Charter Review Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

John, you want to pray? Heavenly Father, we just thank you for this  time together to come uh and do the business of   our city. Uh we're grateful for uh the men and  women serving on this advisory board to help us   review our charter. And we just pray for your  continued guidance and wisdom throughout this   process. Uh, Father, we also pray for our staff  and thank you for the support that they provide   in this uh this effort that's not only important  to our staff and team here at city hall, but   also to all of our citizens and businesses who who  live, work, and play uh in our great city. Father,   we're mindful of our men and women in uniform  who protect us and give us the right to do that,   which we do here today. So, we just lift  them up uh in prayer. Uh we pray for those   that are currently deployed, Father, that you  would keep them safe and once their mission   is complete. Would you bring them back safely  to their family and friends again? We ask that   you bless our time together today. Give us wisdom  and discernment and everything that we think, do,   and say. Uh and may it all bring honor and glory  to your name. Christ name we pray. Amen. Amen. To the flag of the United States of America  and to the republic for which it stands.   One nation under God, indivisible,  with liberty and justice for all. Chairman Burke here, Mr. Danzy. Yes. Mr. Ferrer  here. Mr. Henderson Jansenius here. Miss Skoon   here. Uh, chairman, you have quum. If I may  briefly, Mr. Chairman, I'll just point out uh   we have a new person at the table today, Miss  Brandy Waldron. Um, if you did not know, uh,   Miss Smith has announced her retirement, uh, from  the city effective, uh, sometime in early to mid   August. August 10th. She knows the date. So, she  will obviously continue on with the critical role  

that she plays and um, in assisting with this. The  commission is named Brandy Waldron as the interim   city clerk treasurer uh in in the time being, but  again uh Jan still has a lot of value and and and   apparently till August 10th uh will continue  to help and aid us in this effort. So I just   want to introduce Miss Walker to report. Randy,  yes. Were you already with the city or are you   new to the city? Yes, I have been with the city  um March will be 22 years. Um and I I also serve   as a one of the assistant city managers and um  when we had this position vacant five years ago,   I I filled in as interim while we did the search.  Okay. Thank you. Um the minister suggestions.   I only have one question wrong. So when I  look down article section 9, article 13,   the third pallet forms the recommendation from MA.  I should know who that was. Uh the International   City Counting Management Association. Yes, sir.  Let me just write that out. Certainly small. Um move we approve as we All in favor? Any oppos? Um, what do you have one kind of just like  almost procedural thing got online? We can   do this real quick. And I mentioned it before  we left. Do any of you guys know or do you have   access to the schedule and kind of like where  we are in relation to where we need to be?   remember we kind of came up at the very beginning  of here's where we were trying to be at certain  

points. I think I feel like we're a hair behind  but I don't I just I should have looked and like   how far behind are we everybody's looking at you  Miss Smith in the minutes from the very can y'all   once you find that then we'll come back to it.  Okay, now that I Here we go. Um August You want to   go ahead? Yeah. August 28th was article 1 and two.  Uh September 25th 3 and 4. October 23rd 5 and 7.   November 20th 8 and 9. So like by by this meeting  February 26 we were to be substantially through   uh every article except for public utilities  and boards and commissions. Uh February 26.   We should be discussing finance generally and  article 15 taxation. So we are actually still   on city officer, city manager, city attorney  and city clerk. We have not looked at police   and fire. We may be two meetings behind. When  when were we supposed to be like finished with   the city manager, the the charter officers?  So um meeting four, meeting number four,   October 3rd. uh October 23rd, sorry, it was  supposed to be article five, city officers,   employees and departments generally and article  7, the city manager and then November 20th,   uh the article 8, the city attorney, and  article 9, police protection. Then January   29th, article 12, fire protection, and  article 13, city clerk and collection. It's fine. I mean, we're definitely defined,  but we still got March, April, May, May, June,  

July. There was a lot of built-in extra time  for this, you know, obviously. And and you did   uh I think there was an early meeting  that got postponed because there was a   conflict with everyone. So, some of that I  believe we added this one today. This one   this today is and an opportunity to get  ahead maybe and make up some products.   One other thing, Mr. Chairman, I  have a hard get out of here 215. Um, all right. So with that uh enough so uh the first thing that I have um is an email  that I received today from the former one of   the former city clerks and her opinion on um how  the city clerk and treasurer functions should be   um aligned in the chart and oh  she doesn't really say the charter   uh but um I added it to your to the table  there. The city clerk and treasurer functions   are comprised of two different disciplines and  she believes there should be two positions,   a clerk and a finance director. Is  this the lady that usually sits as and I believe she served as deputy clerk  and then clerk for a number of years for   the city. Correct. served as deputy treasurer  which used to be called manager of accounting   services and that's when she was here  and then she was city clerk treasurer and I agree with her assessment of uh that's  exactly how I was hired uh as a person with a   finance background and then I was expected to um  become certified certified mu m m m m m m m m m m   m m m m m m m m m m m municipal clerk. So, I came  in as a CPA and I got my CMC while I was here. So,  

um she's she's spot on with what past practice has  been. The Bor's okay. If there's any questions,   go for it. But this is going to wrap up very  well when we get to the clerk discussion.   Any other staff reports? Yes. And I'll just  my the spreadsheet that I forwarded around   and then made copies for. So, I can give  the reader digest version, Mr. Chairman,   board members. So basically it's it the question  was asked of the Florida League of Cities you   know kind of how are how is the clerk position and  the treasur kind of set up across the system and   so there's you know maybe you know 70 80 cities  here that gave us examples and what I would say   is the summary version is that um usually the  clerk off the clerk's office is a much smaller   team. You'll see it's most of them are like  zero to five very small team. So that means   it does not include your accounting component.  You know, the accounting, the uh the payroll,   that that kind of stuff is often separate. So,  um I think uh what you would see most cities   would have the clerk him or herself report under  the city manager, but that would be strictly uh   you know with uh the minutes uh the public  records uh those types of things. you know,   getting, you know, the flow of contracts  and those appropriate things signed and then   uh either a treasurer or or maybe like a CFO  would be something that would be separate uh   and or to uh directly to the commission for again  those checks and balances. Although there are some   uh where I would say maybe you know maybe 10  or 12 do have uh you know do have everything   under the city manager. So you basically just  have a city manager and a city attorney. Uh but   the overwhelming majority have the CFO uh separate  from uh the city manager. Very similar to our city

and uh the documents that I have um I put  them on the right side. We have uh the   working charter with the red lines of only that  which this board has approved. Um there's been a   lot of discussion of things that you're going to  come back to and tweak that is not redlined here   um because it has not officially been voted on  and approved. But this just gives you a working   document so you can see where we are as far as  what has actually been approved. And sorry. And   so that that was requested by the board, but you  complete that. And then um next after that is um   uh to support what Johnson was talking about  regarding um all the different um manners   in which the clerk treasur's position is is um  done throughout the state. My memo does um gives   you examples of language from I pulled about 15  different um charters from around the state. None   of them are the large cities like Miami, Tampa.  Those all um use strong mayor form of government.   I so I only went with forms of government that  matched our city. And so there are examples of   language of how um other charters describe the  city clerk's position and the treasur's position,   many of which are all finance directors  in other municipalities. So that gives you   um a lot of different examples of language as  as was requested by the board. Let's see. And  

then um and included in that I'll point out is the  model city charter as well. That's one of the 15. Then um I did an update to one of the memos that  I did, the one that was dated January 20th. Um,   there was language in that for a brand  new section that would address how an   acting city manager would be appointed and the  samples that were provided in that memo. Um,   the board indicated that you wanted to see um what  our code of ordinances already provides for. So,   this just amends that to add in what our  code, the city of Panama City's code and   how we're actively doing it. That's what  that red line language is. And then there   was simply a request for the organizational  chart from Coral Springs. And I just threw   that in because I my notes indicated  somebody was interested in seeing that. Um, any questions on any of that stuff right now?   A lot of it's going to roll up into  the stuff we've been discussing, but okay. And I think it's We have any audience participation?

Is anybody online? M three people, Nina, Terry,  and Ian. Oh, yes. The Yeah. So, the only folks   online, sir, are the former uh retired city  folk treasure as well as representatives from   the super. So there's no I don't know if  Miss Lillard would like to say anything. Are you able to see her? Oh, she does. Are you able to put her on the  screen? Thank you, ma'am. Um, you can unmute. Let's see. You should be unmuted. Miss  Lillard, are you there? Try again, Miss Lillard. We think we've uh  unmuted you. Oh, asked to unmute. I tried   to unmute. There we go. All right. Okay. No, I  don't really have anything else other than what   I sent you. And I just think you all have done  a great job and um putting a lot of thought and   detail into this charter review. Yeah. Can you  just set your name and address for the record,   ma'am? Thank you. Yes. Terry Lillard, 1016 West  9th Street, Panama City. Thank you so much. Miss Ward, if do you have  anything to add at all, ma'am? My assumption is probably no, sir. So,  doesn't Yeah, when we get to that point,  

we may even have questions for one round. Um,  would you guys indulge me super quick before we   get to the city manager stuff? If I did a review  of what we have so far, but a handful of like   kind of almost like scrier's comments, which I  can get with Neon or you guys with afterwards,   but there's just things I can go go through in  about 60 seconds. Number one is can y'all clean up   the pronouns? And there it constantly says he he  he there. Um there is a way to simply have kind of   an overall um language that says that allows for  all of um all of the for genderneutral language   to be added. So you can just do so there'll be a  separate sentence or section that says that when   this is adopted that all all uh everything will be  gendered. So right. So in the red lining I there   was a time when when one of the amendments that  you passed you asked for it to be gender neutral.   Um I didn't go and do that every right because  you can just do a blanket blanket amendment   for that. Um is that something we need to vote  on? Is that at some point on that motion to do   at some point charter gender neutral? I believe I  presented some language as in none of the members need motion motion. I I'll I'll motion to adopt  gender neutral pronouns for I think we do. Okay. Debate. All in favor? I um and then just another  thing I don't even think necessarily this   thinks that it requires a vote just consistent  terminology like sometimes it's city commission   sometimes it's commission and sometimes it's  capitalized and sometimes it's not so let's  

just make sure we go through there and like that  it's it's one thing throughout um go ahead sorry   um regarding that there has in order to modernize  the language At one point there was discussion   about uh may when it says mayor commissioner  to drop the word commissioner, but you want   to be consistent in that that the mayor is a  commissioner as opposed to other municipalities   which pull the mayor out and and is not right.  I mean I know I'm bear with me. Ron's getting   anxious because like I'm like I understand the  commission is the body that's comprised of five   things but sometimes it's called city commission  sometimes it's just called commission sometimes   it's capitalized sometimes it's not just make it  consistent that's all we can do that too yeah um comments about the substance of the other stuff   um it's grammar the first thing  that we voted um is subsidious. I've got a couple other just style things,  but I'll I'll get with you guys after that.   Okay. All right. Um All right. You want  to talk about city manager stuff? So,   where did we leave that? We talked a lot about  city clerk, but we talking about city manager   meeting. Yeah, we were I think we left on the  city. think we can jump the city clerk. Um, let me tell you where they want  to go just following the agenda.

