City Commission Meetings - Special Meeting

for the special special meeting for the  city commission meeting of Panama City   for November the 10th at 4:30 p.m. We're  going to start off with an opening prayer   by Father Alan Boyd, priest of St. John  the theologian Greek Orthodox Church,   followed by the Pledge of Allegiance led  by Commissioner Granger. Please rise. In peace, let us pray to the Lord.  Lord, have mercy. Oh God, our God,   you have adorned us with your image so that we  may grow in your likeness. Through King David,   you reminded us that the council of the Lord  stands forever. The plans of his heart from   generation to generation. You also taught your  wisdom to Solomon, through whom we are instructed.   Many plans are in a man's heart, but the council  of the Lord will stand. Look down even now,   O maker and creator, upon this city commission,  and grant these favored leaders wisdom and   understanding that they may glean guidance  from your will. Warm their hearts in love for   you and for the people in this city who depend  upon them. Guide them in the ways of beauty,   truth, and virtue, protecting their hearts from  all malevolence. Unite them in one mind and in   one heart. And let mutual selfless appreciation  abide in their midst. Bless them for the doing   of good and useful things. Grant them peace and  serenity, a unity of spirit and fruitful action   and all those things needful for the good of our  Panama City and for the honorable partnerships   needed for the rebuilding of our city marina.  And through the timeless wisdom from above,   bless our city with the flourishing that comes  when we follow your will. We pray to you,  

oh most merciful Lord our God, the God of every  compassion and consolation. Make your face to   shine upon us. For you know all our needs and  we have set our hope upon you. For you are the   God powerful in mercy and gracious in strength.  And to you are due all glory, honor and worship,   Father, Son, and Holy Spirit now and ever and to  the ages of ages. Amen. Amen. You'll join me in   the pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of  the United States of America and to the republic   for which it stands, one nation under God,  indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Mayor Branch here. Commissioner Granger  present. Commissioner Street here.   Commissioner Hughes here. Commissioner Lucas  present. Mayor you have forum. Thank you. Mr. Zimman. Yes. You ready? Yes. Meet structure.  Okay. You got your thing. You need to start   explaining it. I can. Okay, go for it. You want me  to start? Okay. Today is a special meeting of the   city commission. And if you'll notice on your  agenda, the agenda item is a discussion of the   downtown Marina Upland's development and ongoing  city Marina Partners LLC negotiations. And so what   that is the topic that will be discussed at this  special meeting of the city commission. Uh uh the   mayor has sent out a proposed meeting structure  on how we do that. That's already noticed and is  

there in the agenda and uh that has been sent  to the uh city commissioners and mayor if you   want to walk through kind of your thinking  about that and I think it'd be appropriate   to get everybody's input on it. Absolutely.  This is a print out uh at the front door. Um,   in business I take big problems and big decisions  and try to break them into small decisions. And   this was also an attempt at me trying to create  a a clear structure of this meeting where we have   talking points where the discussion moves forward  where there's clarity of our positions as elected   officials. Uh, clarity for staff, clarity for the  public, clarity for potential partners. um so they   understand what we're thinking and uh and so I've  proposed a structure with potential staff talking   points and our discussion points. There is topics.  So if you see it starts out with boat slip design,   boat slip construction, ship store financing,  boat slip management, marina supporting items,   upland development, partner discussion, and then  a potential summary. Each one of those sections   has a public comment section where we can get  a comment. oftentimes one of the hardest parts   appear when someone takes three minutes and has 42  different points that they're making in their talk   and we don't know how to bring that back into the  discussion. So my goal is to have a topic uh us   the staff discuss, we discuss, the public discuss.  Uh there's eight different public comment sections   in this. So potentially public comments could run  a little bit long. Feel free not to take if we do   adopt this, feel free that you don't have to take  three full minutes. Uh, but we're gonna I'm gonna   be nudging you to keep it on topic related  to the section that we're discussing. So, if   we're discussing boat slip design, please keep the  public comments related to your specific specific   concerns with with design. Um, and so that we  can keep the conversation moving forward. So,   I believe we have to adopt the structure u of the  meeting. Is that correct, Mr. Zimman? I think it'd  

be appropriate. Okay. So, I'm willing to entertain  a motion to adopt the meeting structure proposed.   Motion to adopt. A second. Any discussion?  Uh on the three minutes, if somebody asking   a question three, can we still answer them  so they sit back down with an answer? Yeah,   we may. I don't know if we should do it one at a  time. That might alleviate other people's concerns   so we don't get the same repetitive question over  and over again. So I like that. Um I'm I think   none of us want to be here for 42 hours. if we  want to have a a discussion, but the right length   and we get all the questions answered and that the  public hears our discussion on these topics. So,   my sleeping bag and pull right in case you  were um yeah, I I I don't really know. This   was just me trying to keep a conversation moving  forward. So, I'm up for ideas as we as we move   forward too. Any other discussion? Is the motion  for the entire slate all four pages? Um, yeah,   unless you see someone not worthy of talking  about or if you want to add something. This is   my just stab at kind of guessing what we should  be discussing chronologically even on Leo. Well,   is it the ship store? Wasn't that in the  in the RF? So, is that a separate item,   but it's included in some of the the built some of  the building? I don't know. Like the RF was docks,   lights, chip store, utilities, and chip store.  So, we're going to do that separate. It could   be because I don't know how to I've never built  a ship store and so I I don't know I don't know   how to do that either. And so, I think I'd love to  hear there might be great comments from the public   related to ship stores, okay? And you know, how  other cities do them or best practices I want to   hear. So, and we have to do this here cuz we can't  ask these questions here. This is this is the   best I can do with transparency and keeping it on  topic. So, this is what I'm trying to do. So, any   other discussion? Yeah. So, um I wish we' have had  this a lot sooner. I don't know why we got it at  

the last minute. I'm not trying to point fingers.  I'm saying I wish we'd have had this um you know,   a lot sooner than than the day the day of the  meeting. Yeah. Um so, some background, you know,   after we voted to have this meeting, I basically  didn't sleep for two days thinking about how to   run this meeting and keeping it moving forward. Um  I I sent a draft to Mr. Zimmerman on Wednesday. We   discussed it on Friday and um I added the ship  store today and so my apologies for not coming   up with this quicker, but that was kind of this is  my first marina uh building as a mayor and uh my   first uh special meeting. So I would prefer if we  took this and put it towards a workshop. This to   me seems more like workshop if that makes sense.  um where we're not or we're not necessarily voting   on anything and it's a uh it's a discussion back  and forth that allows for more time for the public   to to weigh in on things. Yeah. I don't know.  Yeah, I'm up for feedback. Maybe it should be   go through it and see what we get answered tonight  because in a workshop you can't take any action,   right? Correct. Correct. Yeah. I'm not saying  we're taking action, but if we see that we get   a lot of information from these guys. I don't  because I thought about that too. That's why   I made the motion on a meeting rather than a  workshop because we don't know what's going to   happen. I took this as yeah a workshop around  our beliefs of the marina. So I I I didn't I   mean I don't know if we should even be voting to  this to me is almost like a first hearing of our   opinions. The public hasn't had that. I don't know  what the name looks like, but I'm just saying we   originally had it slated as a workshop. I it was  my understanding we're moving it to a meeting in   the event that we wanted to take action tonight.  We could I think the uh mayor has presented with   us an organized way to have the discussion and to  have the ongoing input of the citizens as we go  

point by point. Um and um I like it. I think we  should move forward with it. Awesome. Any other   discussion? Please call the role. Commissioner  Granger. Yes. Commissioner Street. Yes.   Commissioner Hughes, yes. Commissioner Lucas, yes.  Mayor Branch, yes. Motion passes 5-0. Mr. Mayor,   I just want to point out uh we do have Miss  Santa Maria and Mr. Plinser joining us with   PFM financial adviserss as well as Miss Olivia  Schmidt is here from um the Integrity Group uh in   the audience should have any questions throughout  this uh this meeting tonight. Awesome. Please grab   a handout if you don't have one. This meeting will  make a lot more sense if you have one of these. I   believe they're at the front door. So just we want  to get started with boat slips. So the first topic   is boat slips. Um confirm the boat slip design  timeline. Mr. Zimmerman. Yes. Under the uh first   item it's status and timeline excuse me for the  design drawings. And there's um and everyone   should have the uh proposed meeting structure as  well as a CNP term sheet comparisons along with   uh term sheets. I think it's 1 through five just  just to know that it's out there for you if you're   interested in in having that. And also what was  attached to the agenda and is there online is   um as there's a link to a variety of documents  maybe uh thank you maybe 15 documents and but it   gives the history of the uh RFP that first there  was an unsolicited proposal then we went through   a request for proposal we then uh selected CMP  and it kind of goes through the history there   u as well as the term sheets. The term sheets that  you are holding are substantially almost the same  

as what was attached to the agenda. Just a few  tweaks. You'll see some language that's in red and   there's I think three different sentences, three  different things that were changed. That's what's   different than what was attached. Now on the boat  slip design there are two for now I'll talk about   two phases to the project and the first phase is  the 50 slips and that is first phase because uh we   have what's known as a permit exemption under the  uh rules and um the the uh city can obtain a 50   slip exemption without a permit after a disaster  and CMP was involved and they uh helped the city   apply and we obtained that exemption. So the 50  slips once it's designed it can be constructed. Uh   so the timeline for that is that of uh I think it  was 3 months ago the city confirmed that it wanted   maybe two months it wanted St. Joe to do the  design work and so July 18th Mr. July 18th so the   middle of December the design should be completed  for the 50 slips that would then so then the city   uh would have the design and construction could  commence whenever the city is ready after the   start of the year uh 2026. The rest of the design  which would be for the entire 200 slip more or   less marina would be completed midFebruary uh  end of February time frame. So that's and at  

that point the city would be able to submit for a  permit for the entire permit I mean entire marina   assuming you like the we there is a conceptual  design that's already been uh approved by the city   commission and assuming that that's what you want  and you sign off on the final design then you'd   submit for a permit permitting uh at anywhere  from a year to 18 months, maybe a little bit less,   maybe a little bit longer, but it takes a while  to get the permit for the uh the entire 200 slips. So, that's the update as far as the timeline on  design. Awesome. So in my head just as a point   of discussion between the board um and I've again  never built a marina but I've tried to do things   incrementally in real estate and in software  um the so just kind of confirming the fastest   anyone could we have not received design and the  fastest anyone could build would be mid December.   So that's one point, but I would even say that  we potentially might even want to look to get the   first 50 slips built to see what rents to even  know what we want to build for the rest of the   marina. We may find that the marina needs bigger  slips or smaller slips and we're and the more you   guess is is it locks you into a decision. So I I  am I'm interested if there's any you know stomach   for us putting pause at least for two months for  three months whatever it may be to ensure that   those slips are designed what the market needs  unrelated to the 50 the remaining 200. So your   question is should we pause the design after  the 50 for until they're rented or till we see   a threshold to make another decision. Okay. One  of the reasons why and and I'm open to any that  

the board decides, but I I do want to point one of  the reasons why we selected St. Joe to be a part   of the design process is they're already operating  marinas and so and they have marinas in the local   area. So they kind of knew the more nuanced of  what the market demand was um so that we could   actually start start designing it towards that.  Now does that mean it goes all the way through   the 200 slips? I I you know I don't know. I  don't think we're going to be constructing,   you know, 200 slips immediately. I think there's  a step to astep process. Um, so I mean I I could   go either way on that one as a result of having  somebody that has some market analysis themselves,   but you know, it's a good point like do you know  what you need until you know what you need? So did   the 450 cover all the design? Mhm. I think it is  it did and I think the estimate is I think there's   about 90 in the west basin and 110 uh in the east  basin uh or or vice versa. So keep in mind I think   that that might be a more appropriate split.  Maybe just do the west basin which is the one   that St. Joe has indicated they'd like to see done  first because it's near the hotel uh and the um   you know in the restaurant but and I'm sure it's  all connected in some way with all the necessary   infrastructure. So an idea would be to to do the  90 maybe and then do east and west basin and that   was that was a process we had talked about at one  point in time. Well, and I'm not saying right now   we have to decide on exact thing is I think it'd  be interesting to know when people build marinas   is there how how is the incremental approach  actually happen? Is there a time where you   reassess what's renting to then design the rest  of them? And that's what I would be I don't even   know that cuz I haven't we none of us well I have  not been briefed on how maras traditionally get   built and there's no handbook on how to build  a marina. Uh, and so I would be interested if   partners I'd be willing to entertain if partners  had had that those those best practices when they   built marinas. So not looking necessarily for  a resolution. I would say not slowing down the  

design because that's why we're waiting till  December. Sure. Definitely not the fifth one.   That's not the fifth. I know. But what I'm saying  is um get it done and it's done no matter what.   We're already paid for it. Yeah. Um and that way  we have that and we have a concept. That's the   one they would follow. Is that right guys? The  concept for I think y'all voted on. Is that the   one that they would go right? Yeah. Okay. I mean  if you think about it I mean there is a process   that we follow that has involved public feedback  and picking each one of those things but there   is an element to this that is determined by what  the market demands to. So um what the best mix of   that is I mean I can see a phasing approach that  I mean one of the things that I'm most focused   on is that we start construction in December. As  soon as we are able to actually build something   we build something like that's that's the biggest  thing that I care the most about boats. Um I think   I don't think that the market is going to shift  drastically in the next 5 years. Um, I don't even   think it's going to shift drastically in the  next 10. Um, I think that uh what what we've   heard before out of some of the folks that um that  that do build these kinds of things is that you   build big and then because you can put a smaller  boat inside of a bigger wet slip. Um, but if you   have a 40ft boat and you only have two 40ft slots,  then they have to go somewhere else. Makes sense.   But a 20ft boat can fit inside of a 40ft w let's  so for me I don't I really would rather not pause   on anything if we won't have to and and I'd rather  uh you move forward as quickly as possible. Yeah,   I like it. Any questions from the public related  to the boat slip designs and the information   you've heard so far? Yes, sir. Come on up. Just  come up to the mic. Yes, sir. Do we have anybody  

who's built marina? Maybe a few. Maybe a few. Am  I built marina manageable? Yes, sir. Please state   when you get up here, state your name and your  address and just keep it at 3 minutes related   to boat slip design. Uh Chris Mills, 118 North  Clear Drive. I am a marine surveyor, so I have   quite a bit of experience with boating and marinas  and the like. I think I I would like to go back   and see basically the old design what it looked  like so that we can see what we might need to do   in terms of size of slips. How many size do we  want? A bunch of 20footers in there. How many   20 footers? How many 30footers? How many 40footers  if we design it for 40footers? Um we're not going   to have very many slips. We're not going to have a  good approach to get into those slips. So, I guess   I think the starting point would be to see a what  was there because we all kind of remember what was   there and then b a plan for what 50 slips would  look like and what 180 slips would like look like.   I think that would be the best starting point for  this. Interesting. Thank you. Anyone else relate   to boat slip design? Chair, can you give him one  of my cards? Thank you. Anyone else from boat slip   design? I know this is a weird formatted meeting,  but we're trying to Next we're going to talk   about boat slip construction. Uh just as a maybe a  little wrap on that. Sure. Is that it sounds like   um that this is Were you going on to boat slip  construction? Okay. Just to do a wrap on boat slip   design. It sounds like we proceed as we are which  is the 50 slip soon as possible. But we could ask   uh PFM as far as market analysis as far as what  they think is going on in the market. We could   ask CMP what they think and also St. Joe because  St. Joe is also a marina operator and get their  

input between now and the December meeting and uh  and also ask St. Joe about if if you know get the   50 slips done, what kind of tweaking uh could they  does it make sense to pause any before the final?   Does that make sense? Is that okay with everybody?  Okay, thank you questions. Yes, ma'am. Come on up. Hi, my name is Chris Moser and I managed the city  in St. Andrews Marinas for about 10 years about 20   years ago. Um, I just would like to see those 50  slips in the context of that entire side. And I   get that St. Joe needs slips there. Um, they can't  have everyone hanging out on that little floating   dock. Um, and we had really nice slips there. But  how those 50 slips fit in with that um if you just   do the uh west side um with the entire design um  there used to be around 240 slips but 60 of them   were the hanging slips and they were for boats  25 to 28 max 28 so that was set you know 60 slips   that um there won't be anything like that down  there now so they will be bigger slips um but uh   just look at how that fits into the entire context  of that design when you pull out that floating   dock and design that entire side. Um, I am  all for anything happening down there. Um,   the big thing is, and I think they've learned  that at St. Andrews, they underplanned power. So,   they planned for the 50 slips and then they had  to backtrack. My understanding is, and reorder,   which is understandable because they've promised  more than 50. So, they needed more power. So,   let's avoid that and uh just move forward. I  applaud you for all your effort. Thank you.   Anyone else with boat slip design before we move  on to the next item? If we could if we could,  

if you don't mind. Sure. That's what it That's  what it looked like. Yeah. If we could Sir,   that's what it looked like. You asked about  what it looked like. Yes. If we could repost   um in some way, maybe a copy sent to us of what  what 50 slips would be, the 90 and the 120 that   you guys mentioned. So basically the the east  basin, west basin or north basin, south basin,   I don't remember what it's called, but anyway, so  that we can clearly show what the 50 is and then   what the rest is. So I know that that concept  exists someplace. So yeah, and I think what   I just heard would was to look at all 200 at  one time to do that full design because of the   utilities and everything. So we don't start over  on that. That's a good point. Um so best practice   would be to to design the entire 200 um and then  phase perhaps the building um starting of course   with the with the 50 that peritted. So just go  yeah just for clarity when you said concept 4   that was actually for the east basin. Okay. Um  I'm it's okay. I just I was thinking through that   too. The only small change um and uh was kind of  down near the boat ramp uh sorry the a fuel dock   is those four slips will be gone because they'll  kind of expand the fueling operation right there   trying to figure trying to get the east west basin  design right now. So thank you Cody. Any other   questions or comments about boat slip design? All  right let's move on to boat slip construction. Mr. uh the questions uh there is you know who  constructs the boat slips under what structure and   what approach to phasing and cost. So what is laid  out here in the staff presentation is a discussion  

of of two approaches uh which is option A which  is a city-led le approach and option B is a CMPled   approach and under the uh city-led approach if  the city were to construct this project it would   take the design work for the 50 slips prepare bid  specifications, bid it out and um and then award a   construction contract. I think funding comes later  in this discussion, but that's the process of   assuming you have your funding lined up as far as  how the city would go about doing the 50 slips and   oh, and it says here that there is a possibility  for funding. You could use the truest loan. The   city presently has a $150 million loan that is a  kind of a cash flow loan. As it builds projects   that are FEMA funded, it then gets reimbursed uh  those money. They reimburse the loan or they pay   that off as the money comes in um from FEMA.  they could they could uh go and get permission   from Truis Bank to use a portion of that loan. Uh  and I'm just going to use a round number. I don't   know how accurate, but $3 millionish for for doing  the maybe the uh 50 slips. Then that loan is paid   off in two years. So, it's an interim financing.  It's not the permanent financing that you would   ultimately do. There's also, and I believe, yes,  Olivia is here, our FEMA consultant, u, there's a   possibility of being able to write an alternate  scope for the $5.5 million FEMA grant that we  

