Town Council - Regular Meeting

sit here. Just tell me where it's under uh what is the whatever where our agendas are the G. Yeah, the big G. That's under the G. I leave that alone. [clears throat] I'm just going to go ahead and talk. I'm going to start talking about zoning. We'll just do

So, um, so we're here tonight. We got Rebecca Vance here with us who helped us, uh, write [clears throat] this overlay ordinance to kind of go over this with council, but just a little bit of background. Um we have had just on the planning side of this uh y'all got a list there about 29 different public meetings uh dealing with village hills. Um so what does that mean? Well, you're kind of in the last phase. This is what we call an overlay district. um meaning that it sets the standards uh above and beyond what your zoning ordinance is and applies them and it will be able to live on through any changes to UDO and changes to an underlying area underneath the um overlay because things will change from neighborhood commercial to residential to you know area business or whatever the stuff moving forward is called. So, if once y'all have this meeting, whatever direction we take out of tonight as far as this ordinance go, there's a couple things that may happen. Y'all may decide it needs to change enough it goes back to planning commission. It may be a minor change that y'all handle through y'all's reading processes, which is three. So, it's three more public meetings on top of this for y'all to adopt the ordinance. Um, y'all do not at your level have a public hearing, but you have public meetings that people can come and speak three minutes at their public comment section. A public hearing to actually get placed into the record of the ordinance.

That's only citizens at that three minutes. It's only citizens at that point. Everybody else had their chance to at the public hearing. Public hearings,

right? Um once y'all adopt this and what will happen once you adopt this is we will go through a formal reszoning process and we will reszone everything underneath it from FRD to some kind of residential neighborhood commercial type area just to kind of get it to a base level and then we will apply the overlay on top and the overlay will will be the additional guiding documents that have to happen and everything underneath will have stuff like if it's a group development has different paths of approval versus a major subdivision versus minor subdivision, you know, versus a commercial structure. And so that will be probably another four to six months of reading in the resonings. Uh but you won't be able to read in the reszoning until you get this overlay read in.

And the reasonings at the bottom are like if something happens to this, that's what they revert to. That's correct. That's correct. Otherwise, the overlay would hold. Y and then the school will not be reszone, correct? It'll always be government. Are you going to put it something underneath that? Well, we we will put something underneath everything and we we will actually modify probably our future land use map. Okay. Based on it. So, it's all I mean, you've got a couple protections when you do something like this. You got your future land use map gets modified. You got your reszonings, you got your overlay, and then long range plan. So,

yeah, that's basically it. And then you even have more protection like any kind of infrastructure development agreement you enter into. Uh we have the ability when we transfer property place deed restrictions on it. So that's an that's a higher level that you get to actually operate like an individual property owner at that point outside of your normal zoning things. Uh so this would be we were just talking earlier. So what you think about it is everybody that's not encompassed in some of those other control mechanisms that we have and there'll be things that's not encompassed in that. This will now become the minimal standard that they have to meet their underlying district and then this overlay on top of it.

Once that's built out and it rolls back over to our planning department, then our planning department is enforcing the overlay as well as the underlying. That's correct. Okay. That's correct. I will I'm going to turn it over to Rebecca and uh [clears throat] Well, I was here. I can't believe it was November was the last time I was here. That's just crazy. Um Oh, we had Thanksgiving and Christmas. I know it's all kind of a a blur. [snorts] So, I uh you guys have my PowerPoint. So, I will do you want me to go through that a little bit for you with you and

talk through it? as far as what what in it is for and that is is fine with me. Um but what I'm looking at is I'm concerned you're talking about the mixed use with business on the bottom, living on top in your in the commercial portion of the property uh which is just up at the front there. You can that is allowed. You could have commercial on the bottom and residential on the top. So in the small piece of the property if I find it that is base is clean. Bases clean. Yeah. Where am I? Upper left. Right.

Right there. This portion here. So this that's that's your commercial. You could you could have commercial on the bottom and residential on top. So that's just in this area. That's not all.

Right. Right. Well, my only concern was that we see um a lot of this commercial on the bottom living on top that goes unused like in Clemson. Um I'm sure some in Anderson too, but I know that that to me that's something that I don't know. I mean, I would prefer having, you know, businesses on both levels of sale. I think the market will probably, you know, decide whether residential on top would work for you. That's why I'm asking because the market is not bearing, you know, to me it's not bearing out in other towns for us to

this is it's not a it's not a requirement. It's just that they do have the opportunity if the market, you know, demand is there and they think that'll work, then they can do that.