I think we were starting to drill down  on whether it's to that person to so not a loaded question. Part of me wants to do  manager and attorney because I think those are   probably a little bit cleaner and then spend the  rest of the time on clerks. Part of me is also   like let's get clerk out of the way. But I'm  I'm open to Can we do manager attorney first?   So Nevin, you have proposed language here for  city manager regarding acting city manager and   this like this temporary arrangement. Yeah,  and that's consistent with our existing ord.   So or my suggestion would be again bear with  me because I I draft things like this regularly   would be to pull out the aspects of a deputy  city clerk and put that under the city clerk   provision. It feels weird to have a city manager  clerk things under a manager thing. And then I   would suggest adding something along the lines  of unless unless there's a reason not to that the   uh 15 working days could be exceeded based on the  approval of the commission. But I don't I don't   know what this is intending to solve. That was  my question. Is it even needed? That's what we   do now without being any as far as there is. Is  it a resolution or ordinance? It's an ordinance.   It's an ordinance. And so that's Jonathan Le city  manager sends it around to all the commissioners.   I'll be gone following four days, two days,  whatever. And then uh either Randy or Jared will   be designated as acting. No. Do you feel like in  the absence of something in the charter that says  

that somebody else can act without authority that  it's not as clear? I think it's fine to put it in   the charter, but I don't know that it has to be  in the charter. Yeah. I mean, that's that was my   question is without it in the charter doesn't  make it therapy. And with it in the charter,   is it better? For lawyers, it's always good to be  very That's always better. More is better. Change,   I guess, would be the Yeah. I mean, that'll  defer you. If you think to go as long as we   separate out the the clerk and the manager and  then I think if we just put something else that   it could be extended upon the approval of the  commission, I'm fine with Is there an equivalent   for city attorney? He's a he's irreplaceable,  right? I understand that. We haven't seen that   draft. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to city manager,  a lot of it has to do with spending authority. So,   when I'm out, if there's a purchase order, a check  request that comes through, if I don't appoint one   of them acting city manager, do a little memo to  that end, they don't really have the authority to   go in and approve. No, I understand that. What I'm  saying though is is it is it not sufficient that   it just be by resolution? Is it something that  needs to go in the charter so that it's clear   when that person can't make those decisions is  delegable? I I don't think it has to. But let   me ask answer the question on city attorney. The  my contract Burke Blue and me personally have a   contract with the city and that names people that  can also act as city attorney which are Natalie or   Mike Bur you know gives a list of those people.  though it's done by contract under the authority   of the city commission shall designate a city  attorney and then you have a contract and that   deals with what happens if I'm not available. So I  know I'm I'm not trying to like push this through   but board do we want this in the charter  or do we not and that's a genuine question  

like not is there the same language in their  contracts? No, because it's in the ordinance. I I think it's important that it is part of the  charter even if it's by language. My preference   is that it be in the charter just because  that way it doesn't run into this possibility   of people changing it. Is anybody strenuously  opposed to it being added to the charter? Yeah,   but either way it's I'm not strenously in favor  of I think it is. So, can I get a motion to   approve? Sorry. In operational if the city manager  decides to go on a week's vacation, he has to make   enough plans to let the board know to make an  appointment for the city manager. Well, I can   do it in five minutes. Yeah, it's so it doesn't  take board approval. It's just Okay. Right.   about not to muddy the waters or anything, but  there there is another alternative to this if   this is something the board does not want in the  charter at all is Jonathan effectively um changes   Brandy and I's title instead of uh assistant city  manager it's deputy and then we can assume his   authorities without a memo or designation deputy  connotates we have the authority it's implied   designation versus um authorized That's like  well the military going from that my background   when I started here this would all be in writing  when when the staff judge advocate left the base   captain come on in here you're going to sit first  week and so and so you it was written because any   command decision court marshal article whatever  contract it was locked down was no question   because there had been a delegation in writing and  to your point, ma'am. Like when we when Jonathan  

gives that delegation on on high dollar check  requests, change orders, contract contracts,   we always attach that memo. Yeah. So our auditors,  it's cleaner. So yeah, I think everybody's on the   same page. So there needs to be some paper trail.  The question is whether it belongs in the charter   as a policy nerd, it probably is cleaner  that it goes in the charter. That way it's   very clear that when that person's not there,  there's a process to delegate that authority.   And so I think it's excellent to put it in the  charter. Yeah. Provides the authority. Otherwise,   if the authorities don't provide it, who has the  authority, right? If I hear if I hear Jared right,   I agree with with Jared. Operationally, if you're  in a deputy position, the command falls next to   the deputy city attorney. Anyhow, we don't have  to do a 15-day notice. So, that does muddy the   waters what I said. But the other the flip side  of that is what I'm hearing from y'all is that   exposes his staff to additional risk. It's not a  15-day notice. It's not 15 days. Yeah. Yeah, it   can be a fun. I think it's just cleaner and easier  and everybody understands the what you suggested   is efficient but it depending on personalities  there could be problems 100%. So why do that? I get a motion to approve this with  the separations manager and adding in   language that it can be extended upon  approval of the commission. separation   of what do you mean paragraphs to  that we can I would make a motion   that we adopt the proposed language  removing uh discussion about the city that your motion is that we adopt this language  regarding the city manager right and do not adopt  

language about the city of debate. Are you okay with  adding in the language about   it can be extended by the commission?  That's my that's my suggestion. So,   it's 15 days by up to 15 days, but it can  be extended if the commission approves it   beyond 15 days. And my thought process being  perhaps Jonathan gets into an accident or he's   sick and he's in disposed for 30 days.  That's an excellent suggestion. Yeah. So, all in favor of that I I did Did you  need to get a second to the visit to be   I was just clarifying what your on adopt  the proposed language removing references   to the city clerk and add that the city  commission can uh extend the net. Yeah. for the compensation for the city manager.  We had left that kind of open-ended. Are   we going to put something in the charter that  aligns more with what the compensation should   be rather than the subjectiveness of the board  making that decision? Should we talk about this   with commissioners the city commissioner  commission stresser the attorney for we have additional language regarding competition   that's a discussion that you want to  have what do you what do you think aside from the city manager position the  is our mayor and our commissioners how   do we is there a standard with the league  city I guess the leader So, Mr. Chairman,   I did ask, are we talking about manager comp  or are we switching to commissioner compos

compensation in general? Compensation being  city manager. We can discuss first. Why are   those being welded together? Just compensation  underneath the article in general. We left it   opened on the city. This is just for the city  manager. plus shields. We can talk about city   man. We can talk about I'm looking to standardize  the compensation language across the charter for   all of the ultimately but we can start with  the compensation period. I I think that would   be I think it raises a good point, but probably  just proper notice probably just focus on the   job of the city manager and the compensations  notices you got to settle. So maybe not. Okay.   So if we stick with the manager compensation  alone, Brandon, where do you want to go with   that? Where does it come from currently? How do we  determine the compensation for the city managers?   It's just you negotiate a contract. Yeah, they  will have some information that they you know   receive you know kind of average salaries uh you  know and that is the information you can get uh   from uh the FCCMA which is the Florida city county  management association level which is basically   association which is the state chapter of the so  they provide that and then you negotiate based   on you know experience and that so it's purely  negotiation that's correct about board timing   correct And but is this the association we were  referring to the group that spoke to us? Well,   that was Florida for League of Cities. Florida  League of Cities has to do more with elected   officials and charters. The FCCMA, the ICMA  has to do more with professional management   of an organization such as a city,  town or county, a little bit different. As an aside, I did ask the Florida League of  Cities about like salary data and what I was  

going to start to say is they really don't have  that kind of stuff because everybody does it so   different. It's not really something they get  in, you know, it's it's a little different. So,   then I would probably be in favor of  just removing the compensation from   the plan all together. If it is two or three  positions that answer directly to the board,   I would kind of trust the process of what the  hiring process looks like. It is contract based,   right? It's negotiated. It's there may be a  standard that could be set during the process   but that can be provided by HR or anybody up to  that or I would probably do favor just removing   compensation and what is the language that's  already there it's section 101 the compensation it's in two places 82 at the doctors. I think the charter should say who fixes the  common section. Yeah, that's the purpose. Yeah. Fixes in fixing to fix the  conversation. Sorry about that. That was great. That was  that was like grief though. I think we're Yeah. How I'll fully pull on my  sword that I I skipped over 82 and I saw the   compensation and I thought I determined actually  how it works. I guess there's one phrase in here  