are planning on using on the marina the uh, al so  that way you would you would use the truest loan,   but then you would pay it back as soon as the FEMA  money came in. some it depends on where the the   uh 50 slips are as far as whether they're in the  footprint of a portion of the overall of what used   to be there. Uh but you might have to go through  EHP which is a longer process. So that may work,   it may not work. It all depends on would have to  have Olivia look at that and go through that. But   that's a idea to talk about is impossible. Yeah.  even look at now I should have had financing   before boats with construction because that ties  into the who builds it. So, let's talk if we don't   mind, let's talk about financing it. What What do  we have a stomach for? Uh, do we want to have um,   you know, do we want to borrow money? Do we want  to have a partner front the money for the building   of the slips? How do we want to pay for the slips?  Can I ask a I'd love to ask a question to Olivia   if she's willing to come up? Yeah, I'm going to  ask you a question. So, this was the first time   that I gotten this. Can you just give your name  and title so people know who Olivia Schmidt,   uh, the integrity group? So this was the first  time that I like, you know, I mean, you look at   things a thousand times and you look at them new  time, you start looking at it fresh set. Can the   FEMA proceeds be used for the ones that we've  allocated to the the marina be used for these   first 50 slips? And if so, does it trigger EP and  all that stuff? I'm just trying to understand. Um,   potentially it would. I I mean, we'd have to  have more details. um a NEPA 106 uh environmental   assessment requires um or an exemption requires  less than 20% change of footprint or impact in   the environment. Um so if you were to widen shrink  anything that would cause more than 20% impact on  

the current environment, then it would probably  trigger a NEPA 106 full environmental assessment.   even if you have a 404 permit waiver through  USACE or anything else uh for through D,   it doesn't necessarily um give you the NEPA  exemption. So um how long would it take us to   find that specific answer to find out if you get  the exemption? Yeah, pretty fast. The exemption   paperwork's pretty small. Um we could send in  exemption paperwork to see. The issue would be   that you would have to have pretty significant  plans. Um, okay. Because they, you know,   when you go to put a building in, you have to have  full schematic design up to 90 95% before they'll   even entertain it. Um, so, you know, I don't know  what the schematics are on slips or anything like   that, but if you're running fuel or if you have  utilities or anything like that, all of that would   have to be drawn out and included in those plans  before they would evaluate it for exemption. Um,   but the exemption paperwork's pretty quick and  they pretty much can tell pretty fast if you're   going to qualify for an exemption. So, if we were  to spend Okay, so we're kind of This is why it's   all hard cuz everything's so tied together. Would  it be easier, faster to spend the FEMA allocation   of $5 million for things that are existing like  sidewalks and railings or the slips? Um, if you're   trying to avoid environmental assessments, yeah,  doing something that's a replacement of something   that's already pre-existing. Um, but I will say  this, um, and this is how nitpicky they are, if   you go from a 4ft sidewalk to a 5ft sidewalk to be  ADA compliant, you will have to do a environmental   assessment because that's more than 20% of an  increase. So, are you saying that we may have   to do environmental assessment regardless? Yes,  but you'd be on a sidewalk that doesn't currently   exist versus 50 slips that we're trying to get in  now. Mhm. So you you could wait. We wouldn't tie   into what's behind uh Indigo or is that and is  that 5T? So So just just for the for the public,  

if I could just explain a little bit why this  process So the EP process is what's created so   much lag in our FEMA funding cycles. So like  anytime we've gone and changed anything MLK or   or M theater, you name it, it creates a longer  time because it goes through this historic this   environmental historic preservation process. So  whenever we can avoid that, we try to avoid it.   But it sounds like in this case, regardless of  whether we do upland improvements or the slips,   there is the potential that EHP is going to be  involved in it. Yeah. Anytime you build anything   with federal money, you run the risk of having  to do an envir a NEPA environmental assessment.   So if we had slips designed though, we would  have something to be able to go submit um for   that. Whereas right now we don't have design for  sidewalks and things like that. So the faster   thing for us to at least propose to EHP would be  the slips because it's the only thing that's on a   schedule for delivery with Yeah. And so you have  to fill out the exemption paperwork regardless   even if you have to do the full NEPA, but you  still have to fill out the exemption paperwork and   they say no, you don't qualify for the exemption  and then you go into the next phase. Um, and so   that would that paperwork would have to be done  regardless. So if you do fill it out and they say,   "Hey, you do qualify for the exemption um based  on your schematics for this design," then there   you go. You're done and you can get started. Is  there a backlog due to government shutdown? Uh,   I can't answer that. Um, because I don't know what  my answer, my short answer, if you maybe guess I   would say yes, there's some kind of impact to it.  um your federal funding isn't being affected by it   because it's already been, you know, obligated and  allocated. But um as far as having people staff   at work, I don't know whether or not they consider  environmental historical preservation reviewers to   be essential or not or not. I don't I don't have  the I don't have the exact answer for that. Well,   I I did have a you know, I did have a overarching  the overarching concern for me is we haven't no  

there's been no discussion or plan from staff that  I've seen of borrowing options. There's been some   light discussion. We've had one email about the  bonding capacity of the CRA. Um we've kind of had   some discussion about truest bank on Friday using  the credit line, but I haven't seen my options   find. Do we use a partner? What is the partner to  look at? We did that in September 23. I'm serious.   I'm not I'm not trying to be cute. I'm saying we  did that in September 23 and we told staff we were   going to use apartment. So they didn't they didn't  prepare anything for Yeah. I' I'd love to see that   in convention. So are you asking for an option  to finance just the first 50 or the the total   the first 50? For the first 50. And I I mean I  I can support that from this aspect. I know Jan,   you'll probably have a lot to to inject on the uh  on the truest piece, but if there is some way to   to utilize FEMA funding or there's another way for  us to do some interim finance, I know that we've   got other options that you've been looking at  whether it be with CRA and some other things. So,   um you know, I think the first 50 is the most  difficult and obviously the one that's at was   the most timeconuming. So, I'm at least open to  looking at those options. the just to maybe help   a little bit here while Olivia's there in the  FEMA funding grant um or the FEMA grant. I I   always assumed that when you had talked about  the $5.5 million being applied to the marina   that there would be EHP, but we'd pick things that  would we wouldn't be constructing for a year and a   half anyway. So, there'd be plenty of time to get  through the EHP process. when this issue came up,   I thought, well, that's interesting. Uh, we ought  to explore it. But Olivia, would you take what   was pre-existing and then you would overlay on  top of that a design to and that would help you  

determine if it's in close to the same footprint.  You would then determine does it is it bigger or   smaller? All those is that how you make your  initial decision whether or not you think it   would make sense to go for an exemption. Um I we  so like I said in order to start the EHP process   you have to fill out exemption paperwork anyway.  So I would just you know we can draft exemption   paperwork in couple of days a week. So we would  just go forward with it like that and see what   they come back with. Um because that paperwork has  to be done regardless. if they come back and say,   "Hey, you need a full EHP," then we can pull the  exemption if you guys don't want to go down that   route or we go down the NEPA 106 environmental  assessment. My point is you'd be able to look   at it once you see what was there and what we're  proposing as far as this 20%. Yeah, I could give   you a educated guess, but I I you know, we would  still have to send it out for the actual exemption   from from NEPA. Yes, sir. And if we take the 5 a.5  million and put it where we talked about on the   utilities and we have the permit and if let's  say you get a partner to build can we start in   December or do we still have to go through the  EHV process on the we don't have to go through   that on the on the uh slips right it it depends  on where what money you're using the 5 a.5 million   that's going to go to the utilities so that we've  already voted on do we have to go through the EHP   process on that cuz the marina has not no yeah  I mean if you're going to use federal money we   have to go through an exemption. Wasn't that one  of the reasons that y'all at that meeting that it   was it was a timing thing and you had money coming  in? Yeah. Also, there's a lot of this that's time.   But now listen to what Nevin was saying. I mean,  and what Olivia is saying, what I what I'm I'm   kind of gathering from this is the cost are cost.  It doesn't matter whether we're spending the FEMA   money on uplands or whether we're sending  on slips, it's getting spent on the marina.  

And so the we don't whatever the cost comes in 3  million I think is what Nevin said on the table.   That's what I said just yeah CMP would be able to  tell you their estimate. I don't I don't have an   estimate from so but but the but the point is you  can't go you can't do anything with the FEMA funds   until you have a design plan. The first thing to  come out of design is going to be the slips. So,   it would make sense that as we're going through  the bidding process or the partner pro, whatever   it is, to submit it, let Olivia take a stab at  seeing, hey, will this will this be permanent   exempt so that we can draw down those funds faster  and not have to pay the interest expense for it or   for another year to go through some other? And  if they come back and they say, "No, you can't,"   then it comes back to us for a discussion of do  we want to proceed forward with marina funding,   lending funding, something else funding at that  point. um and move the money and apply it to the   next thing that we get engineered, which might be  the sidewalks, which might be the parking, which   might be the the electrical, whatever it is. But  you can't go through the process to access that $5   million. What I'm clearly hearing, we can't access  that $5 million until we have something designed   that can be submitted to FE. Yeah. Because we're  going to have to change Yes. Because we have to   submit an amendment to change the original scope  of work from what it was to use the $5 million   regardless. Once you initiate an amendment to  change that scope of work from whether it was the   um trying to think the bulkheads and the other  project that equaled the 5 million um once we   submit the amendment for that it's going to have  to go through the EHPQ. So whether when it gets   to step seven which is the EP it will either be  exempted or it will be pushed into a full a full   environmental assessment. So changing the scope of  work is what initiates the need for environmental.   You cannot submit for an amendment until you  have a a new scope of work, a completed scope of  

work. We can't just go in on a theory. Yeah. Your  start date moves back how much you were talking it   doesn't move back in. Yeah. As long as you have if  you I mean we can submit it within a week of you   having the design plans. Yeah. I don't know how  fast they'll work through it in the holidays, but   I'm saying getting it off of our plate and into  their court um couple of days. And and in theory,   we could go out to bid during this process if we  wanted to, too. We just may not have an answer.   Yeah. If you are if you're flexible with your  funding source, sure. Okay. Yeah. But if you're   waiting on FEMA, not a good idea, right? Yeah. You  can't start work. I would not break ground until   you had an exemption. So, it seems to me the money  fasttrack. We need to talk about whether we could   use the three to between three to five million  based on what the cost are from our current   uh truest funds. If that's available, we  can get this moving, get the 50s going and   um while the design is being complete and we start  this process with the with the FEMA, it seems to   me if we're going to start with FEMA, we already  know we're going to anticipate some delays. What's   the interest rate on that loan? the new interest  rate. I have to look at you pulled off a miracle   and you don't remember went down. Interest rates  have changed. It went down. Went down. That's what   you need to remember. Really that 3 million turns  into 3 million plus interest. Sure. And so that's   a number. There's a cost that we need to factor if  we were going to what from 75 to 725 or something   like that. It went down. Yeah. It's and it's gone  down again because interest rates every time the   Fed cuts interesting. Again, I've always said from  the very beginning by going through this process,   we might end up in the exact same spot with asking  a partner to pay for the construction of Marina.   But my point is that decision would come when you  have a cost, you have a design and that there's  

construction cost and you're weighing in other  funding mechanisms going, yes, if we fund it   through our loan, we're paying interest and all  that thing, but and so you're able to look at   the full picture that way when you have build  cost, when you have a design, build cost, and   other funding options, then you can look at all,  but the fastest way is to use the line of credit,   no closing cost and things like that. But to  me, it's also the most risky long term. Mhm. I'm   sorry, Dave. It's the most risky long term because  we don't currently have a way to pay that off,   right? So, we we're we're going to ask FEMA for  a um uh for a um exemption, which they're likely   to we we don't ask FEMA for the exemption.  We ask NEPA for the exemption. Okay. Anyway,   it's in a FEMA queue, but yeah, it's not FEMA  is not the one who exempts us. It's yeah the uh   national environment protection for an exemption  which you said that if we deviate from more than   20% from original design I mean I'm not I haven't  looked at it I'm pretty sure we're over 20%. Yeah.   Just a wild guess. Right. So that's a concern on  using the FEMA money for the wet slips. Um so yeah   using the FEMA money on the wet slips. Um, but  the the idea of putting it on the $150 million   loan without having money that we know will come  back to pay it off, uh, I am not comfortable with   at all at all because it will wind up on long-term  debt. So, we other option is a CRA to pay for it,   but I'd like to have all those presented with some  sharity. That's my point is we we're probably not   going to, you know, figure out all the funding  and where all the money goes tonight, but to me,   I'd like to have those options back to us. I I  will say this. I I do think it it doesn't cost   us anything to ask. And I I think what you may  find is they may look at the entire basin and   say that was the impacted basin, so you can move  things around in the basin. Or they may look at   it by the post and they may say, "No, you can't  because you moved the post a foot." You don't know  

what their response is. And it's the same thing on  the sidewalk, too. They could look at the sidewalk   and say, "Well, it's wider." or they could look at  and say, "Well, you had parking right beside it,   so you really didn't change any ground disturbance  in doing that." And so I I don't think it hurts to   ask, but to your point, I think there's other  sources that we could identify right now that   could be utilized for that, whether it be truis,  whether it be CRA bond, whether it be any of   those things. So any discussion the money? So I  I just like to add Commissioner Granger remembers   correctly, we have received past um opinion that  this would trigger uh EHP and I want to clarify,   you're saying a NEPA exemption, not a EHP  exemption. So uh the NEPA is the environmental   assessment that FEMA pushes. So it's a 106  assessment. Um it's environmental. It's through um   the NEPA agency or it's through the Environmental  Protection Agency. So, um, but that's what when   FEMA does an environmental assessment in the EHPQ,  that's what they're doing is a 106 assessment. So,   I agree with you. If we don't ask, the answer is  always no, right? If we don't ask, it's always   no. But I I wouldn't bet any money on this. Um,  so what I'm saying is is that we shouldn't hang   our hat on them giving us an exemption. We need  to find alternative paths forward. Agreed. And   that's part of the reasoning that got us to where  we are now, not depending on FEMA when we had this   discussion two years ago. Yeah. Well, $5 million,  we're definitely going to depend on FEMA for. So,   we just got to figure out where that's going to  get spent. But I agree with your statement as   far as like we need to have other alternatives  than beyond that because if it takes a month,   if it takes 3 weeks, if they don't respond or  they say, "Hey, you know, we need to be able   to go to move quickly because I don't want  to delay. If we've got something designed,   ready to go, we should go and construct because  I think that's what the citizens of Grenandy. I  

agreed. And I think that the the best place to  put something that's going to have a delay of 18   months is probably in the infrastructure because  um like the roads and sidewalks won't be used near   won't be needed near as quickly if if the slips  are still being built and they have to that has to   be put in in order to build the slips. Yeah. Like  I said, it's kind of cost regardless. But yeah,   to put can I put a little cap on this discussion  while Olivia is there first? You want to hear from   the public first? I'd love to. Yeah, let's let's  open up public comments related to finance on the   Maria financing source of financing. Anyone want  to talk about it? No. No one. Oh, yes, sir. Derek talked about financing on the marina. Well, and  what you're just Terry Thomas 1100 West Street   and what you're just talking about about changing  the the footprint of it. If you're going to do the   first slips on the north side and you decided that  smaller slips would be better for the people that   live here, then you wouldn't have to go through  the same process on the uh south side if you just   kept it the way it was. And I don't think those  those ones that are up on lifts are part of the   first 50. So if you just did the 50 basically  that used to be two on the all the way on the   left that used to be two seat brakes and now  it's one. So it's definitely a lot different and   uh well that's going to eat up stuff but that's  going to be the big different part. So yes sir.   Thank you. Anyone else? All right moving on.  Mr. I want to put I just uh on the FEMA grant   um I believe Olivia's already involved and has  worked with staff or is working with staff to   come up with options to present to you uh for how  that FEMA grant could be used. Obviously this wet   slip I hadn't thought of it until recently.  That is something that could be looked at.  

But then also there needs to be a way to get  to the 50 slips. So I don't know what minimal   infrastructure or or roads or whatever needs  to be installed. So we could put that in the in   the mix and when we come back to you hopefully it  would give you a little some ideas you know does   wet slips timing wise does it make sense? What  about the prominad? What about other things that   uh water and sewer other things that it can be  used? And then what's the timing of when those   other things are constructed? Does that make sense  to bring that back to you on that? Does Nevin,   but I would say this, like we're only going to  have the slips designed. We're not going to have   Upland's infrastructure designed. And if we're  just trying to get the clear cost on something,   we should probably stick to what we we've got  designed. That would be the only thing I would   say is cuz if we start adding in prominade and we  start adding all those things, like we don't have   any plans designed for that. So I don't know how  we get to a call for action. Some of the thing   I think I just want to echo Mr. Zimmerman. So we  did he's right. We talked about the prominade. We   talked about the um these are just some concepts  when we talked about the additional FEMA funding   options and y'all looked at the different options.  We we talked about you know it was clear we wanted   it to be spent y'all wanted it to be spent on the  marina. So we did we talked about infrastructure.   We talked about the prominade which included  lights, concrete and the railing. Uh we talked   about the boat ramp. We talked about the ship  store. Those were probably the four or five main   things we talked about uh using this additional  five money for. I will say of those, I mean the   promot is probably the easiest and quickest thing  to design because you're basically talking about   a sidewalk and railing uh and then lights and  so and we'd probably go the solar route which   makes it even quicker. So, um, obviously the boat  ramp and the infrastructure such as water, sewer,   and storm water is going to be a much longer  design than their prominade to Commissioner  

Hughes point extending basically what's behind  uh, Indigo and Harrison's all the way around the   perimeter of the T do. I just my comment was more  like don't don't make it so complicated that you   actually can't get to a to a and and I wasn't  suggesting that staff would be going ahead and   asking anything from FEMA yet. would be bringing  back to you because there needs to be an alternate   scope written and approved. One of the things we  could look at is St. Joe design and that might   take some of the money for phase two. No, they're  just doing Yeah. And it might be cheaper for them   to do it now just utilities um while they're  while they're out there working. I don't know.   But not having the design, that's that's one  more stop point that when it's time to go,   you're going to wait on it. Getting it all done as  soon as you can is if it has to sit for a minute,   at least we got it. My thought. That's city  financing for construction and financing for   50 slips. We talked to uh uh Joel Tindle,  mayor as far as any financing for the entire   thing as far as the city, but to stay on the  50 slips there, you have received different   uh term sheets from CMP. And if you look uh you  can um like for example the term sheet one is very   similar to the one you received in September of  this year and um the first 50 slips would just be   built there wouldn't be any financing directly  by the city on on the building the 50 slips.   Um but there are different that's on term sheet  one. there are different provisions on the other   uh sheets as far as how much the city pays  or or doesn't pay or how much revenue the  

city receives and and all but I just wanted to  make that point as far as financing the entire   uh marina project if you use the number 15 million  now that's just the wet slips there'll be a need   also for uplands improvements of let's just use  the number 10 million. So now we're talking about   20 to 25 million. Um the uh proposal would be that  you you do if if you went and you use the truest   loan, you know that you have two years to pay it  back. And and we hope that we'll be able to pay   back most if of the $150 million loan as FEMA is  making reimbursements and replenishing that. that   entire $150 million loan is due in uh two years  essentially. So uh what do you do in two years?   You would you could look at the possibility  explore the possibility of in a year and a   half doing a u a bond issue or a bank loan that  pledges if the city wants to build it and if   you would pledge revenues off of the marina. Don't  know who operates it. Don't know if that's profit.   Don't know if that's all a gross revenue pledge.  We don't know that. And but also you would need   to pledge other revenues which would be what is  called a covenant to budget and appropriate. And   that is uh nobody knows today uh how strong that  is. Obviously if everything works out in a year   and a half, two years and that $150 million bond  issue uh or loan can be significantly paid off.   We should have I was talking to Miss Smith about  it this afternoon. Shouldn't be an issue. It we  

but we don't know yet how that will all end up.  So you would be looking at pledging revenues off   of the marina. You could go talk to the CRA. You  could talk to the DIIB, see if they're willing to   contribute anything. And then you would also do a  covenant to budget and appropriate. that decision   isn't made today. If you decided to go ahead and  spend money to build the uh 50 slips, but you   know that that money that you are borrowing for 50  slips comes due and that you would have to have an   overall financing in place before you could build  the remaining 150 slips. And none of the money off   the slips can come off the marina, right? It has  to stay there. Uh I believe yeah the way that the   uh submerged land lease I believe the money that  you uh the safest thing is that the money that   you make stays for improvements on the marina. Now  as far as a a partner you have in front of you the   different options or the different term sheets  from CMP as far as what the city would pay and   what uh the partner would pay. And I believe that  um under the just as an example under term sheet   one the partner would pay for everything except  the $10 million that's estimated for the upland   improvements. Half of that hopefully would be  FEMA financed. The other half would not. That's   just just one of the different options and that's  the option more or less what you saw in September. Why is that finance or is that we spend  it and then give it back to us? I thought  

that was the five million they're giving. Okay.  the U right it's a great there's in other words   $10 million has been identified and it's under the  term of um I think facilities it's it's in your   term sheets and there's a long sentence that goes  through and talks about the different things that   that it would not be that's in addition to the wet  slips it's public infrastructure is the term they   use out of the 10 million estimated five could be  from FEMA and the other five would be borrowed. Come on up. You want to talk  about money? Come on up. Yeah, that's one of my concern in general.  There's so many options to fund it and I   just I want that could be its own separate  workshop of how do you fund this thing?   Um yeah, I I I just hope this is an oversight on  my part. I know that phase 2 includes ship store   facilities. There's very broad sweep of what will  be included in that. But for the first 50 slips,   where are the uh bathroom facilities that  meet all the codes and everything? And just   ensure that's factored in there because  I know sewage is easy to say that'll be   phase two and everything, but you've got to  have and I haven't seen that specified in   uh you know to be concurrent with the first  50 slips. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Let's go to back to boat slip  construction if you don't mind. Um,   since we kind of talked about financing, do we  want to go back over option A and option B or   do we want to just talk about philosophically  when do we decide who who builds the marina?

