Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Here we are. Make sure my friend's on a second. And then I get alert saying that well the see the African. Where on the What are you looking for? Are we live? Okay, here we go.

Let's call this meeting to order. And roll call. Derek, Mimi, Tim, Jeff, and David. We do have a quorum. Let's have the pledge of allege to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Call to the public. This is a business meeting of the planning and zoning commission. The town values and welcomes public input. Please address the commission as a whole and not individual commission members. Do not address staff or members of the audience. Commission action on items brought up in call to the public is limited to the open meeting. Commission may direct staff to study the matter and reschedu for further consideration. at a later date. Items on the agenda will not be heard or discussed in call to the public. Individuals are limited to three minutes. Do we have anyone here to speak in the public? Being none, we'll move to item C1. Consider approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of the planning and zoning commission held back on August 14th, 2022.

I make a motion, Jack, that we accept the minutes from the August 14th meeting. I'll second.

Okay, it's been moved and second we accept the minutes as presented. All in favor, raise your right hand. Approved unanimously. New business. Item D. Public comment will be taken at the beginning of each agenda item after the subject has been announced by the chairman and explained by staff. Any citizen who wishes may speak one time for five minutes on each item. Agenda item before the or after the commission discussion. Questions from commission members. However, directed to staff or a member of the public through the chairman at any time. Item D1, public hearing, discussion and consideration regarding conditional use permit CUP-135. applicant to allow up to two horses on APN 311-29- 025 community development. Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, I'm not the community development director. I'm here in place of Jeremiah this evening. I'm serving as the interim town manager. uh repeat again as I did last month, not here in uh my other capacity as a planning and zoning commission member. I'm I was appointed interim town manager and uh assisting Jeremiah in this role tonight. The applicant uh as you mentioned is Don Taylor and Todd Cartchner. This is for a conditional use permit allowing the applicant to stable up to two horses on a little under one acre of land located at 3250 West Coyote Drive in Lakeside. Um the APN number is 21215009U. Property is zoned C1, which is a

commercial zoning district situated right on the busiest uh highway that you'll find in the area. I mean I this time of year obviously with the with the visitors uh that that roadway is extremely busy. Um the applicant uh actually started this uh activity on this property without zoning approval. does not have a business license and we have uh issued letters, non-compliance letters and uh so forth to the applicant and uh I think at one point perhaps before I got here I think he came into a council meeting and thought that he you know was given approval of a conditional use permit. He never made an application. uh we told him that if he wanted to he could. Uh we suggested to him that his request would be a difficult one because of the nature of the business uh along the state highway uh and the traffic that's involved there. Uh, I think Jeremiah even went as far as suggesting if he wanted to have his um application fee returned that staff was going to recommend denial of this conditional use permit because it's just in an inappropriate location. In Jeremiah's investigations, he also learned that the United States Forest Service uh limits the number of commercial stables in the area, and they've issued all the permits for uh stables in this area. Those stables in are in locations that are much more appropriate with more horses. And I believe the United States Forest Service is also going to go after this applicant to uh issue a cease and desist order tonight. Just simply our recommendation is for the planning and zoning commission to deny the request for this conditional use permit. Uh it's

just not the right location to house horses on this property. This owner lost a dog I think on the property uh you know out into the traffic. And I know that there has been other one other occasion maybe one maybe more of a horse being hit uh by vehicles on the the highway. not a safe place to bring uh stabled horses in a a small commercial piece across the state highway to to ride over in the Wooden Lake Park area. And so we are recommending for your denial of this request this evening and happy to answer any questions that you have.

Thank you. Is there is the applicant here or anyone that would want to speak on their behalf? I don't I I I don't He's not here. And I think Jeremiah received a phone call or called him yesterday to remind him and he said he wasn't going to be here. He was he was going to be here. Okay. So, he reminded him

uh he is renting or leasing this property. Uh the property owner, I believe, will ultimately be responsible if this operation does not cease. The owner will be issued a violation notice. It's he is the responsible property owner as well as the the applicant who is leasing this space. Uh Zoe's Adventures, they may have other activities that they can do on that property. It's not about that. It's about the horses that are being housed on this commercial piece. He needs to cease that part of the business. And if he wants to continue to do a business as Zoe's adventure doing other things out of that space, uh he would have to come in and get a a town business license as well, which he's not done yet.

