City Commission - Special Meeting

I call this city commission/county commission meeting to order. January sec 22nd, 2026. Uh would you join me in the plex? To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, [groaning] indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

If you would lead us in prayer, please everyone bow their heads. Join me in prayer. Heavenly Father, this evening, help us focus uh help us seek God's presence, guidance, strength, and peace and wisdom for the day, asking for help to live righteously, serving others, overcoming challenges, and finding purpose. We [snorts] are all in here this evening uh to work within your grace and in your God, [snorts] your words, actions. Please be present. Please show us how to love, how to trust, and guide us through the purpose of today. We thank you for the gift of today. Fill us with love. Cast out fear, open to hope, endurance, and strength times ahead of us. In your name, we pray. All right. This special meeting of the Pittsburgh City Commission and county commissioners was scheduled to [clears throat] uh discuss poppy taxes and the 2026 budget with all of us here. Uh, I had a conversation with Darren a few days ago and I just have to say he made a comment that our former finance director Allison Ramsay found mistakes when she was doing her job and she corrected them. Now, I don't know if you call this a mistake, but I think in what Allison would have done, what we need to do tonight is correct what happened. So, having said that, [snorts] moving forward, I'm supposed to be talking in this. I don't know if you guys can hear me or anyway. So, I'll just go around whoever uh wants to talk

or introduce themselves to people that are sitting at home. They might not be able to see your name tag. So, could you start off Lisa, let us know who you are. Yes. Um I'm Lisa Lesker. I'm the Crawford County Clerk. Yeah. Hi, I'm Jim Emerson, Crawford County Counselor. Appreciate you having us, Mayor. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Joe Golano, Crawford County Treasurer, Carl Wood, County Commissioner, and I also want to thank P City of Pittsburgh for hosting this tonight because I think it's real important. And something else, I know history-wise, I don't think I ever seen the county and the city together commissioners wise, but again, thank you. [clears throat] I'm Tom Moody, second district county commissioner.

Uh Bruce Blair, first district county commissioner. Ron Sig league, city commission. DJ Perry, city commission. Chuck Mel, city commissioner. Stu height, city commission. Cheryl Brooks, Pittsburgh, city commission. Darren Hall, city manager. Uh Jay Buyers, deputy city manager. Missy Scott, director of finance with the city. Tammy Nagel, city clerk. Jacob Bennett, deputy city clerk.

And our city attorney, Henry, again, he's not here, but he's going to be joining us on the telephone. So, how do we want to start this? I'd say probably explaining to the public what has happened um would be a good idea. I know it's some of it's been in the media. Some of it's been in the media. It's been um you know discussed in different places all over the county. Um so an overview of what's happened um how it took place um and then we can move on to hopefully some suggestions and direction how to fix it uh as a group. I'm very glad that we're all here together tonight because I think we owe it to the taxpayers. I know that the county is different from the city as far as their budget. And I think we can all agree that ambulance, uh, sheriff's department or police department, road and bridge or even roads here. Those are things that people do not want to see cut because whenever we need somebody, we want them to come. And I know we can probably come to agreement somehow to make this all work out, but for me, I think it's all about the numbers. And I'd like to see the numbers be corrected and then just move forward from there and not make it to where it's a big um deal. It is a big deal to taxpayers, but if it can be corrected, I think it we owe it to them to make this happen.

So, oh my goodness. So, we reached out to Lisa last Friday [clears throat] about um there's a form that the county provides which kind of kicks off the city's budget calendar for the year. We do some preliminary work, but we don't really have any numbers to work on. So, we reached out to Lisa and said, "Hey, our [clears throat] mill that we submitted was 50.854. Obviously, it came in at 52.006. So the starting point was to get that original form back and have her update it with all the numbers that you know once we turn it in there's about four months that it goes to the county and then we get every year there's a slight fluctuation because as she says she says there's so many changes going on with protests and things like that. So we're like can we just see um the form how it ended the year and then we could easily look at it and see where the mill increase came from. For us that was a good starting point. We have a copy of that here. Um the two things that jumped out, um the biggest thing was there's probably $4 million change in our assessed valuation from the budget that we submitted as our adopted budget to the end of the year. And Lisa pointed out that um in our calculations, and this kind of goes back to what Chuck said, we've had four finance directors in about five years. Um Jay says five, but I'm thinking four, but and and Jamie Clarkson. When Jamie was here, he' been doing it for 27 years. So we never even questioned it. But um Allison did come to us one year and said, "Hey, I think we left out I think at that point it was the tiff or the red." So we corrected it. Um the next year went by and it was fine. This year Lisa pointed out, she goes, "Well, in your calculation, the tiff and the red, which is ever growing in this community, um was about $3.2 million." There's a small line under there that says, um this is not in the total. we misread it and said that we thought it was in the total so we didn't

take it out. Um when she got the forms, this is her job. She went through um and checked all the math and took that number out, which of course increased um the assessed valuation pool that we thought we had was much smaller by about $3.3 million. And that led to the 1.152 mill increase because what we do when we submit our budget is as much as we're saying we're looking for this mill rate, what we're really saying is we need this $9.3 million from property tax to build our budget on. And so she makes that change very late in the process and and we and and that's the 9.3 million that we already had in the budget, but it caused the mill in order to generate that much money off of the assessed valuation number, which was now smaller, she had to increase the mill to 52.006. 006 happens every year. Um doesn't usually happen like that because obviously um we over we overspoke how big the the assess valuation was because of that tiff and red. So, we did talk about the form in general and we shared we we looked up some other forms and said, "Hey, you know, it's always confusing, especially when we don't have somebody that's been doing it for 27 years." And she said, "Yeah, why don't we before we submit our budget next year to the county in that what September? Give it to her well before that and say, look, this is where we're landing. Is this match is have we have we addressed this form correctly?" Because that's really where the error came from. and she said she'd be happy to do it. I personally would love to see something at the very end as well, but I don't think that's possible. I mean, you're talking November, December when she's actually finalizing our budget. She has to do that 50 that adjustment of the mill rate. It would have been nice to to come back and say to the city, "Hey, you're looking at an extra $27,000 um at this increased mill rate if you really wanted to set your mill rate." Because that's what we do every year. we come to you and say we are going to

leave the mill flat and we are going to take the growth. But when we did that this year um because we had that um miss the tiff and and re was in there it just it had to be increased. If at that point we would have been able to go back and say well let's take 207 out and stick with the budget that we planned on submitting. Um, but I don't think you have I'm not going to talk about your process, but that's really late in the game and I know you're following the state's rules, but that's that's how we got to our 207. And u I want to say thank you very much to Lisa because um she probably took four or five phone calls from us in about three days saying, "Okay, now we're looking at this number. What's that?" and she was very patient and said, um, yeah, and understood that, um, it the process just needs to be I think it needs to be easier to understand and it it probably needs to be a little more flexible, but she's got the process she has from the state and that's the one we're using.

That's I just I just like to ask Lisa or anyone else, is there a mechanism that we can do just what Darren asked to do to if there if you see that there's going to be an increase like this year was 207 207,000, is there any wiggle room in there where where he could come to us? you you tell him they come to the commission and we could remedy that.

So, my schedule is really tight as far as when things are cut off uh when the state says we're no longer able to make changes when when we feel like we can cut off changes. Um because, you know, I have all the budgets in um we shut off all changes because changes are made all summer that there's things that move on, there's things that move off. um owners change. Um you know, sometimes things are exempt, sometime things are sold. Uh so we have to keep going to get the most up-to-date information in order to turn it over to the treasurer for collections. Um the the legislature likes to add things and usually when changes are made and things are added, it's added to the clerk's office. Um, and I'm not saying this to get pity or whatever, but my that's why my timelines are so important. Um, so I guess moving forward, we probably could have a conversation. I could call, you know, and just the problem is during the budget process, I don't see what you all are doing. Um we we have our own budget process which takes a lot of work sessions, a lot of hours, a lot of painstaking, you know, changes and cuts and conversations with all departments. Um I imagine it's probably the same with you guys. It's just a very timeconsuming process. But um we we probably can have a conversation after you guys get, you know, a formal draft of your budget and just see where we are. it. Unfortunately, with the changes that happen during the summertime there and the early fall, there's just no way to know exactly what your final valuation is. And that's why the legislature has changed my job as far as

we're not go, you have the initial revenue neutral rate that you either decide to exceed or you decide you aren't going to exceed. And that's done in in July. Once you do do all the things to exceed it, um, you guys might be looking for a certain mill rate, but I'm not. The the legislature has changed it to where I can change the mill rate in order to meet your needs for what you need for a dollar amount. Um, so, you know, we can go through and um and look at that. Um, our problem in the county is really exemptions. Um, that's our biggest thing. Uh, really I don't know that I'm supposed to be taking this stuff off that is is exempted until it passes through the board of tax appeals. But we know it's not going to be tax. We we know they can go back two years. So, you know, say they do pay their taxes, then we're kind of on the hook to pay them back in the year that they get approved. So, we just usually take it all out. Um, it's a it's a big job. I work with the appraisers's office. I work with Joe's office. I mean, we all work very closely together. Um, we go through a lot of conversations. We go through a lot of exemptions. We go through a lot of everything. Um, I'd just like to say I take my job really seriously. I try to do it to the best of my ability. Um, this is one arm of my job. I also have elections. We had I mean I honestly there's still things I'm learning about this job that we do I didn't even know we did. Um I have a great staff. Um so there's a lot of numbers floating out there. Um I don't know where most of them came from. I I I

know the numbers that we have. I know they're correct. Um I've talked to to Darren and Jay. Um they now know the numbers are correct. we have the same number in mind as far as what what it would be what the actual ending valuation was [clears throat] what happened during the process and we're you know uh Darren's right on in what happened um the RHID was left out of the valuation when when it was plugged in to do your budget um and that's 3 uh almost $3.3 million of value so that is already built into our system um into CIC uh which is our software company. It it's built in to where it will separate the value out, but like Darren said, um there is a little note on my budget sheet that says it's not subtracting it. It's uh not subtracted from the total value. So, you do have to back that out because RHID I guess I should back up a little bit and explain. RHID is uh I think they've changed it, but it started out as a rural housing incentive uh district. So, those are the homes in the taxing units that we've created that um that have been built. They were given a small value of what the land was. Uh a house was built and then the taxpayer um is paying on that smaller amount. So that that's not actually tax money that anybody collects um on the house amount.