Well, I haven't seen any funding options  that are not bonding or going into debt. So,   I'm I'm not supportive of anything that  would cause us to go into debt um long term.   Um, I mean, it's just it doesn't make sense  to me to because we we're cutting we cut 8   million in expenditures this last budget cycle.  We're looking to have to cut 4 million out next   budget cycle. Um, so where are we going to get  the extra money to pay on the loans? And we may   might even be able to get a deferred payment  or we don't have to pay on it for a couple of   years. But the point is is that we still have  to come up with the money to make that payment.   Mhm. Um that's right. I supposition I'd rather us  not be first. I heard him say we have to pledge   the future. Yeah. But um Okay. And then we sit%  sales tax. Those are benefits that we're going to   get potentially that we're going to put towards  death. Um that's a concern. I'm I'm supportive   of looking at it from an interimm financing place  because the first 50 slips are internal in and of   themselves. And so, you know, I we went through  the same thing in St. Andrews whereas there's   a huge gap between 50 and 160 um even in your  operational cost. And so, um you know, looking   at it from the perspective of how you get maybe  you only need the interim financing for 6 months,   maybe you only need it for a year, maybe you only  need it for two years. those interim financings   that definitely simplify what you're trying to  problem solve later on what I'm seeing here. So,   so I think that we should at least consider a  some type of interim financing like mechanism   to get these first 50 done so we don't have create  a delay. I forgot about the 13 million that's also   we've got that going on to uh long-term debt. So,  I'd rather us not put ourselves in a position. So,  

mayor, help me connect. My bad. I'm sorry. Help me  connect the dots. Offer. You say, "What's the best   way to to fund it?" They made five offers to us.  I think what we're talking about is the slowest,   most expensive way to the city. Um, so I'm I'm  trying to connect the dots on why that's worth   exploring when there are other options that are  less expensive and faster to get there. And to   Josh's point, starting in December, that'd be  great. Yeah. Yeah. And I quit getting hazed   about puts in the ground on the video that I had.  Uh, but that gets us there a little bit faster and   obviously with less expense or zero expense to  some degree. Okay. Can you help me with that?   Yeah. A lot of this conversation is when do  you couple up decisions? Um, you know, there's   uh when do you choose a contractor? When do you  choose your financing? Because you can couple   those two decisions together. You can couple who  builds it with how you finance it because they're   willing to in the term sheet fund the construction  themselves if there's a deal of management. And so   that to me is when you make that decision is after  you know when you have a design for the thing when   you know what it costs to build it and you know  all the different options for funding then you   have a discussion of funding it building it and  managing it or maybe just funding and building it.   To me those two could be coupled together. And for  me this this discussion and these term have always   been a little bit early in the conversation. It  would we there's so many numbers on this page with   details that we haven't discussed and we haven't  outlined and no bullet points that it makes me   nervous to make these big decisions that actually  couple design construct manage and uplands all in   the same package. That makes me very nervous. And  so I think this is a little early. And so part of   this is as as a board when do we make certain  decisions? And I don't really know. I've never  

built a marina. So correct. Is PFN on with us?  They're still on. Yes, sir. Who is it? Y Julia.   Yeah, can you switch back to the um Zoom, please?  Cody, thank you, sir. Julia. Julie. Julia. Julia.   I missed I missed that. Robbie, he was I've got  a question in your uh if I came to you and said I   want to build something. uh do I have to do I you  you I hire you and you've got standard practices   of cost uh uses layouts that we kind you're you're  really helping me with a market analysis and cost   is it common practice the mayor's question concern  to have it designed have it we cost it out know it   all of that or is that you what you do for us  in in using your standard expertise industry   expertise yes we assist in obtaining the financing  uh at the lowest possible cost depending on the   uh the timing and the repayment sources. So um we  are are not involved in the actual costing itself   from a construction standpoint if that's what  you're asking. Yes, ma'am. I am cuz my concern   is is that I've never heard it done that way and  I don't think we ever get sent we ever get home   if we found odds and costs. I found six marinas  in Florida that are actually owned by the CRAAS   and our CRA can actually bond $3 million. The CRA  can actually go pay for the wet slips and within   a few weeks they can go pay for it and it's not  even on the general fund. It's borrowed off of the   current revenues, not projected revenues, but the  current revenues of the CRA could just pay for the   wet slips. we haven't had that conversation cuz  to me it's just early to have that conversation   cuz we don't know what the thing actually we say  oh it might be 4 million it might be five it might   be two I don't really know so I have a hard time  making these big decisions when there's so many  

points of data and to me we're coupling a lot  of things together okay what I hear you saying   is if we go out to bid on construction um with 50  slips with CRA funding truis funding whatever that   specific funding that we use, we had actual cost  to then throw into your financial analysis. Yeah.   Is that it's like so there's no kind of removes  any of the speculation actually should help you   get to an agreement faster with whoever you're  Yeah. We haven't for me we haven't c CMP's tried   for two years to go what about this deal what  about this deal and we haven't had we haven't had   this discussion ever you know and and so this  to me is a lot of big decisions before we've   discussed them individually and that's what we're  doing our take credit for y'all being here. Yeah,   tell me. Question. Um, if we if we're going to  build it, I need to know the cost. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.   If I'm not going to build it, what do I need to  know the cost? You need to be paid on income. So,   we had this conversation previous time. You  need to know the cost because it ultimately   is what's determining with our with our analysis  here what our profit share is. Without knowing   what the cost are, you can't get a true profit and  loss analysis. And that was the whole reason why   having some fixed cost definitely does reduce the  amount of variables. Okay. If if I'm working off   of gross revenue only Mhm. that's how these are  set these offers are set up. If if it's a dollar   or 10 million that they're going to get what they  get and we're going to come off of gross revenue,   not it's a great point. That is the safest  way to do a revenue share is the gross revenue   thing. I've done gross revenue leases before. It  definitely eliminates a lot of risk for the person   that's receiving the gross revenue share because  it doesn't matter what the profit margin is,   you're still getting that rate regardless. Um,  however, what I also hear is I hear a desire to  

maybe go a little deeper into this one than just  what gross revenue is and try to understand um,   you know, and there are more costs. I mean like  there's it's a bigger marina and so you know maybe   that revenue share should be different I guess  is what I'm kind of hearing. Okay. And I've I've   said it we might end up in the exact same terms  but but we I think it'll be with clarity in the   spring. That's when we have a design when we have  what it costs to build. That's what I'm advocating   for when we you know why do they pay for it?  Well here's why. We have a way to explain it. So,   and I'm willing to have we can sh we can shift a  virtual meeting to a special meeting every month.   So, we're talking about the marina constantly. We  have a special meeting dedicated. I'm fine with   that, too. Whatever it takes to drive this  forward uh efficiently, I'm up for it. So,   y'all have Yeah. Do we want anyone else  want to talk about boat slip construction? Yeah. Mayor, if I could add one point might  be helpful. Um when the city was working on   the St. Andrews Marina, the consultant we had had  two subconsultants working with uh them and the   one subconsultant was an operator and had a lot  of expertise in operating marinas and evaluated   the anticipated cost the on&m the operation and  maintenance cost every year on during the life   of the lease. The other subconsultant uh was a  cons uh built marinas. And so that consultant   looked at the construction cost, anticipated  construction cost. And then that information   was given to our consultant who then said the the  percentage of gross revenue that was reasonable.  

I forget now exactly uh how how it was broken down  but it was a tiered approach but that information   is used as commissioner street said to drive  what a reasonable return or percentage return   uh to the city would be on the gross revenues.  Okay, I'd like to move to since there's another   comments move to ship store discussion of the ship  store. Um from I've not had a conversation with   anybody on about when the ship get store gets  built, who should design it cuz to me whoever   manages it probably should weigh in on what it  looks like. Uh so that's designed for something   that they know works. Um how do we pay for it?  All those discussions. Uh is it necessary in   the first 50 slips to have a ship store be a part  of the conversation? I have no idea. You'll have   gas and have snow probably. Yeah. Uh it sounds  like it shouldn't be a separate project due to   the restroom issue. We we probably will have to um  build 50 slips and then if we can't lease them out   because they don't meet certain requirements, then  they're just going to sit there. I'd rather not be   in a position where we move forward on a marina,  have built 50 slips, and then we can't rent them   because we haven't figured out sewer. Well, I I  would say beyond Miss Chris's opinion, I'd love   to hear other people who manage them, manage slips  of is that something you start designing. What I   hate for to do is stop the the process of moving  forward with construction to go to spend 6 months   designing a ship store, too. So, do we could we  that be something we designed in the summer or   in the spring? I I don't know the proper times  to be designing and costing out these things.   With all due respect, Chris can shower and they  don't have to go scale. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody. With   all due respect, Chris, we don't manage. Yeah.  You want to come up and have the comments on the  

microphone? Yeah. I mean, I would You're welcome  to. So, she said um really with the ship store,   she's talking about per bathrooms and showers so  people who are overnighting there can shower and   things like that immediately. So, we haven't had a  conversation about ship store, when that should be   built, who designs it, who pays for it, and is  that infrastructure? What is where is that? So   that that was the big variable in the in the term  sheets that we spent some time on Friday talking   about because right now as it stands like there's  no revenue share inside of that and that is a big   part of the expense that we're putting into it is  I mean of the upland improvements that could be a   couple million dollars that's going into a ship  store. So the question is do we divide that off?   Is that something that's that's needed? Does it  increase our return? Does it make our return less?   like those are the things that I had questions  about on the existing term sheets. But I do think   it's a point that yeah, you could have I mean  there's people that rent just slips um as long   as there's public amenities that are around it. So  I don't know that you absolutely have to have to   do 50 slips a ship store ready to go. I think  we should start the design process very soon.   I think that should be the first thing that we  design for an upland improvement should be the,   you know, the ship store and and and fuel  facilities because that's what's going to   be needed first. Um, but that could be a 6 to9  month process cuz we haven't even started it. So,   so the question is if the question is to do we  wait on con starting construction on the slips,   I'd say no because I mean it takes it takes time  to get through all these things and build slips   and infrastructure and all those things. So  I think we got to do them simultaneously is   I guess what I'm saying. But does it have to be  a part tied into the agreement though? I don't   think it does. I think it potentially could be  coupled into the discussion related just after   financing it of managing because again the person  might want to uh construct the ship store and be  

a part of it who's managing the property. Uh  they might want some say so or we might find   there's some sort of ship store expert designer.  Um, but to me that's not something that I would   want to decide today of who who's building  the ship store. We haven't even outlined it. You got like three different groups of people  working on the marina. It's just that that's   complicated. It's slowing it down. It's who's  in charge left or right? Um, which construction   area is which? Well, you got slips going. You  got you got the ship store going. You you got   utilities going. And but I mean what I'm saying is  now talking about maybe bringing other people in   to work and just all I see is wow. Oh yeah. But my  point is we haven't outlined even the term sheets.   We don't know. We haven't started talking about  but the RSP was in the RFP included ship store. So   that's been included in their offer already. Yeah.  I think I think my my expectation was the was the   private entity was going to handle ship store  and those things too. But in these proposals,   it's on our the cost is on our side of the  table. So because of that is why I'm like,   okay, if it's not producing revenue  that's helping in the lease,   then maybe we need to separate those  two is what I'm saying. So at least   some clarity. Yeah. Just in general. Anyone  want to make a comment about ship stores? Yes, sir. Eric Thomas 1100 West 10th Street.  Uh I'd like to suggest that maybe you split the   the store that sells uh stuff and they just  the the utilities and the gas and place you   can take a shower. So that way they would  be uh you know if you you keep using the   gas pump that's there. If you put a gas pump  right next to the restaurant then because of   that part now not draining very well. there's  ever any leaks in that part. Maybe that's not  

a good part of the marina to do it. I know  I wasn't the only one that felt it might   be better to leave the the gas pumps at the  end out by the uh the water. The bigger boats   could more easily do it. And if you put  in the plumbing now and the gas pump now,   then maybe later if you wanted to put a second  store next to the the restaurant, it wouldn't.   You could split it and maybe have a second set  of bathrooms for the public there, but then have,   you know, some place that the people at events  can use a bathroom facility at the end of the   pier so they don't have to go all the way back  and then split it up into two or make the the   uh store that's at the end of the pier bigger  later, but worry about just getting the the gas   pump in and the and the showers. Thank you. Yes,  sir. Any other discussion rel up here? Mr. Zimman,   do you want to clarify anything or just keep  moving forward? On the shift store, I just was   going to point out that under the um different  term sheets from CMP. It's under the definition   of public infrastructure, which would be something  the city would be responsible to fund. If I could   ask to I've seen a couple of concepts. I know  we have a Do we have the design plans for what   was at the end? Was Do we have actual plans? Cuz  I know I found certain cases where something got   built and there's no plans for it construction  left of where it was on the end and then I've   also seen some kind of conceptual that was closer  up to the two. Is that just a drawing or is there   was there any engineering done on any of that? I  I believe those were just what I would refer to   as renderings or conceptual plans. The only firm  plans that I am aware of that are in process are   what you're seeing on the screen. That is the the  west basin design by St. Joe as well as the east   basin. Again, approximately 200 slips total. Y'all  have the timeline in front of you. Uh and that's  

all that's being designed. There's there's no,  you know, from their perspectives. Ship store,   any of that kind of stuff is not part of that.  So, I might say that before I mean I I would be   comfortable starting construction or going out or  starting this whole thing once we get the design,   but the next thing that we should create a  timeline for is the design of the ship store. Like   that that makes sense to me because by the time  that those slips are done, you really do need to   have some type of public facilities available to  us ideally. Mhm. Alison. Yes, ma'am. Come on up. You need name and address, please. Judy  Stapleton, 542 South Bonita. Thanks. 32401. Um,   okay. I'm glad this is that small. I can't see it.  Could you pull that mic down, please, Judy? Thank   you. Much better. Yes. Um, initially I understood  that the ship store was going to be over by Indigo   in that basin. And then I somehow got the concept  that people felt like it would be better to keep   it where it was. There would be more room for  people getting in and out with their boats and   so forth. And so you're talking about building now  building it. You're talking about putting it over   by Indigo in the west. Is that or is it over by  the boat ramp? I'm asking the same thing you're   asking. It's unclear right now. Okay. So that's  um because if we're talking about designing it,   it's really kind of important where it's going to  be. And I really think if you have people coming  

in at the ramp, if you want them to put fuel in  their boats, it's much better to have it over here   than to have them to go around over there. But if  you're more concerned about the boats over here,   I guess that's where it needs to be. Thanks. So  to to clarify, I think we've made a decision on   where the fuel facility is. I think that's in  this design. I think we're doing at the end of   the T dock. I think we've made that choice, but  where the ship store could be. Does it need to be   there? Does it need to be elsewhere? I don't know  that we've made an actual formal commitment until   we get to some type of design process. Okay. So  you were going to separate them. maybe or maybe   they're the same. It's unclear to me and that's  why I was saying I think that's our next step   as far as from an upland improvement. We need to  identify where what that and start that design. Um   while he's coming up, Mr. Mayor, I think the  remember that 3D model that kind of sat out   at city hall for a while. I think that might  have shown the other side of the street from   Harrison. So you literally right across the street  which is a green parcel right now. I know. I saw   a concept that kind of showed like a two-story  building there, like a ship store and and all of   that. Yeah, that's why I was asking cuz it looks  like there's already a spot like outlaid for it.   That's why I was curious, son. Yes, sir. Uh I'm  Joe Pospell. I live at 3208 West 16th Street in   St. Andrews. Um, I used to keep my housebo at the  city marina and uh um I I have a I have an idea.   If I understand correctly, the FEMA funding would  be available for the slips if you built them back   essentially exactly the way they were with very  little change. And so, why not do that? Why not   build the West Basin back just the way it was?  and the ship store just the way it was and use  

that funding and then go on from there. The the  West Basin, as I recall, was perfectly fine the   way it was. This is nice and maybe it could be  done later, this addition of the the big pier   out here. But there was nothing wrong with the  West Basin, in my humble opinion, and there was   nothing wrong with the ship store. And if you  can use FEMA funding to get started right now   building that back exactly the way it was and the  ship store back, then why not? We've waited eight   years. Eight years. So what? Okay. Seven years. My  bad. And that's all I've got. Thank you. You know,   part of the reason I believe we moved from that  is um even even with this magic FEMA money, right?   You hear about, oh, they we still have to borrow  the money and carry the loan. That's when we're   talking about the $8.5 million of debt service  that we have. It's coming from that us having   to float those loans. So even the FEMA money costs  us money. And so if you look at a loan and the and   the life cycle of a loan, there's opportunity in  tweaking a layout as of do we want this? Yes, it   worked. People rented those slips, but is it the  best slips, right size slips for now? And so the   the goal is I mean it has to pay for itself. And  so, um, I do agree with the sentiment of the fat.   You know, in life, there's good, fast, or cheap.  Uh, and you can only pick two of those if you're   lucky. And so, fast definitely been just to put it  all back to FEMA. Well, possibly put the fastest   way working with FEMA. Uh, but not always the  case. Um, there are lots of horror stories of it,   them clawing things back because you didn't put it  exactly the way it was. And so, we don't want to   claw back situation. So, that's always been part  of the concern before I was working. Question.   you want you to add to that? Unfortunately, that  Olivia integrity um unfortunately that scenario   doesn't really apply to this because this $5  million is coming from other projects. It's not  