They can do that. So, it's just an opportunity. So, I think we with the overlay district, we've had several meetings with the planning commission. We've gone through, we tried to mirror some of your um your other overlay districts that you have. Uh as I think I mentioned at the last meeting, I don't know if all you guys were here because you weren't all council members at that point. I commend you guys for doing these small area plans and then turning that into design overlay districts because technically, you know, we have we have plans and they're pretty and we think it's great and we have developers who say they're going to do this or don't say that they're going to do that. But unless there are specific things in your ordinances that require them and speak to each thing, um you might not get that. I call it like the ingredients that you're baking a cake and what are the ingredients and the things that are in this ordinance are the uh the ingredients things like massing requirements and porch requirements and monotony code requirements and things like that um to make sure that what they're building actually isn't just a pretty picture that when they build it, whoever builds it has to meet certain standards. Um when you look at the use standards, uh we went through and tried to make it to where uh with the commercial that it's neighborhood commercial uses that they can if they want to put residential on top. Um for the residential went through and tried to give a lot of housing options for people um so that on they want to they can build town homes, they can build cottage homes and they can build single family residential. The single family residential has to be um currently 6,000 square feet uh lots. If I'm wrong, make sure might help if [clears throat] I put these on. Um

what was the house? Was there any building size requirements on those? I thought there was a minimum building size on those lots as well as lot size. There is not. It's just four units per acre.

But I mean the houses themselves like how many square foot? Now, normally, um, you, uh, don't, uh, put a minimum on the on the actual square footage for the the houses unless you're the, you know, the actual property owner, the builder. Um, as a, as a community, it's hard for you to come, you know, someone might want 2100, someone might want 18. And if you're looking at the cottage homes are going to be smaller, below, 1500 square foot houses. The town homes are going to be, you know, two or two stories. Your yours allows for two stories. Two or three two stories. Um, so they're going to have a limited size. And then your single family, if you've got 60 by 100 lots, that's going to kind of give you a bigger house because you've got that wide frontage. That 60 is going to allow you to have frontages of of houses that are wider.

So, I just thought our current zoning or it was in the UDO was 600 square foot minimum. It's in our UN infill infill lot. Infill lot ordinance. Okay. We have a th00and square foot minimum. That's what it is. That's what it is. Owen's got it.

So, when I look at, you know, one of the things that was stated was that you're wanting to keep this with the the historic architect architecture of the of the town. Um, these stack flats and apartments don't give me anything historic. It gives me too much modern. Um it it looks like oh we're getting ready to be a little downtown gringle and and you know when I look at that that's not really appealing to me. Another thing is what are we doing for the people you talking about? This is a area this is a historic area but nobody who has lived in that area is going to be able to afford to build a house over there. So what are we doing for what are we looking at as far as putting something in that's affordable?

So the idea behind having different housing options is so that there are steps you know staggered levels of affordability. If you want true affordable housing, I think if we're discussing kind of uh houses for the average median income and below that, then that's something that the town would need to look at working with the builder since you do own some of the property, working with them to make sure that that's uh you know, a portion of it is those types of housing. But that's not so when you look at that's not something necessarily that overlay district would legislate. That's something you could put in your zoning ordinance to allow inclusionary zoning to where you have a requirement of a certain percentage of for it to be at AMI or you can put that in your uh development agreement with them that you're, you know, working with the developer to determine how many units you want to be technically at that AMI. And AMI is going to be different for this area than it is for Charleston or Columbia or even downtown Greenville. So, you'd have to work to figure out what that is. for this. We're looking at the usages and we're looking at what the the actual buildings look like. Allowing you to have different uses, uh, allowing you to have those different kinds of residential uses hopefully puts in some of that affordability. Um, [clears throat] but if you want to actually require it, that's not something you would do in an overlay district. That's in a a zoning district or in a development agreement or in the PD or something that you do with them.

So, these lots aren't going to be like Somebody couldn't come in and say buy three lots privately. It has to go through a developer. Is that what this is?

No. So, so this operates just like the regular zoning. In this particular case, you talking about redevelopment. You just have to have [clears throat] two large properties that own probably 80% of the property in here. So, if you come in and you you just have three lots or maybe it's your lot, right? [cough] So you can you [clears throat] can build whatever is is allowed between district and the overlay in there. You just you have to build those standards. Um you the the hardest thing is creating the walkability in here. when you have those singled out lots, um you there's going [clears throat] to be some other things we have to do like you're not asking a single home buyer or home builder, I own my own lot, build my own house. They're not they're typically not going to build the sidewalks and everything else in there.

