Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd rather go quietly into an award. Oh, go. Yes. You ever seen this? I mean, not like it's a big hassle or anything, but it's okay. You guys are Okay, roll call. We have enough to have a here. Gavl. Uh, pledge of allegiance, please. Gavlian to the flag of the United States of America

and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God. indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

This is a business meeting of the planning and zoning commission. The town values and welcomes public input. Please address the commission as a whole and not individual commission members. Do not address staff and members of the audience. Commission action on items brought up in call to the public is limited by the open meeting law. The commission may direct staff to study the matter and reschedule for further consideration at a later date. Items on the agenda will not be heard or discussed in the call to the public. Individuals are limited to three minutes. K. Consider approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of the planning and zoning commission held on February 27th, 2025. I have a motion.

Make a motion to approve the consent agenda. Second one.

We have a first. We have a second. Passed. All in favor? I eyes have it. New business. Public comment will be taken at the beginning of each agenda item after the subject has been announced by the chairman and explained by the staff. any citizen who wishes to speak one time for five minutes on each agenda item before or after the commission discussion. Questions from the commission members, however, may be directed to may be directed to staff or member of the public through the chairman at any time. D1 discussion and consideration regarding creating town code chapter 17000.4 45 land maintenance. Jeremiah.

Yes, sir. Thank you, Chairman Kinsley. I'm going to cut to the chase here tonight. This amendment proposed is being brought forward because there's a problem in town with maintenance on alleys, specifically eastway, westway. It's a continual nightmare code enforcement issue. And so, this is one mechanism that we can deal with this. Um, if people knew, I think what was at stake, those people might be here tonight. Uh, because what I'm asking for a recommendation for is to require adjacent property owners to maintain that alley to the to the to the center line. So, on Eastway and Westway, what's happening out there, I don't know if you guys have had a chance to look at it, it's pretty bad, especially on Eastway. And it doesn't matter. my prior code enforcement officer was out there cleaning up himself and it just comes back. It comes from the businesses. It comes from people that know that they can dump there.

Um it's not a maintained street. Uh it never will be. It doesn't meet the requirements. So this is one tool that we can utilize to prevent uh maybe not prevent but at least help clean it up. And those the complaints are coming from those people that are adjacent cuz they they see it but they're not required to do anything about it. This isn't new. Uh there's cities in down in the valley that do this. It's where I got the idea. And uh so that's kind of where I'm heading with this. Some of these are duplications, specifically like the requirements for signs and stuff. It's going to give my new code enforcement officer who are who I interviewed today more tools to be able to combat unsightly aesthetic issues within the town. So that's really the intent here tonight. Now, are those alleys utility rightaways?

They are actually public rightways. Okay. They're not public utilities ements to my knowledge. Okay.

But there there's they need to remain because there's properties back there that that's their sole access. So, it's kind of unfortunate. I don't know how that or why that occurred. Um I was looking at uh I think it was Chandler or Mesa they have like 165 miles. We have nothing close to that. So um but yeah it is a problem and uh if I don't get a recommendation or it doesn't get approved by council. I have an alternative solution in case um I don't think it's appropriate to discuss right now but if you guys want to call me and I I can tell you about it. If you have some concerns about this let me know. If you think that there's something I could do to make it better, let me know. Thank you.

Yes. So, you said there was dumping that occurs. Yes. And if that happens in a spot, I mean, obviously the homeowner that is adjacent to that didn't do that, but it's going to be their responsibility to then take away something that someone else dumped there. That is correct. Yeah. So, um, one way to combat that is if I was a homeowner there, I'd get some cameras, some game cameras, post them up, get some evidence, and, um, try to tackle it from the dumping perspective. But if they cannot, then yeah, I require them to maintain to the center line.

I got a question about the enforcement of this, kind of piggybacking what Allison said. So, let's just say hypothetically, we have a piece of trash. I got a camera. I get a license plate. We find out who does it. Then what happens? Well, they would be criminally responsible for dumping. So, a police complaint would be filed. It could be. Yes. And does the is there a fine associated with at the town or is it just completely like a police matter at that? Um, it would be handled administratively. It depends on which route they go really. If it's handled administratively through my office, it's going to go through title uh 1.20 I think it is. Or I kind same process for everything else.

If someone else dumps it there and then you're guys going to give me a ticket for it, but and then the burden of proof is on me to say it's not my trash. I don't know if I can really get behind that. Are you going to put up some signs down there, Jeremiah? Like dumping you know, no dumping, $100 fine or something like that. We could look at that. I just think there has to be a penalty.

Yeah. I think there's an inherent problem when you're turning the homeowner into a law enforcement agency because we're saying, "Hey, you are responsible to create to find evidence. You're responsible to charge this person by going down and getting the prosecutor to indict them." So, we're turning the homeowner into a police officer because if they don't, they get fined and charged. That's true. But this it is handled similarly throughout the state. It's uh when I was in the city at the city of Flax, they passed an ordinance that required businesses to plow a sidewalk. businesses hated it. But um it's a legitimate use of police power and um it does help with the issue and they're the ones that are complaining about the issue. So do something about it.