the actual project that was originally written.  While going back in the exact same footprint   may expedite the environmental review, you're  still going to have to go through the amendment,   the scope change, and then through that  queue. Um so, would it be faster? Potentially,   very much so. But it is not like we just using the  original scope of work and we could get started   next week with the exemption. So I just wanted  to clarify that. Yes. Thank you. Anyone else?   All right. Moving on to the next section. Um we  had kind of already talked about we're talking   about boat slip. You want to recap anything? We're  talking about boat slip management. Is that what   we're talking about? Yeah. I think financing  uh unless you see something there. I believe   it's we've already talked about it. Talk through  it. Yeah. Mhm. Uh boat slip management. Um that's   part of the discussion, the term sheets of who  manages those uh that asset, that citizen asset,   and when do we know it's a good decision and when  do we know we've made the right decision. So what   these are some of the options that we have in  front of us. Option A, B, and C. Do you want   to go through them, Mr. Zimmerman? Uh yes. the um  you have a variety of options that CMP was being   responsive. Uh their option one uh is pretty close  to what they had presented back in September and   this is for it's not just management. This is a  result of CMP being uh selected. They were that   there was a request for proposal process.  they were the only ones that responded and   um that that it was not just for pure management.  We didn't know exactly what it would be because   there wasn't any lease that had been negotiated  but in the request for proposal it was for them   to bring uh equity capital and to the project and  then there would be a share of revenues. Uh so  

that was uh so this option one in front of you it  talks about a 55- year lease term it it would be   um zero um financing by the city except for  the public improvements and their definition   of public improvements would be it would include  the ship store but it would include the prominade   and the railings and some of the uh parking.  all all things to be finally determined in the   uh in the lease. There is in their proposed  lease a request for conduit financing and that's   uh called a private activity bond where the  city is not legally on the hook but the city   sponsors it and then the uh CMP is the lei would  be responsible to build the leie improvements or   the lease improvements and if there was a default  the city could take over or it could be the bank   coming in and taking over from CMP. So, the city's  not financially on the hook. Reality is it's such   an important um project. Obviously, it's not the  hotel, it's the uh actual wet slips and um and it   it is patterned. I mentioned hotel because it is  patterned after the St. Joe lease. In that case,   if there were a default under the hotel Indigo or  under the uh lease by St. Joe, the the bank would   be obligated to come in if for some reason  the city wanted to. The city could come in,   but the city probably does not want to operate  a hotel. And so that is lot a lot different than   uh operating a marina. But uh so conduit financing  is um is a request if the city is able to do it  

and um and then it goes through as far as you  know there would be 25% more or less would be   an equity contribution. We heard in September  at the special meeting that probably 30% would   be necessary as a cont equity contribution if  there's conduit financing. Um, I know CMP was   somewhat disappointed in the estimated interest  rates for conduit financing. We just don't we just   have to explore, you know, and work through that  process as far as it is that a good option for CMP   or not. Uh, the goal is that it be credit neutral  to the city. The goal is that it doesn't impact   the city's credit at at all. And that's that's the  option that was considered um in September. Also,   there is other things in there. Um where the  proposal would be to have uh some rights for   uplands, but I'm not going to talk about that  right now, but but limit the discussion to boat   slip management. There is um if the city were  to go about if the city were to build the marina   then the city could operate it or the city could  hire a management company to operate the marina.   Now you you'd have to work out how much do you  pay the management company? Would you be able to   make enough money to hopefully pay the debt that's  associated with the marina? All those things are   would would have to be determined. But obviously  if the management company's not paying the $15   million of construction costs, then um it would  be there there should be some revenues around to  

help pay for the city's debt. But uh that's those  are we have not explored that. the city has not   because we in going through the RFP process we  were focused on finding an equity partner rather   than just a management company. So those are uh  and we have not explored with CMP actually I mean   just being a management company. However, they did  present an option where I think it'd be option two   and three where they'd be willing to consider a  5-year uh lease or 5-year management agreement.   Um, and they would be the ones that would actually  they their proposal would be that they would build   it on a cost plus basis. May I? Yes. Go ahead.  Since y'all would say it, I'm having trouble with   Brian Granger's point, Commissioner Granger,  creating more debt on an asset that we own. No, that was September 23, right? That  y'all talked about that. That when you   sep September 19th of available then or  have you put any RFS out then? that that   was when we had had looked at what what did  we want to do with the money from a strategic   standpoint. Um we came to the conclusion  that we could get a partner on the marina.   um that it that that we could get an equity  partner on the arena, meaning that somebody   would be willing to put their own money  in rebuilding it in exchange for having   um operations and being able to to to take some  of the profits there in a profit share scenario.   We didn't dive into all that, but that was just  the that was just the decision point of hey, this   is the direction we're going to go in. And then  we put out an RFP um was it like six six months  

later I think we put out an RFP um requesting  and CMP were the only ones to reply. Okay. So the equity partner talking with a couple  other guys marina guys and every one of   them say no we're not going to put all of  our money in it. Y'all going to help out.   uh they want to manage that was a requirement and um I'm just in May we were all in lock  step while we weren't going to manage,   we weren't going to build, we weren't going to  do and we got a partner that's trying to help   us and we can't get out of our own way and try  to figure out how to spend create $20 million   in debt. I I just that that's concerning to  me. Well, to me, we are trying to create a   path forward. Like that's what we're trying to  do with these. We haven't had this discussion   yet and that's been the problem all along is  so that's this is I'm trying to bring some   clarity. So I can tell you out of a like if CMP  operates it for decades or me manages the wet   slips or they give it back to us in 5 years or  we manage it. I definitely don't like option C.   I don't want to manage it ourselves. I like to  hear that better. Yeah. So are we can we agree   upon that? Yes. Okay. There we go. So option C.  There we go. Um, uh, there's lots of to me the   ma the management decision comes with a time  of because again a partner that is willing to   u finance the construction and do the construction  might also manage it as well. And so when you look   at a revenue share, you can you can give them  uh give the the partner in managing it um more   revenue to compensate for the amount of money  they have to put into the project. That's and   that's and that's part of these term sheets and  they they've done a great job of that. But I want   the public to understand that is we have to either  borrow money or they go borrow money and build the   thing for us and we have to compensate them for  that with something and so but we just never had  

these discussions and so that's why I'm wanting  to clear the man marina manager in that group.   Yeah. And I call him up and ask when I want to ask  him a question right like how how does how does   that work on a on a uh contract basis versus us?  How is that possible? You're welcome to come up cuz I know nothing about marina management.  I've I've owned and managed zero. Well,   actually now we kind of do, but No, you you manage  stuff. Yeah, I've managed lots of things, right? Yes, sir. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.  Mr. Mayor, my name is Scott Bert. 1500 West   11th Street, St. Andrews. I manage marinas and  I have for a long, long time. I managed marinas   from St. Thomas through Florida to Alabama  into Texas. I've built them. I've operated   them. I'm a partner in three of them. How can  I help you? Um from a management perspective,   uh do you find partnering with uh P3s uh and us  being in charge after a combination of being in   charge with you or you know how to manage and we  should say thank you and let's figure out what's   there. U I'm just trying to figure out what's the  fastest way to get there but also the most fair   and economical. You know, you know who how we all  need to succeed. Okay? I don't want you to fail.   Uh, but the management stuff that's important,  you know, because if if things aren't good at   the docks, people are going to be leaving  and that's important. And you keep them,   I'm assuming you got a lot of them. So,  you keep a good uh good docks, you know,  

and good marinas. We want it full and I think  you're successful in that, correct? Yes. Yes. Um,   I want to cover a couple of points. The plan  that's up there, I don't know if that's a   current St. Joe plan. I don't know if that's  the final plan or not, but I want to address   Mr. Mayor comment you made early on about building  a marina and the slips and the slip mix and it's   a great question. What's key nowadays in these  marinas is to have what we call flex dockage.   Points been raised about small slips, big slips,  whatever. Small boats and big slips sounds great,   doesn't work. So well, flex dockage allows you the  opportunity to host a variety of sizes of boats,   but not just sizes, but beams. And beams becoming  very beam is the width of the boat. The trend in   motor yachts nowadays is catamarans. That's  where we think that's where Joe Galotti,   it's where all of us think the future is going.  Tricky thing about cats are they don't fit into   slips. Not 40 foot slips. Not 20 foot slips. They  lay alongside. If you look at this phase one plan,   I assume that St. Joe drafted up. I want to  draw your attention to the basin at the top   of the board. I don't know if you can see it.  I'm looking at it. The audience can see it. That   large basin up there is very, very critical.  I hope that their final rendition includes   that because that basin allows for a variety of  types of dockage from small boats, 20, 30footers,   40footers, 50footers, 60footers, 100footers, 100  plus. That's what you need in a marina nowadays.  

Notice the end of the peers where it ls around  and then where it te's off. That's flex dockage.   It allows for an accommodation of a wide variety  of boats. That's the future of our industry. I   was in a meeting earlier today in Pensacola over  a renovation we're doing on a very old marina. And   the most important thing that we're looking at is  the beams of the boats that are coming at us that   have been coming at us that will continue to grow  over the next 10, 20 years. I want to address a   comment Chris Moser made. Chris did an excellent  job of running this marina. All these both these   marinas for many years. She's dead right.  Restrooms. You got to have them. Got to have   showers. That's most important part. Ship store. I  want to ask you for clarification. Are you talking   about a retail operation or are you talking  about the the management office? Which is it? You want to know what I'm going to tell  you? Great question. Here's what I'm going   to tell you. Ship stores sound great,  look great. When you do design sharets,   they love to throw them against the wall  left and right. Got to have ship store. Got   to have ship store. Got to have ship store.  They don't make any money. Trust me. You're   building something that you're not going to  make money. So downsize it. Do a marina office.   Put in Put in showers, nice showers, and save the  money. Drive it to operations. Keep it simple. What sort of agreements do you have  with municipalities that work well?   I don't. You don't. The only reason  I'm standing here in front of you,   that wasn't a loaded question either. I was  just curious. The only reason I'm standing   here in front of you is William Harrison, Cooper  Harrison, my brother Gorman's over there, Donnie  

Coker. That's the only reason I'm here. I I work  for private individuals and I have for 50 years.   love to work for you all if we can strike a deal.  What's your thought on um how occupancy there I   will on the shoulder on occupancy means we're  in a fluid world. You all know that you watch   real estate. We track real estate by 6 months. The  marine industry has always followed real estate.   Always has. Always will. Um it's fluid. So um I  can't tell you what it's going to do. I'd love   to be able to promise to you what it's going  to do, one thing, but I agree with the concept   that was brought up earlier. Get the 50 slips  up and running. Let's look at it. Let's build   to occupancy and see where it is. We are seeing  some uh postcoid adjustment, maybe normalization   in the market. Um, and that probably won't last  forever, but right now we're seeing some softness   across the board. So, I'd be realistic with um  expectations as to how quickly that would fill   up. But 50 slips, especially if the plan looks  anything like that, we'd be very good. Anything   else? Just to confirm your expertise on the on the  timeline of building all the slips, you wouldn't.   So if someone says build them all right now, would  you be would you be in favor of that or building   them incrementally? I'd build them incrementally.  Okay. Just as an expert. Okay. Well, we have to   because we have to wait 12 to 18 months to get the  firm. Yeah. Yeah. So would you build all of those   after depending on how market is? I you know  what I would base that upon how quickly the 50   absorb? Okay. They go quick that would change that  decision. They go slow, maybe you build them in  

phases. Did I answer your questions? Absolutely.  Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. What other discussion do you want  to have about management? When do   we decide management? Today or do  we decide it at spring? If I may,   so just for the benefit of of some of the newer  members of the commission and the public, this is   the timeline. Uh this is a portion out of a memo  that Mr. Zimmerman and I worked on for the staff,   but going back to the summer of 2023 and to  where we are with the RFP with CMP to negotiate. Did you say hard? Yeah, any other discussion from the public  about marino management? Can you zoom in? Yes. Scroll very slowly. Like Star Wars. Yeah. Derek Thomas, 1100 West 10th Street. I think  the uh the biggest question I would have the   the difference between option A and option B.  Option A, it doesn't say what the percentage is   that you're getting. And uh in the St. Andrews  Marina, I know that was making 438,000 and now   it's making 43. and there's 12.9 million to pay  off in that. Um, looking down into the future,   if they're you're gonna pay them 8%, but you're  going to actually have some money being generated   to pay off some of the debt that's already there,  that would be, you know, something worth looking   into. But if you don't know what the percentage is  that you're going to have to pay them for 55 years   and you don't know the exact cost of of building  it, there's no way to to determine whether or not   that's going to work out with the amount of  interest on the on the loans you're going to  

have to take out to do it. But I would think that  having some option of having money come in that   could be used to pay off the debt already. And  moving forward, if the if you let them operate the   Uplands just for the uh the 225 apartments, that's  4.8 million. They're saying they're going to give   391,000 out of that 4.8 million and then something  for the stores. But the marina itself just by   itself would have produced more money than that.  So if if you're getting over 400,000 in revenue   because that's what you could expect, if that's  what you're going to get out of St. Andrews and   this is a bigger marina, then you actually have  something to pay off some of that debt and you   have money coming in and it's not just us giving  it away and being stuck with them saying we don't   have the money to do it unless we have other stuff  like upland things. So if you do just the marina,   you need to know what the percentage on option A  is going to be so that you can determine and then   have an estimate of how much money you're going  to get. Agreed. Any other discussion related to   management? Well, I think option B and term  sheet four uh are where I'd like to see us   move our move our discussions toward um to your  question, Commissioner Hughes about, you know,   what do we care how much it cost them? If  it's a a revenuebased uh deal, then if we   don't know their cost, we don't have a way of  really gauging what the revenue is or should be   or whether we're getting a fair deal. um the the  public's concerns about uh the 99-year lease and   um the offer. It's a it's a very generous offer  for which they should be um compensated. uh but  

as the uh folk who have the responsibility of  this public asset uh you know I think looking   at term sheet four has uh put skin in the game  uh as well as uh protect uh the public interest   without giving a 99-year lease. I mean we're we're  having difficulty remembering what the commission   did two years ago. you put something in place for  99 years and it's um you know oh in fairness it's   55 plus perhaps another 44 but still um I guess  a way to think of it is if somebody offered to   come to your house and rebuild the whole thing um  to their liking, would you just give them the key   and say sure? I just did that. She said nothing.  Well, there are some other benefits of that deal.   Uh, with all due respect, anything that we  any money that we talk about putting in over   $5 million is out of our pocket. Is that  correct? Okay. Um, 99 we think to use the   term we've given we've given the marina away.  We've already done that. If you think about it,   St. Joe's got 55 more years left on their lease.  So, we're going to double that. Well, we've   already done it. Somebody's scared to um we get  we're giving it away, which I disagree with that.   So 99 is the only way to I if I'm right if you're  going to sell anything they got you're selling a   lease hold you're not selling a uh free simple  and that's the only a bank would jump in is to   u have a 99 year and that's something to be  negotiated remember these are offers folks   they're not this is not set in stone nobody's this  is the first time we've been able to talk about   them so these are offers and so to to the mayor's  point we got to have that conversation yes ma'am   My name is Chris Moser, 311 Masselena Drive.  Thank you, Scott. Y'all should hire him. Um,  

I just want to know why it's five or 55. That just  seems to me like I I understand all or nothing,   but all these terms and with all five different  term sheets, there's a variety where sometimes   it's city 10, CMP 15, sometimes it's CMP to all  25. And it's it's not always with them funding   everything to get the 55-year term. And I was  just curious why sometimes it's a minimum of   five and others it's a minimum of 55 unless that's  just a type. Look up here. What who does what who   that's when the money comes in is what's who's  responsible for. Yes ma'am. Super refined. Super   refined. Super refined. Part of this clarity  is going to be able to bring the deal tighter   and and have less sort of uh they're trying their  best to find what we want and and they put a lot   of time in this and hopefully this brings the  deal closer and more navigable. Uh any other   discussion related to management. Let's keep  going. I appreciate everyone being nice tonight before upland. Yeah. So I think that's  why I'm not here. Yeah. Do we need to   talk about Marina supporting items? We kind  of kind of covered that already with finance,   marina supporting items being, you know,  infrastructure, uh, water, sewer, power,   FEMA, things we've kind of already gone over that.  Is there any other clarity that staff needs about   cost or estimates related to supporting items  that we need to discuss? The only thing I'd like   to point out is like this does not match what the  term sheets are for marina supporting items. The   marina supporting items on the term sheets are  including fuel um building fuel facility as well   as um ship store at the cost of the city. So I  definitely want fuel, but I'm kind of changing   my mind on a ship store. Amazing we have an expert  in front of I love it. That's all we have. Um any   other discussion related to supporting items? So  we should just add then some type of you know some  

type of shower bathroom facilities management  office for that matter. It might be better to   put I mean I have no idea. I've never designed  this. You might want to the bathrooms not so   far on the tea dock. I have my own idea instead  of taking utilities bring them all the way out   there. Do we agree that that is part of the city's  responsibility and infrastructure? The bathroom.   What I'm asking. Yeah. Um yeah I would say so. my  my personal opinion. I think that could be either   way. More importantly, whoever manages them, who  does the outkeep kind of stuff when we refine   their contract later. Yeah. You have something.  Uh for me, the upsets became a piece when we were   talking about the nonrevenue uh expenses and  I I put that into there as well. Um, so all of   that if we take it on, that's a direct expense  plus interest. They're never getting anything   back. Mhm. We make money off of not having to  do that. Now, to your point, it cost them more   to do that. So maybe that changes the spread.  I don't know. But at least from my perspective,   that's when Netflix became very uh important  because of that that that nonrevenue spread. So,   I just want us to be careful about that when we're  talking about the city doing that. We're just not   going to get it back, but we're going to have to  borrow money to them doing that. Scott, can you   come back up real quick? I got another question  for you. While you're making your way up here,   you know, you were kind of in this discussion  of what items affect even pricing of the marina   sweat slip. So, you may what I wouldn't want is we  build these showers and bathrooms and we're like,   "You're welcome." And they're like, "These  are not very nice. I would prefer tile over,   you know. So, who should design potential offices?  Who should design the shower and bathrooms? Who   should design the gas facilities? Is that us or  is that the manager? Um, it would be better if  

the fuel dock and the amenities like the showers  and management office was designed by us or we   were directly involved in it because we're the  ones got to make it work and we're the ones that   know it better than anyone else. So, whoever  runs it, whether it's us or someone else, they   should be the ones that oversee and bring you to  finally approve the design. I think that's a great   conversation. Thank you. Simple is best. Easy,  simple, clean. Doesn't have to be fancymancy,   but it has to have some elements like security and  things of that nature in it. And I I love that.   I would appreciate to an email just like your  the bathrooms that you have or maybe you have   plans that you say this is what I'm talking about  when I say restrooms. That would be helpful to to   staff as well. I'd be happy to share. Do you see  those usually combined the the manager's office   and the the other amenities? Yes, for the simple  fact it just reduces the the expense. You know,   you bundle it up into one building. Um, and  I'll be happy to share some plans that we've   just finished on another project that I think are  probably pretty good example of what can be done   at reasonable cost if there is such a thing.  Very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. All right,   I think we're moving on to Oh, anything else  related to We're going to take a recess. Yes.   Uh we're going to take a recess before the  uplands discussion. So 10-minute recess. We're back. We are back. All right. We're going to  start Upland's discussion,   which I think is why most people are here.