Lisa, I I just want to correct that statement that the property owner does pay the taxes. It's just that they're not all distributed. They're they're sent back to the city in this case to be [snorts] sent to the developer, right? Sorry, for the development cost. The taxpayer pays the tax. You do pay it, but you distribution process, right? You guys don't actually receive that tax money. We can't use it to pay for service. It's not it's not income that you guys can write down to pay your bills. That pays the uh contractor back for the interest. The developer um sorry I misspoke about that. But um so that shouldn't be in in the total value because it's not a chunk that you're going to be collecting on basically.

But so that that's just the length of the red though to be clear, right? I mean Yes. Yes. It does go back on the Yeah. So whatever your your RHID, you know, value is you will I don't know if it's 10 years I think I' have to look it can go to 25 but it depends on when it the initiative oh okay okay so um yeah once it does come back on the tax roles you can add that value in it won't be RHID anymore to just be absorbed into the Pittsburgh taxing unit

um so anyway the numbers are are final um and from what what the paperwork that I've done and just knowing what happened and trying to figure out um the budget amount was uh set in September by you guys and you decided you needed $9,342,043. Um so when you did your budget it was with the higher valuation that had the RHID included in it which is not correct but um so that made the proposed levy of 50.854. So if you take the actual valuation the final levy was set with uh which was 179,626310 I just going to say the numbers because you know I haven't written down and you multiply it by the proposed levy um that you guys had figured on your original budget that you wanted to stick with um of 50.854 854 that would be $9,134 or $1,716 of advalorum tax to collect. So if you take the bigger number and you min you subtract the smaller number, you get $27,000. So that's basically what

extra. Now you're not getting extra. It's the same amount of tax. Nobody's going to It's illegal to collect more tax than you've put in your budget. Um, I I can't move it. I can't change it. Um, it is what it is. So, I've figured that with the the difference and it's 27,000 and Darren said that early on. Um, I don't know where the other numbers are are coming from. I've heard 500,000. I've heard three. That's noise right now. That's not the actual number. We have access to the numbers. We have them in our system. We've shared them with the city. I mean that's the fact.

Can you help us explain one more thing cuz I don't think so. Um under the AV column it says the submitted and adopted budget that the city submitted which was the 18373 295. Obviously you took out the RID and another the RID was basically $3.3 million. there's another almost $800,000 and you told I was trying to tie back to the number the other day and you're like you're not going to be able to tie back to my number after you submitted to me because there's so can you kind of talk about what comes and goes from that four months where we're like

well yeah I kind of went over it a little bit earlier there's changes that's made in the appraisers's office they submit the changes up to my office and we implement the changes it's it's changes in um it's exemptions it's you you know, changing from vacant to, you know, putting some value on it with a building. Um, it changes ownership. Um, there's just lots of changes that are made and the valuations tweaked. Um, you know, protests are made, people want their valuations lowered for whatever reason it's granted. Um, so there are there's it could be higher, it could be lower, but when you figure your dollar amount for what you need for your tax tax value, your for what you need out of tax money, that is what we are aiming for. Um, that's what I aim to do is to get you the money that you've decided that you've needed to run your your town and you know distribute that out. So,

and we did catch the 183 originally it was 198. The the one thing we caught early was um the hospital was still in there of like 16 million. So, we did we did reach out to to your office or the appraiser and he was like he gave us a sheet that said here's the possible things that are going to change property and then he actually highlighted another number and said I think you would be comfortable taking this out because I believe these will all go through BOD or whatever the process is. So, we did catch that piece. Um,

and we are going to we're going to work with the um the appraiser and figure out some things that we can do to better get that information out. And you guys are really one of the only taxing entities that this happens with because you have these RHIDs, you have, you know, tips, you have, you know, all a hospital that sold

just sold. Um, the important thing I think to say is that this is not something that I feel like I made a mistake on. You know, it was a it was a mistake that you know the through the finance department. I mean, you're going through changes. It was not to it was not to collect any more money from the taxpayers. It was not to line anybody's pockets. It wasn't something nefarious. It was it was a mistake that happened that you know now you're tasked with figuring out what to do next. Um to go into if if everybody's okay with that.

No, Lisa, nobody's here pointing fingers. Like you said, it's a mistake. We're here figuring out how we can correct. Absolutely. And I I I'd kind of like to get into the numbers just a little bit. Um if you guys are sure

satisfied with that. I just don't want to um rush. So, when we're looking at I I hate to say rebate. I don't really know what to call it. Um you know, [clears throat] distributing back tax money uh to to the taxpayer um for that one mil 1.152 of mills. It's the 207 um,000. I've just done some quick and this is with information that um came to us in the summer, the initial assessed values and it's not like final. It's not with changes and and everything that was set by um the end of the year and turned over to the collections. There were 600 or 6,782 residential properties in the city of Pittsburgh. So if you do this redistribution of the 27,000 um about two 2362 residents will get less than $10. So that's like 35% of of what's out there. Um over 5,000 will get less than so like of that 6,782. um over 5,000 will people will get less than $25 back. So I think when it was initially thrown out there that you know this is going to help you know these taxpayers you know with substantially I mean what we're really talking about is is the highest taxpayers in the city and you know Joplin Kansas title holder ever uh Kansas crossing pit plastics I mean you're talking the majority is going to go to these businesses and you know higher values. So people that pay more

taxes are are going to get a bigger chunk of that if that's what you decide. Have you heard from any of those that want their money back? No, I' I've not heard from anybody demanding money. I I don't know what you guys have heard. I'm not, you know, I'm not in that position. So I I couldn't tell you. I just wanted to make sure you guys knew that that's pretty much where we're at. Do we know what kind of expense that would be, Lisa?

Uh, well, I'm glad you asked that, Tom. Joe and I have been uh really trying to figure out how to implement this, how to make this work. Um, we don't really have a specific cost for the city. Um, [snorts] but it's going to cost something. So, I imagine that would come out of the $27,000 that you're wanting to redistribute. Um it's almost an impossible task but [snorts] um

I don't know if you want to say our software our two software vendors for both our accounting software and our tax administration software uh have not been very uh uplifting. [laughter] I I'll use the word uh that it's something that that uh they think can be done very easily. Uh, so at this point we're still looking into it. Jeff, did you say it's not something that can be done very easily? Exactly. Okay. It's really not. It's a monumental. So, so [clears throat] what you're saying is the numbers you gave us that the 2362 residents would get less than $10. That's before you figure in the expense to re

Yes. And that's the entire 207. I mean, that's even I don't know if that's something the city even has in there. I mean, I I just figure when you do your budget and you set your numbers, you're really setting it to what you need. I mean, I know that's what the county does. We don't say, "Well, throw an extra, you know, 600,000 in for this or that." I mean, we just don't. We're more responsible. I think our commissioners [clears throat] are more

if we ever got to our reserve levels we would. But um right now like I said we'll take the budget our starting point is to set the mill keep the mill level which is we've been able to do for the last four years I think and most of the years before that. Um, and then whatever we get, we obviously our costs like the county, everybody's costs are going up so much that we appropriate what we if we get 9.3 million from property tax, we're going to put that into the budget. Obviously, the sales taxes are all earmarked, but we have a running reserve that we use. Um, it's supposed to be two months of expenditures, as you probably already know,

for most um government agencies. um it's a little bit under that in the general fund, but that's um that would be the only time I think if we were plum on reserves and we thought everybody in every department had exactly what they need, then I guess there could come a day where we'd be like, "Yeah, we're fine. We don't." But yeah, we're always we're always um working uphill to provide more services than we did the year before, and everything is always getting more expensive. So So what are our our what are our choices? Uh well, that's that's what we're working out. [laughter] Oh, sorry. Before we before we get into choices, I I think that what needs to be said here is that, and you said it correctly, there's an error that's taken place.

We collectively need to make sure we don't make an additional error moving forward and to make sure this doesn't happen again. Yes. And us all being together is a start of that.

Yes. Um, I just like I I want to press I know we're going to have some kind of options on what to do and what makes the most sense, what's most cost effective, but again, I I don't want any of our public safety to be affected by this by by a number game that they weren't involved in. Um, the safety of this community, um, the people that need them the most, the darkest hours, you know, those are the people that are out there on call and we're in here at a desk. I want to make sure that those people don't get punished because we're trying to figure this out. Just that's a separate fund. Am I correct on that?