and this may be important to me what's actually  happening. Under 82. It says the city commissioner   shall fix the salary or compensation of the city  attorney, city manager, and city clerk. The city   manager, except as may be otherwise provided,  with the approval of the city commission,   shall fix the number and compensation of all other  officers and employees. Is is that like with the   approval of the city commission? Is that how that  actually works or is that effectively baked into   the budget? It's in the budget. We bring like  our compensation plan, our step and grade program   that we developed years ago. That was actually  presented to the commission for them to adopt   before that was ever implemented and then it was  then budgeted. And is it as granular as here's   every position and every salary. So it's it's  grades. So every position is broke up into a grade   and then you've got steps for uh for longevity.  So like military. I got it's very DoD based but   in the real budget it's line by line. My name is  in there. Andy's name is in there. Got a grade   or a whatever a grade. Yes. Police police officer  position and we may have 80 of those and we'll see   a grade and you know so chair Mr. Chairman prior  to that we would actually go out and get a salary   survey from an independent consultant and they  would say here's where your positions fall based   on surveys of the of your town size, you know, the  cost of living, everything else. And then we'd get   a report back. They'd say this is how much it's  going to cost to trip up your F. We do that about   every five understanding issues that well there is  some language that may be of an issue with 82. Um third sentence I guess the salary or compensation  of sulfates shall be uniform for light services   in each grade on city service is the same  shall be graded or classified by the city  

man that's our paid plan and it's regardless of  the step program or the salary survey program   it's whatever program the commission I I think  the intent of it is very very positive and very   rate goes. And as someone who's seen different  pay for women doing the exact same work as men,   you know, this is over the years, that's kind of  a helpful uh thing to uh discourage that kind of,   you know, difference in pay for the same. But when  you're talking about negotiating for the lawyers   and negotiating for a city manager, that is  individual based on your expertise and experience   that you have and that could be conceivably down  the road an issue because it wouldn't be it would   be what would not be uniform because you're basing  it on, hey, you had 20 years as a city manager of   a larger city. you just move in here because  you have a grandbaby here, you know, but you   would that person would have tremendous amount  of experience and perhaps should not be paid the   same as someone who's just brand new or as two  years in. I just wonder if that I mean no one's   probably raised the problem, but since are are you  talking about the charter officers? City manager.   So those are so those are the contracts that are  negotiated. The other the other operational, but   that's not what this says. That's what's happening  by ops. That's not what this written sentence   says. Such as you just read. Yeah. I read that.  Yeah, I read that very carefully. Okay. How do you   make help me? Well, I'm reading it. I'm not sure  this is what's actually happening is I'm reading   it as the individual employees, they get basically  graded or classified by the city manager. So,   through my HR director, that is correct. Yeah. So,  you have all these grades one through 10. I don't  

know what it is. So, and then you would have the  discretion to say congratulations, you're moving   up to a three or 10 or whatever. They we have  a process, but yes, we look at their their work   history and it's depending on if they've done uh  similar type of service and work in that job. We   give them additional steps and there's there's  objective and subjective portions of that or is   it purely? We try to do very objective. I mean  there there might be a little bit of a job and   we kind of talk through that office and the HR  director. I there was a clause that I didn't   pick up on because it initially does list all the  charter employees, but the very next sentence says of all other officers and employees and then  it follows on to say there will be uniform.   So they're accepting the charter employees.  So the charter employees would not that issue   would not that is weird. It says all other  officers. That is kind of odd. I see what   you're saying. Yeah. If because but it's  they list the city attorney, city manager,   and city clerk. And then it says all other  officers. Yeah. Who officers? You could just   strike other officer saying employees. You know,  that that would probably clear it up because   that's what I would not I mean I would not set  the salary for the two of them. That's between   the commission. Right. That's where I kind of  got like, you know, who are we need to negotiate. Yeah. Find it. I'm pretty sure I  saw on here that the commission   has the authority to appoint other  officers if they if they need to,   but then they would fix the strike.  We just put a period after officers   off. Well, we don't want to use the word other  employees. So, fix the number on compensation. Oh, I see what you're saying. Because then maybe  some other officers maybe officer would do,  

but they Well, I think the way it's written  protects the two charter office uh employees   that we know. And what Brandon is saying is  if there's additional commission appoints,   they would be protected too. I mean, we go back  to 79. does all our officers and departments,   city attorney, city manager, city clerk and  other departments as the city commissioner. If you had a city clerk and then maybe you added  a CFO and that's your other officer, something   like that. I mean, I don't but then wouldn't the  city commissioner fix that? That would be in the   first sentence. Yes. But or the way this is worded  though, the city manager would do anybody else.   I think it would be okay to separate the two and  say the city I think that all commission yeah the   commission says the officer compensation and then  the city manager says the employee compensation   that's good but and just keep it separate manages  the city separate officers and employees into two   sections I would agree that would be more clear  so we would start with separation in 7982 and 101 I would argue that section 82 if it's defined  clear enough can compensate for all the other   compensation sections of other that does  simplify it. Yeah. So if you have okay three   charter officers other officers as commission  deems appropriate which they would determine   their compensation and then the commission  still does the grades like the the rates of   pay for the various grades and then the managers  what determines who's in what grade based on what   position correct they establish the grades and  then the steps and what that looks like in the   pay plan but then I determine which positions go  in which grades and if we give them additional  

credit higher steps. So that's correct for all  other for all other employees conditions go in   which grades I mean like department I mean  department heads so chiefs and directors are   one assistant city managers are another you know  division managers are different ones depending on   you know the size of the budget the operational  level that they have any type of requirement. So   we we actually have we have 26 different grades,  but most of our positions are in between four and   26. And then we have 16 steps. You can get  16 steps of seniority. Very similar to the   GS scale with the federal government. Yeah. That  was a change that was made in October uh of 2021,   the county fund. Yeah. make plans your office  and yourself city manager a lot of flexibility   to kind of look at workspace and kind of match  you up but I typically will defer to the ACMS   and the HR director to kind of look at that in  a very objective fashion on how much seniority   they're given credit for with relevant job  experience okay to make it as I mean I I   agree there's always going to a smidge of  of subjectivity in it, but I would say the   overwhelming majority of it is very objective  and that's how the HR team approaches it very   consistently. All right, tell me if you're okay  with this. I've got three changes that all work   together. So in section 79 if you move I'm  suggesting that we revise the language of any point I forget city attorney city manager  and a city clerk and such other officers   change departments to officers as the city  commission deems appropriate. Then under 82,  

the city commissioner shall fix the salary and  compensation for the city attorney, city manager,   city clerk, and other officers. And then city  manager acceptance provided you're in shall fix   the number and grade of all other employees.  And then the rest of it seems to fit fine. Okay. So um and other officers you want to put  if any other officers I'm assum I'm suggesting   we strike that out but just added other  officers to the end of the first sentence   of the No I was on the first sentence. Oh yeah  sorry I wasn't clear. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry clerk   and other officers if any. That's fine. Just  so that people don't go, hey what, you know,   heard this. The next sentence where it  says the city manager except otherwise   provided shall mix the number and grade  of all other officers and of all other   employees or all employees either other or  just all we're taking out officers. Correct. to one step further clarity that section 82 be  compensation of officers and then add a section   83 to be compensation of employees trying to  just separate the two. Okay. And then that would   and then the last thing would be that would that  would allow us to remove section 101. Absolutely. help. So the suggested revision of 79, the  suggested revision of 82 with Brandon's   suggestion that you divide up compensation  of officers and compensation of employees.

And if I'm I'm just kind of thinking out loud  here, if you do section 82, compensation of   officers, it's one sentence. You just go city  clerk and other officers as applicable or if   any. Period. And that's the end of that sentence.  That's the end of that section. And then you go to   8 a new 83. And 83 discusses employees and grades  and the manager and all that stuff like that. Does that reflect the and then the removal of  oneonone? And then and then just a catch all.   I mean, if I'm assuming, and we'll get  there, you know, if the clerk whatever,   if the clerk has how they're compensated or  the attorney has how they're compensated,   it's all covered in the new 80  the new 82. I'll second that. I guess I did the motion. Any other discussion? Did you say you made the motion? Yeah.  Can you make You can second motions,   but you can't make motion. I'll make the  motion. You make the motion. I'll make   the motion. Everything that Brandon just said, favor. But you can second them. I don't want to  take all the power from second motions though.   I mean rarely can canvas  beed later with any voice. Okay. Um what else do we what's the next up manager? I have a couple. So, one of the things I looked at was 82. Sorry,  misspoke. 102. Okay. And there was this that's   a pretty important paragraph. This is a pretty  important program. Well, I mean, there's this  

strenuous removal process and I don't I don't  know if that's necessary or it just it seems like   a loss. We discussed this briefly and I think in  the meeting you hear I don't know. Yeah. Where we   where we landed or I think we stayed on both ends  of the fence. We said, "Do we strike it or do we   keep it?" I mean, we were stuck between the two.  See, we wait till Brandon guy. Yeah, definitely.   Jonathan, your contract, is it an effectively  an ad will contract? Yes, sir. Do they have city   manager contracts or like annual? Do you know?  That's a really good question. Some cities do.   And you have to renew it annually. Yeah. It's like  they'll have like a It's not typically a year.   It's like a three to five year and then they'll  renew it. Salary negotiations happen again.   So, it's I think it's rare in Florida, but  I think it happens a lot in Texas. I I'm my   contract requires me to give 60-day notice as did  Miss Smith's. Um, but yeah, they could add to the   meeting this coming Tuesday and vote to send me  packing. Do you have strong feelings about this   process where if you've been here for six months,  you go in front of the commission in a public   hearing? I'm not trying to put you on the spot.  Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I do think um you know,   obviously city hall, county building, I mean, it's  a political institution. Um I do I do think that   um putting in some appropriate um barriers to, you  know, to somewhat shield maybe the city manager or   um or county manager. That being said, however,  um in order for this to actually work, I mean, you   know, you don't want to completely tie the hands  of your elected officials who are there on behalf   of the citizens of the respective city or county.  So, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where,   you know, you have, you know, the citizens want  to make some big changes, um, and then, you know,   you elect a bunch of new officials and, you  know, they just they just want to remove someone,  

you know, without any real reason, right? is  because you're old been there before. Yeah. So,   yeah. I mean, my my two cents on this is this  creates kind of a lot of pump and circumstance   and it certainly could be something that could be  negotiated in a city manager contract. It's like,   you know, I can be terminable with 30 days  notice, opportunity to cure, all this kind   of stuff. It feel it just feels very awkward and  unchartered to say that we're going to go through   this process despite what's in a contract.  Um, I would I would just suggest putting a period of city commission and the city manager  shall be removable by the city commission and   then if if you guys negotiate otherwise then so be  it to to create some system. Yeah. The the I guess   the challenge you can I mean people are different  like you know I just I have the view that if there   was a parting of ways like I would never ever  want there to be some big like it's just not   professional. It doesn't help the city. uh if  if there's a majority that wants me to move on,   I respect that. And uh you know, that's that's  this that's this business. And I think you just   have to have that's how you're going to see  that across the whole country with cities,   towns, villages, and counties. again  without violating federal law. Of course, I hear what you're saying, but having having seen  very bad decisions by large corporations also,   but you know, in particular, governmental entities  that seem to be motivated by what's considered   illegal things. This this is like a wall against  that. And if anything like that were to happen,   let's say in Panama City, it's a lot cheaper  to have that five that hearing early on then   wait four or five years later and have a massive  litigation, which is what's happening in Linhaven.  