What are the other the other things that he's offering? You know, I I I I know that the horse uh back riding is primary. I I really have not gone over there to find out what are other activities he's doing. But when I see your horses in a little area that he's kind of created a stable and uh you know I if he were here he could answer that for you but he's not here to answer that. Yeah, it looks like he has the back area back there too, does he? Behind it. I believe he goes all the way back to the alleyway. Yes.

You know, if you if I may, Chairman, um you know, I I'm sad to see that he's not here. Um because I I went and toured the the whole facility and I love the optics of having horses in town. You know, it kind of brings them wild west feel. Um however, this isn't the wild wild west and we need to not do this ask for forgiveness thing. Um and it seems like every step of the way he has not even attempted to comply. Um, you know, as much as I would love to see something like that, I mean, I kind of like the location, notwithstanding, of course, the high traffic and animals getting hit and people put in danger. That that part doesn't jive, but it's kind of cool to see. But

I didn't know they were allowed horses in Woodland Park. I don't believe there are any restrictions at the present time. uh you know I think there's been concern expressed about horses that are out there on the uh trail system which is actually owned by the United States Forest Service and we do have a portion of the park that's more active recreation area uh but I think a lot of people are complaining about the the the horse droppings and other things on the trails worried about the trail itself actually says horses are not allowed but people ride them okay anyway I don't know that we're actually as you know, we aren't to enforce that. That's forest service property. It's forest service property. No, it's a forest service sign.

So, is he just there? Sorry. Is he riding him in Woodland or in the area behind Woodland or the area behind in the forest um on that uh east side of the road? You know, I can't answer where there have been riding the horses. I went out one day and saw two horses with one rider riding backwards on a horse and the one behind riding forwards. So I and they were right along the road, Woodland Road, uh in the ditch. I've not personally seen these horses out in other areas. We have had complaints that they are on the Forest Service trails and other trails. Uh but I I don't see them out a lot. I'm not really looking for them perhaps. Was this start up again?

Doesn't the horse droppings in town violate the city's nuisance law? Pardon? I believe the droppings in town violates the town's nuisance law. Uh I suspect that there would probably be some requirement to make sure that you're keeping uh those things picked up. I see a lot of people picking up after their dogs and and other things, but I suspect that that probably is accurate. Do we have any feedback from either business around it?

I've not heard of any. I don't know. Jeremiah didn't bring any of that to my attention. I would compliment the u the actually the owner, the applicant for the cleanliness of the business. It looks nice. I think uh Commissioner Wesley just mentioned, you know, it does look nice. It's attractive. They've done a lot of work out there. Um you know, it's that's a very positive thing. Um but the uh but the horses uh being on that small property is really not appropriate from Well, we can't override the United States Forest Service anyways. Chairman, that has nothing to do with the application. Yeah. I believe the applicant is here if you'd like to call in. Let's hold up our discussion right now. Are you the applicant? Yes, I am. Do you want to address the commission? Absolutely. Okay. I'd love to.

So, my name is Todd and uh we are as always adventurers. Um, I can tell you that uh we have uh totally eliminated crack addicts, meth addicts, the people that are going on over at this Zoe's Adventures, which uh you do all know what's going on prior to me being on that property, right? So, it's a vacant property that was happening over there, right? We all know that, right? vacant property for eight years. Okay.

We took that property, invested $60,000 to improve that property. Not only did we improve that property, but we have uh painted these properties down the street, which improved Pinetop. So, what I want to tell you today is that uh we give autistic kids rides in the back. We give um an incredible uh value to the city of Pinetop. Okay. Um I want to be a part of the the business community of Pinetop. There's no doubt. Okay. So, uh what I can tell you today is that uh the horses that are involved there, we are we have a uh we have a uh uh what what can I say? We had another evaluation of the property. It is 0.88 acres, right? So we had another uh valuation of that property at 0.945 acres. So we are less than or round pin that is there now half that size and that's what the issue is right. We want a permit um to um have horses there. Two horses on that property. Um we have I I cannot uh say this enough that we have uh improved that property beyond belief. So first thing I want to ask all all the uh the council here is that did you see the property before we started?