Well, I mean the public safety is funded not only from the general fund, but the comm but the voters voted to pass two sales taxes to fund it. So, um, in essence, that's it's it's it's underfunded from the property tax just by the definition of somebody decided that we needed more tax money and passed two sales taxes to supplement it. So, it's never going to be funded, but the recommendation wouldn't be um to to cut anything. I mean, that's why we have a reserve. It's a it's a minimal amount. It's $27,000. And quite frankly, 150,000 is only the amount that we're talking about because that mill is split by three ways. The library gets a piece of it, which was about 25 grand. I don't have the exact number. And then the debt levy gets a piece of it, too. So, the general fund, the impact is is $150,000, which is less [clears throat] than 1% of the general fund. So, it we're not talking about anybody not being funded on the police. And quite frankly, to be clear, we're not in a business that's not public safety. Our parks and wreck are public safety. They're a safe place for people to go recreate. Our water utilities is about safe water. Our wastewater um the city is generally every business we're in is public safety. So, I know police and fire do the lion share of the work and and and and I I don't want to discount. There's a the general fund pays for all of our park services, um the municipal court. Um, so it it it's it's it's more it's all the city employees and and I don't think that that cutting $27,000 or $150,000 out of the general fund would do anybody any good if I mean what's what is the county doing? The county's got a a little bigger number. They're a bigger budget. What's the county's number?

For what? For what do you what which number are you talking about? For the overage overage on the hospital. Okay. I've uh I've heard two numbers. I've heard uh around 750,000. I've heard 800,000 which is a lot more than what you got. Is these numbers correct? So it's seven. Yes. Um I don't have the exact you know which it was to say between 7 and 800,000 but it's relative your budget size our budget. I mean so are you go ahead. What do you guys think? I mean,

well, that's what we're here for tonight, to see which way to go because part of it, you know, we get from the city and then the rest isn't from the county, right? So, um, so they're they're two separate two separate issues. I mean, if you guys want I obviously you can do whatever you want. Um, let's talk about the county now. We've talked about Yeah. Let's tell what what you know what happened um and how much it played into it and where the money we plan on going with it. Okay. So,

so the hospital sold um our software kind of our software drops the ball when it comes to big things like that. Um, for some reason the 13,000 or sorry 13 million that the hospital was exempted off was still in the valuation. And I mean that's that's ultimately on me. I need to, you know, we have figured out a better way to try to get um valuations and changes in tax status and and everything from the appraiser up to my office and make sure that we're keeping track of everything. We've already implemented a plan which is is going really well, but um there's no extra money. So a lot of things have been thrown around that you know we have our budget padded you know there's a lot we're collecting more money we are not collecting more money it is the same amount we we again we would not statutoily be be able to collect more money than what is on the budgets that all three commissioners signed and approved. Um, [clears throat] and it's up to the commission to decide what what to do next. I I still think that it's not as easy as just writing checks. I mean, it really is not. It's a huge uh we have 30,000 parcels, you know, whereas it's 6,000 for for the city of Pittsburgh. um it's a lot more spread out, but again, we're talking about utility companies. We're talking about, you know, the big big businesses, and we're not talking about life-changing numbers either for the average taxpayer. I mean,

before we go any further into the county, Tom, I just want to say that, you know, you all had meetings like we did, and the last meeting we had, it was like, well, this countyy's waiting to see what the city's going to do, and now the city's waiting for uh what the county is going to do. I I don't think that's the right approach. I think that's why we're here. And uh you know, I just wonder if this how would we have found out about this if it didn't come forward? We just took it and and uh whatever. You know what I'm saying? Yes. That that's the

the answer to your question is yes, Chuck. You you guys, like I told you last week, you guys set a budget. It's a dollar amount. We set a budget. It was a dollar. Our commissioner set a budget. It's a dollar amount. That's what we're collecting is that dollar amount, right? It's not That's the bottom line. A budget is a budget. The mill levy is nothing but a calculation, right? But Chuck's question is the answer to your question is we look at it every year once we get the final from the county and it usually changes by [snorts] 200s of a percent or up or down. I mean when it changed by 1.152 that's when we were like we probably need to get the form back and see what changed and that's kind of what drove it. So So the problem

it will be looked at when it's significant and this is obviously significant. So

the problem is again going back to my timeline I have up until you know I first of all to give you a little insight of of our office during the month of October um we are elections I mean we have we are underst [clears throat] staffed we have we are running six different ways and I am not only trying to run elections I am dealing with taxes I'm dealing with final evaluations. I'm dealing with doing sending all of my certified stuff into the state with the abstract um and also getting the tax roles ready to turn over to Joe to implement collecting and we are under a timeline. I mean I have November 1st is when I have to have it given to Joe done ready. I mean, we're this is not like a a you know, you have two weeks, here's your final valuations. Now, you know, if it fits into your schedule, if you can create it, I don't know what your rules are for open meetings, but you know, it's not going to be just as easy as me handing over a new sheet and saying, "Well, you went up or down, you know, 100,000 or up." The time to catch it would be before we submitted our budget.

I think we would come back and said, "Look, we've taken your form and interpreted it to be this. Are we right?" And I'm sure you pretty you probably could have found 10 minutes to go. Well, this says TIFF Rid is not subtracted from real estate value, which we thought it meant. Yes, we're not supposed to subtract it. My final number would have been different and we would have figured it out. Yeah, but but that's that's how we catch it going forward, I think, is what everybody what DJ was asking and Chuck is we can't we obviously can't do this again and and we won't. And now I'd love to say, well, Missy's going to solve all our problems because she's our new finance director, but a lot human [laughter] and she's already solved a lot of them. But it's on us to understand that form because

we apparently have, you know, somebody new doing it every 18 months. I mean, if I was to say anything, I would say, you know, we can't go back. We can't change what happened. One thing two is we all want the taxpayers to have their be fair to them.

But let's be realistic as far as logistical and costwise. And I know your office is skinny. Our office is skinny. We're down one person. And we still have a regular business to take care of just like you have your regular business to take care of. If we step back and we go back in and we redo those numbers and if we can get the software companies, which it doesn't sound very positive, to do those calculations for us and to send those checks back or whatever, this is also going to affect next year's budget because that's going to make you behind. That's going to make the calendar behind. Everything's going to get backlogged. We're going to have we're going to have a a backlog of all this and then we're looking at 2027 budget running in to it and it's backlogged and you're not meeting the deadlines on it. And I think that that's going to cause a lot more problems than this $10 or $25 that taxpayers are going to get back.

Well, it comes it I I would agree with you 100%. But it comes down to a political third rail. Absolutely. Yes. Uh either we we put the money in the reserve system. County has a reserve system, I assume, where they put money into reserve or we put it into reserve or we give it back. There's I don't or or some other Joe said something. Could you Well, I could you credit it next year? I would I this is where Jim speak. [laughter] I don't know whose idea it was, but

Okay. I've been waiting for my turn. So, thanks everybody. uh we've worked hard internally to figure out uh if we get to a fixed point, what does that look like? What are our options? Um and so the options as I see them, we've looked at so the original thought was we go back in, we redo budgets, we reset levies, we reprint tax statements, we try to pay people who have paid in full, we try to credit people who haven't paid in full. Sounds like from the software company that's going to be a disaster. I mean, I think it's a non-starter. Um, so we've regrouped. They're saying it's six months to try to build even the credit piece out. So we've looked at two options. One of those is um two options and then a third that I'll talk about. Uh the two options to give to give some or all of the money back would be a a check. You'd cut a check. Uh we're looking at about 28,000 of those. Um we're looking at a preliminary a preliminary partial cost of $2 each. uh you're up to 60 grand pretty quick and that is assuming that the calculations can be made. We have two different vendors. We have a tax vendor. We have an accounts payable. It's two separate programs. And they've gotten to the point where they were really good when they first started because you had people there that knew county government, city government. They were real creative. They knew how to program things. They're getting on now where they're we're we're lucky that they keep up with our basic needs. So when you throw them a you throw them an out off-the-wall solution and it it it's just like they're they kind of melt down and they're like I don't know how we do that for you. Go ahead there.

Would a would a city person would that save you on a check because they're getting the city and the county piece back? So yes, that would be one. Yes. So if everybody agreed to a check then right that would not be right. We wouldn't be 28,000 and then an extra nine that I know of. But there may be some calculations, some there may have to be some way to get get the data because Joe's going to have to get that data from the tax software to our accounting package. Two separate packages, but figure out banking. There's a lot to figure out. I'm coming here tonight without a final solution for you. But we're digging and we're doing the best we can uh to figure out some options for everybody because I think that's why I'm here tonight to help to help try to help with options.

Can I ask maybe you Joe this? We started out with our mill at 50.8 and you I know that's just a theories about about the number. So [clears throat] it was raised because it had to be the 52.006. So do we start the 27 budget at that middle levy or do we go back to the 50.8 or 48

that's that's where my concerns at. If we do nothing, then we start 27's budget behind with this new mill levy, the new number trying to move forward. So, we're already behind in 27. And I'm I'm glad Missy, you word it the way you did because I mean, we're there now. We're we're at 52. So, if you just take it off, I mean, you're setting the bud. You're you're setting the mill rate. You can just say next year we want to start at 50.84854. And I mean, that's that's what I tried to explain. back tracing the rest of the budget to meet that number without any other variables that we're dealing with today.