There's like eight lawyers involved. It's like  every time we meet, it's like $3,000. So yeah,   it's a pinch in the beginning, but you can  if anything were that crazy, you address it,   right? Then you move on, right? Usually person  would move on if they had a hearing and people   came forward and said whatever they were going  to say early. So I think what I would say is   that at the end of the day, uh, citizens and  elected officials are allowed to make bad   decisions because that's extremely subjective.  They're not allowed to make illegal decisions.   I I do believe and someone floated this on  because this is kind of self- serving but   someone else suggested it. I don't remember who  it was but one thing that would be I think could   maybe kind of put those buffers up is that you you  can get appointed with a simple majority but it   would require a supermajority to be terminated. So  either four fifths or 57ths depending on you know   um how many then that way you don't just  have you know kind of the the wind of tides.   you really have to have, you know, a really strong  consensus on your elected body to terminate uh a   city manager. I would say that doesn't protect  about against malice because people are political   and people get their arms commissioners  get their arms. But if I'm in my role,   since you asked my opinion, if four out of my  five commissioners want me gone, I don't want   to be here. That's no way to live life in  my opinion. Now, some people may like that,   but I'm not a professional city manager. So, you  know, you got some that move around, you know,   from town to town to town. That's not me. So, I  might not be the best person to speak to this.   Mr. Chairman, I I feel like maybe when this  was written that employment contract weren't   as clear as they are today. I think a lot of  today's employment contracts have clarity on   what does constructive dismissal look like?  Are you at fault or not at fault? What does  

your exit program look like? I think it's not  included standard language if I'm not mistaken. I doubt that there was an employment contract in  1963. I know that Mr. Bryant, he just showed up   in the mid60s and started representing the  city and submitted invoices and they were   paid. That's how Les Burke did it in the uh  mid60s when he became county attorney. There   wasn't an agreement. So there probably wasn't  one for the city manager either. And Brandon,   I think you may that may be why it's  in the charter. I don't I don't Well,   I would strike to remove the removal and trust  whatever's on the part of but I don't I don't   think there's a difference here. You're focusing  on the employment contract part. This is for the   public and the public hearing portion of it.  Like I understand the lab the legal rules of   it. The question here is more this is focused to  the public for their participation in the process.   That's the thing. This is a political question.  It's not so much the legality of the employment   contract because I agree they can do that. But  this is for the public was upset or if there was   something they don't want to see him get fired or  that's what that's what this is all meant to do.   Yes. It's to avoid shenanigans by the commission  and for you to have this public hearing and give   it time so the public can be involved. So it's  a different I think it's a different focus and   I think that's that's why it's in there. Yeah.  And I think the position of the city manager the viewpoint of I don't want to be people  don't want me a majority. Yes. A super   majority. Yeah. But there are communities  that don't have that kind of historical   support. And if there are things in the  history or this that indicate otherwise,  

it would be very important for them to be  able to have that public hearing and for   the citizens to understand shenanigans,  really intentional shenanigans were not   at play because you would have had  the airing out of the problem early. wheels are turning. I mean, you used to serve on a board, sir.  Yeah, but we couldn't remove the Oh, that's   right. Yeah. Well, that's true. But you have  to learn that in court. But, um that in court,   you didn't that wasn't known clearly. That  was that came from in the court orders. The way the government works to my memory in the  city is that when Jonathan was an applicant, there   were more than one applicants and a lot of that  was done in the public. There were 80 applicants.   Yes, sir. And interviews were done somewhat in  the public with the final two or three anyway. So,   if you're going to do it on that end, shouldn't  you have it on this end if the wheels fall off?   But that and that's kind of what what I agree  with JP then then that it is political but this   is a political machine. It really is. But that  hiring process isn't defined in here. Like that   was the process that this commission decided to  take to make it public. But that I mean they have   to make the decision to hire in a public forum  you publicly that they could have interviewed one   because it doesn't say yeah they didn't interview  me publicly and it was a different commission  

different I happen to know that shortly before  um this this position was of similar time but   the beach did the same thing and they yeah I know  you guys start it kind of starts coming when you   start talking about it they did all the interviews  private privately and then at a commission meeting   kind of pat did like a um like a little they  voted ballot that was secret until after it   was announced uh and then those ballots became  part of the public record of the clerk's office   but they there were no public interviews. How was  that permissible under sunshine? You can have them oneonone. They're interviewing. I'm sorry. That  Yes. The interview was not as a singular board out   of the sunshine. They were all five individual uh  separate interviews. I'm sorry. I wasn't clear on   that. Yeah. All five commissioners were there.  Separate. No, no, no. Separate. Five separate   rather than one. Oh, wow. Yes, ma'am. secret.  Typically, it could be it can be done. You put   your name on the ballot and then I think um we  have done in the past then the clerk reads the   Yeah. the the ballot they have on and who voted  for what. So, it all gets into the minutes. It's   all on the record. And then they still have to  make a motion. I motion that we offer the job to,   you know, Miss Skoon because she received three  out of five. Tie every vote to a person analysis.   So, you can't read the votes. Yeah. Read like you  can't read the room. Yeah. And and it I guess the   theory I don't know the theory behind it. But  the theory is you don't watch how the four in   front of you vote. see how you're but after the  fact those ballots are made public record and so   after the fact you can see how the five individual  folks voted there are times when people go public   on their opinion know how they're going to vote  ahead of time you don't may not know see it on  

the ballot but everybody my my two my my two cents  again and I'm pretty good this is not like a hill   that I want to die on if I had my way I would  put a period after city commission I would call   it a day I think this provision is very unlikely  to even come up I think that it turns everything   into a big public spectacle. I think the decision  to terminate the manager would have to happen at   an open meeting anyways. We have language in there  now about adding these things onto the agenda. So,   I think people would have opportunity to see  what was going on and participate in that debate   anyways. And um and so, you know, I don't I don't  I don't think it's necessary, but for real, like   I'm not going to if if everybody else wants to  leave it there. While we're talking about removal   though, because we talked about this issue of  making it a super majority instead of a straight   majority, I'd be far more inclined to do something  like that than this this public I I it just seems   like a public speckle to me. Like this is going to  be a fade to complete. Like if this even comes up,   it's just going to be Is there a position that  anyone has about moving it to do four out of five   votes instead of the three out of five from the  commission? Let's try this. Uh, I make a motion   that section 102 be the city manager shall be  removal by the city by the city commission by a   supermajority vote. period or however you clean  that up and not do supermajority and remove all   that other language because I'm going to and  I know what JP said the business side versus   the political side but I would rather lean on the  contract written for the individual. Can I make a   mention of that too? So that because what you said  um just hold on. Is there a second? I'm sorry. Sorry. No, sorry for interrupt. The uh it was  not my intention to pause that delay. Um the  

uh uh city manager contracts are are typically  written in such a way where there is a it is   costly to terminate uh a a city comm I'm sorry a  city manager. So typically severance uh agreements   that are negotiating the contract upfront can  be pretty lengthy. So there is I mean there is   a guard against that commissioner. I mean it's not  like buying dbo out of his FSU contract. It's you   know it's not that bad but it's you know typically  it's six to eight months maybe potentially even a   year's worth of salary. 20 state law and Texas  has really got it good over there. But um but   there is a cost to terminating a city manager.  Just want to be clear. So you know to I think   the super majority clause covers the need for a  trial or a hearing. You're going to natur you're   going to naturally if you go through this 10 or  15 day process and there's a hearing, you're going   to try to get additional clarity. I think that  compensates for four out of the five are all in a   grant that this needs to happen that it's going  to be contract focused. There's going to be a   payout. It's going to be expensive. Losing a city  manager at any city is going to be a huge blow.   But if the majority of the commission believes  in it, believes and such, then I would say yeah. um based on what I know about another  environment that would the the supermajority would   not fix the problems and people changed what they  were going to do at the very last minute. So if   there's malice and other people feel pressured for  whatever reason there were public statements that   were made about what we're going to do it this  super majority doesn't fix that. So I very much   um think that the supermajority helps but when you  really have bad actors it doesn't. And so I think  

