obviously still be there. So it'd be awesome.

All right, Director Zoellinger, Beggin. I think you have some wonderful people here, correct? Okay.

I'm actually not gonna do really any of the talking. I'm gonna leave it up to the experts here with us today. We've got some special guests with us today.

So come on up here. You wanna come up here right here, Sadie? Come stand up here. Come stand up here close to us.

You wanna run the computer? I don't know where she is. She's grabbing her glasses. Yeah, I'll grab those glasses. Okay.

I'm going first. You can just. I'm sorry. You can do. You'll just kind of do this sort of thing.

Okay.

Perfect. Thank you. Well, thank you for letting us come and talk to you today. We just wanted to kind of just do a brief and simple introduction to our program that we've started this year and kind of tell you, like, thank you for your support as PG and PG Rec. So we are here as a collaborative group between PG Rec Center, United Angels Foundation, and Sarah Arts Education. I actually work for United Angels. I am the program director, but these are all the people behind the program that we did this summer. We were able to do a summer program this year that were two sessions of five weeks. We were able to serve 27 kids. So I want to show you who this is adaptive programming for adults. So who are we supporting? These are people, adults, most of them 22 and older that have physical and mental disabilities. They're people who have graduated school, who have little to no work hours each week and need a place to be. All the people here are low support people, they don't need very much support but they don't have the skills to be able to live independently or out in the community and so therefore there are little, not a lot of options for them to be able to participate in. So why? This is, Excuse me if I'm rushing through this, but I want to make sure we have enough time for everyone. At the age of 22, post-secondary schooling ends for our kids. Sarah here, she just graduated in May, and so she doesn't have anywhere to go. She's gone from six to seven hours a day at school to pretty much nothing. I said, oh shoot, now I'm going to be the cruise director for her. I'm going to spend every day trying to keep her involved. and learning and basically present because what she would wanna do is sit in her room all day long and listen to music. But who wouldn't, right? We just wanna make sure that she doesn't sit there. So post-secondary schooling ends. We do a great job in Utah supporting our people with special needs. We have great, school programs and they prepare them to be out in the world and out in the community and then all of a sudden at 22 most of them are left without anything. Voc rehab is one of their options to do and that is a program that will help teach them job skills and help them find a job and have a job coach. Unfortunately voc rehab right now has such a long wait list and they've stopped taking And also, we don't have enough places to place everyone. We don't have enough employment opportunities for our kids. Family income and community supports are limited. I'm sorry. Each kid gets SSI payment for $736 unless they turn in a rental agreement and they go up to $994. So that will take them each month at the age 18, they will get some support. But most of our families are either one member, one parent, supporting them or two family members are working because of the cost of living and the cost of taking care. They're not expecting to be able to have to take care of a child for the rest of their lives. Even if they have expected, they've planned for it, it's very difficult in the economy that we have right now. So state waivers are another option that we have. Unfortunately, the state waivers that we have right now, they're Medicaid funded, 66% funded by the federal government, 33% funded by the state. We have a wait list between five to 20 years. Most of these kids will not be pulled off the wait list because they are such low supports. They're taking people that have really high needs. In the last four years, well I'll tell you five years ago, the head of the Health and Human Services Committee didn't even know we had a state waiver wait list. Now we've been able to take 250 people off the list for the last three years and last year was only 100 people. We get over 250 people apply every single month. So these people are not able to go to have respite money or supported living money. In our state, we do have a lot of good day programs, but self-pay day program is about $150 a day. So that is almost impossible on an under $1,000 budget to be able to attend. And what we find is that our kids, as they get out of school, face really high rates of regression, mental illness, and health issues. They really struggle with not being able to have that interaction and being out in the community. Okay, so what is it? It's SHARE, SHARE, Specialized Higher Adaptive Recreation and Education. And our mission statement is to empower adults with special needs through adaptive education and recreation classes and workshops that highlight individual strengths, foster creativity, builds life skills, and nurtures independence, community connection, and purpose. The name SHARE does stand for Specialized Higher Adaptive Recreation Education, but it also stands for we need community partners to share their resources with us, and we will share our kids with you. And you benefit from it. And I know that Megan was telling us what a blessing it has been to have us there this year, even though we're We're dropping around all over the place, but they enjoy us. And it's good to have people with the smiles and the questions. And honestly, one in four people in the state of Utah have some type of disability. So if you don't already have someone in your family that has a disability, you know someone in your community that has a disability. So how do we do this? This summer, we did our pilot program. We had two days a week for three hours. We were very structured. We want it to be highly academic. We want them to learn and question about the world and be excited about new skills and find out what they want to do so that maybe they can start their own business or maybe they will be able to donate their time in the community. So we work through, Sarah does the arts, theaters, music, visual arts and dance. We do high academics. We're working on literacy and financial independence. We do independence and leadership. Confidence is amazing what they've been doing through this whole time. Community engagement, life skills, recreation, healthy living. communication skills and entrepreneurship and vocational skills. One of the main things that we want to do every single day and why we approached PGREC about this program. So we want to get our kids moving. We know if they're moving every day then their mind is healthy and their mental health is stronger. So I am going to Turn the time over to two of our share participants today and they just just to tell you and to brag about they both wrote their own presentation for you so we'll go ahead and start with Tyler.