That's one of the reasons why you get them grouped together and get them into a common builder that you have a little more control over,

but you may have to come in as a city and start putting in those missing pieces in there. Um, but they would be able to build whatever was in there. If they were in an area that say it was neighborhood commercial and it allowed for cottages and they had two lots, then they most certainly could go through the process of trying to put, you know, whatever the cottage density was on those two lots. Um, are they partner with with the larger developers in there? And I think you'll see some of that go. And and as far as affordable housing, um, you know, the You see people try to tackle affordable housing inside of zoning ordinances all the time. They typically do it by saying if you do affordable housing will give you this much density bonus because the largest driving factor in the cost of a house right now is the public infrastructure. And by that we you'll hear us talk about sometimes the um amount of feet that we have per pipe versus the amount of customers per feet. So if you've got a 60 by 100 lot and you got 60 feet of sewer line, particularly 60 feet of 8 inch ductal iron sewer line, just multiply that 8 in [laughter] 60 ft, multiply it by $175 and that's what it cost to lay that pipe. But if you if you have, you know, two units in that 60 ft, then you cut down the person that's living in that unit, burying that cost by 50%.

So, and just because you make it inexpensive doesn't mean that u somebody with more resources won't come in and buy you're not guaranteed that somebody with low income is necessarily going to leave it there. I mean, that they can somebody can buy it and flip it. we're still at the mercy of the market. Well, um, yes and no. So, when you when you do depending on how you restrict it, you you most certainly have a very good legal standing on making sure that it keeps moving through to um to somebody's AMI. You were talking about development corporation. They could most certainly do that and they could hold the deed deed restrictions on top of

that would be a good use that would be a good use of that. You often hear housing uh development corporations. Ringle County has a big housing development corporation. But then you have other things um in your zoning ordinance that especially when you have like stacked flats or apartments, you you actually can keep those for much longer time within [clears throat] that. And that's why you see so many larger cities going to requiring that that affordability in those type of units because they have more control for the life of those units.

So when you crap, I just forgot what I um what about people who are currently living in this area? How does how does this affect them? Are there any are are there any properties that that is is dead from the original owners? Are the owners still there? Yes. And how will this affect they they will continue living there? So if they decide that they want to build their own house. So what happens then?

They that that they would they would have to conform to the new zone. So it be just like any other non-conforming structure. Um, and they can choose to do that. So now the other thing I want to know if somebody buys one of these houses is there can they add on like later on if they want to add two rooms they can do that so they can. Okay. Yeah. Usually where that gets people is with the um lot coverage ratio. You know how you don't want someone to pave over the whole thing and make it all um impervious. But yeah, you can add on mother-in-law suites or Yeah,

we still have dual houses. Steve, when did they do Village Hills originally? Man, I think it's in the 70s top and the houses that are there were part of that development or it was strictly a mo mobile home development. Um, and when you said they're people who have been there originally, well, some of those homes are are I didn't I thought it was all mobile homes. I guess that So, it should have all been been mobile manufactured homes. I I don't There's a couple homes in there that from our recollection should have never been built under cuz it was a

So, they weren't there when the mobile home manufactured home park was done. Yeah. And then they came in I think in the '9s and got built and under the ordinance that is this that time they should have never been allowed to build but they were able to build they they would just continue to they would actually they would just continue as a nonformity if they didn't meet um the code the the large majority structure that are there though uh unless they go to pull a permit or do anything else they're they're going teach home and sale. So, are are manufactured homes allowed?

Manufactured homes are not allowed in the town except in R4. Um, so they're R4, which is uh the brown color on the map. There's not a whole lot of R4. There's some up here off Greenville Street, but there'll be existing non-conforming use at that time. Yeah, there already existing non-conforming. Yeah. There's some down on Burl Street. Yeah. And they can apply for a variance. So if they Right. I mean, we've had some of those. Yeah.

Any existing structure that's in place on the whenever this is adopted, they're non-conforming, they're allowed to keep existing for forever and ever. Um when they if they go to rebuild or if their property is damaged, be belong beyond 50% which is probably your ordinance 51% then they would need to bring it up to any you know code changes. But that that that's building codes and everything at that point. I have a question about the stack flats and apartments.

Um and I understand you don't want it to the mass issue but the material changes every 30 ft. Some of these are starting to look like checkerboards and how do you do the mask and that's but not have it every 30 feet. I mean, I saw one invar I think and it's got dark blue, light blue, dark blue, light blue, you know, white. [laughter] I mean, I'm not even a fan of one all the different color blocks. It just um this is on your PowerPoint. Does that help you?