this is the only way to get it done. And in terms  of different communities that have historically   been mistreated, a super minority isn't going to  fix it. It's just going to be the good old boys   did what the good old boys and gals did. This is  the only way to clear the air which is in the long   run better disinfect it like you know sunlight  fix it deal with it early and it shows it shows   some to a certain extent good faith that we're  going to put this out there and the citizens will   know right off the bat what it was all about  and that would just settle a lot of innuendo   concerns historical fears and a lot of things that  would just clean it up JP, I I like them both, but I think I think we've made our points. I'll I'll  call the vote. So, so we're we're voting for both   together, right? So, the five, sorry, the motion  is this to change the language of section 102.   The city manager shall be removable by the city  commission by a supermajority vote and strike   the rest of the paragraph. Super majority is  four out of five. Well, for now there were   seven out of seven if you had Okay. Yeah, Mr.  Chairman, something to just think about the   um you might want to consider adding at the end  of that sentence unless agreed otherwise in the   contract with the city manager. Don't because I'm  think I got my cap on if your contract doesn't I   mean the contract can say for this but what if  they didn't what if all the parties wanted it   to be three? That's my point is that they won't  they wouldn't be able to agree to that. They I  

mean I I thought about that and I I thought  the language would be would be here so that   you cannot cannot contract around that. Well,  yeah, that and I don't think you can. Yeah,   it I guess my point is this. As long as you um  I I believe that if this is in there then all   contracts with the city managers would then be of  four fifths and the parties it'd be difficult to   agree otherwise. That's my point. And as long as  everyone understands that that device I think the   language you know there a lot of lay people that  look at these things they need to understand that   you know that they can't contract out of this.  So with that comment, Ron used to be agreeable to   add in that comma in there. Yes. So I'm not Yeah.  So and I knew I was potentially complicating it,   but the real point was just if this is approved,  I don't think you can contract differently than   what this provides. So any and as long as everyone  understands that, I just that's really my point.   And if you wanted there to be flexibility,  then you'd put a comma and say unless agreed   to otherwise. But I don't think you can agree to  otherwise. If everyone puts in the four, you know,   puts in your unless agree to otherwise, you just  want to say four fifths and that's what it is. Yeah, it it does look like need to be more  clear because a super majority could be 2/3,   35th or 3/4. that pick. Which one? That's why  I was out to be Well, if we increase if it   increases the size later, there's only four people  there that day. That's where I was going. What  

are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. So, a two two motion  fails. Anyway, four motions passed. Three, four to me. So, are you looking super majority of those  present? I mean, yeah, majority is well defined. I   mean in the trim process it's defined too. What  would you defi what do you believe it's defined   as more than more one more than the majority? I  I would agree. One more than a simple majority.   Yeah. Yes. Well defined. I believe is correct.  Yeah. So maybe that should be said one more than   a simple. So that that too because if you only  had four show up then your majority is three   and then one more. That's still four or four or  five. Yeah. If you don't have all five there,   then you would have to have a unanimous to  terminate. But hopefully they would be there   to determinate. Three out of four then instead of  four out of five. And if there's only three there,   it's two out of three out of three. That's true.  That's why you're the numbers person. Yes. It's   it's of those I think my original motion is where  I want to keep it. I agree. I think when I read   this language again, it's it based off of whether  he called the hearing or not. Yes. He doesn't   have to. He doesn't have to. Right. And does that  language need to be in here that guarantees him,   hey, if I want a hearing, I get that. I mean, if  he was being terminated and this wasn't in here,   he could still ask for a hearing on what grounds  if he gets removed. Yeah. I mean, review it or   whatever that would be, but then he wouldn't have  the right to the hearing. You remove it. I mean,   there's not an appeal process. I'm I'm confused  why you would need a hearing with the same board   that terminated your contract. I mean, it's like  of the founders. I don't know. That's whatever   they If all the if you get your public behind you  and the public comes in there and puts a bunch  

of pressure on the board that just fired you,  then they might. So, at least do the changing   may unless they have touch. All right. Hey, hold  on guys. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna be hyper and   basically everyone on that table's not gonna like  this. At a certain point, we got like 12 people   here commenting on policy things. So, like I  I appreciate what y'all are doing. It's it's   great. I don't want to stifle communication, but  like what's we got a lot of people adding in the   comments here. So, as a board, I guess Ron, what's  your motion at this point? The city manager shall   be removable by the city commission by super  majority of vote. Okay. So, that's the same   motion that we had. Any other debate? Otherwise,  I think we can hold the vote. Okay. All right. So,   Jan, you want to call a vote here? Chairman  Burke, do me last. Mr. Panzy, yes. Mr. Ferrer,   yes. Mr. Anderson, Jansenius, yes. Miss Goon,  no. Mr. Burke, yes. Motion passes for all. Okay. Any other city manager related? And just while while we're looking at net and   this is the type of thing like  if you go under number uh 103 section three it called it divisions of municipal government.   It should it should just be city. So look  for the municipal government references to is there a four

have a nothing follow has nothing I don't have the hand out I don't have  the actual you have the multiple disase Thank you. Jake, we're all good. I got it. Good. The  only thing that I want to point out that I   read in here and this kind of also dubtales  and maybe perhaps some of the conversation   that we're going to have clerk also happens to  be under subsection 3 1033 where it says the   manager's duties are to exercise control and  direct supervision over all departments and   divisions. And so I know we've talked a little  bit about what departments roll up to the clerk,   but this certainly contemplates that every  division and department should roll city manage. Yes, that is except hearing. Anything else that wants to  be debated in that section or When we get to it says officers and number  seven says the city commission to keep the   city commission fully advanced as to the  financial condition and needs of the city   number seven and number nine I think that's  some of the duties of the be fully advised   as to the financial condition and needs of the  city and to submit for its consideration budget.   So that's two different I hope number  nine needs all looked at carefully as   it seems to do seven. Yeah. So are you just  suggesting that we separate seven out into  

seven and it may properly Yeah. Yeah. Did  you look at number two? It says officers. Um, Nevin or Jonathan, does subject to civil  service provisions have any weight to it? So, some   of our employees have civil service protection,  but you you don't at the um at this level. I mean,   like at at my level or at So, again, not a little  question. Is that that's a necessary phrase? It   is. Yes, it's it's a statement of fact. It does  not mandate that there be a civil service but but   then the next thing remove all subordinate  officers as we're saying if the commission   creates additional officers I would strike that  officers the the clarity behind officers to be   charter officers only in the entire charter and  remove officers from every other language except   charter officers. So it would be subordinate and  employees of the city no longer thing the two I'm with you. I think I'm with you on  spirit trying to think how to how to Is   there a thing that's going on right now  such a thing as a subordinate officer?   No. I would agree if you just strike  officer's hand that makes subordinate   employees the only ones have the  authority to fire anyway. Okay. We just need to take officers to make a motion for that and JP seconds and

then um Brandon I think you were suggesting  another motion to separate seven to keep the   city commission fully advised as to the  financial condition and needs of the city   period and then a new section 8 that says to  submit It states we have a city commission   consideration of an annual budget. A second for  that second debate all favor. And then Cecilia,   you wanted to talk about nine. Um, approve all  vouchers. Does it came in the same? I thought   I heard testimony or comments earlier  that that approving of of vouchers and   things is something the city clerk did.  That would be similar to purchase order. They have to be approved by the city manager  or his or her team be that is different than   actually being paid out. That's a two-step  process. Basically, they don't even make it   to the clerk without you saying go for it. That  is correct. And then again at certain thresholds,   Mr. Chair. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's  covered by the last sentence at nine. I read that.   Who appoints assistant city manager? Is that  appointment by you? And then the board directs   that we have two based off of your financial  planning. They don't they don't they approve   the budget. They approve. They don't they don't  set number of directors or anything like that. My only suggestion for nine,  I know I'm down in the weeds,   right? I like the very very last line of  nine where it says regulations. I just   didn't like the word regulations. I would  prefer to say ordinances, policies, but you do a search for the word because we don't have I'm, as you guys can tell, I'm really really anal  about like consistent terminology and so all of a  

sudden we use Yeah. No, it does because  later on there's regulations. Why is it   they say what they I would recommend it just  we change regulations. That's what we know.   Is it I mean that's what I mean right Evan is  is a regulation something different that state   statutes could it be state statute policies or  sorry because they're not all just I'm thinking   about purchasing policies adopted by resolution  not ordinance there there are purchases that are   dictated the procedures dictated by state  statute and Florida administrative code in   some instances. So I I don't I don't know  for sure if that's what regulations mean,   but it's but here it says regulations as a city  commission time to time prescribe. I guess they   could say make sure you follow state law. I don't  can you just clarify that? Yes, but it says I mean   I had written in here regulations or common  ordinances or policies as the city commission   but let's look at that and we'll give you a  suggestion. Anything else substantive on nine? Anything else substantive on city manager at all? If I may, the uh there was discussion like earlier  I thought about the residency requirement marrying   the city attorney and apparently it was never  actually voted on. So it does not show up in   this red line, but we can put it in the minutes.  What remind me right now the the city attorney   needs to be an elector of the city city manager  it's on FL it says he need he or she need not  

be a resident at the time of appointment and  it does not say if ever yes so there was some   discussion but apparently it was never we didn't  anyway Caroline did you never got swell over the   you had requested that they all be the same that  they got the same requirements that was provided   um some sample language to do that was  provided in the January 20th memo and you   discussed it but didn't vote on it there's a  little discussion we can include that on the   next draft and you can look at it and then  you could take action I just I like me I   didn't see it so I wonder what happened and so  the chapter are we ready to vote on that now?   There a disagreement about the residency  requirement? I think we agreed we're Oh,   we did. We agreed these should be rented in the  city, right? I believe we spoke, Mr. Chairman,   about adding what the beach does clarity  to it where but within six months of the   appointment shall become one. And I think that's  the advantage that is the purpose behind it that   the beach figured out and I guess we didn't in  the 60s was you may hire someone that lives say in   like Memphis and obviously at the time of getting  the appointment they don't live in the city but   within six months of receiving that they need to  be from city which I would argue is appropriate just I just didn't want us to skip over we can  provide some language if you can look on that is   Where are we at with what the language is that  we want that kept it provided within six months   of similar to the attorney thing sounds I can  read the language that was provided to you in   the January 20th bring everyone up to speed.  Um, so this is added. The city manager shall   establish residence within the corporate  limits of the city of Panama City, Florida,  