hi I am Tyler scarred share has been fun this summer for physical fitness I got to do zumba and dancing with friends, I thought it was cool to learn our names in sign language. Then for cooking, we made soft pretzels and learned about food safety. In science, I liked the seed race. The sunflower was the winner. I had so much fun forward to this summer. I felt like I had never got bored. For all those who have a disability, you're not alone. Can you show us your name in sign language? T-Y-L-L-E and then R. Good job. And now we have Sarah Teague.

Okay.

Hi, my name is Sarah Teague. I'm 22. I live in Surrey Hills, Utah. I'm the last daughter of my family, and I'm the oldest. I've been to Surrey in the summer, and I'm going back to Surrey again this fall. I used to go to A-Tech for three years, and now I'm done. I graduated in May. I have Down syndrome. I'm just perfect. I have grandfathers who raised me for love, and what I like about Sarah is dancing and musical theater, and cooking, fitness, science, love skills, and other stuff we do for Sarah. Sarah is good for me, my friends, and everyone.

Oh, absolutely.

And Lacey Knight. Hi, I'm Lacey, and I love being Sarah, and I love being friends with Sadie. And I'd love to make bracelets, Sadie.

Thank you.

The friendships, the confidence, all of these things that have, and I forgot to mention, and I'm sorry, I'm glad that Sarah did, is that we are gonna continue in the fall. Okay, and then now I'm gonna give the time over to Alicia, who is also a PG Rec person. She's gonna share some few things with you.

Hey, like Carrie said, I am the adaptive coordinator at the Rec Center, Having SHARE at the rec center, I think Megan mentioned too, has just been so fun. You walk out at lunchtime, everybody's sitting, you may see, okay, is it down here? They sit out at the tables to have lunch, they're all talking with each other, but it just makes anybody who comes in smile. These students are the best. So I have just a couple things to share from parents of these students, just their experience with the SHARE program and how grateful they are for it. So this is a letter from one mom, she says, Dear SHARE program team, I wanted to take a moment to share how much the SHARE program has meant to our family this summer. Our daughter Simone participated in the program, and it has been such a wonderful experience for her. She has had the opportunity to be social, have fun, try new things, and genuinely feel engaged and included. Seeing her enjoy herself and build connections has meant so much to us as her family. Programs like SHARE are incredibly important, but many programs serving adults with disabilities are significantly more expensive, making it difficult for families to participate. SHARE provides such a meaningful experience while remaining affordable, and that makes a tremendous difference. The leaders of the program are truly exceptional. Their dedication, compassion, and genuine engagement with the participants are evident in everything they do. It's clear that they genuinely care about the individuals they serve and about creating a welcoming community. Thank you to everyone who makes SHARE possible. What you are providing goes far beyond a summer program. It creates connection, belonging, and opportunities for people who deserve all of those things. We are incredibly grateful that Simone was able to be a part of it. With gratitude, Chelsea Anderson." So that was just one mom. And then another mom says, our son looks forward to Cher and comes home extremely happy. We as parents are thrilled to have a safe place for him to engage with others continue learning and growing, and have fun. SHARE provides organized, prepared, creative lessons and a variety of meaningful experiences. We are so grateful for this program and the opportunities that we haven't been able to provide ourselves. Lisa Preece." But any parent you talk to will have very similar things to say. And I think as the recreation department, we're just very grateful to accommodate, to be able to, all we do is share a room with them and they share so much more with us. So we're so grateful to have them.

Thank you.

Thank you, okay, and then I would like to just introduce our executive director from United Angels Sylvia.