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm looking through the in the actual ordinance to figure out where didn't the developer agreement that you did out across the um Champions Village area, didn't you? Like every fourth house had to be different or something, David? So, our our group development requires that every it's either four three or four has to be a different a different facade.

Could we do something like that? So we have in there monotony code for the single family and for the town houses and the the cottage homes. So the monot means that you can't have similar houses or similar colors um you know within a certain distance of each other for the stack flats. Um I mean we can change 30 ft is the standard that I've seen in other ordinances. That's where I I got it from. How do you keep it from being check?

Well I mean ultimately any commercial commercial building and stack flats are going to be included in that has to be approved by your your staff. So and they're going to have these standards to go by. So they will have to look at it and say, "Yeah, this looks good." Or, "Yeah, this doesn't." Um, so we can make any um change to it we want to, but it'll have to go it'll have to be approved by the staff. I mean, then they'll prove everything down to the windows to the, you know, colors to the materials to all the all the things. Um, so the Do we have to have apartments? I'm condos. I don't want apartments. Well, you you don't know if anybody would actually build apartments. So,

but do we want to let them have that option because I think

then you're taking your affordability right out of when you can't get your density then then what you what you're going to end up [cough] is probably 60 by 100 lots through there or cottage homes or something. People I get people are scared of apartments or stack plaz are actually more of a condo product. Uh so it they they would not be on fe simple because they own the unit in the building but they would own the unit in the building. Um but apartments you know you we were talking you know the American dream this twocar garage threebedroom two bath came around after World War II and you know it used to be everybody lived in this. That's why you go to New York, Boston, Philadelphia. I mean, you know, you see a lot of dense dense living around there. Apartments kind of do the same thing. They start creating that affordability. Uh they they create that area where people can go back and forth where they don't have yards and things like that.

Do we have to have them? Yes, sir. You don't have to have them, you know. But you don't have affordability with affordability. You got a trade. It's a trade-off. Yeah. You can't argue limit. You know, one of the things that we we have already done was to limit how many unrelated people can live in an apartment and also we can limit like the how they look as far as height. I don't think we need to have anything over two stories.

Yeah, three is definitely out for me. mainly because I think that I don't know three three stories looks like you got the you know the house that the big bad wolf is going to blow down because it kind of goes now I'd rather see a a a wider floor plan for apartments so when you're looking at that you know say you want 200 units or you want 100 units or you want 50 units if you're wanting requiring it to only to be two stories and it's just going to take up more property.

Um, so three is about we talking with um some of the developers. Um, three is as high as they're going to go without having to put an elevator in it. So that's probably all you're going to get. We did 45 ft or three stories because for some of these newer apartments, they like to have 10 foot ceilings and different things like like that. So it might not be 35 um looking at it. So that's where we kind of came up with the 45 or three stories. They're not going to, as I mentioned, unless this is real money and there's a, you know, really big need for it, uh, they're not going to come in and put anything over three stories because the once you get into elevators that the construction's expensive and the maintenance is expensive. Okay.

Oh, yeah. Elevator to pay for the elevator. They want more stories. Um, yeah. I think looking at the three stories obviously you guys can can say too and at that point it's really I don't know that you would call that an apartment complex or stack flats it's really like two over twos um at that point that you used to have in u some older neighborhoods you two over two or three over three that sort of thing looking at a triplex or a quadriplex and those are are allowed in in your in this district also but not throughout the district only in certain zones that's the thing you've got it isolated in certain places it's not throughout depending on how it's developed, right?

Yeah. You know, when you think of the looking at um are you guys familiar with Shandon in Colia, right around the the college, the Shanden neighborhood. Um so Shannon's like you can go look at it on Monday. [laughter]