Um, do we want to go over the the timeline for Denver  Coleman? We'll start there for Uplands. Yep. For   ups. The D plan. Ah, the U. Yes. As far as the  discussion of planning the uplands, uh the city   has hired Dover Cole and they will be they have  they're under contract. Don't believe the date   for the first Sheret has been established, but the  hope is it would be the first part of December or   middle part of December. Um I believe the final  timeline was 4 months. Four and a half four and   a half months involve uh cherettes and planning  through what would make sense from a community   standpoint from an urban planning standpoint  uh use there at the marina. Also PFM it is been   retained to assist in that not in the planning uh  but in looking at revenue potential and also the   costs that are associated with the uh uplands uh  planning. So that's so that hopefully 4 and 1/2   months from now there would be a completed project  or as far as planning goes from from December.   Yeah. from December from do coal. So that's the  planning on the uh the uplands timeline. Do you   want to give us a minute? We've heard this 100  times but for the public uh what St. Joe has in   their lease. Yes. Just give us a brief overview.  When uh St. Joe, they invested $ 3540 million   um on the Hotel Indigo as well as the Harrison  restaurant that's combined. And in their lease,  

they have a right of first use. the right of first  for the remainder of the uh marina. The marina   parcel I think around 20 acres a portion of that  it's L-shaped is a lease to St. Joe's. So they   have from the Harrison restaurant to Hotel Indigo  they have the green space in between the Harrison   restaurant, Hotel Indigo and they have a portion  of the parking there. Um, as far as the remainder,   they felt for them to uh invest that type of money  uh right out of uh after the hurricane that they   and that they would need some protection as far  as what else goes there on the U marina. So, what   was agreed to was a right of first use. So, if the  city came up with a plan to build, I'll just pick   on aquarium. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea  or bad idea. I'm just saying just for an example,   an aquarium. Um that that plan would be presented  to uh St. Joe. And the question is, would you like   to do this aquarium St. Joe? St. Joe would then  and and they're specific. It's not just a notion   or an idea. It's actually thought out under the  terms of the lease. There's criteria about how   you know the information that you provide. St. Joe  would then look at it and they would say that's a   great idea. I think we'll go do it. Or they would  and we'll do it under the terms that you've kind   of worked out. or they would say that is a great  idea and we hope it succeeds but go forth and  

we sure excited about this aquarium being built  next door. Or they could say we really don't like   the idea of an aquarium for the following three  reasons and we'll propose an alternate plan. Now,   the city's not obligated to accept the alternate  plan, but the city is obligated in good faith   to consider and work on the alternate plan. And  there's a time period, I'm going to say 90 days,   but there's a time period where you work work  on the alternate plan. If that doesn't work out,   then the city can go back with uh the original  plan. So, that's how it's set up in the uh St.   Joe lease. Now in the draft of the lease and and  the the first draft of the lease here there was   created what I call a right of second use and um  there the if there is an uplands idea and uh and   so staying with the aquarium uh the if CMP said  well we propose we'd like to build an aquarium And   in fact, we'd like to do the aquarium and three  other things. And um they made that proposal   to the city. The city or somebody else came in  and made that proposal. I'm confusing it. Let's   say CMP. CMP would go to St. Joe. St. Joe would  either say, "That's a great idea. I'll do it." Or,   "It's a great idea. I hope CMP's successful." Or  here's another idea. If a developer unrelated to   CMP or St. Joe comes in and makes a proposal, you  could consider it. Then you go to St. Joe and ask  

him that those questions. St. Joe says, "We're not  interested." We then go to CMP under the original   first draft of the lease agreement. CMP would then  say, "We're interested. We'll do it." Or CMP says,   "We're not interested." But they would have the  same rights as St. Joe, but only after St. Joe   has exercised their rights. That's what we have  called a right of second use. So, and just as   more background because my initial reaction years  ago was, well, why do they get the front right of   first use on the marina? And in investment, what  you want to do is make sure that nothing comes   into negatively affect your investment. So, St.  Joe wanted to ensure and I'm I'm trying not to put   words in their mouth but ensure that if there was  ever developments on the marina that it would be   tasteful and something that would complement their  investment as well their historic level investment   on our marina. You know if someone else came in  and said city I'm going to build a Taj Mahal and   it's gold and and it's a beach outlet mall. Uh  they might not be super excited about that. Um   or anyone might not be super excited about  that. So it's a protection mechanism to keep   your investment uh moving forward. Uh so I just  want to kind of preface that. So explain go over   about a minute or so about the St. Andrews Marina  and the deal we have there with the first right   use. The St. Andrews Marina Marina there it's a  little bit different. Um they there is the entire   uh St. Andrews Marina property is leased, but  the use of it is restricted to what's in the   comprehensive plan. And I may wasn't thinking  that anybody would ask me that today, mayor. So,   I'm I'm I may get it right. may be a little bit  off, but there uh if there is a proposal for a use  

that's different than what's in the comprehensive  plan, uh the um SAMP, SAMP, St. Andrews Marina   Partners would come to the city and there would  have to be an adjustment to the lease to allow   such a use. St. Andrews Marina is um obviously not  as big. Uh there was discussion of some commercial   down there early on but that is not a right that  uh SAMP has in the lease agreement. So they uh did   agree to construct the St. Andrews Marina without  any uh right to build commercial on the marina   other than the ship store fueling things like  that. Something that would be similar to the St.   Andrews Marine approach would be uh option uh  term sheet four because as commissioner Lucas   pointed out cuz term sheet four there is not  any particular right to the uplands other than   the right of second use. And uh so that that means  that uh uh CMP would have to build the marina wet   slips and whatever is agreed to without knowing  that they would have the ability to do anything   on the uplands. And that's that's similar to  to the agreement at St. Andrews. Does that   help? That helps. I one one thing I I did want to  mention and it it kind of fits here as far as the   obligations of the St. Joe lease. This the city is  obligated to the community most importantly and to  

uh ourselves but also to St. Joe to rebuild the  marina wet slips as soon as reasonably possible.   And I know that it's been a long time and the  city's been working on it and I think they've been   as diligent as can be, but I did want to remind  everyone that that is in the lease agreement.   So Nevin, so so are you saying this this right of  second use matches the language that's in St. Joe   with just the word second instead of first? Yes.  Okay. And has that been agreed to inside of these   proposals? That language? Well, I I don't know.  You would have to ask CMP. I mean, as far as the   actual language, if it a term sheet is a concept.  It is like a memorandum of understanding. We just   agree that if we march down this path that we'll  develop final documents or a letter of intent in a   real estate setting. I look at Commissioner Hughes  and I think of real estate. A letter of intent   is not legally binding, but it is so helpful to  direct all the negotiations and the preparation   of the final documents along the terms of the  letter of intent. So it would be similar the   term sheet. So we I believe I mean I was happy  with the language. I wrote it but I don't know   for sure if CMP had signed off. So I so I bring  this up because you know as they say the devil's   in details the the like what was very important to  us at St. Andrews and at least with the community   there is that we would not be in a situation where  we're forced to do Upland's development and and   the way that it's reading right now from St. Joe  St. Joe can't force us to do anything other than   what we're obligated to which is repair the repair  of the marina. But if the if somebody came to us   with an idea for you know hey we want to do a  you know you know a 10-story condominium I'm  

just going to the last thing there's no there's  nothing that can force us to do that even if it's   allowed in the land use code. So that's why I  just pointed out to say hey the right of second   use can meet exactly what it does in St. Joe in  which there's no there's no rights to upland's   development other than the ability to to compete.  Um, but there's also an aspect of of wording   things in such a way that could, you know, allow  it to be a blanket approval. And that's what I was   that's what I was concerned about. But today, I  can go down there with allowable uses, go through   the process that he just said, ice cream shop.  The language in there does it's not a veto. It's   either they're going to do it or I'm going to do  it. And that's what he's talking about the same.   Correct. Yeah. And I believe what Commissioner  Street's question is, uh, St. Joe doesn't have an   absolute right to build an ice cream shop if they  decide to. They But they say we have, we need to,   right? No. No. Like if St. Joe said they wanted  to go build an ice cream shop, we could say no.   Yeah. We just say no. Or we would love one, but  you it's too expensive for you to do it. Okay. So,   it's an allowable use under our zoning and we  say no. Is that the way it works right now? Oh,   absolutely. That's fine with St. I mean it's fine.  It's fine under our agreement with St. Joe. It's   you it's a policy decision what this commission  wants to see on the marina. St. Joe says no and we   it's back to us as the city and it's an allowable  use and we say no to is that putting is that let's   take it off the marine and it's over here it's  allowable use and we say no. Are we saying no to   something that they're allowed to do and does that  put us in does it give does it create problems for   us by saying we're the land owner? Yeah, we're  that's the distinction. We're the land owner.   So St. Joe has an idea. We say we're just not  interested. So that that was a very important   part of the public process on the hotel and the  restaurant because the fear is a partner comes in  

and they can just build until no end is in sight.  And so by limiting it to the uses that you're   approving and the project that you're approving,  you're protecting yourself and your citizens from   some unknown variable that we don't know. I mean,  I can't predict what what somebody may want to   put there, you know, and so keeping that if that  language is the same as what's in the St. Joe 100%   I'm comfortable with it. It will always fall to  your elected leadership as far as what happens,   right? So, what if we all got out of the available  allowance? These are the things we don't want. Can   we do that? And then now you've taken out let's  say 75% of of the allowables. they got what's left   and that's all they're working with. Is that kind  of similar to what I'm talking about on the on the   um you when we're selling dirt, but does that  does that make sense? I think that's a start   to that could probably create some parameters,  but you also have to consider density. You have   to consider the like, you know, you could have  an allowable use and it could the density down   there is very dense. So, I mean, you know, are  we comfortable with a building of x amount of   heights? to do where you come. I think all of  those things are part of that conversation,   which is the great thing about doing the Dober  Cole process to get to an actual plan that hey,   we're comfortable with this and that we can show  to the citizens and saying, "Hey, this this makes   sense." I would just caution us to some reason  Panama City likes to get in there and tell people   what they're going to do all the time. Let's  find let's find the common ground and then let's   let's let it take off. I mean, we we've gotten  caught up in that a couple of times. Obviously,   I get a little antsy on that, but it um if we find  out if we find out what we don't want up front,   it makes negotiations and easier to put deals  together on the back side is all I'm saying.   Yeah. And I think citizens want enough of a voice  to tell us what they want. So, tell us what I   think we'll have more clarity in the uplands very  soon. That's the goal and the public input and all  

that all that good stuff. Any other discussion  rel to to uplands? We go to public comments.   All right, let's open up public comments. Yes,  sir. Mr. Pendo, come on down. Come on. Come on. Good evening. Good evening. Okay. Um, my name  is Frank Depinto, 801 West 13th Street, and um,   I have a preemptive sharet thought I'm going to  discuss. I appreciate the opportunity to address   the mayor and commissioners concerning the below  matter. I have a proposal. I request a motion in   the future from the mayor, commissioners  or commissioner to save the marina scenic   grassy parkway and t do pier from commercial  construction. that is ban commercial construction   from those two areas. I've discussed this before  and given you my thoughts about it. Uh city marina   partners CMP has sketched conceptual design  for three restaurants to be built on the grassy   parkway plus parking. It'll be a mess down there.  The construction of three restaurants and parking   by CMP on the Grassi Parkway will destroy the  Grassi Parkway and Tok Pier as hosting areas for   Panama City's annual Fourth of July celebration  one and two will destroy the Grassy Parkway as a   visual conduit for the 911 memorial and  panoramic viewshed of St. Andrews Bay.   The only fair way to judge the importance of this  proposal is to personally visit the marina. The  

marina is a place of scenic beauty, tranquility,  and patriotism, i.e. the 911 memorial.   The public uses the east and west sides  of the tea dock for walking, fishing,   visiting in their cars where they park, rest,  and view the bay. Also visit the 9/11 memorial.   The only thing the east and west wing of the  T dock needs are bike racks and nice benches.   not to start the commercial construction.  Hopefully the previous gift shop,   I guess you call that the ship store, right? Is  that that the lang? Okay. Will be built. I love   that place. It was really nice. You had swings in  the back. You can sit down, watch Peninsula. So,   I hope they built something like that again.  And there are plenty of restaurants downtown.   Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Don't be shy.  No. Come on up. Good evening. Uh John Schmidt,   728 Breaker Street, 32461. So I'm the  aquarium guy. See what I meant. Um I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Um I run a  uh local nonprofit, Emerald Forgotten Coast   Adventures. We take kids out to do marine science  uh in the in the field. Um and over the years   uh we have been encouraged by teachers uh bait  district schools to help facilitate something   downtown that we can all focus on to learn about  the environment and also provide revenue stream  

through tourism and that would be an aquarium and  marine science center. Um I wrote a letter back in   April of 2024. some of you weren't on board yet.  Um, pitching this idea and mainly pitching that,   um, as an environmental consultant for 40 years,  uh, I've permitted some massive infrastructure   projects. When you have a space like this that  everybody wants to use, um, you need a great   master plan to get the input from people and, um,  design something that meets everybody's needs. Um,   the Cherrettes will be a great start for that. Um  but you need to involve the stakeholders who are   interested in doing something there participate  ahead of those sharetses so that at the sharets   you actually have something to show people.  Otherwise it's me talking about doing the   aquarium forever. Um but I've not been sitting on  the sidelines. I met with St. Joe. Uh I just had   another meeting with Triumph Fund today. Um  we are proceeding with our conceptual plans.   Uh we're getting letters of support from  high political levels all the way down to   local teachers. Um we are we've engaged a marine  architect that designs aquariums in this country   um Cambridge 7 and we are creating concept  drawings, budgets, operation and maintenance   uh budgets as well as what the revenue would be  to the city. So I have to emphasize this is a   nonprofit and the reason why aquariums are usually  nonprofits is when you slap that 30 or 40% on most   of those facilities go bankrupt i.e. Gulf World  um because they start shaving corners on animal   husbandry. Um, this facility would be um permitted  by the American Zoos and Aquariums, which is the   highest standard in this country for getting  aquariums uh the drawings approved, your staff  

resumes, your operating manuals, and they audit  you consistently. It's not a cheap process, but   all the big aquariums have it. So, again, I want  to emphasize that I've offered to help facilitate   meetings with different stakeholders, and I'd be  happy to do it. I've done it for 40 years. Develop   master plan drawings. Then you have something  to show the people and you can get good input   that way. How big of a space you talking about  building? I'm sorry. How big the space? Uh we're   talking 3 to 4 acres, about 60,000 square foot of  exhibits. Uh it would move uh right now there's   about 70,000 students around St. Andrews Bay and  it would move all those students through that   facility every year. Again, what we do is no cost  to the schools. We take kids into the field. We   don't charge the schools anything. We make sure we  remove the barriers so these kids growing up can   learn about the bay and take care of it. They're  the next generation to do so. And most of the kids   we take out don't know the name St. Andrews Bay,  never been to the water, never touched a fishing   pole, and never caught an animal. That that's  a travesty to me. I mean, we've got to equip   that next generation to take care of what we have.  It's our economic driver. Um, uh, what do you what   would you be looking for from the city? You know,  a land lease. Okay. And Triumph goes to an entity.   Is it going to be a government? Is it going to  be the city? Is it It's going to be probably Bay   District Schools. So, we're working with Marco  Queen and the and the school board. Um, keep in   mind that uh I did find out today um I brought  up the question at your special meeting about   infrastructure. they will pay for infrastructure  improvements for this facility. So that's sewer,   water, electric coming down the streets and  into the facility. But as a as a guy who does   environmental permitting, if somebody puts in a  bathroom and then somebody puts in a restaurant  

and then somebody puts in an aquarium, you're  going to constantly dig up those roads unless   you size everything for that. And an aquarium  needs about 25,000 gallons of water a day. Um,   contrary to popular belief, they don't pull water  out of the bay. they make their own seawater. So,   uh it's a much more controlled environment today  than it used to be. So, again, I'd love to help.   Uh I'd love to see this successful. I'd love to  see an art park around the aquarium. Um you know,   we've got a lot of community interest to make the  most of that facility. You could put an aquarium,   an amphitheater, you could put green space,  you could put commercial space. There's a lot   of things you can do, but you've got to get the  people together who want to build those things   to work together to figure out that layout. Yeah,  I agree. I I would be willing to have a special   meeting called big amenity meeting where we have a  presentation of a amphitheater consultant or maybe   someone who operates one, he does a presentation  and whatever else anyone can dream. I mean,   fishing pier person. I mean, I don't know what  people are going to be asking for. Um but we   do need to have some quarter conversations even  before we go into the sharetses um potentially so   we can you know have those questions answered.  So you're saying the sharet is more beneficial   how if you have some master plan drawings to show  how the space would be utilized and then you can   have separate displays on what those uses are. You  don't have to have all the details now but you can   lay out the the space basically and how it would  flow. took two years for this meeting to happen.   So, it's probably not going to happen before  that. Great call. Me being super quick. It's   a great Where on the marina are you thinking? I'm  sorry. Where on the marina are you thinking? Um,   we were looking at the space where the civic  center was. So, that that square was about 3   point something acres. One thing that would really  help uh is to get a geo reference survey of that   area because there's a cadestral survey, but  you need geographic information and to put it  

into drawing software and and planning software.  So, um I did get a survey from um Jonathan, but   it's it's a old it's a really old survey. Thank  you, Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir. I had never met you   and I would have stuck with the ice cream machine  rather than uh but hopefully you didn't take that   as negative. I remember seeing your proposal and I  thought, "Wow, I'd get traffic down there. That's   something that this so I just wanted to didn't I  hope it all turns out." Thank you. Yes, sir. How   have you seen that? Have you seen uh communities  of the ring hole bring the the different folks   who are interested potentially interested in in  something like this? Um so what I've done uh in my   permitting era is we um talk to the politicians  identify who those developers are, who those   interest groups are. So you got a art community,  you've got uh people that are interested in   fishing, you got um you know developers who  are interested in commercial residential space.   Identify those people, pull them in a room.  You have the master plan, the clean slate,   so to speak. You lay out what the constraints  are for that property. In other words, where are   the utilities? How far do they go? What size are  they? How much do we need to do to improve them?   And then you start laying out options of what each  interest is willing to do. Um, and then from there   you create concepts and options and then that's  what you bring before the commission and the   public. Um, but that way you're not peacemealing  things. I mean, if you put in a ship store and a   bathroom next year and then somebody comes to put  a restaurant in 3 years from now, oh guess what,   the sewer is not the right size. The water  pipes are wrong. You know, it's you're just  

digging up constantly. Front beach row will be,  you know, just put some plastic down, pull it up,   put a new pipe in. It would be ugly. Thank you.  Thank you. Do we want to have uh how can we carry   this idea and discussion forward? What would be  special meeting? You can define it as a you know   I would consider this a public amenity like that  conversation. So maybe it's what public amenities   that we want to have on the marina. Um that could  be a way of having a discussion about that. That   would include amphitheater. That would include  aquarium, fishing peers, space ports, whatever.   Whatever whatever it is part of that conversation.  What what would it in the next 30 days,   what would be convenient for you? Um, so what  would help me is getting clarity on everything   you need in writing for the the concepts that  you want in the master plan. So in other words,   how much detail do you need for you as the  commission to feel comfortable that whatever we   throw out to the public is something that's going  to have enough information or you know that you   guys can feel comfortable with that they thought  it out well enough. So that kind of list would be   really helpful cuz that would give us a starting  point. I'd like to do a meeting like that like 30   days. Yeah, easily. That sounds great. I will say  this like and and this is not a any a real John's   conversation but it does communicate our marina  serve a larger purpose than just boats and you   know and public facilities. Um about a year and  a half ago there was a group of teenagers um from   Eagles Academy of some sort. I think it's over in  um in Glenwood Janice and most of the teenagers   that are there had never even been to one of our  marinas. I mean like they were teenagers. So I   mean they're 17 18 they had never even visited  a marina. So there's definitely a disconnect.   I appreciate and applaud what you guys are doing  to bridge that gap between between video games and  