Thank you so much this summer this opportunity to partner with pleasant grove and to work with the city. To work with your amazing staff to be in a beautiful facility walk out every day and feel good to be there when our students walk in they feel value. they feel worth because they're in this beautiful place with great high quality programs and people that care about them. Thank you so much for the opportunity. This happened really fast. I mean, we came up with the idea, Pleasant Grove Recreation said let's do it and we moved very quickly. So we know that there's still room to make changes and to modify and to build the program. We look forward to building it with you. But when we were putting this together, started doing research and we looked far and wide, not only in Utah, but outside of Utah to see how do other cities do this? How do other cities, community centers, recreation departments, how do they do an adaptive day program for adults with special needs? We didn't find a lot. It was really disheartening. What we did find a lot of that was really exciting was a lot of great senior programs. And Pleasant Grove City has great senior programs, too. And we said, there's so many senior programs, and there's not a lot of programs for adults with special needs. And we started thinking about that. We said, these two populations are very, very similar. maybe a little underserved, sometimes forgotten about, and sometimes underappreciated in their communities. We talk about seeing everybody out, and I think that representation and that visual seeing people, these are people in our communities. And the seniors and our adults with special needs face similar challenges. limited income, sometimes limited transportation, sometimes being a little vulnerable. When they are out in the community, we hear about scams and fraud and all of these things, and there's a lot of the same risks. Skill regression, mental health challenges, depression, all stemming from that social isolation. and so we really we really look towards how pleasant grove and the recreation department and sarah theater and all of these wonderful families how we can continue to work together to find a way to help serve this population of adults with special needs that are so valuable to the community and so much a part of the community and so we just thank you and we really look forward to continuing working with you and serving more of these great families thank you appreciate it

Megan, do we want to get a picture? Yeah, let's have them come up. You guys do want to come all stand right up here?

Yes, come join us. Come on.

You're part of the team.

Yeah. Good job, buddy.

You're welcome.

All right, Scott, are you going to lead the next discussion on our Pickleball Courts at Discovery Park? Thank you.

I will say, I don't know, three years ago, Adaptive wasn't even on our radar. And now, I think as a city, we're one of the leaders in this in the state. And grateful for Megan and her team and those that are involved that have put this all together because there is a community benefit there that, well, even beyond our borders at Pleasant Grove City, it's awesome. Okay, as you're aware, we have two tennis courts and six pickleball courts at Discovery Park, recently constructed as of about three years ago, that have had some issues, mainly some cracks that are of what we would call, what we think is substantial size. that have caused us concern and we have been in discussion slash negotiation with the the contractor the general contractor based on the warranty of the product that was installed The general contractor had used a subcontractor. The subcontractor is, to our understanding, is currently out of business. To the credit of the general contractor, we've met with them numerous times to try to figure out a solution on what we could do with these courts. So there's two options really for the city council to consider. One option would be to just replace the two tennis courts and the six pickleball courts and have them taken out and replaced and hopefully done in a manner that we won't have future issues. The other option is for us to take the two tennis courts that would be replaced and transition those into six more pickleball courts. If we did that, we would then have 12 pickleball courts out at Discovery Park and two tennis courts out at Discovery. We currently, as you're aware, we have eight pickleball courts at Veterans Park, and then we have land set aside for a potential, if a future city council wants to, that we could probably expand and put another eight pickleball courts there if we ever chose to do that. So what's on the table right now is if we are going to consider transitioning those two tennis courts into pickleball courts, then there will be an additional cost to the city to do that. So if we keep them as tennis courts, then they will just be replaced via the warranty. There wouldn't be an additional cost to the city. If we transition them to pickleball courts, there will be an additional cost, and I've listed these out here. $133,000, or $130,000 is what the contractor's given us an estimate on what they think would be the additional cost to change that to pickleball courts. So there would be some... additional surveying mobilization, additional fencing gates, because when we do the pickleball courts, we'll have gates in between each court and fencing. We have, there'll be additional lines done through that, and then we have additional pickleball posts, footings, and nets, and things that, if they were to stay tennis courts, wouldn't be that much. Probably the big ticket and the thing that we would like to do is to put in brand new lights out there. Right now the tennis courts are operating on the lights that have been there for many years. If we repurpose these to pickleball, we'd have to readjust the lights anyway because the way the lights are set up are not set up for pickleball, they're set up for tennis. And if we're gonna readjust, our recommendation would be to put brand new lights in there so that we would have those lights that are similar to what's on the current six pickleball courts. So total cost, 280,000, recommended budget of 300,000 with some money for contingency. If we wanted to tweak the pickleball courts a little bit, maybe put in additional sidewalk in between the courts and things like that. Because it has not been surveyed, we don't necessarily know that just yet. That would be, we'd have a little money set aside if we needed to do something like that. We do have a potential timeline from the contractor, and I know Neil was talking to the contractor today. Is the timeline intact? Um, so this is a general timeline, but if the city council were to say, we wanna move forward on this and they would remove these courts, uh, in the next month or two. So September, October, 2026, uh, the November, 2026, they'd put in the lighting infrastructure, the conduit. Um, and then if the conditions were good in November, December, they would pour the concrete. And so we'd have those done. March April if we're not able to do the concrete in November December we would do in March April of 2027 and then they need time to cure and then we got to put the surfacing and that needs a moment to cure so the Ideally the timeline would be by Memorial Day 2027 these courts would be ready to play. I And so in essence, the courts would be closed from demolition to opening. So they'd be closed for about eight months in the course of doing this. There's two things that if we're gonna transition to pickleball courts that need to be considered. One is our neighbors, specifically the Bullocks, Brent and Connie are here. I talked with Brent earlier today as we talked through what the proposal could be to go through the concerns that they may have. This is not a public hearing, but I've invited Brent here so that he can address the council. with their thoughts. I think it's important to hear directly from him what they think in regards to this. And then we also need to have a discussion with the high school that if we're gonna take out two more tennis courts that we revisit our agreement with the high school on the public use of the tennis courts at the high school. And I talked to principal Hanks today to Have that initial discussion that if the City Council wants to head down this road We want to work out a better system than what the system currently is the system currently is is that all eight courts are locked and Four of the courts are available for public use, but you have to go to the rec center and check out a key and then go up and play tennis and then return the key. Ideally, four of those courts would not have any locks on them. People could just go and play when they choose to play. I revisited the agreement that we have with the school district when they purchased Battle Creek Park from us. It did say that the courts are intended for public use unless there's a scheduled high school practice or a tennis tournament, then they get first priority. Other than that, then they are available to public use. In my initial discussion with Principal Hanks, he's not super familiar with the agreement. He wasn't the principal when we did this agreement, so I'm sending that over to him so he can review it, and then we'll have a follow-up discussion If city council chooses not to repurpose the courts at discovery, then it's, well, I'd still like to work something out there so that we can get that figured out to make those courts a little bit more accessible.