No, you got this is important. Okay, I'm going to try to say this again. We don't have enough money to run the city the way it needs to be run. That's why we don't have maximum reserves. That's why we don't that's why we have potholes. That's why we have work park stuff that doesn't get done. We always need more money than we have. The commission in the last 14 years has said 10 years ago we finally went from losing valuation to gaining it. And the policy that we have always brought to you through the five-year forecast and the budget is let's just leave the mill where it is knowing we can't raise it and do all the extra services that we'd really like to do. Knowing we can only do as much as we can. [cough and laughter] [clears throat] So that's where we start every year and then the money goes out. Then whatever that generates off of the assessed valuation is the money we live with. If you come in next year and say, "Hey, we got to correct for this and we're going to start back at where we were in 2025's budget, which is 50.854." The idea, I mean, everybody's cut happy. There's a list of deferred maintenance and stuff that we don't do to our parks and our buildings and our equipment that's 50 times bigger than our budget. We're never going to do what we're supposed to do. We're just doing the most with what we have. and you guys will tell us in the budget process what you what we can afford our taxpayers and that's what we that's what we'll set the budget around DJ we're not gonna have to we're not losing I mean losing ground is relative the cost of living is one year it's two the next year it's seven so we're just trying to keep the mill rate flat and live on the growth and the value that's all we've ever done I've never had a commission come in and say hey we're going up six mills this year because I want to get some more stuff done we just don't have that flexibility

we've raised it three mills one year we've raised it twice We raised it 1 mil when I first got here because we had we're down to a million dollars in the bank and we raised it three mills right when the property tax lid took off because we didn't think we were ever going to raise it again.

So again, just to reiterate that um the mill levy is just the number that you create. I mean, you could you could go into your budget next year and say, "Well, there was $27,000 that we, you know, that we didn't plan for or, you know, that we wanted to cut and give back to the taxpayers." You could you could wipe that out and, you know, take it out of next year's budget. I mean, that that to me would be the most painless u as far as implementation, but again, it's up to you. But, you know, you were you guys worked really hard to get elected, like really hard. Um I I from an election standpoint, I saw it. Um you knocked on doors. I mean, these people got you elected. They're going to trust what you do, what you say you're going to do. If you say you're going to cut the budget, $200,000. I would trust that you are going to do that because that's, you know, you were elected for the people. Just like you said and I talked to all three of the county commissioners that why can't we start say to speak in the whole next budget 207,000 we've already over spent.

Why can't we just hey this is 207,000

in the hole. You absolutely can 700 800,000 in the hole. to me that would be the most financially responsible as far as you know not having to pay to cut checks and and again we're talking cents like and I don't know where you cut that off. I don't know if if that's something that you wanted to do like everybody gets what you know what the difference in the mill levy would be. You're talking some people would get less than a dollar. A lot of people would get less than a dollar. So do do you write that check? Does it c, you know, do you use that money when it costs $2 to write the check or, you know, whatever? I think it's going to be more because I think you'll have overtime. I think there'll be more expenses that we don't see and I don't think that that's an inflated number.

Share those checks is 15 grand. So, there's a cost of that. I mean, simply to mail. And then there's there's the factor that we're still all human and everything's not going to be completely, you know, people are going to say, "Well, I sold that house." or, you know, I didn't even have that house last year. I didn't pay taxes last year. This is my first year in this house. Or, you know, I mean, there's a lot of variables that we can't control and that we we're not going to get right. They there'll be mistakes.

Chuck, what you're saying is like in our case, they're saying 700,000. Are you you talking about next year when people's pay not pay their check or tax come out take off give them credit? Say they have oh say their taxes were $600 and they got $200 coming back from the county. You saying take off from $600 and did they just pay 400? Or the people that just paid half give them credit on their second half? Well, you could do either one. I mean, you can't give them credit,

but but the people would be getting the money back, but we wouldn't be collecting it because we already got a budget set. Does that make sense to you? Is isn't it, Carl, isn't it more on the budget process that you back the 200,000 out? I mean, we would just start they would start there, but like with us, but like with us, we're 700. You know, I all the numbers that I had is a little more, but I I'd settle for 700. I mean, so in other words, we wouldn't we we wouldn't collect all this 700 because people would be getting credit back like me. I just pay mine half at a time. So, I wouldn't pay the the full amount.

Well, that's if you give them credit. But if you go with working from the hole us 200,000 and the county 700,000 when you figure your budget for 2027 you know you're down he's just talking about next year's budget next year's budget start next year budget in the whole you're not you're not refunding any money you're not crediting anybody where you're starting so we we'd have less for the budget because ours was 46.59 and it ended up being 48 something. So, we'd have like uh uh he was talking about we'd start out less than 46.59.

Yeah. So the people would not they would see it next year, but how are we going to operate the budget because we're going to be 700,000 less by going back to that number and then are we going back to the Well, I if if we go No, I'm just talking. That's just my thoughts. Yeah. If we go that route, then we know every department, I don't know how you guys do it, but every department you're going to come up with something less that adds up to this 200.

Yeah. I mean, think about it like this. One option as somebody said is we can just cut we can cut right now. If we if we weren't going to use fund balance, if you're going to cut a service, you can cut it right now. The other option is to lower the mill rate next year and cut it cut those services that you know they're going to get that credit for that 207 plus. You know I'm pretty sure most the commission wants to give property tax relief anyway. So that would be the starting point. That doesn't mean if we were already going to cut one or two mills that would be 1.152 of it. it would be the starting point and then we would still come through and I'm assuming the commission is going to say hey we want to cut another one or two mills depending on the economy and the state of the budget but that so you're you're really delaying the cut. I think the hardest part is to think to Lisa's point there's some big boys that are making that have more money on the table so they're the ones that are going to have to live with going without a hundred or a $200 check. the people that could make the argument, well, I'm I want my $10 now. Well, I I know, but it's

I think people would be more satisfied knowing that they was going to get a credit credit. You know, we're talking about next year. And, you know, we talk about the mill levy. Uh Tom's got a sheet right here. In 2018, we was 51.052 and in 2025, we was down to 46. So, we've actually cut our meal levy. But what got us in a pickle, my own personal opinion, we collected the assessed praise value because all value, the way I understand, if I got the right number, went up 7%. Mhm. So, you got two denominators there, but see, we was just looking at one. Yep.

We weren't looking at the second. So, is there taxes moneywise? I mean mill levy went down but their assessed uh assessed value goes up.

Yeah. Our mill levy at 48.63 is basically just a hair above where it was in 23 and it's went down every year. And I can tell you that this commission meets on weeks on end to work to get to the mill to get it back to where it was the year before or less. I mean, it's right here. So, I mean, we work for the number that we need to fund our operations. And when we have, you know, to beef up the sheriff's department, have to beef up the ambulance because what we've experienced, and everybody over here will tell you, with our ambulance department, we were losing employees left and right because they could go other places and make a hell of a lot more than what they were making with us. So, we try to fund four units all the time. There were times that we couldn't. We had three. Hell, there were times we had two.

Yes. And we've got a hospital that needs transfers. And until any one of you in here has to take a phone call from a loved one who can't get their uh family member to a hospital or from one hospital to another [clears throat] because you don't have enough ambulance. It's a real kick in the teeth. And you know, of the 700, what did we beef them up? 400,000 or something or something. So,

I mean, I'll reiterate um kind of what was said in our commission meeting the other day and really what it comes down to. It was a number. So, I don't think there's a 100% understanding of what our budget process looks like. You know, we meet a lot. We've heard that. But basically, what we start our budget process is we get given a budget sheet for each department. We look at it and we meet with 90% of those departments. Anything that has an impact, we meet with personally oneonone. some of them um Lisa may have three that or two for sure that she represents. We do those at the same time. So we go through each one of those on face toface meeting and look at the increases from the year before. Look at what those increases are, if they're justified, um if she's thinking something for raises for employees, all that stuff.

After we go through all those, then we go through and we go through those sheets individually. Well, Lisa's there, Jim's there, and commissioners are there. at least five times and we keep going through and we keep trying to cut money where we think, you know, in their explanation, well, we can do it that we can maybe do that next year or or however we do it. This year, I'll be honest with you, at the end of it, and there's miscommunication on the sheriff's department, EMS, but at the end of it, we were calling the sheriff in say, "Is there any way you can cut more money out of your budget?" Because we were trying to get to that magic mill number. You guys have sales tax out the proposed [clears throat] sorry out of the proposed budget not yet right I mean the budget was already set

so we got to that where we thought we were supposed to be and we fixed a couple problems EMS I agree with Tom it was a it's a it was one of those things that you don't want to go cry every meeting about what's going on because you don't want to show your shortfallings but we were failing there and we realized it and we had to prop it up um sheriff department he asked for budget we He asked for a bush and he got quite a bit and and he got to a place that he was com comfortable. The other day when I brought up cutting public service, it's because those were the big ones. Yeah.

Road and Bridge is a big one. EMS is a big one and the sheriff was a big one. If we would have known at that point, oh wait, we made a mistake and we got to get this mill number. I'm sorry, but every one of us should agree there would had to been cuts in those areas and I don't want to do it. But the rest of those areas, the other other budgets, there's not a whole lot. We don't have a reserve. There's a few things. I mean, we got risk management because of our insurance, but there are some years where it can go to nothing. Yeah. Um, we were there.