So it's not the homeowners that are doing some of them are. Yeah. Some are. Some of them are. Not all of them. It's actually mostly the businesses. And I I can't honestly answer that question with any level of certainty because I'm not sitting back there watching monitoring everybody, but it appears that a lot of it's coming from the actually. And then people just know that, you know, they don't want to go to the collection center. Boom. Go to Eastway and just drop it there. And is their property line the center of that? No. So they don't even own that property and they're going to be responsible for cleaning it up.

Yeah. You can't do that. So this this uh it's owned by whom? Who's the is it the town? Yeah, it's public. It's owned by the the town of Pinetop Lakeside. It's public right away. Um like I said, I don't know why it happened that way. It's a relic of lack of planning in the past. You can see that throughout town really with the stop sign or the roads not aligned. You can see it all over town. Could the police put up cameras and it could be a conversation that I have with the the chief. Yeah. I just see an inherent problem when you're putting that burden on a homeowner, right? Especially who doesn't even own the property. You don't own the property. You didn't dump the trash and you have to police it,

right? That's really not right. So, I think yeah, I'd agree that it's not it's it may not be fair, but this the alternative is maybe do nothing or um don't don't clean up the alleyway. Um maybe there's another solution, but um are those the only two alleyways? Where what other alleyways are there in town? Those are the only two as far as aware of. Okay. and along in Pinetop along both sides of uh White Mountain Boulevard. It's a public right away. Yes. It should be up to the town to take care of that.

The town should be the one finding the people that are doing the dumping. Why are you putting the responsibility on the homeowners? It's It's just not fair. The town's not out there and the homeowners are. The town has to get out there. Game cams. Yeah. If the homeowner can do it, the town can put a cam in. I I don't know. problem is, I don't know if you guys are aware, but we have budget constraints and so I know that a game camera is not terribly expensive and it's probably something we could we could work with. Um, yeah, maybe we can make the money back in fines. If there's a dumping fine, we can make it profitable. True. Maybe that's a solution. Go ahead and dump there, but you're going to get a ticket. Yeah.

It's going to cost. And every time you get a ticket gets more expensive. Yeah, like a speeding ticket, you know. So, I'll just say one of one of the alternatives that I was considering is, you know, working with the courts, finding people that have probation, that have community service, and getting them out there clean up. Then the cost is the cost of a roll off. Drop it off, have community service. That's a good idea. Take care of it. But I see your your point is that that as a band-aid, it's not a solution. Yeah. Right. We could get it cleaned up. Is it in bad shape right now?

Oh, it's bad. Take a drive back there. Especially on the East Way. On West. I went back there uh within the past month and there was um somebody I don't know there's they put a bed there and then homeless people came and pushed it over, slept on it, rained on it and everything is still there. Um there's trash up and down East way. It blows all over. It comes from Alberto's. It comes from the car wash. It comes from the hotels. A lot of it does. A lot of it comes from transates. I mean, it's just it's not a readily accessible area. So, I don't think there's much lease presence back there, if any at all. Yeah. And that road is in horrible shape. It's in really bad shape,

cuz we don't maintain it. Never have. So, it's a public rightway, but we don't maintain it. Right. It doesn't meet the requirements, statutory requirements as far as maintenance. uh specifically it's not paved and it doesn't have the rightway doesn't have adequate rightway so it'll never be a maintained street are people that are back there using automobiles through there some people access their homes I I I'm not familiar with the it's right behind the what is that super eight or whatever you know where the car wash is in Alberto's yeah it it runs the length of behind it runs the whole yeah on both sides oh it does okay uhhuh

up until about chevron in that area from um what is it uh Pinerest I think all the way up till Shervin. Could we add a stipulation that the U homeowner would not be responsible for pre-existing conditions as of the date the council adopts u this chapter? I would advise against that. How would we know it's there now? You'd have to go take a photo and you'd have to move. It's there. It is there now. And um I I would advise against that just because it defeats the purpose cuz then they'll just say it was already there. I'm not cleaning that up.

Well, if something like this would pass, I think the town should go in and do an initial cleaning, post signs, put up some game cans, and then everything should work out. You know what I mean? There's already statutes for illegal dumping, right? Yeah. Well, don't put the responsibility on the homeowners. That's what I said. The first thing That's what I said at the beginning. Get the town out there. Get Matt out there with some guys and clean it up. And or community service like Jeremiah said. Yeah. But you need to trucking it. Why rent a dumpster when we have trucks down? Because it's cheaper. A dumpster and community service is probably cost less than paying town employees to go there and do it.

What do we think, guys? Do we have any motions on wanting to pass this or

given that uh property ownership is is not the residence that we're we're speaking of? I'm not likely to make a motion.