Yes.

Okay. It was horrible. It was vacant. We had crack addicts. We had meth addicts. We have people that were in trailers being beat by um people that were there saying, you know, uh I don't know. Um it was horrible. Okay. I rented the property from a gentleman that owns uh the Chevrons. He owns 17 businesses. Okay. Uh here. Um, and uh, not only does he own 17 businesses here, but he also own he also owns the Bell gas station that's down the street. It's a county-owned property. Um, he also owns property in uh, Hullbrook. He has not done nothing to improve this property in Pinetown. I have invested $60,000 to improve this property to make this a very good business here. My intentions uh my intentions here I I'm sorry I'm very emotional about this because I've invested a lot of money here to make this a good property. Uh, everyone drives, everyone here on this council has driven by this property here and they have said it's a piece of crap. Okay, guys, everyone here knows that. So, I've improved this. Okay, I've I've invested my money, my time, my effort to make it to improve this for the town of Pinetop. Um, on top of that, I have painted the Chinese restaurant. I have painted the the property next to me. I I have painted the uh new place, the new Mexican food restaurant, Elcharo, next

to me. And I have made this an in uh I I you know, I've made this I I have improved this area. Okay. So, I have come to you today to ask you uh for a permit. I I have got I have paid for a I have paid for I'm sorry I have paid for a uh another evaluation on the property. You're you're saying per Jeremiah that is uh8 uh square ft which is under an acre and you're you're saying that um I need an acre. So I I have paid for another evaluation on the property. It is now uh per that evaluation of 0.945 acres. So we are just under an acre. So when you drive by every day, uh you will see that is half the size of my round pin. to get approved for um having horses on this property. I have been respectful. I have picked up horseshit, excuse me, on this property daily. I have had respectful people. I am a respectful person. I want to do business with this community of the town of Pinetop. Um, this is my life savings that I tell you today, period. I mean, I've invested every dollar I have to have this investment over here.

Um, it's that serious with me and I need Here's my question. Okay. Yes, sir. You're asking for us to approve you. Okay. I Yeah, but what are you doing with the US Forest Service? this won't approve you. Excuse me, sir. So, I knew that would come up.

So, I called the US uh service and I said, "Are we approved to have this investment?" I do not have a permit to do that. That's his question. Okay. So, what I've done is can I not rent horses and have these people ride on horse trails? They're horse trails, sir. I rent horses to ride on horse trails. I'm I'm not asking you that. No, you are. No, no, I'm not. What are you asking me, sir? What I'm asking you is Yes, sir. The US Forest Service is is giving or gave you a cease and desist order.

Okay. So, that's per Jeremiah reading. So, here's the deal. No, it's not a persist.

Okay. So, here's my answer to that. Okay. Am I not allowed to rent horses to ride on horse trails? Like, am I not allowed to ride or excuse me, am I like people rent boats here? Can they not uh can I not rent boats to have boats rent on lakes, right? Can I not have horses that I rent right on horse trails? Cuz that's what I do. I I understand, but you're you're really you're you're losing me, honestly. Okay. So, let me let me let me

Rick, let me let me ask Mr. Miller a question here. Yes, sir. If we would approve him, can we override the United States Forest Service? No. Here's the deal. Hold on. Hold on. Let me get his answer. Let me get his answer. No, it's not about It's So, so sir, it's not about force point of order here. We've got a question. Go for it. I'm sorry, sir. It's very emotional to me. Go ahead, sir. Mr. Chairman, yes, there is decorum that needs to be maintained in the in this room. Sir,

the planning and zoning commission is a volunteer commission appointed by the mayor and council to enforce the zoning codes of the town of Pinetop Lakes. Yes, sir. you're in violation of the zoning code because you started a operation and and no one is being critical of the way you've uh kept the property up and cleaned the property. That's not the issue. I think everybody is absolutely in agreement that you've done a very fine job of that. Yeah. Uh and we turned it we turned it into a meth croc homeless situation. I couldn't finish to a gentleman that let me finish answering the question, sir.