So, the 700,000 after going through it again and realizing, okay, we approved that number. There was no extra 1.7 million. We went through that and we were trying our best to get it down to that point. At that point there would have been impossible. We could have went back and we could have probably cut some in different places. I still have ideas if we come to conclusions that where we can cut some. I don't want to touch the sheriff's department budget any more than anyone else. I I definitely don't want touch EMS because I'll tell you who gets the short end on that. It is Gerard in the western part of the county. Right. Because there will be EMS and frameac and there'll be EMS in Pittsburgh and there will not be any in Gerard. Well, we Yeah, we I I mean just but no I appreciate

but with all this the turmoil going on and all the comments out there there's a lot of untruth in that cuz we didn't just get we didn't get extra yeah we didn't it's a timely process and we take it serious and we went through and we thought we were there unfortunately because that mistake or whatever you call it the burden shifted to other people um hindsight I don't know if we ever got to that middle this year no not with the increases we went in or at least I felt like we went in this budget with the ask after we went through all the meetings with all the different departments like there is no way we can get there this year right because it was so substantial

when Chuck got on his first year he made comments to me about I mean we just came I got here in 12 I mean 08 was the [snorts] the cliff assess valuation dropped 10 or 12 million and and the commission at the time the three or four commissions before I got here they never raised the mill because as I always am told, "Be careful cutting the mill because you aren't going to be able to raise it when you need it." And that's what happened. And Chuck's like, "We don't have" and I'm like, "That's why we did the one the very first mill increase." Cuz I was like, "We don't have any reserve." Reserve is a luxury. You know, it's kind of like your savings for your family. I mean, everybody wants to have some and some people have covered and some people they just don't have enough to put it away. So, we have made it a priority. Um, but I think your point's well taken. the city budget and the county budget are quite different, but the one thing we have in common is everybody knows they're not getting any more next year from me. We're going to start with raises and we're going to start with cost of living for doing the same thing and we'll be lucky if we have enough tax money to do that. And so the idea that we're banking money and we're piling money away um it doesn't happen.

Well, and to go back to that, sorry, let's say the 700,000 if we're going to roll it back and try to get to that now. If our evaluation's good, if our valuation's good, very I mean it's easier to do. Sure. Um but if the valuation goes out then we are looking at those cuts and I'm sorry for the county it's people or it's benefits or it's it's that's what it is. There's not a whole lot out there. You don't have taxes. We can go through supplement. I'm not down that but it's that we got to get to that if that's the goal and that is our goal right now to get that 700 off. for this budget season. It's going to take some work, especially if our valuation isn't good.

Can I ask the city commissioners what would they do? I mean, what just speak what you think your process on your 200 I think it's a number problem for me personally. We have budget book number one which was kicked out. We had budget book number two that was approved and then budget book number three that is what we're working off but this was approved. For me it's a numbers problem because people do not believe the numbers right at the moment until we get to the point where the numbers are correct or they feel like they are and then the uh state certificate they look to be different than the numbers that you were talking about here changed.

So I just the confusion is the numbers. So, I I've heard this question um from from Christy um Bitner. She's called me a couple times and we visited about it and like the three the three budget books. I mean, I get that there's there's a process. I mean, we I don't even But that's the confusion. I if they're right and you say they're right, I'm good with that. But the confusion is three and and I don't I haven't seen them. So, I don't know exactly what number would be different. I do know when you're working through a budget, the numbers I mean you're you're obviously changing your numbers, but there's two budgets every year. There's a submitted budget, right? There's another one. Well, we have working copies all the time.

Budget when Missy got here, we said, "Look, you need to go through and it started with the assessed valuation because we took the 16 million off." The one thing that has never changed in those budgets is the only legal thing in those documents, which is the certification page. And you know that and I know that because we've used it. We've talked to you about it this week.

Yeah. It's the numbers that are up on that screen. The budget book is a report that's trying to show accurately how we where the money goes in the budgets. And I think Missy um came in here and has cleaned up that third budget. But we always do two budgets. And the third budget is just a correction on the first one because it had the hospital and the sewer rate screwed up in it. But the certification page for the property tax, the adorum tax which goes to the state has never changed in any of those budgets. So, you're saying with the TIFF and the [clears throat] the uh neighborhood revitalization and block 22, all those numbers are in line and correct now. Is that what you're saying?

They change the final submitted budget that we not the submitted the adopted budget we send to them. They change the mill rate every year by some by some

we actually have a a blank certificate that I use. Well, I mean, it has your numbers in there, but it doesn't have the mill rate set. It's it's the numbers that you use from your budget. I mean, I have all the pages scanned in from when you submit it. Um, but I hand figure on the side what that mill is going to be because valuations change all summer long. I mean, that's kind of what happens. They go up, they go down. Um, so the final is not set until one certain point in time when I shut everything off and start working through my process to freeze the valuations. That's part of the existing process.

And another thing is that you guys are more involved in your county budget than we are. We're we're [clears throat] not as invested involved like you guys are where you Bruce says you talk about it and you go over it and that we don't see that any we we don't have a finance department either. So I mean I don't know what that looks like. I figure that's probably what what they do and they present it to you. Um, but these guys

submit a budget in July and have public meetings between July and when it's adopted in September for any public comment at any time from any commissioner about any of those budgets. We do the work that you don't have. You don't have a county administrator. So, the five-year forecast and working day, which we have, reflects all of us already meeting internally with me and my staff to present the budget to you that you get after the working day when you say, "Hey, what do we want raises to be? What do we want the cost of living to be? What's our valuations looking like?" And it all starts when you finally kick us our valuations in the end of June, middle of June.

Uh, yeah, I think June 15th. So yeah, while you don't see it, the opportunity is there and we can we can and we've already talked about having them at every meeting. But to say that we don't go through that process, there's a lot of processes you do at the county that we do at the city different because we have a city manager and you don't When do you see the assessed appraise value? Like do you see it? We get it in June. June June June 15th is when I have to have it to everybody including ourselves, right?

Yeah. So, we've usually done the five-year forecast by that and we've taken every revenue and extrapolated it out for five years and we've looked at where we are in our raise schedule, you know, with employees and we build that in and then we're waiting for that number because that number is going to tell us what of that we can actually afford to do. And then that's what we end up presenting in my submitted budget to the commission and say this is my budget and if you want to change it in the next three months, we can change it. And then we have the hearings whenever the state sets the revenue neutral rate and the other hearing. I do. But we can also do it the I mean we can have it. We just they've always just trusted us and said bring us a budget you think we want and you give us input on it and we put it together.

Carl Carlhead to your to your question Carl about what what I think this is my opinion as one one of five commissioners but I said it when Joe talked to us the last meeting. I'll say it again. The most fiscally responsible thing I think that we do as a commission is to agree to start off $27,000 less in next year's budget process. I you know after Lisa told us the numbers, Joe kind of had a guesstimate of it, but I mean for 2362 residents getting less than $10 before you take off the expenses to do that. Even if we're able to do that, I I don't see how if somebody were to tell me, "Hey, you're going to get a $10 refund, but it's going to cost you $3, $2, $3, whatever." Or you could apply it towards next year's balance or or next year's taxes, if you will. That's that's what I'm gonna that's that's my decision and that's what I have to go with is what what I what I think um you know there there's other numbers out there like Bruce said there's there's numbers that I'm not sure where they're coming from. I think promises are being made that it's a larger number of a refund and I think that's driving some of the people's decisions. But when you when the county clerk tells you that it's going to be what she said that that is what we have to look at. That's what I have to look at and that's what I would support is starting it on next year's budget.

So, uh, just just asking you my my opinion. Um, so we start out like a 700,000 less next year. So, if ours is x number of dollars, say say $100. So, we'd start out we're starting our budget out. So, we'd start out with a mill levy that we had before this increased. Uh 46.59, then we can work off of that. I mean, if you're that's that's what No, I that's what it looks like to me. I want people's opinion, not just mine. I mean, I I because I've talked to hundreds of people, right? And you guys kind of

you guys have a much bigger number to work with, so it's a little more impactful. But from our standpoint, and I really think from your standpoint, I just it's you guys aren't set up to make refunds. And I know that may not be what people want to hear, but um well, I'm leaning towards more like you say is give them credit. I mean, they sure is uh they'll get it next year and not this year. And Lisa had a great point. The people that elected us elected us because they trust our decision, right?

And I think that's what we have to go with. And I think that I I just I don't know how else to put it other than I think that's the most responsible way of handling this one time. I mean, this is I've done it for four years. You guys have done it a lot longer now. It's the one time that I can remember ever having this situation. So, I think we've all outlined how it happened, why it happened, what to do about, you know, not happening again. Um, but yeah, I think my opinion that's that's exactly what we do going forward and and that's up to you guys on how you do it. My question to you guys is if you cut that out, are you going to have to cut services the following year?

It it'd be would depend on the our assessed value what it does based on the same mill. So we're in the same boat essentially basically. So, you know, our assessed value goes up and hopefully it will, then that would help offset some of that that we'd have to raise. Do I think we could do it? Hell yeah, I think we could do it. I just want to say Lisa's started out with the the big players in town in the city that's not complaining and they're going to get a if we did something, they'd get a lot of larger percentage back for what they paid on next year on next year taxes. I'm talking about electric companies. Yeah. Who else? I can't say personally that I've had anybody call me or

Well, that's that's what I I read this somewhere and I'm not going to mention any electric company's name, but they pass that sales [clears throat] tax I mean property tax on to the consumer. So, if their property tax goes up, your electric bill goes up. And anywhere any of these businesses, they pass that on. Well, they have to go to to the commission, right? But it's passed on doc and we pass it on to to the taxpayers when ours goes up. And that's but but in essence, that's what our budget is. The reason we try to set the mill rate and take the growth is because the cost of the water lines and the pavement and the manpower goes up. I I understand.