actually getting out and enjoying the things that  we that are make us such a special place to live.   Yeah. One of the things we're working with the  district is is creating CTE programs and education   for kids who don't want to go to college. So,  I've taken most of the schools out in Panama   City proper and we have an underwater ROV and  we're teaching kids the technology because they   can leave and get jobs out of college 150 bucks  an hour. They can operate an ROV underwater. Um,   so that's where Triumph Fund is very interested in  making sure that what we create will be, you know,   beneficial to the education. Very cool. On top of  that, one of the things that we we see a lot of,   at least I see a lot of it, is um is people always  saying, "Hey, I wish it was something to do when   it's raining um on a rainy day." And and I like  aquariums and you know, for that reason for that   you can bring, you know, children from infants all  the way up. Mhm. And it's it's there's something   for everybody. So, thank you. Thank you. Um  so, special meeting. Well, I just respectfully   I think that might be counterproductive to  what we're trying to do with do coal. I mean,   we're bringing them in. We're paying them all  this money to consider the whole thing. So,   I just Yeah, I would lump it all together. That  would be my recommendation, Mr. Mayor. Well,   I would ask Let's ask Victor Dover what's the  most uh Say that again, sir. Ask Victor Let's   ask Victor Dover what he kind of weigh in on  that. We can do that. Weigh in on stakeholder   when the best one is and we'll communicate. We  can we can work with them. Totally. So, give us   uh you know 48 hours, 72 hours. We'll get back to  you. All right. Anyone else on Upland? Yes, sir. I just want to This is Joe Pospicil 3208 West  6 East Street. I would just like to say that   whatever is done on the Uplands, I and the people  that I know would prefer something like that,  

something like that, amphitheater, aquarium,  whatever for for everybody rather than   residential. I just don't think that the Panama  City Marina is a good place for people to live   because then they then they're just there and  uh it'll they they'll they'll get entitled,   they'll want slips, etc., etc. So, let's  keep residential out. Let's make it for   everybody that lives in Panama City. Thank  you. Thank you. Anyone else? Uplands. Yes, sir. Hey, Derek Thomas, 1100 West 10 Street. Um,  things that concern me is on the plans where   they're showing the development of the Uplands,  the uh, parking right when you first come to the   marina on the right hand side as you're entering  in there. There's a little tiny parking area   for the public. That would be one of the areas  that's going to be built up if it's developed.   And there's not a whole lot of parking for the  people down there right now if they start putting,   you know, filling up the uh the wet slips. And  right now you have the green space that you can   bring out all the vendors that come out at the  parades. I mean, not the parades, at the at the   fireworks and stuff. So that's that's all going  to go away if you put in too much density and you   don't have any parking. And there in the plans it  shows an area along the side where the boat ramp   is for boat slip I mean a boat trailer parking but  there's not a whole lot of spaces for actual cars.   I mean I noticed a lot of the plans when they  make these plans they don't show on the plans   all of the cars that are going to need all the  spaces for all the cars that are going to be used   in that plan. So, in the end, you wind up with too  much stuff and too small a space and it's just not   functional. If you had I love the idea of having a  a you know a marina, you know, a uh aquarium. Yes,  

thank you. So, I I would much rather have that  that it could be used by everybody and then   there's lots of other places where you can put  in more high density. Also, if the city is the   one paying for the plumbing for whatever is put  there, that's going to be a lot more intensive   if it's going to be high density housing rather  than if it's going to be just one or two small   stores. So maybe having a place for the public to  go to the bathroom and then a ship store where the   people that have slips at the marina can go to  the bathroom and wash their clothes and shower   and then keep everything else as lightly as less  densely populated as possible. Thank you. Thank   you. I think we all agree that we we love public  amenities and beautiful things and it's always a   question of how do we pay for them. Um, you know,  amphitheaters cost lots of money and upkeep and   uh and anytime there's a cash injection from the  city, it comes from the tax dollars. And so we   always want to balance that. And so part of the  shrutz in my opinion is to ask the public, what   amenities do you want? And then for us to say,  well, how are we going to pay for them? Um, and so   that's a conversation I'm looking to have. Anyone  else? Uplands, come on up. Judy, come on up. Yes, ma'am. Judy Stapleton again. You  all know how I feel. Um I think that   the marina is the greatest treasure we  have. Um that is something that people   see and they want to develop. And I  think we have to be very careful. Um,

the city needs revenue. The city needs  money coming in. I understand that. Um,   you know, some of us are terribly simple-minded.   I would love to see a marina park. It  isn't going to happen. I know that. Um, one of my major concerns is residential. It It doesn't matter whether that residential  is temporary. If somebody is coming in and   they're renting it for a week or a weekend  or if you are selling it or whatever,   people develop an ownership of property. They  do I mean it's I I'm here. This is mine for   now. And the people who are not using  it begin to understand this isn't mine.   So there to me there would be a concern for the  residents if you the Panama City residents about   giving away which is what I feel like you are  doing if you put residential down there. Um I   I don't see any reason unless all you want to  do is make money. That's all I can see. Um, I wish I had written all of this down because  there's more. Um, as little as possible. That's   what as little as possible. Keep it as natural  as possible and maybe you can make some money  

on it. Sorry. Good comments. Thank you. Anyone  else? Anyone else about Uplands? Okay. Any other   discussion up here about Uplands? All right,  Mr. Zimmerman, do you want to recap that or   how would you like to move? Sure. As far as  a a recap on the Uplands item, let me find it   over here. There. Thank you. Yes, sir. I think it  may a recap actually may be the next item is CMP.   CMP and it might be useful to make sure that I  I stated uh the correctly as far as the right   of second use and and ask them if uh option four  term sheet 4 is a viable option and is that did   I understand it correctly? I think in but as far  as uplands go we have do coal coming in obviously   we have a major stakeholder that has a idea as  far as the aquarium contact do over coal try   to determine how these major stakeholders get  mixed in the in the pot as far as the planning   process goes awesome you guys want to come up  partner discussion Cooper Cooper Marina partners Good evening. William Harrison, 101  Harrison Avenue for CMP Partners. Um,   let me address a couple of questions that have  come up uh from some of the speakers tonight. Uh,   the gentleman spoke about the restaurants  on the T do. We haven't drawn anything.   We haven't drawn any restaurants. We haven't  drawn any buildings. We have not drawn anything  

uh for uses uh on the marina except for  the wet slips. Um there are a lot of   drawings out there that uh have gone  back for decades. Uh, as y'all know,   uh, there was a plan, I believe, in 1983, as I  recall, when I was on the DIB, that was on the   city was so excited to finally have a website. And  so, the kind of the lead banner on there was the   uh the marina redevelopment plan from 1983.  And it stayed on there for many years. Um and you know there there are a lot of different ideas  uh about what to do out there. Um and and what we   have tried to do with the city from the beginning  is to finally have some local neighborhood people   work with the city to find some solutions for the  Marina. uh if it's not clear uh to those listening   and and y'all know this um we proposed sharetses  at the very beginning of the process. We wanted   cheretses at the very beginning and our proposal  was to have those sharetses a year and a half ago   uh to avoid the problem that we have right  now. the pressure that you're under and that   all of us feel 7 years later not having an  operational marina. And so we're trying to   to mash together the pressure that is on all  of us to have a functioning marina with what   are we going to do for operational uh feasible  uh upland and and compatible use with the marina   itself. At the end of the day, there is going  to be something built on the marina upland. I  

don't know what it's going to be. As we have  told you many times publicly and privately,   we have nothing up our sleeves about something  that we want to do out there. To Miss Stapleton,   and I I don't know her. I know Sid Stapleton. I  don't know if you're related to Sid. Okay. Um and   and I appreciate her reasonableness about all of  it. The danger for all of us is what do we build   out there that is going to work? You know, I it is  distressful to me uh in looking at the 4 and 500   block of Harrison Avenue. I've been on Harrison  Avenue myself for about 25 years and there were   a lot of many many of those years. Uh I could hit  a golf ball if I could hit a golf ball. I could   hit a golf ball, you know, down towards history  class and it wouldn't hit hit a car, you know,   if I could drive it that far. And so I appreciate  those improvements, but the 4 and 500 block are   are vacant and they need help and and as soon as  we take the fences down, I think it'll help them.   But but downtown, as fun as it is that I had there  this weekend and most weekends, um just because   we built something on the marina doesn't mean that  it's going to work. And just because, for example,   to to her point about residential, I I don't  have any particular interest in residential   or non-residential. Um but residential most  of the time works. It's a great view. It's a   great location. And one thing that we have always  needed in downtown are daily trips. We need daily   activities from people for all the businesses that  are there. And I understand her concern about,   you know, people, you know, claiming their space  and and as we have talked about that before, there  

are different ways to deal with that. And one is  they don't have, you know, their their front door   is not on the ground level. Um, but ultimately  the commission and the community may decide,   you know, we don't want um residential  down there. Um, not that I'm pushing it,   but I want something that's going to work. Now, I  I don't know if all of y'all ever got your haircut   at Carwell's Drugs or if you went to the bookstore  down there and No, I didn't. You didn't. Well, you missed out, Janice. Um but you know those  those businesses down there struggled my whole   life, my whole childhood. Nothing down there  thrived and the four winds brought in the   Quantis Club and Rotary and all those kind of  folks to have banquetss to try to make things   work. So just because it's a nice view and a good  location and water all the way around doesn't mean   that it's going to work. And and so what we have  offered in in this this uh term sheet one is us   going and attracting money to come in and try  to build something there that works. We have   not proposed to you or to the public particular  uses. We're happy for the public to define what   those things are. Um but you know the the kind  of marrying together how it is that we get here   uh in building the 50 slips doing that as quickly  as possible and being able to marry up with this   backwards approach of doing the cherettes as  we're trying to I mean it's almost like we've   got to start construction of this house and so  while you're building the walls we're going to   go figure out what it's going to look like, you  know, when we're finished, it just doesn't make   any sense. But I realize that we're we're we're  all out of time and and the community is is out of  

patience. And so, you know, what we're trying to  do with you, and you may not want to do this, the   community may not want to do this, is we're trying  to have a collaborative plan with the with the   city commission, with the public to say, let's all  work together. And and I wish all 35,000 people   in the in in our city would come in and say, "This  is what I would like. This is what I would I would   really enjoy." because we need those people to  support the marina and whatever it is that we're   doing downtown. Unfortunately, we won't get a lot  of those people. Um and and so whatever comes out   of those ideas, we still have to run it through  whether it is financially feasible because it may   not be. Um, yeah, myself, I would enjoy having  an aquarium and without, you know, dissecting   all of that, it's going to be very difficult to  make that work for a lot of reasons. and and just   listening to that, just sitting over here hearing  the conversation, I'm concerned that it's going   to be a 6 to 12 month uh consumer of time and  resources that ultimately is not going to work   out. And I hate that for for that gentleman and  and for the community that has hopes on that. Um   because I don't think Triumph will pay for that.  And you know all of us you know um time marches   on and and when decisions are not made uh that is  a decision. And so the opportunity that we have   presented to you is our absolutely best effort  in trying to do what I believe this community has  

been trying to do since 1983. um the all of the  commercial activity, you know, for the gentleman   that was speaking about the not liking the  restaurants that we didn't propose the the very   first photograph that was put up there were all  of the uses that were on the T dock. Um you know,   my whole childhood, as we have told y'all, it's  aboutund 90,000 or 200,000 square feet that's been   down there. And if if you want to pull the Supreme  Court decision from 1957, all of that was acquired   on both marinas for Upland activities to to create  revenue so that the city could afford to pay the   bonds back. So, you know, when when we look at  these different options, you know, I have some   preferences that I like, you know, some, you know,  versus others. Y'all have different priorities.   We respect the you know the the challenges that  you have in making these decisions. Uh at the end   of the day, what these documents represent is our  best effort to give you a bunch of options that   that we have just heard from you over 6 months  that are possibilities and and your priorities,   you know, may change and ultimately whether you  put money into it or you don't, whether you take   risk or you don't, whether you want to make money  off of it or you don't, or whether this is the   time to talk with the community about developing,  you know, what happens on the marina. Is this a   good time to do that? Now, the the the committee  went through a shorette process with Nova Cole   uh in in October of of 2019. That is lost. You  know, to Janice's point, um from not remembering,   you know, two years ago, we don't remember the  Cherret that was a week long from Dover Cole from  

2019 that that laid out the what the community  wanted that week. And that snapshot was mixeduse,   commercial, residential, food and beverage, public  spaces, public access, you know, all those kinds   of things. And so we're following up on that. My  concern is that if we don't move forward with this   opportunity. I mean, I I really believe, guys and  and girls, that we're we're at a an inflection   point in really being able to do something here  where we can marry all these things together.   And my concern is that if your decision is we're  going to move forward with the wet slips and we're   not going to do anything else, then the $120,000  that you're fixing to spend on do coal is going to   go the way of the the October 2019 plan and it's  going to go the way of the 1983 plan and however   many plans that there were in between. And then as  time rolls on, then some other commission is going   to come in and say, "Well, you know what? we need  to study this again and we need to think about,   you know, I really have a good idea to put a  minor league baseball team out here and I think   that would be a great thing. We went through  that too, uh, where the Indigo is now. And so,   you know, delay and not making a decision and  and leaving the concrete out there the way that   it is and not having a civic center and and just  having temporary fences, that that's the decision.   and and and maybe you don't have um maybe this  isn't the opportunity that you want to take,   but we're trying to offer you opportunity that  we think is going to work and we're willing to   we're willing to take those risks. Um and and and  frankly if if you do something less than that,   what I would like to take out of this tonight  is some clarity. You know, because what we've  

been doing is is whacking at the doing the  whack-a-ole thing, trying to figure out what   the priorities are. And as you respond to what  you're hearing from your constituents, I know   those priorities can change and and uh you know  there's a discussion about phasing uh and mayor I   understand your concern about sizing and and Scott  did a good job of of addressing that. But I would   also, you know, comment that permitting is a big  challenge and and I would not recommend having two   different permits. And so it's much easier to move  forward uh on the permits for the whole thing. And   then if we need to modify for the east basin, it's  easier to modify the permit than it is to start   from scratch. Um can we answer any questions to  help you get clarity? Um yeah, I I would you know,   we we have not tonight. I I appreciate the public  input and and man, I wish we'd have done this so   very long ago. Um, and I'm I'm just so sorry  that that has not happened, but um, you know,   we haven't really gone through or y'all haven't  really gone through all these term sheets. And I   know that it's it's painful and we've spent  a bunch of time with it and it's really um,   difficult, boring stuff to go through and I don't  intend to walk through all of it because I don't   think everybody really has appetite to do that.  But but if you have questions about the different   the differences in these different uh term sheets,  I I'll be happy to to address that or Cooper   can or somebody, you know, on our team. Um we we  avoided making a big presentation as part of these   minutes to say, you know, well, Scott's got 42  years worth of experience in running marinas. As  

you can tell, he is just a wealth and and a depth  of knowledge. And so all the different aspects of   the of the people on the on our team and some  who are not here, you could not there could not   be a better team of folks, I really believe, than  the team that is assembled before you right now.   And I would hate for our community to lose the  opportunity um to to pull as much as you can out   of this opportunity to move forward. Uh and and  and I want to say that we trust the commission's   uh decisions. Uh as far as Zeppelin uses, we trust  the the public. We live in all the neighborhoods   just like you do. So, we know what what people  think and and uh you know, but at the end of the   day, as we go through that, you know, we don't  want to put a ferris wheel out there that's not   going to work. You know, we don't want to put  something out there that you're going to have   to put money into or it's going to make the whole  thing fail. Uh and so, you know, we're happy to   go through the modeling after the cherettes and  figure out this is the mix of the things that we   think uh will do best. But if you're not ready  for that and and um and and you want to steer   away from that, then then we respect that decision  as well. For you guys have done a marvelous job   uh hundreds of thousands of hours on every term  sheet. I completely understand. For me, I have   a hard time um committing square footage on the  marina until public has inputs after the sharet   like we want like you wanted from the beginning.  I have a hard time currently um picking a finance   method until we have those discussions and those  options are brought to us. And so I'm happy to   have as many meetings as we feel the schedule  should be or maybe staff should say, "Hey, we're   ready to have that next discussion." They can call  us up for a special meeting where we do this more  

often to keep building momentum forward. Um I just  can't vote tonight on on these term sheets. my   personal opinion. Mayor, real quick, if you if you  if you had some vote in theory or subject to those   meetings, uh we all agree that we want to get to  the mill slips and that's the only way that that's   going to happen. We got to remember that gap. Um  but really I wanted to ask man just said he wants   to spend up all of his money on our asset. Does  it get any better than that on financing? that   I that's my I'm confused as to why we're going to  wait on that. I get it. But he wants to spend all   his own money. We we make we put that much money  in Mars. Well, yeah. I could I just can't commit   to him building it and being like, "Thank you for  building until I know and put out for competitive   that it doesn't what it costs us and those  options of us doing it." I can't weigh the   options until I know what options we have. I have  a question. You put out competitive bid. Are we   under any agreement with them? we that that would  prohibit us from going back out to bid. Uh well,   we've never gone to bid. It was a request  for proposal, you know, process and so the   selection was based upon credentials and ability  and proposal. Um, right now we did have an interim   agreement and I did not ask William if there  are any remaining obligations, but the interim   agreement dealt primarily with the fuel and with  permitting. And permitting I know is has been on a   stop because the initial permit exemption CMP did  obtain for the city with the city's application   but the overall permitting is the design hasn't  been completed. So I don't believe your uh CMP is  

doing permitting work. I don't believe I believe  the fuel was all done. hopefully whatever obl   financial obligation has been taken care of. So  I don't believe there's an interim agreement now.   However, uh they have been selected pursuant to a  request for proposal process and that if you were   to stop and do something different such as bidding  it, I believe it would be appropriate to kind of   just terminate that. And uh I don't believe  they there's a legal issue in terminating it,   but I don't know that CMP or the city would find  it useful to set them off to the side and wait   while we go bid and do they bid or not bid or  what, you know, does do maybe the Gormans bid,   but yet they're part of the ownership group. It's  it creates confusion. And so I think it might be   if that's the direction we might think about not  tonight hopefully but we might think about uh   terminating uh relationship and then uh proceeding  that direction. So mayor one of the things that   we do a lot a lot of military come in we make we  make things subject to them physically youing a   profit you're doing something. So they'll be under  contract 20 days and then that person comes in and   says yes or no. So the idea is then I'm going  to think out loud here. How do we get the slips   going? Have a deal in have an idea, an agreement,  theory that's subject to all these things that   we're talking about have to be agreed on cuz I'm  not going to go spend my money on something that I   don't I know that I want. Um we've been throwing  around, you know, footing out for men, other   partners. Um and that makes it even harder if I'm  in that position. Is there a way to find that and  