Yeah. Yes. Go through Shandon or Rosewood or any of those. They're all um probably built in the 20s or 30s neighborhoods, mostly brick. Uh but then it it's single family, but intermixed in those single families, you'll see a quadruplex or a duplex or a uh what's an apartment complex, but it's probably just like six units or eight units. You know, you walk in uh but they're all they're brick and they all kind of blend into the neighborhood. And that was done obviously there was a need for it. So, if you look at how a neighborhood organically kind of develops or or used to used to develop before we had all these requirements where everything had to look the same and be the same and and it developed with that in in place. And there's a a number of neighborhoods now as they're developing. There's a neighborhood in um Somerville, Goose Creek called KS Crossroads. Uh they're building uh duplexes or triplexes in a neighborhood, but if you don't pay attention when you drive by, you'd never know. They have front porches. They have uh you know, nice doors. They they have garages. You would never know if you weren't like, "Hey, what is that?" Um our friend Natalie, right across from her house, there's a a duplex. And I never like you got to pay attention because it's built with the same design standards um as a regular neighborhood. So you're getting I you know you go through and you're looking at their use obviously but most of the time unless the use is something terrible that we don't want like a a tattoo parlor or a strip club we care about what it looks like because the what it looks like is what creates the the community. The front porches, the sidewalks, the trees, the windows, um you know different materials, the the having the monotony code where they're not building the same thing over and over and over again. That's what kind of makes it look better. I don't I don't know what the point of all of that was of me just telling you that's kind of like organically that's how neighborhoods were developed to where it wasn't a pod of duplexes. They were just intermingled as as it came

about. So what do we need to do now? I had a question for you. That's right. Um the the um our our design standards for our downtown the green has a limit on the glass the visibility on the glass. I think it's 50%, isn't it? 50% Yeah. the windows. Yeah. So, the stack glass, do we specify that in here? I didn't see where we did the glass. You can put tint, but you just can't put mirror tint. Yeah. And even the tent had to be 50. I'm looking at this standard, David. This one, it said 50%.

Okay. for your commercial build businesses for the village green commercial% [snorts] let me see I'll look at it thank you so it might be the page before that it's on those um in the commercial areas you're asking for the same correct thank you there was something in there already and I'm sure you've got it I just I'm not seeing where it It's not on that pay. It was the glass had to be It's usually your um facade arrangement visibility.

Yeah. So it looks more open. You know if you walk by the commercial and they're all like those mirrored here. I can find it. Yeah. Yeah. In your um Yeah. In the commercial it has that looking at facade arrangement. And is that where it is? I think so. But let me not building design but it was like the you talking about transparency. Yeah. Yeah. Visibility cuz we talked about it for the oil mill development too. Architectural. Here we go. Number seven. Number seven.

Yeah. Commercial buildings must maintain at least 50% transparency on the uh ground floor front facade. Page six. Okay. Great. Thank you. just sorry. No, no, you're you know detail was me.

But those again those are the ingredients that make a a building look like a downtown building versus with a little door. Those are the ingredients that build you know certain buildings. And if you don't have you hate to be you want to be flexible and all all the things, but if you don't have those sort of specific requirements, then you're not going to get the buildings you you want because those are again the specific things that create buildings that look like downtown. You know, you want you want to walk by and be able to see into the building like you would a storefront, you know, right? Otherwise, it looks horrible. It's like a warehouse with a front door. Yeah.

Well, no matter what we do with this Adopting what you have before us today does not does not say that a builder or or developer does not have to adhere to what's already right there or whatever comes out of the UDA or whatever.

These are these are so you're going to have your underlying zoning district. So those requirements and then these requirements on top of that and those are the minimum requirements that they have to meet. So on top of all of that and then if you as he mentioned if you if you go in and do a development agreement those are going to be specific requirements maybe for infrastructure for for sidewalks for roads um things are in in there. And then if there's an HOA on top of that then they're going to have those requirements too. And if you own the property and you're selling it to someone in the deed, you can specifically restrict even more if you want to. So there are several layers of restrictions. The zoning districts the base. This overlay districts is the the next and but that's just the minimum. And then on top of that, you can put other requirements onto that too.

But this will roll right into the UDO. This is not this will be like this will be a separate separated area. So this will be one of your over you've got another overlay district I believe. one or two. This will just be in your zoning ordinance, another overlay district in there and and for this village hills hearing. So any property in there as if you know if they go to turn the property over or if they um do anything more than 50% then they'll have to adhere to these these standards. Can you talk a little bit about the color palette? Yeah, we um earth tones. spent a lot of time. They spent a lot of time on the earth tones. Yeah, they like made me strike some colors and everything.