So, we're just trying to keep up with it. Sounds like we 8% increase in our insurance. Yeah. everything goes up and and it goes up and I know you know we're talking about a dollar $5 it goes up to taxpayers too and and they they have a budget and they have to go by so you know I understand when you say our cost goes up but don't forget who's paying that cost because their cost goes up too and that's what I'm going to ask you guys so you talked about you need this 700,000 this year can you go back and and starting the whole 700,000 and go now and you're saying it depends on so

I think evaluation would be the biggest driver of how easy it is. I I mean obviously to me it's the same as cutting it right now. The only difference is I'd have to go back to those departments right now and say, "Okay, what can you sacrifice?" And and everything I've looked at is leading to employee benefits or people or raises, you know, costly. We haven't decided that yet because we're still waiting on this something that along that line. Um, but if you start instead of how we usually do our budget and we start with all the I like to look at as a a want versus a need list, right? And you start with a number, you'll know exactly where you need to go. I mean, we always use that mill as that. And may real realistically maybe we should use that number as that because that's kind of what we we we get to that point. You can always use the mill as a as a guide, but um is it possible? I'm sure it's possible. Now, what what what type of cuts would that include? I don't know. I mean, I think there would be some things we do this year. There could be spending we wouldn't do this year if we can offset it to be more prepared for that. And hopefully with that and raise evaluation, we're in a better situation,

right? Because there's certain things I know right now that we can go through. I mean, we've already had three or four uh elected officials say if it comes to not giving my employees a raise, take my raise. And I'm one of those. Don't give me a cost of living increase. But the people that work for us, sure, they deserve it.

See, one thing to think about, and if I throw this number out here, and Joe and Lisa don't agree with it, that's fine. But I've heard this. Uh, we went up 7% assessed praise value. Okay, I'm going to back up a little bit. Two years prior, we went in compliance with the state. You had to be between 90 and 110% of your assessed appraise value. what we got out of it. And I'm hoping [snorts] and praying that the assessed praise value for 2026 don't go up. And that's going to help us out if we can get that mill levy back down. Because you, like I say again, you got two denominators there. If the assess value stays right where it's flat where it is now, we go back where we was at, I think we're going to be okay. I said, I think, but you don't know what this SRA value is going to do.

Well, you guys got a bigger number than we have. If I heard you right darn while ago, that 207,000 you said it was really about 150,000. [snorts] Yeah, because we split it three way. I mean, the the library I tried to call Bev and didn't get a hold of her, but I I didn't figure we could just sit here and talk about cutting her money without saying what it mean. I mean, we don't really run the library. I mean, they just, you know, we collect the taxes and they have their own thing. And then the debt service, but we have um we have a debt reserve. I mean, one of the things that I've promised the commission is we're going to build up our reserves in case we need them. So, I didn't I didn't It's news to me that you guys don't have reserves, but I also know you don't have the revenue stream. Can I ask you this?

Yeah. I was always told that you couldn't collect more than what you need. Is that true or not? Just asking the question as a legal question or as a I don't care. I mean, whoever's got an opinion about it. I've never been anywhere. I've I've never been in a community where anybody's collected more than they Well, the reason why I say I mean and not knocking you, but you got sales tax for for safety. You got sales tax. A little bit of yours goes for the parks. See, we don't have no sal we got three revenue streams. We got property tax. We get a little bit from the landfill. And who's taxasino? We got the and the casino.

We get some sales tax. You get some sales tax. Well, I mean some but not uh proportion right to it's shared with the cities.

Yeah, that's my point is sometime before I got here the city, not the county, but the city said public safety ain't good enough, but we need a public safety sales tax. Our streets aren't good enough. We need a street sales tax. We don't have any economic development in this town. We're willing to pay for an economic sales set. So when you have those, we have the luxury of just saying you have to put a number down and tell Lisa we need I don't know how I don't know how big your budget is. We have the luxury of just saying look we can't afford to do everything everybody wants but we can promise them we're just going to keep the mill flat and we're just going to live off the growth. And this year, of course, we we blew it because we can't read, apparently. But, um, that's always been the intent and that's why it's easier for us just to say, let's just start next year lower in the mill 1.152 when we start and that will take care of that. Everybody will get that benefit next year.

Can we go back to Commissioner Wood's question though from of all the city commission? What what we all think we would do because I'm the only one I think that voice my opinion on on what to do. So, I don't think I heard from the other four. Go ahead. I mean, I'm the one that listen curious. Okay. Yeah, that's I brought that up. Start in the hole and lower the mill back to where we started and if you agree with me that Yeah.

And uh how about uh see if there was a little more to that question. uh we'd go back where we was at and the people would not be charged like in our case 700,000 and said where we went from 46.59 to 48 something so they'd be back where he is at. I mean they paid for it once but they wouldn't pay for it the second time. Is that what you're what you're talking? I think it's easier for us to do that than you guys, but uh I know we can. We want We're in this to I mean, right, hate don't want to We're in this together, right? We are in this together. We're all doing this. That's right. Trying to make this.

I would agree with what Stu says. Go uh go with the 50.8 and Chuck. Yeah. And Chuck. Yeah. Go with the 50.8. I mean, we don't have to decide tonight. We just want to see what avenue you guys have. We're picking brains. You're going to do have to vote on what we're going to do. People are paying attention. They want to hear we're going to take care of it. I mean, they want to hear what we plan.

No, this is monumental having this group together like this so people understand we're trying to make it right. I I feel [clears throat] and I I appreciate that question too. Uh being a new commissioner looking at this. When I when I came in, one of the first things that I wanted to do was be more involved in the budget. And I've sat down multiple times with Darren and Jay and uh staff. We've all talked this and we're moving forward with the commission being heavily involved moving forward with all budgets. Um I think that will have a better effect or eyes on more of the process that you guys use and and other entities with this much moving parts, this many things happening all at once. Um it'll also give us a better way to um explain what's going on to the people that we govern and help them understand what's going on. there's not a fire sale, there's not a all the chaos of this happened. Um, and in that, like I said, the more eyes on will help. We have a staff and and we, you know, they're they're good at what they do and we're supposed to um take the numbers and sit down. I think being more involved throughout the the year and the entire process will get us uh closer. Um, and God willing, we won't have another one of these situations where something like this has happened. Um, we keep jumping back and forth. Um, so I'll cover two things. Um, what I think should happen, what we should do is do what's right to the people. Um, what's what is most fiscally responsible for the money that we govern. Uh, taxpayers need to know we're doing that and there's options there clearly. U different directions. Um, spending their money to return their money. Um, it sounds chaotic too. Um, especially again if it's a couple dollars here and there. Um, but then building trust with the people of this community, knowing that we're doing the right thing and we're trying to make it as responsible as possible. It takes all of us. Um, I know there's not an easy button, make this happen right now. Uh, we've talked about software issues being uh, a part of what

would stop it. Um, the process itself just being learned by all of us that what what can be done, what's legal, um, what's not. But as a group, obviously you guys have to vote this differently than we do at the city, but in my position, I I would like to see the taxpayers cared for um in the best way possible. And if if if that has taken it off of their um taxes for next year um and then we don't have to spend the extra money mailing things out, that's that that sounds a positive move. But then you're also going to have people that move out of this county because of various reasons. They're going to sell their home. Um they're not going to see that credit. So, how do we justify taking care of the ones that are remaining and fighting the fight, you know, in a high tax economy and then the ones that are leaving are kind of empty-handed. So, we we have to look at that, too. Um, I don't think that's something we can, you know, push a button or or make happen in one meeting, of course, but I would like to see some some options. I guess you guys have a much larger number than than we're working with, but um I think moving forward um collectively as a county and the largest city in this county. I think working together on these things um getting these earlier meetings between I know you're very busy and you have crazy amount of responsibility in your jobs. Um trying to fit some time in there for all of us to have this and and talk it um will be paramount. Um so again, I don't have an answer. Um, I would like to thank uh Roger Longshack for putting everything together. He did on this and showing us the numbers. Again, I Chuck made mention to it that, you know, if this hadn't gotten brought up, it kind of, you know, people don't pay attention to the mill. They wouldn't have known it happened. They just pay their bills and move on. For me, and I said this earlier, I just want to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Um, my intent coming in, my very first meeting with Darren was uh to lower the mill levy in this first year being on this commission. Um, I want this this new commission to work towards that. Um, I want to get below 50 before we anything

gets to your guys' level. Like we're going to back budget, try to make that happen without affecting our public safety, law enforcement, and first responders. So, um, that's something I think collectively we're going to work towards. And to Cheryl's point, I think we're going to just start having probably in February budget meetings before every commission meeting kind of like you do and just say, "Hey, they I mean that way everybody can hear what the shortage is, what public works would like to do, what parks would like to do because a lot of people just don't know and we don't, you know, it's just we don't have that much money. So having everybody come up and say, "Here's our wish list that we don't want that we're not going to get," we usually just kind of cut to the chase. But I think it's important and especially now, I mean, if the commission wants it, um, we're going to make that happen for sure. But I do think at some point I'm going to have Lisa come over to a commission meeting before we submit our budget and talk about her sheet and her form and what it's looking like we're going to have for revenues and and tell her thanks for all the hard work she does because I really haven't ever talked to her until the last week. I think I've talked to her five times and she's like, "Lose my number, please." But she does a heck of a job and and uh it I don't know how you get it done because the numbers are just sometime sometimes you just like you're chasing your tail. But

I'd like to go back to our the the budget hearing that took place in this room. There was lots of discussion. I spoke as a civilian um to not going above the neutral rate essentially and ultimately you do the research and you understand the formula by agreeing to go above the neutral rate. you're agreeing to the raise in the funding needed, the funding of the taxes, and potentially change your mill rate. Um, and so people need to understand that. But the I mean it's a small speed bump in the process of trying to keep your taxes from going crazy. Uh, but it is a useful tool. So when you do vote to go above the neutral rate, you are voting for uh the middle levy to go up with need and and the budget itself. the budget's built around that extra money. Um, so that's something again we're going to focus on moving forward.