Scott, did that agreement have any type of expiration or was it just in perpetuity or was it just kind of more of a memorandum of understanding?

it's an actual interlocal agreement between between us and the school district and it's more than just tennis courts it talks about the pavilion it talks about because um it was part of it is they needed the land to build valhalla so that was the uh initial discussions and they wanted to build new tennis courts and we we had a let's see i think they had the softball field out there maybe we did i'd have to look a little more closely but In essence, they bought the park off of us and we took that money and we put it into Shannon Fields where we built two more baseball softball fields at Shannon Fields because at the time there was only two out there and now we have four. So that was all part of the deal as we were making maneuverings as a city to make sure that our programs weren't going to be affected negatively but it was also really dealing with the school they've been really really good about these partnerships between the city principal hanks is awesome to work with he's been really good and so this is just one of those things where we haven't really talked about it much in the last a little bit i think you remember when we built these initial six pickleball courts at Discovery. We had the tennis team come to one of our meetings with sharing some concerns. I want to get out in front of that a little bit if this is something that we want to do. I want to make sure we're communicating with the school about how we want to handle that.

So that's... So I have some questions. I think they have a new tennis coach, too. I think the other old tennis coach, Sam, was a little... Yeah, he told me that today. They do have a new coach.

They have a new tennis coach for the men and women.

But I had some questions about the cost. I don't know if we want to get into that now. I mean, you're asking for a $300,000 budget. We just are going to be passing potentially a tax increase that is essentially just a little bit more than double that. Yeah. I guess the question I have is how carefully have we looked at that bid? Does that seem?

No, this is a cost estimate. This is not a bid.

Well, but this is what they've come to us and said this is what they think they're gonna need in order to convert it, right? Yes.

Oh, did they? Do you wanna come up, Neal? I mean, Neal's the one that's been talking about this specifically.

And Scott, you were talking, was care tax gonna be used for this yesterday?

Yeah, our intention would be to use care tax and not general fund money, so money that's here marked for these types of projects. That would be our intention.