make it all subject to it's really not a deal, but  it is a deal. Okay, that's contingent upon the the   the public input. Um because otherwise we're not  going to get we won't start on slips unless we're   paying for them in December. I don't think so. And  that I'd like to get there. Yeah. Um Tom, Nether,   what is the fastest timeline to build the slips,  putting them out to bed, get getting the first   50 slips designed and then putting out to bed and  then for for pricing. Okay. The uh two approaches,   city approach, CMP approach. If we had an  agreement with CMP, then once the design is   in hand, they could start construction. I mean I  I believe because it were the permits in hand as   far as once again it's an exemption the 50 slips  they wouldn't start the whole thing but they would   start uh the the initial 50 slips if the city were  to do it get the design mid December prepare bid   specifications get it bid out by mid January allow  30 let's say 45 days uh so in March 1st of March,   you could award constru a construction contract.  Obviously, line up, get your financing down during   that, you know, time frame. So, March 1, middle  of January would be the difference between the two   approaches. Just thinking out loud, everything  working. Yeah. I wish we had done a shrutz two   years ago. have been so much clear of what the  public wants because I again I think there'll be a   trade-off where you know everyone wants the splash  pads and everyone wants the fishing peers and the   amphitheaters and all those things and it has to  be a way to be paid for and I think after that   session we will then be able to go to the public  and say hey if you want this here's the cost and  

we could in trade with land leases pay for it this  way and I think they'd be much more accepting of   square footage and understanding having these  sort of conversations in early spring. Um,   building towards a consensus of of what the  public wants. Um, and again, I wish we had   done this two years ago. Mayor, is your concern  uh on the Upland going back to the square footage   that was there from 1957 until 190 something?  Yeah. I mean, my I have a saved um article that   my grandfather had. I think I sent you a picture.  Yeah. uh back in like the '60s that talked about   the the rent share on the on the marina was saved  and he actually left a little note on it. Um and   so I'm in I square footage scares me, makes me  apprehensive, but also the spaces uh you know how   the buildings are shaped and where they go and  what's a public space, what's a parking space,   what's a grassy area, those are all concerns from  the public. So square footage makes me nervous.   um any sort of commitment uh that when we go  into the sharets that we're not having unbiased   opinion from the public. That's my concern. Well,  we're clearly y'all are running the sharetss and   and we're in favor of that and I I'm happy to go  fishing whenever it is that that you do that. Um   you know, but um you know, I I guess you know to  me what is the next step after that? And so if   the decision is okay, we're going to move forward  with slips only. And so then the next, you know,   the next thing that's going to happen are the  let's say the Cherrettes, you get a report back,   say January, you know, there, you know, you have  a meeting January, February, figure out what what   to do with that. And then at what point do you  come back in and say, "Okay, this is what we're   going to do on the uplands." And so um you know  we have proposed as Nevin said the the right of  

second use which follows exactly what's in the the  St. Andrew's lease except there is a simultaneous   notice so that it can go to both at the same time  instead of it you know being concurrently. Um the   uh or excuse me consecutively the um so then the  the process from the city's perspective is to say   okay well we've heard and we want we know all that  we want to do and so then what what is your next   step after that? And so then is the city going  to advertise for developers to come in and do   all that and you go through that process of peace  mealing you know whatever that is or is the whole   thing put out there or then do you come to St.  Joe and CMP and say, "Okay, this is what the   whole thing is, you want to go do all this, you  know, and so I'm trying to figure out, you know,   cutting off months here so that we don't end  up in, you know, next fall. Okay, we finally,   you know, have a plan for what we're going to do  because the time just passes so quickly." It does.   It's been 6 months I got elected. It's been feels  like it was yesterday and a thousand years ago at   the exact same time. Um to me it seems like we  should be having these sort of discussions of   um management and building in January after or  sort of when the bids are coming back. Financial   financial talks and construction talks and  management talks should be happening February when   we have num we have a we have a design and we're  putting them out to bit of what the thing cost us   to build in my opinion. and then upland upland  development and how that ties into potential   um uh minds being built. Um it happens after  sharets. Um I don't want to slow down the 50   slips. Um so I would be in favor of us and this  is the whole whole point of having conversations   about financing. How do we potentially build the  first 50 slips if we're not taking on long-term  

debt? um and and borrowing those first 50 and  maybe putting and putting those out to bed and   you guys are bidding on that and we decide maybe  later that the rest of this the rest of Marina   is built out by CMP but we don't have to make  a blanketed decision for everything all right   now in my opinion. So, I'm trying to find a way to  break it into small decisions. The best and that's   exactly my question that I asked you. We we agreed  on the slips and put something out there that   says we we move forward and it's a year and a half  we're going to do anything up there. Behind you is   where the uh city marina I mean city hall and and  library were. Yeah. There's more square footage   now than there was there, but it's it looks pretty  on that side. Totally. I I I honestly the feedback   I get from the public is not I need the slips  right now. Go. It is, hey, we've waited a long   time. Make sure this deal is right. That's that's  and I'm not scared of square footage. I mean,   you can see the buildings there. It's all in how  they're laid out. I didn't lay these buildings   out. Um but I think Dover Cole might do a  beautiful job of saving the green spaces and   public spaces and finding a place for buildings.  Um and I'm just advocating for across the none   of that's decided. We're we we're keeping that in  play. Yeah. I think if we don't do anything soon,   it's going to be next year. This time we're going  to be sitting here to be honest with you cuz I   can't get okay with borrowing money. Let's be  honest with you. I think regardless of anything   we decide tonight, I'm going to be pushing  right alongside everybody to be construction   in December. What? So construction in December.  Um I'm on that same that same path. And I I think   what I'm hearing Allan saying is we're trying to  create the space to actually go through a public   process on the uplands. We're saying it the same  time, same way. I'm saying it differently. Saying   the same thing. It's just put Well, I I think I  think yes and no. Um from the aspect of like it   goes back to what I'm what I'm asking as far as  like what are we committing into this LOI or this  

this this term sheet as far as upload because what  if it comes back and public doesn't want anything?   Like I'm not willing to go and tell say if if  we come up with that idea and that's not on   us. Yeah. If it's if we go build it 100% on us.  You got a man who's ready to spend his money on   our stuff and if it doesn't come back he's out.  We're not we got we got a marina wet list but we   don't have enough. That's the hard part. It's hard  for me to connect the dots on is we're saying the   same thing. We're putting a lot of time in between  that. We're having charetses. We're talking to the   public. All that I want. If it were tomorrow,  I wouldn't want that. You know, if we decide,   you talk about full steam ahead, if it's three  months, two months, nine months, as long as I'm   able to explain the deal incrementally and able  to defend it and someone says, "Why'd you make   that decision?" The time is less important than  the ability for me to explain for the public and   for the public to understand, right? And and this  current this time, again, this we're just we're in   a situation we don't a huge fan of. We ran Schutz  two years ago, but I I I'm unwilling to proceed   forward with a large coupled agreement of of all  these decisions in one suite. It's too big for   me. So So Upland creates a completely different  dynamic. Even what William was just saying is   like, okay, the language matches the St. Andrews  lease on Upland. Well, the St. Andrews Marina is   zoned differently than the downtown marina. 104.  So what that means is all of those access to those   abilities to build and construct are unlocked on  the new zoning. Whereas in St. Andrews they're   restricted by public institutional except we can  say what we're not going to allow. All of y'all   are saying that this is all going to be decided  to all change. We're going to move through that   the same process that we did. I mean the same  process. It's move through it the same process.   Well what I what I was drawing attention to is St.  Joe does not have a right to construct anything  

else than what they already constructed. And that  is the piece that creates the complication without   going through a public process. I'm not willing to  commit to a public imp or to an improvement on the   marina without getting through that full process.  At least that's me. I don't think anybody's asking   you to commit to that. Well, that there's three  of these term sheets that do. Yes. Term term sheet   four does not. Term sheet four does. You're  right. It does. No, it just talks about their   right of second use, which the second use is why  I go to that in definition. If it matches the St.   Joe lease, then yes, I'm comfortable with that. If  it matches the St. Andrews one, both matches what   you said. Yes. Yeah. So, for for me, I I like out  of all the ones, I like that one the best. Um the   problem is we haven't closed the door on can we  and should we finance it and I don't I mean the   CRA could bar we got I mean that that's an hourong  discussion of the mechanisms we have and should we   buy make a motion that we don't do that and see if  I can get a second and I'm 100% against financing   this thing will we I want to have a you're going  to be involved in the financing regardless because   they're asking for conduit and CDD financing.  Okay. But us being financing to build something to   create that I mean that's a lot of money. That's a  lot of money. We are involved in the financing in   this deal differently than what we are in the St.  Andrews deal. I know nothing about the St. Andrews   deal. The St. Andrews deal has no obligation  of lending in it. Will we offer it? Sure. If we   can get a better deal as a result, but there's no  requirement for it. This has a requirement for it.   So we are involved in subject two is not required.  Subject two is about if this if it works out and   we agree they can move forward. If it doesn't work  out, they took the risk and built docks. That's   exactly what it it does not require any upland  uh building under that under that term. Yeah. So,   we may find out the staff may come back to us  in two weeks and say, "All right, let's have a  

meeting and we talk about financing and we close  the door on our financing it and we move forward   with them doing it again." That's conversation.  That's where I was 90 days ago. this this whole   deal depends upon financing both for them and for  us. And so what my goal was at the end of 60 days   to have a defined financing plan. We do not have  a fi defined financing plan as of yet and we're   at 90 days now. But if you guys remember what we  talked about before we started down this path 60   days number one thing and I I reiterated over and  over again was we need to understand and know how   this is being financed. I asked in July what's our  goal? We haven't we didn't we didn't answer that.   I asked in July to have sheretses. We didn't do  it. We also all agreed that we weren't going to   pay. We weren't going to manage. We weren't going  to build on that on anything. That's flipped on   its head. Interest rates are good. They're getting  better. They're not great. I'd be interested to   see what is the new PFM going to include the  non the nonrevenue expenses that 10 million in   that in their setting. I'd be interested to see if  what that does to that percentage. It was around   9% return with 200 slips. And at the time, the  cost of money was a little over 7%. Let's call   it 7 and 12. Anybody that understands numbers  in this room, they're not going to take that   risk for point and a half. So, I'm interested to  see that as well. Okay. But that's not my money.   Okay. That I'm interested. I'm just want to see  how bad it gets because that what we're talking   about that would lean us into exactly us building  it and then we're going to take the risk of of   the smaller of the of the smaller uh spread. And  that's I I think that's a great discussion to have   when staff has all those things back to us and the  public can come they can hear all the options like   they did tonight and voice their opinion. They  can we can put it out to the public should we   borrow it and let them know what's happening.  Um, so they're more informed. Could I offer  

something very quickly? The way the St. Andrews  Marina lease works on financing, it says that the   city may in its sole discretion determine to um do  conduit financing. It doesn't say it those words,   but that's pretty much what it is. It's an option,  but it's an it's a decision the city makes. If   if you're interested, we could explore with CMP.  Would they be willing to accept language like that   in the agreement downtown where the city may once  I mean it it would in good faith and that's the   obligation in the St. Andrews it that the city  would in good faith consider it that the city   would in good faith consider conduit financing  also would in good faith consider CDD financing.   I'm not that you need to make a decision on that  tonight, but that's the type of thing where if we   got close, then you could say to staff, well,  why don't you see if you can work out aou or   or something that's non-binding but a little  more definitive. That's that's all. When you   say CDD financing, that's community development.  Yes. Yes. So that's creating a district for the   marina on the marina just like you have at Sweet  Bay. That's correct. Right. And so then the land   is used as security for that debt. And so then  you can get much lower cost of funds, you know,   which is beneficial to the city, you know, and and  Josh, I agree with you a,000% on those 60 days on   what we thought we were going to get done during  that 60 days. And that's not what happened. Uh,   you know, and and when you brought it up about  the 50th day or so, our understanding was exactly  

what yours was. So, we were going to come back  and look at all those different options. And so   we had the meeting with with Joel Tindle and and  as Nevin alluded to earlier, this is, you know,   what he said was, you know, the interest rates  are a little bit better, but the the coverage,   you know, rate is higher because it's a risky  development. And so at the end of all of that,   what washes out is, you know, we can go borrow  money from the bank about at the same amount or   we go to private equity folks and they're like, I  want a return on my investment. So they're going   to charge as much if not more than what the  bank does. And so that's how we got into the   discussion about the CDD. And so when we had  the meeting in July when when we proposed a   term sheet at that point, what the commission was  interested in doing at that point, we're not going   to talk about the term sheets. We'll talk about  three things. Uh the term Upland uses and Cooper uh term Upland uses moment he needs your help.  Um anyway, there there was a third item. Uh oh,   it it had to do with financing. Um and so we did  we couldn't get to a term sheet in July, whatever   that date was, Jonathan, that you referred to. And  so now here we are knocking on the door, December,   and we still can't talk about a term sheet. And  so, you know, I I I I hear the concerns about the,   you know, the, you know, the the grassy area out  there that never existed until everything was   torn down. But, you know, internally, what we  talk about doing, we've got to deal with storm   water. And a better place for that grassy area is  down there on the end of the T dock. If you really   want to be by the water and you want to fish and  be on the grass and run the dogs and and really  

enjoy sitting out there and taking it all in,  that's where you have the un unobstructed view.   And so a way to address that is for the commission  to say we want x number of square feet of green   space or this percentage. You know, there are  different ways to to get there and address those   concerns. Um and we have not run modeling on each  one of these. uh Commissioner Street and you know   the cost of running modeling of these different  financial options. It cost us about 10 or $15,000   to run a model to see exactly how this is going  to play out. We have already done that for a lot   of different options that the commission has asked  us to do and and we can't go explore those things   at that expense when we don't have a clear enough  direction about where we're going. So, um I'm not   sure how this got up on the screen, but well, I  asked because y'all brought up square footage and   green space. I want to show you green space. Okay.  So, this is one of the you know, y'all recognize   this as the u you know, the post office and the  the amphitheater at at Seaside. And so around that   are all kinds of mixed uses. I don't know what  the square footage uh is of of all of that, but   um there are a lot of really interesting ideas  of things that can be done out there. Um that   we want to work with you and we want to work with  the public to figure that out. Is there a way to   get there between here and there? we've provided  you an option uh on on exhibit B to say fine let   us move forward on this and just and and so this  is a self-executing option to where when we finish   with those 50 slips that we pay for then it opens  up 50,000 square ft of Upland. We're not saying   what that has to be and we're not even saying  where it has to be. We can work that out in in  

the long-term agreement, but it gives us some  assurance that there is additional revenue to   help us deal with the risk that we're taking uh  in in developing the wetlands. Um if 50,000 isn't   the right number, um you know, we you know, we  can talk about that. Um, but the 300,000 that   scares everybody, you know, comes from us taking  the drawings that were created by the city. We   had no involvement. We haven't drawn anything. And  just taking the square footage of those as best we   could tell uh in in measuring it out. That's how  we came up with 300,000. there was 190,000 there   that was, you know, torn down, you know, by the  city in in the in the early 1990s. And then with   the civic center about 80,000 square ft. So, you  know, we're not coming up with crazy ideas that   are just coming out of the the thin air. You  know, we're we're trying to respond to and we   are responding to to what you're sending to us. uh  and and just I want the public to understand that,   you know, we're not on some land grab at 300,000  or at 200,000. Um so if you want a particular   green space, then then say that that's what you  want. There are ways for us to move forward. I   would encourage you to move forward. And to your  point about getting bids and and Nevin's comments,   I I don't want to uh to inhibit Gorman's ability  to bid on it if you decide to go out for bids.   They're in their business. That's their business.  They do that day in and day out all the time.   And so I if we can't go forward with you whenever  that time is, if it's tonight or some other time,   it is better for you if you're going to bid to  terminate our relationship so that that Gorman  

can go bid on that if they choose to do that.  Well, I don't think that's the path either. I just   want to have a convers an educated conversation  about options we have to finance it. That's all   I'm trying to do. So do William, you love to  tell stories, so I'm going to tell you a story.   That's good. I love to hear stories. So, I I had a  a specific uh time that I was doing a development   agreement with somebody um outside of city and  we had a very complex piece of land that involved   some wetlands, had wetlands um area that was  adjacent, a a conservation easement even. And so,   there were a lot of variables that were unknown to  me and the partner as far as to what the expense   and site work were going to be. And um we went  through this conversation for probably we worked   on it for about a year and finally it got to the  point uh that we both just kind of stepped back   and said, "Hey, let's take a time out. Let me go  and take these complexities off the table by going   and doing the full site work on just mitigating  any wetlands, going through the whole process,   doing all those things so that we could come back  to an agreement that actually reduced the risk for   everybody." And right now what I feel like in this  situation is we're trying to mitigate the risk so   much for all the unknowns and variables that it  would almost feel like it would be easier to take   one step back so that we can get clarity. Do I  think the public will support uplands improvement?   I do. I think the public is not against some  uplands improvements. What the level of that is,   what it looks like, I don't know what that is. Um,  but I also understand in the financing model that   there's probably needs to be some type of upland  uses. I think today was very helpful on getting   a more defined view of what the ship store is. If  you guys are acceptable to going down to something   that's smaller, that'll reduce our overall cost.  So, I mean, I think that was a great productive   thing. I don't know how to move forward and give  you assurities, at least from my perspective,  

that hey, there's going to be this upland thing  that's going to happen as the result of doing XYZ.   Um, so one option, and that's why I  was leaning in with Allen, was, hey,   like maybe we do need a step back. Let's  just build the 50 slips. Let's get all our   infrastructure numbers together. Let's go do that.  We're showing progress. We're doing that. We'll go   through this public uplands sharet process and  get some defined uses. So, I can answer your   question on what are you not okay with, what  are you okay with, those kind of things. Now,   I didn't think through the complexities of  obviously we've got a partner here that they may   not be able. Maybe that's something you guys can  work out within your group that maybe allow them   to at least on these first 50 like bid in that.  Um, so I don't want to I don't want to create   that cuz I would hope that the Gormans would  would bid on the 50. Um, you know, just like I   would hope Scott is the operator definitely after  what we heard today. So, so but I do understand   we're at a very complex part and I think through  like even the CDD commitment, I'm like, okay,   so what does that mean? we outline this area  for CDD and then we come back and we say, "Hey,   we want to put an amphitheater here. We want to  put some public amenity which doesn't have any   revenue. It really hasn't done anything for you  guys and you're in a spot where it doesn't help."   And so I definitely understand. I like marinas are  definitely and I've I'm going through financing on   one myself. So like it's not exactly a very easy  process to go through. It takes more equity than   any other type of buildout. um somebody go get  a house for 5% down sometime no percent down 20%   down standard marinas are 50% standard so I mean  like you it's it's different so anyway that's kind   of my take I I definitely don't feel like I this  meeting has been the most helpful meeting I've had   since being here and looking that well even before  that because it allowed us to go through step by  

step and get some clarity on some pieces and um  and that was helpful for me it's a good story   except you had to learn something. We got the  abstracts here. So tell me this about the the CDD   as I understand a community development district  that's a whole separate entity. Correct. That's   correct. And uh who who owns a CDD? You would own  it. How so? Because you're the property owner.   Okay. But the ultimate control and management  would be under that CDD board that's created,   right? whoever owns that property always the  commissions which will always be the city that   owns it. We're not taking ownership of anything.  You know, we have lease interest and so forth,   but the city under every option that we've given  you, the city will own uh all that property. Yeah. And to me, CDDs would be interesting to  explore. When the public says, "Oh my gosh,   we want this certain thing." We may  say, "This is how we get there."   Um, so there's an additional fee for each site  that would be passed through from them down to   a tenant. Um, I mean it's not like it's going to  make the rent go triple. But there it is a little   bit more expensive or potentially for a tenant  down there versus if you own it would be attached   to property and you'd have to you'd have to pay  it off that way. It's a it's a public body. It's   a public board. Sunshine laws and everything. So,  what would be a realistic timeline from staff for   the next uh workshop, meeting, whatever you want  to call it, to discuss the items we've talked   about today? Did you discuss what now? The items  that we discussed today, uh, you know, railings,   cost, and timelines, and money and how we use it  and all the stuff. I personally, I would love to   get go back to where we were and get the financing  conversation settled. Like, that would be amazing.  