and shall become a qualified elector 6 months  after his or her appointment, though he or she   need not be a resident of the city or the state at  the time of his or her appointment. I think that's   great. I motion we adopt that language. Yeah, I'll  second. All right. Any other debate? All in favor?   Thank you. Was that just for the city  manager? Yes. There's um you had asked   to make all three of the officers  consistent and so there's some   um tweaking of some of the language to try  to do that. Again, that's in the January 201. Any other considerations regarding  city manager in article 7? done with an article out of the hot seat. We didn't say we could change our  minds anybody behavior. Very very true,   sir. Very true. All right. Article eight. So initially I would want I like the consistency  if we can carry over that same consistency from   article 7 into article 8. We start with  appointment if there is a compensation   clause or removal clause powers and duties but  we carry over that same consistency. Yes. into   all of the charter positions. I agree. The  appointment being the same language that you   Yes. So I can read to you the language that  was provided for to you in the memo if you'd   like me to. This we're talking about Brandy  talking specifically about setting it up the  

same way we did the city manager. Yeah, not  specific. No, Brandon is suggesting that we   have basically section whatever 104 is going  to be the appointment to administrative officer   qualifications. And then the next section be  well not compensation because we've already   covered that and then a section on removal  and then a section on powers and duties. Yes,   we need to add the qualification for the attorney  though. That's agreed. Well, that's already   section 105 up to 104. But what I'm saying  is that you know there isn't a qualification   part of city manager. There has to be one city  attorney. That's the one thing that won't be for okay just for clarification. Oh Jesus and Evan  Caroline uh 105. The city attorney shall be an   attorney of at least five years experience and  admitted to practice in all courts of this state   of this state. Does that include federal courts?  Does this technically a federal court is not a   court of the state? It is in the state but it's  not of the state. I think they're saying you   could change that to good standing good, you  know, a member of good standing in the Florida   bar. I think that's what the induction is there.  I think that's admitted to practice in all courts.   There are lawyers who've been here and they  just push paper. They are not admitted to the   practice of the courts. I understand. That's But  I think that's why I'm suggesting we can change   the language to be a member in good standing  of a Florida bar. But that doesn't allow you   to practice in all the courts like federal  court. It's in the state. I I I could care   less. I could care less. I could care less if  they've been admitted to the Southern District  

of Florida. Yeah. Oh, it says all courts of  the state. No, we wouldn't care about I just   my point is I think this needs clarification  because it's kind of broad. I think I mean   JP I mean think just saying good standing with  the Florida bar because you can practice law in   the state of Florida state of Florida and have  been admitted to practice at least five years.   That's the standard for judges in any appointment  right now. Some are 10 but most are five bas in state court. I don't practice in federal  court. Yeah. I guess from my comment is and I've   been exposed to a lot of different attorneys with  a lot of different backgrounds really smart and   there's a really big difference of the accurity  understanding of potential litigation if someone   has practiced actually gone to court versus  someone who's just sitting behind the desk and   talking to the client in terms of understanding  I I just think that's an important component that   the attorney have that background ground. I'm just  saying I agree with you 100% from a hiring factor.   But as far as a disqualification factor, I think  as long as they're admitted to practice in the   state of Florida, that's fine. Whether they want  to say, I want somebody to have trial experience,   municipal experience, that's that's a commission  decision. But the minimum bar is admitted to   practice in the state of Florida. I don't care  if you've been admitted to the northern district,   middle district, southern, whatever. As long as  you can go to Bay County Courthouse, I'm good.   Are we good with that? So does it I mean in all so  does it I mean so it needs to be changed because   that's not what it says what it says is not what  you know yeah JP you want to make a motion I make   a motion that section 105 be amended to what  city attorney shall be an attorney admitted   yeah to the practice for at least five years in  good standing with the Florida bar but what about   when he said he wanted someone to be able to go  up county hold on if If you're in my understanding  

is if you're in good standing, you can go to  court. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Those are Yeah,   that's true. You just couldn't go to federal  court, right? Which isn't we don't have a say. You can I'll second. Any other debates? Are you  leaving out qualified elector of the city? Well,   isn't that going to be part of the  I'm just trying to figure out where   where that's going to go. Are we Are  we going to have the same language in   That's what I thought. Okay, that's  good. So, that would be the same. I I'm I'm convinced. All right. So, we have a  debate. All right. All in favor? I No opposed.   All right. Um Okay. I I have a question  since I have a room full of attorneys.   This says Rick that the city's going to um  appoint a city attorney. Is that an individual   or is that a firm? It's an individual. How is  that really handled? It's it's an individual.   It's an individual. We there is we have a there is  a contract with me and also with Burke Blue. And   the way it's structured in the contract is that  Burke Blue is the support staff or you know the   supporting attorneys for the city attorney this  time. Okay. Yeah. I mean I had a couple things I   think all kind of work together having the same  thing. on was you have one one chest to poke   that's an actual the the city attorney just like  there was a clerk and and a and a city manager   but then also just the the demands of the city  go far beyond what one person can professionally   do and also have hours in a day to do and so I  also didn't know if we need to contemplate the  

ability to also engage either other council or  a firm or something along those lines. I mean,   I was thinking more like I'm sure there's  instances where the city don't they I mean,   they hire other firms besides there got to be  some specialty if there's like a bond issuance   or something like that you're hiring. We have  we have FEMA counsel, we have bond counsel,   we have employment law attorneys, we have,  of course, with our insurance, the insurance   company provides counsel. Do you simply just view  that as the city's just hiring other vendors?   I do and we do it very same concept with engineers  sir we do we have different engineers that are got   special nuance things and and you know whether  it's a special issue or it's a bandwidth issue   we bring we bring in outside uh professionals in  a myriad of different fields not just law okay   um who oversees that like if we was that oversaw  by the attorney charter position well the any type   of contract with them it would go through both  the city manager's office and the city attorney's   office but the CCNA the uh consultants competitive  consultants competitive negotiation act gives   the flexibility to uh you know to hire different  engineers however they to go on the list uh they   have to they have to go through the commission and  be approved uh it's a little bit different with   the attorneys um I mean I think we just see we  can hire different firms if we want and and they   are hired by the city commission not all of them  are paid by the city commission for example the   insurance company when they appoint an attorney  uh we accept them and then they're paid for by the   insurance company. So everything doesn't kind  of in the year like does do you get a W2 from   the city? No. Okay. So that all it goes to the  firm. Yes. It's all driven by the contract. Got  

our charter has him listed as the charter officer.  Correct. Correct. Employed by Berkeley. We pay B. Yeah. Um there's I had I had some proposed language  in here about engaging outside firms. So that   sounds like it's totally covered. Is it again  not a loaded question. Is it necessary and does   it actually happen that the attorney endorses  every contract for a purchasing policy? Yes,   sir. It's two things. Uh we do try to endorse  every contract. Let me sign it. I I just mark   approval approved as correctness. Yeah. Right.  But but our our purchasing policy which was   adopted by the commission through resolution. So  just one votes. It's not legally required except   by the charter. No. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's a policy  issue whether it makes sense or not that that I I   was just really just noodling on whether or not  it needs to go in the charter or not. You know,   if you have an internal policy that says the  city attorney reviews everything and actually   literally endorses it. Obviously, I think it's  good practice that the city attorney review   everything for sure. But I just know if it becomes  administratively burdensome that every time you   guys have a contract, you got to go get in front  of an evident and have the answer is yes to both   of those though. It it does. I mean, it definitely  takes longer for an attorney to review it, but at   the same time, I feel like, you know, that it's  it's there's a level of checks and balances. And   I Yeah. It's not just contracts, it's agreements,  leases, and so all of those. And the assistant   like Natalie, she'll sign off under my authority.  So it's not doesn't have to be also and I I put a   pin in this but we probably need similar language  about delegation of city attorney authority as  

well. Like if Evan can't go to a meeting just  like we have city manager if we put that in the   charter. Okay. Something similar to that. Let  me make a stab at that. Probably you just use   the exact same language. Pretty darn similar.  You said it was listed on the contract. Yeah,   it's in the it's in our contract. But I can let  me I can but if we have these charter officers and   then we have a provision to say if the charter  officer can't be there then they can delegate   it and we have it in the charter for the manager  and the clerk. It should be the same thing for the   attorney. We can make that obviously. All right.  I don't care. I'm not signing stuff. I'm not doing   those other stuff. But if you guys are telling  me as administration that that little little bit   of friction is probably a good thing and it's  and it's not that big of a deal, then leave   it alone. What the hell% Yeah. Do you guys have  any strong feelings discovered? I think it's then anything else about city attorney then. Did   y'all handle the residency part?  Yes. Similar. Same thing. I guess the next draft will happen. Yeah. super love that. But I don't have good reason  why not other than the number of attorneys to   draw from that live in the city limits is not  many. What did you say? I I didn't hear you. I   said the number of attorneys that live in the  city limits is not many. I mean I think like   literally I think I think there's three attorneys  that live in Linhaven. Like if you look up their   address I mean it's like Alopka and a couple  others and that's it. And I'm I'm just it's   great with Nevin. You live in the city, right? Or  don't. Yeah. I'm just I think if you truly looked   at how many members of the Florida Bar reside in  Panama City, it's probably like 20. But I mean, if  

that's whatever Well, you move you can move there  within six months. Like if you hire somebody,   you're good. That's I'll just I do. But I do see  your point. If they live in Linhaven, are really   going to make a move to MLC. But it's not a hill  I want to die on, but one of these things I just   know. I mean, the the total number of members  of like the Bay County Bar is I know 200ish,   right? And so you boil that down to the beach  and Linhaven and rural areas and Callaway and   Parker and next thing like if you're literally  looking at who resides within Panama City, it's   just not not a deep bench. But I mean, it doesn't  turn over city attorneys very often either. All right. What else about city attorney? So now we talk about the clerk. I'll start  wherever you want. I'm in front of the click. Let's vote on something  forum. So the forum right here. The clerk 122 yet.