The drawing in there performed by Horrocks is a near construction level drawing that we provided to the contractor to provide hard number bids for the project. So we do have this number from the contractor. The Musco gave us a bid estimate. They can't do a full analysis until the construction drawing is complete, but they gave that to us almost a year ago, and we've added a little bit of contingency onto that. So I feel really confident in these numbers to meet this design. If we change the design or add

more to it sidewalks or or enhance the footprint that's a different discussion but i feel very confident this number is is a good number provided by the the contractor and a fair number you think so i guess that's where i'm going is is the fairness of the number i look at it and i say okay we don't put in pickleball we put in tennis courts then we save the 300k because they're obligated to put in the tennis courts

Except for the lighting, I think you were saying.

Well, the lighting stays. That's if we change the lighting. They can put the tennis courts back in and still use the old lighting, because they're set up for that.

We cannot change to pickleball courts with the existing lighting. there's a very large expense to where you can't even really salvage the existing lights and use those for pickleball. So it is a must-do on the lighting. We can't salvage the lighting.

Yeah, if we go to pickleball. That is correct. And that's what I'm getting at. I mean, I feel like... And I don't know, I don't build pickleball courts, so I have no idea how much it would be if this was a new project just for the pickleball courts going in. I think all of the pickleball courts portion of Veterans Park, I did a little research on this, I think the pickleball courts were about half that, again, a while ago, yes, construction costs. Probably doesn't even make sense to compare them, but when I think about the amount of money we're putting into this, yes, it's care money, but that care money can be used for anything in parks and rec and other arts and cultural things. So we can shift, inevitably, the capital requests we're going to get from parks and rec next year, we would be able to use this $300,000 for those instead of general fund money. So I don't view it as saving us money. It's just using care money that could otherwise be used. So I guess, but my main question, and Neil, this probably goes to you is,

do you feel like the 300k is a conversion cost or is it a new court cost new courts would be about a million dollars yeah it's a it's a conversion cost we're we're essentially getting the entire reinforced concrete underneath the slab for for no cost it's already there all of those other costs are associated with fencing uh and the lighting and conduit and um contract

and additional fencing, things like that that we're gonna need.

Yeah, gates and stuff like that.

Yeah, I mean, I just feel like I, for me, and I've already told Scott this, I think I'm in the minority, but I'm like, well, 300K when we're asking for a tax increase to get 600 additional K doesn't sit right with me. So I'll be quiet, because I think I already know where my vote is, but I'm a tennis, I'll be fine with the tennis courts.

So regarding the lighting and the expense for that, is that replacing all the lights on, Both ends of the the tennis and the current pick up all like what how many lights are we talking about for the hundred fifty?

The current pickleball courts have brand new lights on okay, so those would stay okay This would just be on the two tennis courts right now.

It's 150 just for those yeah Even if you were to turn those in a pickleball There's no way to save like because are the poles in good condition like there's no way to repurpose those into LED lights configuration of the footings and the conduit layout just

The poles might save $2,500. It just isn't a factor in saying let's repurpose those. You almost spend a lot of money trying to take them up, save them, put them over here, and then put them back up versus a new system. You're really pennies at that point comparatively.

So Steve, I understand what you're saying, but it's not a fair comparison because the care tax cannot be used for the tax increase that we're referring to. That's not the same money. And the whole purpose of the care tax is for projects like this. And unless there's another project on the horizon that you see as a priority for me, When I go to Veterans or Discovery, I've been to Discovery probably half a dozen times this summer and have not been able to get on a court in the morning until about 11 o'clock a.m. That tells me the community is using these courts every single day. They're packed. And I think this would be a good use of the CARE funds. I'm not for taking it out of the general fund to do it because that would be money that could be put towards our property tax increase. I don't like the argument because it confuses people thinking, well, you're putting pickleball courts in when that could be going towards public safety. That's not the case. It cannot legally be done to do that if we take it out of the care fund. And so I think that confuses people when we say that and then we're saying, well, we're doing this tax increase and forget about the public, we're gonna do pickleball courts. no, these are two separate pots of money and two separate funds for that very reason. But again, unless we have a specific project, I think this would be a good use of funds because Veterans and Discovery is packed literally day and night. And we've had to go other places because Discovery's been busy from 5.30 AM until, 10 PM. So it's hard to find a court there. And I think they would be used by the public more so than the tennis courts. And I think that shows me the public wants more courts because you can't even get on them at this point, which I love. I've seen, um, it was actually a discovery the other day. It was probably a 10 year old kid and three men in their eighties, probably what grandpa, a couple of grandpas and probably his dad, they were taking turns rotating. I love that. To me, that is what our care money should be going towards when families and friends can go out and play, get outside, use our facilities, and I wanna see them packed. I love that. So unless there's another project, I think this is a good use of the care funds. And I'm in favor of moving forward with the feedback from the neighbors. I'd like to talk with other neighbors as well and the high school to make sure they're on board because I want their support. But for me, this is a high use facility and it will continue to be used with more courts.