Finish it. Just real quick, it's not about that. The question tonight before the planning and zoning commission is, is your activity on this property an appropriate location for a public horse stable? You renting out horses? Yes, sir. For people to ride, sir. My understanding, and I don't have all the rules and regulations of the United States Forest Service, but in talking with uh the planning director Jeremiah, who you've had multiple Jeremiah has been totally against us. He was totally for us. Hold on. Hold on. The uh Let him finish. My understanding is that the Forest Service only issues a certain number of No, it's proper.

My god, sir. It's not about the Forest Service. It's about the Okay, listen. Sir, please. Okay. I I I I this is so emotional to me because guys on this council I have invested my life savings. Okay, that doesn't give you the right here we go please. Okay, I've invested my life savings over at Zoe's Adventures. Now you're talking about the Forest Service. Okay. Okay. We rent horses. Now, you're telling me that we can't have we can't rent horses to go on horse trails.

Is that what you're telling me, sir? That's not at all what I'm telling. No, no, no. That's not at all what I'm saying. We are on horse trails.

We are on horse trails. We rent horses. So, you're telling me the people all up here that rent boats can't go on lakes and rent boats? Is that what you're telling me? We rent horses to go on horse trails. That's what we do. That's what we do. Period. We're all about We are all about autistic kids, church groups. Okay. We all are about little kids coming to the backyard that want to ride our horses. We have two horses. There are 0.94 of acres. We are half the size of our round pen in front of our place that you see. Half the size, sir.

Mr. Chairman, may I uh interject here? Sir, thank you. We've heard um everything. We've we've heard about the pins and the size and that stuff. So, the size we we absolutely don't need to go there again. So, I'm looking at your permit here and um it doesn't really state what you're precisely looking to. Okay. So, the town of Pinetop has uh issued the town of Pinetop. Sir, I I won't be interrupted. We we we can we can have a conversation where you speak and then I speak, but I won't be interrupted. Do you understand? Do we agree? We agree.

Okay, great. Thank you. So, when I toured your facility, um I know you were talking about rides and and I'm seeing potential because I really do like the facility. Yeah, I I I met you there. You were very nice. And part the part that I'm having a hard time with is that no no steps were followed to comply with the requirements. You don't have a business license. Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You said Excuse me, sir. You just said we don't have a business license. We do. We we are Oh my god, sir. So So if

hold on, sir. We do have a business license. We've been licensed by the town of Pinetop to have horseback riding. That's number one. Two, we've kept the legal amount of horses that we have on the property, which is two. We are 0.94 short- which is half of the round pen that we have. We're like 12 We're like 1,200 square ft short of what we need. Now, here's what we do to the value of Pinetop. Is this M Mr. Todd? No, sir. I want to finish. Well, he hasn't finished. And maybe you get get my vote if you let him

have his his thought process get go through. I'm willing to listen. But the thing is, and let me tell you, and you don't know what I'm saying. Let him let him ask your questions. We have a time limit. Yeah, we do have a time limit. You're and and we made an agreement and you violated that agreement. So, my discussion with you is over. An applicant doesn't have a So, you can tell me that. So, what you want to go back with with the town of Pinetown guys, the council is you want to go back to meth, you want to go back to crack, you want to go back to traders.