All right. All right. Did we ever find out why   there's so much underneath of  this one? Historical science. So, I like the data that pulled. I thought this  was very interesting. So, I did burn a fat GBT   and ask for some like guidance. Um, what it said  was most out of the city manager system or the   council manager system, it is split. Going back  to city clerk versus the financial component. As   we go back to the city manager side, we see that  finances initially rolled up under city manager.   Anyhow, I still go back towards moving the city  clerk company to city manager. Looks like 60% of   all of the cities that have the city system that  we have with the population that we have does have   the same model that the public participant email  offices. I'd like to propose kind of a little bit   of a middle ground because I'm I'm with you on  I think the finance stuff should be moved like   Terry Zemo was talking about kind of splitting  the roles. I think it's just too many roles for   the city clerk. I don't know how we do that if  we do that in the charter if that's something   that has to be done later internally but I think  it's just the final role I like to keep the clerk   position as a charter spot to have some of the  duties and delegations of that finance department   be moved under the city man I think that kind of  solves the problem but still keeps that check and   balance of the clerk. So what duties does that  leave the clerk more spelled out what yeah what   Gary was discussing there I'm not exactly sure of  finer details there but some of the conversations   about you know the fact that you have finance  people who come here and then have to learn  

how to be the get the certifications to be a city  clerk I'm just curious what or vice versa what are   the if I could if you could go over what are the  main things that you would do outside of finance   the city clerk uh the The city clerk prepares the  agendas and the minutes um for all the meetings,   advertises all the meetings, um does the public  records, fulfills a public records request,   um manages the all the board, city boards,  uh their liaison too. About how many boards?   About 10 20 boards. That's a lot. How many?  20. It's maybe 20 or 25 for those boards,   the notices. Yeah. The agendas, the minutes, the  notices for all the board meeting. And are you   also responsible for finding where they would  meet? The boards. They're kind of preset where   they meet. Yeah. and when they meet. But that's  the board's board's each board's decision to to   come up with when uh just like you guys  made your schedule when you want to meet. So the Coral Springs model has the charter  positions are the city attorneys manager and   internal. Yep. Yeah, we talked about that. And  then it looks like they do have three assistant   or deputy city managers. You look underneath  of that, there's the budget and sustainability   director that's kind of standalone our decision  manager. The city clerk is more like the records   keeping side of the world or the the agenda. They  actually fall underneath the AW which two teachers   under the city manager. So I actually kind of  like this model. I like that finance, budget,   and sustainability still rolls up underneath  the city manager, but they keep that a little  

bit separate even down to performance management,  which may be an HR function. But I do like I don't   know what our current model is. Do our assistant  city or assistant city managers have departments   that roll? They they're split. So the CRA to  your point, sir, yes. If we move the clerk,   which is more the records and the minutes and that  type of stuff underneath the city manager, I would   put that primary responsibility underneath one of  the two ACMs, that clerk would not report directly   to me. Okay. Finance, budget, and sustainability  could have a director similar to the Coral Springs   model that would still roll up directly under city  manager. It could. And that's the city manager. You know what's interesting about the the Coral  Springs thing is I actually pulled their charter,   looked up the internal auditor, and there's very  little in their charter about what the internal   auditor actually does. Now, I didn't get to a  point to see if it's established by ordinance   or whatever, but it it's there. But it's kind  of I mean, I have language check handed out,   but it's it's uh may point at any time an internal  auditor. Internal auditor shall be an individual   who's a licensed CPA or business entity consisting  of a licensed CPAs to advise the commission on   matters affecting municipal finance and other  matters prescribed by general or special law   or otherwise as directed by the commission each  year they should evaluate whether or not they   need an internal auditor period and I like there  got to be I mean I searched internal auditor did   the whole you know charter meeting code whatever  it is that was there's one other reference under   fire that had nothing like project hire we hired  them once a year to do the audit and I keep them   on payroll here. Oh, awesome. Okay, fair enough.  Yeah, that's as far as I got. I didn't get down to   the sector. Um I mean when I'm when I'm hearing  those clerk duties about noticing and meetings   and things like that, I mean to me that just  very naturally falls under a city manager like   umbrella. Not the city manager job, but umbrella.  And then but I I still really like the idea of a  

degree of independent financial oversight.  is that auditor role or somebody else who   looks at the budget and looks at what what what's  happening and can advise the commission without   fear of recourse from anybody else. So it could  be sort of the same thing in inverse. We move the   notice duties under city manager and we keep the  finance duties under the city clerk. Yes. I'm much   more right. That's kind of the way I imagine it.  Yeah. Uh yeah. Big ticket issue is a second set   of eyes on the money. ton of money. That's that's  really my concern. I feel like that's where the   auditor comes in though. They are a clean set  of eyes and if they are hired at project base,   not at a salary base, you've got the city  manager is accountable for budget execution,   right? A second set of eyes just comes in to make  sure we're he's delivering on that. But when it   comes to like who's accountable, are we going  to have what we have now? We have two people   where a city clerk treasurer which is already hard  enough to staff as it is reports on finances when   our city manager is accountable for it. So he be  the voice that's reporting on it and then we just   have an auditor as needed. And so I'm not sorry  but I don't think there's any diff any different   from the point that we were just talking about  where city manager does the contract with the   city attorney is a second set of eyes. It's just  the equivalent on the monies. So I don't I don't   that's kind of what I envision. I don't see a  problem with that being a charter officer. That's   the But should it be a charter officer or should  it be like this one where there's a director of   budget and sustainability? I think there needs it  needs to be a charter officer to for the checks   and balance issue. That's sort of where I think  it's the same thing like that's the reason the   city attorney won't do it. It's the same thing.  She's reviewing city clerk is reviewing the form   and what was it the form and whatever of the  correctness correctness of the charges I think   it's it's the kind of the same thing just on the  other side but the form and the correctness of the  

charges rolls under the city manager or that's  an independent no it would be the that's what I   do that's that's what the city clerk or this new  I think you know finance director or whatever or   auditor whatever we want to call it but that's  what the city clerk that's what the city clerk I I don't have a lot of heartburn over whoever  dots the eyes and crosses the tees and cuts the   checks roll up to the city manager. Where  I'm looking at it is there's independent   financial oversight. And I'm really bad about  the terminology and perhaps more comproller   auditor CFO. I I don't appreciate what the  differences are. But but what I'm thinking   is when I hear auditor, I I tend to think of  they look at what happened and go backwards.   Where I'm I'm looking at somebody who can look  at what the overall financial picture of the   the municipality is and say, "Hey, commission,  your manager spending money from sailor. Y'all   are going to run out of money and not hear  recourse from the manager that wait a second,   we're doing all these good things." Like they have  this independent oversight that can help look more   sort of flow. But maybe I'm conflating terms.  I think that's part of the problem is figuring   out the term and then figuring out the duties. I  think the question is going to be how we slice the   duties. If I may slight difference I think between  what you're asking or considering to do with the   CFO or internal or whatever you call so the policy  says in regards to the attorney all contracts,   leases and agreements regardless of amount  must be reviewed by the purchasing division,   the city attorney or designate and the city  manager or designate prior to signature.   Now I Nevin can review it but he does I don't  have to have his approval to to authorize that   contract. So it's more of a council thing. So  there's not l say so if we have a disagreement for   something he doesn't like but I'm good with it. I  legally I could sign the contract. I think it's a   little bit different when you're talking about  some financial controls like should I be able  

to tell should the person in my position be able  to tell you know the one that hits enter on the   checkbook or the cash flow out. I don't care what  you think. Pay it anyway. I think that's a little   bit different than a potential contract. So, just  something y'all consider as y'all deliberate this. Well, I agree with what Brandon is saying. Who who  and this is a question for staff. who checks to   make sure that there's not like fraud going on or  that actually the things that are being purchased   are being purchased or that actually things  are going through the formality of the correct   purchase orders and approvals. Is that is that an  auditor? Is that multiple people? Yeah, it's it's   really the spec it's the director and the ACM over  that particular department. It's the purchasing   division and it's the last stop is Jan's office.  Accounting. Accounting. Okay. And then is there a   third party that ever comes in and does that  stuff too? We have an auditor every year. External. So external auditor. Yeah. It's  a local law firm that comes in. But they   basically look at the documents that you  provide them. They don't hunt around. No,   they're not look they are they do fraud. They do  fraud questionnaires of individuals that are in   the city, but they are not specifically looking  for or seeking out uh evidence of fraud. So,   misfeases really, let's say something is $1,000.  So, that would not have to come through myself or   the city manager's office at all, but the  director would have to approve it and the   um and the purchasing division has to sign  off on it and Jan has to sign off on it. So,   even a small transaction like that is going to  have three key people kind of looking at it. How   do you know if it's a legitimate uh purchase?  When I find things that I question, I bring  

them to the manager's attention. And then who who  oversees revenue generation that taxes are being   collected and people are paying and all that good  stuff? Accounting. Yeah, the accounting that's   that falls under you as well. The accounting  division under the city clerk treasur's office.   look at it in the budget office. Yeah. And and Jan  does a monthly financial. Yeah. And I mean, this   is just kind of for me, business 101. I mean, I I  I like I use the chest to poke, you know, the the   neck to choke, the chest to poke. Like ultimately,  who's the one who's accountable for that thing?   And I I'm not disagreeing with you guys. It's  great to have multiple checks and balances,   but ultimately it needs to be one person that you  can look at and be like, what's going what's going   on here? And then ultimately, it sounds like right  now it's the clerk. When all said and done, that's   the final step that authorizes cash flow out from  the city. I would say that's where the buck stops. How often do you have questions for the  department heads and um every week? Usually   I have some questions about um invoices. Um but  it's mostly pro procedural. On occasion, there are   um purchases that I don't think are appropriate.  And the reason why I don't take them to the   department head is because I the department head  doesn't report to me. I take them to the manager   because the the department heads report to the  manager. But you're you're the canary in the   coal mine and you say, I feel funny and this is  Yeah. Or I mean that I would say that it happens,   but that's rare. Most of the time it's like hey  did you are you aware of this charge or did you   app you or Brandy or Jared authorize this and  because it's would be something that we would   need to authorize as a CMO but most of most of  the purchases are clearly spelled out in our   purchasing policy and procedures made I mean  we we cut between two to 300 checks a week in  

the payables and Jan reviews every single one  of those with the supporting documentation.   Mean, can y'all look as we're talking  under article 13? Is is it is it maybe   I'm missing? I didn't read it before, but  very closely. Is all of that sort of book,   recordkeeping, notices, meeting minutes,  all that other stuff. Is that provided in   here as a clerk responsibility? Anyways,  so let's keep going and y'all tell me. So, Ron, where are you now? on the division  of the duties. I haven't left that. Um I think they ought to be separated. Um sorry,  which duties? Chief financial officer and a clerk.   They're two different things to me. If if but  if the budget allows it to be another individual   because we have one doing it all now kind of sort  of one's responsible, let's put it that way. um I don't know how much what am I about to say here  the duties of the clerk of minute taking and all   that should not be a CPA somebody doing that  work to me should not be a chief financial offic organizational chart to um even though  she delegates it presently still I think   that's down in the organizational chart  where a CFO may be you know a charter   position clerk just the clerk not so so  if you if we continue on with that CFO   term what would their ultimate responsibility  be or what would their primary responsibility