Um, and if we cannot do that prior to Upland's  uses, then I think we need to step in with some   type of interim financing agreement to do these  50 slips so that we can allow for the time to   get through that process. Does that is that am I  making sense or am I just talking irresponsible?   No one's I'm like yeah I'm like I'm like it's  really quiet right now. It doesn't make sense.   It's fiscally irresponsible. We we don't have the  money to do it and you want to go borrow money   on something that we that we don't have the money  the way to pay it back. If you use the FEMA money,   you have the money. I think if you if you use  the FEMA money, we have the money plus interest.   So really, whatever the number is, we got to  add interest into it. It's more expensive to   do this. And that's what that's what I want to  have a conversation about. If you're going to   if you're going to borrow anyway, there's going  to be interest whether it's FEMA money or not   FEMA money. Exactly. So there's no difference.  Oh, I thought we were doing the I thought the   conversation was we were doing the 50. That's what  I was saying from the standpoint of it gets the it   gets it lessens the very you have real costs  that you can put into a financial model. You   have you've now gone through your public process  to get your allowable upland uses. like it just to   me it simplifies the process and gives us the time  to get through it and um and and do it right and   in a way and I and I think and I go back to the  story because it is about reducing risk on both   sides of the table um and anytime you can do that  it's good and mine's not about time mine's just   about risk and making good choices about about  ownership yeah I told you I was down here the   last time I called two bankers and ask if they  give me a loan for the Panama grammar thing. No,   it was a hard no on both of them. If it's  good, if it's not good enough for them, it's   good enough for the government is way he told me.  Uh I don't want to be in that position. If we are  

the only answer, it's not a good deal. For uh can  I ask for clarification? Yes. Maybe an idea too.   um on financing. I I believe what I'm hearing  is uh if the city and I'm and I'm going to just   pick on the money that's needed to do 50 slips  and I've used 3 million, maybe it's 4 million,   but it's some some number like that. One is get  a decent estimate of the cost and the cost plus   whatever it takes uh restrooms, whatever else it  takes to make 50 slips work. Because if the city   were to do it, the only thing you would know for  certain is that you can finance the 50 slips to   get it going. And then you have a year and a half  to try to determine what your permanent financing   is. So one, get a good cost. I hope somebody Joy,  you writing this down? I'm writing it. Get a good   cost. Number two, then find construction cost.  Then number two, find out how much. Call the bank.   Culturous Bank, see if they would agree to allow  the city to use a portion of the 150 million and   and then um talked to Olivia further about the  FEMA uh that got her attention about the FEMA   funding as far as utilizing that. So, I think that  answers and then we we wouldn't know much more,   but we could rehearse I mean go over again as far  as the long-term financing financing with CMP. I   believe that it's you know the question I would  have to CMP is are you willing and I'm not asking   for a response today. I'm I'm trying to come up  with something where you could get an interim  

report next week at the commission meeting. The  the uh uh the question would be it would be no   financing if CMP were to do the 50 slips. They  would pay for it. But the question on CMP is would   you be willing to accept uh that the city would  work in good faith to go to conduit financing or   with the CDD and and and maybe we can find out  some more information. We we kind of know that   conduit financing is legally available. Um don't  know that it's the interest rate that you need.   Uh the CDD will be problematic unless you have  unless we figure out what goes on in the uplands.   Um but it might work. I I don't know. But that  would be the question to to CMP. Would would they   be willing as far as their financing piece to to  go ahead and then agree to u us the city do good   faith considering it? But but certainly the city  stuff we could have an answer. Yeah. And including   to Robin Robbiey's point, whenever we have  financing options of ourselves that we're we could   do, I want to know that loan costs for that too,  right? The caring cost. So then we can have a real   conversation about should we let them do it or  should we do it? So was it Miss Smith? I I I did   a lot of speaking uh that deals with your sounded  great. I knew you'd tell me if it was wrong. My   only concern with the CDD is, you know, this this  board is is tax averse. This is a another level of   taxation that you're putting on this area. Just so  you're aware. The concern is you have to tax this  

section to pay the debt. There's no question about  raising taxes or not raising taxes once you issue   the CDD. Users are the ones that pay We don't have  a we have you're the taxing authority. You have to   you have to say okay your CDD your taxes now this  year are going to be two mills instead of one mill   that's I just want to make that clear in the area  that's correct what happens if what happens if you   have an amphitheater that's owned by the city  and operated by the city down there city pays   the taxes city pays the taxes an amphitheater yeah  yes public inside the CDD we would be responsible   for the share of those tax we don't charge the  county for taxes on things. They don't charge us   for taxes on things. We don't pay fire assessment.  I think that's the piece where I'm like I'm like   it gets a lot clearer when you have your upland  defined. I think if we did the fine I just wanted   that. Yeah. The you're going to find is you're  very absolutely right. We're going to have to tax   whoever we allowed to build there and in order  to have enough tax base we're going to have to   allow a lot more building in within that CDD.  That's true too. does I think that's so that's   density that's residential that's another little  small city basically that's that's that's what   a CDD is it its own entity and while the city may  continue to own the land whoever is on that board   would the city commission be the board of it I  think not it would be from whoever invests in that   no again it's owners in the property committee  and and they don't own whoever rents them they   don't own I I think a discussion about CDs in a  weeks will be a great part of that meeting. Yeah,   CD 9:00. They're they're very interesting  and I've worked with them long time, 30,   40 years. So, but it u I think the key here is  a good faith effort to consider it. Is that is  

that what CMP is looking for? Because we're not  going to be able to solve whether or not it makes   sense or not tonight or even 3 months from now.  But we can certainly learn a lot more about it. That was a question. So I I I don't know,  Nevin, if this is your soft way of asking   about an interim agreement. I Yeah, I'm really  not. No, I wouldn't recommend that we do that. Um,   no. What? But we're happy to explore all the  financing options with you. Yeah. That's all.   So I so I would I would recommend that  we go back to identifying the financing,   making sure that that's very clear before moving  forward. I do like Allen's option that he brought   up as far as like, hey, maybe we interim finance  50 slips awaiting the finishing of a process and   all these other things. I think that's that using  the FEMA funds. I think it's a great great idea,   too. Um, you know, and uh see  see where we can get with that. Does staff have enough information  for direction? I do. I think so. So,   I mean, basically, you guys are I mean,  aside from the financing conversation,   you want a good cost on the basically the build  out of the prominade, 50 slips, the ship store,   and kind of the necessary infrastructure. Some  of the basics, the bare minimum that we want   to commit to that. think they're looking  for how to finance that as well. You know,   the largest expense we is a must no matter what we  do is all this utilities nonrevenue. We if we want   to know a number, that's the number cuz that's  what triggered the uh the upwards market for   them. And you I don't care what it cost to build  the knock. I care what it costs to make make it  

all operate. All of this will always come back  down to financing. And from the very beginning,   even when we discussed if we're going to  have $10 million worth of improvements or   whatever that number is, there's a part of  that that has lending associated with it.   Who's financing? Ours unless we're unless we're  unless we're doing option whichever one it was,   which was everything's I don't think there is one  actually. Option one. You put in FEMA only. Yeah.   So unless we do unless we do option one, we are  involved in financing regardless. That motion So, uh, and the downside of option one for you is  I mean, I think that's what we talked about.   It was that we a blanket, you know, agreement  to a certain number of upward square footage   and the appendix is in the back. Got to do that.  Okay. Moving forward, how do we do you want us to   vote on a meeting time or what's the best way to  push this forward? I mean, obviously the calendar   gets challenging. I just did a quick skim. I  mean, really the only the the best date that   doesn't have a big conflict is Monday the 8th  of December. I got to talk to Victor Dober. Um,   obviously I don't know that we want to cut the  agenda in half like I don't know that we want   to bump I don't know if we want to bump them. Um,  you know, potentially that because you you know,   Thanksgiving week is probably not a good week.  The eighth works. Um, we could plan on something   for that. I guess the question I have I mean is  there still a collective desire that we want to   move forward with a P3 or are we going in a  different direction? I don't think or do we   not know yet? I don't think one more time. I'm  sorry, Brian. I don't think that we can afford   it. So I I would like to keep the P3 option open.  Yes. Like what option? What role? He was asking do  

we want to have a P3 involved at all? And I said,  "For me, yes, cuz I don't think we can afford it."   I'm with you. Oh, yeah. I'm not closing the door  on that. That's Yeah. I'm I'm not I'm not saying   that we can't explore and look go, "Okay, well,  you know, that that option is like if if you need   more to get to the same spot where I'm at, fine."  Um, but you know, I don't want to dismiss the P3   option. That That's for sure. For clarity, I would  personally like to see a financing agreement for   the first 50 slips or some mechanism of that for  our meeting in December. That's what I would like   to see. Okay. Josh, they agree to build it. Why do  we need a financing uh agreement? What do you mean   by a financial for the 50 slopes? But if they're  agreeing to build it and not have financing,   why do you need to see that? Because we haven't  gotten to an agreed upon term sheet. And I'm   saying I want to like I'm trying to give us more  time to get to that agreed upon term sheet by   taking the 50 slips off the table and constructing  those ourselves. And then yes, they will fold into   whatever other agreement. Otherwise, you're going  back to Upland. There is not an option here that   we have talked about tonight that doesn't involve  us borrowing everything like that. That doesn't   involve some Upland's conversation. And that's  the piece where that takes the longest lead time.   Uh option four, term sheet four has the right of  second use, which is parallel to St. Joe's right   of first use. So it's it does talk about uplands,  but it talks about uplands in the same way that   St. Joe talks about uplands. So I mean if if there  were any interest, we could Yeah. I mean, I like   your point. I just I don't want to close the  door to us financing it and and and so but that   as a deal point I personally like that. I would  want the same thing to protect my investment.

Are we going to finance it and they build it or  are we going to finance it and we build it under   your jobs? The first 50. Yeah, the first 50. Me  personally, I think I think we finance and build   the first 50. That's where I'm at. What if we  finance? If you're after the m the financing part,   we make money on that. If they agree in that,  we can finance it and they can build it. Why   do we want to get into the marina business? He  answered the question you asked. No, man. He He's   He builds it and he builds it and we we finance  and we build. Yeah. We finance and they build.   Now we're out of the We're just financing and they  pay us back. I think we could give them assurities   to what could be built and and answer a lot of  questions for them if we could finish up this   process. Now, there may be some type of interim  agreement that they're willing to consider, but   I think what I'm trying to get to is clarity. And  the quickest way to clarity is, okay, these 50,   we'll start with these. There's lead times on  there's lead times on materials. There's lead   times on all sorts of it will be months before  those 50 even get constructed. It may be a year.   And so that all that time you could be identifying  what upland uses you're willing to approve,   which ones you're not, and getting a very clear  plan to enter into a final financing arrangement   with all your variables. You said everything  I said just a little while ago with with the   contingency in there. you're doing all of that  and it may come out that we don't do business with   them and we financed the lot the the building and  that and they just and they either pay us back or   they run it and pay us back later on. But my point  is all the things that you want to do afterwards   are still available to you. But what we've done is  we've created a a a triangle of some sort of trust   and we have idea on how to move forward. doesn't  mean we're going to, but when we're getting the 50   slips done and if you think we need to finance  it, okay, but no effect and we still have the  

opportunity over a year and a half like you  said. I I'm trying to understand why we want to   stop when we when we're going to start finally  start having conversations again. That's what   you're saying is we're going to build this and  then we're going to start working on the other.   We're going to do exactly the same thing. We're  going to go through sharetses. We're going to have   conversations with the public. We're going to what  do you want? What do you don't want? All that is   the same as what you're asking. I'm going I'm not  understanding what the what the difference. Okay.   You want to have slips open and then leave that  this open over here for somebody to take advant   somebody to build. Right. Well, for me, we have so  many unanswered questions. Okay. Yeah. We have a   permit to build 50 slips. We've got $5 million  in FEMA money and the potential for CRA money.   There's nothing stopping us from doing the slips  parallel to the cherettes and figuring out what we   need to finance because for me the same question  arises if we're trying to figure out financing but   for what? What are we trying to finance? If we're  trying to agree to a revenue sharing but we don't   know what it's going to cost. Same questions.  Okay. But in the meantime, instead of continuing   to try to figure it all out, let's get the 50  slips built. But you're not figuring it all out.   That's the thing. Y'all are missing that. You're  getting an agreement on slips and then you open   up discussion for the future just like you want to  do. You're just doing it on a contingency basis of   that they might be our partner and they might not  be. That's all I'm talking about. I'm very that   the goal of 50 slips. We are moving towards that  by getting the design and having conversations   about financing. This is doing all that. I think  it would be I I I would I'm not in favor of making   any big decisions on the first time the public  heard on the slopes tonight. Do what? Are you   willing to vote on the slopes tonight? I'm willing  to vote that we explore financial options. That's  

what I'm said probably 87 times in this meeting.  Um that's what I want to have conversations about.   Um this is early. I mean, I unfortunately if they  had done the shorts a year ago, we could be just   running, but we can't go back and the best I  can do is say I need a little bit of time to   maybe end up in the exact same spot. By the way,  I'm not suggesting we have this vote tonight.   I'm trying to I'm trying to get on the same page  with Josh about what he wants is the same thing   that I'm asking about. It's just subject to  that's all I'm asking. There's no guarantee.   But time is not what I'm I'm after right now.  I'm after Mimi, I don't want to do that tonight.   I'm just trying to understand what Josh is after.  It's the same thing. So, um, but I know for me, the city doesn't do a good job. We don't need  to manage. We don't do pay. We We all agree   that we don't need to do that stuff. Okay? And  I haven't changed that position. But for me,   going out and finding money that we don't have  to do a project that's way over our heads like   me buying a force right now. I don't need to  buy a force right now. Okay. Oh, I can pay that   back. We can't right now. We don't know how we're  going to do that. Okay. I'm concerned that we're   making a decision over something that we don't  know how we're going to pay back. And that's a   big deal. I'm ready to stallings. And I'm ready  to have those actual conversations. We haven't   actually had those conversations where we talk  about CDDs, we talk about this financing and   that mechanism and how do we pay that back. We  haven't had those. This is the first time. So,   so it feels like you're not wanting us to move in  the direction of more discussions. I am very Okay.   So, then let's move that meeting. So, cuz then  unless we have that briefing of all our options,   we're just talking about hypotheticals and I'm not  willing to vote on hypotheticals today. I want to   move forward with the meeting and clarity and  more engagement so that we can all shape a deal   that they're happy with, that we're happy with,  the citizens understand. So, I don't know if you  

need a motion for like a meeting or something.  Um, but we need to move forward and it's 8 8:15   at this point. Yeah. So, Mr. Mayor, I would ask.  So, um, you know, I was just assuming evening,   but there are some additional options if we're  open to 8:00 a.m. I know typically we want to do   more evening, but you know, and we we'll have to  find a location, and we will, but December 2nd,   December 9th, 8:00 a.m. Thursday, December  11th, 8:00 a.m. or December 8th at 4:30 p.m.   That's not That is not That's not good for the  public. I'm trying to keep the public around.   Are we just going to be talking about financing  or we be talking about something else? Because   I don't know how many people are going to want  to come and listen to our spreadsheets. Yeah. Um   whatever whatever makes this I I don't know. I've  never done it before. How How about this? if if   you're willing. Um it's possible and maybe we'd  know in a in a day or two whether we could give   kind of a short report at next Tuesday on just  financing agreement from the city's perspective. It mean we could try Yeah. Miss Smith, do you  think that's something we could try to put   together? Sure. I I don't see I don't see why not.  Yeah. A briefing at the city commission meeting.   Yes. And then we could add it to the agenda. If  we can get it all together, we'd tell you about it   ahead of time uh individually and then uh we'd see  if we could get it on the agenda and we can just   talk about it for next for next Tuesday. Tuesday.  Okay. That's a 4:30 p.m. Yes, it's 4:30. Okay.   That works for me. Yeah. Two two other options  would be to move the housing workshop and take   that December 1st for this, move that into the new  year or even take away our town hall on Saturday   uh December 6th and do a special meeting in the  morning. That would be more flexible for people to  

attend because it's not during the work week. So,  I'm just trying to give options on if you want to   do something between if you want to do something  in between like say Thanksgiving and December.   We have certainty from some of the like marina  supportive items like the railings and healthy.   We already have some of these numbers. I just want  to get them updated. Like for example, I know the   prominade is $2.5 million. Concrete, railing, and  lights. Now, that's a probably a year, year and a   half old. Um, so you know, prices have come down,  so it may be a little bit less. So, who has been   pretty accurate on the 50 slips? My worry is after  this meeting, I'm always like punch drunk until   I get home and sleep and then I wake up the next  I'm like, "Oh, I wish I would have asked this in   the meeting." Um, much like the agenda for this,  pretty much like the structure of this meeting,   it took me 3 days to go, what questions should  I ask? Um, and so a week from now is awesome,   but my worry is in two days I'm going to give you  a list of things I want to know about and you'll   say, well, that's 3 weeks to get done. Um, so I'd  prefer it being at least two weeks away. Sure. to   give to give us all space because there I'd like  them to present about CDDs or anything that we   need to do to talk about financing. The option of  using December 1 and punting housing to the first   of the year works. I mean, we've got just a little  bit of time left in this holiday season and the   meetings that we've already got scheduled. Yeah.  Um, we could prioritize housing in January and and   shift this one. That would need a vote though. I  think that'd be appropriate. Mr. Mayor, move to do   so. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Where is that coming  from? Yeah. Where is it coming? Page of second.   So, you got the motion. You got the motion. The  motion is to move housing to January. To January   and hold the financing. Is it a workshop or or a  special meeting? I I I would prefer you have it   be a special meeting. So, in case you do want  to vote on December, give yourself options to  

do December day. December 1, Monday, 4:30 p.m.  Okay. My mom's birthday. All right. Do we have   a motion? And do we have a second? I'll second.  Do we have any discussion? I would just like to   point out we do have people that are scheduled  to come in out out of time for the December 1st   meeting. They will they will know by 9:00 a.m.  tomorrow morning that we're moving that. Make   that 8:30. By 8:30. Okay. By 7:30. Eastern time.  They'll know first thing. Any other discussion?   Please call the role. Commissioner Granger, yes.  Commissioner Street, no. Commissioner Hughes,   yes. Commissioner Lucas, yes. Mayor Branch,  yes. Did you vote no, Commissioner? Mayor,   uh, motion passes 4 to one. All right.  Do I have a motion to adjurnn? Motion to   adjurnn. Any discussion? Please call the RO. Yes.  Commissioner Granger, yes. Commissioner Street,   yes. Commissioner Hughes, yes. Commissioner  Lucas, Mayor Branch, yes. Thank you for coming   tonight everybody. Gabble, you're not supposed  to have our meets. I did. I said discussions.