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just, we can use the care tax money to facilitate a greater amount of money being available in the general fund. For instance, we can use care tax money to fund parks employees that we had to fund for the Cook Family Park. We funded that position a couple years ago, $90,000 a year. and we could fund ongoing expenses that directly relate to recreation and other, the PG players, other places where we put general fund money currently, we could shift and contribute care tax money to those budgets and then free up general tax money so that it could go to these other, like go to the public safety and other things. While right now, currently, it's earmarked as general fund money being funneled into these departments, we could change that and make specific line items that qualify under the care tax as care tax expenses, thereby freeing up an additional 300K in general fund money. That's my point, and that's why I feel the way I do. But I get what you're saying, too. It's a valid point.

No, I understand. I was under the assumption that we couldn't use for employees the care tax money.

Well, I mean, we can with the exception that it has to be renewed every 10 years. So we choose not to because if for some reason you're sending an employee that doesn't get voted down and we've committed that to ongoing operations, then we're in trouble. We have never put it towards employees. Well, not never. We do use it for I think we have shifted it all to like PG players and that type of stuff. So some of the things in the general fund that have been kind of an ongoing cost, we have shifted some of that. We just don't put it towards hard employee costs, if that makes sense.

Sorry, I've got a question. Is this the same contractor, right? Same contractor would do- The same general.

Same general would do- They will use a different subcontractor to do the- Probably have to under the warranty.

Would do the tennis versus the pickleball. What does the general want to do?

What does the general want to do?

If we gave him a choice or if we asked him, would you rather do pickleball courts or tennis courts, what would he say? Yeah. So it's sixes for him.

I think so.

What are you driving at?

Are you referring to quality?

They told us at one time that it would likely save them money. I'm not going to share my cards.

I'm just asking a question on actual costs versus anticipated costs for tennis courts versus pickleball courts.

Well, wouldn't tennis be cheaper?

Well, we don't know, we don't know. Hence the question, right? So did the general ask any, or did we have that conversation with the general, is the general Does he prefer another?

The conversation we had a year ago when we were heading through this process was that there could be some cost savings for the general if they are pickleball. Because of the structure of the layout of the apron, I don't know if Neil can answer that better than I could.

I mean, the cost savings is because he's obligated to cover it because of the warranty, right?

Yes.

And is that kind of where you're getting at, is for him to save money?

Well, what Todd's saying is, do they have a vested interest in the city making these pickleballs so that they can save a little money?

Yeah, what I'm really, is this $300,000? Are we saving him a little bit of money? Are we costing him a little bit of money?

I think he's eating the cost one way or the other, whatever cost that is.

Well, he's eating the cost, but is there a difference in cost? Now you're making me show my cards. That was my point. Yeah, I mean, where's the loss coming? I mean, where the loss is is here. We have the loss, right? We have a product that we invested in that is now failing. Now we have to make a decision to say, all right, do we just have them redo it and we lose, what, four years or five years of use, right? Or do we come out of pocket again for another 300,000 and where is the liability Where's the liability that should be?

For him, right, on him?

Well, he's operating under a warranty.

He is, and so. Here's my thought, Todd, and maybe this answers your question. The replacement of the existing pickleball court, which doesn't have a dollar amount here, because that's the warranty portion, he's eating that. Whatever number that is, he's eating that.

Not only for the tennis courts, but also the six pickleball courts. That's what I mean. That's what I mean.

The six pickleball courts that already exist that he's gotta replace, whatever cost that is, he's eating that cost. but where he's potentially making up some of that loss is in the new margin that he makes on the new job. If we simply said, just do the replacement of the existing pickleball courts, he eats every, well, if we leave the tennis alone.

Well, the tennis courts have to be. No, he has to redo the tennis courts. Because he did those too.

But it's not that, it's not just that easy. It's not, it's, what I'm concerned about, I think what Council Member Rogers is concerned about, is this a shell game? Steve.