Yeah, that was a long meeting. Terracotta red is interesting. Yeah, some for accent and others for

Yeah. So, the terracotta red is for accent walls, roof or or trim, not for the entire building. Um, and I'm happy, you know, that's obviously your preferences. We went through and tried to figure out like earthy tones. That's what everyone was kind of interested in. Nothing bright, nothing even we talked about black as just a, you know, trim color, not as any accent color on the walls or anything. Um, so we obviously it's your community, so you want to look at it and decide what you want to to be replicated over and over again. Um, that but we we spent some quality time on the colors. Yeah. Well, and it bothers me that everybody's gonna, you know, you're sitting here saying, "Y'all spent so much time on this and none of these people ain't even going to live there." So, it it just boggles my mind that you got a group of people who think they can tell everybody else how their their their structure should look. We should have a limit on that. It should just, you know, at some point you have to say, "Come on, y'all. Let's let the people who live there develop some." I might live there. And and and you know the other thing is that for we there's always a a hardship variance and there's always people can always apply for an exception because everything's going to have to be approved. That's the way this is set up, right? Everything has to be approved. So your um so once the design overlay district is in place, all of the residential properties will go to the the planning commission will have to go through the planning commission. All the commercial properties will be approved at staff level using all of these criteria. And if it comes out that there's, you know, some other colors that would work or some, you know, the definition of earth tone, that can be an interpretation or you can just amend the ordinance. I mean, you know, the the idea that we pass ordinances and that we're never going to touch them. It should always be living and breathing and you're never going to think of I mean, I think I'm sometimes some days

I'm pretty smart, but I'm not going to have thought of everything. We're not going to the planning commission, we're not going to have thought of something and developers will because they make money doing this and there's a lot of them and they sit around. They're they'll find something that you didn't think of and you're going to have to change the ordinance to be able to address. We tried to address everything. Um but you just never know. It'll be a living and breathing document. If if something comes up that you don't like, you guys can change it. I have one other question about the U. So step roof lines are encouraged. How much power is there in encourage? So

it [clears throat] says they're encouraged. That doesn't mean that I mean doesn't mean they're required. So I just wonder how you know how are we going to get any of them. Is that which which was that on the single? I don't I don't have that's on the stack glass. Step. Um you could say shell. I mean that shell is going to be the only thing that's going to be mandatory. Uh encourage is like may you know and and without actually reading that I mean I've read it but I don't remember off the top of my head but without seeing it again I couldn't tell you how. Well I mean I just as she says the developers are going to find everywhere they can cut the corner. So, I guess

we can change that to shale,

but you know, there are cases where where it's not going to work, where you're not going to want the step roof. The step roof is going to be great if you want to uh you know, try to create some where the where it looks two stories on the front and it's three on the back or it looks one story in the front. You want to create that. Um, but that I think that's part of the negotiate. We can change it to shall but you there may need to be a little flexibility in that that you know with other design some considerations that you can change it um or up to the discretion of the zoning administrator because you want to give that flexibility um and it's it's all a negotiation obviously when you're looking at these designs. So, it's important the staff members that you have in place that are that are looking at them because that's a that's another piece of the negotiation. If they say, "Well, we don't want to do that," you say, "Well, if you don't want to do that, then you're going to have to do X, Y, and Z, and you try to work that or or we want you to do this, and if you do this, we'll allow you to do X or Y." Um, but we can change that to SH. Um,

she's heard me say stuff, but this is part of that legislative history. You have all that stuff. We talk about spirit. That's exactly what you know. How do you how do you ensure that interpretation passed from somebody else that wasn't in this process now making the decisions? Yeah. Well, I just don't want it to be a constant fight with staff of, you know, every developer come says it says encouraged. It's cheaper for me to do this. I just and it just be a constant battle. I'd rather it be a negotiation rather than a battle where they're saying, "No, we the council and our will is for you to do it this way." Yeah,

I always like to say, well, this is my interpretation as the zoning administrator. If you'd like to appeal my interpretation, you can go to the board of zoning appeals. I can tell you your board of zoning appeals go signal whatever it is that a developer wants. Usually, I mean, I don't know your board of zoning appeals, but if they it's something of that nature, they're going to that's that's not they're not going to want to wait uh 30 days or 60 days to go to another meeting to try to get something approved. They'll try to work with you. Um, but we can change that to shall if I find it while we're [laughter] talking. Um,

I mean, I think that's I agree with Lynn in terms of the point of I mean, I think that I'd like to first go on the record of acknowledging that I thought the planning commission worked diligently and in a detailed manner to come up with the ordinance. I think they spent a lot a good good quality time and I think they closed as many developer loopholes as we could think of. Are there any other questions?

Nope. All right. He's very quiet. [laughter] There's a chicken. Put him to sleep. I move that we close this meeting. Do you make that motion or somebody has to make it? You just need to second. All in favor. Thank you. Okay. I'll find it. This is for the stacked flats, right?

Okay. Pan tones. You know what pan tones are? They're divine.