Well, somebody mentioned earlier that, you know, we get elected and we it's it's a lot of work, but it's enjoyable work when you go knock on doors and listen to people like in the audience tonight. There's not a lot of people, but when you go talk to them at their house, they're going to talk to you, you know, and I like that part. and you keep getting reelected of peace people trust you know and I don't know if you follow any federal or state government but they don't trust them very much and the local level that's all we got is people's trust in what we're trying to do and if if they trust us they're going to reelect us if they trust us you know we're going to make the best decision we can for them and you know that's what you know what it's about and and when I say that I want my thoughts and there could be other plans to start in the whole 200,000 207,000 [clears throat] and go back to whatever it was 508 and possibly like DJ said we might go down to 49. I don't know. But when I tell people that's my goal, they trust me, you know, and that's all that's all we can ask for, you know, to have people's trust because there's not a lot of it out there at other other levels. And I really like the uh local level because that's where you come in contact with the people and how you can help them the best way you can. So, you know, that's my two cents. I put it towards our 27,000.

Cheryl, you're the only commissioner that I'm Are you cool with that? I'm I'm great with that as long as the numbers are correct because like Chuck says, people trust us. my name, my word, my research, that means everything to me. And I know that I'm working for the people that live in this town. I want them to believe that I'm on their side, not big government, which is not county, but I'm or city, but I'm just saying that a lot of people are against government. Yeah.

But like Chuck says, we see all of you every day in town, working, playing, otherwise. And uh all it takes is listening to what you guys are asking for and that's what I'm doing and I'd be good with the 207 starting out.

And I think this this meeting was set for discuss taxes and the 2026 budget. Um Darren, I would ask you there's been controversy over these three books. We've gone over and over again so many times. U Christie has come in here and she spent, you know, weeks, hours going through it, I would ask you that maybe go back, take the questions that she's asked and let's get some answers for the questions on the difference in the numbers. So, I think one of them was around 2 million. Um, and I'm tracking with the what's sent to the state, what's sent to county has not changed, but there were numbers in all three of those books that were drastically different that filter to that number. So, if we could get uh just some clarity uh and we're talking about trust here, the information that explains why those numbers were different and then maybe we can rebuild some trust with the community on what's going on. That way the the three book thing uh won't follow us into 27.

Is that something we will do it and it would be a lot easier if we last year she just came into the office. We sat down with the finance director and went through them. This year it's been I know Missyy's sitting here and at 7 o'clock it looks like she has nothing to do but she's putting in a financial management system and trying to learn her job. So, we will get if we need to go back and listen to all the hearings and write down I mean I we try to keep up but yeah Missy has got such a good handle on that book and I think every question there is is easily answered and and because it all starts with the right numbers that are in that certification page and um but absolutely we'll go we'll go dig it up and if you

well like I said she's had some of the similar questions I've taken notes on the stuff that she's brought up and um like I said I know she's spent a lot of time on it So if she's a citizen in this community, she's put all this extra effort in, I think she's probably put more time in that budget than any commissioner that's sat up here. So if we just get some answers for those questions she had, um, get clarity for that and then, you know, I don't think obviously she doesn't want to do it in the closed door environment. She wants it here in the in the commission session. So I think that that's something we should

If I could say something about the drafts, the books, the three different versions. I just want you guys to understand the first version is a draft and it won't be any different when I'm doing it. I know I wasn't here when those were done, but I think that's just part of the process. So, when we start talking about three different books, um the draft is just a draft and we have to massage that and get that to the numbers you guys want. So, I don't call that a book. I mean, maybe I'm maybe bound and ready for you guys to look at, but I don't count that as a permanent draft. And that's not a book. The other two work.

It's a it's a work in process. And that's really what happened. And then when you get to the other two books, I realized yes, that's probably uncommon that you have one that was submitted and approved and then you have to make corrections. But I think that from what I understand in the meetings was it was explained why those were changed. And so I will be happy to sit down um and visit with Christie or anybody else and we can look at those numbers. And I took those two books and I laid them down in spreadsheets and I said here's the old one, here's the new one and I know where the differences are and made notes on those. So um if we will we can work through those. So if Christy wants to contact me, I'll be happy to

Well, we can just go through the videos and pull the questions. Well, I'm sure she'd be happy to come and talk to you again, but I'm thinking, and again, my my suggestion is she's been here so many times, there [clears throat] are a lot of people um looking at her numbers and what she's put together. And there were some drastic changes from book two to three. And I fully understand the the draft process. Like I' I've got 20 years of experience with that. We start with one, you know, we build it out and then somebody makes a change and you start over. Like you do it differently. You take variables out, you put variables in. I got it. But there's very pointed questions that she's brought to the commission that haven't been answered. Um, and I think again, we're talking about not doing anything right now substantial. Uh, but I think that will help with rebuilding trust with

that makes me worry just a little bit like now that I'm in the seat of director of finance is that I don't want you guys to expect that the first book that I give you is going to be the final book because it's not No, no, no. And again, we're going to be more involved. You guys do a good job of this. You'll come in, I meet with you each once before every commission meeting and you come in and ask questions and a lot of times you're like, "Hey, I'm going to ask you this question. Make sure you got an answer for it because I'm going to ask it at the meeting." And that's that's all this

if Christy Yeah. But it's not because Christy asks it and then we have to answer it two weeks later instead of just coming in maybe and saying I'm going to ask these questions have the answers for them and you could I I can't give her 14 questions. I mean, half of it is, well, this column means that it it's produced in a way. If she would just work with us, we we did it with her last year. We'd be happy to answer. There's nothing this staff likes more than telling somebody the answer to a question, explaining it. But when it's set up in a way that it's a stump the chump, which is a term you used the other day, then we're probably going to feel like it's a stump the chump moment. And well, and that's that's what we're getting away from by doing it. We got to stop it. I mean, it's got to be

She's got questions. She's voiced them to the commission multiple times and so now the commission through you yeah responds to her happy to answer all the questions on the budget. Well, I think somebody DJ and Cheryl probably mentioned that we're going to be more involved in the budget process and that means all of us hearing the same information at the same time. I mean if you go in visually talk to Darren and he says something to me I don't know what he says to DJ. So, we're talking about uh work work sessions before commission meetings and we can go over the budget. Christy or whoever is here. Maybe when we're talking about it, they can listen what's going on and uh you know, we can

and we'll tell you in advance which department we're going to be talking about. So, if you're interested in public works, you can come in that day and listen. Yes. And ask questions. Yeah. We can open that up completely. We used to do stuff and nobody [clears throat] ever came. So, Carl scared them all off. Hey, and Doc, what do you what's your opinion of all this? Well, it's turning into a commission meeting, but I know it is, but now we're I know that's fine. And I think a lot of this could be lashed out of our own commission meeting without taking you guys. But what do you think uh on this? I think that we go we drop back. Personally, I think we drop back to the 50.8. That way, everybody the following year will get a credit and they won't get a a check,

right? but their taxes will be lower and that will solve that problem. And then we get into the budgets, you know, then we get into the budget more deeply and more finely than we have in the past. And we start in the whole 200,000. What? We started broad budget process not only lowering the back to the mill, but we start in the budget for Doesn't the mill eventually lower a lower mill will lower that 200,000 each year? The mill is worth a little bit different money, but yes, basically I'm sure next year it won't be worth less unless the valuation goes down, which but we're still going to start 200. Only only thing you can hope and pray for that the assessed praise value stays where it's at. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and then you lower we lower down cakewalk. It used to go down five first five years it went down every year. It was scary. Well, here's my thoughts and my worries. You listen to federal government and you listen to state government, they're cutting things. And what's going to happen when they cut those at those levels? People are going to come to us and expect us to pick up the slack. And that can't happen either. Nope. We don't have that kind of money. But uh this is the world we're in now. We need to start focusing on the taxpayer and and working them into the equation, not they're the after effect. That's where we're at. Like you say, Chuck, we don't we don't work for the county, we work for the taxpayers.

I think Cheryl said that, but Okay. That's just what we do, you know. We work for them. That's why I tell everybody. We don't work for the county. We work for the taxpayers. And I don't know if this plan is going to make too many people happy. I think it will. It's not going to, like DJ said, why spend money to get money back? Why can't you just start out lower and and work from there? Uh, you know, we don't have the answers to everything. Well, I've talked to a lot of people. A lot of people have approached me in the grocery store and other places and with the exception of two people, they probably talked to 20 to 30 people. They say, "Take my that little bit of money that I have and put it towards better services."