Not either. So, I mean, you could choose to table it if if so be or you can recommend for denial. It's fine. It's not going to hurt my feelings. I'm just trying to find a solution to a problem that's out there. Have we studied other towns that have a similar situation and what they do in Oh, yeah. Um, so I I actually initially got this idea from our new intermager and then I I started looking at it and uh it it's already done throughout Arizona. It's not something brand new and and as you guys are aware, Arizona is a pretty property rights driven state. So, but the issue is that it's not their property.

It's not it's it's pretty hard to maintain everything municipality, even the size of Phoenix, let alone the size of Pinetop Lakeside. We don't have near as many, but we also don't have as many resources. So, we need to find some type of solution to this problem. I just want to say that it is a serious problem. Other cities, especially Phoenix, I'm very familiar with it. You know, mostly because mainly because of the double walls, people just throw stuff over anybody else come through, mattresses, box springs. Yeah. And in those areas, they use it for trash collection, too. And so, and trash collection, too. Yeah.

But now there though, the the city will come through about once a year and pick up the mattresses and box springs, the heavy stuff. And there's no location where a central dumpster could be placed to encourage people to use the dumpster as opposed to just tossing in. Yeah, there's probably some some locations that could be utilized for that. It's it it would have to be probably at the beginning though of the street. Um and then it's kind of a free-for-all if if if there's a dump there or if there's a a 20 yard roll off or whatever it is, people are going to utilize that. Yeah. Collection center. Yeah. Yeah.

So, would everyone like to table this for now until we come up with another solution? We won't meet the posting requirements for the next meeting. So, that's kind of hard to table it cuz um we could table it forever or something. I'll move to not recommend or recommend denial. I recommend I move to I recommend denial. I don't know the best way to phrase that, but um you know, all in favor to not recommend it to council. Yes. Yes. Okay. I move to not recommend it to council. And I second that. All in favor? I have it.

Would there not Can we still talk a little bit? Yeah, you can you can open it up discussion. I think would Would they? As long as it's on the topic. Yeah. Would there would there not be they would not be legally obligated a homeowner to take care how can how can you force somebody to take care of a piece of property that they don't own and and find them for not taking care of it? You're looking at some liability, I would think, for some lawsuits of from the homeowners in this regard possibly. But I'm telling you, it's done throughout the state all.

Yeah. Uhhuh. Actually, my husband used to live in Phoenix and he quartered an alley and like you were they would throw brush and debris and and they came every two weeks or whatever it was the city of Phoenix and pick that stuff up in the alleyway. Yeah. So, um the the proposed language is basically verbatim minus a few intrinsic details that town attorney didn't agree with uh code from city of Chandler. It's not something I dreamt up. My idea would be is our town go through there every other week or and clean up. There can't be that much there. Well, they're saying they don't have the capacity to do it for

they don't have the budget the budget or whatever this the resource are allocated for other things. I'd love to see signage at least out there saying no dumping. And I mean, I think the easy Well, if they can't afford to clean it up, they can't afford. Well, the the easy answer is put a camera. They don't cost that much from Cabelas or whatever. And then the police have and the police I mean, how hard is it when it's slow? You review the video and you like there's a license plate. Yeah. They plug it in their computer, the DMV, and they go give him a ticket or you see a neighbor. Yeah. It's probably a lot of the same people dumping. Absolutely. They just get used to it.

Yeah. So Jeremiah, that's what we should think about is see if we can get some cameras up there. Okay. Yeah. You know, then we have videographic evidence to to the police department. Absolutely. You have to put one at one end, one at the other end cuz you're going to have to see license plates. Know which way they're coming. With the price of cameras nowadays, that's super affordable. Yeah. I would just I would just put one in because I mean there's it there's only one way at least on Eastway into those. They dead end. Well, actually, maybe that's not true. The the south the south end dead ends and the north end connects to I'd put two in. Yeah. Well, regardless how many to put in. I mean, let's

what 40 bucks a piece? Something like that. They're not that expensive. And then the the cell plan for them as well. Comments from the public. Sure. I mean, I I've been listening. Oh, you go Derek Kavy. Um, I've been listening. Um, there's mention of a rolloff. Rolloff versus camera. I try to get a rolloff to clean my yard. It's 550 bucks. A camera. A camera's cheapest is 45. A good one's probably 150. Um, so there's your ticket them. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

Let's clean it up. So that's my two cents. So good deal. Thanks, Derek. Thank you. Well, before we adjourn, I just wanted to thank John and Allison for their service here on the planning and zoning. Thank you. And uh this will be their last meeting. And then Derek wasn't this meeting is our last meeting. We could just be out in there. See, now we're in the public so we I could come and give comments about Yes. Maybe still come every meet. So I you know, I didn't want an argument. All I wanted to do was thank you for that. You're welcome. You too, Alison. You're welcome.

Yeah, we appreciate you guys' service. It's incredible. We're uh very appreciative. Six 16 years between the two of you, I believe. That's crazy. That's a lot of experience. And you guys will be sorely missed. Good for you guys. Appreciate your service to the town of Pinetop Lakeside. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thanks very much. Hey, I make a motion to adjourn. Where was Larry McCormick tonight? Oh.