Yeah. I mean, that's the question is if we were to put out a conversion and say, okay, we've got somebody who's gonna pay the cost of putting the concrete in and to put it and, and, and to grade that and to make sure that the subsurface is right, because that's what he's committed to do with the tennis courts. If we have a contractor coming in and say, okay, if you have somebody covering that, all of the, of my costs that are associated with the site prep and everything else, what would they charge us to just do the conversion? Spot on.

I mean, Neil might have an idea on that, but I don't think we... That's what the $130,000 is.

Well, but that's from them, isn't it? Yeah, it's a... Well, if I'm a business owner, I say I have a warranty. I happen to be a business owner. I have people come in. If they're upset with the service they receive, guess what the cheapest way for me to remedy that is? To do the service myself and say, oh, by the way, if you wanna tack on X, Y, and Z, then I'm gonna charge you and make my profit margin on it as well, right? And so now we're here, and we've been damaged because we weren't given the product, but then we're still gonna shell out for somebody to make an additional profit on it, which, hey, I want people to make money if they need to make money, but at the same time, is he charging us a premium? Is he giving us a deal? If we were to put this out to bid, would it be 300 or would it be 150? That's the question that I would have.

150 is the Musco contract that the contractor makes nothing on. That's a direct purchase from Musco that we make as a city.

So Steve, are you saying like if we have like a line item from him to determine what's happening with the breakdown from him as compared to other estimates?

How much is it costing him to put in the other six? He gave us a cost. it was like 110,000. I added the 20,000K for contingency, because I always.

I noticed your numbers didn't add up. I always do. So I figured it was a 20.

And then I'm like, you know what, the budget should be 300. I've been in this long enough that, So when I come to you to say I need to do a project, here's the number I need, I wanna make sure that I have enough to cover all of the ancillary items. Because we might dig it up, there might be some clay on one side that is ours to dig out, I don't know. So the contractor gave us a number, I reviewed those, there's fencing and gates, there's $110,000 the contractor's not, He bids five to 10 to $20 million projects. This is not something he's trying to get a couple thousand out of us. He wants to be done with this and move on. If you said, which one do you prefer? He's gonna say, you just make your choice and I'll put it in the schedule and we'll get it done. And I don't think he's happy about any of it because he's having to take the six pickleball court, that's all on them. He's gonna cover that warranty, dig it out, replace it, be done. He just, we're the ones, we as a city approached him and said, is there an opportunity to put pickleball courts here? I live right there, too. I see it almost every day. The pickleball is a dang popular option. Whether you guys choose to do it, it doesn't make a difference to me. We're going to manage it and make sure that it goes in. Well, and the tennis courts have cracks in it, too, as I've walked by. Yeah, they're under warranty. All the work there is under warranty. Let's make that clear. You're going to get new pickleball courts for $130,000. That's the real cost. The lights are above and beyond. You're getting new lights for that.

How much, if we were to add soundproofing pads across these new courts, is that included? Has that been included?

We already have them. They're already around the tennis courts.

That's why we have a guest back here.

I want him to come and talk to you. They are on there?

We have some. Is there enough?

Yeah, it should.

Connie, is there enough?

Well, here's the thing. The sound barriers are going to do what they do, and they're not going to. The what?

Who's going to do?

No, no. We already have them. Sound barriers are already up.

Oh, sound barriers.

The sound barriers are already up on the tennis courts. Yep. So they'll go back up on the pickleball courts. Whether they're effective, we have two eyewitnesses back here that will tell you how effective they are. Because we have them at veterans, but between veterans and the homes, there's a street in between. And so there's cars going and it's not the same impact as what it is.

That's why- Do we have as- He laughed at me but I can hear him at my house.

Do we have as, we're not gonna go there. Do we have as many pads at Discovery as we do at Veterans? Do we have what? As many pads.

Barriers, I don't know the same level of barrier.

Yeah, I mean we have I mean we have Pat we don't have pads along the parkside So the on the street facing the park we don't have sound barrier on the street side we do but we have sound barrier along the south side the Bullocks and along the east side Where we do have a street and then we have homes there.

I'm just I'm just thinking I have no experience or credentials on this, but I would think that the more pads on even the park side would deaden that sound as much as possible.

I will say that the barriers also make it very, very hot because you're blocking the wind.

Well, and they reduce the visibility. If you're on the park side and you're trying to see if people are playing, it's kind of hard if it's all surrounded.

But I also want to be very, very, very cognizant of the noise pollution that exists nationwide. It's a turn on the news. This is a big topic for most cities. It is.