That's what they usually say. I've heard that too, Doc. you know. So I I I think that's what we need to you guys need to do it more so than we do. The gun is in your I've talked to plenty too and that's pretty much what [clears throat] I'm So I think that's that's the proper way to do it at this point. Well, to be honest with you, you have I mean that's that is the sheriff's that is the sheriff's funding and that is EMS funding. I mean that's where that money's at. You guys did you you did it. I mean you boosted the ambulance. You got the MS where I feel comfortable and I didn't want to say this. We're hopeful that within the next few months EMS and transfer numbers go up and everything goes out that we start making not making money but we start offsetting some of that cost.

You have a huge write off when it comes to an ambulance. But it's just there's a lot of moving pieces and it's I I don't have a crystal ball to tell the future, but it'd be ideal if those, you know, most of our transfers have the capability of paying their bill and therefore we reimburse the people that were funding that fourth shift with and then essentially we're stuck with the three shifts what the extent paying for itself. That'd be ideal and then that increase does go back to the budget. But we were at the point we had to do that. Yeah. Well, like Tom said earlier and I'm not a county commission. I wouldn't have been in that like to been in that position. But when you call for an ambulance, you got to tell them we don't have one. No. What you do at that point is you beg your ambulance director

to get somebody else to find something whether it's a helicopter or even we've had jets come in from Witchaw in life situations and but you eat it, right? Do we eat it? Yeah. If they don't if it doesn't get paid, do you eat it? Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. on a transfer if it's our equipment. Yes. And I'm [clears throat] not going to say how much we don't get paid. And we've tried, but we went to bill collectors that the states got something, they get a refund there, we get it. You know, it's just on and on and just like, you know, like a water bill. They don't pay their water bill, you go shut them off. Well,

you don't shut them off here. Missy shuts them off. So, like I said earlier, We heard the county going to wait to see what we do and we're going to wait to see what the county I think the city has come up with what we're going to do. I don't know what the county is going to do. Well, what like I say, we got a meeting uh the way I understand it. We I mean, we got a meeting tomorrow. We got a meeting Tuesday. You guys got one Tuesday night and looks like we're pretty well everybody's on the same page knowing next next year's budget. you know, we're going to go back to our meal levy and people will exort their hopefully their money back.

Well, I think just like I said, it's going to be easier for us to find 207,000 that we can reduce department budgets by and it's not going to affect police, fire, roads, water, sewer plants, or anything. We we can find that, you know, reduce it. Yeah, we'd be happy to trade you. Have anybody has anybody approached the county any of you at any any level about uh offsetting valuation hikes that we're dealing with across the nation right now? Well, the way I understand it, if you're talking about the assess value, that is set by the state, we have nothing to do with that. Correct me if I'm wrong, Joe, or Lisa, right? No, that's that's incorrect.

Okay. The the county appraiser has to appraise every property every year. They they set the value. A use is set by the state. State assessed properties are assessed by the state. But local real estate is appraised by the county apprais. It's it's been brought to my attention. The assessment rate the assessment rate is set in. Okay. Assess rate. Yeah. Statute. Okay. So the taxical value is taken, you know, times whatever the assessment rate is.

There are there are areas that are trying to offset the inflated uh valuation, property valuations right now by reducing their middle to accommodate. It's not one for one 100% but they're trying to reduce it. um on their municipalities and function rates as opposed to just going along with the the raised levels. Have you guys looked at that? Anybody talked to you about that? Is it No, I mean we've got the sheet that shows that's what we've got. That's what we've tried to do. So we we were at 51 mills in 2018 and and we could have stayed there and we'd been in pretty darn good shape if we'd have stayed there. We decided to cut the mill over the years. We were down to 46. Uh so we've cut four and a half mills over, you know, we didn't just take the

we didn't just take the money as it came along. We actually went do and cut this year. We had to go up two mills because of what's happened. But yeah, I is there is there any way to if say the city wanted to take a rolling average of assessed valuation for the last five years? Is that even possible? because you said I mean you know the assess valuation I don't I mean you guys said it we don't set it but could you go back and say hey this year it was going to be seven the last three years it was this let's average it and do

well see what they do they and you guys probably know it too we got to be between 90% and 110%. If they sell a house say it falls in 78%. We're not in compliance as what I've been told through the years. So 2 years we was out of compliance. We were low. We was low. What was his assessment? And I I is it two years or three years? Jim, [clears throat] the third year, don't they come in and the state comes in and

you know uh they give you a letter that's not nice and they and they called us and they were on the phone and the guy kind of gave us a lecture and you know they're giving you a pep talk that you need to raise your your value. You they need we need to raise our value and there's there was no doubt about it. And what you don't want is the state. What you don't want is the state coming in. So it's so they're by region by state. No, by county. So it's by county. And I'm Joe says I get over my skis sometimes when I start talking [clears throat] because I'm not the appraiser, but you can't keep it. They are they are graded. Oh, we can't do it. So the appraiser is graded. They are graded on their sales.

The state comes down and takes a look at every sale in the county each year and how close we were to that sale price. As you know, the sales prices have been pretty hot in the last several years and our appraisers been trying to catch up to that. If not, then they're they get we get a report card that's a fail and eventually the state can come in, take over your department. I don't think it happens very often, but it but they could they encourage you to get your values up. And so that's what that's what's happened. $400,000 house in Crawford County sells this year and it's assessed at 425.

Yes. So it it sells at 400. That that lower value essentially collectively would hurt the process. But if you have a a home that I don't know, somebody's moving to the area, they have to have it. They pay 70,000 more than it's actually worth, that rushes everybody else's value. Or 100 or question is how do we battle that? That's what's happened, DJ. That is what's happened. That is what's been there several times. I'm just we've we've looked at it and it's the fact that they don't most [clears throat] counties don't have the problem we're having in that regard.

Most counties are not growing. You know, values are probably going down in most of them. And there's I mean, you always have growth in the bigger counties, but what we have is perfect storms. You have people that come from out of state most likely and they overpay on a piece of property just because it's a deal in their eyes because they sold theirs for way way more somewhere else. and it 100% affects our valuation and we've been fighting it every year and there's just no way. I mean it it has to come from the top down. I've spoken with legislators on on the capping at 50% annually thing and that's that's a band-aid for what's happening. It's not going to fix it. It just takes them longer to do what they've [snorts] done. Um so I mean there's got to be some way we can we can do something.

You notice a lot of these people comes from California. Yeah. And boy they think they're in And they are. And they are compared to what they had. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, we'll take them all in Pittsburgh. We need So, I know we're going on here, but we had we had a question about rolling averages, Darren. Blow that off. Well, I think we're required to do what we're required to do. So, we're going to give you what we have to give you internally if you're if you want to run different numbers and lower your levy based on But it's not a county state. We we have to follow this. So, we have to give you we have to give you what we're required to give you by statute. You could do something different internally. Can you talk real quick about sheriff sales because I've been getting a lot of calls about why aren't we doing sheriff sales and I'm like I think we are.

Well, the good news is that we are. So, we have uh we've partnered with a law firm that does sales in 30 counties. U which is good at no cost no cost to the taxpayer. Costs are paid out of the sale. And so it's good news for the taxpayer, good news for us. This firm's knowledgeable. They've got pretty good staff. We have turned everything over to them. I've heard from them this week. They're working on our sales. So, our goal this year through them is to be caught up. So, we've turned every every sale, every property we possibly could is is in their hands. What year are you on on that sale?

So, we have made it to 20, let's see, we'd caught up six years. Uh, I think we have given them 20 2016. There's about 300 properties, Chuck, total throughout the county is where we're at. would be substantial. It would it will be and I and I think I they haven't promised me, but we're going to hold them to getting that done uh this year. And but this is what they do. So, yeah, we've turned it over to a professional team and we were doing the best we can, but with not really internal issues, but even abst you know, we were just having problems even getting what we needed to do.

This is a joke, but if when it comes to a tax sale, if they're from China, are you going to sell it to them? There's a tax. I mean, hey, you can't out of towners come to these tax sales. Before we break, uh, seriously,

these five people have worked their tail off for the last I don't know when this meeting was scheduled, but we don't work with the county very often, obviously, because we can't even interpret your instructions sometimes. But um everybody up here needs to know this meeting went so well today because everybody jumped in and said we got to figure out these numbers. We can't ever do this again. What does this mean? Will you make time for us next year? Joe Joe screamed a lot. But I won't get into that. Not tonight. And Jim, I thought Jimmy was another employee you guys had hired until I figured out it was actually what Joe calls Jim. But well, we should have one once a year.

But we should do this more. But anyway, this was really helpful. And this is it's because of the staff work so hard on it. So I want to make sure we give them some credit because they have I think I think everybody likes it when Joe gets animated. [clears throat]

Well, like I said earlier, I appreciate it all for hosting this and I know you went through a lot and I think it's helpful. I'm glad it's televised or or whatever it's on and people know and maybe people will realize that uh we're not trying to scan them. Well, I think we all dreaded having to have this kind of a meeting and we're going to fix the problem so we don't have to have another one on the same topic. So, but we should get together uh and I think you know we used to count. We used to have that but I don't know who's turned this to host it. The pandmic kind of killed all those but it's time to get them going again. Yeah. No, we can do it. We used to meet before that. Yes. Twice a year.

Y good stuff. Well, again, thank you all. Thanks people for watching. All right, we got a motion to move close it. All in favor say I. Thanks everybody. How are you? Good.