Well, from the business world, that would  be anything that's a financial I mean,   I still struggle with the It works  well with these two. But you have   a somebody hired by the commission that  the city manager butts heads. You know,   you that's going to happen one day on  August 11th. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so That's not bad. So, you know, I still have  a struggle with that. Um, but that's just my   my business side of me, you know. Um, but the CFO  position would be to me every everything financial   would fall under the CFO, including the budget  if you were going to do it. Everything. I mean,   approval would still be by the commission,  but the proposal Yeah. I'm sure this and   I'm sure the charter officers will work  together on it, but I'll share data. Um,   I think it's interesting if you go to page two  here, you look at the finance director reports   to just about all of the cities locally that  are listed here. That's the CFO reports to CEO he has to execute. Now all the departments have   to do it too but one person that's  accountable from the city of city but the finance side supports where  I think we're the only ones that say   uh Tallahassee is as well commission  position combined with the cler just   all these other cities has  a rolled up to the city. Yeah, I I like the idea that they're being  designed friction to spending money that that   that the the payable system and the checking to  make sure the integrity of the invoices and stuff   are accurate rolled under somebody else who's uh  independent from the city manager because um we  

get to the point we have to say this. I trust  Jonathan here, but there's a there's a natural   political tendency to want to spend money. Like  people are very happy when you spend money and   they're unhappy when you don't spend the money.  like it's just a natural thing to so have somebody   who's independent of being like listen like I know  this is important but we still have to follow the   process and the formalities and I don't answer to  you I answer to the commission and there's a lot   of value there well anything that would anything  that's outside of the approved budget has to go   to the commission and get a budget amendment even  if it's $1 which comes through you well it goes   through the commission yeah it comes through you  right you got to presenter correct yeah I would   not advance it unless myself if unless I agreed  with So yeah, so but at the same time you can move   money inside. That is correct. There's a lot a lot  of liberties inside the budget as what category   buy whatever you want. The only the only the only  thing I would have y'all consider during that is   I think you know that get kind of a two-way street  like um it would be very like if I wanted to move   budget if I wanted to move money appropriately  within my budget like I would say respectfully   I don't think the CFO should have a say in that  because he or she's not the one that's answering   for the operational requirements and I tell you  we get hundreds of requests every day to do stuff   for the citizens and business of Panama City  and um I think that that could create unhealthy   friction if you've got someone that doesn't have  to answer for the operational responsibility of   the city. Uh tying the hands of someone that does  again operating within the appropriate you know   budget constraints emergency repair was under city  manager and the pay accounting is under the clerk   pressure. So you could have that. There would be  there would be no reason to question whether if   it's an internal transfer, right? There would be  no the only thing that I ever question is if it's   coming from personnel. Yeah, because personnel is  going to run through the budget whether it's the   money's there or not because you got to have  the spot approved and everything. All right,  

so let's do this. I mean, Ron, you've got a hard  out at 215. I mine's not a super hard out at two,   but it kind of is. Um, do we have any guidance  for staff on language or do we have we still   debating those? I think it might be helpful  to sort of get a general sense of where each   of us is and so it's sort of a majority thing to  ask for that comment. All right, go forth. Um I   um liking what you had said earlier with  their finance be completely separate on   the same level so that there's no no way that  anyone can say there's conflict or they feel dur I'm I'm willing to redefine the notices and the  rest of that to come out of city clerk. I think   Ron, you had the comment. I agree that's pretty  administrative and that's not something she has   to do or that position has to do. But I I I  like keeping the term city clerk because our   citizens are accustomed to that and we just  redefine the take a small piece of it off and   leave you with our biggest concern which is what  you've been doing would be my feel. Agree. Yeah,   I agree. The only thing there that the  the administrative side of it all has much   legal requirements, right? So that's just  part of it just to make that point. Yeah,   I think keep the position whatever we want  to call it. I think it needs to remain an   independent charter position and we need to split  the duties off and cut those through where I am. I can go back to you. Well, I think my  opinion will change if you come back to me,  

but um it's it's just my CEO mentality that  I want my CFO under me. That's that's just   my mentality. Now, does that work  in the city? It does some places,   you know, but I'm I'm like you said  earlier, I'm not willing to die on   that heel if you know if we think that  that needs to be charter positioned. Um, there are other checks and balances you could  put in if it was with the city manager, but at the end of the day, the city manager  has the accountability and that's why   I would prefer it be a CFO position  be under the count the city manager. 100%. Yeah, I'm I'm in the camp of having  an independent charter officer that just   deals with money, money in, money out, and  making sure that the integrity of the money   out process is sound and then also just kind  of reviews the budget versus actuals and and   can independently advise the commission if there's  irregularities or any of that type of stuff. And   then all of the administerial uh non-money  things, the meeting minutes, the notices,   the recordkeeping, whatever else that rolls up  into some direct report somewhere underneath the   chain of command that goes up to the management.  I would be more I would have I would be happy of   being a part of position that's on the books  full-time. um a CFO could be or a CPA whatever   that turns into that should be giving our city  manager oversight insight into the financial   health of the city and then he reports directly  to the city commission. I think that we could  

hire this internal auditor and be much cheaper  and have a much trust more trusted process than   having a full-time CFO that is a peer to the CEO  of the city. I I can tell you that independent   auditor is not it that you hire sporadically is  not going to be cheaper than a full-time person.   We pay more for our audit, our annual audit.  Finishes comment. I'm sorry. It's not going   to be cheaper. She's part of it. I think I'm  open to hearing that. Yeah, it it's not. Our   independent audit is more than I'm making a year.  Um and they're here for three weeks. All right.   Why don't we noodle over these things? We'll  come back. When are we coming back, Jonathan? 45th, right? That sounds  right. I think I would like and then Jan, if you happen to still have our  proposed schedule, what were we going to do after? It's actually not till March 26th. If if  y'all want to add ads in 5th, we could,   but there's nothing between now and the 26th.  Just FYI. I'm not available on the Sorry,   I know I said the day. I thought we had a meeting.  I know. I'm sorry. I thought we did, too. Jonathan I apologize. We do have it on the fifth. I don't  know why my my computer for my We do. It's the 5th   and the 26th, sir. Apologies. Yeah, those are  previously scheduled and noticed meetings. The   5th and the 26th. What were we going to get to  after officers? So, I don't have the fifth. Oh,   after officers, manager of police protection,  fire protection, finance generally, taxation,  

public utilities, boards, and commissions. not  necessarily and that'll but um we've already done   the officers, the manager, the attorney, and  I guess we'll finish up the city clerk. Yeah,   I probably won't be available on the 5th because  I know that causes a further deadlock on the clerk   issue, but um they'll be I'll be in pile that day.  And just a quick mention on the police protection   thing. I've been asked by my office not to comment  and vote on any of the things that have to do with   the police here in town. And I consulted with  the Florida Bar and they asked me also not to   vote on anything regarding police protection.  So if I'm not going to be here on the 5th,   you may want to you may want to take that up  just as a suggestion because I can't vote on   those things anyway. Are you allowed  to comment? Uh to an extent that's my   guidance from the Florida Bar and my office.  Same thing doesn't apply with fire though,   right? I'm okay with fire. I just can't  do touch anything having every day. So, shall I put that on the next agenda?  Because I know we're at three we're 32   on the clerk and I probably again  I I can't be here on the fifth. Perhaps we can do police first next meeting.  Okay. I reviewed it at one point months ago   and I didn't see like massive issues with it.  But but we can let's do police first and then   would you all be open to doing like should should  we not do finance taxation and bonds together? Wouldn't finance bring us back to  the division of duties? Yeah. I   think I think clerk finance taxation and  bonds kind of all work together. Yeah.   So y'all So let's if y'all are okay with it, let's  plan on getting uh article 11, which is police  

protection, and then we'll wrap up hopefully.  Clerk, wait. But you're that's what he was. Yeah,   I got you. Thanks. He was saying that he would  be where you' be tied to two if I wasn't here.   want to do the other four. Fire, public  utilities, and boards of the mission. Why don't we do police, fire? What did you  say? Public utilities. Yeah. Commissions. Okay. Do you have the brief? And you  could. Yeah, I could read through that   and send some of your thoughts for us to  share with the board as they deliberate. If if we really had to if you had a break during  the files like recess, read the text and we could   do have a zoom and then we can vote. The zoom  is always he could hop on and off very easily. I think they break. We'll have someone go pull the fire alarm. So,  you know, during the break since the Zoom is all Thank you guys. Is there anything else  or can we entertain a motion regard? All favor. Thank you. But