The east side would prefer to not have them because you have blocked the whole way to the park.

I'm not talking about the individual where they sit. I'm just saying we have a duty, in my opinion, to ensure that we deaden the sound as much as we can. I agree, 100%, 100%. And if we feel like that would help, then it's probably a discussion that we should have. And then we can decide east side, west side, north side, top side, bottom side, whatever.

Hang on, if I can, because we're about out of time.

And I think it's...

I just, I really want the Bullocks to have a second before we adjourn.

County, do you want to come up too, or are you going to let him handle it here?

Oh, okay, all right. So we'll have them come up. Keeping in mind, we can continue this discussion in council meeting because we do have an agenda item there that discusses whether the council wants us to proceed or not.

This is basically just if we're going to proceed.

This is informational, and if we get to the discussion part in our council meeting and council's still not ready to give direction to move forward for whatever reason, we can always table that for another couple weeks. So with that, let me turn it over to Brent.

Welcome, Brent.

Nice to see you here.

What a pleasure to be here with you folks. First of all, I met with... I know, Scott and Eric, and they promised me that there would be no sound here and I have got, I'll sue them if they lied to me.

From a judge.

Yes. The current pickleball courts is a little ways away from our house. And I can hear everybody who hits the ball. It doesn't matter. And it starts early in the morning, lasts till 10 o'clock every night. And the tennis courts are sort of busy, but not as busy, obviously, as a pickleball court. When I saw that you guys were doing this, I figured it was typically I'm off the council and so now they can get even with me. No, I spoke with my son, he lives back behind our house, and we have decided to not interfere with your decision. You can go ahead and put the pickleball courts there if you desire. And we will put up with, I look forward because I'm old. I'm not going to have to hear to for a long time. But I think it's appropriate for Pleasant Grove. I want to be able to do that. I just ignore them. So I think it's a good deal for the citizens because the pickleball courts are always jam-packed with people. So you're welcome to do that. It's just 25 feet away from my property, so you're nice and cozy with me, but we're happy to do it. And I've talked to my son, and he's agreeable as well. So other than that, any questions you want to ask? Thanks, Brent.

I would say thank you. Yeah, your perspective is appreciated.

Thank you. It's good. It's a good town. Great people.

It is. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Connie.

We could ask for an acoustical study. A lot of cities have actually done acoustical studies. And there's actually Acoustical Society of America that has done 60 plus pickleball noise studies.

We'll have them stand at Diana's house and then we'll go down to Discovery Park and play.

for some reason, the sound in the evenings and in the early mornings I can hear.

And is that because the sun is going down or is that because of?

Ambience, the sound carries a little better at night. So Brent and I talked about a couple minor adjustments and things that we feel like we could do as a city for relatively low cost to help mitigate some of this. So if the council gives us the authority to proceed, then we're going to, we'll continue to work with the Bullocks on the mitigation of the sound. So this isn't just a hey, Brent's here saying I'm okay and now we're going to do whatever we want we are very cognizant of the Bullocks and the neighbors there and we'll figure out what what that looks like so great okay thank you Scott so um we will yeah discuss this further in our City Council meeting so um we have like three minutes let's let's have Sherry do you have three minutes worth or

welcome thank you so i just wanted to give a shout out to public works and police and parks is always helping us public works has helped us out a lot with the amphitheater project like britain has really done a lot on it And that's moving along, and they've managed to do it so that it won't cost as much. So they've been awesome with that. And also with helping us with a van for our courier for the Timpanogos Library Consortium. Just very kind to us. And police, too. He's not here. He stuck out. He went to get our food. He sent an officer, lieutenant, over to the library for our staff meeting just to do a Q&A session and was super patient with our dumb questions. So just very helpful. I have a question for you.

Yes. The police used to do like a walkthrough, just a casual walkthrough, anytime they wanted, just so people could see that their presence was there. I don't know if they still do that or not.

No.

Okay. But I don't know if you need it.

They are very willing to come if we call dispatch. Yeah. Oh, and the Historic Preservation Commission did their walking tour yesterday, and they got 75, 80 people there. It was a really good turnout.

It was good.

Yeah. Yeah, and I always find them so interesting, so I was glad I attended.

Awesome. Thank you. Well, we have like one minute, so I'll entertain a motion to adjourn from work session.

May I make a motion? I'll second.

Okay, so I have a motion by Councilmember Rogers, I think that was, or Todd. Councilmember Williams, and we have a second by Councilmember Anderson. All those in favor?