No, let me finish. Can I finish, sir? You want to go back to crack meth. You want to go back to trailers being parked in the back there. You want to be going to people being beat by the woman that's there in the trailer. And now I've invested $60,000 into this community into this community. Not only have I invested in this community, but I have I have refurbished uh uh commercial properties here. And you're telling me now that, oh, be quiet. It's just the way it's going to be. I just want to tell you with all respect to you beautiful people cuz you are. I want to be a part of this community. I want to be a part of this community. I've invested my life savings to have two horses and I'm 0.94. I've had a I've had a separate survey done on the property. It's 0. You You originally said it's 0.88 square ft. No, you're wrong. It's 0.945. So, we are half the size of my round pin in over on my property. Okay, guys. We give autistic kids rights in the back. We give church groups. We give these very beautiful children that are in the back. And you're going to deny me of a permit that tells me I can't do that. And and we've taken a property that was uh cracked. First of all, was vacant. First of all, you've seen

Sir, I'm going to ask you hold up for a minute. Uh you're saying everything three or four times. I would like to have the commission ask you a few more questions. Please, please ask me these questions. You will answer those straight directly and don't repeat yourself. Please. Okay. Please. I'd like Oh, go ahead. I'd like to start with Derek. Derek have a couple. Um, what do you um

I'm sorry, guys. Honestly, it's my life savings here. Okay. I how can we we trust that if if the conditional use permit is issued after not obtaining it the first hand that you'll continue to follow the rules of the town.

Uh I've all I've always followed the rules. Rick Buffington uh the old um zoning guy he loves me. Uh Jeremiah I've been straight forward with Jeremiah. Um I all of you guys have toured the property. We are spoton. Uh we respect this community. Not only that is that uh when we do the horse trail rides is that we clean up everything that we do. Um I love this community. And how how are we going to prevent horses from getting hit again? Uh horses have the rideaway s on the busiest street and she hit it

town. I I know you know about that too. It's because horses have the right away. So here's what we are going to do is one secure our facility which we always have. What is your policy for that? Uh our policy for that is just make it secure. There has to be a policy or a procedure. What is your procedure? Um come visit us. I want that doesn't answer my question.

Well, okay. So here's what I want you to do. Seriously, come visit our facility. Please. Please look at us. I hired a blind guy. Okay? I mean I mean I've hired these people that are autistic, that are blind, that that want to work for me um and are beautiful people. I want to be a part of this community. Uh, I have invested in this community. I have painted the the the commercial buildings. I have received a grant from the town of Pinetop. $2,500. You know that, right, sir? You know that, right? Everybody knows that I have received a grant from the town of Pinetop. You guys know that, right? Do you guys know that?

How would I let me speak? You have I have received a $2500 grant from the town of Pintown here pretty quick. See what he gets. You know that, right? Does everybody know that in this case? Okay, look that up, sir. Contact Jeremiah. I'm just saying I want to be a part of this beautiful community. You said that five times, eight times. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to Yeah, this gun this this is recursive. Can we move on? Let's move on. I think we need any other maybe I'm going to ask a couple more question any question I asked my question directly and it was please okay any other question

I answered my I asked my question to Mr. Miller and he interrupted you. I never got the correct answer. Let's No. No. Hold on. Heard enough. You let us talk. Okay. Do it. Yes, sir. My question is Yes. If we would give you approval, sir. You still cannot operate because of the US national or the USFS. They gave out the permits. We are not writing on We are not writing on uh land that is under control of the United the Forest Service. We're not doing that. M Mr. Chairman, we're not doing that.

To answer uh commissioner's question here, we're not here worried about what the US Forest Service Yes. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Now, we're not here to enforce their rules or uh but we are here to address the zoning question and that is whether or not this property is a an appropriate location stable two horses on a commercial property on the a major arterial roadway where we have had a history of horses getting hit and our our report adequately says this is not the location. Oh, the horse getting hit

for the planning for for this particular use on this extremely busy uh arterial roadway. Uh we've had complaints about horses crossing the road. I don't know how it is going to end up with the woman who hit the horse, what kind of damage was done, what kind of injury was done to the horse, but I think that there's a this is a recipe for disaster on this particular property. He's he's he's he's made a lot of great improvements. There's no no sir sir the horse with all respect order tonight is very clear what we recommended is really what we're going to stand by and the commission needs to make a decision on that so sir

I just want to make a point that lady who hit this horse was drunk point of order point of order I'm asking for a motion I'll make a motion to deny I'll second okay it's and any further discussion from from the commission. Thank you. So I would tell you that that lady who hit our horse. All in favor raise your right hand. I